273 - GTS News: New study on Misogynistic Abuse in gaming

In this episode of Gaming the System, Gem, Alex, and Matt discuss a recent Sex Roles study showing that women gamers who identify as feminists or take action for gender equality are blamed more for the sexism they experience online, especially by people with stronger sexist attitudes. They outline two studies using a League of Legends scenario involving a gamer named Lucia, where participants assigned more blame when Lucia was described as a feminist or as engaging in more extreme collective action. The hosts connect these findings to broader patterns of victim-blaming, institutional sexism, and manosphere-driven misogyny, and they explore how “feminist killjoy” fears can discourage speaking up. They share personal experiences of gendered hostility in gaming spaces, discuss “passing” and choosing battles, and reflect on how the podcast provides support and confidence while sometimes increasing visibility as a target.

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Jem 0:15

Hello and welcome back to another episode of Gaming the System, the podcast where three intersectional feminists examine gaming and games through a feminist lens. I'm your host for today. I'm Gem, and I'm here with my friends Alex and Matt. So before we get started, if you want to support us, you can subscribe to our patron at patron.com/gaming the system for some exclusive content. Or you can send us US a one-off

Alex 0:46

donation via PayPal to our email address. We are gaming the system@gmail.com.

Jem 0:54

Hello and welcome to another episode of Gaming the System. And today I wanted to talk to Matt and Alex about the, a recent study that found that feminist women gamers are blamed more for the sexism that they experience in games. So. Just to give you a bit of a background on this, in a recent study published in the journal Sex Roles, they highlighted a re a troubling reality for women in the world of online gaming. The research showed that female gamers who identified as feminists or engaged in actions that. Promoted gender equality are often blamed more for experiencing sexist incidents whilst they're playing online. So this was more pronounced among participants that held stronger sexist attitudes to women gamers. So, online, games are historically dominated by male players, but we now know that 50% of gamers are female. So, you know, this is going to be affecting a lot of women in these spaces. And we've talked in the past about how female gamers might hide that they're female because of some of the hassle that they get online. And this is a depressing sort of subset of that, meaning that people are not only having to hide their gender, but they're also having to hide, you know, the fact that they might be fighting for equality and you know, promoting, uh, a more fair treatment of people. So the, the way that they found this. They did this research was they looked at, um, they did two studies and they got participants who were regular video gamers. And they had men and women and ranging from 18 to 52. So big, broad, broad group. And they asked 291 participants. Or they presented 291 participants with a hypothetical scenario in which a female gamer named Lucia was ridiculed by male teammates after making a mistake while playing League of Legends. Um, and then they asked them, they, they randomly assigned them to two groups. In one group, they were told that Lucia was a feminist and a member of a feminist association, and she advocates for gender equality and video games. In the other group, she was described as a regular gamer. No mention of feminist affiliations. And what they found was that when participants were asked to rate the extent to which they blamed Lucia for the sexist comments she received, they they were more inclined to blame Legia if they had been told that she was a feminist. In the second study, they looked at 400 participants and they were presented with a scenario where Lucia either engaged in, um, normative collective actions. So for example, signing petitions, organizing peaceful protest or. Non-normative. So things like hacking a website, disrupting an event and in, in support of equality in gaming. And they then rated their level of blame towards Lucia based on reading about her sexist interactions with teammates again. And in both cases they found that when. She was described as a feminist, or she should been engaging in more extreme interactions or efforts to sort of resolve that situation. She was, um, more of the blame was put on her. So I was wondering, you know, what is your sort of initial thoughts? What are your initial thoughts? When you hear about this study and these results,

Alex 5:36

I'm not surprised, sadly. I just feel like it's a, it's a trend that you see across lots of different areas of women's lives generally. Um, one that spring to mind off the top of my head is when, women get blamed for rape because they wore a pro, a provocative outfit, for example. It's that same sort of line of thinking, not saying it's that ex as extreme as that, but it's, it's, it's the same sort of follow through, if that makes sense. So I'm not surprised. It's very disheartening indeed to hear about, uh, it doesn't really make sense in my head. I just don't really understand why anyone would. Would see that as a reason to blame somebody for, for or, or, you know, for failing because they happen to be trying to promote equality doesn't, doesn't make sense in my head, but, um, yeah, it's not surprising for me. I'm sure I'll have more to say once, once Matt uh, also shares his thoughts as well.

Matt 6:44

Yeah. So. Do you both know who Sydney Poie is?

