Meeting Wayfarer's Rest - Sanding Tables and Crafting Community (Episode 263)

What does it take to turn a passion for gaming into a thriving high street fixture? In this episode, Alex and Jem sit down with Sarah and Katie, the founders of Wayfarer’s Rest in Godalming, Surrey, UK to discuss their journey from non-business backgrounds to creating a beloved community-led board game cafe.

We dive into the "heart and soul" of the project. From the literal building of the counter to the never-ending sanding of the tables to the quirks of launching a business in a male-dominated industry and the hidden gotcha's of success. Sarah and Katie share that 'impossible' is not in their vocabulary and how they’ve built a space where everyone is welcome to join the game.

In this episode, we discuss:

The Power of Community: How Wayfarer’s Rest has become a firm fixture on the local high street in just seven months.

Gaming Roots: The joys of finding chosen family through board gaming, tabletop gaming and D&D.

The Cafe Advantage: Why board game cafes are the perfect way to "try before you buy" without dropping £50 on a new game.

Whether you’re a seasoned tabletop veteran or just curious about your local gaming scene, this uplifting conversation is packed with inspiration and a few recommendations for your next game night.

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Transcript

Speaker 0:15

Hello everyone. Welcome back to another episode of Gaming the System, the podcast where three intersectional feminists examine gaming and games through a feminist lens. Today, I'm your host, Alex, and I'm joined by Gem. Before we get started, if you want to support us, you can subscribe to our Patreon at patreon.com/gaming the system for some exclusive content. Or you can send us a one-off donation via PayPal to our email address. We are gaming the system@gmail.com.

Alex 0:52

Hello and welcome everybody to another episode of Gaming the System This week it is myself, Alex, and I've got Jem we've got two lovely guests on the show this week. and Sarah from Wayfarer's Rest, my local board game cafe, they're here to chat about board game cafes in general and their journey towards creating the wonderful space that is the Wayfarer's Rest we have touched on this topic in the pod previously, so if you haven't listened to that episode yet, please do go back and check it out.

alex--she-her-_2_01-28-2026_210445 1:31

it's just Gem and me, we had the most wonderful interview, with Katie and Sarah who, have started the business from completely non-business backgrounds. It's just a really wonderful community led. Board gaming space, and we got to hear all about it. Jem, how did you think our podcast interview went?

jem_2_01-28-2026_210444 1:51

I thought it was so interesting to hear them speaking about the process that they'd gone through to setting up the cafe, the sort of practical stuff. The fact that they're so, they're so hands on with

alex--she-her-_2_01-28-2026_210445 2:02

Mm,

jem_2_01-28-2026_210444 2:03

They mentioned twice about, the sanding

alex--she-her-_2_01-28-2026_210445 2:06

yes.

jem_2_01-28-2026_210444 2:06

to do in the venue. They've really put their heart and soul into the project as you mentioned, they talk about how they are community led

alex--she-her-_2_01-28-2026_210445 2:19

Hmm

jem_2_01-28-2026_210444 2:19

really are, they

alex--she-her-_2_01-28-2026_210445 2:20

completely.

jem_2_01-28-2026_210444 2:22

The events that they run, only work when it's something that the community really

alex--she-her-_2_01-28-2026_210445 2:29

Hmm.

jem_2_01-28-2026_210444 2:29

And I think that's really nice to see that. But I think from my perspective, as somebody who loves gaming, loves board gaming, thinks everyone should do all of these things a lot more. It's just really exciting to hear how much the community is engaging with what they're doing and how many people are supporting them and getting behind this. This project, I was kind of like, I just feel like, oh, you know, maybe I should be opening up.

alex--she-her-_2_01-28-2026_210445 2:57

It's definitely.

jem_2_01-28-2026_210444 2:58

the first time

alex--she-her-_2_01-28-2026_210445 2:59

Yeah.

jem_2_01-28-2026_210444 2:59

that on this podcast.

alex--she-her-_2_01-28-2026_210445 3:00

Oh, it's definitely a very affirming chat and it's really positive as well. I feel really uplifted by our conversation with both Katie and Sarah. They've only been open seven months, which it doesn't feel like for me, at all. But I really think they've done so well to make themselves a firm fixture on the high street, and hopefully we'll continue for many years to come. We talk about the challenges, they face some of the unexpected things they've come across and also what brought them together. To start thinking about opening up a board game, cafe and in general, where their love of gaming first sparked and I think that echoed a lot of what we've talked about on the pod before about, finding gaming in childhood through family or through, a chosen family as they put it which again is something we often talk about on the pod, is finding that gaming community can really help you feel. Like, you've found your tribe.

jem_2_01-28-2026_210444 4:00

And what I found really interesting is when we asked them about their experience as two women

alex--she-her-_2_01-28-2026_210445 4:06

Mm,

jem_2_01-28-2026_210444 4:06

a business in a generally male dominated industry, I thought their response to that question was really interesting and. Surprising actually, but

alex--she-her-_2_01-28-2026_210445 4:19

Yes.

jem_2_01-28-2026_210444 4:20

think I'll be interested to hear what people think about that when they've listened to the episode.

alex--she-her-_2_01-28-2026_210445 4:25

I was expecting there to be maybe more apprehension on their part. I know I certainly feel apprehensive, but perhaps that's, a cultural thing. They're both from America, perhaps they're a little bit more, ready to go then British people might be, we're a little more reserved and we're just a bit more like, oh, maybe we should have a cup of tea first or something.

jem_2_01-28-2026_210444 4:47

Did open a cafe though.

