Gaming The System - The Feminist Gaming Podcast

236 - Antagonists — Part 2: Femme Fatales, Loose Cannons & Why Bad Villains Fail

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Last week we challenged the myth that “antagonist = evil.” Now Matt, Jem & Alex put the spotlight on female antagonists—where they shine, where they’re fetishised, and why poorly-drawn foes can sink an otherwise great game.

In this episode

2015-22 just 11 % of video-game antagonists were women

Do you need at least one sentient antagonist?

We discuss Lady Dimitrescu’s “mother-fication,” Quiet’s tactical bikini, Orin the red's erraticism, Frau Engel, Yennefer and more.  

The worst thing a villain can be is inconsequential.

How can gamers demand more?

Listen for a wide-ranging chat about our best and worst antagonists,  how they can make or break the gaming experience and why diverse writers can level-up the next generation of gaming’s greatest antagonists and 

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Jem:

she is definitely, antagonistic'cause she tips up and throws a spanner in the works It's not about you, it's about them.

Matt:

you need to have at least one sentient. Antagonist.'cause if it's non sentient, then it's just a force of nature. You're just enduring something that's happening.

Alex:

When we think about perceptions or experiences different to our own, it can be uncomfortable for us to think about, and that's some of the ways that antagonists can work in future.

Matt:

Hello everyone. Welcome back to another episode of Gaming the System, the podcast where three intersectional feminists examine gaming and games through a feminist lens. Today I am your host, Matt, and I'm joined by my friends Alex and Jem Before we get started, if you want to support us, you can subscribe to our Patreon at patreon.com/gaming system for some exclusive content. Or you can send us a one-off donation via PayPal to our email address. We are gaming the system@gmail.com. We're focusing now on female antagonists and the way that they're portrayed, how often they are fetishized, they are the representation of a fetish that the game designers have. And then it immediately becomes, so immersion breakings, you're going right. The core of what this character is a fetishized concept. So Lady D is a nine foot tall, dominating man eater, no fetishes there, and Quiet from Metal Gear Solid Five. She's just this naked, silent sniper in the desert. What other kind of elements of female antagonists do you two, think about.

Alex:

I certainly think that pretty much, I can't think of any female antagonist that's not been sexualized in some way or other. Definitely taking it from the male gaze, I would say. I'm trying to think of examples apart from the ones I've already mentioned.

Jem:

Abby in the Last of us I don't think is sexualized.

Alex:

That's true. But then no, you are right's. That's just more over in my head obviously there is, there sex scenes in the game as well, but that doesn't necessarily mean what the same thing as being sexualized does it.

Jem:

I'm not surprised that you're struggling because, Feminist frequency did a study in 2023 and they found that just 11% of antagonists, this was between 2015 and 2022 were female.

Alex:

Gosh. Yeah.

Jem:

I hope that number has increased since 22. But, it's not surprising that when we were thinking about this is it is just really hard to come up with good, solid female antagonistic characters. And I think you're right. You know that when they're not. Sexy, they're sexualized like lady D what really was, she was all about her bosom.

Alex:

Yeah.

Jem:

And also about her, were they her daughters?

Matt:

Not blood daughters,

Jem:

No.

Matt:

so to speak. So

Jem:

Yeah,

Matt:

weird pseudo family thing, which is just everywhere.

Jem:

yeah. So she was Motherfication and and sexualized. That's a double whammy for, a female

Alex:

Yes.

Jem:

They've always had some major trauma. I think often the case with villains, but whenever there's a female. Antagonists. It's always, they would be really nice person except that this bad thing happened to them, usually at the hands of, a man and

Alex:

Can you think of any that have like physical differences or disfigurements and going along the line of villains a bit more now?'cause that's often a trope with villains, isn't it? that's, I dunno if that's more male than female.

Matt:

One of my favorite ones is Frau Engel from the, the Wolfenstein games. She's this over the top Nazi high commander. And in the first game you rip half her face off with a robot of some sort. And then she comes back and the next one all mangled. And the villain from the first game has sorts of a zombie face as well. But then their behavior is horrifying enough. It's not, you go, oh my God, it's the face that makes them so awful.

