Embracing Vulnerability - From Trauma to Deep Connection | Jayson Blair

 Join me and my friend Jayson Blair, former journalist and host of the Silver Linings Handbook podcast, as we dive into the tangled web of trauma and healing. Jayson shares his journey from childhood abuse to the emotional rollercoaster of crime reporting, revealing how vulnerability can transform connections.

We explore the universal nature of suffering and the power of grace and forgiveness through laughter and tears. Jayson's story is a testament to resilience, self-awareness, and the courage to face painful truths. Whether you're on your healing journey or supporting someone else's, this episode is packed with insights and inspiration.

Tune in for a dose of wisdom, love, and the joy of opening up to deeper connections. And if you enjoy the episode, please share it with someone!

How to contact:
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-silver-linings-handbook/id1665733166
https://open.spotify.com/show/4Fmk2Sz9rXGltwt9eQHbtz

Transcript

>> Tiffanie: Hello, friends, and welcome. Welcome back. This is True Crime Connections and I am Tiffanie, your host. Today I am talking with a very dear friend of mine. He is the podcast host of, the Silver Linings Handbook. He is a coach and a formal journalist who worked with the New York Times. Please help me welcome Jason Blair. Hello.

>> Jayson: Hello. Hello, friend. And thank you for having me on. I'm honored for the opportunity. I love the fact that as somebody who's a listener and a part of your community, that I get a chance to come on and I appreciate you coming on to talk your episode of my podcast earlier in the year. I just thought it was such a, for me, such a powerful message that we don't normally hear about the impact of the trauma or of trauma on both the victims and perpetrators and the interconnections and how we can love both. And I think that was, like, meaningful to a lot of my listeners. So thank you.

>> Tiffanie: No, absolutely. And I loved being on your podcast, so I'm glad people found value in it because, I mean, that's why we do this, right?

>> Jayson: Yeah, why most of us do it. I think the others are there to make money because it's, you know, a well known way to get rich, I hear. Yeah, we haven't figured it out. Right.

>> Tiffanie: Well, so they say.


Sometimes our traumas can interfere with our connections with other people

Well, today we're going to talk about how sometimes our traumas can interfere with our connections with other people, because I do believe they go hand in hand.

>> Jayson: Yeah. And it's interesting to think about. You know, you and I have talked about this idea that, you know, I've experienced and I think sort of stepping back, I've experienced trauma in life and I don't think there's anything terminally unique about experiencing a trauma. You know, when you are going through a trauma or you have, you can feel very, very, very, very lonely and unique in your situation. And I think one important thing to remember is that suffering is universal. It's the one thing every human has in common. Whether you're a Native American or you're black, or you're white, or you're a woman or your man. We have all suffered and many of us have suffered through traumas. And I think for me, one of the. My assistant likes to joke that other people see a dumpster fire and I see an opportunity to roast marshmallows. But I think one of the bright sides for me of trauma is that suffering has allowed me ultimately, after a very long road there, an opportunity to connect with people more deeply and love people more deeply. And so I think A message that I tend to have for people who are going through the rough parts of it or feel like it's never going to end or nothing good will ever come out of it, is that there can be a bright side and there can be good that comes out of it. You just, If you want to get there fast, be smarter than I am.

>> Tiffanie: Well, you had to learn at your own pace. And I mean, m. Sometimes we don't get the clues right away.

>> Jayson: I feel like that's what my mother used to say. All the time, Jason's working at his pace, also known as, when is he going to get it?

>> Tiffanie: It seems like you're on your way. So, I mean, it's a start. Better later than ever, right? Yeah.