alex--she-her-_2_01-28-2026_210445 4:48

It's true. It's true. They were, they were all about tea. It's very important. I'll tell you something that didn't come up in the interview that I love about the cafe as well they have loyalty cards like every cafe, but the difference at Wayfairs is that once you get to the magic number 10, you can do a dice roll, to get a random drink for free. Which is a really fun way of trying something new. And all of their drinks are d and d themed as well.

jem_2_01-28-2026_210444 5:14

I love that.

alex--she-her-_2_01-28-2026_210445 5:15

So they're all named after the different, character types like a rogue or a cleric or whatever else, or a fighter, you know, they're all like themed around those different character types, which I think is very fun. And it adds a little bit of, spice to your visit as well. If you're like, oh, today's the day I get to do the D roll for my mystery drink. So yeah, that's definitely another fun aspect as well. And also I really enjoyed our discussion of favorite board games or tabletop games as well.'cause I think that's one of the joyful things about gaming and finding other people who game is just. Discovering new games through them as well.

jem_2_01-28-2026_210444 5:57

Yes, absolutely. I think that's one of the things that's really good about board game cafes is

alex--she-her-_2_01-28-2026_210445 6:02

Mm,

jem_2_01-28-2026_210444 6:03

do that without having to

alex--she-her-_2_01-28-2026_210445 6:04

yeah.

jem_2_01-28-2026_210444 6:05

50, 60, 70 pounds on, the whole game

alex--she-her-_2_01-28-2026_210445 6:08

Mm,

jem_2_01-28-2026_210444 6:09

I think that's, a really positive thing.

alex--she-her-_2_01-28-2026_210445 6:12

I'm just really glad that we were able to have the conversation with both Katie and Sarah it's really nice to get that in depth behind the scenes look at their journey towards opening up Wayfarer's and, the thoughts that went behind it as well. I was really glad to get that insight from them both. Well, thank you Jem. and we hope you enjoy this episode

Alex 6:39

Katie and Sarah what got you into gaming and what helped you get onto this journey of creating this board game community around which you then aspired to open Wayfarer's? Rest

Sarah 6:51

That was a very big question.

Katie 6:53

I grew up playing board games, like my family would, do things called, media fests where we wouldn't watch any screens or TVs.

Alex 7:03

Oh, wow.

Katie 7:04

this is back we're talking the nineties, early two thousands, so we didn't have cell phones really anyway, but we would, uh, yeah, spend that time playing variety of board games and things like that. Lots of playing cards and stuff. I personally always grew up with games. It was something to do, um, that wasn't screen time, it was social. I'm one of four siblings, similar ages, so there was lots of competition for me personally, that's kind of where my love of board game started. But yeah, so, and I think, um, when Sarah and I met, which was, quite a while ago now,

Sarah 7:48

Yeah. Thir

Katie 7:49

years

Sarah 7:50

12 years ago.

Katie 7:51

One of the things we connected over was our love of board games. That's like,

Sarah 7:57

I,

Katie 7:57

where my background with board game starts.

Sarah 8:00

yeah, I think similar. Um. I grew up playing them with my friends, a whole range of different kinds. I remember just recently that when I was a kid there was this one space game that I would play by myself I have a twin sister, and older brothers. I think gaming is just a great equalizer, which I'm sure we'll talk about later. When Katie and I met, I had recently, within the previous years before we met, looking into wanting to play Dungeons Dragons and learning how to play. When we first met, one of the first things that I asked her, was, do you wanna learn how to play Dungeons and Dragons?

Katie 8:35

Yeah.

Sarah 8:37

And so then that just kind of kicked that all off. And so we learned how to play DD together. We taught lots of our friends and that just kind of spiraled I think from there and our love of gaming, and really I think it, it is not just gaming, but it's the community that's built up, builds up around it and all the friends and, chosen family that we found through it. Both of us being expats from the states, we don't have really close family here or any family here.

Alex 9:07

That's That's such an interesting point

Sarah 9:10

and so we kind of found our family.

Alex 9:12

Definitely something we've touched on, before about how it can help to bring, your tribe together,

Katie 9:18

mm-hmm.

Alex 9:19

A, a lovely phrase that, Jem uses. It quite a lot. I think it's, really lovely that, you can essentially find people who you can connect with through gaming as well. Thank you for, explaining how you got into gaming, we've touched on how important it is to discover gaming. Even if you discover it later it still has a massive impact on your life, and helping you again. I think one of the key things about, um, with other people, say over a board game or a tabletop game is that social aspect as well. Which is something that you definitely create in Wayfarer's Rest in your board game cafe. So what first sparked the idea of creating that space together and how was that journey?

Katie 10:11

One of the things we had recently gotten into, were immersive experiences like, cinema and things like that where, you have a, a space where you enter in and you want to, immerse yourself in that. So one of the ideas was like, oh, wouldn't it be cool to have a space where we could play tabletop role playing games and really feel like we're in that tavern, or like, this is where we collect our quests, or just that kind of immersion. I have a background in hospitality. So I knew that I had the skills to open, a cafe or some sort of, hospitality kind of space. But, something that people could just come in and feel like, yeah, this is where I wanna spend a bunch of time playing with other people was, really exciting thought. And then also to do that together'cause there's, there's no way, we could do it individually, by ourselves, but

Sarah 11:15

No.

Katie 11:16

Sarah is excellent at bringing people together i'm a little bit shyer on that front. I meet people through people.

Alex 11:23

Yeah.

Katie 11:23

Hey, I

Alex 11:24

Mm-hmm.