Alex 6:49

Yes.

Jem 6:49

Mm-hmm.

Matt 6:50

Yeah, so he's been coming up on my. Algorithm recently seeing these fabulous scenes from his movies in the sixties, that race, he centered race in his movies quite a lot. And whenever he's having, that's the kind of like representation of race. Needs to be because that's where it is. It's at its rawest and the, the raw reality of, of these situations, 'cause when it is, it is done cheaply, it does a disservice to everyone. 'cause it's only there to placate the white people who get angry when they see. The way that some white people behaved in the past, and it not just being about, oh, they said this one thing once, or maybe this, it's the, the institutional nature of it. It isn't just, oh, you can't say anything these days. It was the Civil War that said, right, you can't own black people anymore. But then they went, oh, I'll get around to why this, why this applies to this in a minute, but the, the reality of the 500 years of the first like time, like say slavery. Occurred in America right up until now. How it isn't oh, it, it went up until the Civil War and then it's been fine since then. I dunno what anyone is making a, a problem about when it is in fact an institutional system that we are still in inside that system. And whenever someone. Talks about the true system, the dark system, the, the, the true horror of it. There isn't just, oh, a few bad apples or a few nasty words. It's 500 years of an ins, institutional, legal, and logistical elements that were done on purpose and. Then I've been thinking about the Nazis recently and ICE and how all these people who go who, when they're like, when history is on the right side eventually, and. People are looking back and seeing how things actually were, these people always go, oh, it wasn't me. I wasn't the one doing that. I was always on the, on the, on the good side. I was just going along with things and the reason this applies in this area is people doing the horrifying, worst thing that they, they feel like doing the way that these. Presumably men react in these situations and the more outspoken and politically active a woman might be, the more aggression they are received with, and that what needs to change is these men need to not feel comfortable saying those things if they think and feel those things. They should be the ones that are worried about saying that out loud because of how they're going to be treated. And that is what happens when institutions are on the side of the people who want more rights and more equality. So like with segregation in America, it was legal. That was the law of the land up until the sixties. And then. The, with all the civil rights protests, eventually segregation was made illegal. The institution changed and said, right, it doesn't matter what you think or feel, you can't separate black and white pillar people anymore. And at that time, there were a, a. Massive. Massive, massive, massive portion of white people in the country that hated that and were terrified of that, but, and it took a long time for it to settle in for it to change, and now no one thinks about it twice for the most part. But that institutional change needs to come in on the side of the people of the, of say, in this case, of women, the institution, which is the gaming industry. The game developers, the game publishers need to, and the government need to come in and go, yeah, this, this. You need to be able to come on and be yourself and not be attacked for things about you. And this is just another symbol of going, right. This is the system as it is now. This is where we are in the system. We're not in a post racism, we're not in a post misogyny world, which is what they have been led to believe that we are very, very much still in these systems. And it's, it is, it's important that that is clarified to us. Consistently to go, oh, not everything is better. A lot of things are exactly the same as they have been and some things are getting worse. And if, if we can't, we don't stand a chance at, at fixing things if we don't understand. The current situation?

Jem 12:54

No, and I mean the first step to fixing something is admitting that there's a problem. And if you are in denial about the fact that there is actually an issue, then you're not going to put the effort into to solve that situation. And so I think that's especially a big problem,

Matt 13:10

especially if you are at the moment in the current system, you have the most power and authority.

Jem 13:16

Absolutely.

Matt 13:17

Then you have to. You have to choose. You have to educate yourself on that and then choose to raise people up. Mm-hmm. Or to just rec, not use your privilege to punch down.

13:30

Mm-hmm.

