Prevention, Protection, and Purpose | A Conversation with Nichole and Jim Schmidt

Join us for a heartfelt episode where we explore the profound impact of domestic violence and the urgent need for prevention and protection. My guests, Nichole and Jim Schmidt from the Gabby Petito Foundation, share their heartbreaking journey following the tragic loss of their daughter, Gabby Petito, in 2021. They discuss the vital importance of recognizing the signs of domestic abuse, which affects one in four women and one in nine men, and the need for society to become more proactive in addressing this pervasive issue.

We emphasize the critical role of education in schools to help young people understand what constitutes a healthy relationship and how to set boundaries. They stress the importance of teaching respectful relationships from a young age and providing children with the tools to navigate the complexities of social media and peer interactions. They also highlight the need for community support and training to create safe spaces for victims to seek help.

We share insights into the challenges faced by survivors, including the barriers to leaving abusive relationships and the societal misconceptions that often blame victims. They call for greater awareness and legal reform to address issues like coercive control and strangulation, which are often overlooked but incredibly dangerous.

Join us as we delve into the foundations' advocacy work and their mission to change the narrative around domestic violence, offering hope and resources to those in need.

How to contact:
https://www.gabbypetitofoundation.org/

Transcript

One in four women and one in nine men fall victim to domestic violence

>> Tiffanie: This week we are talking about finding purpose and pain, and the purpose is prevention and protection, and that is to help other families from going through the same tragic outcomes that my guests with me today have gone through. We don't want this happening to any other families. And with me today, which I'm so excited, is from the Gabby Petito Foundation, Nicole and Jim Schmidt, mother and stepfather of Gabby Petito, who went missing at the age of 22 in the summer of 2021. Her body was later found deceased by the hands of her fiance, Brian. I think it's fair to say that prevention is key here. Statistics show that one in four women and one in nine men fall victim to violence and. Or stalking. Domestic abuse does not discriminate. It does not care what color, how old you are, your. Your religion, what you do for a living. It. It will pick anybody. And I'm sure you guys have dug into all the statistics and, have heard an outreach from people who are going through the same things.

>> Nichole: Yes, we never planned on becoming domestic violence experts, but I feel like everybody needs to become a domestic violence expert because it affects so, so many people. Like you said, it doesn't hold discriminate. It's everyone and everywhere, and it affects us as a society. And knowing those signs and knowing how to prevent it and getting to our youth and knowing how to talk to kids about it, it will change things. But we need to do it together as a society.

>> Tiffanie: We really need to start enforcing this in schools, I believe, because obviously these kids either have anger issues, there's built up. They could be victims themselves of childhood trauma, abuse at home, and they don't know what to do with it. And we really need to get in there to start giving them a healthy outlet.

>> Jim: Yeah, I think we absolutely agree with that. And I think it's all in how you frame it to get it into schools. Because we do live in a hypersensitive society where if you say certain things, they don't want it into the school system. But I think if you frame it properly and you talk about respectful relationships, which is something we instilling our children young, but kind of building upon that as they get older, you know, telling them what it looks like to be, you know, friend, even just friends, you know, hands, no hands, you know, no, don't touch, you know, from a young age to what a healthy relationship looks like, what boundaries are, you know, what's okay to have, what's not okay, and kind of building on that as they get older and they start to grow because these Kids have the world at their fingertips at a very young age. And I think if they're not going to hear it from. From trusted adults that are working to help them, they're going to find it from somewhere else. And that might not be the best information for them.

>> Tiffanie: Oh, for sure. And so many of them are just throwing their lives away over things that are temporary. You know, somebody breaks up with you and you're like, oh, I have to hurt them now. Like, no.

>> Nichole: Yeah. I think it's become so normalized, especially in social media today. Like, social media is making it worse. You would think today, in 20, 24, 30 years after the movement, the woman's movement, Right. Like, we got this. We're going to get this domestic violence fix. It's still the same. It's actually getting worse. So what are we doing wrong? We're being reactive and we're not being proactive. So getting to the youth, getting into the schools, it's hard. Parents don't want it. Parents don't understand it. Social, emotional learning is part of it. Mental health, I mean, there's so much that goes into it. We just want to get to the kids, speak their language, and show them, what a healthy relationship looks like, which they may not have at home. Not every kid has a happy home, unfortunately. So where can they get that? They can get that in school. Maybe the teachers can, you know, connect with them on a different level. We need to just think outside the box and figure out how to prevent it in the next upcoming generations.

