482. Jonathan Hernandez

Check out host Bidemi Ologunde's new show: The Work Ethic Podcast, available on Spotify and Apple Podcasts.

Email: bidemiologunde@gmail.com

In this episode, host Bidemi Ologunde sits down with Jonathan Hernandez to explore the human side of cybersecurity, risk, and digital ethics. How do organizations move beyond checkbox compliance to real security? What does it mean to practice digital stewardship in a world shaped by constant technological change? Jonathan reflects on his journey through government, insurance, nonprofit leadership, and ministry, sharing practical lessons on vulnerability management, leadership, trust, and responsibility in the digital age.

Sponsors and partners:

Promeed: 100% mulberry silk pillowcases and bedding that feel incredibly soft, stay breathable, and are naturally gentle on hair and skin.

SurviveX: professional-grade FSA/HSA eligible first aid and preparedness kits designed in Virginia, USA and produced in an FDA-registered facility.

Alison US CA: Alison is the world's largest free online learning and skills-training platform, helping more than 50 million learners in 193+ countries build career-ready skills with 6,000+ free courses, certificates, and diplomas.

eSign (iOS only): eSign is a clean, privacy-first document-signing app that works entirely on your device, letting you sign PDFs, DOCX files, images, and scans, edit and assemble pages, and export crisp 300 DPI PDFs in seconds, without accounts, cloud uploads, or compromising sensitive documents.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:15

So thanks for joining me once again on another episode of the Bait Picture Podcast. I have a special guest from Louisville, Kentucky. Over to you.

SPEAKER_02 0:26

Yeah, uh, yeah. Hello everyone. My name is uh Jonathan Hernandez. I am a Filipino. I am uh currently uh an information security analyst for uh a large research hospital based in Columbus, Ohio. And also I'm pursuing my Masters of Divinity at the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary. Nice, nice. So thank you for having me in your program.

SPEAKER_00 0:49

Thank you so much for coming on. And I've had quite a few guests, and every guest is unique and different in their own way. And a few things you mentioned jumped out at me. Um you're studying for your master's, you're from the Philippines, your master's is in divinity, right? Yes, yes. And for people meeting you for the first time, what do people when they see you for the first time, what do they misunderstand? Let's just put it that way.

SPEAKER_02 1:23

Yeah, yeah, that's a good question right there. So uh so whenever people know about me, because I'm uh I'm doing cybersecurity and I'm doing uh doing minister, right? Like I'm being a minister, a Christian minister in our church, and some of the questions that that they ask is like, why? Like, why? Like uh you have a good career already, you're already in a in a good field, and then why did you take the minister path? I think that's one of the biggest questions that I have and uh that they ask me, and uh I always tell them that it's about the purpose of life, it's a purpose of life, right? So I am uh I'm proudly to uh proudly to say to people that uh though I am you know I'm pursuing a master's divinity, and I see my uh I see myself as a Christian minister in the future while utilizing my cybersecurity career, like that is the passion that I love. That you know, like I can reach out to to both worlds, if you will, from technology and theology worlds where I could guide people, I could guide the conversation between the issues of what it means to be a human in an AI world, right? So I have those two perspectives, and having that two lenses, I'm able to provide and serve people well. And I think that is the joy of my heart. That uh whenever some people are telling me, like, hey, uh, I don't understand why you took the the minister uh path. If you can go to Asia, you could go to Singapore or Japan to pursue a higher, you know, uh a higher career, or why not did you pursue a higher career path or go to Silicon Valley, right? And I always tell them it's uh I'm not walking uh out of an opportunity, but the reason why I where I am right now is because of the purpose that I have in my life, that my goal is not just about money, if you will, right? I think there's nothing wrong with that, right? But for me, it's about that's my purpose, is to serve people in both worlds.

SPEAKER_00 3:43

So nice. Wow, wow. Thank you for putting it that way. And it's something I definitely can relate to. And in my own case, I came to the US from Nigeria for grad school. And I came for grad school, electrical engineering, I was able to get my master's PhD and so on. And eventually I realized, well, I kind of don't like teaching, at least not in a structured environment, like me in front of a class and the students listening to me for one hour or 45 minutes, and then I give them homework, and then I grade their homework. And along the line, I was able to keep an open mind while in grad school, saying, if I'm not gonna go into teaching, but I still like to teach, but in a less structured way, what career path is gonna work for me? And then I got into some conferences and I met some mentors, and then they were like, okay, try information security, cybersecurity. And then I entered cybersecurity and I realized, well, cybersecurity is kind of big. It's kind of like medicine. You want to be a doctor? Well, the question is what kind of doctor?

