265 - Video Game Concerts: A Musical Adventure - Part 2

Join us as we recount an incredible evening filled with live performances of iconic game soundtracks and encounters with talented composers. From the captivating music of 'Return' and 'Disco Elysium' to Gareth Coker’s breathtaking work for 'Ori and the Will of the Wisps,' this video takes you through the sheer brilliance of video game music live in concert. Plus, hear personal anecdotes from meeting composers like Bobby from 'Baldur's Gate III,' Chris from 'Cuphead,' and Andrew Wincott from 'Baldur's Gate III' and 'The Archers.' Experience the thrill of a VIP event, the struggles of navigating a new venue, and the joy of connecting with like-minded fans. We also delve into the future of video game music in prestigious venues like the Royal Albert Hall and explore ideas for dream concerts featuring game music classics. Don't miss this deep dive into the world where gaming and orchestral music beautifully collide.

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Transcript

Alex 0:14

I remembered a few more song tracks that we'd had. We had bits from Return as well, which was actually really good. The music from that, they had a, I dunno if it was a part of the actual orchestra or if it was like an actor, but they had an organist or rather keyboardist playing organ for the return or bit, which was very cool on the screen. And then we had, what else? We had C Power, the actual C power band playing. Tracks from Disco Elysium, which was also very cool. Oh, but we were slightly obscure, so we couldn't really see them. So I didn't even know they were there until Austin mentioned it at the end, but it was still very cool. I'm not sure that necessarily translated to a full orchestra as well as some of the other game soundtracks. But one that definitely did was Ori and the Willow of the Wisp. I think that's the title. But that was an amazing soundtrack. That was Gareth Coker, who's a really good video game composer as well. But yeah, back to your point, home, Claire Obscura. As Austin was flying back, following this concert, flying back to la, he, once he'd reached home, revealed that he'd missed the Grammys for this concert that we'd seen him conducting and that he'd won the Grammy for his soundtrack to the sea. No, really, which is the latest giant. So he got all these notifications on his phone saying you've won. While he was up in the air flying back. And then he did a reflection on winning and actually spent most of the time talking about CLA obscure and how it should have won and how it wasn't nominated within that category, but it should have been. So he spent most of the time in his online thank you speech shouting out another composer, which I think having now met him is basically his personality all over. He'll do anything to push others up as well as obviously. Being humble about his own work but obviously aware of his own work and how good it is, but not in a, in an arrogant way at all. He's a really lovely person. Speaking of meeting him, I'll come onto that. So we had a VIP event after the fact and there was a mad dash to the floor above. We ended up coming in a little bit late because we took the wrong lift and we were on the wrong side of the building. And then we had to keep asking around, go back down, go across the building, find the right lift, just about fit into that lift'cause it was smaller. Come out, find the function room and then hang around outside wondering if there was a queue or if these people were not allowed in.'Cause we had tickets. So after. About 15 minutes of fluffing around. We managed to get into the room and it was one of those smoy type events where people were handed drinks and left to their own devices, much the pre-event drinks and post-event drinks at our podcast awards that we went to, which when you're in a wheelchair and you're an introvert is a little bit of a nightmare to navigate. But we weaved our way around and then gently nudged people to get them to include us into circles and stuff. And I wanna see if I can share my screen. I hope so. Let's have a look. Yes. Now can you see that much? I dunno if you can see. Hopefully. But these are the signatures that I picked up on during the VIP event, and this was the first one. And it's from Bobby who is the composer to Boulder's Gate three. And I took a little notebook with me. As you can see, we hadn't yet become aware that's a good idea that there were posters at the back that we could pick up and pens to pick up as well. We hadn't reached that far into the room. So I was like, could you saw him with it please? Bobby is an incredibly effusive person. He's incredibly passionate and I think that's just how he is. He went on seeing me, took my hand and shook it for probably about 10 or 20 seconds, longer than you would expect. And then was very keen to tell me that the group around us and me and Tom were his people and that he writes music for us and that our passion is what keeps him going. Which is lovely of him to say. But he's, it's clear how much he cares about the music that he writes.'cause of course he did the music for divinity Original Sin, which we are playing together right now, which is great. And so I said to him, would you mind signing my book? I tried to tell him my name. It was naturally far too loud in an environment like that to be heard. So I wrote it down on the top there and he said to Alex, with my best wishes, Bobby, keep the passion alive. Which is what he said multiple times when we were all in the circle. That's Bobby. And then a little later on we came across Chris, who is. The composer for Cuphead. And Tom was especially excited to meet Chris because Cup Head's one of his favorite games and he wanted to know what his influences were on the score.'cause it's basically really big jazz record. And he said that his main, one of his main influences was the music of, and it's fallen out my head. It'll come back, I'll have to Google it. But it's a famous jazz musician from like the forties, thirties, and forties whose style was incredibly recognizable. So whenever you'd hear it, you'd know it was this person. And I'm sorry the name has completely dropped off my head, Matt, but it will come back to me. I'm sure there was some tracks featured on La Noir soundtrack and probably on Fallout as well. It's that sort of era that kind of inspired Chris, but it was really nice to me. I'm worried to guess because I worried I might end up being racist. You can try it.