>> Tiffanie: Oh, for sure. And it's just, it's sad because this is so needed. But I, I can understand why some parents might want to push back, because kind of like, you know, my son is a little off, but not really. When he was, like, in fifth grade, they're shoving drugs and sex and stuff down his throat. And I'm like, okay, like, we don't need that.


We need to stop normalizing violence against women specifically

Instead, let's talk about, emotions. Let's talk about more important things than that at that age.

>> Jim: Well, the kids are. They're really being exposed to more and more at a young age. So I think all that kind of does come into play, but I think it has to be done in, like, systematically in a way that starts to kind of, as they develop and, and grow in life, to kind of put all these pieces together, but really starting with that respectful piece of it, how to treat others, how you should be treated. We live in an age where the world is at our fingertips in a second, so they expect immediate responses. And then if they don't now they start looking into social media, say they're dating and they're not responding back as quickly and starting to follow them on their social media stuff or stalking people. So there's ways, even bullying to get through to kids nowadays. That, used to be, back in the day, if you had an issue in school, you'd go home during a safe place. Now there's really not a safe place because it's, it's always there. There's always ways to get to these kids and I think kind of teaching them how to be safe around those, those tools and stuff like that, like around social media, around. Around your friends. I think just kind of building on that as they get older. I think it was all really important to talk about, you know, drugs and, and sex and domestic violence. And it's really more domestic abuse, I would say.

>> Nichole: Yeah. And I think even now people look at domestic abuse, they hear the term and they think it's physical only they don't realize coercive control is the main type of domestic violence. And that's a big issue because people don't see it. They don't know the red flags because they're not seeing bruises. They're not, you know, seeing broken bones. And it's, that's not what it is, unfortunately.

>> Tiffanie: It's.

>> Nichole: And the laws aren't written for coercive control. So there's so much to be changed.

>> Tiffanie: It's like our laws need to catch up. For sure.

>> Jim: If there's a friend who's making you feel bad about yourself on a consistent basis, it doesn't even have to be a girlfriend or a boyfriend or whatever. But if you have somebody that's always making you feel bad about yourself, well, that's not healthy. Your friends, the people around you should be uplifting you and making you feel good, helping make you be the best version of yourself and, and together. And if it starts like that, you know, that's kind of where those, you start to see those unhealthy relationship patterns start.

>> Nichole: Yeah, I want to, with little kids, like preschool, maybe even kindergarten up, plant seeds, right? We plant the seeds of healthy relationships and boundaries, and then we start changing the language as they grow. This is something we're really working on in the foundation. We want to start, you know, teaching the youth free. We don't want anybody to have to pay for any programs. These kids should be learning this anyway. So it's going to take a long time, but we are working on it. We're going to start with social media and having access to our website and access to other programs that are out there, so we can kind of become a hub for all these prevention programs. And, you know, we are so excited to. To build on that.

>> Tiffanie: And no, I love that. It's so needed. And, like, if you think about it.

>> Nichole: Remember when you were so young, it's.

>> Tiffanie: Like, when a boy's mean to you, it means he likes you.

>> Nichole: Exactly.

>> Tiffanie: Like, we need to rewrite that.

>> Nichole: That's not okay. Yeah, we have to change the narrative. Stop normalizing violence against women specifically. I think that, you know, we were just hearing recently, like, guys going up to girls in high school and middle school saying, like, I can do whatever I want to you. Like, you' Your body's mine. And, you know, it's just like, this is not funny. I don't know why we're. We're doing this, but yeah, so. And social media platforms need to also take a stand and maybe delete these, you know, these videos that are being put up, when boys are being disrespectful to women specifically. But, yeah, it's. There's so many things, right? Like, there's so, so many variables.

>> Jim: It's like, there's so many layers on it.

>> Tiffanie: And then you have a new platform that pops up every week. So it's like, how can you even keep up with all of this? Yeah, and that's a big problem. Like, social media can do amazing things. Especially like, you know, when Gabby was missing, people went into action. That is great. But then there's the really ugly side of it where it's just. It's almost like, oh, look at what they're doing. That's so cool. Like, people getting in fights and they're videotaping it, and nobody's calling the cops. They're just posting it on social media.