SPEAKER_02 4:55

Right, specialization if you're right.

SPEAKER_00 4:57

So I was like, oh, so in this cybersecurity, I have to choose an area. Okay, well, I like doing research, I like doing investigations. Maybe I can do something that has research and investigations because there is cybersecurity that has nothing to do with research and investigations. So along the line, long story short, where I started and where I am now, it's kind of slightly different. Not totally different. And in your case, your driving force is basically to be able to add value to people, to be able to serve people. So uh along the line, uh, I want to say while reading about you, the keyword digital stewardship kept coming up. Yes. What does digital stewardship mean to you? Um, as much as you can break it down for us.

SPEAKER_01 5:49

Yeah, yeah. I think that's a good that's a good word to to use of this particular situation.

SPEAKER_02 5:58

Uh you know, I could uh tackle this one in different ways, but I think I will define this one in a way where I am uh using the skills that I have in this particular digital age for the glory of God in a different way. In whether it's using technology to expand the purpose of what the Lord has given me, you know, using the technologies, using the skills that I have in technologies. I think that is that is uh that is one way that I could put that one. And the way that I apply that concept in my life is I use my skills and technology, cybersecurity, and uh in order to help people in in my life, whether it's a church, whether it's a community uh community event, in order to use the skills that I have, not for myself, but to to demonstrate the love of God to other people and to serve them well. Because I think I see myself that the skills that I have right now, everything that I have that the Lord has blessed me, whether it's uh communication skills, whether it's a skill in computer or you know, like uh whether it's uh advising other people, it's uh I see that one uh as a responsibility that the Lord has given me, not just for myself, but how can I help other people because there's a lot of need in this world, right? And uh, you know, there's a story where uh in the Bible where someone has given the Lord, you know, the master has given them talents, or and there's a three three people has given talents, and two of them invest that talent in a good way and it multiplies. Well, the other one just kept that, and that talent didn't grow, right? And uh based on my experience, right? I told myself, like the Lord has blessed me with a lot of things, and that talents, that skills, that gift thing, it's not just for for me. You know, like uh the the mindset that I have is how can I use this this thing? How can I use my talents? How can I steward everything that I have, my time, my effort, uh to make the world better, right? Whether whether it's in comp whether it's in digital, whether digitally through virtual events, through helping other people, or around the people around me. So nice, nice, nice.

SPEAKER_00 8:38

So um your career has seen you in different industries, different sectors. And I believe you've worked in insurance and then the government sector.

SPEAKER_02 8:51

Yes, yes. I uh I work for uh a state government, I work for a Fortune 100 company, uh, a big insurance company, and currently I am uh working for uh a leading research hospital. Nice, nice pediatric hospital.

SPEAKER_00 9:07

So, in those different sectors, I was gonna ask, what are the skills that you've learned? Because even me right now, as young as I am, I believe at around the same age, but anyway, yes, um over time I've picked up one or two things because different companies have their own way of doing different things, doing the same thing, and even within the same industry, telecoms, for example, one company in telecoms does things differently than another company in telecoms. So, in your case, what skills have you learned that are in line with how you see yourself as a service-oriented person?

