476. Krisztián Király

Check out host Bidemi Ologunde's new show: The Work Ethic Podcast, available on Spotify and Apple Podcasts.

Email: bidemiologunde@gmail.com

In this episode, host Bidemi Ologunde sits down with Krisztián Király, International Partnership Manager at OptiMonk, to explore how AI is reshaping conversion rate optimization, why the static website is dying, and what today's smartest e-commerce brands are doing instead. How can AI predict when a shopper is about to leave? What does a "living website" actually look like in practice? And for brands without big dev teams, what quick wins can boost conversions, AOV, and revenue per session in just 30 days? Krisztián also shares lessons from building his own agency, coaching agencies internationally, and creating global B2B SaaS partnerships that drive real growth.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:16

Okay. So thanks for joining me once again on another episode of the Big Picture Podcast. I have a special guest from Hungary. And for those who are not familiar, Hungary is a country in Europe. So over to you.

SPEAKER_00 0:29

Thank you very much for the invitation. Nice to be here. Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 0:34

Thank you, sir. Thank you, sir. So as we're just going to jump into the conversation, can you give us a two-lane, like a two-lane road, a two-lane version of you? You are a partnership manager by day and a CRO showman by night. How did that happen? What does that mean? And so on.

SPEAKER_00 0:57

Okay. Long story but short, summarized. So I'm a digital marketing expert now for more than a decade. For a long time, it means for more than five years, I had my own digital marketing agency here in Hungary. It was a full-strength digital marketing agency because regarding marketing or digital marketing, however you call it, I believe in a holistic approach. I mean, you can manage different areas. Like I know it exactly there are some agencies who are only doing PPC campaigns or only doing SLO or only doing email marketing. It could be also quite successful, it's not a question. But to my experience, the biggest results, the biggest impact can you achieve when you manage all the areas of digital marketing together in synergy. And therefore, I think I say always a holistic approach. This is what really works, to my experience. And therefore, my agency was also a full-stack digital marketing agency where we have managed all the areas of marketing. And I think nowadays it's even more important than the expectations of the customers are higher than ever before. The customer journeys are longer than ever before, before a purchase decision. So therefore, I think it's definitely not enough anymore. For example, just run some meta-ads and hoping that you're gonna have some conversions and bias. If you have luck, but I think it won't be the case, maybe some of them. But definitely nowadays, you have to think in an omni-channel approach. So uh, and then after a time, I must admit, I was a kind of burnout from my own agency. So I have uh changed, and as you have mentioned at the beginning, at the moment I'm working uh by Optimong as an international partnership manager, and it has also a very nice, I would say, pre-story, because it's not the first time for our collaboration with Optimong Together. Five or six years ago, we have made with Optimum Together the first business reality show in Hungary called E-commerce revolution, which was quite successful at that time because we have mentored three e-commerce stores in front of the cameras. So we have showed everything, no hidden secrets, nothing. Also the failures, of course, very honest and very transparent. And I was the mentor of this business reality show, and where we were very proud of it, that we have achieved really nice results. I mean, the best result, what we have achieved by one of the attendees, it was an e-commerce store where we have achieved 68% uplifting revenue only in one month. So I think it was also a proof for that that there are huge possibilities for e-commerce stores with digital marketing if you do it professionally. And then as I have mentioned, and then now um I rejoined to Optimonk as an international partnership manager. So, firstly, I'm uh responsible for nurturing our relationships with our partners, with the agencies, as I have a lot of experience how to manage a digital marketing agency. So it's uh quite optimal for both parts, for both sides, of course. And as I had also always my focus on e-commerce and conversion rate optimization, CRO. And actually, Optimong is an AI-based CRO tool. So I think it's also a very uh, I would say, very successful collaboration together. And I'm doing now as an AI-based CRO expert to educate our partners and of course also our clients, the e-commerce to owners, because I definitely think that AI is the future of the AI-based CRO is the future of e-commerce.