>> Jim: First thing they do is they pick up the phone.

>> Tiffanie: Right.

>> Jim: Live Streaming, not call 911.

>> Nichole: Yeah. There's gotta be a way to teach people how to be good bystanders. For example, the 911 callers for my daughter in Moab, Utah, they were amazing bystanders. They chose to pick the phone. They saw something going on, and they had all the right information to give. That information wasn't used correctly. However, that was a good bystander. They didn't get themselves involved in. In an unsafe situation, but they. They knew what to do. So if we can help train communities on how to respond or how to get people resources without putting themselves in an unsafe situation. Like, this is another aspect to it where Everybody is around is, is going to be educated. Yeah, it's a lot.

>> Tiffanie: Especially law enforcement, judges. I, I feel like they all need it because you can have people standing in front of and you're telling all the crazy stuff this person is doing to you and it's a slap on the wrist. Like you don't realize that this is only gonna escalate. Like these things, they don't just go away.

>> Jim: And you see that specifically in cases involving strangulation and strangulation. And people who strangle are single handedly one of the most dangerous people who walk the face of the earth. And strangulation is a felony. Pretty much all 50 states depending on the level of it.


Over 90% of people charged with felony strangulation are never convicted

But over 90% of the people that are charged with felony strangulation are never convicted of it. It's either the charges are dropped, they're downgraded to misdemeanor assault and battery, probation or batteries intervention program. And if a, if a intimate partner has been strangled even once by that person, they're at a 750% higher chance of being murdered. So it's not a matter of if, it's when. So they're going to kill him again or they're going to kill him, they're going to attack him again. They are also the most dangerous people to law enforcement. So 40% of the suspects who kill police officers in the line of duty have a history of strangulation. These people are very dangerous and yet they're let back out on the street.

>> Nichole: And this includes sexual strangulation? Yes, people that think it's okay, this is causing brain damage, causing strokes, blood clots. I mean there's so many, so many.

>> Jim: Carotid dissections, it goes on and on. And thing about strangulation is less than 50% of people who have been strangled have any external marks on their body. And then with that oxygen deprivation to the brain, they have severe memory loss. So they make for a terrible witness and they recant often. So for prosecutors sometimes it's very difficult to convict. So then that's why a lot of times they get dropped. And educating more judges, more prosecutors, law enforcement, we, we. I just heard of a great program in the city of Burleson, Texas that they're running where the fire department, the police department, the DV center and the judicial system are all together with the strangulation program. And they're seeing a higher success rate of these people being convicted and also people getting the help they need right away and not having, being Revictimized again. So there's good programs out there, and it's just getting that information out to everybody. Everybody.

>> Tiffanie: I don't understand why, when something works so good, why other states don't pick it up. Like there's clear evidence this is. Happened like it's healthy.

>> Nichole: Yeah, well, our goal, I know, like, my goal specifically, what I said this from day one, is the laws that we change need to become federal laws. Every state needs to be doing the same thing. They need to be on the same page because a lot of these perpetrators move around a lot.

>> Tiffanie: Oh, yeah.

>> Nichole: So. And so their records are being transferred. They have different records everywhere. Like, they. They need to be on the same page and get these guys where they need to be. A lot of these guys are just released and. And somebody dies.

>> Tiffanie: So.

>> Nichole: And I mean, listen, not every domestic violence situation is somebody that has a history. A lot of times that cops have never been called on, on this. Like, so, you know, it. It could just happen. And. And nobody ever seen it. But this is just a big problem in our country where I have met a lot of people now, unfortunately, it's a bad club to be part of. But a lot of other mothers, you know, these guys were on probation. They had, you know, should have been put in jail for many different reasons while they were on probation, but they were not. So. And this has happened time and time again, or there's a history of DV and. And they were just never addicted to anything. Everything was always a misdemeanor about victims recanted. These survivors are just trying their best to survive in this situation. And that's a cycle. And the laws need to change. They really do.

>> Tiffanie: They gotta catch up for sure. I. I get so mad sometimes when I watch some of these stories, especially like with stalking m. And stuff like, come on. Like, this isn't healthy behaviors. And clearly it escalates, like, every single time. And strangulation, you know how personal that is? Like, you literally have, I think, how long it takes, like, three minutes, I think, to strangle somebody.

