Gaming The System - The Feminist Gaming Podcast

235 - Antagonists: Beyond the Obvious (Part 1)

• Gaming The System - The Feminist Gaming Podcast

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Antagonists aren’t just moustache-twirling masterminds—they’re the blizzard that buries you, the friend who calls your bluff, the code of honour that trips your hero. In the first half of our conversation, Matt, Jem, and Alex debunk the myth that antagonists are inherently evil and explore every flavour of narrative resistance, from tragic rivals to the environment itself.

Antagonist ≠ Villain 

Sentience is over-rated?

We talk God of War, The Last of Us Part II, Uncharted 4, Dragon Age: Inquisition and Resident Evil: Village.

Grey zones, tropes and predicatability.

Frameworks for building memorable foes in games, film and fiction

Hit Play to explore why antagonists may be the real game heroes — and come back next week for Part 2.

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Speaker:

Hello everyone. Welcome back to another episode of Gaming the System, the podcast where three intersectional feminists examine gaming and games through a feminist lens. Today I am your host, Matt, and I'm joined by my friends Alex and Gem. Before we get started, if you want to support us, you can subscribe to our Patreon at patreon.com/gaming system for some exclusive content. Or you can send us a one-off donation via PayPal to our email address. We are gaming the system@gmail.com.

Matt:

Today we are going to be talking about what should be the characters that make the games most exciting, which is the antagonists. We are the agonist and the antagonist, the person that is working against us in some form. So I thought we'd start off by looking at what do we, define as an antagonist?

Alex:

That's a good question that I actually had to have a little help from our friend Google, because I always assumed it was more of a villain, and we all know what a villain is, but actually the two are distinct. an antagonist is someone who the protagonist or say the main character, presumably, that you'd be playing, but doesn't necessarily mean that they're evil or that they'll stop at nothing to stop the protagonist. They might end up being a sort of, reluctant ally some such other manifestation, but they are not the same as a villain. So it really helped to double check that. Just to get some clarity.'cause I'd always merge the two terms together in my head. So this will be a really interesting episode to explore definitely. And to see the differences between those character traits, and how they, show up in gaming.

Jem:

So can a antagonist be a villain? For a villain, be an antagonist, or are they two completely separate roles? I came across the same definition yeah. That just makes me wonder whether that they can be one and the same, or if they're just completely different

Matt:

This is where it gets, it's interesting. It becomes a, it comes a thing of philosophy because antagonists, so the, in, physiology, the, an antagonizing muscle is the one that works against the. Agonizing muscle. So if you take it as simple as in in terms of what the actual words mean, the protagonist is always you.'cause it's you taking action to do things. And anything that works against you in any way is an antagonist. But not all antagonists are villains. Whereas I suppose all villains are antagonists because they have to be.'cause what? You can't have a villain who? That's where it gets interesting. Can you have a villain who wants the same things that you do, but does it differently? Will come onto some, things about antagonists that we find compelling in a moment. I originally started this episode as, an episode about villains and then all of this was coming from the perspective of asking about villains. But then I thought, oh, I should probably mention antagonists as well. And then quickly realized, oh, antagonists are far more interesting than a villain is'cause a villain. That is a very loaded term for this is the evil person, this is the bad guy, this is the force of evil that we're fighting against. Whereas it's far more interesting if in say, got a war Ragner rock, you've got Freya and she is a massive antagonist at the start. And, but she's not a villain. She's not conventionally evil. It's, there's a lot more gray area when it comes to antagonist, which is why I think it's. I think it's a more interesting way to approach it.

Jem:

They definitely are morally gray. And I was thinking about, like Joel in the last of us two, not one, but in two. When you think of him from Abby's perspective, he absolutely is the, an antagonist. And, and I think so, somebody can actually be, an antagonist and a, I dunno, an ally, in, in the same story, but when you look at it from different perspectives, and I think that's quite fun actually. And, I got a quote here from the craft of writing for games by Anna, McGill. And, she said that the antagonist isn't always a person, sometimes it's the world itself. So I don't know if that, it could be all sorts of things. It could be the weather or it could be, climate change or the, the planet. So I suppose when you think about some of the disaster movies, the antagonist can, could actually be disaster, or at least part of that. I think you could probably make that as broad as you wanted, and in some ways maybe the antagonist needs to be sentient some way. Intentional, but I don't know.