Matt 13:30

Yeah,

Jem 13:31

I mean, the study, the study found that it was the people who already held sexist attitudes who were more inclined to, to behave like this and to have these, these opinions. I think the problem that we have is that sexist sexism is rife within the gaming industry because we, as we've talked about so many times before. So many computer games are just reinforcing stereo sexist stereotypes and gender sort of norms and problematic behavior and all of these things. And they're not really being checked. So they're, they're sort of reinforcing the sexist behavior. And then what we're seeing is that, that sex, those sexist attitudes, and then creating a scenario where people are saying, well, it's. Her fault that she's being harassed, you know, when her political views have nothing whatsoever to do, whether she's being harassed or not, that's, they're two completely separate issues. And I think, you know, I dunno if either view of watched her, the manosphere with Louis Thru, but it is well worth watching actually. It is not as infuriating as it. Would appear to, to be, um, because it, it just that, you know, he, he, he hangs them he hands them the rope for them to hang themselves and which they, they quite successfully do. But what it does say is that, you know, there is this whole industry that's out there deliberately trying to peddle those sexist attitudes. And there's, and there's misogyny. And this is a direct negative result of those attitudes. You know, this is one example. It's a relatively small example, but you know, it's a fundamental example as you just explained, Matt. So. I am just wondering, like one of the other sort of adjacent studies done done around this topic was looking at this idea of being a sort of feminist killjoy. And they were, they, they, it was just released this year, but they found that women often don't call out this kind of behavior when they see this sort of sexist or anti. F anti female behavior, misogynistic behavior. They don't call it out because they don't wanna be accused of being a feminist killjoy. And I remember years ago, a friend of mine, a very good friend of mine, who has, uh, since seen the light, he, he, he said to me like, oh, you know, but do you want to be one of those women? When I was kind of extolling the virtues of feminism and I was like, hell yeah, I want to be one of those women. But even, even. Being one of those women, I do find it difficult to, you know, be the person at the party or at the meal out or at the family event to sort of say like, no, that isn't okay. Or, you know. That's sexist or that's misogynistic. It's, it's hard to step outside of your comfort zone and challenge somebody else's views in that way. And it, you know, and I've had years of practice of, you know, thinking about it and going through my arguments and you know, I have a lot of, a lot of, logical backup behind, behind my position that I've spent a long time thinking about. So, you know, but I feel that it's, it's an an anxiety inducing thing to step in, in the, in the real world and say those things. So expecting just everybody to do it is, is challenging. But I'm just wondering whether you've ever had that moment where you've, you've seen sort of. A misogynistic or sexist behavior and you've sort of been like, I should step in and say something, but you know what, I'm just gonna, I'm just gonna let it slide. I'm just gonna, because you, not because you are scared of what people might think or that you're scared of being attacked, but because you just don't wanna be a kill killjoy.

Alex 17:49

I've certainly experienced it a few times in various workplaces where I think the atmosphere. Particularly if you're working in an office, you don't wanna be like the person that ruins the vibe for the day or you know, whatever. Uh, it is incredibly difficult, as you say, gem. It is quite anxiety inducing. I experience similar things when I always try and advocate for people to call out when things are maybe ableist as well. Which is incredibly hard to do too, and I've done it myself when, when out and about in public, and oftentimes people react very negatively to being called out. I think perhaps because maybe they already known. Maybe they're a little bit ashamed of being called out or that someone has taken the time to actually say something or. Um, maybe they had no idea and they're just embarrassed that they didn't know better. So I think on a similar level, that might be something of what's going on, perhaps to that, that kind of reaction to, to being called out is just a little bit of shame and embarrassment that, you know, they weren't behaving, you know, in a more equitable and more aware way. Or perhaps that they were just. Maybe being a little bit mature as well. I think perhaps that has something to do with it. From, from a, from the point of view of, of sexist, misogynistic behavior always. I also feel it is a lot of the time, you know, quite immature in, its, in its leanings. Um, it's about wanting to fit in with the lads and uh, that definitely I mean you could say it's generational as well. 'cause I think. I dunno, we could talk ages about this, but I dunno if it carries on from generation to generation or if it is maybe becoming less common now. But I think like the Louisa Ru documentary shows that it is partic is still a massive problem amongst the male population these days. So who knows? I dunno where I'm going with this really, but, uh, yeah, it is difficult to call it out and I I always applaud when people do, but it is incredibly difficult. Um, but you've just, you just gotta kind of stick to your guns and say, well, yes, this is what I believe in and, and this is what I think, and. It is hard because we all want people to like us and to fit in. And when we go against that, that kind of isolates us in a, in a strange way as well.