>> Jayson: Yeah. yeah. And I. Part of what I think originally or what's happened in the last few years, for me, I guess I sort of have to take the story back to the beginning. I am unbelievably lucky as a human being. I have two wonderful, amazing parents, an amazing brother. I always tell people, I won the lottery. I won the lottery. In terms of family, they're both. They're all patient, which you need to be with me. They're all very loving. I seriously, I really think the milkman some days dropped me off because I'm not exactly like them. But, you know, they're all very patient. They're very loving. Both my parents were from large families, and they were the only ones in their families who made it out of the rural areas and made it to college. Plenty of people in their families did very well, but they had opportunities. Other people didn't. And my brother and I had opportunities because of that that other people didn't. So it's like, you know, a very idyllic life. And I think in looking back at that, I really appreciate. And I don't know how I have a hard time even fathoming where I would have been if I had been in a different environment. You know, part of me says, you'll never really know, but, you know, one of the things I want to start the story by saying is, like, how blessed I am and how lucky I feel I am. And I think that sometimes it comes from your family, sometimes it comes from your friends, sometimes it comes from your spouse. It can come from all avenues of your life. If you don't win the lottery in one area, you might win it in another. But, you know, I'm just grateful, I think, grateful for a lot of the people that I have in my life. But, we Were talking earlier about when I was a young kid, I was sexually molested by an older teenage cousin. And the interesting thing about it and is for me, and this has been a pattern throughout my entire life. I don't know, you could really run over me with a truck. And I'm very I'm so unlikely to retaliate. I'm like whatever. And I tell people it's not like a self worth thing. It's not that I don't deserve. It's like water off a duck's back. Right. Like you have a problem with me. Join the long list of people. But I tend to like, if I'm gonna retaliate, it's usually because someone has hurt someone I love. And like I can be a little hair triggery there. And I never said anything. And the way my parents tell my story is that this was going on for some time. I never said anything until I walked into the bathroom and saw her molesting my little brother, my two year old. And in my entire life from probably I. He's always my protectiveness of him. And I don't know if it comes from that or it's just because he was my baby brother, my protectiveness of him, you know, yeah, it's, it's been a strong force. But I told my parents in my little kid words where you don't even know that like something, what is happening, what's bad? And I told them and was talking to my dad and my mom actually about it a couple years ago and I was telling my mom, you guys handled this perfectly. My dad was listening to the conversation. He's like, that's interesting because I think we handled it terribly. We didn't act fast enough. We didn't do X, Y or Z. And it was so interesting to hear their lens and how they felt this sense of like failure as parents when I as a kid felt like the sense of perfection. And it says something about our lenses in these situations. And it also says something about why we should talk about this because I hope that was a comfort to them to hear that, hey, on the other side of this, like you know, it was, it was perfect. And my brother agreed. And in that I think going through that experience and I think for me and for a lot of people it's inevitably life changing. But I've always believed that a. The way that they handled it and maybe just part of who we are, you know, it, it didn't affect me and I don't know what to make of this next Part, which is really interesting, that came in that conversation with my parents.


I think it's important to think about giving people grace or forgiveness

I was like, guys, you remember when this cousin of mine, she had grown up, gotten older, had gotten into trouble, right? I was like, I was. I didn't particularly like her. I was kind of scared of her. But I was the one who said we should let her move in with us for a summer. When we had moved and I had invited them and begged them to do that, actually, like, that's how unaffected I felt by it. It was really weird. And they were like, yes, that was.

>> Tiffanie: Oh, my gosh.

>> Jayson: Yeah, it was. In retrospect, I'm like, this is insane. I mean, a couple years ago, I don't know, like, 10, 15 years ago, I ran into her in Washington, D.C. and I was like, how in the world do I not want to rip your head off? I don't get it. But I hope she's changed. I hope good things, right? I hope. Because I view it a lot like, I think you do, that there's more to that story that. I don't know. There's some. Something. Some kind of hurt or suffering or loss. And it may be something that's happening internally inside of her. It may have been something external. But I think we as humans have this tendency to, like, it's almost like the Israeli and Israeli Palestinian conflict, like, whose fault it is, like, what year you decide to stop in history. And I think intergenerational trauma is a bit like that. Like, we're traumatizing each other, passing it on. And if I say that 1985 or 1986 is the year where we start this story, then you're the bad guy. But if we start the story in 1970, then maybe you're the victim, right? And I think that's an, important thing to keep in mind when you're thinking about giving people grace or forgiveness. I do think people need to demonstrate that their behaviors are different for you to let them back into your life. But in terms of grace and forgiveness, understanding people are complex and people and life is complicated. but you would think, right, that going through an experience like that would have left me, I think, feeling wounded. And I actually, in a way, and looking back at my life, and I remember thinking about this in high school, like, wow, this experience of going through sexual abuse has made it so much easier for my girlfriends who have gone through sexual abuse to open up to me about the uncles who abused them, the other people who have abused them. I feel that same way with my clients. It's Actually, it's actually shocking to me because I think sometimes in environments where I don't have closer relationships with people, how many people in those groups are experiencing abuse they didn't talk about? When I just compare it to environments where I am close with people, and it's like 1 in 3, 1 and 2, 1 and 4 in many of those environments. And I feel like that had been just such a blessing and such a gift to have that. And I guess that's one of the things that I. I enjoy talking to people about. The fact that there are some bright sides, that there are opportunities in those dumpster fires to make marshmallows. Or as my old colleague at the New York Times used to say, make turn chicken shit into chicken salad.

>> Tiffanie: I ain't eating that salad.