>> Jim: it could be less. It could be less, depending. So here. Here's some facts about strangulation. So just when you look at the anatomy of the neck and, you know, you could use, manual your hands or ligature through, like a belt or something like that. More commonly the hands are used. So when you look at the anatomy of your neck, which is a very vulnerable area right here on either side, running up into your brain, are your carotid arteries. They carry oxygenated blood to your brain. Along the sides here are the jugular veins. They take the deoxygenated blood back down to your body, to your heart, to your lungs.

>> Tiffanie: You pump.

>> Jim: All it takes is 4.4 pounds of pressure on my jugular veins to occlude them, to not allow that deoxygenated blood to leave my brain. As my carotids are pumping pressure up, increasing the pressure in my brain, which can cause stroke. My carotid is right here. If I was to grab them, that's about eight to nine pounds of pressure. That is it. To occlude that and to stop oxygen from any flood from reaching my brain. That's now when we start to pass out, cause seizures, hypoxia, all sorts of things. It's very little pressure. Everybody thinks it's pushing on the trachea where, you know, you breathe, it goes down into your lungs. Most times it's not the trachea that the push that, really is what starts affecting immediately. Cause that takes about 33 pounds of pressure to block off. The average male's grip strength is about 80 to 90 pounds of pressure. So keep talking. Four to eight pounds.

>> Nichole: Wow.

>> Jim: All it takes. And you'll. They've actually interviewed people who've been convicted of strangulation. And, you know, why did you do it? And they've said, because I no longer had to yell and scream at her to get her to do what I wanted. I had complete control of her with just one hand, never leaving an external mark on them. So it is very personal. It is, it is very serious. It is very dangerous.


M. M. says abusive relationships start with control and manipulation

And once they realize they get that ultimate power and control over them, they're. They have them, you know, and it's. They're. They're in fear of their lives.

>> Tiffanie: That's what it's all about, is control, Power and control.

>> Jim: And it starts, it starts subtle. It doesn't start from violence.

>> Tiffanie: Never does. I have some of the signs because at, name calling, usually that is how it starts. You know, you're stupid. Talk, about your education, how you look, you know, put you down. I mean, it's psychological. They destroy your property, they cut you off from family and friends. They accuse you of cheating when there's never been any signs, no, nothing. And usually they're the ones who are cheating. Like I've actually put together a whole checklist that I want to publish or put out one day just for people who aren't sure if what they are in is a healthy relationship.

>> Nichole: It could even be something very subtle.

>> Tiffanie: Right.

>> Nichole: Like, the gaslighting is a very big thing because it makes you think you're crazy. So it's a manipulative tactic. The first thing that typically happens and not in every relationship. Everyone is so different. But there's a lot of love bombing in the beginning when things move too quickly, when they say I love you right away, when they're giving you extravagant gifts, they're manipulating you into seeing this magical prince. Like Disney. Disney prince princess stories. Right. And very quickly that sort of fades off and they start being their true selves. But then you're like, they were so good. You've been manipulated to see somebody that was totally different.

>> Tiffanie: I always call it their representative.

>> Nichole: Yeah.

>> Tiffanie: When you first meet someone, you're not really meeting them. You give it, usually about two, three months, and the real person will start to really show themselves.

>> Jim: Yeah, there's been. There's been some stories that we've heard where they've dated. Everything's been good. They've been, like, dated through high school and after high school. Now they're like two years into the relationship and everything was fine. And they get married, and all of a sudden, boom.

>> Nichole: M. Like, yeah, marriage is a weird trigger. They're locked in now.

>> Tiffanie: Right.

>> Nichole: I got it. That's a safe time to be my real self.

>> Tiffanie: I hear that a lot on my show. It's like, everything was fine. The minute we said I do, a whole new person came out. And that's scary. Very, frightening. I mean, I've dated off Jesus cry. I've been in a lot of these situations. And, you know, that's why it's just so important. You have to realize that this person, they don't. They don't love you. That's not love. You know, when they hurt you and then they say they're sorry and they're. They're going to change. And this, like, it's. It's not going to change. They're not going to. Unless they want to go to therapy or do something completely on their own, they're not going to change. That's just who they are.