Matt 20:27

Yeah. Um, Jim, when we did our episode with Tom recently, you asked a fabulous question about whether we as feminist men. Ever try and pass as, as depending on what environment we're in, we can pass as if we're not feminist men and that we're just one of the, one of the boys. And this is another area where I think it's, it's different because if it's like a, a, a social thing between. Men, then it's a, a much simpler scenario. It can be. But when it's an intergender situation, it's a lot more. Like a potentially charged environment because the, the, the patriarchal dynamics that are as old as time between men and women are, have not been completely neutralized yet, and. So you have no idea of the, the range of people that you're going to be interacting with, and it's an area where I think we have, you have to pick your battles. Because to it, like I, I think a lot about how I would justify my feminism if someone called me out on it and trying to come up with, like, reasons to convince other people. 'cause that's what it, that's what it could feel like to go right. How do I, how do I convince you that you are. Wrong to say this or to, and also to think, oh, maybe. 'cause every time I, I, I read a thing that, that like goes a, a different possibility or that a thing that I fuck out is wrong and stupid. The first thing I do is go, am I wrong and stupid? Am I wrong about this? What if I'm wrong about other things?

Jem 22:46

Yeah.

Matt 22:48

And, but then to, I think it needs to be enough that we are. We know that that's who we are. We know that it's part of who we are, and we can pass by not putting it out the front, but as long as we're able to go, right. This is, this is part of my core identity. It's part of my, my soul. Is it, it represents part of my soul. Because that's the, that's the conclusion that we've arrived at. And you don't need to label yourself or call out specific things in certain areas, like going, actually, I'm a feminist and I think that that is the wrong thing to say, which is, which is how you think and feel. But you can, you can buy the way that you interact with the world. You can, you can create a, a passive. More positive environment. So like if you go to, you could ask, you could ask someone like a man in your group, oh, um, what are your pronouns? And they go, oh, that's stupid. Go what are, what are they? I just go, isn't it obvious you going and you go 'cause you are the, if it can come from a place of you are trying to do a nice thing. For 'cause if you go, if you go to someone who's non-binary and the first thing you say is, oh, what are your, what are your pronouns? And they go, oh yeah, I'm, I'm this and that. They and them, whatever. It's a, it's a harmless thing 'cause everyone has pronouns. It's just a, a matter of, of what they are. 'cause most people will go, oh yeah, if, 'cause if you, if someone doesn't care, it just goes, knows it's a thing. It just goes, oh yeah, I'm, I'm he hip. Might have never thought about. It just goes, yeah, that suits me. It's fine. Whereas if someone, if, if you say that to someone goes, ask, oh, what are your pronouns, by the way, or any other number of feminist things that go, how are you? How are you, how are you feeling? What do you, what did you think about this? What did you, what did you cook yesterday? Do you like cooking any number of non stereotypically male things? This is particularly good for men to. To sort of, if they are antagonistic, they can take things as insults that you are saying as things that are, are objectively nice things. So if you ask someone something like, oh, do you like cooking? Or they might go, oh, you think I'm some kind of fairy queen, or some kind of housewife. And that's the Louis Farru thing that he does perfectly is he, he sits there and. And sets someone up and then they feel safe is thinking right? He's uh, he's like, he looks up to me, he thinks I'm awesome. And so they be the way that they truly are. And that's when you see them outside of like in the clear light. 'cause when you see them in light in their group inside their manosphere, they can, that's what causes the feeling of me going, maybe I'm wrong, am I wrong? Am I stupid with these things? But then when you take them out of that context and you see them that way, that's when, that's the, the moment when you go, oh, no, I, they, they are unhinged. They're their way of dealing with things. This person is unhinged and not everyone is like that. They're are, they're like the, the, the leader unhinged people, and then people who. Sort of assume that go, oh, they're, they're probably normal-ish, and that's fine. But then if you ask a, a question that triggers that aggressive side of them, that's when other people can look and go, well, I, I don't, I don't, I think that there are only two genders, but by my brother's gay, and he called. He called him all sorts of gay slurs attached to his misogyny. So you can, it's enough for us to approach the world with our feminist mindset and trying to, we can introduce that to areas. And if someone, if someone is, if, if someone's attacking someone else, then that's an area where you can, it's better to step in if it's a, if it's a, a personal, like direct attack on someone, if someone's using like gendered stereotypes in general, or, or any numbers sort of like the, the passive environmental sort of. Issues rather than being looking Right. You are, you are stupid and you, you say you're non-binary and that's a, that's a stupid thing. That's the time to go to extricate the person from that environment. Um Mm. But yeah, picking our battles, but it coming from, we don't, it's not as, it's not as, it doesn't have to be as like scary and confrontational. 'cause confrontation is. Dangerous. It's, that's the truth of it. Yeah. And the more, the more, the more antagonized particularly a man feels, that's when they get more there. They become more intense in that way, which is another massive part of why this, what this study is showing is that the more you quote unquote rock the boat. The more aggression you're gonna get in response.