SPEAKER_01 4:52

Thank you for thank you for describing it that way. And one thing I always try to get people to understand is when they say AI is coming to disrupt so many things, and then I look at it like, well, that might be true, but it depends on your openness to how you allow AI to enhance whatever it is you're doing, whether you are a craft um person making products with your hands, or you are working with software all day, or you are a healthcare professional using AI to make sure your notes are accurate after you see patients and so on and so forth. Because people say, well, AI is scary, it's gonna put me out of my job. Well, not necessarily. If you deploy it properly, it's actually going to make you do your work better. And ironically, it's going to give you more things to do. Because a lot of people are afraid, well, AI will replace me, then I will just lose my job. No. AI would make you way more efficient. And you've described it saying it's possible to use AI to optimize marketing. And some of the phrases you've used is quotes, killing boring marketing. So what does the phrase to kill boring marketing mean in your world? And how do you go about it?

SPEAKER_00 6:19

Okay, so first of all, I totally agree with you regarding AI and the future. I have read it in a LinkedIn article. To be honest, I don't remember who was it, but it's definitely not coming from me. But I have read it there that not AI will uh take your job away, but the people who are using AI. And it's definitely true for marketing as well, because we at Optimong, and I personally also look at AI as a tool for leverage that makes your work much more efficient, much more easier. It can save for you a lot of time and energy for the tasks which you don't really like, which you don't really need anymore. And rather you can focus much more on the parts what you really enjoy and which is still definitely needed. For example, in marketing, let's take our area. But I think it's true for all the areas. It doesn't matter if you take marketing or medicine or whatever. And regarding your question, I think that the biggest failure, what you can do in marketing, is that you are boring. Uh, I have read last time a very interesting case study about it. I'm pretty sure you have already heard this quote that attention is the new currency. Because nowadays, in this overcrowded digital space, we get so much noise that our brain is totally overloaded. I have read in this article, it is also very interesting, that nowadays, during one day, during 24 hours, gets a human person so much impression what they got in the 19th century during one year, and in the 16th century during their whole life. So it's extremely, it's it's it's not increasing normally, it's it's exponentially what's happening right now. Or for example, another nowadays an average, uh an average uh human gets 140 emails per day. Who will read 140 emails? Nobody. So therefore, it's it's it's very important to grab the attention of your ideal customers, of your potential buyers. And you can only do it if you are not boring because we know it also that uh the purchase decisions will be made in 99% on emotional level. Later on, we can explain it why did we buy it, but it's not rational reasons, maybe in one percent of the cases. And if you would like to make uh effects on the emotions of your custom of your potential customers, of your ideal clients, you have to stand out from this terrible noise. And you can do it only in one way if you are not boring. And therefore, I think it's one of the most important factors which you should definitely avoid in your marketing strategy, that for example, uh you show always the same general messages on your website or on your e-commerce store to your clients. It's actually a very good example with the pop-ups, because I am always very honest, I hate the classical pop-ups. And people are asking me, Jesus Christ, how can you say something like this? Optimum is also a pop-up tool. And I say always, just a moment. Pop-up is just a tool. It's not good and not bad. It's depending on who is using it and how is he using it? Because you can make the adjustments or all the campaign setups for a pop-up, that it's really annoying. I'm pretty sure you have seen also some examples about it, that every five seconds just pops up with the same message. Terrible. It's of course increases the high bounce rate on the pages. But we have also tons of case studies about it when it definitely helps to the visitors by navigating them on the site, find the right products with uh product recommendations, even increase the user experience, and based on that, increase the conversion rates because higher relevance equals always higher conversion rates.

SPEAKER_01 11:12

Nice, nice. Thank you for that. So you work as an international partner manager now at Optimonc, and I was gonna ask you when you have a meeting, maybe with a prospective client or a prospective man partner, what does a great partner look like outside of the logos and the branding and the follower count on their social media channels and the number of customers they have and the number of conversions they make? What do you see in a potential partner that says this is going to be a very good partner?

SPEAKER_00 11:50

Very good question. So you mean under very good partner, not a client who is using Optimong, but rather, for example, an agency who is implementing Optimonk. Is it correct? Or you mean rather agencies? No, the client.

SPEAKER_01 12:03

Agencies, agencies.