>> Jayson: I imagine it's something that probably that concept of how do we bring something? How do we acknowledge and accept and not run from our hurt, and how do we bring something good into the world from it? Ah, I think just taking your time, giving yourself that space and then finding your way to it. And I think for a lot of the people who. Because in ways, we are all victims of something. A lot of people who are victims of things in the moment, it's really hard to see the good for you that can come out of it, the good for other people that can come out of it. But in that moment where you're sitting there and someone is, let's say for me, pouring their heart out and sharing something that they never would have otherwise shared if they didn't either know about your experience or your experience hadn't changed the way that you interacted with people. I don't want to say it's all worth it, because, good Lord, I wish that there was another way to become that empathetic or that caring or develop those skills. But in that moment, you know your sufferings worth it because you're leaving someone else's suffering, just like my parents alleviated mine. And we're passing something down that isn't intergenerational trauma. It's intergenerational healing in a way. And I love that. That. That concept.

>> Tiffanie: I love that. Generational healing. Yes. That's where it's at. We need to stop passing down this craziness instead pass down the strength that we have.

>> Jayson: Yep, yep. and I think that's one of the. Whether you realize it or not, I think that's one of the most powerful things about your message. And part of what you're doing is really taking your own healing and passing it on to all your listeners and your guests and other people along those lines. it's powerful and impactful, as you and your listeners know. And I danced through life after that. And I, ultimately became a reporter. I worked for the Washington Post, Boston Globe, New York Times. Fairly young as a reporter, but one of the things, when you're a young reporter, wherever you are, you're going to end up on the police beat. That's just going to be a part of it. Disasters, fires, midnights and weather stories. That's the other thing you're always going to end up doing weather stories, stories asking people how they feel about the rain. I don't know. What do you think?

>> Tiffanie: I think it's wet and cold.

>> Jayson: So I didn't even know how to formulate the questions at that point. After the pandemic began, it was right. Like in March 2020, as the pandemic was beginning, I had made the decision after years of not regularly being in therapy, I was like, I really need to go back to therapy. We're, like, in the middle of this crisis. I'm running a business. I've got, all these people I love and care about. I need to be strong for them. I need to be strong for me and not allow my anxiety to run out of control and start making insane decisions in this great unknown, if anybody remembers the great unknown. And so I went back to therapy in about. And it was really great. It was wonderful to have the support, support and somebody to sort of like, you know, process everything that was going on. But as things stabilized in the pandemic, we began to sort of, like, instead of focusing on the acute crisis, looking forward.


There's something about the randomness of human life that are frightening

And, you know, there is this time where my therapist and I were. We were talking about, like, something related to my reporting. And I can't remember how it came up, but I was telling her the story of. One of my first stories was a crime story. And I was in high school. It was like the summer after high school, and I was working for the weekly newspaper. And I can't remember whether it's like four or five, I think. Was it four or five? It was four or five kids, local kids who were my age, who went to the school right beside my school, the high school beside mine, where my mom was also a teacher at the time. They had seen a movie where a bunch of kids laid under a train, and they went out to Manassas, Virginia, at the train yards and laid under the train, but they didn't know about cattle prods on Trains, which are like meant to knock cattles and debris and they're very low as opposed to the rest of the, the train and they were destroyed. And I remember the scene, there were like small parts of bodies for probably 50 yards because it takes a lot to stop a train. And I'm m telling her the story and I think it was something about like my affect which was not like this in telling the story. I certainly wasn't giggling as I was telling her, but I was giving her the example and I started giving her other examples. Like one, I'm not sure if I gave her this one at this time, but I'm sure I did. But like one time where I was like, I should definitely consider pulling back from police reporting. So sitting in Brooklyn is the middle of the night. And when you're a police reporter during the day there are always police lines so you have to stay back. And you can't actually talk to the detectives. You have to hide around the corners they're going to come into and try and get to them. But at night there are no rules. So you're like rolling up on the crime scene chatting with them. And one time like there's this guy who shot, his body's in the road in Brooklyn and the detectives are like laughing and joking, you know, normal gallows humor. And the detective is like, do you want a Pez? And I'm like sure, I'll take a Pez. And so he takes the PEZ dispenser and he like hands it to me and I look down and I'm taking a PEZ over a dead body. And like I had become that desensitized to it that I was like maybe I should take a break. But that should have been a sign. This is just more evidence that I'm a knucklehead because that's, that should have been a sign. And so I'm telling her these stories and she's like, how many dead bodies have you seen? And I'm like, I do not know. And I started counting in my head because I've seen in plane crashes. I was there in New York for nine, 11, you know, all sorts of murders and accidents. One that strikes me just hits me on my core is interesting. The one that I have the most reoccurring thoughts about is not a murder, at all. It's a little girl. It was like 12, 11 year old girl who was just walking with her book bag outside of her school and a brick fell off the top of the roof and Killed her. Like, that's the reoccurring one. Is very funny. I don't walk by buildings the same way other people do.