Jem 28:52

Absolutely. I mean, there's so many, you, you raised so many interesting points in that I wanted to pick up on the, the, the point you made about sort of passing and about how. And I think it's, you know, it's possible for all of us to pass in this respect because we can, we, we can just let it go. We don't have to engage, we don't have to challenge people. And even though I do think that as much as we can, as. In a, in a way that's safe. We, we should be challenging people. I think, as you say, there are, it's well worth picking your battles. And it also doesn't have to be head on. It doesn't have to be aggressive. And I think, you know, Alex, what you were saying about. It's sort of, people responding quite negatively because they're feeling that they've been cri criticized. I mean, none of us want to be criticized. None of us want to be you know, told that we're doing something wrong. And our and even if we go away and think about it and go, well, actually, yeah, no, they had a point at the time. Our instinct is to be defensive. So I think, you know, it's, it is quite important and it's quite incumbent on us as, as. Active feminists who are, you know, engaged in this issue and, and, and thinking about this a lot, to actually be a bit clever about how we challenge people and to not do it in a sort of conflict in sort of aggressive way, but to actually do it in a more. You know, come and join us with the you want with the right side.

Alex 30:31

I think humor also tends to help quite a lot. I very rarely am thinking quick enough to deploy wit in these situations, but I think it can win people around without them really realizing as well, if you not, not saying make a joke at their expense, but you can get them to see your side of things through humor as well. Definitely. Yeah.

Jem 30:54

And also that's

Matt 30:54

part the killjoy thing as well is the idea that being feminist means that you are boring.

Alex 31:00

Taking serious or uninteresting.

Jem 31:01

Yeah. Taking the fun out of everything. Yeah.

Matt 31:06

That's just another, another falsity that goes. Right. We, we, we play games. Our main other thing that we share in common is we play games. We play so many games. We play so much more. Than 95% of adult people play at any time.

Jem 31:28

Mm-hmm.

Matt 31:29

And I know that, I know that I, I, my gaming life is interesting 'cause I find it interesting. And that is just another thing where we can, we need to be unlearning these internalized messages that we, we feel. About ourselves in like, yeah. Thinking about the way people think about feminism and feminists and starting trying to dictate what, how we behave based on that is just maddening.

Jem 32:07

Yeah. In so many ways. I mean, one of the things that, um. The, the, the other studies found was that that women would conceal themselves. They can conceal themselves, that they are female, they can conceal that they have these views. They might avoid games where they have a, a very misogynistic characters or. Themes in there or they might behave in certain ways and sort of be, be a certain way in games. And I think I experienced that quite heavily when I was playing World of Warcraft actually, because almost all of the female players would play. Healer characters, they would play priests or healing druids. So they were the caregivers, even in a virtual environment. And it was fascinating, really fascinating how much they would do that. At most, they would generally be, damage they would, but it was usually like a ranger, so they'd be back out of the, out of the main fight. Whereas my character was a tank. But I feel like even my character was a a sort of half in, half out, because I was a druid tank, which meant that I would turn into a big bear and be in there. But I, I was the main tank for our, for our guild, and we were a really good raiding guild. And so I was right in the center, right at the, in the middle of the fight, and I was the one who was stopping everyone else, getting their butts kicked. Although, you know, in that situation, everyone has a role to play. But there were so many people who would get quite cross about the fact that not only was it a druid tank because they thought that it should be a warrior tanking, um, but um. They'd get cross about that, but they'd also get cross about the fact that I was female. And they, they did not like that, that the, that the main tank in the guild was female. I loved it because it just set me apart from, from all the other women. But it was this thing. It was this thing that across the board that, you know, you could almost always guarantee if somebody said, oh yeah, I play World of World Cross, and they were female, you'd be like, well, what character did you play? And it would be a priest. It would, it would always be this healing role. And I think that there is an issue where women in online spaces do end up. Conforming to gender stereotypes because it's easier than standing against it in any way. You know, whether that's by playing the big bulky warrior characters or by calling somebody out, you know, the, the bans on the, on the, um, in the group chat and all of that, that, that. You know, it's, it's almost taking a step further back than asking them to challenge things. They're, they're literally like minimizing themselves down so that they're not having to, to get the abuse. And I think that probably speaks a lot to the level of abuse that female players get in these online spaces. And when people talk to me about my experiences in those spaces, I didn't, I would always say that I didn't receive a lot of abuse for being female, but then I'll be talking and I'll say, yeah, like I just did. You know, there was a lot of people who didn't like the fact that I was, I was a female tanker and there were people who refused to join our guild because of it. They said they, they wouldn't be part of a guild where I was tanking.