Matt 6:27

Sammy Davis Jr.

Alex 6:29

No, I don't think so. Oh, no, it's gone. I'm sorry. I'll have to check. I'll have to do an edit later and put it into the notes. So excuse my tired brain. But yeah, it was really nice to hear like the thought process behind the score and what he wanted to pull across from the music as well, which is really cool. Basically, he said yeah, that he just was influenced by this particular musician because of the way that their scores were so identifiable to be, or their songs were most identifiable to them and nobody wrote like them. So I think he wanted to be as unique as he possibly could. Which was really cool. And then a little later we went right to the corner of the room and found Andrew WinCo who took us even further into the back of the room behind what was some screens where people were having photos so we could talk to him and tear him properly and he could hear us properly. At which point I told him I was a massive Arches fan. So most of the conversation was all about the arches and his character Adam, and the ensuing storylines that will come probably in the next few years alter do with who's going to inherit the form and the issues around him not being a legitimate child of the main farmer who is at the moment. So there's all that to come. I'll look forward to that. But naturally, as you can see from his signature there, he also voiced Raphael Art in Boulder's Gate three. It sounds very similar to his character in the Arch. So I said, it actually took me a little while to realize, which is very silly of me. And he said yes they do sound quite similar. And then no, he was and what surprised us as well,'cause we obviously had a chat about Bald Gate three. He told us about meeting a fan at another sort of convention or something where they talked about the fight with Rafael and how they killed him basically in one go by hoarding a load of explosive barrels all the way from the start and just setting them all up around him and then exploding him in one day, which sounds hilarious and it's amazing. You wouldn't think he would remember that kind of detail. He said they were in honor mode as well see, he understood what honor mode was and everything, so that was quite pleasant surprise. Yeah, and he has been a voice actor for a number of other games, but they're not like credited parts. They're just mainly additional voices. But he's been quite prolific in a lot of other video games, which is really interesting to learn about as well. So yes, he signed it three times once his himself and Drew and cop once as Raphael with a cat for the cat's claws, just like in the song that he sings about the claws coming down. So I think he quite enjoyed drawing a cat there and once as Adam as well. So that was really lovely. And then right at the end of the evening it was getting on towards midnight. Now. And we didn't even realize,'cause it's one of those, we also had a couple of different can of paste. They were okay. I think one of mine was Ox Cheek, which I then realized after the fact. And I was like, dunno how I feel about that now. It was okay. Ox cheek. It was very meaty. Yes.

Matt 9:45

Hopefully it was the faith, the head cheek.

Alex 9:48

It was in a I hope so. We really do. But no, it was in a ball, the time. But yes, it was all right. It was just very lty. But yeah, can of pasty, can of paste. But last not, but not least, we all, I think Austin was pretty much swamped for the entire evening. And it was like the security guards were telling us all to leave. And this nice lady who was also waiting for Austin was like, have you been waiting? I've been waiting all night as well. And then she helped. To get to Austin and said, this lady's been waiting for you all night. And then I immediately got really embarrassed and started gushing all over, oh, just gushing and stuff about how great Austin was and how much I loved his music. And then I talked about how much I talk about him on the podcast and he was like, oh, that's so you. And then I said about his various videos on his YouTube channel, like the series that he did for his 40th birthday where he talked about his favorite pieces of music, one for every day of the year, which is really cool. Wow. I definitely recommend checking them out. But yeah, there was not enough time to express how much Austin's music means to be and I basically was probably just really read and embarrassed and or fling on. But in the end got him to sign the back of my poster and he said, thank you for your calling words and support. And then his signature and a little journey guy. He said, I couldn't resist a little journey guy. So that's a lovely memento. He asked me what my favorite part of the evening was and I said I can't not say journey. And then I couldn't think of anything else to say other than that. So it was a little bit awkward, but he did say it was very kind and that it really meant a lot and that it was his privilege to be there, which I think a lot of the composers echoed, which was really lovely. They're all just really lovely. I definitely would like to go to something similar again because you could see how passionate they all were about music in general and about the art of crafting it for video games, which is completely different to scoring for film and TV as we've discussed many times on the pod. And I think that's fascinating. But, sure. I'll stop sharing for now. It was Duke. Duke Ellington's. Yes. Yes. Duke Ellington. There you go. You got it. Well done. Yes. That was perfect. So that was his main influence.