SPEAKER_00 12:04

Agencies. Okay, sorry, agencies. Okay. So the really ideal agencies, partners are for us, who are definitely doing conversion rate optimization as a service, because for them could be our tool, absolutely a leverage, as I have mentioned before, because I know it also from my own experience that a lot of agencies are not dealing with conversion rate optimization because it's really time and energy consuming. It's actually, to my opinion, one of the most difficult areas of digital marketing at all. And maybe that's the reason, or I'm pretty sure that's the reason for that, that not all of the agencies are doing uh CRO. And of course, who are already doing it, and they know that it could be sometimes very time and energy consuming, as I have mentioned before, for them could be our tool definitely uh leverage to save for them time and make their whole workflows much quicker and much easier. On the other part, uh we can also help to agencies and partners who are not dealing with CRO, but for example, who are doing PPC. It's a very classical way, running Google Ads and Meta Ads for the clients. And what they not always know, but uh it's pretty true to my experience, that you can set up the best campaigns of the world, really with the best um um conditions and targetings and everything and bidding system. But if the visitors are not converting on the store, on the site as itself, the results, we are measuring results by PPC campaigns in Ruas, will be, of course, not so magnificent. So, even for them, it's very important that the visitors who are degenerating with the help of their ads are at the end definitely doing something, at least subscribing to the newsletters, but optimally also, of course, purchasing on the site. And for example, with the help of our tool, we have also some case studies about it. We are now also able to personalize the landing pages based on the traffic source, based on the visitor's behavior. And of course, it helps them to have better results with their campaigns, with their PPC ads. We have also a case study about it where we were able to double the ROAS by the PPC campaigns. Or another example, there are also some agencies out there who are doing only retention marketing, so email and SMS marketing, which could be a very quite successful channel, I think, if you are doing it professionally. And for them, of course, it's the most important factor, the number one key, the sign-up rate on the site, how many uh subscribers they can gather from the visitors. And for them, for example, what we can offer, we have now AI-based, hyper-personalized pop-ups, which means, as I have mentioned before, we're not we don't show them anymore the same message with static, irrelevant pop-ups. But for example, if we know their search intent, for example, what kind of product are they looking for, based on the search intent, can we show actually every visitor a different message with a different headline, even with a different creatives with the help of AI. And we are also running a ton of A-B testing, of course, in order to make data-driven decisions. And there are also built-in A-B testing tools in Optimong. And based on our measurements, based on our A B tests, for example, in one case, 50% of the visitors have seen this old classical way, the generic static pop-ups. 50% are AI-based, hyper-personalized pop-ups. And I think it won't be a big surprise, but we have measured 300% uplift in the sign-up rate. And it makes a huge difference, of course, how many uh subscribers you gather from your existing traffic. And in that case, for example, we can deliver extra value to these uh retention and email marketing agencies.

SPEAKER_01 16:39

Nice, nice. Thank you for that. And something else I noticed when I was doing some um research um about you and your organization is you've talked about ecosystems beating direct sales. So, why is the future of SaaS growth partnerships not just outbound?

SPEAKER_00 17:03

Uh also a very good question. So, actually, regarding this, what I can say is um one of my favorite quotes is from Jeffrey Gitterme. He is the master of sales, as we know, and he said once that the number one reason why people are not buying from you is that they don't trust you. And I think that uh trust is nowadays more important than ever before, because in the digital world, like for example, in let's take e-commerce stores. We are talking about e-commerce stores. The visitors don't have the possibility usually to talk to the sellers, to the owners of the store. In the physical store, you go inside, you can talk to somebody, you can ask some questions. I mean, okay, you can do it also online with a chatbot, but not popularly. Point number two, you cannot touch the products. You can just see it on your screen. So there are a lot of lot of uh trust factors which could actually avoid that the visitors are purchasing. I mean, it's of course not uh accidentally that the average e-commerce conversion rate is between two and three percent, which means that from 100 visitors, usually 97, so the biggest part of them, leave your site without purchasing. It's exactly from these reasons. And therefore, in order to establish the trust that people trust you, you have to build up your brand and your reputation. And you can't do it just through sales and outbound and hey, come on, here is my stuff, would you like to buy it? These times are over, I think, because nowadays, I say it always also to our clients don't forget, you cannot hide yourself anymore in the digital world. If your products have not a good quality, if your company has not a good reputation, it takes about two minutes. And nowadays, with the help of AI, not even two minutes, ten seconds to uh to get all the information what you need about a company or about a product. So therefore, you have to work very um, I would say, focused on it, that you have a good reputation, that you have a good brand, and exactly from this reason that you position yourself not just like a seller, but also an expert in your area, and therefore, for example, to help to build up an ecosystem. It's also, I think, from Jeffrey Gittomy, I I can't uh citate it exactly, but he said also that yeah, I know people hate it to be sold, but they love to buy. So you have to change, you have to change the mind in this direction.