Alex 35:56

You were too much of a, of a disruption to this state of

Jem 35:59

mind. Yeah, it was my big bare butt causing too much distraction. Um, there were lots of jokes about that, to be fair. But I think, you know, I was also older when I was doing that. I was, you know, I was. I was in my late twenties, so I, I had a little bit more about me. I was married, I was, you know, I had not owned a home, you know, I was kind of doing the grownup stuff. So I think I, I think had I been doing that when I was younger, I probably wouldn't have played that role. And I probably wouldn't. I mean, my previous character on a, on a, on the game that I ran, helped to run was a, um. It was a nymph, a wood nymph who ran around in barely any clothes. I mean, it was all text based. You couldn't see anything. But, you know, that was the character that I decided to, to, to play in that environment because, you know, that was, that fitted in more in that world for me. So I, I think, you know, it is interesting to see how that's changed. I mean, do you feel like there is, is there a kind of acceptable female. Character, female, not female character, female way for women to be in an online space?

Alex 37:18

That's an interesting question. I was thinking about how how men tend to react to the presence of a woman in a, in an online gaming space. And I think ideally, um, the best way for a woman to be gaming online is however she wants to be. Because the more women that make that are visible, or rather just, you know, not hiding, being online, the more normal, quote unquote, it will become for everyone gaming. Kind of bringing back to the, the phrase I used earlier, the disruption to the story is quite, if I'm being, I don't know, maybe generous is the right word, but what women gamers represent for those. Men is a, a big change of disruption. Something that shakes up what's normal for them and they may be reacting perhaps with fear or uncertainty and just, you know, not really sure how to handle it. And that's being incredibly generous 'cause really, you know, they've been conditioned to, to feel that women don't necessarily belong in these spaces. Which is mm-hmm. I think the more prevalent view. But there's a lot at play. I mean, I'm gonna obviously have been playing armchair psychologists just said, talking about things like fear and, and that sort of stuff. But I think it all kind of wraps itself into one and I think the more that we can normalize women. Being gamers and women in online spaces with everyone else, the more, the more accepted it will become, which again is a pretty obvious statement, really. Um, not exactly breaking new ground here, but, uh, yeah, it's, it is just interesting to sort of ponder, you know, all that's at play in these situations. And I think it is, it is disappointing that it still happens. To a lot of women, just recently, I think in the last sort of year or so, I, um, decided I fancied a bit of time gaming with a group of Tom's friends and they were playing Scrabble. And I thought, oh, pop won, play some Scrabble. And we were all on, all on voice chat and stuff. And then someone who joins the group occasionally but who I didn't know and they didn't know me, obviously, we hadn't been introduced. We were all chatting normally and then. The conversation stops and the guy goes, can I just ask something here? Who's the woman? Like that? And it all became super, super awkward. Wow. I was like, I was really disappointed in myself. 'cause I didn't really speak up 'cause I was just a bit like, oh my God, did that just happen? Tom didn't speak up either, and he felt really upset about it after I said him not to worry. 'cause like we were both just a bit like, oh my God, where is that come from? And then one of his friends was like, oh mate, you've gotta work on your introductions, you know, and tr and like, and then from there it kind of deescalated and it got extra awkward. One of one of them was like, oh, it's um, Tom's girlfriend actually. And then he was like, oh, sorry, sorry. But it was just really, um. I'd obviously wrong footed him to such a degree that he felt like he needed to ask that question. Perhaps that group doesn't often game with, uh, their other halves as much. Um, but it certainly unfortunately put me off from joining the group in future. Yeah. And I think Tom has, well. You know, you, that person joins the group every, every now and then, but Tom isn't like close friends with that person, so it's kind of, you know, he's just sort of happy to not be around. But, um, yeah, it was, there was an interesting one but it definitely left me feeling a bit unsettled and sort of. Disappointed that I couldn't speak up in the moment, but I think when that, when that sort of thing happens, it, it just sort of hits you. You're like, oh, so this does still occur then. But yeah, it, it, it just, I think for me, maybe felt like he was reacting more because he was unsettled by there being a new person. And that's very generous of me to say. But, uh, yeah. It's a strange,