Jem:

Yeah. I had a lot of issues with Yennifer from, The Witcher actually, because, she has this disfigurement as a child and then uses magic

Alex:

I had a, lot of thoughts about that. Definitely. I wrote a blog about it at the time, as well. I've only played bits of the Witcher three. From playing that you wouldn't know about the difference when she was a child. Fact for any Andor fans, the voice of Yfa is the actress who plays dead Ramiro. I dunno if you guys watch and or, but for anyone listening who does that really surprised me. But it makes total sense and it's very cool. You'd have no idea that happened at all from playing the Witcher 3. I think you could argue that most of the women that, that Geralt was romantically involved with are probably antagonists as well. But again, I haven't played oodles of Witcher 3, so know the full story for each of them, but.

Matt:

Yeah, Yennifer definitely the darker of the. The romantic option'cause it's always Tris or Yennifer Tris is all sunshines and rainbows and lovely and wanting to help majors flee from oppression. Whereas Yennifer is very power hungry, which is interesting. And I don't like when they make someone's sexiness, like a core part of the character, like with Quiet, it goes, why is she in a bikini? Because something in the game. And you go, oh, fine. And the thing with the Yennifer and the Witcher, it started off, the Witcher was, a collection of short stories and then he wrote the novels. So I don't know about Yennifer's particular backstory, but the thing of women having to undergo Sexification in order to have any standing in the world is tricky. there are also, and it doesn't have, one thing I like about a good antagonist is it doesn't have to be, I want to destroy the universe villain. And it can be a very small mini boss in a game. For example, Marguerite Baker in Resident Evil seven, who's the six Spider woman thing. And ah, that was just. Revolting and brilliant. Let's look at why these kinds of poor characters get made, because presumably no game designer goes, I want to make a, I want to make a, an antagonist that no one is bothered by or no one's scared of. So why do we think that poor antagonists are created?

Alex:

A lack of time to develop the characters. Perhaps that would be my first suggestion, if there are time constraints on the development, or a lack of budget, to expand on the story perhaps, or maybe a too much of a focus on the protagonist story. Yeah, it's difficult to know exactly, but from a writing perspective, could be all sorts of factors. It might just be a focus on maybe one or two core characters, and therefore not enough time to flesh out some of the obstacles that the protagonist faces.

Matt:

there's no excuse. There's still no excuse to go. And yeah, it's the clear priorities of the companies. So there's some writers just aren't very good at writing. That's just true. Some writers make poor characters because they're not good writers, but that they're being, but if you're getting paid to write, then you're a professional writer, and it's just, yeah, that's, that's one thing. You can't guarantee that someone's gonna come up with something good. But my expectation of rices is it doesn't have to be perfect. It just has to be distinctive. Just try something, throw something, interest some, something unusual at the wall and go from there. Lack of imagination from. Writers. And then there's also the executive side who they don't care about the quality of the game or the characters. They see gameplay, loop microtransactions, and you can tell so clearly, especially in live service games, you're going right, there's enemy. Enemy survive this wave of enemy of enemies attacking you and you just go, those are just NPCs attacking me. They're not individual people. They're not like in the last of us. When they, the enemies call out the names of their comrades that you kill, you go, oh shit, these are actual people. And then they send a boss character against you or you go, oh, that's just another MPC with the stats. Stats built up. What do you think Jim?

Jem:

Yeah, I think you're right. The problem, comes when you can see the mechanics behind the game there is a real problem with that. Where it's, it becomes lazy, it becomes, like a window through which you see the mechanics. And that's really problematic because it's jarring when you're playing a game, especially if it's an immersive, engaging storyline. And suddenly you're like, oh, I can see that now you've, leveled up this creature and put a different skin on it and it, but it's the same thing.

Matt:

Yeah.

Jem:

I think sometimes it can just be a well-meaning, but, failing, attempt at working, broadening the story. I think one, one of them that came to mind was like the calamity in the, in Breathe of the Wild the z Zelda game, which I know is very old now. But it, they took Gannon who had always been the sort of bad and made it the Calamity to explain why the world was broken and why link had to put till back together. However that just created like a cool thing. You're fighting this big amorphous, not really thing. And there was this whole scenes set around that, which were cool, but they just didn't have any steps to them because you weren't fighting an actual being. You were, you'd lost that. villain-ness that Gannon had and therefore the, lose the, an antagonism within that character. And I think, so we were talking earlier about how villains are always antagonists, but not all antagonists are villains, as I completely agree with. But I do think there are times when the writing fails and the characterization fails and you end up with villains who are not really antagonists and then you have a massive problem.

