Player Two: Who Got Us Into Gaming? Episode 285

It's just Jem and Alex this week, unpacking the tangled and often very gendered paths that led them to gaming. 

They talk printouts of Tomb Raider walkthroughs, MUDs, WoW guilds, boardgaming and family influences.

The chat gets into how the men in their lives and later, the women, shaped how they played and how they differed. 

There;s also a shoutout for a women's gaming retreat that's already booked out its next round. 

 #PlayerTwo #GamingOriginStory #TombRaider #LaraCroft #RetroGaming #90sGaming #MUDs #WorldOfWarcraft #BoardGameCafe #WomensGamingRetreat #GamingNostalgia #HowIGotIntoGaming 

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Transcript

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Speaker 0:15

Hello and welcome back to another episode of Gaming the System, the podcast where three intersectional feminists examine gaming and games through a feminist lens. I'm your host today. I'm Jem, and I'm joined by my friend Alex. So before we get started, if you want to support us, you can subscribe to our patron at patron.com/gaming the system for some exclusive content. Or you can send us a one-off donation via PayPal to our email address. We are gaming the system@gmail.com.

Jem 0:52

I thought it would be really nice to talk to you about how you got into gaming and, we're minus Matt today, so I thought it might be interesting because women are usually indoctrinated into gaming through the men in their lives. So I think if that's our story, then that's, fair enough. That's the reality that we live in. I also wanted to maybe talk a little bit about the sorts of people who've impacted our gaming experiences or influenced the games that we've played or the games we've liked or not liked, all sorts of things. So this is, player two who got you into gaming? So how did you get into gaming, Alex?

Alex 1:42

So

Jem 1:42

Well,

Alex 1:43

I,

Jem 1:44

guess my

Alex 1:44

introduction

Jem 1:45

to

Alex 1:45

gaming, as

Jem 1:46

was

Alex 1:46

mentioned many a time in the past, is in the mid-'90s, about 1996-ish, with the demo of Tomb Raider 2, my uncle picked up on PC Gamer magazine.

Jem 2:00

Oh,

Alex 2:03

magazines,

Jem 2:04

I miss those days. I miss that.

Alex 2:07

They're so good. And they came with a magazine, and it would have all the reviews and articles all about upcoming games on it. And, this one happened to have Tomb Raider 2, and I think it did probably feature an image of Lara Croft on the front of the magazine, but I can't remember exactly. But, it was really my uncle that obviously played it, and then we would sit around the PC, in his lounge and watch it. And my mum... 'Cause my uncle lived with us as a family, all in the same house. And we used to sit and watch it. And I think it was about three months, from what we can all recollect, that we took to figure out that you can get out of the bottom of the cave you start in the, first level, which is the Great Wall of China. So we would spend about three months, seeing the helicopter fly off, killing the tiger, killing another tiger if you go into the water, just jumping around some rocks and not knowing how to get up to the bits higher up on the, on the cliff, which were cl- clearly climbable, but we couldn't figure it out. And then as soon as we figured out that actually it was quite difficult, and there's no signposting, of course, in these older games. You would have to do a jump onto the wall and then backflip off the wall onto the edge of the ledge so that Lara would be standing right on the edge of the ledge. But yeah, it was quite a complicated maneuver, and we played with a joystick. Like, you know the simulator joysticks

Jem 3:36

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Alex 3:38

how we controlled Lara. It was very, very not your normal keyboard and mouse controls because I, I for one found them too difficult, 'cause I couldn't look down and look at the So that was way very, long-winded introduction to gaming, shall From that obsessed with Tomb Raider, point then we became silent as a family And that's where it's really started out.

Jem 4:08

and that's a really when it started out. Once we got a PC in our half of the house,

Alex 4:11

that's when we when we found the Yes. Like the

Jem 4:15

a more educational type of games

Alex 4:16

get

Jem 4:17

some of the maths

Alex 4:18

English

Jem 4:18

like English maths sort of stuff.