Alex:

You could think about the different genres of gaming, say a platforming game and the antagonist is the challenge of the platform or the traps and pitfalls and bits where you get stuck and you have to climb a different way. You could make it very broad in that way, yeah, it'd be interesting to, to really explore that across different genres. Obviously when you think about people as antagonists, that often lends itself to a very cinematic story within a game,

Matt:

that's a really good quote Jem.'cause my perspective on particularly battle and fight scenes, but also in fiction in general, is that the world itself should be a character. The world should always be, if you are, if you've got two people fighting, you've got one side. The other side and the environment'cause the most memorable. Fight scenes are ones that the environment is com intrinsically linked to. So if you think of all the fight scenes in the Matrix series, I can recall pretty much you think of a fight. You don't just think, oh, they're just in a random environment. They're in this, that beautiful, marble like entrance room in the second one and the dojo in the first one and the, oh, it's just awesome. So at every point the environment should be playing a role in it as well. And weather is a massive thing that can be a force against you this leads into this quite nicely'cause we're gonna start off with the things that we think make a compelling antagonist. And now that we've broadened it to going, it doesn't have to be a purse and it doesn't have to be a thing. It can be a concept, It can be a, it can be an environment, it can be a weather, it can be sentient, it can be un sentient. Basically anything that works against us. And then when you take that makes it far more challenging to create something compelling because the rule book is wide open. You go right, you've got carte blanche to do whatever you want here. Just make it interesting. And what is it that makes something we enjoy fighting against. Because that's what pre, antagonists are supposed to be. They're supposed to be the one that you are, you've got to be afraid of them, and you've got to wants to defeat them. I'll start with Boulder is one of my favorites from God of war because he's this mysterious force of nature. When we meet him, he's this wiry, skinny little, he looks like a meth head, and he's the first big boss that you face in the new game. And then whereas in all the other games you'd have, you'd start off with, you're fighting the hydra, you're fighting the colosous of roads, you're climbing up the walls of mountain impasse on the back of the titans, ready to do battle against the gods. And this one, they pack all of that gravitas into this skinny little guy. And then you, throughout the story, you reveal what a terribly tragic, broken person he is. And so that's one thing for me, I like tragedy. I like a really tragic antagonist. So tragedy is one thing that I like a lot.

Alex:

I guess thinking about the antagonist as a person, if I think about some of my favorite games, even Journey, where your goal is to reach the top of the mountain and the antagonist is all of the times when you feel like you're slipping further back down the mountain, there's that particular level near the end where it turns very wintery and dark and all becomes a bit fraught and stormy and you're stuck in the snowstorm effectively. And I think it builds a real sense of like desperation, and futility at how small you are and how tiny you are and how powerful the wind is, and mother nature and how you feel almost powerless to stop it to the point where your character collapses in the snow because they can't go on anymore. And then you get revitalized by the elders. That comes around June, shoot off, up to the top of the mountain. It's got to have a sense, in the arc of the story of progressing, overcoming that antagonist or bypassing it in some way that gives you a sense and strength and power. I think, that's a really important feeling. And just going from one, strong emotion to the other. So a big low to a big high it's definitely one of the most emotional games that I've played. I think that aspect of the, overcoming the antagonist of the environment, and of the sense of hopelessness as well, is really, is, has got a lot of layers to it and I think it's very powerful.

Jem:

The antagonist of the environment is such a good phrase. you brought up the idea of emotional feelings as the player and. That's probably, can be antagonistic, It? Like

Alex:

Yes.

Jem:

you feel frustrated, if you feel challenged, you know, those are the, that's the emotional challenge of playing a game in itself, on top of of the puzzles that you might have to deal with or the bosses you might have to tackle. That's, that can also be, an antagonist I think that the, real importance of a antagonist is to drive, narrative. not just about providing something for you to fight, it's also about. Driving the story and giving the story depth and meaning. And it brings in all these things about the sort of moral complexity and helps the, main character to solidify their. Personal motivations and why they're doing what they're doing and what they're trying to achieve. And, I was thinking about like Cassandra from, dragon Age Inquisition she's a bit of an antagonist because she, she has very strict moral code that doesn't necessarily with what the player might believe or what the main character has. And and she also represents the institution existing status quo and has very strong views on that. So she's not evil, she's not against you, but she does provide a sort of. Sounding board, for your position and challenges, your thoughts on whether we should do this or do that. In a game where you might be leaning towards the role play or the, at least the RPG elements it helps you to go No, I don't agree with that view or, yes, I do agree with that view, but it's challenges you to actually think about it. And it's one of the things that we've talked about a lot is about how gaming can give you that insight into different views and different perspectives. And it's quite good if a game sort of forces you to consider these things rather than just being as constant. I'm gonna. the boxes or I'm gonna go for the best stats or whatever. An antagonist can give that depth and give another layer to the game.