Matt:

Yeah, that's an excellent. Analysis of it. You go, it is the worst thing, and the worst thing a villain can be is inconsequential. And you go, then, then what's the point in any of this? Why would I be? They try and say, this is the villain. And because they're the villain, you should be scared of them. And in threatened by them, you go, you're just saying, you're just telling us what they are. You're not showing us what they can do or convincing us of why we should be scared of them. And yeah, just immersion, breaking things. I suppose we're thinking about the, you can have sentient versus non sentient antagonists and I think you really, you need to have at least one sentient. Antagonist.'cause if it's non sentient, then it's just a force of nature. And so you are working against something which isn't reacting to you. You're just enduring something that's happening. Whereas if, say, like in The Last of Us, you've got the infected, which are a force of nature, and then you've got people which are sentient. And then amongst those people, you've got these, the people that the bad people follow and they, you just, they just, you just show you what these people do and you go, Ooh, the people who do this are bad. The people that lead them must be worse. When am I gonna meet those people? you can also have non sentient things like, in shadow of the Colossus, The big colossi are just these big lumbering, fairly chilled out things And you've got to go and kill them. And just, it's tragic as you go through and it can, it just needs to be complex. Just give me something and it doesn't have to. And yeah, having it be a really simple backstory as well.'cause we say the awful trope of hurt people hurt people, but assholes hurt people as well. And you can have, it's a problem that female antagonists face as well as. Female protagonists because their strength comes from a traumatic experience that they had, whereas plenty of male, protagonists are, they're just strong because they're strong and then we tell a story from there. Whereas with, in film and tv, it's almost always they were sexually assaulted at some point in their past, and now they're strong as a result of that, rather than just going, yeah. So sexual assault daddy issues is very frustrating to, to see, like with Nadine, you just go, oh, she's doing everything based on the memory of her dad. And then she goes, oh, I'm not gonna do that legacy anymore. So I'll, I'm a good guy now and. What do we, is there a way, we've had some ideas of why bad antagonists are made. Is there anything that we can do as gamers and consumers that can maybe improve the odds of better antagonists and particularly better female antagonists?

Jem:

I think challenging it is important. Challenging it when it's bad and praising it when it's good. I was just thinking about say Orin the Red from Boulder's Gate three. I mean she does have, I suppose you could argue she has some daddy issues

Alex:

Yeah.

Jem:

And she is sexualized in a way, fetishized But also just bonkers and she is definitely, antagonistic'cause she tips up and throws a spanner in the works at multiple points during the game and don't really know what she's going to do. A very much a loose cannon. So I think she's quite a good example of an antagonist. Who is I. Just getting on with their life and you just happen to be that annoying thing in the way, or you happen to be another stepping stone for what they want to achieve. So it's not really about you, it's about them. And would've liked to have seen more of Orin than we did in the game. But I think, I think that's a good character. And I think the hag actually as well in Boulder skate is also an interesting one. Again, she's got this sort of storyline about wanting a baby, but it's almost more that she's just oh yeah, that's what I do. But

Alex:

Yeah.

Jem:

I'm

Alex:

'cause I'm a hack.

Jem:

just

Alex:

Yeah.

Jem:

evil old lady and, causing trouble. And I've been doing that for hundreds of years, I'm not gonna stop now. So I felt like although they, there was a slight tropeyness to both those characters, they owned it and made it their own. That's really. Fun way to, to approach the, the challenge. And so I think these are the that we, that as gamers, we can make our voices heard is that we have to go out there and we have to praise the ones where they get it right. And that's what Boulders Gate three has done really in so many ways Boulders Gate three comes out, and then, Dragon Age, comes out, not that much later. So they were close enough that there was able to be a real comparison between them and Dragon ages f flopped. And although people, there are people out there who do like it and have played it because they like the world, they like the concept. Most people do feel like it just wasn't as good as, as bold as gate three. It could have been so much better. And I really hope that just the figures and the money will speak for itself. It's an interesting comparison to be made between those two games, and I think that those are the ways that we can hope that games companies will take more note on these kind of characters, but as we say, it's really boring and we basically say it like every time. But, diversity in the game design team, diversity in the players, diversity, it is the most important thing for everything everywhere in your diet, in your friendship groups, in your game, designing things, in your activities. It's just a really important, and the more we can encourage people to hire diverse writers, um, the more likely we are to have better, antagonists to challenge our protagonists.