SPEAKER_01 20:19

Nice, nice, nice. So um something else that comes to my mind whenever I'm discussing marketing, and now I have an expert I can talk about marketing with is what is the best course of action when starting a partnership? Is it revenue sharing, is it co-marketing, or is it referrals?

SPEAKER_00 20:42

I would say it depends on. So we have also uh, for example, two uh types of partnership possibilities in our partnership programs. One part is the, I would say, classical affiliate program, which means that our partner is only referring to us clients, but he himself doesn't want to build up campaigns, make any adjustments, he doesn't want to work actually with our tool, he just refers to us clients, and he gets, of course, uh affiliate commission based on revenue share, as you have mentioned. I think it's a very correct way. And there is the other part, which, to my personal opinion, is even more exciting. If we start to work really closely together, it means our agency program, which means that they are not only just referring to us clients, but also we work together on the results of their clients. Because this is, I think, the biggest value that we can deliver to our partners, to our agencies, because I say always I mean, we pay 20%. Lifelong commission, which is quite good, I think, nowadays. But let's be honest, this is not the money which will make you rich. But the real value that we can deliver to you as an agency, that with the help of our expertise, with the help of our tool, you can deliver better results to your clients. And for example, if you are able to increase, let's say, just with 10% the conversion rate of your client, and if there is a bigger e-commerce store, I mean 10%, could be sometimes mean$10,000,$20,000 per month or even more. It depends on the size, of course. This is a great value. And then your client will be so uh grateful that they remain your client for the next three or four years, and this is the real value what you can gain from our partnership. And of course, what you have also mentioned, I also enjoy it and I also love it, if we have also the possibilities to make some co-marketing, like common uh online webinars, um, or doing uh some uh podcast uh yes, podcast episodes, or writing blog posts for each other. So it means that we try to educate together our clients because it's also very important, as we have mentioned before, not just selling, selling, selling, but also giving value, helping them, and educate them.

SPEAKER_01 23:36

Nice. So in 2026, everyone is talking about AI, and in the marketing industry, there is now, as you mentioned, AI personalization. So, what is a practical definition of AI personalization for an e-commerce store?

SPEAKER_00 23:55

Okay, so there are actually a lot of possibilities regarding this, and I think definitely one of the most important directions of e-commerce or digital marketing, I mean, about segmentation, we are talking now for several years. About personalization, also, but uh let's be honest, uh, a lot of people are just talking about it, but not doing it, to my experience. But I think we should now definitely reach the next level, the hyperpersonalization, accordingly to the higher customer expectations, which means that we are not just talking um different segments of visitors now, but absolutely personalized based on the visitors' um preferences. And we can do it actually mostly with the help of AI. Therefore, I say that AI has opened for us new doors and new possibilities, because AI can do it now for us much quicker and much more efficient than we could have imagined it ever before. Just one example. We have now this really new tool. We have just launched it about three months ago, the product page optimization tool, which is actually an embedded content. It looks totally native, just a part of the product page. So actually, the visitors don't even recognize that they are looking at an optimum campaign. They think it's just a part of the product page. But as we know, most of the e-commerce stores are running now PMAX campaigns, which means that most of the visitors are landing directly on the product page. They don't even see the category pages or the main page. So I think to optimize the product pages is now more important than ever before to optimize it as deeply as possible. And with the help of this embedded content, the inside of this embedded content can we change dynamically and automatically with the help of AI. So our AI is connected with the product feed of the e-commerce store. It pulls out all the data from the product feed, and with the help of AI, we can regenerate the product pictures or the product descriptions, like doing AI-based uh headlines or benefit lists just to summarize the very long and sometimes very boring product descriptions. Or, for example, a lot of e-commerce stores have, let's be honest, very boring. Again, back to our topic, boring product pictures, you know, just a white background, or a transparent PNG, which is maybe good for Google, but not good for the human visitors. But with the help of AI, we can do them alive, the product pictures. Just just uh show it to the visitors how to use it in the everyday life, or for example, by rings, by jewelry, or by clothes. Just show them how it looks like when you wear it. You can all do it now with the help of AI. So you we can make the products much more alive, much more attractive, much more compelling. And these have and it has definitely a positive impact on, for example, the add-to-cart rate. Or, of course, at the end of the day, the e-commerce conversion rate. We have already the first case study about it. It was a US-based uh e-commerce store with uh nutrition um supplement supplements, and there we have achieved 48% uplifting revenue thanks to this product page optimization. And I mean, back to your question. To optimize one product page, everybody can do it. But if there is an e-commerce store with 10,000 product pages, who would do it? And now with the help of AI, we can personalize it in 20 minutes, 10,000 product pages. And that's a big game changer, I think.