Alex 4:20

Wallace

Jem 4:21

we got that, That's what it was.

Alex 4:24

And

Jem 4:24

and then once my sister was born, Kind of then started to go with like the,

Alex 4:28

we

Jem 4:28

we would play things like the, Do you remember the pets games? Yes. I loved those. Yeah.

Alex 4:35

Essentially, but that you could

Jem 4:37

with the pets and you- Yeah. Like the Sims but for pets.

Alex 4:39

but

Jem 4:39

Like really basic Sims for pets.

Alex 4:41

yeah. And you could pet the cats or the dogs, and you could feed them, and they'd

Jem 4:46

Yeah, pet

Alex 4:47

and

Jem 4:47

simulator. And then we went from

Alex 4:52

and that's Ellie's game

Jem 4:54

that into like a puzzle stage. And then we would accompany them with like Barbie games. Barbie would come out with like makeup games and we, of course, would like play, play some of that.

Alex 5:06

so

Jem 5:06

so it's kind of very rooted in family and then inside what the family could afford to buy

Alex 5:12

they

Jem 5:12

me, but they thought was appropriate for my age and my likes and things. And then as we grew up

Alex 5:18

through

Jem 5:18

our

Alex 5:19

sort

Jem 5:19

sort of primary

Alex 5:20

secondary

Jem 5:21

school and secondary school years,

Alex 5:22

I

Jem 5:22

I think a lot of the games we played were

Alex 5:25

tie-ins

Jem 5:26

to films

Alex 5:27

or

Jem 5:28

books that we would have read.

Alex 5:30

So

Jem 5:30

things that we would all be familiar

Alex 5:32

with,

Jem 5:32

with, books that had been created into a game. Mm. War

Alex 5:38

Some

Jem 5:38

some of the Hobbits and- Yes.

Alex 5:42

Lord of the Rings ones.

Jem 5:44

Obviously all the

Alex 5:49

And then I think I got into Spyro when I was between primary

Jem 5:54

Playmobil stuff and then I think I got into Spyro when I was in secondary school. I never played Spyro.

Alex 5:57

Friend

Jem 5:59

His daughter was playing video games and then got this

Alex 6:04

getting into

Jem 6:04

called Stardew Valley and then got super into it. So it was very much through the people in

Alex 6:08

our

Jem 6:08

my life who introduced And then

Alex 6:15

didn't

Jem 6:16

really do video stuff a lot

Alex 6:18

established

Jem 6:18

So I was very sort of not just, not, not what you might necessarily think of as a gamer- Mm-hmm ...age. And

Alex 6:26

then, once I got

Jem 6:27

I got into, like, university, met professors and asked them if they could really introduce me to any, like, uncharted waters. Because the truth

Alex 6:38

Creed. He was

Jem 6:39

you like doing, there

Alex 6:39

if you like Tomb

Jem 6:40

are people doing

Alex 6:40

gonna

Jem 6:41

it. Absolutely, yeah.

Alex 6:43

And that really marked a sort of evolution, as it were. If you imagine

Jem 6:47

And

Alex 6:47

early

Jem 6:48

then I'd get, like, very kind of

Alex 6:52

through my

Jem 6:53

my usual playing games and widening my

Alex 6:56

scope of what I, what

Jem 6:58

of games that

Alex 6:58

was enjoying

Jem 6:59

enjoying and thinking, "Right,

Alex 7:00

wouldn't

Jem 7:01

really go out of my comfort zone,"

Alex 7:03

'cause

Jem 7:03

'cause I think

Alex 7:05

I'd

Jem 7:05

I find a lot of

Alex 7:06

quite

Jem 7:06

games quite scary

Alex 7:07

wouldn't want

Jem 7:08

I wouldn't get scared or anything like that.