>> Tiffanie: I could imagine. That's crazy.

>> Jayson: Yeah. Yeah. There's something about the randomness, I think the fragility of human life and the randomness of death that are. That are frightening. Anyway, so my therapist wisely sent me off and she was like, you have a project. I want you to come back with a count. And I came back the next week and I was like, I stopped counting at 270. And she asked me after I sort of like, racked them up for her and in my, head, you know, like drownings, plane crashes. I was there 9, 11. But also the plane crash that happened in November afterwards that where the plane actually crashed in the middle of a street in Far Rockaway, 747. And even that one is not the bodies. It was the luggage and the trees. Like kids, little stuff and things like that. So she asked me how many of those were natural deaths. Oh. And I was like, zero. None. Like, I didn't see my grandfather die. I didn't see. I. I never seen. Until my mother died last year. I'd never seen, natural, natural death. So everything was very unnatural. And I think one of the things that I learned in that therapy that was really amazing and I was lucky. My therapist really trauma informed. She had a lot of experience with trauma because she worked with first responders, EMTs, firefighters, police officers. But one of the things that was very interesting, we sort of came to the conclusion that I had without even realizing it, because through my whole life I thought, like, I was traumatized by the sexual abuse, but I managed it relatively well. And now I'm fine. But that I had really built these, like, walls that separated people. And I know all of our walls can look very different. My walls, like I've told you, operated a bit like a light switch where I could emotionally invest and m. Engage. And then I could turn it off in a moment and like, just go. And you know, like, people think of that and they think like, oh, you turned into a serial killer. I'm like, no, no, no, no, no, no. It's just the absence of. Right. It's not like necessarily darkness. It's just nothing. It's just feeling nothing. Which is great in a crisis or if you're like a sniper. I mean, it's gonn skills in certain moments. But what I found was the way I described my therapist, I was like, it's really easy to turn the Switch off. It's very hard to turn it back on. And so the metaphor we used is like, you've got to make a decision. Do you want to be a guy with a light switch that can make all your emotions go away and you feel safe because you can control this and you could turn it off, or do you want to be a guy with a dimmer? You know, it might take a little bit longer. You may not have as much control over it. You may need to go back and forth. And you know, initially I was like, I'm, not kidding. I was like, of course I want to be a guy switch who wouldn't make your emotions. But actually the metaphor that kind of like pounded through my head was like painkillers. Like, if you have a bottle of Percocet after an accident and like, the pain is starting to go away, but you, like, you're afraid the pain is going to come back, you just grab the Percocet. Like, and actually it was just an itch. And now, now you're completely high and.


Jay says making the decision to feel helped him through difficult times

Or whatever it is that when you have that light switch, how do you know you're not flipping the switch too early or flipping the switch and missing out an opportunity for joy? Because you don't really. Like, I really am a firm believer of like, no light exists without darkness. No joy exists without sadness and pain. So intellectually I got that part. But she was such a cool therapist because she just said, you have to just make a choice. Do you want to be this person who feels safe and misses out on joy in life because that might actually work for you, or do you want to take the risk and jump out and try and feel? And so after about a year of going back and forth, I was like, I'm going to make the jump to try to feel and trust me, it wasn't like I decided. And then it happened. It happened in some fits and starts, man, and some running back to that compartmentalization and that light switch. One of the things that I. I think I. One of the great big revelations, like as an example in this for me was eventually I realized in this process that my mom had been ill for like six, seven years. And I realized I had actually, as much as I love her and as much as I meant to her, I had been pulling away from her. In retrospect, you can hear things. I can hear things in my head that my partner, my sister in law said about like, you know, your mom's not going to be around Jay or other things forever. I think they were picking up on the fact that I was pulling away as she was getting sicker. And I think one of the really cool things about deciding to feel is it allowed me to run toward her for the last year of her life instead of run away, from her. It was not the easiest thing to do, but. Oh, my God, I'm so glad because I would have missed out on so much if I. If I hadn't done that. And so, you know, I. I can't pretend to say that making that choice in front, when faced with your trauma and your coping mechanisms, you've come up to manage it, that it's the right move for everybody, or that any time is the right time. Because I'm sure my brain created that light switch for a reason. Them. Right. To protect me when I wasn't safe. Right.