SPEAKER_02 9:52

Yeah, yeah. So I think that's a good question. Thank you for asking that. Uh, is it okay for me to share my story so that I think it's best to you know, for for for the listeners to to hear my story on and why I say those things. So before uh before I move before I worked for the state government uh at that time, uh I, you know, like I said, I am a Filipino. I moved from the Philippines when I was uh from the Philippines to the to the United States when I was 19. I was in the middle of my college there, and my my dad told me, like, hey, you know, like it's best to gain some experience first, you know, to get some experience. And at that time, I know I have a technical experience, but I don't know uh the culture yet. You know, like though I have some some idea what you know uh what America would be for my life, but I'm still uh adjusting, if you will, right? So I realized that the best way to be familiarized with with the culture, with with the people is to work in a customer service uh industry. I work for the in a restaurant. So uh I developed my customer service skills because I realized that uh technical skills and social skills should be complementing each other because those are so important. Because even though that you know the technical skills, but if you're not able to convey the information, right, if you cannot relate to people, I'm going to have a hard time. And that is proven useful when I work for the state government, because uh I was a software QA intern and a security security engineering intern for the state government at that time. And uh most of the time, uh, I'm dealing with my coworkers. You know, I'm relaying information, I'm helping them, I'm trying to understand what they're uh what they're doing and you know, getting some experience, right? Uh one of the skills that I really uh learn from from that uh as a as an intern is that it's always important to ask questions. You know, like uh do not assume that you know a lot, even though that you have something, you know, even though yet you know something. Because uh I realize that sometimes my assumption or when I presume something, it is far different from the situation, right? It's always good to ask some questions and ask good questions, you know, because the more clear, the more uh the clearer the question that you have, the clearer the answer that they will give, and that will help you solve the question or answer the question that you have. And also, it's not a weakness to ask questions. I realize that uh the more you ask questions is it signals that you're really you're really curious or you want to learn about stuff, right? And I always ask a lot of questions because I want to know what what I'm doing, because because they give me a responsibility that and I need to own that one, right? The second one is ownership, right? Uh I learned that one uh still in the state government because they give me responsibility as an intern, and I need to own that one, and I need to take accountability on that. And having accountability or having to take ownership helps me a lot in my career because uh it it uh it enables me to become a better leader. Because now I'm uh I'm not just watching people, I am owning something, and that enables me to uh you know to to showcase my skills. And after a few years, uh after one year, I uh apply for uh a full-time position, uh for an apprenticeship work position in a in a um in an insurance, medium-sized insurance company uh in Columbus, Ohio, state auto insurance. And I really love that workplace because I was surrounded with a lot of mentors. And one thing that I've learned is that you need to surround yourself with wise mentors because you will learn and you will grow. You know, I want to shout out uh to Angela Lickner and uh Mike O'Neill. Uh those people were so uh were so helpful in my life because they given me a lot of guidance when I was starting in my career. They provided a lot of advice and also, you know, like uh curiosity is a big thing. You know, like uh I'm so curious when I was starting. I want to learn a lot because I realize I'm not just this is not just about work, it's about passion, right? I'm so passionate with my field because I love what I'm doing. There are moments that I'm there are moments that it was scary because I don't know, but I realized that but I realize that that's the part of the game, it's part of the journey, right? That there are moments that you don't know, but that's the reason why you need to surround yourself with wise people because they will provide guidance and I appreciate that. And also, uh I think having more than one skill is really good, especially in early in the career. So like uh instead of specializing right away, I make sure that I know a lot of technologies. That's the reason why I have exposure in governance, first, and compliance. Uh, I did some application uh security testing, security awareness. I got some uh experience in uh security engineering because I want to make sure that I'm not just thinking about one thing, I want to understand uh many things because the goal that I have is I want to talk to the leaders someday. Because I see myself as a leader someday. And I want to make sure that when I have a goal, I want to make sure that I have a clear path on that one. And uh, when state auto insurance was acquired by Liberty Mutual uh Insurance, I worked for them for quite some time, and uh working for them is an amazing experience as well. Uh, they have an awesome leadership, and uh I want to thank uh all of my team members there because they give me a global experience, what it what it looks like to work for a global company. So now I not just before I was just focusing on technologies, I now I'm focusing on the business. Like I'm understanding how the business operates, and that enables me to uh to understand it's not just about technologies, it's like how the business operates and how to talk to people properly. And some of the best things that I've learned is understanding the perspective of the people that you're talking to. Because uh at that time we're serving other business units as well, and putting yourself on the position of the people that you're talking to enables you to emphasize and to see things from your perspective and how to take care of them properly. So I know it's a lot. No, no, no worries. I've learned a lot from my experience, and I'm so thankful for that.

SPEAKER_00 17:34

Yes, I feel like me and you have the same background and outlook on life because everything you're describing, I definitely see myself doing the same things, um, trying to learn as much as possible in whatever opportunity I get, because I don't know where the next opportunity is going to come from. I want to be able to add as much value to the people I talk to and the people I interact with, and that is not going to happen if I don't see their perspective. Right. All of this to say, well, different skills I learned and I apply to the next assignment and the next role I get, I won't be able to apply them if I'm not open-minded enough to learn the things I need to learn. Because there are so many things you can learn while employed somewhere that has nothing to do with your job description. And that will be the thing that will set you apart for your next role. But if you don't open your mind to learn those extracurricular things, you're just setting yourself up to become stuck.

SPEAKER_02 18:41

That's true. You become stagnant, right? Because you just become comfortable with you know with with the area that where you are. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:49

So you mentioned you've been exposed to governance, risk, and compliance, GRC. Um to kind of get your perspective on this one thing, where do you think organizations confuse compliance with security?