Alex 7:10

But I

Jem 7:11

I think

Alex 7:12

once

Jem 7:12

what I found

Alex 7:14

experience with either recommendations through family friends or my first boyfriend, I would, then begin to see actually that gaming's a lot larger than I

Jem 7:23

out- But I've

Alex 7:27

expanding the sort of catalog that I played and sort of making choices based on my own previous game catalog and what I liked and maybe I'll try this new game. No one else I know has played it, but I'll give it a go. And sort of got more confident with the types of games that I played. And now with my current, partner, Tom, gotten

Jem 7:48

more into

Alex 7:50

things like

Jem 7:50

like podcasts and things like that.

Alex 7:52

So

Jem 7:53

Mm.

Alex 7:53

Sort

Jem 7:54

I love

Alex 7:54

in terms of the

Jem 7:56

People taking up games like

Alex 7:57

gaming life, as it were.

Jem 7:59

I really like to do that.

Alex 8:00

Branched out into different,

Jem 8:01

a friend who's a different age and when I took them to one of the local, game, you know, PR things and I definitely sort of Them up, pretty fast and then also connected me to another friend who also then was really into it.

Alex 8:20

But yeah,

Jem 8:20

yeah, I think in terms

Alex 8:22

people that

Jem 8:23

that I've introduced to,

Alex 8:27

it's largely

Jem 8:29

gaming,

Alex 8:29

of my

Jem 8:30

it's largely been my mum and my friends that I know. My mum really enjoyed watching us play.

Alex 8:35

Having

Jem 8:35

Having it sort of like a happy-

Alex 8:38

Meaningful hobby, I guess, is to have that involvement from family and of course you know about our love of board games and,

Jem 8:46

for profit, I guess.

Alex 8:46

Christmas games at Christmas, like the old-fashioned sorts of games that we play as well. I guess it's, it

Jem 8:52

definitely got people

Alex 8:54

part family.

Jem 8:55

coming

Alex 8:56

people have come into my life, it's usually the men in my life

Jem 9:01

in,

Alex 9:01

well.

Jem 9:02

The

Alex 9:03

in the podcast,

Jem 9:04

community and, wanting To work in games. Just with games in

Alex 9:08

catalog of games and the types of games that I play, through recommendations from yourself, Jem, and Matt as well. Yeah

Jem 9:15

general and being on top of games companies as well. So I guess it's, it is a lot about having Mm. Other people coming into the community and wanting to work in the industry. Mm. I think that's because of the podcast. Yeah. They're already in there. They're already in- Yeah, I think, the podcast has massively influenced my gaming experience if o- if only to make me, more prepared to sort of try different things or step out of my comfort zone or whatever. And that's, that's been a really fun sort of exploration. I think in terms of, who got me into gaming it was my brother. Because he asked for a ZX Spectrum back in the early '80s, and so we were playing, like, little really basic graphics sort of, platform games. I'd play things like Donkey Kong and, Manic Miner and, you know, those sorts of games. I'd never really... I mean, th- they were fun, but they didn't really catch me. And it was really the games that really caught me were the sort of text adventure, sort of choose your own adventure kind of style games that were, that had this real narrative story to them, and it was all about what, you know, what are you gonna do? Are you gonna go north, east, south, west? Or are you gonna, attack so and so with your sword and things like that. I really loved those games. And then later, I really got into, a game called, Dungeon Master, it was basically, Well, I suppose it was like old 3D, but it was basically like just walking forward and then you could go sort of different directions. And it was first person and you'd come up against something and then you would have to do a spell, by combining, different symbols together in a certain combination, and then that would cast the spell. There was quite a lot of thinking and quite a lot of, note-writing and map-drawing, and all of that. But I, again, the reason that I played that was because, my boyfriend at the time had an old, I want to say Amstrad. And so I played it on that. He, he'd dug it out of the attic and I... and we sort of set it all up. It was recent enough that it still worked, but old enough that it would be classed as retro. So that would've been in the late '90s. I had friends at school who had, consoles. Somebody had one of the old, like a SNES and we used to go round there and play, like the little racing games and things like that. Well, more often they were playing the racing games and we would sort of hang about so, it was always around me, but I don't know if I necessarily took ownership of it until I was sort of in my late teens. And then I got into, online gaming, and that was when I got into playing multi-user dungeons, MUDs, and, really enjoyed that. But again, I think for me, what really kind of sucked me into it was the social aspect. So it was gaming, but it was chatting and gaming with other people. And I think that's one of the things that, to me, is quite important for my gaming experience, is the social element of it. And I think that's why doing this podcast has been such a positive influence for me, is because it provides a sort of social element to the gaming. Because many, many games these days Are not sort of social experiences. Like, for me anyway, I don't play in the online world very much anymore. I don't really want to 'cause I find it quite toxic. I find it quite hard work really. So that doesn't really appeal to me. So it's nice to have another element that sort of provides that social aspect that I used to get when I was mudding. And the thing is, is I liked the mudding because I liked playing alongside chatting, because it would fill in the boredom. So like, when I played World of Warcraft, I liked nothing more than, chatting away to somebody whilst I was grinding for, some herbs or some rare metals or something like that, or doing boring, like, escort quests and things like that. It was so much more fun whilst chatting away to somebody. It was definitely men almost all the way along who influenced my gaming. And I find that frustrating because I think, "Well, why? Wh- why were... why did it take men to..." You know, what, what, what was it? I came into contact with other women, certainly in the online space, but there wasn't much camaraderie or sisterliness going on there. It was very competitive. The women in that space were very competitive.