Jem 41:43

well, that's the thing, isn't it? We always want to believe the best in people and we want to think that they're being, you know, so we give them the, we give them the benefit of the doubt more often than not. And, and I think that's probably the right way to be, but it does mean that people do get away with stuff that, you know, they should be called out on and you know, but

Matt 42:04

that could have been a fabulous learning experience because it's a. A again, the it's not on you and Tom to, to, to educate. Educate people. There's like with anything, with like, equality isn't only the women's problem No, exactly. To solve. It's not your problem to solve. But having. If, if I, if it had been me, you, and Tom, and that had happened, I would've pissed myself laughing first. Yeah. And gone. Who's the woman? Yeah.

Alex 42:41

Yeah.

Matt 42:41

That you,

Alex 42:42

that was pretty much how everyone

Matt 42:43

else was laughing.

Alex 42:44

Yeah.

Matt 42:44

Who is the woman?

Alex 42:46

Yeah.

Matt 42:46

That is a wild thing to say.

Alex 42:49

Yeah. Yes. Yes.

Matt 42:50

And go. Right. What? And. Have that, have that be the first thing going. First off, that is a fucking unhinged thing to say, isn't it? That's so far away from normal. And that's, that's like the, that's the Manus fear thing is going, that is a, actually, actually bringing that actually like expressing that is, is. A, a wild like crashing together of reality and Yeah. And these, these stereotypes and ways of thinking, because like when you're saying it's, it's, it can become easier to like express yourself without worrying so much mm-hmm. In places the older you get, because the, the older you get, the more reality. Has weighed down on you and beaten, beaten into you to the sense of how the world actually works and the way women are supposed to be. This mythical like version of women that the manosphere says they should be is so just. Stratospheric incompatible with how life actually works.

Jem 44:18

Absolutely. Yeah. That's

Matt 44:20

such a good point there. They want, they want to go sort say to you, who's the woman, and then go, oh, that's Tom's girlfriend, and sort go, oh, Tom. Why, why is she here? Women shouldn't be gaming. Why, why do women, women aren't fun.

Alex 44:38

It's, it's just even more funny because all it was was Scrabble. Yeah. Like, it's not even like a gen a gendered game or anything really. You know?

Matt 44:48

Just Yeah. That why that, that, that element of, that's, that's, that's crazy. So my first thing would've been to piss myself laughing. And then that, that person can either properly change mm-hmm. Or never come. It should be a sort of a, a scorched earth thing where you go, if you truly believe that, then you are not welcome here. Mm-hmm. If you, if you want to double down on that, then you are not welcome here. We, we don't want that here. If you've. Didn't realize how unhinged that is. It's not just you being rude. It's this, again, this massive, I like institutional ecosystem stretching back until like the dawn of time. If you, if you can realize that you said that, not just go, oh, I, I, I just, I was just being a bit rude or I was a bit tired or whatever. It's because of this long history of things. And go, oh, actually I'd, I'd like to change and not be based on that. Because then the reason white people, certain white people get angry when you talk about racism is because they take it personally. They don't think, I look back and look at like the racism of white people and go, they're, they're not. I hope I wouldn't be like that. I don't know. I have no way of knowing if I, if I wouldn't. But if I, I look back now and I think I'm on, I'm on the, the integrationist side, not the segregationist side. And the people who get angry are going, well, I, I'd probably be the, I'd probably be the segregationist the way I am now, let alone how I, how I would be in the past. And so if someone, if you go to someone like you, you said that. We are laughing at you now because we think it's, it's unhinged. This is the sort of thinking that leads to this. If you wanna look at why you said that you can. And if you go, oh yeah, my, my perspective on women has been built up from this system. That's the system's fault. You can, now that you know, you can choose to do things differently or you can choose to say the same, but yeah, I, it's not fair when that sort of person is, they are normalized in, in a group, in a group setting. That's why like, again, I'm only work, work coming, like coming to these conclusions very recently as to how I express myself. And how I interact with other people and to build a, build a, a team around you that has, that, it's not just what we, what we think is a good idea, it's that it's actually, we are safe places for other people who think of, feel like us. So if it had been. The three of us and Tom and then a couple of other people, I think, I think between us, we would've been able to to, mm-hmm. It's not just about because diffusing it isn't fair. It's not fair that, that we should have to diffuse other people's aggression to be able to just pivot it and. I, I, I think about, I think it's very, very, very, very important for us to be safe places for other feminists. Mm-hmm. And other people who might be vulnerable to attack.