Matt:

Yeah, absolutely. The'cause what makes things characters interesting is change. You want to see how they change and why they change.'cause most people don't want to change. Most people do ev anything they can do rather than change. And a good antagonist forces that kind of uncomfortable change. And then we don't know. We don't know where it's gonna go if the antagonist is good enough. And I'm going to talk about The Last of Us, particularly part two, which you mentioned a moment ago, Jem, where it's probably the best example of a completely gray universe where you can argue in the same breath that one character is the hero and the absolute arch villain. From, almost any point. And it depends on your perspective and also, but then it also makes you care about most of these characters so that you have to go, I care about Joel, but he's done this thing and I still care about him. So what does that mean about me? Is there something he could do that would turn cause me to turn away from him entirely? And because it's a game and not real life, you can actually explore these very gray and dark areas. And Abby is a fantastic antagonist because she's the absolute antithesis to Ellie. They've both got this violent, soul, but they move through the world very differently and they exist as very different people. Antagonists that you can play as is really interesting. You've done well like with Abby. And then I always like that the, the second, so this isn't, this is similar, but it's the second in command syndrome where if you think the, if you think the big bad guy's bad, wait until you kill them and see what their second in command's is that person is always worse. It's like Negan and Simon in the Walking Dead. Once you think you've killed Negan, you think, oh, everything. I'm sure everything we've better now. When it's worse and you think Abby's bad, then you meet Isaac and then you meet the rest of the W and then you meet the scars and you go, oh my God, these are the bad people. And it becomes much more gray. Yeah, that's brilliant. What other things in an antagonist that make them un uncompelling, that make you go, eh,'cause I realized thinking about this, trying to come up with good examples a lot of games there are that are good games that you play them'cause they're good games don't necessarily have a villain in them that is particularly compelling. But the game's still good. And I want to discuss what, what makes a villain forgettable or uninteresting?

Alex:

I think for me, if they're too predictable, I think most stories can be quite predictable in games. And the ways that characters will behave. You can see sometimes the twists coming, which kind of points to the fact that they're not really proper twists because you know what's coming. so things like uncharted, got a lot of predictable storylines in there,'cause it's basing itself off of things like Indiana Jones Tomb Raider. If you love those stories, then that's great.'cause I, I'm a big fan of those types of stories, but they're not necessarily, I don't go into them expecting the unexpected necessarily. which again, you could argue that's not a bad thing if it's what you're after. But I think if there's a character who is less predictable, it makes for a more interesting and engaging, game. As a whole in terms of the story. So the particular example for Uncharted is you've got sort of dual antagonist slash villain in the fourth one. So where you've got, and I think it's Ray the main body, and obviously Nadine defects by the last quarter and you end up, you can play alongside her in the DLC Lost Legacy when you play as Chloe, which is an interesting dynamic, but again, relatively predictable. And the reasons behind her defecting is that she just grows tired being the sole representative of her father's, goons for her company I feel like they could have gone into a little bit more depth about it, to be honest, because it feels like it gets to a point and then they're like, oh, but that's, we don't need to go any further into that We could leave it there. But I feel like if you went into a bit more depth than is explored, certainly in just uncharted 4, it would be more interesting. do try to do it in, in the DLC, but they also explore more of Chloe's black backstory as well as Chloe is the protagonist in that one. So I think definitely having a story that you don't expect for characters involved is a good one.

Matt:

Having, I like when a, an antagonist becomes an ally Or sees the light like Freya does. But what I don't like is poorly contrived, turning to the good side, which is what Nadines feels like. He's going, oh, they're a good person on the wrong side. And then, oh, now I'm going to, I'm going to not take care of my father's legacy anymore and I'm gonna be one of the good guys. That always just struck me as a bit lame. I.

Jem:

Think that, any character that's too trophy I think just is a massive turnoff when it comes to antagonist. As you say, Alex, sometimes we play games because we know that we're not gonna have to necessarily work too hard mentally, and the story is going to trip along and it's going to be reasonably predictable. But I still feel like even in those games, there's room for the surprising characters for the characters that challenge you, the characters that make you think about your decisions. Not necessarily you as an individual player, but your, the character that you are playing at the very least. And think, there's nothing worse and a coming up against characters where you can, you know exactly what they're going to do the whole way through. And b ones that are just drawing on really tired Tropes. And Do have that a lot with female antagonists, of which there aren't that many. But the often they are really trope and it's. It's quite depressing because it's really a sign of how difficult so many of these writers find writing women, writing genuine women with genuine motivations. I think, we talked about her before, but, lady, Dimitrescu in, resident Evil Village I think was one of the ones that, was frustrating because she just was. Very bland, really in her, there wasn't a lot of depth to her. She was very trophy. She was very sexualized. She was, there was just so much going on with her that was just lazy writing really. And even though the combat game mechanics, the visualization of the character were all really fun. And I know she's very popular character for all of that. And certainly her was brilliant. I think, as a character she was, she fell so flat and it's such a shame because there was a lot of potential there for her to have depth that they just didn't really bother with. And I think that is this idea that. We can just lean on tropes. And also that as long as the antagonist looks good or is, has fancy fireworks or something going on, we don't need to actually consider their motivations and their backstory so for me, that's one of the things that makes antagonists uncompelling. And I think when they become uncompelling, they're not just disappointed, but they lose almost all of their power. So then it becomes very difficult. It's why is my character being challenged by this person