Matt 12:15

Austin, I, this is another time I've been pleasantly surprised recently of the first big thing was the Wayfair's Rest podcast. That, and they, we need to get them to start a podcast of their own, of some sort. Oh my gosh, that would be amazing. There's so much cool stuff there. Then say how they've only been open for seven months. Yeah. And the biggest problem they've had was that they've gone up A-A-V-A-T tax bracket. Yeah. And how they ev everything that they are. Is antithetical to the capital the system of capitalism that we are under and that we are bombarded by in 99% of products and services and places and them starting online and I'm gonna join their Discord group'cause it's still going. Okay. Yeah. And starting from that and then that being successful enough to get a, an actual place, an actual property, and then it being incredibly successful for seven months just makes you go, oh people can start with something that they love and then share that with other people and have the love of the thing. Be the foundation of it. There. Love the thing. And gaming, gaming music is, it's still a niche. And, but it, I think it's one of those niches where the artists making something still can't believe that they're doing it. And that anyone cares. Because the one of the soul destroying things about 99% of people making art is that no one cares. No one looks at it. No one reads it. No one watches it. And until you find your thing or make a certain thing. You can't go into any artistic endeavor. Thinking, hoping, ah this will be the one, this'll be the, this'll be my breakthrough thing. You've got to do it for,'cause you love doing it. Then you do it even if no one, even if you never got any recognition for it. And to be someone like Austin Wintry, or especially the Claire obscure composer, which we can talk a bit more about in the, in in a bit to go I can't believe, I can't believe anyone listens to my stuff, let alone people liking it and let alone people loving it. And to be able to be able to not have it not be a massive, egotistical thing. Because they could be, they could all go, oh yes, of course. I knew you'd enjoy it, so it doesn't surprise me that you enjoy it. They're going, oh, thank you. It's really cool. I can't believe that people, they're still like giddy children going, I can't believe

Alex 15:42

completely.

Matt 15:43

I can't believe it.

Alex 15:45

No, it's lovely. Interestingly, I wanted to touch back on your, the fact that your concept was in the Royal Albert Hall. I think that says something in itself about the rise of video game music as a source of entertainment in itself, or a concert worthy set of music in itself. And, the Royal Level Hall is absolutely steeped in history when it comes to classical music, the number of proms, obviously various other concerts of that ilk. That's what it's known for. That's what it's all about, is classical music. There's probably a sort of attitude from some classical music lovers that gaming music doesn't deserve to be in, in a place like this. But do you think that seeing Eldon ring music in the Royal Lab Hall was a really positive thing for video game music in general? And do you think that there'll only be more of these types of events to come?

Matt 16:44

Yeah. The future is bright

Alex 16:46

for

Matt 16:46

video game music live events, because it's really, it's, it is a very interesting phenomena. Because classical music and classical music venues are, you'd think they'd be gate kept assiduously by. The people in their eighties and nineties going, oh, we can't possibly have gaming music. Oh, goodness me, we can't possibly have that. And they would stand in the way of these kinds of things happening. But somehow people and the Albert Hall is probably the most esteemed concert venue in the country and probably up there in like the top 10 in Europe. This is the mecca of the classical music scene in the UK at the very least. And to get the decisions that have to be made in the upper rungs of that to get an Eldon ring concert there. I can't imagine what led to that. But the only thing that matters is they got it done. They did it, and it was a success. And that's another pleasant surprise is you'd think these old boys, so old boys networks never are always gonna be intract intractable.'cause it just made me think of Emily Marmo in the French Open.