Alex 14:29

It's really interesting when you think that like the 50% of gamers are guys, I get that. exposure that we have, the pre-exposure that we have, to gaming is- sort of dependent on around us, and usually at the time we were growing up, it was men that were gaming. it's really interesting as well, the sort of social impact, that you've talked about. When I think about when I mentioned into Tomb Raider when we were very young, it was essentially the event of the evening. So my uncle his half of the house is the other side of the kitchen, and whenever he would start Tomb Raider up, he'd turn the volume up really loud. So we would hear the theme tune and be like, "Oh my God, Tomb Raider!" And then we'd run to the

Jem 15:16

Oh, I love that. That's so cute.

Alex 15:19

Mum would come through eventually and sit with us

Jem 15:22

I

Alex 15:26

walkthrough. Shout out to Stella.

Jem 15:28

know, you're

Alex 15:32

Martin would have them, my uncle, he'd have them printed out

Jem 15:35

so

Alex 15:35

into ring binders, into files, and I would, have it open on my lap and read through the walkthrough 'cause you can't play those games without a walkthrough really. Would be essentially the entertainment for the evening. So it was very social. And then of course we'd have the board gaming. I think, there are aspects of my gaming which are very, very sort of solo. And I'm happy about that 'cause that's important as well. But I think now that I've started playing more board games and stuff, that's that social a- aspect. And of course playing with you guys when we're on streaming and talking about gaming as well, has definitely welcomed back that social aspect now that I've m- obviously we're all adults and we've moved away from home. I think that that, transition obviously from the '90s through to where are we now, the mid-2020s, there's a, there's a lot more that people can choose to do to entertain themselves of an evening. And I'm very pleased, I think, that we live so close to such a good board game cafe, which has been

Jem 16:44

lucky.

Alex 16:45

An excellent episode of this podcast where we've interviewed Katie and Sarah, who set up, Wayfarer's Rest, the local board game cafe to me. And that is a very sort of inclusive space where there are a whole mixture of different people from families, groups of friends, people just catching up over coffee. But it is, it is not by any means, heavily one side of, of the gender spectrum compared to the other.

Jem 17:12

Stressful

Alex 17:12

be in some sort of, board game cafe setups.

Jem 17:15

for

Alex 17:15

I think having that space and for especially kids coming in, seeing a whole bunch of different people there, going to, less sort of influenced or not by the people who are playing those games as well. I think that's very important.

