Gaming The System - The Feminist Gaming Podcast

240 Open World Games – Part 2: The Joy and the Job of Exploration

• Gaming The System - The Feminist Gaming Podcast

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In this second half of our adventure into open-world games, Jem, Alex, and Matt pick up the conversation with a focus on accessibility, open worlds done wrong, and how to define that "Je ne sais quoi" when it works.

We dig into overwhelm, especially for neurodiverse or time-poor gamers. Time to remember that good accessibility features aren’t about “dumbing down” but enhancing play for everyone. 

Matt unpacks why some open-world games fail — empty maps, repetitive quests, weak writing, and executive-led design — while Alex shares her frustrations with fatigue and grinding that make huge maps feel like chores. We compare the worst offenders to the triumphs, asking what makes games like Elden Ring or The Witcher 3 consistently compelling.

Jem brings the stats: if only 14% of open-world players are women, what does that say about how these games are designed and marketed? Are women genuinely less interested, or are the games themselves exclusionary?

Finally, we ask the big question: do we prefer games with clear endings or endless play? 

Will all of this soon be obsolete with the advent of AI supported writing? That's a topic for a future episode! 

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jem_1_08-09-2025_155453:

no one is saying that you shouldn't play the game on the hardest level and just, really go at it, you're amazing. If you can get through these levels and do it all on a speed run or, with no deaths nobody is trying to take that away from you.

matt-guest513_1_08-09-2025_155451:

you go to a really nice restaurant where they really know what they're doing and you go, surprise me, and they'll bring out this plate, and it's full of stuff that you've never seen before and you don't understand how it's made or what's in it, but you eat it and you take a few bites and you go, oh, the rest of this is gonna be fantastic.

alex--she-her-_1_08-09-2025_155457:

I like to explore and do puzzles and Tom likes to do all the combat but the ironic thing is that with Ghost of Oshima, I'm actually better at the combat than he is, which I'm very much enjoying. Being a smug about, when we play together'cause I'm having a better time with it, than he is

Speaker:

Hello and welcome back to another episode of Gaming the System, the podcast where three intersectional feminists examine gaming and games through a feminist lens. I'm your host for today. I'm Gem, and I'm here with my friends Alex and Matt. So before we get started, if you want to support us, you can subscribe to our patron at patron.com/gaming the system for some exclusive content. Or you can send us a one-off donation via PayPal to our email address. We are gaming the system@gmail.com.

jem_1_08-09-2025_155453:

Hello and welcome to another episode of Gaming the System with myself, Jem, Alex and Matt. We are going to continue our in-depth conversation about open World Games. In our last session we talked about how difficult it is to actually pin down a description of what. An open world game is some of the popular ones are Legend of Zel, tears of the Kingdom, grand Theft Auto. Red dead redemption too, et cetera, et cetera. We talked a little bit about why people might enjoy those kind of games. And we got onto the topic of overwhelm Alex was talking about how horizon Forbidden West had become a little bit overwhelming because there was just so much to do and it felt, undoable, when I was looking at accessibility and, who are these games for? One of the things that came up was that these sorts of environments, these sort of games might be quite challenging for Neurodiverse people or people who may just. Find it difficult to hold all this information and all these possibilities and find. That aspect overwhelming there are so many different directions that you can go in. You end up frozen decision paralysis is a real thing. I experience it quite a lot. So I was really wondering about what do you feel about that? Do you feel that these kind of games are actually putting too much out there and are actually becoming inaccessible to certain people? We know that when a mobile phone is on somebody's desk its simple. Presence on the table in your vision can distract you from. Your other tasks. When you were talking last session, Alex, one of the things you said was that your map was filled with all these little things saying, oh, you need to come here. You need to go and do that. And suddenly it can become more like a job and less like fun. I'm wondering if this is something that is inherent in these open World games. Is it something that just has to be there

matt-guest513_1_08-09-2025_155451:

the key is accessibility features

jem_1_08-09-2025_155453:

Mm.