Alex 18:25

Yeah.

Matt 18:25

And how you go, oh she's a woman. She's new blood. She's in her forties. She's not one of the old boys. So you'd think she'd do some revolutionary things would happen under her watch, but no, she just does what the old boys would do. Whereas with this, I assume they're old, the oldest of the oldest boys. Yeah.

Alex 18:46

I would gather, say yeah.

Matt 18:48

And

Alex 18:49

yeah,

Matt 18:49

but somehow there's. There's an ecosystem there that allows a revolutionary thing to come.

Alex 18:58

I know it's Alden Ring's not the first gaming concert that's been at the Royal Albert Hall, either. There've been plenty of foil fantasy concerts at the Royal Hall as well. I can't name any others, but I'm sure there have been others besides obviously there have been gaming proms as well as part of the proms series. And I think it's definitely doing more to feature non-traditional classical music, let's say. So there are more film scores and things at the problems as well. But yeah, I think it's been changing for a little while, but there's probably, certainly still some that are resistant to it. Definitely. But yeah. How did you find the audience was. Did it look relatively alternative compared to what you would assume? Would you be your normal audience at the Royal Hubbert Hall?

Matt 19:52

I think definitely It trended towards the younger,

Alex 19:55

yes. Yeah.

Matt 19:56

But it wasn't like I wasn't like shocked. I wasn't, it wasn't a go. Oh wow. Everyone looks like this. Yeah. Or there are no one there that looked like that. It was a real, yeah, just a real mix, a real organic mix.

Alex 20:10

I'd say

Matt 20:11

it was

Alex 20:11

quite similar for me as well. Yeah.

Matt 20:14

I think that's another wonderful thing is the audience for gaming in general and gaming music is diversifying Yes. That, that it's not just for. Boys and men the age of eight to 35. You can have, like anyone from any walk of life could go and go to an el and ring concert.

Alex 20:47

Yeah.

Matt 20:48

And it's not, it can always feel like there's the people who, there are people who game, people who don't game, and people who they've got one foot in gaming, maybe their kids do it or their friends do it or some of the sort of adjacent to it. And then the people who have no gaming, gaming relationships in their lives to have the audience, the potential audience spreading even to those people who have never gamed and don't game. To be able to have gaming music be its own thing to such an extent where you don't need to have played a game to love the music from it. And I really think that Claire Obscure has, it's raised the bar for gaming music and shows what, as well as what Claire obscure has studied in lots of ways, but especially the music to like really transcend the genre of gaming. It's it just, I, I remember from the very start and from most of the game, I remember saying to Gem that the music needs to calm down a bit.

Alex 22:12

Yeah.

Matt 22:13

Because. Most game music. It's there as a background thing. So it's not, it's never the thing, it's the background thing, supporting the thing, but in clear, obscure the music. It behaves as if it's of the thing at all times and just somehow it just works with it all. And it's just, it feels like someone who's just, it's that kind of art, which we're finding out a lot this episode that it's hard to put into words. It's hard to explain what it is and why it has the impact it has, but. It's just, it's a different breed altogether. This the kind of stuff that you could show to anyone, and it's impossible for'em to go, this isn't remarkable music. This can't compare to these other things. And the, it's fabulous that the composer for CLA obscure was a SoundCloud musician.

Alex 23:30

Yeah.

Matt 23:31

And they found him doing that. Amazing. And then he's able to create this completely bar raising unique never heard anything like this before thing. And it's just art. There's just something about the art of music that is, it's just different to that. I, listen, I've been. I've always loved music and it really feels like it's it connects with the soul in a different way to say games or books or TV or anything. It's a real,

Alex 24:15

it's like a, almost a conduit sometimes. Absolutely. For when have emotions that you don't know what to do with. You're like, I need to listen to some music and feel feelings. And it just helps you to make sense of stuff or to like, not even make sense of it, just to be if that makes sense. But yeah it's like you can use music to boost yourself no matter how you're feeling. Like even if it's too. Feel more angry. You wanna listen to angry music, you can be more angry. It's like a pressure release almost. And witching on now, but I know,

Matt 24:50

yeah, I do. Yeah. The, one of the most like impactful periods of heavy metal music was the new metal period in the early two thousands. And that was like your Lincoln Parks, and they just unlocked an entire generation of people because their the, there was the music, but then there was the lyrics and how they were saying things that people felt, but they couldn't put into words themselves and they were putting those thoughts and feelings. Into expressing them in the most impactful way so that you can hear that and you go, oh they think and feel exactly how I feel now. And you can't choose, you can't choose what impacts you in that way and music it.'cause it's always very short songs normally. And you can have a song that can just within three minutes can just

Alex 26:04

Yeah.