>> Nichole: Yeah. There, are batterer intervention programs for men who get, you know, they get arrested typically, and they have to go. They're forced to go into these programs. There's a very small percentage of that that works. I think we need to get to them sooner. We need to get to anybody who has or, is at risk for becoming an abuser. We need to get to them sooner. And that's where mental health comes in. When they're young and I mean there's just so much involved.

>> Jim: But I think, I think there's a lot of. Mental health is another one of those things that are, it's not discussed enough and for years it's been treated like a bad word or something that you don't talk about or somebody who has depression or anxiety, like, oh, you're a crazy person, you're on crazy meds and stuff like that. But the fact of the matter is many people supplement every day and a lot of people don't recognize that they have it. And you go through some adverse childhood experiences and all sorts of stuff and then you have all this built up trauma and these undealt with mental health issues and then all of a sudden you become an adult. And now I think it just snowballs after that. And I, I, I think it all ties together a lot.

>> Nichole: And this isn't for just, you know, underserved communities. This isn't for just, you know, people, you know, with social, you know, whatever, they're. Socioeconomic is always the word. I forget to say, this is everywhere. Everybody is, there's always something. I mean I've, I've worked in a domestic violence agency and the clientele is not just people off the street. It's not who people would picture in their mind. It could be depending on, oh, for sure.

>> Tiffanie: That was my thing. Mine was generational trauma. And so I heard the same things growing up. So when I got in a relationship with guys telling me the same thing, it doesn't trigger you. You're like, oh, this is love. And so that becomes the problem. You have to learn to break the cycle. And I said, with my son, I'm breaking it. We're not doing this. I learned to put myself in mommy timeout anytime I would get upset.


People are learning to set boundaries even with family members

So I don't do this. We've got to stop.

>> Nichole: that's the big thing is self care, just self love. Once you are at a place where you're like comfortable in your own skin and you're like, I got this, then you're not going to attract the same type of person. Right? They're going to be intimidated by your confidence and who you are now as a person. So think that's really helpful.

>> Jim: I think, I think Justin says it too. Where millennials and old, I guess, was it Gen X before them, like the older or younger of the Gen X, So closer to the millennials, that generation, there's more people from that generation that are, I guess, estranged from their parents, that don't deal with their parents because of the way they were raised.

>> Nichole: So people are learning to set boundaries, even with family members.

>> Tiffanie: Right.

>> Nichole: Because it's like, yeah, you're my mom or you're my dad, but you're not nice to me, and I'm not going to put up with it anymore. And that's really hard to do because that's your family. It is.

>> Tiffanie: But, if you know that that is a problem and that's toxic. Fortunately, you have to. Yeah. Because if not, how are you supposed to grow and love yourself if you feel like you're not loved by the people who are supposed to love you.

>> Nichole: Or they're just taking from you constantly, your energy, you know, your kindness, you know, they're going to take, take, take, and never give them a turn.

>> Tiffanie: Yeah. Yeah, I find I have that one here. Find yourself putting yourself last to make this person happy. And Gabby had wrote down for Brian saying, just, please stop crying and stop calling me names, because we're a team and I'm here with you. To me, that sounded like manipulation and gaslighting from him, because if he's crying to her, it. He's making her feel like the bad guy. Like, look what you're doing to me. So little did she know he was doing all he. The. The cycle. It's there.

>> Nichole: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And. And you know Gabby and people in that situation like her, you don't realize you're in that situation. You don't realize they're manipulating you. So understanding the dynamics of domestic violence will help. Law enforcement will help. Lawyers will help. Judges will help. hospital staff will help. EMS will help. All these people trained in the dynamics will see it right away. Because when you watch that MOAB body cam footage now. I see it, because I know now, but if you don't know that. Right. It looks. It looks all fine. Right? It looks good to that. To the untrained eye. Right? Yeah. Yeah.

>> Jim: But she was at that point, she was in crisis. She was deep in crisis at that point.

>> Tiffanie: Yes. Do you remember seeing any signs looking back now, other than that footage? Just in general?