Jem 17:33

There are ways that, people can get along and copy, but it is, it is not failing in, heavily on the side of the younger generation. Which it can be in some situations or game situations. But I think having that space, and for especially kids coming in seeing all adults playing together, they're going to, feel less sort of influenced possibly a lot by peers. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, when I went to my first meetup for people who played the game, I was one of-- I think there was about 40 people there, and the-- I was one of three girls, three women, I mean, we were all in our-- We were all, like, 20, 18, 20. No, 18, 19. I think I was 19 when I went to my first one. Was it

Alex 18:03

Was it quite

Jem 18:04

Yeah, it was really intimidating, and I actually took my brother with me, who was completely useless. And I don't really know. I mean, I just-- I went, and I was, I, I don't think I would've been able to go if my brother hadn't been there, And they were lovely, and I'm still in touch with, people that I met then, which is just awesome. And, they were all really kind to me. I felt intimidated to go, but actually once I met everyone, they were all lovely. And it was a good group of people But over the years, obviously that balance did definitely shift. And by the time I was playing World of Warcraft, it was much closer to a sort of probably a 60/40 split in favor of the men. And there were loads of other women in the guild that I was part of. It was probably a 60/40 split, and the women were all ages, ranging from, late teens to, mums or, women in their 40s. It was really nice because actually there was a group of gamer girls there that we could interact with. And I think that really started to shift my approach to gaming. My gaming in those years was heavily influenced by my, ex-husband, who I had met during my MUDDING years. It was very much his thing,

Alex 19:29

Yeah.

Jem 19:29

And so over the years, I began to feel that I was doing it more for him than for me. We often played the games that he wanted to play. We played when he wanted to play them. And actually, it became quite problematic for me, when I was working we played StarCraft together, and over the, local network at home, our LAN network. That would be fine, but he would always want to go on later than I would. And so it got to a point where I would be like, "Actually, I'm just not gonna play. I don't wanna start because we can't stop." And I think that was a lot more to do with his issues than my issues, but I was too young and, innocent to realize what was going on there. So we got to a point where actually gaming together became really hard work. And then later, we got into World of Warcraft, and that problem really only got worse. But the benefit was that he didn't necessarily need me to be there because it was a multiplayer game. He would be on playing late, and I would leave earlier. But I have, like, quite a lot of- Well, trauma associated with that period of my life for... Not for the gaming reasons, for other reasons, but the gaming really suffered from that.

Alex 20:54

Yeah.

Jem 20:55

what's really interesting for me is that after I left that relationship, it was actually women who got me back into gaming. So it, a- absolutely was. And I'd tried really hard to fall back in love with gaming, and I did feel this massive gap in my life where when I'd stopped gaming. I definitely missed it, but I couldn't find a way back to it, and I'd sort of dip in and dip out, and dip in and dip out. So I was always a, like, a geek, and because of my World of Warcraft sort of heritage, I think that was one of the things. I talked about that in some setting to do with the Women's Equality party, and Caroline heard me talking about it, and then she pulled us together, so you, me, Matt, and herself, because she knew that we were all into gaming. You know, she pulled us together and set us off on this journey. And it just really opened up this whole different experience and different relationship with gaming that I hadn't had. And I think it's really lovely that it was women who helped me come back to gaming, you know, because now, I'm in regular contact with Caroline. She's not on the pod anymore, but she's still very much in my life and we game together. We play D&D together, and we talk games together a lot. Finn, who's been on the pod, also, very much into their gaming and, we've done a few episodes with them about, Baldur's Gate 3. And, we all play board game arena games. It's just been really nice to have an experience with a different group of people and not just that sort of male

Alex 22:53

Yeah.