Matt 26:04

Hit you right in your soul and just makes you go. For me personally, it was a going, oh I actually exist. There is actually a me at the center. I am at the center of me. And this, yeah, this connection that's like reaches in and goes, oh yeah, there you are. You're okay.

Alex 26:25

Yeah. And

Matt 26:28

oh yeah, just music man.

Alex 26:30

So great. Isn't it? Music, but yeah, I wanted to just touch on something else as we wrap up that's linked to how great music is anyway. But one of the things that I love the most about actually going to a concept is the idea that it is like a physical space for people who love games to come and be in a physical space together. And thinking about obviously we've been through the pandemic and a lot of gaming is online, not all of it. But when you're video gaming, you're often separate from people. And I think sometimes it can, not necessarily all the time, but sometimes it can be isolating. But if you have a real passion for gaming and music, et cetera, you can come to a physical venue. You can meet that gaming community that also shares that passion with you and be in a room and just let it all hoo. And it's brilliant and I loved it. And I also think it is a boost for the arts as well.'cause it's like a meshing of two different worlds. It's like gaming and the arts colliding and it's giving that exposure to people who might not necessarily have ever been to somewhere like the Royal Albert Hall before.

Matt 27:46

Yeah.

Alex 27:46

And then it might cultivate a further passion into other types of music, like classical music, for example. So I think it's, that's such super,

Matt 27:55

that's such a good point. I was

Alex 27:56

thinking

Matt 27:56

of, I was thinking of it from the perspective of bringing people who don't game into gaming. I think you can

Alex 28:02

do that as well. Yeah.

Matt 28:03

But yeah, you're completely right about,

Alex 28:05

yeah.

Matt 28:06

Taking gamers who don't. Gamers who don't go to concerts at the Albert Hall. If they go, they don't listen to classical music. That's not a, that's not what the average gamer is likely to. That that like Venn diagram of demographics isn't like very common. But yeah. People who, I think someone who's played, who only plays Dark Souls games. Yeah. And maybe they don't, maybe that's the only games they like to play these dark dungeon crawlery things. They might not necessarily think about the music very much, but then they go, oh, Eldon Ring concert. Yeah. Oh, music was pretty cool. Albert Hall. Okay. That sounds cool. Oh, go. I'll get a cheap seat since I've not yeah. I've not been there before. And right up high. And then you step into the Albert Hall. The Albert Hall. I'll go

Alex 28:58

one day. Yeah,

Matt 28:59

there you go. Oh, you open the door first you see it, and then you go, wow, that's massive. And then you walk in the front door. And it's got these great big staircases and just big, and goes up and then you go, Ooh, where's my seat? I've got to go up. How many flights of stairs? And then you go and walking up up. And then another awesome thing about concert venues is when you're walking around, like in the, like the corridors outside. And you walk past, people going through their doors, and inside just a, you get a glimpse of the venue, and you see all this glowing brightness and the wood and the carpets. And then you get up to the top floor, and then you show your ticket to the man. He goes, oh yeah. Through this way. And then you're in the fucking, it's the Colosseum. Yeah. It's just. This unbelievable. Just the experience of walking through the door and then all you've done, all you've never cared about classical music. You've never been to concert goer. You only go to heavy metal bands in small venues, is what I normally do. And then all of a sudden you're listening to an orchestra in the Albert Hall. Yeah. When you, you would never have done that before. And people, and I would go to the Albert Hall to see at most things. Yeah. To be honest.

Alex 30:24

Yeah.

Matt 30:25

So yeah. That's such a good point. Such a good point. Even more awesomeness.

Alex 30:29

Wonderful. Unless you have anything extra to add before I wrap up, do you?

Matt 30:35

Yeah. Can we do Yes. Feel free. Can we do a quick,'cause I, the first thing I thought when you said we will do do it about. Live events.

Alex 30:42

Yeah.

Matt 30:42

I went, oh, can we talk about what the perfect, how we course would set up her?

Alex 30:48

Yes. Yes.