Katie 11:25

I'm into this thing. Like, come join me, do this thing. So having the opportunity to, explore that,

Alex 11:33

Hmm,

Katie 11:33

was exciting in that moment of being like, Hey, what if we created a space that people wanted to join us in?

Sarah 11:43

Yeah.

Katie 11:45

We explored it, but

Alex 11:46

hmm.

Katie 11:46

was in 2020,

Alex 11:48

Yeah.

Katie 11:49

very early 2020 before the world stopped. So from there is kind of how Wayfarer's League developed because Sarah had a community of people in her back pocket anyway, that's just like, Hey, let's put our club online, through Discord. We kind of started Wayfarer's League as an online server for tabletop role playing games,

Alex 12:14

Hmm.

Katie 12:14

which we spent the first part of our idea

Alex 12:19

Yeah.

Katie 12:19

we didn't have a physical space.

Sarah 12:21

Yeah.

Katie 12:22

in a physical space, even if we had

Alex 12:23

Mm-hmm.

Sarah 12:24

I think in 2020, that was one of the things we were like, okay, we can't do our cafe now, but what does it look like in this environment and this climate? Because everyone was moving their games online that's where our heart was within tabletop role playing games. It's so beneficial for people. A lot of my in-person games were moving online and I had a lot of friends beyond the same with like, Katie and I weren't living in the same town at that point. And the game, the communities that we were playing, like when we were playing together before I had moved away. And so it's like, we know all these different people. Let's just move Wayfarers online to a broader audience.

Alex 13:06

mm.

Sarah 13:07

One of the reasons that I really wanted to do that was because online games were notorious and still are, for not being consistent and not necessarily being safe.

Alex 13:15

Mm.

Sarah 13:16

People especially women or minorities will join games and then ends up being a very toxic environment and a negative experience. Or peoples will join games and they don't even get off the ground or they'll play one or two sessions and they fizzle out. So I really wanted to cultivate a space, and to have consistent, safe games for people to learn enjoy and make friends online. That's really the, at the heart of Wayfarer's League and it still continues which is wonderful.

Alex 13:47

Yeah.

Sarah 13:48

And because of the community. That we were able to make, Katie and I were able to co cultivate the culture in our little pocket and corner of the internet, we were able to, have this community that ultimately fed into Wayfarer's rest and that environment and culture is able to carry on, in a physical space, which is lovely.

Alex 14:11

I'm really glad you mentioned the culture of Wayfairs I think it's important, to mention that because, I sent you a little article, which Jem sent us all about the into the positive effects of tabletop role playing games, and then being used in health and social care interventions

Sarah 14:30

yes.

Alex 14:30

essentially helping to improve confidence assertiveness, real life social engaJement,

Sarah 14:37

Yeah. Yeah,

Alex 14:38

players, which is what the article says.

Sarah 14:40

a hundred percent.

Alex 14:41

Part of creating that. Positive effect is about the culture of the space which you come into, whether that's online or in a physical space. It's really, I'm really glad that you highlighted that because you mentioned, often in online spaces you're not sure what you're coming into. There are those negative toxic environments there as well. You've gotta look at it from both sides yes. Board games in themselves have a positive impact, but they have to also have the right culture and environment to be played in as well. Dunno. Gem, have you had any thoughts on that

Jem 15:15

I think um, gaming can be quite a, It feels like it's board in a lot of ways because it's quite expensive to buy some of the, the big games Getting involved in, DD or can feel quite daunting because it feels like there's a lot of, barriers. There's a lot lot to learn. You have to go and sit with a bunch of people. There's been quite a lot of negative press about it. Stranger Things has definitely brought d and d into the mainstream again. And my husband's Swedish and d and d is massive over there and always was, and has much, has had a real resurgence since, the pandemic along with many other board games. I think that cafes are a really great, uh, space to do that in because you're kind of ticking so many boxes of, you're still able to socialize. You can eat and drink and, hang out with your friends and you can try out games without having to pay huge amounts of money up front. It's a fabulous opportunity to go and try it out, go to a cafe with people who maybe have more experience and just get, feel for it all. I'm very positive about board games in general, and I play online and I play in person. I was playing this weekend with some friends who were sort of just getting into their hardcore gaming. It's, such a, a nice space to be able to sit and chat and hang out without that kind of intensity of face-to-face kind of communication I've played online games and I absolutely hear what you're saying. They are not, rarely are they safe spaces. And when you do find the sort of safe online space, it tends to be a little pocket. And at any moment that pocket can be, invaded. So I think, creating these kind of physical environments where people can explore gaming is excellent And so good for mental health I suppose what I'm really interested in is, you went from this online, set up to in person physical space at a time when so many cafes and restaurants and other physical spaces were really struggling. How was that for you?

Sarah 17:49

Um,

Alex 17:50

Gosh.

Sarah 17:50

mean, we've we've been open uh, and I think it kind of, we, when we opened it was kind of a, we need to open now or and because of where we're at. Um, and at the beginning of summer, was key because we needed. to get all the, the kids outta school and very busy summer, which was what we needed. Um,

Alex 18:13

Mm-hmm.