matt-guest513_1_08-09-2025_155451:

to all of that, because on the, can I play that website? They have an exhaustive list of all of the different kinds of features, depending on whether your issue is cognitive, visual, audio. All the answers are there. This is a place where AI stuff can be useful. You have an AI assister going, oh, where am I? What do I do next? And the AI can come in and go, oh yeah, you're here. You need to go and do that. And you go, oh, I don't remember how to use the anchor gun okay, we'll do a quick run through of that. So artificial intelligence can be a huge assist in the future. I'm not an expert by any means on all the different types of disability. Some of this stuff is a surprise to me that I wouldn't have thought of'cause I don't have these issues. This is where games companies need to be paying attention for things like people with cognitive issues the amount of stuff on the screen now the games are so, there's so much detail and diversity of visuals that can be, overwhelming the way information is expressed. Everything in an open world game, could be tailored to suit, neurodiverse people and people who struggle with attention and information retention every time we talk about accessibility, it comes with the, the artists making it put their artistic vision first and go, well, we can't, we can't have a, a simplified version of the map.'cause we've made this beautiful, hand drawn, cartoony style map with all these things and you just go, well, it's like finding, where's Wally Trying to work out where you need to go next? And yeah, things like skipping battles, having auto fight settings, which is what some of the new final fantasy games have where the combat happens automatically, but you can use inputs to do special moves. And a massive deal would be always having an option to play tutorials, plenty of people will play a game for a bit then forget about it and come back. Later and go, I don't remember where I am. I don't remember who I am. I don't remember what I'm doing. I don't remember how to do it.

jem_1_08-09-2025_155453:

That's me on a Saturday morning.

matt-guest513_1_08-09-2025_155451:

In the Witcher three, every time you load the game, I think is Mir just goes. And so Geral meeting up with his former lover went on their way to go and find. Siri and went here and he went there, but then there was something unexpected coming up and it's essentially as simple as, dotting a few of those things as well. The creativity of having an open world game doesn't mean you can't be creative on a smaller level as well.

alex--she-her-_1_08-09-2025_155457:

I think those are some excellent ideas, Matt. There's definitely some features that would improve it I think we all have left an open world game for a long time and come back to it and forgotten how anything works. That can be quite overwhelming in itself. I think in terms of. Busy maps. There's certainly some developers that are well known for having busy maps, Ubisoft they make some of my favorite games, which is Assassin's Creed weirdly though, I do love a collectible. love getting collectibles. And some people absolutely. Do not have time for them. I can see why that would be a frustration if it was on a map as well. But I think if there was the option to provide more player choice through accessibility, that's definitely a step in the right direction in terms of making these types of games less overwhelming and more accessible to people.

jem_1_08-09-2025_155453:

I think you both made some really good points. Matt, those ideas are just awesome. I hope somebody's listening to that

matt-guest513_1_08-09-2025_155451:

another very frustrating thing about them is with lots of accessibility things. People going, oh, it means we have to dumb things down. We have to slow things down. We need to lower our scale of what we need. No. You are adding enhancements to things. There are things that some people cannot play without, but there are also people who will play with these kinds of settings because they're good and because they're cool. Like the slow motion mode on the last of us games. can have slow motion every time you aim. And that just makes it incredibly more cinematic. I've always said high contrast modes look really cool as well.

jem_1_08-09-2025_155453:

No, I think that's a really important point because when you were saying about it, I was thinking, yeah, I can hear a lot of people out there going like, oh, you know, stop moaning you just have to get good and if you can't play the game, you shouldn't play the game and all of this. And I think no one is saying that you shouldn't play the game on the hardest level and just, really go at it, you're amazing. If you can get through these levels and do it all on a speed run or, with no deaths nobody is trying to take that away from you. It is more about bringing more people into that environment. It's not about stopping people from playing the game as it was. Envisioned. So Matt, you were talking last session about being interested in what we thought were the ones that had got it wrong or weren't. So I'm guessing from this that you might have a couple of thoughts on this topic. So I'm interested in what your thoughts are about where are we seeing open world games that have got it wrong, and why have they got it wrong? How have they got it wrong?

matt-guest513_1_08-09-2025_155451:

Okay, so they, their vision of open world games is very, very narrow because these are, these, they go wrong when you have executive led game decisions you can't have someone who, only plays mobile games, develop an open world game because they're just completely different things the, the crow barring in of micro transactions is a massive downer as well. But for the most part, I don't think. The game. GTA five has lots of micro transactions and they are, they are there in some games, but they often just, that's a bad impact. The biggest crime is a massive world that is empty, and if it's not completely empty, then it's filled with boring, repetitive quests Have no meat or depth or story to them, and then the writing's almost always terrible. All of these things come in a package. You can have bad writing and a game still be brilliant, which unfortunately is what Death Stranding two turned out to be. The writing was abysmal, absolutely abysmal. else was awesome, but the writing was abysmal. when you can combine that with quests, you go, well, why would I, why am I bothering doing this playing? It isn't fun. The, I'm not being compelled by an interesting story to do it. The map is massive and not interesting. There's a misconception that open world means nothing is deliberately designed because in a linear environment you have a level, you design that level very specifically, and then you, you have that level. in an open world, it can seem at first glance that it's just a random collection of things, but. Good developers think of everything on the map as a a closed type of environment. And then just because you put it on the surface with no walls around it mean it's not still a dungeon. And so they have. Meticulously designed environments everywhere rather than just, oh, we'll just make a massive map, like in ghost recon, breakpoint, massive jungle map, and there's just nothing there. And then all the characters just go, oh, hi there. This is a quest I've got for you to do. And then it's a boring quest, and so big open, empty, pointless, boring. Nonsense. And that's, yeah, and game like Assassin Creed, shadows, devastatingly is the first time I've been with a Creed game since 2009, since the first one. And it's basically the ghost of Shima is the Assassin's Creed game that Assassin's Creed shadows should have been. So I think that's my assessment of bad open World games.

alex--she-her-_1_08-09-2025_155457:

Yeah. It's a shame for, Ubisoft in a way because I know that a lot of. The fan base were calling for an Assassin's Creed set in Japan. By the time they've made one ghost, SU has come out and, kind of taken what's good about it and made it like twice as good incorporated a lot of other things into it. So they're gonna struggle. I haven't yet played shadows, but I might wait.

matt-guest513_1_08-09-2025_155451:

I had to stop playing it.

alex--she-her-_1_08-09-2025_155457:

you?

matt-guest513_1_08-09-2025_155451:

I played it for three hours and went, this is rubbish. And then by then it was too, I'd spent 60 pounds on it

alex--she-her-_1_08-09-2025_155457:

Yeah.

matt-guest513_1_08-09-2025_155451:

I. Played it for three hours and so I couldn't return it. And so now it's just sat there on my account going, you spent 60 pounds on us,

alex--she-her-_1_08-09-2025_155457:

Ugh.

matt-guest513_1_08-09-2025_155451:

fool.

alex--she-her-_1_08-09-2025_155457:

But I think for me, something that makes an open world bad is. Predictable story and repetitive questlines where you know what the outcome is gonna be because you've already done it like 10 times to try and level up where you have to grind a lot. We think you touched on grinding last session, Jem the grind is, is well, well-known among gamers being an element of a lot of different games. But when it gets in the way of you enjoying. The open world and it feels more like work. That is definitely what makes an open world somewhere. You don't want to spend time. Because all just becomes a little bit samey after a while. I certainly found that towards the end of Assassin's Creeds Origins through to Valhalla, I couldn't actually complete the Valhalla map because I got loads of fatigue from, the same sets of quests over and over. And it just doesn't, didn't excite me after, I think I put in more hours than I have. Into Odyssey, which is a lot, several hundred hours. And I hadn't actually explored the entirety of the map. I think you could pose the question is bigger, better in an open world? I don't think it is always the case. I think you've gotta have a sensibly sized map because otherwise you're never gonna be able to. Cover it all. And what's the point if all of your players don't get to see all of the map that you've created? It is frustrating in that way,

jem_1_08-09-2025_155453:

we talked, in, one of our recent podcasts about how Matt was suggesting that maybe we should say that no one can use nice graphics for games for a bit to actually improve their game design. These open world experiences have suffered a bit from the ease of creating, large areas and visually appealing, spaces to run around in. And I know that there's a ai, thing out at the moment that will let you create a world. You can write a description of your world and it will create a space that you can walk around in with your, first person character invite your friends and all sorts of stuff. As one of my friends said many years ago when they were looking at creating the ability for players to design in game. Items in Ultima Online, we're just gonna have an entire game filled with dildos. That's basically the fear. And to be fair, I suspect that will be happening, but it just goes to show how easy it is now to create these actual interactive worlds and so I think it's become very attractive to. Game designers to create these open worlds. But then they're not thinking about why the player might explore it or how that might impact on the game, and the story that they're trying to tell. It's a shame really, that I haven't played. Some of these games that you've been speaking about, because I like Eldon Ring for example. I would really like to see like what, why does that work? What, what is it that they've done other than create this rich environment?

matt-guest513_1_08-09-2025_155451:

It's like you, if you go to a really nice restaurant where they really know what they're doing and you go, surprise me,

alex--she-her-_1_08-09-2025_155457:

Mm.

matt-guest513_1_08-09-2025_155451:

and they'll bring out this plate, and it's full of stuff that you've never seen before and you don't understand how it's made or what's in it, but you eat it and you take a few bites and you go, oh, the rest of this is gonna be fantastic. And then you go through it like that with bad games. It's like a very dull, bland meal that they think, oh, but it weighs the same as the really nice meal.

alex--she-her-_1_08-09-2025_155457:

Yeah.

matt-guest513_1_08-09-2025_155451:

it's the same

alex--she-her-_1_08-09-2025_155457:

Mm-hmm.

matt-guest513_1_08-09-2025_155451:

the nice meal. But it's one of those things where you take a few bites of it, and just like with Eldon Ring and the really good ones, you take one bite and you go. Or the rest of this is gonna be amazing,

alex--she-her-_1_08-09-2025_155457:

Yeah,

matt-guest513_1_08-09-2025_155451:

That first bite gets you in the door. That's, my experience with Elden Ring

alex--she-her-_1_08-09-2025_155457:

I think, I've only played it for a very small amount compared to you, but I was. Always intrigued about what I would find around the next corner. There's always something unexpected, and it's usually quite weird and kind of grotesque at times. But, you just wanna know what, what is going on and why, why are these creatures and people there and what's going on? Like, there's a lot of mystery to it, I think. You're never sure what's going to happen, whereas I think with the bad. Open worlds, already know what's going to happen before you've done it. That can create a bit of wear

matt-guest513_1_08-09-2025_155451:

you just reminded me of another critical thing.

alex--she-her-_1_08-09-2025_155457:

Hmm.

matt-guest513_1_08-09-2025_155451:

Most of the time, like we've talked about, the different elements make a really good open world game. Most good open world games, have some of them, but the best ones have all of them. One thing I find particularly important is for the main quest to have a, big mystery to it. There's this sort of world overarching, threat that is compelling as you go along. So like in the Witch, you go, oh, where's Siri? We can't find Siri. And in three going where? Why did my dad leave the vault? And where's he gone fall out? Four, where's my son been taken? And these and fall out New Vegas who shot me in the head and left me in the desert. Every time you think of the main question, you go, I don't know what the answer is to that yet. And that brings you back to it, rather than just buttering around the world.

jem_1_08-09-2025_155453:

I feel that open world games are not for me. I can't engage with them, not because I don't want to, but because they. Are so time draining. To fully enjoy them and in order to complete them, you need to spend a lot of time in them. But the more we've talked about it, the more I'm thinking that maybe the issue is that, or it's not that they're open world, it's the way that the designers. Approach the game that they put into that open world.

matt-guest513_1_08-09-2025_155451:

Yeah, it's that feeling of just like with the meal, again, every bite is gonna be worthwhile,

jem_1_08-09-2025_155453:

Hmm.

matt-guest513_1_08-09-2025_155451:

You could sit down for half an hour, you could sit down for five hours, and you guarantee that something worthwhile is gonna happen no matter how long the session is.

alex--she-her-_1_08-09-2025_155457:

It's gotta have a hook. I think it's got to, whether it's like the narrative, whether it's like a really cinematic story. I think that's definitely something that appeals to me, even if you break it down into small chunks, you're still gonna get a twist and a turn every session feel, I think you've gotta decide what is going to make me feel good even after half an hour. Um, is it progressing a skill? Learning a new. Combat technique, unlocking a bit more of the map finding out this new person in the story? there are lots of ways you can break it down into small chunks, for me it always helps to lean more towards the linear open world where there is a really strong narrative push through. kind of keep me coming back, even if I have to leave it for a while, I can come back and if I can get a recap on the story, I can be right. Be like, right, let's pick up where we left off if there's not a strong story or if the story is too repetitive, that's where the problem comes in and tend to lose enthusiasm

jem_1_08-09-2025_155453:

I'm gonna chuck in some more statistics now'cause you know how much I love a statistic, even if I can't say the word. This comes from a research, company called Quant Foundry. They do games research, and sell their research for thousands of pounds. I have not bought their research. I have just read some of their blogs. But, they look at what motivates gamers, what, what are gamers interested in and why do they play games? They look at age and, gender and, and things like that as to to to, to, provide that information so you can understand why they're selling it for so much money, because it's obviously quite valuable to the games industries out there. One of the things they came across was that only 14% of open world game players identify as women. It's like 86% identify as male, women are more motivated by completion, fantasy, immersion, design, customization and story. Whereas men, favor destruction, competition, and action. The same study, also found that the vast majority of, female gamers played merge games and those kind of games. So we're back to this idea that female gamers or female identifying gamers, prefer to play games that are low investment and not as technically challenging, I think is what they came out with. I. Really push back against that because I feel like that's really stereotypical. I think that there are other factors at play within that, but it does mean that we have to ask the question are these open world games excluding women? In particular, if only 14% of women are actually playing these games.

alex--she-her-_1_08-09-2025_155457:

Well, I don't think that statistic is necessarily representative of gaming at large. I think I would push back against it as well. It's interesting because I'm gonna talk about Ghost to shehe me again because basically, I bought it once. I'd recovered from COVID last month as a treat. My partner, Tom and I have been playing it. In the evenings where we can a couple of hours at most. And then basically, once we've done a Quest or an objective we'll swap the controller and let the other person play usually you can split us right down the middle. I like to explore and do puzzles and Tom likes to do all the combat and all the fighting. He'll often say I wanna do some fighting, when I hand him the controller. But the ironic thing is that with Ghost of Oshima, I'm actually better at the combat than he is, which I'm very much enjoying. Being a smug about, when we play together'cause I'm having a better time with it, than he is and, and generally also still enjoying the exploring and, very much that is my wheelhouse. So, yeah, it's an interesting, it's an interesting statistic. To bring up I'm very much enjoying the combat more than I thought I would, which is another big plus for this game it makes me feel like I'm good at combat, which is not usually something I feel in games like this. Particularly if you compare Alden Ring. I was very not good at the combat, but I think those games are very difficult in terms of their combat anyway. But yeah, sorry, I've lost the thread of the question, but, but, I think, yeah, I dunno whether they're more marketed towards men deliberately, but I wouldn't say that I am. Put off by them in any way. Like I am with shooters, I don't feel like those are really games that appeal to me.

jem_1_08-09-2025_155453:

No, the first person shooter is only 7% of people, females.

alex--she-her-_1_08-09-2025_155457:

Yeah,

jem_1_08-09-2025_155453:

Play that. So that's even lower than,

alex--she-her-_1_08-09-2025_155457:

an open world, honestly, since I started playing them anyway. They have become more and more popular and more

jem_1_08-09-2025_155453:

mm-hmm.

alex--she-her-_1_08-09-2025_155457:

I've always loved that style of game,

jem_1_08-09-2025_155453:

I think that even if the statistic is in some way, skewed these are the statistics being passed to the. People making the games. So there is an argument that it's kind of becomes a chicken and egg situation. Like, are open world games less popular with female gamers because they are not being designed with female gamers in mind? I'm not saying that they should be designed for female gamers, I'm just saying with the female gamers in mind. Then they become less attractive to that audience and therefore, we go round and round and round. The same research, found that 69% played those match three. Per merger games, 69% like family and Farm Sims and 42% casual games, but a very healthy 26% were in the RPG category. As we were saying earlier, open world games are sort of synonymous with RPGs really in our, in our

alex--she-her-_1_08-09-2025_155457:

Mm-hmm.

jem_1_08-09-2025_155453:

heads, not, and we recognize that as being incorrect.

matt-guest513_1_08-09-2025_155451:

Yeah, I'm always very skeptical about

jem_1_08-09-2025_155453:

Mm-hmm.

matt-guest513_1_08-09-2025_155451:

The key part of it is the methodology and the sample size.

jem_1_08-09-2025_155453:

270,000 people was the sample size for this, so it's not,

matt-guest513_1_08-09-2025_155451:

it sounds like a

jem_1_08-09-2025_155453:

It's not.

matt-guest513_1_08-09-2025_155451:

it really isn't.

jem_1_08-09-2025_155453:

No,

matt-guest513_1_08-09-2025_155451:

what country they're from,

jem_1_08-09-2025_155453:

absolutely.