>> Tiffanie: You don't have to feel. You don't have to face things. It's easier. You're just. You just exist.

>> Jayson: Yeah. And I think there are probably moments where, I don't know. What do you. What do you think? I. I think that there are probably moments where all we can do is exist. And, like, we need it. Just like, the days where we need, like, comfort food or we can't go to work, or we need a mental health day. Like, there are moments where, like, maybe the pain is so deep and so difficult that you don't. That you don't need it or that you don't, or you can't deal with it. And that is a great tool. But the problem with that tool is, like, once you pick it up, how do you put it down?

>> Tiffanie: I always think if you keep pushing something off, pushing something off, pushing something off, one day you are just. You're gonna lose it because there's something's gonna happen. And all that stuff, all those feelings, all those thoughts that you pushed aside, they coming out whether you want them to or not. You can't hide all that forever. You will get sick. You will literally get sick. Sick because your body doesn't know what to do with it.

>> Jayson: Sort of like that idea that we're keeping, almost keeping a secret from ourselves. We're trying to hide it, we're trying. But at the same time, we're allowing a kind of cancer to fester inside of us without, like, treatment. That's an interesting.

>> Tiffanie: Oh, for sure.

>> Jayson: Yeah. And there's the piece, of it where it's like, there's a downstream effect of that.


After leaving the New York Times in a scandal, Jason had difficult relationships

And I think one of the kind of like, bright, brightest revelations in this has Been like being able to feel and have those emotions. I can tell you that the last two years of my life have been like being a toddler again, like crying at a dime and. But it allows me to be more vulnerable again. It allows me to like, love people more deeply. so there are all those, there are all those, I think positive things about it. But when I look back in life during the period where I actually had tremendous success, I rebuilt my life. After leaving the New York Times in a scandal, I. All these good things were going on. But even I had difficult time connecting with even my mom. I had difficult time connecting with the people who were closest to me. I had a 10 year relationship and with my current best friend because there was no. The most intimate version of relationship with me was still. Even though I didn't realize it 10ft away, because even though I didn't think of it that way, it truly operated in a world with plenty of optimism but a firm belief that nothing was safe enough to be within this zone, if that makes sense. And I think there's the harmful part for me, right? That loss of opportunity for deep connection. But I also think there's a harmful part for other people because other people, like, you know, they hear our words, right? And I'm not, I, I don't throw I love you around, but whatever it is, I never have really been an I love you thrower. But, what they hear, like socially, there's certain acceptable things that you say in any interconnection with other people. And they hear these words from me, but they don't have the same meaning for me. They don't have the same depth for me. So I'm, These relationships would develop where I would have deep relationships for them with me, but it never had that same depth for me. And so in retrospect, like, not only do I owe 10,000 people an apology, but I was fostering and nurturing a connection toward me that I didn't really have for them. And that inevitably led to, hurt and disappointment because those words meant something to them that they never made to, meant to me. And that's another revelation. Like my lack of tending my trauma with a healthy coping skill has had a great cost for other people.

>> Tiffanie: I could totally see that. Because you weren't emotionally available for them. You had cut that off. And it seems like you probably weren't even there for yourself emotionally. You were just out to lunch, you had that sign up and it never went down fishing.

>> Jayson: Yeah. And I think there's. Yeah. And I You know, it ends up being a synergistic effect. But I think one of the. And, you probably see this in people, too, that we learn, like, we have social norms, and there's certain things we do, and there's certain things we say. You buy some of flowers, you give them a gift. You do X, Y, or Z, you ask them how their weekend was, right? Like, all these social niceties. And I'm sure, like, the weekend one is a great example, because I think it's about 50, 50 of us who, like, actually want to know what your weekend's like. And the, other 50 of us are like, don't care. Just totally being totally nice, I think.

>> Tiffanie: Oh, no. You know what my favorite is? When someone goes, hey, how you doing? But they keep.

>> Jayson: They keep walking.

>> Tiffanie: So you're.

>> Jayson: They're looking down.

>> Tiffanie: How's your day?

>> Jayson: I literally had that happen in the hallway today where he was walking righteously. How are you doing? It's just through the doors before she stops waving a word out. but, yeah, so those things are, like, harmless versions of them. But we have all sorts of similar social things that we do, I think, in close relationships, close friendships that carry deep meaning. And here's what I felt like. Here's what I felt like. I was. It was a mimicry that I was modeling and singing the song of a human. And it would convince people that I was a human and that I was actually connected to them. But it was really just me replicating the social norms around me.