Sarah 18:14

And I think this first didn't know what to expect. We are learning the, the waves and the and the, uh, the of the community around us. And we're heavily community led. And think one of the things that really worked in our benefit was that we had already been working for two years and building a community locally. We started an board game club two years ago, and so we already had. Uh, a core group of people who not only are coming weekly to support us now,'cause we continued board game night at the rest, seven 10. It's a great, great time. Um, but we kept that going, but that helped us build the I'm gonna get emotional if I talk. It is, it's, It um, I guess just magical. It was wonderful. It was like we our gaming geeky community that come and help, you know, demolish and then build shelves and help games and paint and um, them it wouldn't have been possible. I think,

Alex 19:16

Hm,

Sarah 19:16

um, the welcome that we had, I think specifically God alman really needed location is a million times important. Um. Having a place that people could go to that isn't a pub, they can meet people and do something a little bit different, um, really made a big difference. And the fact that we

Katie 19:37

Shameless

Sarah 19:37

the really all due to Katie's. I mean, I mean, with Katie's years of food, um, across the board, within the have, um, an expectation and a, a bar, um, that everything needs to meet in order for us to actually so we taste everything before we put it onto the shelves. Um, the do our best to also make sure that it is like at that standard I work, games as well on our shelves. Yeah, but like all over different cakes, there're, you know, we do as much vegan options as we can to make sure that the quality is at the, the level that we want. And I think that's one of the reasons why we have done as well as we have, because of what we offer. And beyond that, The environment that we've built as I, I'm just gonna keep going. The environment that we've built and we worked so hard to make, one of the main words that we kept saying that we wanted it to be was cozy. We wanted a cozy place that people wanted to come to again and and different. Um, and we are storytellers at heart as you, if you stop us, we will tell you the lore of'cause there's story behind all of our choices. Um, I think people maybe not are fully aware of it, but they feel feel it. When you come in, you can tell that.

Alex 20:56

I

Sarah 20:56

We have put a lot of thought behind

Alex 20:58

visitor.

Sarah 20:59

In that space.

Alex 21:00

I think one of the things, well my partner and I were incredibly excited when we knew you were gonna be opening. There is a board game cafe in

Jem 21:09

for that

Alex 21:10

isn't too far from here, but it's not accessible to me as a wheelchair user. So I often had to like, weigh up whether I'd be okay going on foot and getting a bit tired or if I could just not bother going out and have people come around here instead so having a place I can go to and goming local, that's successful is, is tick box number one for me. Whenever I go in, is always really cozy as you've mentioned. And I feel like you are incredibly inclusive and accessible, not just in terms of like physical. but also like providing the options around food. and when you think about the stereotypical idea of board game cafes and the types of people that go there, I wonder if that's something that perhaps feel like you want to push against and maybe challenge a bit. you I certainly notice when I go in, there's so many families enjoying themselves, having such a good time, people of all ages actually. Which is something that people who aren't used to going into board game cafes would expect to see. and I think you've really. Settled into the community incredibly well helped of course by Wayfarer's League. You've built yourselves up really well over the last six or seven months, and I'm always really excited to see all the different types of events you're putting on. So those events, especially, this is kind of a two part question. With those events, do you feel like that's a way for you to hold space for parts of the community?

Katie 22:54

Yeah, I think that, of the things, we are finding is with our events, it's really important to be kind of community led because we could just hear someone say, oh, this might be a good idea. We put an event up, but nobody buys tickets. It really has to be like Hey, I've got a group of people who would love to do this event. Tell us when it's posted. And we will like the troops and we'll come to it. If it's not community led, it doesn't seem to work. Even the events that we are adding this year, for example, we are starting a monthly LGBTQA plus board game club on a Tuesday once a month. We are doing a singles mixer around Valentine's Day. To have different so that people don't feel like, oh, this is

Alex 23:47

I think that's such a. Fun idea as well.

Katie 23:49

We've got a lot of uptake for these things. Just seeing what's missing in the community, that doesn't necessarily have to do, specifically with board games. It's just like, let's get people in that share something in common and. the board games, as Sarah mentioned at the beginning, as an equalizer to get to know people. So yeah, I think, I think that, another thing we're aiming to do is a, and toddler board game club because we know of creator who does, board games specifically for two and a half to five year olds, like, something in the afternoon that actually, hey, we've got a great space in the back room. Let's move the tables outta the way, put mats on the floor and get parents playing board games with their kiddos, like really young. They're very, very cute.

Sarah 24:43

They're really cute games as well. I'm very excited about them.

Katie 24:47

we've, we've just now, the last few weeks had a group of new moms come in after their baby massage group and just like saying, we love this place so much, so the, the spectrum of the community that we see come in is pretty amazing I think something that also links back to the previous question about, opening hospitality in a time where hospitality is not doing well. Is, as Sarah mentioned, location, location, location, but also filling a need in a specific location that isn't even close to being there already. Having that USP there's nothing like this on the high street and even though there may be a ton of coffee shops, not one like ours, and, leaning into, yeah, you know

Sarah 25:42

Yeah.

Katie 25:42

It's weird you're coming to board game cafe for coffee, but like, it gives us a chance to explain everything that's available people walk away being like, man, this is an experience it's not just there, it's something to do. It's something to experience. It's something, to make memories doing as well.

Jem 25:59

I love your passion and I love that you've seen this gap in the market and just gone for it. I really like the aesthetic of your cafe we've got a dice box in my local city. It's got a lot going for it, but it's very modern. It's all sort of white clean very loud and it isn't cozy. And when I'm playing board games, I want comfort'cause you're sat for a long time and you're thinking for a long time. So, you need to have that, coziness. I love that you've fully leaned into that, cozy gaming, oldie worldy tavern look and feel. I think, the idea of properly embracing that, aesthetic is a really positive thing. As you say, I imagine there are many cafes in the area, but none of them are what you are offering, which is just awesome. I just really wish you'd come and open one in my town.