Jem 48:54

Yeah.

Matt 48:54

Because that's, that's what our, that's our passive state.

Jem 48:57

Mm. Yeah.

Matt 48:59

Yeah. And that sometimes that is, that's plenty. That's all we need to

Jem 49:02

do. Yeah. I think that's right. And I think what is the saddest thing about the story that you've just shared, Alex, is that at the end of the day, that excluded you, his behavior pushed you out of that. That social group that, I mean obviously I'm sure you have contact with those people. Yeah. But it pushed you outta that. Is he his, his I ignorant. Let's give him that. His ignorant behavior made you feel uncomfortable to the point that you don't want to join. In with them anymore. And for me, that's, that's the problem there. That's, you know, you've been, you've been pushed out when he, he was the one in the wrong and, and that's what happens so often.

Alex 49:47

Yeah.

Jem 49:48

For women and, you know, anyone who isn't, you know, doesn't fit the, the, um, I dunno, the dominant part of society. So I just wanted to, you know, this idea of the safe space and what you were talking about, Matt, about sort of providing, I suppose, backup for other people. I'm really aware that we're, we've already gone massively over time, so this is just a very, I just want very quick response on this and then we'll then we'll close the episode, but, how do you feel that doing this podcast has impacted you in, in regards to these issues? Do you, do you feel that it has made you a potential target for sort of more negative attitudes, or do you feel that it's made you. Stronger in your, in your views and more confident, more able to stand up to things because we talk about it so much and you know that, you know, there's a, a, a small but um, vocal group who would be there to back you up if you needed it.

Alex 51:01

I think for me, when we get to. When we do get any traction on social media, I sometimes do feel a little bit more of a target, but outside of that, I'm really, I feel really affirmed by what we're doing and like I was just thinking about it today, how nice it feels to be able to chat about these sorts of things with you guys and just sort of think, oh. There's a group of people who I'm friends with who I can talk to about these things, and I know that there'll be that support for me and that safe space, like you were saying that. So yeah, that would be my very quick answer for you.

Jem 51:39

Yeah.

Matt 51:40

Yeah. I've, it's every time I, I, I think about, I worry about someone knowing about my feminist. My feminist self. Um, I've been very inspired by watching the Angry Joe Show, actually, actually 'cause Alex there is, he's six foot five, he's hench. And he looks like the sort of person who would, who would not be a gamer. Who, 'cause he's, he's six foot five and got a great head of hair and a beard and, and his hench. But every time he's so just ridiculously himself, his complete unique self at all times. He's a, and he's a, he's a level, level two magic, the gathering judge. And there are only three levels of. Magic gathering judge. Uh, and he could basically, he could out nerd, literally anyone who might say to him, oh, you can't be a real gamer. Go, dude, I have a, I have a, I have, I have one thousands of dollars playing magic. The Gathering. I'm a level two Magic Inc. Magic gathering judge. Look at all my cards. I've got ring binding cards. And this idea that you can, you can be a really like, relentless version of yourself. And what that does is means that you, you are forced to find people who accept that real you, you, rather than fitting it around. And what I've always done is try to contort myself to fit what other, what I think other people want me to be, which is mad thing anyway. And so, as with feminism, that it, it reflects part of my soul. So to. To try and tone that down within myself would be catastrophic for me.

Jem 53:45

Mm-hmm.

Matt 53:46

Because it's, it's, it's part of the real me. And if we can have that real us, be it, our center going outwards, it's, that's, that's the way I think.

Jem 54:03

Oh, well, I think, we'll. And there. I think that was just a really nice sentiment, Matt and. I think that's a perfect way to end the episode. So thank you both so much for your, um, thoughts on this topic yet again, I thought it was gonna be a quick one and, uh, I should have known better. I'll get, I'll get one day, I'll get it right. But yeah, thanks ever so much. We are here every Thursday and we are releasing stuff all the time, so, you know, if you've. Got something that you think we should be talking about. Let us know if you've got any thoughts on this episode. Comment like, share, get us out there. This is important stuff that we're talking about and you know, the research is showing that things are still problematic and we still have work to do. So, you know, we are, um, talking about it all the time and we are a safe space. So, you know, feel free to join us. In our little feminist echo chamber. So thank you both very much and we'll see you soon. Bye

Alex 55:07

bye.