>> Nichole: Yeah. I mean, so in hindsight, we look back and say, oh, well, first for me is the love bombing. I saw the love bombing. I didn't know that that's what that was. Right. I thought, you know, my daughter's a spoiled brat. This guy's giving her anything she wants. Like, she got a Louis Vuitton headband. And one day she came home, and I'm like, what is that? Why do you have, huh? Like, Brian bought it for me, like, this whole cutesy thing. Like, he really loves me. Look. And I'm like. I remember actually saying to him, don't buy her things. And he's like, it makes her happy. And I'm like, oh, boy, this guy's got it good. He's got it good. But I. Again, that's. That's a red flag, right? It seems so innocent, but it's not. It's not.

>> Jim: Yeah. And we just. We picked up on things after the fact, like, as a relationship, really. You know, they were together, living together, and, well, isolation.

>> Nichole: I didn't see that.

>> Jim: We didn't see that either.

>> Nichole: She moved to Florida. But, like, you know, I didn't think. Think of anything. But for me now, looking back, it's like that first Christmas that came when she was in Florida. She wasn't coming home for Christmas. I'm just gonna stay here and spend it with Brian's family. And it was like, oh, okay, okay. And, I mean, Covid was going on, so I was like, I, guess, like, it's okay. But I was so sad.


Brian's mother passed away of cancer in April of 2021

For me, like, that's the only holiday we really haven't make a big deal out of. And then the second year rolled around, and it was no Christmas again. And I'm like. And I was upset, but I didn't see it as isolation. No. He should have said, you should go home to your family. Even if he didn't want to come to, you know, New York to spend Christmas with us. Somebody who loved her would have said, you need to go see your family, you know?

>> Tiffanie: Right.

>> Nichole: Yeah. Supportive. Not.

>> Tiffanie: There's.

>> Nichole: There was no support there for her. Yeah.

>> Tiffanie: Isolation. That's definitely. They cut you off because then that way you feel like that is the only person who cares about you. And that's their.

>> Nichole: Exactly. Exactly. And we also had all four parents. Yeah.

>> Jim: all four of us making her feel bad to come up for my mom's funeral. When my mom passed away of cancer, which was April of 2021, which was just before they took their trip.

>> Tiffanie: Wow.

>> Jim: And she was trying to come up before my mom passed away, and it was. Oh, it was Covid, you know, Covid. And then she passed away, and she came up and she seemed. I. I didn't. You know, we're at a funeral, and I'm like, all right. She doesn't seem. She seems off. Like, she doesn't seem herself. I'm like, Covid's going on. You know, grandma just died. It's just a Crazy time. And I look back on it and I'm like, there was something not right with her personality. Like, she seemed like. Like a.

>> Tiffanie: Like a shell, like she was fading away.

>> Nichole: It's different.

>> Jim: It was just. It just wasn't her. But again, it was. It was funeral.

>> Nichole: Yeah. She was also growing as a young adult. She's starting to change her personality starting to change. So I didn't really think too much of it at the time. And we look back now and we're like, you know, and I. Of course I have her phone, so I was able to read text messages. So during that time, it was him telling her how horrible of a decision it was to come to New York and for his grandmother. Her grandmother's funeral. And just, you know, and. And lots of mean words, which I was like, wow, that's not a side that I saw of him. I saw Nice Brian. And there was another personality there that I did not know.

>> Tiffanie: They keep that hidden very much. Yes. They want to be known as the good guy. So when you sit and complain about them, everyone's like, what are you talking about? He seems great.

>> Nichole: Yeah. Yeah. It's that public Persona. It's, It's sometimes narcissistic, but we. I think we throw that word around too much. Not everybody's a narcissist. You know, there's different ways you can look at it. But, I mean, I. This is just my opinion only. I do think Brian was maybe on the psychopathic side. I think that there was more to his mental health than. Than we ever could have known that he maybe could have been able to get treatment for. But, you know, there's parenting in there that was not done so well, so.

>> Tiffanie: Right.

>> Nichole: Yeah.


How does this affect your parenting and relationship with your children moving forward

>> Tiffanie: I get that you guys have other children. How does this affect your parenting and relationship with them now moving forward? Like, you can't put them in a bubble.

>> Nichole: I'm sure you want. You try.

>> Jim: You try. And it's actually, we just had a, She. She was out with. With her friends last night in girls night. So we went. I took the girl. We have a son. So he's 21. And, he works two jobs. He's just. He's always working, just trying to put money away. He kind of keeps to himself about this whole thing. Closed off about it.