Katie 27:00

Oh, oh man. Oh.

Sarah 27:04

We'd love to. It is just one step at a time, I think one thing that you had mentioned about noise is that that was one of the things that we were very aware of when we were fitting out the space is sound. The space was originally a hairdresser, and so it was mirrors, it was white, it was, we haven't been able to change the floor, but it is what it is. And so it was a very echoy long hallway essentially. And so the questions we were asking ourselves, okay, what can we do to break up the sound? What kind of lighting do we need? Because we want it to feel cozy, but we don't want it to be blaring. And so those were also in our mind when we were choosing our lighting and choosing the placement of things and the decor. And there's still things I want to do to help break up the sound even more because I know it's still an issue with different areas, but it's not as bad as it could have been, if'cause those things are very important, especially because games tend to draw neurodivergent folks who are very sensitive to those things. Um, and I think that's also one of the things we have music playing in our in our cafe. However, the music doesn't carry all the way to the back room very well. And so there was a question, do we want to put in speakers? It's like, actually no, let's leave that, space as quieter so that if people come in that. are sensitive to that, they can sit back there instead. And so there's a space for that.

Alex 28:32

What is the most unexpected thing that has happened in your time running Wayfarer's for you?

Katie 28:41

VAT

Alex 28:42

Oh,

Katie 28:43

now it's

Sarah 28:44

Yeah.

Katie 28:45

When you are successful, obviously you feel as though you're doing really well, but that also means you have to. Pay a lot more than you

Alex 28:56

Yeah.

Katie 28:57

Done in the first couple months because it wasn't quite successful, if that makes

Alex 29:02

Mm-hmm.

Katie 29:02

So it's just kind of like, oh, that bill's way different to the last one. Surprise. But, but it's, it's it learning curve,

Alex 29:12

Hmm.

Katie 29:12

for two people who've never had this kind of business

Alex 29:15

Yeah.

Katie 29:16

that, haven't seen the inner workings of what goes on behind the scenes in a hospitality business. And kind of discovering them as we go. I think that's something, obviously someone who would've gone to business school would've like kind of, oh We know that's a thing. You kind of take those surprises and go, okay, cool. That will never take us by surprise again.

Alex 29:41

Hmm.

Katie 29:42

Never. And it only has to happen once. But yeah, from that, I think it's just learning. You know, it, look like you're doing fantastically well. And we are, I think for any, hospitality business in its first year, everyone keeps saying you're not going to see any profit until three years. Um, find that hard to believe. I if that makes sense.

Alex 30:10

mm-hmm.

Katie 30:11

surprising,

Alex 30:11

Yeah.

Katie 30:12

I think that has to do with the reception of the community.

Alex 30:15

Yeah.

Katie 30:16

but yeah, I don't know, Sarah, I don't know if that's the most surprising thing for you but that was definitely for me.

Sarah 30:22

Like Katie said, I think one of the things that I knew going into all of this was that there were going to be bumps in the road across the board, and we were going to have adapt change, otherwise we weren't going to succeed. and that was, that's what we've done from the beginning. It's okay, this isn't working, so we'll adjust and change and we'll change the date of this or, we will start adjusting our costs on this side of it. And I'm trying to think what is the most surprising. I think what is really nice is that as business owners, the team that we have built. It is really solid and the comradery amongst them is really lovely to see. Um, and I think just the culture that we've been able to help establish, not just on the front of the shop with all the customers and whatnot and trying to maintain that, but I think behind the curtain as it were, um, it's fun to watch those friendships grow

Alex 31:24

Mm

Sarah 31:24

and how together as well.'cause I've never had employees before. Um, I've never been a manager before. My background is in visual effects, I worked as a production coordinator and so I did have a team of artists, but. I managed mostly what they were working on And I worked with the lead VFX artist and after that I went into photography on my own. I had my own business, but it was just me. This is the first time we have had a team, Katie's manages them and she does a brilliant job. She's so good with them. Um, I think it's just really lovely to see that and seeing how it's cultivated and how well Katie cultivates that team and that the culture within Wayfarer's rest as a business.

Alex 32:07

I wondered if as two women starting a business together, women in

Sarah 32:13

Okay.

Alex 32:13

Come up against barriers that men do not in some ways, and that's another aspect of the podcast we also like to talk about feminism here. I guess you've talked about coming in from completely different backgrounds. It must have been pretty daunting. Is it still daunting now

Katie 32:29

I have had, in my time in hospitality, which is over the past 10 years, the most fantastic bosses there was not any, discrimination when it comes to promotions, pay, et cetera. especially gender discrimination. If there was any hint of chauvinist attitudes, people would lose their job for that. I had a great. Example set for me. It made me feel like, this is possible. Like in my previous life, the gender setbacks were very real, but in my hospitality life it was not. The only time ever, it had nothing to do, us setting this up there was never any thought like, we are two women doing this thing. It's gonna be hard. I did not have that thought at all. We have very supportive partners as well. My partner stays home full-time. Like stay at home parent so that I can do this thing. That's just my story. The only time it's kind of peaked its head is when we have customers who come in and our male employees are addressed and seen as the owners us.

Alex 33:46

That's really interesting.

Katie 33:47

Yeah. So when they're talking to us, they will not be talking to us. They will be addressing the male employee behind us like very strange. Super strange. And the male employees have even said like, I don't know why these customers keep thinking we're the owners. I'm like, it's because you're not women, but that's okay. And they're fantastic.

Alex 34:08

Yeah.