SPEAKER_01 28:05

Nice. So um, another concept I wanted to talk to you about is predicting the exit. So, how is it possible for AI to know when someone is about to leave a website before they even move their mouse to close that page?

SPEAKER_00 28:25

The biggest advantage of AI is, to my opinion, or one of the biggest advantages, that it can collect, analyze a huge amount of data in a very, very short time and draw conclusions about it. And based on the tons of data, the AI can start can start to find algorithms and behavioral patterns. Because we know that we humans are sometimes um working or or or moving or behaving based on our patterns, inside patterns. And AI can actually um analyze the visitor's behavior, and if they recognize a special kind of patterns, they can then predict what will happen as an extra. So this is exactly the reason why I always say to our clients or even to our partner agencies that it doesn't make any sense to switch on our AI features if your store or if your website has, let's say, less than at least 15,000 unique visitors per month. Why? Because AI is working from data. If there is not enough data there, also the output will be not so magnificent. So, of course, at the end of the day, you won't be so satisfied. So, actually, if you have not enough traffic, you don't have a CRO problem, you have a traffic problem. So, first of all, focus on to generate as much traffic as possible. And then as a next step, you can start with CRO, and for example, you can start to switch on AI and start to analyze the data and draw conclusions from it. But for that, you need a special amount of data at least.

SPEAKER_01 30:34

And I think that answered my next question regarding where AI comes in for CRO. And you mentioned data is basically the bread and butter. There is no functionality AI can have if there is no data to train on. Definitely. Right, right. In that case, what decisions should never be automated in that CRO workflow? And of course, humans would still need to be involved in the CRO workflow from A to Z, but what would you never automate even as you are putting AI into that process?

SPEAKER_00 31:17

Actually, my answer to this question is only what we have right now at the moment, because we can't see what will be the capabilities of AI, for example, in five years. But at the moment, what I can see, where AI is sometimes limited regarding capacities of uh CRO workflows, that everything is based on data, as I have explained before, and draw conclusions, it's uh working great. But uh if you would like to uh start with hypothesis, what could work and to set up your first A-B testing, it's much better if it's based on human experience. That okay, to my experience by other e-commerce stores, this and this and this has worked well. Uh-huh. So let's make a hypothesis and based on that, let's start an A-B testing with this one. Because this experience is at the moment not possible to replace it with AI. Because sometimes in these cases, we run in still into hallucinations, but we also see that AI is still developing. I mean, just take a look at the pictures, what they can generate nowadays. And I remember two years ago we had the people with six fingers and something like this. So it's also improving enormously. So it can be that in five years, if you're gonna ask me the same question, I will answer something different to you. But at the moment, this is the part where I see that it's still very important that there is a human CRO expert or marketing expert there to make the first assumptions, to make the first changes on the workflows or wherever in the system.

SPEAKER_01 33:23

So in stores, physical stores, um, of course, everyone tries to optimize their conversion rates, but then we see every now and then a store is launching an ad campaign or a brand marketing campaign, and it's just not working. So, what is one of the biggest conversion rate killers that you see across physical stores right now? Across physical stores? Or e-commerce stores?

SPEAKER_00 33:51

Or e-commerce stores. Let's take rather please the e-commerce stores. There I have more experience.

unknown 33:56

Right.