Alex:

Yeah, I would definitely agree. I'm not sure there's much more I can add to, to Jem. You've said it pretty much, very comp comprehensively. Like you said, we always talk about diversity and I definitely think that can bring, lots of different perspectives and lots of different intersections game stories, which is often we challenge our own bias, when we think about perceptions or experiences different to our own, it can be uncomfortable for us to think about, and that's some of the ways that antagonists can work in future. So yeah, I definitely echo what Jem says.

Matt:

Yeah, it's a tricky one because we haven't even talked about games that don't have a, an antagonist. So like most mobile games and, games, blah, blah, simulators and those kind of thing because there's the, there are plenty of wildly successful games that don't have a, where the antagonist isn't. As isn't important, isn't very important. So in the Witcher three, it's a awesome game. Incredibly successful, incredibly good. The big bad guy isn't, you're not looking over your shoulder for them the entire time. You're not worried about them the entire time. They're just this existential threat thing at the end that you go, I'm just gonna have to have that big battle at the end and whatever. But at the minute I'm going whale watching with this bloke, or I'm having sex on a unicorn with yen or any number of things. So when a game like Boulder Gate three does such an incredible job, it's. It is both good and disheartening.'cause I go, this has been really successful, but Call of Duty's also really successful or fortnight's really successful, or any number of those things that make a lot more money with far less like love and heart that needs to be poured into the character design than games like Boulders Gate three R. Especially now that the actors are getting, often getting far more like personal notoriety now. Rather than it just being about the characters, if it's like the characters and the actors become a big deal, like with the Baulder's Gate three cast, I think I'll finish with saying with Orin, I, she was too scary to be sexy for me because I remember when we were talking about Zoa and I said that I had sex with Zoa, and I said that it was one of those things where you go, oh, I might die, but we'll give it a go and see what happens. And and it was fine. And I think that's, I think that's what most like sexualized villains are like if you go, oh, but they're, they should be so evil and repulsive that you wouldn't touch them no matter how sexy they may be. And Orin was just you, there was one point where you can try and flirt with her and then she says something so horrifyingly violent and repulsive. You just go, nope. This is unhinged and dangerous and I'm Red flag and I'm out of here.

Alex:

She is literally,

Matt:

Orin the red flag. I think we'll finish on this really nice statement that Games workshop, the company that made War makes more Hammer they put out, but this was four years ago Before. Hopefully they won't have changed very much.'cause Games Workshop is a British company, so they won't have been, although I rock stars. In based in Scotland or something, but blah, I'll ignore them. The, so they make Warhammer war Hammer 40 K and they wrote the statement, the Imperium is driven by hate. Warhammer is not, There are no goodies in the Warhammer 40 K universe, none, especially not the imperium of mad. And they say Warhammer is for everyone. We continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray through miniatures, art and storytelling. So everyone can find representation in heroes they can relate to. If you feel the same way, wherever or whoever you are, we're glad you're part of the Warhammer community. If not, you will not be missed. And that's how you, that's how you respond to people's criticism because there you. War Hammer 40 K is so dark and dystopian to go into it and go, oh, there are goodies and bad guys here. Even Sanguineous, the golden angel, the paragon of mankind, the one of one of the books that I read the start of is describing from the point of view of a water cellar on the home planet of the blood angels, and he just lives in squalor and poverty and hates his life and just go. But yeah, so even there are no good, there are no good guys. Even the blood angels and the paragons let the people in their backyard live like animals and then that makes it more interesting. They don't need to be super good or super bad. It just needs to be interesting and hope That's all we want. So

Jem:

Sir.

Matt:

think we'll bring it to a close there. Thank you very much for this conversation, and thank you everyone for watching or listening, you can go onto our Patreon to look for some exclusive content and we will see you next time. Farewell,

Jem:

sorry that banging is my cat trying to get in through the cat's lab. can actually do it really well, but she's actually effectively knocking. Let me in. I'm too lazy unless you have to stay out there. She's looking at me.