SPEAKER_02 19:06

Oh, okay. Uh I think uh there are not all, but there are many organizations that think once they check the box, that's it. You know, like uh they thought that security is just about checking the box. And I think based on my experience, it's no. No, like compliance and security sometimes are different because uh it requires different skills, different understanding, and uh they work together, right? So uh usually they overlap, there's some overlapping between those two, but uh but I want to emphasize that security is not just about checking the box. I've seen this one before. Uh, when people ask me about, hey, what do you think about this? We have this, we have that one, we have uh specific things that they're telling me. But the question that I have is have you configured that one properly? You know, uh an existent uh the existence of a specific tool doesn't guarantee security right away. Because you need to configure that one, you need to learn the assets that you have in order to make sure it is secure, right? Because even though that you have the best tools in your pocket, but if you don't know how to use that one, right, it's uh it's going to be a challenge for someone. So uh yeah, I think uh I'll I'll make it brief, but that's that's what I think about it. Nice, nice.

SPEAKER_00 20:45

And I feel like a lot of companies just want to do compliance as a check-the-box exercise so that they don't have to pay a fine to regulatory agency and then they say, Do you have this? Yes, we have it, check. Do you have this other tool? Yes, we have it. Do you how do you keep email security? Well, we have this tool that keeps email secure. Well, how do you actually use it? Who is in charge of your email security program and so on? So the the details of compliance get missed simply because most companies treat it as well. We're just checking the box, right? We have this tool. Yes, we have that tool, yes.

SPEAKER_02 21:25

So right. There are uh I think uh whenever we see the news, right? There's some uh there's some companies that were uh victims of you know hacking or data breach, right? Yeah. Uh you will see that some of the some of them will say, like, hey, we we comply with this particular regulation, we complain, we comply with the specific standards and those kinds of stuff. But why they still, you know, still a victim of uh a specific attack, right? And there's going to be a gap on that one, right? There's always a gap on that one. And like you said, like uh there's uh there Are times where companies, some companies, think that security is just about checking the box. And I think once uh if someone if they have the nutbreaker mindset of just checking the box, it's uh I think it's uh it's going to be a challenge in the future, right?

SPEAKER_00 22:18

So with the way I believe uh your mindset and the way you approach issues generally comes from uh your exposure and how you starting from your first job in the service industry. I want to ask what security frameworks have most influenced how you think in terms of maybe for example, if you're on a team and you want to learn as much as possible, but you have to start small. So that kind of framework, what major ones have over over the years, over all your experiences, the frameworks that you still keep up till now and you still use up till now?

SPEAKER_02 23:07

I see, I see. So I think over the years uh I am um uh I am uh exposed to different different uh technologies, different uh different framework. Uh over the years I work with NIST uh 853. I work uh I also work with PCI uh uh standards. But I think I one one framework or one standard I really love that I apply in my life and also even my personal life is the OWASP OTG, uh the OWASP framework. Because I love uh I love web application security testing. And uh you know this framework is more of an organizational uh framework that speaks about the cybersecurity posture of an organization, but the OWASP uh framework is more it's more specific to the web application aspect of things. And the reason why I love the OWASP framework personally is because of how I approach uh things in my life where uh the the uh the OWASP OTG uh gives you like the test cases, the explanation, and also uh there's a specific aspect of uh OWASP OTG's code regarding the business logic. So usually usually uh I um uh one of my favorite uh ways on how I test uh applications about the business logic of things. So I when I was still a software QA, there's uh there's a specific business requirements that uh that we follow based on the design of the application. And when I become a security tester, uh one of my goals is to test what if I don't follow the logic? What kinds of errors, what kinds of uh of uh what kinds of what kinds of uh issues can I find without following that one, right? And usually uh people assume that once I follow this, it's okay, but on my mindset, like what if I don't follow this? What will be the issues? And in my life, that gives me uh that provided me an additional uh security in my life by creating contingency plans in my life, right? So let's say, what if lot so let's say if I follow the business logic of things, and then what if things doesn't work the way I expect, what will happen to me, right? So I think applying that particular framework in my personal life helps me a lot, but if you're talking about uh the framework just in general uh at work, uh you know, like uh I love NIST uh 853. And then uh currently, right now I'm working for a uh for a health for a healthcare uh institution. Uh right now I'm being familiarized with uh uh high trust. I'm still learning new things. Uh you know, so yeah.