>> Tiffanie: So inside, were you like, I am a robot.

>> Jayson: What it felt like. And actually, you know, people make comments. They'd be like, we're in the middle of a crisis. Why are you so calm? I'm like, like what? I'm like, I am robot, Jason. I think it. It felt. I. I think at times it felt like that, but I. I think at times it's very funny because I think at times it just felt like, oh, that's what I'm supposed to say, because that's what that person needs to hear to feel better. So I'm gonna say this right now. And it felt like. You know what it felt like? It felt like a math equation. All right? Person feels, seven. And we need to get them to 10, so we need three. And if I put one plus two together, that equals three. And if I give it to them, then there are 10, and we're good.

>> Tiffanie: And that's why I hate math.

>> Jayson: Don't worry. I'm not even sure if any of that math added up.

>> Tiffanie: Letters and numbers don't go together and either feelings.

>> Jayson: Oh, that's so funny. It's so true. It's so true.


Race says grief has been love that has nowhere to go

I think if I had a message back to the people, I think certainly people. There are a lot of people who feel like they've never gone through something traumatic. And I. I suspect there are some people on this planet, so probably all one year old now. Birth is probably traumatic, but I'm sure there are people somewhere out there who don't. But I think we should all search our soul for our suffering and spend some time thinking about how it affects our lives. And I just think I'm so lucky to have that therapist who got me focused on what was it subtracting from my own life and joy. Like, this joy thing, like, as I began to unravel and I realized I had concluded, well, joy is just not worth it. And I will tell you, I've been a bumbling mess for the last two years, emotionally a bumbling mess. It's been so awesome. It has been unbelievably awesome. I don't. I mean, look, I. I felt an amount in a measure of love for other people and have been able to accept other people's love in a way that. I'm just baffled. I would pay any price for this. Right. I was talking to somebody today helping, out, this friend of a friend who has cancer. And I. So, like, I'm providing some financial support, doing some other things, some emotional support, and I was talking to another friend who's not a part of that circle about it today. And I was like, if I could go in and take her cancer away from her and take it myself and have it, I would. And my friends said to me, I totally believe you, actually, I believe you would. And, like, being able to feel that kind of love for people and being able to give that kind of love to people, I. For me, the emotional safety of being able to flip that switch off is not worth the joy and sense of connection that comes from that. It's not worth. I. I don't think I would have ever found peace in the grief of my mom's passing. I don't think I would have been able to look at it and even understand. I think I would have felt the grief, but I would have had no idea what it was. And because I've come to the conclusion that my grief has really just been love that has nowhere to go. And to me, I think being able to take that love, being able to take that legacy, the things that my mom did and grab her love and pass it along to other people. I don't think any of that would be happening if I hadn't opened myself up to this.

>> Tiffanie: So probably never would have spent that time with her. And it just would have been another day that something happened. But it's so powerful. And I'm so happy that you did choose to actually do the work, because if not, just think of how much more you could have missed out on.

>> Jayson: Yeah. And I see it like being sober. It is a daily struggle. Some days are easy, some days are hard, like any habit you're trying to break. But so far, and I can't say I'd, be lying to you if I told you that last year has not been filled with other elements of grief. But even in those moments where I felt deeply sad about things, there's also this sense of appreciation that I feel in those moments of sadness. Appreciation. Just like anything you lose, right? You can lose your favorite toy and cry about your favorite toy, as you should, because it was your favorite toy. And you can also appreciate your time with it too. And I think if I didn't cry because I could flip the switch and not cry, I'd also probably not appreciate in the same way. It would be like taking art off my wall and losing some of the beauty.

>> Tiffanie: Right? It would mean it didn't mean anything to you. And clearly it did.

>> Jayson: There it is. And I. I know, man, like, it's. It's funny too, because I think some, of it's gendered, some of it's not, but I think some of it's also. Race could play a role in it. But I think we're whatever it is, right? Like we're not. We as humans are not wired to think of ourselves as victims of things. And I think very often that mentality leads to us. Us to become victims of ourselves and our self delusion. And I think just being able to sort of like search your life and identify your suffering and seeing how it impacts you and how it impacts other people and seeing how you can find good out of it, it's just a life lesson. If you go back to, the being sexually molested and then being able to help out my friends then, and going through this kind of trauma and in the last year, being able to love people more deeply, none of that happens. If I don't open myself up and if I'm not willing to be vulnerable, my podcast wouldn't exist. I don't think if I made that decision or it would exist in some Much more annoying form. I think.