Katie 34:08

greatest group of guys.

Alex 34:09

They're lovely.

Katie 34:10

It's crazy. We are women in our forties with kids that have done this. Like, that's crazy. Just to think about it. I never ever thought was a barrier that it was impossible. Like never.

Sarah 34:25

No, impossible isn't really in my vocabulary. It's surreal for sure. I, don't think it's fully sunk in yet. Um, and we're seven months in. I feel like from when we had said, let's do this thing, the way that I operate as a person is that there's this thing I want to do. Well, let's do it.

Alex 34:46

mm.

Sarah 34:47

I don't really think about what that means until I'm in the thick of it. And I, because of my background of, uh, production coordination and whatnot, is that that's very much project management. And so it was all about timelines And things take. And I love organizing and so. We said, okay, let's do this thing, we, um, I'm gonna give a shout out to, uh, mark who owns Good Game, good Game's, another board Game cafe If without him and his input, we also would not actually have a cafe because I think he gave us his, his, uh, financials that help him get, get the startup loan, but also his, business plan. And we were able to adapt that to our needs and giving us that starting point really helped jumpstart. We probably would've gotten there eventually, but without we would probably still be working on it.

Katie 35:35

Because it was, there was a moment of, oh my God, how do we start this? like,'cause we know we have to get

Sarah 35:41

Yeah.

Katie 35:42

Startup loan, like, because, you know, we are not wealthy people. Like, okay, we need help here.

Sarah 35:48

Yeah.

Katie 35:49

Decided, okay, we're gonna go to, uh, the board games, expo up in Birmingham. Let's like go, just talk people's ears off. And, it was on the last day. We did meet Mark from Good Game and he literally had just got approval for his business loan and we're like, how did you do that? He's like, send me your email and I will send you all the stuff. And we were like, yes. We had only just started our in-person board game club a couple weeks previous to that moment. So it was two years from when we met Mark to actually, you know, we secured, the loan. That whole journey feels like a fever dream, a little bit it doesn't feel as long as now coming onto three years ago,

Sarah 36:36

I think the the whole time that we were fitting out, every now and then I would stop and look at the space and be like, Katie, we're doing it. and really I think that's the thing is that it was kind of like.

Katie 36:46

yeah. Oh, yeah. There was no going back.

Sarah 36:48

Stepping onto a train and suddenly it's going too fast, you can't get off.

Katie 36:51

At no point I felt there was any panic. Like it was just kind of more of a like, how long are the lawyers gonna talk? Okay. How long? And then when we were kidding out, what? It took us 12 weeks to kid out. Was it weeks, I didn't see beyond the sanding.

Sarah 37:10

10 weeks,

Katie 37:11

I'm, I'm not gonna lie. I like, felt like the whole 12 weeks was sanding walls. Like it was awful.

Sarah 37:16

I think, yeah, there were points where I, I essentially would say, okay, we have to stop this and We need to move on

Katie 37:20

I would've still be there standing if it wasn't for Sarah, for sure.

Sarah 37:24

That, that's my project management side. Like, we, we have to keep going. We need to go to the next step. It, I think it was 12 weeks before we actually had a dishwasher.

Katie 37:33

That whole journey is really fun to think about because it

Sarah 37:37

Yeah. That was mad.

Katie 37:40

Absolute like. And changing it to something that, I don't know.

Sarah 37:45

Yeah.

Katie 37:45

great. It was scary Sometimes nail guns are scary. But, also we did it all ourselves, so we

Alex 37:52

yeah.

Katie 37:52

didn't hire contractors, except for plumbers and electricians. We didn it all with the help of the community, the board game club that Sarah mentioned. That was

Sarah 38:01

Yeah.

Katie 38:02

So when we walk in, it's like, oh, we built this thing. We built it.

Sarah 38:05

So if you, when you walk into the rest and you see the coffee bar, Katie and I built that.

Katie 38:09

put in the floor in the den, like, it's oh, I never did this before. Okay, let's just do it.

Sarah 38:13

We built some walls.

Katie 38:14

yeah, we did, we built this. which is actually great'cause it's like the, the ultimate Craft project, right?

Alex 38:21

Yeah, you could definitely say that.

Sarah 38:23

I could give anybody a tour.

Katie 38:25

And, and it's not done. So watch the,

Alex 38:27

Oh, you've heard it first. Additions are on

Sarah 38:30

It's not done.

Alex 38:31

exciting. But yeah, no, I think it's

Sarah 38:33

Yeah.

Alex 38:34

You exist as a space. And also just as people, because representation's really important and like you mentioned the attitudes of some of those customers that have come in, obviously it's not everybody. And hopefully we'll continue to keep pushing against those stereotypical ideas. And I think it is not just in gaming, I think it's generally for every business people might make an assumption that a man is the manager of X business or Y business. But I think gaming, there's definitely still. Perception that gaming is a male hobby first and foremost. Yeah.

Sarah 39:15

Well, absolutely.

Alex 39:16

And that's something that we hear on the pod, and I think yourselves at Wayfairs are challenging just by existing as well.

Katie 39:22

Yeah. Well, I, I'd actually like to give like shout out to our landlords, like, this is, this is quite amazing, is that apparently as soon as they saw our offer, they wanted to accept it,

Alex 39:38

Wonderful.

Katie 39:39

because they said, oh, this is what Godalming High Street

Alex 39:42

Mm

Katie 39:42

So this is a family run trust. They have the one property on the high Street. It's not like they have a ton, but I wish they did because they really think about the community even though they don't live in it. The estate agent was like, no, that's too risky. And they

Alex 39:59

oh.