SPEAKER_00 26:30

So um you're also on a journey um as a Christian minister. How does that shape your leadership in tech?

SPEAKER_02 26:40

That is a good yeah, that's a good question right there. I think it gives me more grace, it gives me more uh love towards people because as uh working in tech and working as a Christian minister uh sometimes could be challenging, balancing those two fields, right? Sometimes because um there are there are things that they're not totally opposite, but it could be uh but it's sometimes very challenging to to balance. I would say that, right? So uh sometimes in the in the tech world we're more fast paced, right? Well, you know, well in the other the areas of uh of being to minister, uh ministering to people, it's like takes some time, right? So sometimes you need to make a decision right away, but there are moments that I need to to slow down, to really understand things and to you know to pray. So uh but it shapes my it shapes my leadership skills, it shapes the way I uh deal with people because uh I'm I'm I'm uh I'm using the opportunity to minister to them, not just not just on a transactional level, if you will. We're not just talking about business here, but I'm building relationships with people, right? Because I want to make sure that uh that I understand their mindsets. And I'm uh whenever I deal with people, uh I want to make sure that they know me, not just Jonathan as a coworker, but I want to know them like Jonathan as as a person, right? And uh it shapes me in how I show them my love for them. Like, like uh let if whenever someone is uh distressed, when someone is uh you know is having a having a bad day, you know, like I encourage them. Like, like, hey, is there anything that I could pray for you? Right? I know, you know, maybe this is something that you don't like, but let me extend to you. How can I pray for you, right? Like uh my I think my patience is uh really improved because I see like hey, you know, like uh like them, like uh we're we're making bad decisions in life, right? And instead of blaming, instead of being critical to people, I uh I show empathy, like yeah, it's okay. Let's uh let's uh instead of let's you know like uh instead of being critical right away, like the question that I have right now is like uh like uh what happened to this, right? Like uh and then instead of demonstrating some rude characters or behaviors, now I'm thinking now is like if I show bad behaviors like this, can is this God glorifying? Right? Because that serves an accountability as well for me, because it's uh it's it's not it's uh it's accountability for me, it's also I uh my responsibility is to show God's love to other people as well. Yes, and that includes through my words and through my actions. So I always ask myself, if I do this thing, is this going to glorify the Lord? Right? And the Lord uh you know commanded us in the scriptures to to love the Lord with all of our hearts, soul, and mind, and also love others as yourself. And I always ask myself, when I do these things, when I when I uh talk to other people, am I being kind to them? Not just because of a personal thing, but because I want them to learn that the behavior that I have, the words and the deeds that I'm doing, it's not for myself, but this is uh I want them to know through me that the Lord is good to their lives.

SPEAKER_00 30:39

Nice. Thank you for sharing that. So um, to kind of start wrapping up here, I want to be mindful of your time again. It's very late for both of us. Uh technologists right now are in a very difficult position. There is privacy, there is surveillance, AI is stealing everybody's data, there is misinformation. So, yes, in your perspective, what is the moral responsibility that technologists have right now?

SPEAKER_02 31:11

Yes, uh, I think one uh I have some few thoughts on this one. Um we need the moral capability or the moral culpability still lies on humans, not on technology. Technology should be used for the advancement of and flourishing of the people, right? And it is on our hands how on how to use that one. Because uh the way we use technology shows who we are, right? And that is that is the challenge that we have, right, in the cyber in information security. Like both both the cyber criminals and and the cybersecurity professionals are almost using the same tools in some ways, right? Right, they they have they know how the computer operates, they know how to use the tools, but it's always about the intention. How should we what's the intention of the heart, right? And I always tell the people that we should use technology in order to serve other people and not to harm them, right? So I always tell technologists that use that time that you have right now to learn technologies because and how to protect other people as well, because uh the cyber criminals are one step ahead, it's always ahead of us. And our duty is to ensure that we will protect the information that we have and also to spread awareness to other people as well. Let's use the influence that we have right now, not for ourselves, but to educate other people, whether it's through webinars, through uh community service, right? Uh, and that is something that shapes my life. Where uh whenever I have opportunities, I go to the libraries, like, hey, uh, is there anything that I could help the community to ensure that they know about cybersecurity? Let me uh let me uh let me share about uh uh cybersecurity foundations, security awareness foundations. And I do that one through the library, through the churches, because I I I feel as and I think as technologists, I have the responsibility to educate people for them to protect themselves. And how can people protect themselves is through knowledge, right? And that particular knowledge is uh is given or can be can be learned, right? And since I have uh since I I see myself that the Lord has given me everything that I have, the the gifting and the skills that I have, and that is the the motivating pack factor for me. That I have I have the skills that I have right now, I have the gifting. Let me share to other people because they will benefit from that one and it will it will it will do good for a community.