>> Tiffanie: I was thinking about that. Not the annoying part, but would it exist? Yeah, because you're trying to help people. I mean, would you be wanting to help people?

>> Jayson: possibly. I think I would have been wanting to help people, but it would have been like your Tesla wants to drive like a robot doing it. And I think the. The big difference there is you're going through. Going back to that math. You're going through the mathematical formula of helping people, like the script, and you're not going through it. It becomes very objective, and it eliminates the subjective things like the art of it, the vulnerability, the. The spiritual part of it. All these things that come to bear that logic cannot solve or figure out. So, yeah, it would have been a boring podcast. It would have been like a puzzle.

>> Tiffanie: You would have been on there, Johnny number five.

>> Jayson: Yes, yes. It would have been the opposite of your podcast, for sure.


When you allow people to really tell their stories, things become relatable

Like, let's talk about our feels. Well, well. And this is going to come back to your podcast. I think that's really been one of the blessings. Like, you know this, but your listeners don't know. Like, I'm messaging you about guests. You're like, I've had her on twice. And then I'm, like, grabbing and going and listening to those episodes. I've gone through your backlog, and every episode learned something beautiful and relatable. Even when I'm, like, looking at the description of the episode and I'm like, well, that has nothing to do with me, but I may want to know something about that. I'm, like, halfway through, I'm like, oh, yeah, man, that does have to do with me.

>> Tiffanie: Oh, but I love that so much.

>> Jayson: Yeah, I think it's the power of, like, when you allow people to really tell their stories, things become relatable in ways that they wouldn't like. And I think there are all sorts of social ills, I think, that can be addressed by. If we just had the opportunity, which comes back to my podcast, I think, to be able to talk to people intimately and listen to them and hear them. Like, I think we, have a tendency to focus on that narrow sliver of what's different about us. And people are way more alike than they are different. We have way more in common than we. And that, and going back to the episode with you, people who are perpetrators of things or who do bad acts, whether it's a mistake or not, we often look at them as so unbelievably different than us, but in reality, like, the amount that's different than us is like this or nothing. And it gives us an opportunity to love them more deeply, to love ourselves more, be honest with ourselves about who we are. And that one, I say, is a tough one because when you're watching that, I don't know, pick that murder trial and you're demonizing the, the accused or the, the convicted, Are you really looking at them realistically? If you can't see the parts of them that are like you, like maybe you'll never commit a murder. Maybe this has nothing to do with murder. But like that person loves their kids like you do. That person did X, Y or Z like you do. And I think that there's something about accepting that that allows us to connect. I hate to say that sound like a James Taylor song, but like, I think there's just like a real opportunity to shower people with love. If we accept that we're more alike than we are different.

>> Tiffanie: Absolutely. They're all people. And so many of the serial killers, I mean, obviously you have a choice to make. When you've been molested, neglected, abused, you have choices. You can live in that trauma for the rest of your life. You could fix yourself or you could become a victor yourself and victimize people. Unfortunately, sometimes people don't know where that cross comes to. And so they keep pushing and pushing and pushing. And now you are way too far. But I don't think any of them really expect to go that far. It always starts off with fantasy.

>> Jayson: Yeah. And I don't, I don't think Johnny is generally walking down the street thinking as a 4 year old, like when I'm an 18 year old, I want to carjack someone and kill them. Or I don't think to your point about like serial killers and there may be exceptions, right, because we don't know everyone's history. But even if you look at somebody like Ed Kemper or some of the most notorious serial killers, I, I don't. It didn't, it doesn't. It tends not to start out with wanting to do harm, but to your point, it starts out with wanting to fulfill fantasy. The thing about fantasy is the more, quote unquote, societally deviant your fantasy is, the more you have to hide it, the more, to your point from before, the more it builds up. And it builds up and it twists and becomes bigger and then all of a sudden you have this giant ball of harm. That is the only way that you can feel fulfilled.

>> Tiffanie: And right.

>> Jayson: And I think by the way, that's relatable to everyone. Because if you walked into an AA meeting down the street, they would say, you're only as sick as your secrets and you need to process this stuff that, like that part of it, maybe not the serial killing part, but that part of what's going on internally. 100 relatable. If you're honest with you, you're only.

>> Tiffanie: As sick as your secrets. Oh, why do I love that so much?

>> Jayson: Yeah. Because I think it's fundamental and those are also the secrets you hide from yourself. But I think it's fundamental in just taking it back to the alcoholics idea is that obviously things are not going well when you're an alcoholic and you're drinking. But actually the real sign that things are going off the rails usually comes before you start drinking and you start keeping secrets and you start lying and they become poison. Because what does that poison of a secret become? It becomes shame. It drives really fast past guilt and straight into shame. And what a shame. Cause you want to do, make poor decisions, right?