Katie 39:59

we want them. like, basically handpicked us because of the space.

Alex 40:05

Yeah.

Katie 40:05

And the trustee, we're in touch

Sarah 40:07

Yeah.

Katie 40:08

a woman

Alex 40:09

Mm-hmm.

Katie 40:10

she is fantastic and, like anytime we have anything that we need with the building, whatever, she's on it, she's

Alex 40:16

Mm

Katie 40:16

Interestingly enough, someone was inquiring about a piece of the property, and asked for landlord details and was like, oh, can you make sure to give his details to me?

Alex 40:29

mm

Katie 40:29

I was like, I'll make sure she gets them. I was

Alex 40:32

Yeah.

Katie 40:32

like why do you

Alex 40:35

Mm,

Katie 40:35

that the person who's the trustee of the land, the property is a man

Alex 40:39

mm-hmm.

Katie 40:40

not?

Alex 40:41

Yeah.

Katie 40:42

Yeah.

Alex 40:42

Oh, definitely. Wonderful.

Sarah 40:44

Yeah.

Alex 40:44

I can't let you leave. This without asking you some gaming related questions, obviously.

Katie 40:50

Sure.

Alex 40:50

D and d brought you together. Is it your favorite game or are there other options out there, would you say for yourselves?

Sarah 40:59

It's like asking to pick a favorite child. No, I, I have a couple favorite Ttrp Gs, but I also have favorite board games. I think Katie and I are very similar in that a lot of our top games are narrative based. So story led games, one of them being a shared favorite being time stories.

Katie 41:16

love it.

Sarah 41:17

Um, time stories is a co-op game where you are time. agents sent to a specific time and you go and inhabit a body in that time. Like Quantum leap. And you're exploring that world in that time trying to find an anomaly. And you have to fix it. One of the things I love about it is creative mechanics that help support the theme. And so if I get a game that makes me gasp and giggle, delightedly Time S tories does that many, many times over. And what I like also is that there's different stories that you can buy, like expansions, but they're different. So you have a base board, but then You can bring in the different games to it to play different scenarios. They're replayable as well. You can try to be faster in your time. That's top on the list.

Katie 42:05

Love It It was a happy was a happy accident. That one, discovering that one. one of the things that Sarah will always say is like, we are role players and

Sarah 42:13

Yeah.

Katie 42:14

part of the like, story like storytelling games, like, but I'd say one of my absolute favorites, and we haven't got a copy yet in the library, uh, is Betrayal House on the Hill.

Sarah 42:27

I knew you were gonna say that.

Katie 42:29

I know. As soon as I said we don't have a copy, um, it's because we're on a waiting list for it. That game was kind of a gateway drug game for me a little bit to cooperative. Gig board games.

Alex 42:40

Hmm.

Katie 42:41

Like, you know, there's all the competitive ones and stuff, but I love a cooperative game. And another one that is an absolute favorite, and I will recommend it as the perfect intro to a cooperative game. Even like more than Pandemic would be alien based off the film.

Alex 43:00

We love Alien. It's so good.

Katie 43:02

it's such a it's such an easy talk through to a table that's never played a cooperative game before.

Sarah 43:07

yeah,

Katie 43:08

I will, I will pick it off the shelf. And um, people are just like, oh yeah, that's really good. And I recommended it to one of my family members, um, as a gift who then sent me a message being like, that game is truly terrifying.

Alex 43:21

Especially if you put the soundtrack on in the background as well. You need to do that.

Katie 43:25

yeah, it's good. It's good if you're an

Sarah 43:27

yeah, yeah,

Katie 43:29

it's so good. Uh, 100%. And that's, that's the immersive thing is um, I mean. Countless hours. Ted, Sarah and I would play betrayal and we would put on really really creepy haunted,

Sarah 43:41

yeah. Music box music in the background. Ted's my husband, by the way. I think what's nice about both and Betrayal is that the mechanics aren't too over the top. So they're they're fairly easy to grasp. Um, so they're just gamey enough, if you know what I mean.

Alex 43:58

Yeah, definitely. It's funny you should mention, those two are actually both games that, my partner introduced to me. Betrayal House on the Hill was a game that Tom had at home in his parents' home, And it's one of the first ball games that we played together, um, with his younger brother, Matt. it was really good. And we've still got a copy, uh, in the, in our lounge here now.

Sarah 44:20

I have a pretty funny story about the trail though. I was, um, I was pregnant we were trying to induce just using, um, pressure points, my nephew was here. My nephew was nine, and we we were playing betrayal while we were trying to induce my labor. And I ended up going into labor. I'm like, okay, let's go to the hospital. We couldn't finish the game and he was winning.

Alex 44:46

Oh, no.

Sarah 44:47

And so he is still upset about It

Alex 44:49

Oh,

Sarah 44:51

It's quite funny.

Alex 44:52

It is a good way to pass the time and then Alien, uh, was a gift actually from a friend to us, and I think it gets harder the more people play.

Katie 45:01

Yeah,

Alex 45:01

I feel like it's, so only won it like two or three times. We've played it quite

Sarah 45:07

Yeah.

Alex 45:07

two or three times. but it's, it's just the right amount of challenging I think I As I mentioned, possibly or inferred. Um, I wasn't really a board gamer so much until I got together with Tom been slowly introducing me into board gaming. and getting me more gaming. He's very avid tabletop gamer. The weekend just gone actually. We had his younger brother and his partner, um, down to visit and they brought a game. called Slay the Spire, and I'm now addicted to that game. Uh, so I've, I realized it exists on Steam and uh, I bought it at the bargain price of five pounds'cause it's on sale

Sarah 45:48

Nice.