matt-guest513_1_08-09-2025_155451:

whether it's global, what the questions are. As I always talk about from yes, minister, the, Humphrey, trying to explain how you manipulate the answers to quizzes are you in favor of national service? Do you want to give young people jobs? Yes. Do you want people to be helping the community? Yes. Are you in favor of national service? Well, yes, of course. Then the other way, do you want to train young kids to kill no? Do you want to give them trained in use of weaponry? No. Are you in favor of national service? No. So those kinds of things, especially when they're selling it for money. Again, I am skeptical of them,

jem_1_08-09-2025_155453:

Hmm.

matt-guest513_1_08-09-2025_155451:

but my opinion on that Open World Games are exclusionary is that they are complex. They are, there aren't any for, beginner gamers, there isn't really an open world game that is. A manageable first step the concepts of the gaming and how gaming works are expanded up into this wider place as opposed to a linear one where you go from here to there, do this and that. We know that it's pretty much half and half people who game in terms of genders. Men probably start gaming earlier, the later you come into gaming, the harder it is to get started. If you've been playing forever, you can play pretty much anything so if someone is getting into gaming later in their life, it's, just not very accessible.

jem_1_08-09-2025_155453:

I'm gonna ask one more question and then we'll, wind it up. What I want to know from both of you is, do you prefer clear endings or endless play when you are approaching your gaming choices?

alex--she-her-_1_08-09-2025_155457:

That's a tricky one. I think, it depends what sort of mood I'm in really what I want to get from my game, in that particular moment in time. Generally I'd say I lean more towards an ending.'Cause I have a lot of guilt around not finishing things. And I think we've discussed this in another episode on the pod.

jem_1_08-09-2025_155453:

Hmm.

alex--she-her-_1_08-09-2025_155457:

I think women. Generally have a lot of guilt about having unfinished things or, or, things and not finishing them and or just having a lot of stuff that they're not doing that they should be doing. which of course is all, all mostly manufactured by a lot of, stigma from society that we should be better. Go and search out episode if you want to hear more about that. I think generally an ending is a good thing. But if you want to just chill out have a, have a bit of a sort of vibe. I often talk about one of my favorite games being absu, where I just go to relax and I've done the story of that. But you can go into meditation mode where you just watch the fish swim around and you can interact with them and, and look at their names and stuff. but you're just basically watching them swim around, which technically is, is, you know. Is it a game? Is it a fish tank? You could, you could, argue either way, but that is not a, that's not an ending. That's an endless experience, I'm happy with both, but I think generally an ending is always nice to have. If it is a very good story, then I would like to be able to end it.

matt-guest513_1_08-09-2025_155451:

In my experience, the best. Open world games or, I don't know, I dunno whether this is like the objective case or just the way that I like to play them. I like to have the, the big overarching quest and it's paced well enough that I, by the time I've finished the main quest, I have experienced most of the stuff in the game. Once you've finished the end quest, it feels like right, the game's finished, you're on. You're on the last legs of it and when the main quest is unfinished, like I've got a lot more freedom in the world.'cause I go right, I've, I've still not that yet. I can spend death stranding. I could spend an entire day just making deliveries and building monorails and not progress anywhere with the plot. I always like to pace myself through the main story rather than rush the end of it and do stuff around the edges.

jem_1_08-09-2025_155453:

Yeah, I think for me, I like to have clear endings. I like to have clear, borders throughout. Actually. I like to know, you know, like I, I really liked in Baldur's Gate three knowing, you know, you're in the, you finished the first act. Knowing that it had three acts. It gives you a feel for how far through you are, how you're doing. And I like having that kind of structure within the game. An open world. Can have a linear game, so for me, I think that an open world, but a clear ending and a clear pathway to take through it with the option to. Go and look around that corner or explore that forest or whatever. We've barely touched on the whole issue of ai and I wanted to do like a whole bit on that and we've run out of time, but I think we will have to come back to it because I think that AI. Is going to completely blow 90% of what we've been talking about out of the water because with AI you will hopefully be able to have, really good quality AI generated NPCs and stories. Now I think that there are some. Big risks and issues around what that will mean for diversity and inclusivity and what that will mean for the representation of people within the game world and all of those things. But I feel like that is a, that's an episode in itself, so I think we will have to come back to that. There's, a lot more to discuss. It's like it's a never ending pod. Cast topic like the never ending games. So on that note, I will thank you both very much for, exploring this world with me. We will be out every Thursday. We're exploring with some longer format episodes, so let us know how that works for you, thank you both.

matt-guest513_1_08-09-2025_155451:

Bye-bye.

alex--she-her-_1_08-09-2025_155457:

Bye.