SPEAKER_00 33:57

I have more experience. Okay. The first one, the biggest, I think, one of the biggest uh uh CRO killers is that the e-commerce store owners don't know their own data. Um I always say that one thing is definitely doesn't count in digital marketing, and this is the personal opinion. Not mine, not yours. It just doesn't count. The only thing which uh is important to digital marketing is data in order to make data-driven decisions. But in order to get data, you have to measure everything, you have to set up your measurement system because what you don't measure, you can't improve. And this is the first part where I think that uh a lot of e-commerce for owners make their first failure that they don't even measure everything correctly. I really I have also a lot of uh conversations, meetings with e-commerce for owners, and I'm really surprised sometimes that they can't even answer some of my basic questions. Like, for example, and which of your traffic channels is the highest uh e-commerce conversion rate? I mean, they know their their, for example, the general e-commerce conversion rate in their store, but they never go further and, for example, start to analyze it much deeper, for example, on different traffic sources. And I could make a whole list of these examples, but I think this is the first first most important part. Just know measure everything, know your numbers, and make data-driven decisions. And secondly, it's also, I think, a CRO killer that um it's also actually and and some point of view, also uh um in in relation with this one, but I would say it's it's it's a next topic, that they don't even try to think with the mind of their visitors. So, for example, what I think is still very important areas of conversion rate optimization is qualitative and quantitative analysis, which means uh quantitative analysis, so data, what I have mentioned before, know your data and and measure everything, but also qualitative analysis, which means which means, for example, just do some uh feedback gathering on your e-commerce store. Just ask your customers. And nowadays, you don't even need to ask them because we have a lot of tools which makes it possible to watch your visitors what they are doing actually in your store to generate heat maps, or even better, just make session recordings and watch it. So before I had my digital marketing agency, it was one of our services, and I have always watched, I don't know, more hundreds such recording sessions, and it's very interesting that sometimes not even us as the agency and not even the e-commerce store owners themselves uh could explain why the visitors behaved like this. But it was very exciting to us to have uh that we have discovered completely new things that, for example, for us was very logical. Yeah, this button should work and everybody should push on it. Nobody pushed on the button. So, yeah, it could be sometimes very uh surprising that actually visitors are definitely not behaving like you expected. So it's I think also very important, at least to start to think with their mind, and in order to do that, just get to know them better with these methods, with these tools.

SPEAKER_01 38:09

So um, let's talk about AOV, um, average order value. So, what is one way that you can increase average order value without discounting? Do you do you go by uh applying um bundles or thresholds or even social proof? What works best for high price versus low price um items?

SPEAKER_00 38:34

There are a lot of possibilities here. So it's very good that you have mentioned this topic. If you are only trying to get purchases with discounts, you are lost. You are definitely lost because there will be always another competitor who will give a bigger discount. And then at the end of the day, your profit marge will be so low that it won't make any sense for you to uh you cannot make financial uh really successful your business, your e-commerce story, it just doesn't work anymore. So it's it's it definitely works in some cases, like seasonal offers, Black Friday, okay, it's it's cool, it's it's working. But if you do it in uh in every season in every week, it won't work on the long term. So therefore, you have to build up, for example, your US phase, unique sales propositions. Why are you better than your competitors? Why is it worth to buy from you and not from somebody else? Social proof is also very important. Uh, as we know, uh, Amazon was the first e-commerce store in the history who have launched the the social proof, the possibility that you can rate the purchase products. And as we can see, Amazon is really successful, I think, as an e-commerce store. And I have also actually, uh, back to this topic, uh, watched sometimes session recordings. It was very interesting on product pages, where the visitor has landed. Firstly, they scrolled down to the social proofs, just read them, and then scrolled back upwards to read the product descriptions and anything else. So important could it be. And back to your question, in order to increase the average order value, is of course the best uh way to do it right now when the visitor is still on the site, and in the best case, when they are already in purchasing mode. The best example for it is, of course, I don't know if I'm allowed to say it, but you know, by McDonald's the super size. Because at the moment when you have your card there, this is the best moment, it's psychology, of course, that you are ready to pay more. And that's the reason that they are asking you exactly in that moment, if you would like to get it in a bigger size. But you can do it also online by an e-commerce store, for example, by Optimal. You can set it up that if somebody uh adds a special product to the cart, you can show them as a cross-sell, upsell campaign, a relevant product, or even what you have also mentioned, to offer them it in a bundle with two other products together. And this is the best moment because they are already to buy, they are ready to purchase, because they have added to the car to the product. And in that moment, if you uh start to talk to them and you offer them a special uh uh uh two products, if you buy two products together, you can get it for lower amounts or such kinds of uh discounts, it works very well. So cross-sell and upsell campaigns, definitely. Social proof is also important. And uh regarding feedback, for example, what we have also sometimes uh set it up on product pages for visitors who have spent at least two or three minutes but left without adding the product to the card, it's a very good method that when they're trying to leave the site, to ask them in that moment to gather some feedback. What was the reason for that? That you didn't buy from us. And for example, with this method, you can also gather very useful information.