Jem 22:54

approach. And it also has given another perspective on how you fit gaming into, different lives, you know. We all have very different lives. And I've really enjoyed speaking with you, Alex, about especially things along the lines of, guilt and social attitudes and social expectations and all of that. And it's been really nice to have those conversations with a fellow female because we do have pressures put on us, and we have pressures put on us by society, and we absorb them. And even when we've got, supportive families and relationships and friends, those pressures are still there being beamed into our brains from, you know... So I think that's been a really positive experience for me.

Alex 23:45

Mm-hmm.

Jem 23:45

Yeah.

Alex 23:46

I'm

Jem 23:46

really nice, yeah. How positive it's been for you then quite happy.

Alex 23:50

I I wanted to say that before we end we end, end the episode as well, i I know you shared with about me about the, board gaming game you had chosen- Hmm only, and why they loved the Lake it. I think. I a think mine's really related to so here in our second item of things we've been, they-- I hooked by recently. And I think I read the other day then how women's physical to fitness over the past decade has grown quite nicely. It's So essentially a weekend retreat for women to go and do things yeah. Have a weekend gaming gaming and potentially doing like home brewing and doing art and stuff. And apparently it's been so popular, the the first one, that they've even to booked the next one. And they tried to do like a legacy so people that had booked them had booked previously and come back again. And they've nearly filled up all the future slots already. Wow. And they've had over 600- people sign up up to the newsletter. So so they were like, "we're stuck. Know we don't know what to do," but they're gonna try and figure it out. So there's definitely demand out there for women's gaming safe spaces where we can go and take a load off from being a mom chill out and spend time maybe away from the the pressures of, of life. And and I think that was really just r- just hearing about that. The overflow effect even on these kinds of events, which just shows like how many not only women that game are out there, but how many women that game want space to go and relax and enjoy-

Jem 25:28

Yeah. To be able to game In a space where you're not having to worry about, whether some guy thinks you're coming onto them or not. It's like that, that is the thing because, it can be so exhausting in those environments. And I think the, the other issue is, and, Hmm. massive, like, pinches of salt around it. But, you know, the sort of common, trope really around gaming men is that they're socially inept and, you know, that they're kind of like, "Ooh, it's a girl," you know, and all of that. And I think whether that's true or not, it means that as a woman when you go into those environments, that's in the back of your head. You know, like, "Am I going to be treated, in an odd way because I'm female?" And so you're kind of on your guard. I think that there is a perception of how men will behave in certain situations that may not actually be related to how they actually behave, but it will impact women going into those scenarios.

Alex 26:39

Is also of environment being so very Yeah. Or, or like when, it's where someone will have games that they've a man, for hosted might along but don't invite people that they think are gamers because they might be a target. And sort sort of like that real-life happening which can be, which can be, frustration at times. But yeah, to have that environment where you're you literally go in, you know know, with a a bunch of women and you you're not necessarily know any of them but you're there also there make to kind of connect and make friends and just have a sort of- Mm, yeah safe place initially. But it definitely sounds like they're going to this event to hopefully accommodate more people and make them popular. But they're may going maybe in like extra funding or something.

Jem 27:32

We'll put a link to it in our,

Alex 27:34

No, we'll

Jem 27:35

So, well, that's been so interesting, and I think, it's a shame that Matt wasn't here because, I'd like to hear his sort of game's origin. But I also think it was good for you and I to be able to have a chat about it because I think women do come to gaming in a different way from the way that men do. And I think that that has a quite a big impact on their gaming experience. And I think we could speak for another half hour about all, the ways that the men have influenced the kind of games that we've played. You know, it's like your experience with Lara Croft. Maybe if you'd been introduced to Manic Miner or Sonic or something, it would've been a different experience for you. But, I think, there's lots more to talk about, but we have run out of time today. So, thank you so much, Alex. Always fun to chat. And, yeah, we're here every Thursday, and you can, give us a like, follow us, share us, let us know what you want to talk about. And also, let us know your experiences and how you came into gaming and who influenced your gaming choices. I'm sure we'll be revisiting this subject, so thank you very much, and we'll see you next time. Bye.