SPEAKER_00 34:16

Nice, nice. Thank you for sharing that. And fast forward three to five years, what what are some changes in cybersecurity that you are watching very closely?

SPEAKER_02 34:31

I I think uh it's uh you know we hear that we hear about quantum, right? Quantum computing is always gonna be the uh is going to be there. Uh I think the continuous uh development of artificial intelligence is going to be there, correct? With this particular uh development, uh there's going to be uh advanced cybersecurity attacks that can be observed by the people. Like right now, right? Like uh I think a few years ago, we cannot uh personally for me, I'm not expecting uh the the where is it the gravity of how scammers are using AI to scam other people, right? I just realized like, oh man, like look at this. Like how how many uh confusing videos can I see on social media, right? You can see that, right? Like I don't even know. I cannot un I cannot even determine which is right and wrong sometimes because of how people are using AI, but just imagine how uh if a normal person can use AI to make this confusing videos, right? How much more cyber criminals can use AI to deceive, to to you know to to destroy or to steal money from other people, right? And as as the time goes by, AI will continue to to to be advanced, and there's going to be more uh tools coming up.

SPEAKER_00 36:11

So nice, nice. And I actually What do you think about that? Yeah, I was gonna say I strongly believe and agree that AI is going to get more dangerous. And now there are some because of my line of work, I have to collect data. Well, I call it intelligence from different sources, and then use it to create some reports and make some decisions and so on. And in the process of collecting intelligence, I go to some websites to see what people are saying about different things in different countries, not just in the US, not just across the internet, because the internet is too big. If I want to know what's going on in the Middle East, well, you have to go where people in the Middle East talk about what's happening in the Middle East. That is not necessarily Twitter. So when people do certain things and then they're like, oh, well, I went to Twitter to get information. Well, mm-mm. People across the world use social media in different ways. So there are some platforms that are specific to certain countries. So now I'm going to these different platforms and I'm seeing the kind of things people are posting, not just text. When they're texting, they are also posting pictures. Pictures in form of memes, pictures in form of, well, someone went out somewhere and they took a picture of a park. Maybe I want to know what that park looks like on this certain date, so I go on this platform. Long story short, now I see some of these platforms and some of these pictures, and they have a picture or a screenshot of a Twitter post that someone said something. And I'm thinking, I don't think this is true. Because this person that they are making this post, that this person said this thing, I don't think they said it. So now I'm going to Twitter to look at that person's profile. Did they say this thing that I just saw on the screenshot on this other website? Come to think of it, they never really said that. So whoever made that post, maybe they used AI, maybe they used Photoshop. They were doing that to do some confusing, maybe some misinformation. That's real. I'm seeing that now way more compared to this time last year.

SPEAKER_01 38:38

That's real.

SPEAKER_00 38:39

Yeah, so it's getting to the point where we'd have to start asking, well, maybe Twitter should put something on a screenshot from Twitter that says this is an original Twitter screenshot. I'm sure there's technology that can do that.

SPEAKER_02 38:54

So right. I agree, I completely agree with you because uh sometimes people are sharing information or reels or videos in different social media accounts that they don't even know whether it's true or not. Right. And I think since people are not aware or don't have enough knowledge on those kind of stuff, uh they are not aware that they're sharing misinformation as well, right? And that is the reason why I think it's uh you know, like implement or doing user awareness, users, you know, like security awareness program is so helpful for for the people because we don't know whether unless you conduct thorough research, like what you're doing, right? Like you will not identify like whether it's true or not.

SPEAKER_00 39:46

Yeah, so this has been a really fun conversation. Thank you so much for coming on, even though it's really late, and hopefully we can have another conversation like this. Keep the conversation going. Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_02 40:00

Yeah, thank you so much. Thank you for inviting me to your program. I appreciate it.

SPEAKER_00 40:04

Talk to you soon. If you like this episode, please share it with a relative, a friend, a co-worker, a neighbor, an acquaintance, and so on. And then please leave a rating andor a review on your favorite podcast app. My name is PD Mio Logande, and this is the Big Picture Podcast. Thank you for listening.