Matt 30:49

So if we narrow it down to music specifically.

Alex 30:53

My God. Okay. I think the one, like I said, the one thing that was missing from the concert I attended was God of war. Just have lots of God of war.'cause that would be incredible in concert, I think. Oh my gosh. There's just so much to pick. Yeah. I'd You'd have to be there for months probably to be able to say,

Matt 31:13

yeah. Yeah. That's a good, that's a good point. I, it's

Alex 31:16

so hard.

Matt 31:18

I would, so for right now, I want a clear, obscure concert in the Albert Hall. That's like the raw, like the rawest experience of. That I would want the Albert Hall is the perfect place for any kind of music really. And if there was, if they said we're doing a clear, obscure concert like Eldon Ring, I'd go to that in a heartbeat. Same with God of War.

Alex 31:47

Yeah.

Matt 31:47

I think those are probably the only, I'd probably

Alex 31:51

also add in Ghost of Sushi and Ghost of Moon today.

Matt 31:54

Yeah.

Alex 31:55

Because that's really good music.

Matt 31:57

Yeah. We, so there are those ones that if they, if it was just a night at the Albert Hall with one game, I would do that a hundred percent. If it was a bespoke thing,

Alex 32:12

maybe it could be like a festival or some festival or something with several concerts across the Yeah, it's a Friday, Saturday. Oh, games, prom entirely for games. Oh my God. Yes. They've cracked it. Okay.

Matt 32:28

Like the download festival

Alex 32:29

for Yes.

Matt 32:31

You got Friday, Saturday, Sunday.

Alex 32:33

Yeah.

Matt 32:34

Clare obscure God of War. Ghost of Sheba. And Ghost of Yte.

Alex 32:40

Yeah.

Matt 32:40

Those are the big two hour ones in the evening. And then throughout the day, multiple stages with smaller mini orchestras doing each of the things. And then,'cause then you could have half an hour, you could have half an hour for,

Alex 33:01

you could have a classics stage where you do like games from like the eighties and fifties. Yeah. Yeah. That'd be very cool. You could have you could do it by genre, there's lot like a ComicCon slice,

Matt 33:16

Comicon Plus Music Festival.

Alex 33:19

Yeah.

Matt 33:20

So you could have, Austin wintry would be there to do, he could cut duck one. He might do a journey one on Friday, then a, an absolute one on another day. Or he might do a medley of all of them. And then he could be there to sign autographs and do, he could do Oh fuck.

Alex 33:39

Wouldn't be so good.

Matt 33:41

Oh

Alex 33:42

yes. We should make plans now. Yeah. That's what we do over there. Yes.

Matt 33:48

There's hire us to, to plan. Plan our things. Ah,

Alex 33:54

so exciting. That's so

Matt 33:54

cool.

Alex 33:55

Yes. We should go to one together. That'll be really fun. Should go to a concert in future. Yeah.

Matt 34:02

Hoping the right one will appear.

Alex 34:05

Yes. I'm now even more tempted to just book that one that you sent in the chat about. Was it, or did I send it? Austin and Troy Baker yeah, again, to do a concert in the summer, this summer coming, I'm not sure whereabouts in London, I think maybe even Croydon, which is weird. But they're basically doing a, they dunno what they're going to do, but they're going to get the audience to help them write video game music, live in culture. Wow. So that should be quite interesting. And now that I've seen Austin, I'm like, maybe I do have enough money to book that one and go, but I'll think about it. Definitely some. Yeah, and the good thing is to know how those

Matt 34:47

two met.

Alex 34:48

I know they

Matt 34:49

did the. The Play, watch, listen.

Alex 34:52

Podcast. Yeah. And then they've done a series on Austin's own YouTube called, you've Gotta Hear This, which I definitely recommend. It's basically Austin showing Troy some of his favorite pieces of music, and then watching Troy's reaction to listen to them. And then they just talk about it for two hours is so good. It's so nerdy. So nerdy. They're all so nerdy. But yeah, there's been, the good thing about, about video game concerts is I'm sure there'll be more on the horizon. So one day you and I, Matt, we can head off together. It'll be really fun. Definitely. But thank you for joining me for this episode, and you can catch us every Thursday if you want to listen to our lovely podcast and more. So thank you for listening and watching, and we'll see you again soon.

Matt 35:40

Bye-bye.

Alex 35:40

Bye-Bye

35:41

bye.