Alex:

it's funny, while you were speaking. It actually made me think, perhaps there is another character an uncharted for that's a better antagonist. that is the ca, the character of Elena, is Nathan's wife, who is essentially fighting to get him to think about his marriage and whether he can keep adventuring in the way that he's been doing, or whether he needs to give more of his time, emotional investment into the marriage work a little bit more, isn't necessarily a trope, I would say. I think it's the first time that I've seen an action focused game. Bring up the questions of, what happens when you've got a long-term relationship you're an adventurer? What do you do? How does that work? So in that way there is perhaps an antagonist I hadn't fully considered before, I think it does make Nathan question whether he can keep going along with his brother, now that his brother's randomly come back and, or whether he should actually pack it all in and spend time being normal. With Elena, that's one of the big dilemmas that faces Nathan at the beginning of the game. He's got this actual job that he's getting paid money for working, on shipping it is shipping, it's basically salvage, isn't it? So it is whether he wants to throw that all away and just stay adventuring or. Kind of carry on trying to mend the disconnect that's happened in his relationship. So in that way, Elena definitely acts as an antagonist to force him to consider what will happen if that relationship goes away.

Matt:

Yeah, that fits in perfectly with the predictable bollocks kind of thing because the, when I think of a good antagonist, I think, I have no idea what's gonna happen next. I have no idea what the next word out of their mouth is gonna be and the impact it's gonna have or the thing that they're gonna do. You just know that they're doing something that is gonna be bad for you and you don't know what it's gonna be, when it's gonna happen. It's just that tension all the time. It's an excellent expansion of what an antagonist could be because she doesn't want him to go after venturing anymore. She wants to have the relationship and have kids and that. And because it's a'cause it's uncharted. You go, obviously it's gonna be fine. They're not gonna get divorced. Or it'd be very unlikely that something unexpected happen.'cause she could die and you'd go, oh no, that's sad. But then that's a massive trope, so who cares? Or she could leave him. You go, oh. What's the worst that can happen with that kind of thing? You go, it'll probably be fine in the end. And, but it sells that trope that women make your life boring. If you're in a relationship, then the woman's gonna be nagging you to settle down and have a normal job and have kids and be boring and that's frustrating.

Alex:

I think it did come round to the, again, it's probably quite tropey, but it did come round in the end to a normal, an ordinary, normal life is the real adventure ending. yeah, again, you could argue that's too trope or actually it's a good message, but like it's, there's, you can take it either way, I think. Definitely.

Jem:

It comes down to that point at the start that the antagonist can be the world, society has these, expectations and, as she's trying to get him to stop adventuring, that's because she's trying to put the brakes on his exciting life and ruin it and make him have to come home and live, a normal life with her. But the reality is that's what 90% of

Alex:

Yeah.

Jem:

are doing living normal lives. They're not off adventuring. So it, I think it, it makes you question as a, as the character, but also as the gamer and what is a good life, Different people are gonna have different answers to that. She is forcing that conversation Through. That role in the game. So yeah, I think it's an interesting take on the Of antagonist.

Matt:

Predictable stuff is dull and we've talked. Recently quite a bit about writers are constrained by the genre that they're working in. And it's rare that the writer is in charge of the product, but there's no excuse for writers to not inject some stuff that is, that has to be good. You can't just go, oh, we just need to, we just need to have a villain to stand here and say, I want to take over the world and you'll never stop me. Here are my minions. And then move on from there. Any writer worth their salt is gonna go, I'm going to, do something. The if a, if the executives don't know the asking, what they're asking is rubbish. They're not gonna know if I put some good stuff in anyway. Think we'll bring it to a close there. Thank you very much for this conversation, and thank you everyone for watching or listening, and find us. Watch us listen to us. You can go onto our Patreon to look for some exclusive content and we will see you next time. Farewell, I.