>> Tiffanie: Yeah, oh, absolutely, absolutely. It all builds on each other and.

>> Jayson: It cuts you off from your support too. That's the other thing about secrets. Just like you were talking about serial killers or we're talking about alcoholics having secrets cut you off from the people that you, that support.


Having someone that you can share the things that you're struggling with is important

I have a client who's doing really well. This relatively young client, I mean he's been doing exceptionally well. I've been working with him on and off for years. He's come back from college like first three months of beautiful stability. And he said to me today that he had, for the first time in six months, he had had a, he had anxiety and an urge to have a drink and he bought alcohol and he had a drink. But he's like. And his mom and his brother are important parts of his sobriety. And he's like, I'm not going to tell him because I'm m not going to tell my mom because she's having a procedure coming up and I don't want her to worry. And I genuinely believe that that's what his reason was. And I was like, okay, you keep that secret for three days. Let's see how that works, right? You, not only will you be carrying a secret that you think about every time that you talk to her, you'll be cutting off your support. And if you go and you tell her right now that it just happened yesterday, that's going to be a sign of improvement to her. I don't think it's going to cause her to Worry. And I really do believe, like, eliminating secrets does not mean sharing everything with everyone in the world about you. Right. We all have different, different masks that are legit and perfectly fine, but always having someone that you can share the things that you're struggling with or that are ailing you or that you're wondering about or that scramble things in your brain, I think it's just an important part of always staying healthy.

>> Tiffanie: Yeah. You're allowed to let your mind wander and to think about some weird shit. Just don't live there and don't act on it.

>> Jayson: Right, Right. Yes, yes. And, yeah. And I think to that point, don't let it be a source of shame.

>> Tiffanie: Right, Right. And I think, yeah, there's no turning back once. Then it's live.

>> Jayson: Yes, yes, yes. It's funny. Like, I've been. I've spent a lifetime, of watching people, like, I guess as a reporter, you're constantly paying attention to this. We all see it, but, like, building themselves up and then falling off of pedestals. And there are a couple common things. I see those challenges of shame, and hiding things. And in that combination of, like, shame hitting pride and that unwillingness to admit that you need to. You need help and you need to be vulnerable. This is why probably I cry as many tears on my podcast as my guest, too, because I'm trying to, in every one of those interactions, open my whole heart up to what's in front of me. Because I think I've realized over time that the pride's not going to get me anywhere, like, looking strong or looking tough or being. And the people who are attracted to that and who need that all the time are not going to be the people who are going to be able to love me in any deep, authentic way. So anyway.

>> Tiffanie: Yeah, they're not your people.

>> Jayson: Who are my people?

>> Tiffanie: Yeah, that's right.

>> Jayson: We're gonna have you back on some point soon.

>> Tiffanie: Ah.

>> Jayson: We're going to two times a week in November, so look out.

>> Tiffanie: Good for you.

>> Jayson: Yeah, it's gonna be crazy town. I think what really happened to me was, like, I was like, look, I keep on coming up with all these ideas for guests. My listeners are now coming up with all these ideas for gas. And I want to talk to them all, and I want to talk to them all tomorrow. And I was like, well, my life is not long enough to get to all these guests. And then the solution was, like, simple, wait, hold on, I can double up. It's going to be. It's going to be exciting. It's going to be interesting, it's going to be fun, and hopefully we'll get a chance to have you back on sometime soon.

>> Tiffanie: I would love that.

>> Jayson: Cool.

>> Tiffanie: I'll, make sure I put a link to your podcast in the show notes so people can check out your podcast because it is very uplifting and amazing.

>> Jayson: Thank you. Just like yours, my friend. Just like yours.


Jason M. Bennett: Anything you wanted to leave the listeners with

>> Tiffanie: So is there anything you wanted to leave the listeners with?

>> Jayson: Love yourselves enough to take a risk.

>> Tiffanie: That's right. M. That's right. And if you know anyone who could use this episode, please share it with them. we need to share the wealth of knowledge that we all put together in this world. Our experiences, equal knowledge. And sometimes we can save people from such heartache in the future, from helping them where they are now. So please, anyone listening, if you're like, oh, my gosh, Timmy needs to hear this, send it to Timmy. Timmy, send it. All right, well, thank you so much for being on Jason. I really enjoyed this.

>> Jayson: Be good, my friend. I will see you soon, I'm sure.

>> Tiffanie: Oh, I'm sure, too.