SPEAKER_01 42:38

So um, to kind of start wrapping up here, I want to be mindful of your time. Um, if listeners only track three metrics conversion rates, average order value, or revenue per session, how should they treat these numbers in an efficient way so that they can improve um whatever they want to improve their margins, their bottom lines, and so on?

SPEAKER_00 43:06

So, first of all, they should measure it, as we have mentioned before. And to be honest, I'm not sure that uh everybody measures all these three KPIs because e-commerce conversion rate, okay, usually will be measured. Average order value in some cases, but revenue per session, I'm I'm not really sure. So which is very important that you uh take a look at these numbers, not just uh one time per year, because it won't say anything to you. It's very important that you see the trends, that you look at the numbers, for example, also as year over year uh comparisons that uh you take in. Into account the seasons, because I mean, of course, to make big revenue in before Christmas, it's not a quite big thing. But do the same again in January. It's much, much harder, of course. I think the best way is if you do it on your own way, it doesn't matter which tool do you use. Nowadays are tons of softwares for that, tons of tools. But the most important thing is that you really do it, that you document it. It can be also just a Google spreadsheet where you, for example, document these three numbers every week. Just the three numbers every week, but you do it consistently every week for one year. And then you can start to read the data and draw conclusions from that. That, for example, okay, if I do this, what happens with the numbers? If I launch this new Google Ads campaigns, what happens with the numbers? If I change this pop-up on my site, what happens to this number? But because in that case, you start to see the connections. You can connect the dots. And after a half year or even after a whole year, you're gonna understand better how is actually your e-commerce working. And this is this is very important that you are not just lying on assumptions, because actually, I think there are two main directions possible in digital marketing, and actually, it could be also actually as you have said it uh to to wrap it up the whole conversation. One way is that you do some things very promptly, if you have an idea, and I call it hope marketing, because you know you don't know exactly what happens, but you hope it will bring you results. The other way, which I definitely suggest to you, is the strategically marketing, which means that you have a plan, you set up goals, you have keys, you measure everything, you make data-driven decisions, and you think in PDCA cycles, plan, do, check, act, in order to continue improving your e-commerce store. Because don't forget, an e-commerce store is never ready. And it and and it's changing very fast, everything now in the digital era. So it's very important that you still keep improving your knowledge and your store as well. Wow.

SPEAKER_01 46:43

Wow, this has been a very insightful conversation. I learned so much from you. And of course, I'm going to keep talking about marketing. And one thing I learned as a cybersecurity professional is whatever it is you do, whether you're a developer or you work in cybersecurity or you work as a professor in a school, if you cannot market yourself, no one is going to appreciate the value you bring into any room you walk into. And during our conversation today, I've started piecing all these analogies together because what applies to e-commerce applies to everything else in life. I have to be able to measure how I show up to talk to someone so that I can improve how I show up when I talk to someone. So, again, this has been a very fascinating conversation. Of course, like I said before we started recording, the goal is for you to come back on the podcast. So, hope I've been able to convince you.

SPEAKER_00 47:47

Thank you very much, Biddy. It was a pleasure for myself as well.

SPEAKER_01 47:50

Thank you, sir. Thank you. Thank you very much.

SPEAKER_00 47:53

Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 47:56

If you like this episode, please share it with a relative, a friend, a co-worker, a neighbor, an acquaintance, and so on. And then please leave a rating andor a review on your favorite podcast app. My name is Videmio Logunde, and this is the Big Picture Podcast. Thank you for listening.