Alex 45:49

it eight hours since this weekend. Um,

Katie 45:53

there. Yeah.

Alex 45:54

Just, it's

Sarah 45:54

I've heard of Slay The Spire. I have not had the opportunity to play it yet.

Alex 45:58

It's, again, it's, it's of cooperative you're all working make your way through the different acts or the stages. and each act has a number of different monster mystery encounters and then like campsites where you can like get your health back up and everything. But it's so good and it's amazing. It says on the books it's last 60 to 90 minutes. we probably spent a combined total of maybe eight hours playing and we haven't even got through the to the third act. It's incredibly

Sarah 46:28

Wow.

Katie 46:28

goodness.

Alex 46:29

incredibly long. But to be fair, um, think I was learning it and I think Shona had only played it one one time before, so we were relatively new. It's definitely one for a long weekend. That one. Um, I dunno, Jem if you've got a, a favorite board game to share at all, i, know you're an avid board gamer back, so.

Jem 46:49

I've just been like making notes of all the games that everyone's suggesting because I, I also really enjoy co-op games'cause I, I'm too much of a people pleaser to be, to very much enjoy competitive games. But, I am obsessively playing Res Arcana at the moment with some friends. We play over Board Game Arena, I've always got two games going at any one time. But I think the game that's probably stand out for me recently has been Pandemic Legacy, um, which we've been playing with my mom and I've I've talked about this on the pod before, we, played season one and, um, then we. that so much that we went on to season two and we've just finally finished that just before Christmas. And both both have taken us at least a, a real time year, maybe more. but they've been so much fun and there's nothing that feels wrong yet, so good. Just tearing up cards in a board game or sticking stuff onto it or throwing stuff away. It's just like, I really do this? So, I've been, really enjoyed Pandemic Legacy actually, I.

Katie 48:12

Yeah. We, we played season one of

Sarah 48:15

Yeah,

Katie 48:15

Legacy, uh, pre pandemic, our map was crazy scary because it actually looked like the spread of Covid we're like, we did this.

Sarah 48:26

We

Katie 48:27

up the first card. We're like, we can't do this anymore. And we just saved

Sarah 48:30

really, really,

Katie 48:31

I

Sarah 48:31

Katie? Do it anymore.

Katie 48:33

it. It was, was like, no, I can't do it.

Sarah 48:36

Yeah.

Katie 48:36

but I have a, I have a question for you, Jem, about Pandemic Legacy. What Did you name your diseases?

Jem 48:43

Gosh, that's like two years ago.

Sarah 48:46

I still remember.

Katie 48:47

I still remember too. That's why I'm asking.

Jem 48:49

I can't remember. I'll have to look it out. Because we did, we did it after the pandemic, so it was all felt very close to home. I will look it up and let you know. I'll get that, get that to you.

Katie 49:01

i'm like, like on the edge. should we share what we named our diseases

Alex 49:07

What did you name them?

Katie 49:08

I know that there was Grandma Snuggles.

Sarah 49:11

Yeah.

Katie 49:11

one

Alex 49:12

wow.

Katie 49:13

It was just fun to say we need to ra eradicate grandma snuggles. Um, the one that's most traumatizing for me was cabin fever.

Alex 49:21

yes.

Katie 49:22

And then the last one,

Alex 49:25

Mm-hmm.

Katie 49:25

what was the last one, Sarah?

Sarah 49:27

your face.

Katie 49:28

your face.'cause we wanted to be like, oh, we need to eradicate your face. Yeah, yeah, yeah,

Jem 49:33

Oh yes.

Katie 49:35

We had to make ourselves laugh,

Alex 49:37

Hmm, Maybe we should look into those,

Sarah 49:40

we've got the ticket to ride one in our retail shop,

Katie 49:43

But, they, they will take a year to play.

Alex 49:47

Yeah. Yeah.

Katie 49:48

We did it like once a month or something.

Alex 49:49

committed gamers amongst us, for sure.

Jem 49:52

And you can't leave too long between them because otherwise you forget all the rules and then you spend

Sarah 49:57

Yeah,

Alex 49:57

Yeah.

Jem 49:57

two hours trying to remember what you were all doing.

Alex 50:01

Much

Sarah 50:02

true.

Alex 50:03

you come back onto on console or PC and you've forgotten all the controls. I've had a wonderful discussion. Um, thank you so much for coming on both of you. Um, it's been wonderful to hear about yourselves and about Wayfarers and the wonderful thing that is part of my local community. Jemma, I'd love if you ever come down my way.'cause of course we all live very far apart from each other, but if you are ever down this way, I sure. have to take you to Wayfarer's for sure.

Jem 50:31

For sure. Yes.

Sarah 50:32

Well, thank you very, very much for having us. This has really been fun. I

Katie 50:35

Yes, thank you. It's been very nice.

Alex 50:38

Wonderful stuff. if anyone's in the Surrey area, please do give Wayfarer's visit, check them out. They're wonderful. I can also vouch for their hot chocolate as well as their coffee. It's excellent. And it comes with a marshmallow. Um. can't beat it really. So that about draws to a conclusion. The episode for today. Thank you very much for listening and watching, And, please comment below with your favorite board games and or tabletop games. And, uh, let us know if you'd like to hear more about this topic in future. And we'll see you again every Thursday with something new. Thank you so much.