>> Nichole: He's a one, he's a boy and two, he's 21. He doesn't talk. He doesn't want to talk about it.

>> Tiffanie: Not tj.

>> Nichole: Tj.

>> Tiffanie: Oh, it is.

>> Nichole: Yes.

>> Tiffanie: I actually had the pleasure of meeting him, and we just Hugged and I cried.

>> Nichole: Yes. He's, he's very. So he's very emotionally mature for his age. He's a different kind of person. And he's always been more mature. An old soul. He'll. He always, you know, very intelligent. Yeah.

>> Tiffanie: Oh, I thought he was older than that. That's why when you're like, wait a minute.

>> Nichole: And he looks older too.

>> Tiffanie: So it's like, oh, he presented himself very well.

>> Jim: He's very intelligent. And then we have two daughters that. Well, Maddie just turned 16 on Friday. And then Kat, Kit Kat, our youngest one, she's 12. So last night, as I'm out Christmas shopping with them, we do, we just, we do missing persons as well. We don't just do domestic violence. So a lot of times people will give us cases. Hey, can you post these flyers? Sometimes we get a little bit more involved depending on the situation. So we're involved in this missing 14 year old out of New York, out of Long island, literally the next town over from where we live. And they believe that it's like a trafficking type thing. So here I am at, Marshall's last night talking to a 12 year old and a 16 year old having a really uncomfortable conversation about trafficking, about the Internet, about what to look out for. Because when we were kids it was stay away from the creepy white van over there.

>> Tiffanie: Right.

>> Jim: Don't go near that. Now the creepy white van is a cell phone and a computer.

>> Nichole: Yeah.

>> Jim: And so teaching them how to be smart and they want to play their games, they want to play their Roblox or Fortnites or whatever. But all those have ways for these people to infiltrate and then your social media on what if you have it and if you're putting things out there, how they can find out so much information about you and then find ways to connect with you, find your vulnerabilities, expose them. Yeah.

>> Nichole: Ah, it's not to scare kids or parents, but if you have the knowledge, there's ways you can make sure that you don't get involved in any of that. You know, like I monitor to make sure my daughter doesn't chat with anybody on social media when she's playing Roblox. Like she's only friends with her friends from school. Like there's certain people she's allowed to talk to and parents should know that. Yeah. If they're going to have that app, you have that right to monitor it.

>> Jim: These aren't conversations like we ever thought we were gonna have with our kids. Like it was the usual conversations like talk to Your son, he's a teenager.

>> Nichole: Yeah.

>> Jim: You know, it's like, I don't want to know about the girls. You handle that whole thing and like that's the things that you're. You're used to. But now it's like all these other things. And for. I think for TJ is one thing he got really close to his sister as, as they got older and he feels like he should have seen things. It's like we're adults, we didn't see it. So like you can't expect to know it at, at that age. And he feels like he was robbed of time from her. Cause they started to get so close for the girls they saw. Wow. There's this guy that loves our sister and he's awesome and he's really nice.

>> Nichole: They liked him so much.

>> Jim: They liked him so much. And how could he do such a horrible thing? And then having those so confusing.

>> Nichole: I can't imagine girl being like, oh, let's. They're so cute together and like they, we really like him. And then this horrible thing. I can't imagine what goes through their head. So I'm always just open with them. They're in therapy. Of course that's important.

>> Tiffanie: Yes.

>> Nichole: And I just always say if you ever want to talk and, and my youngest is really good. She'll be like, I had a dream about Gabby last night.


Make sure you spend time with your children first after a tragedy

It's really cute. My 15 year old, 16 now. She's kind of good with just talking to. Therapist doesn't really want to talk about it. She'll. Yeah.

>> Jim: Which is weird because she was. Her and I were like really tight. Maddie and I were like really tight. And then she became a teenager and you know, typical teenager. Like, but now slowly, like over the last year, like we've kind of connected where I'm like, hey, like you can, we can talk about certain things if you want to talk about it. Like I have some experience with this or this. By all means. It's a judge free zone. Like I'm just open to listen and I'm going to listen. And so she's opened up with, with some things, but with the advocacy work we're doing, we, we also try to include them in a way where they don't feel like they're like we're focusing all of our energy over here and there's none left for them. So we're making sure that when we're doing like things like this. She spent the day there homeschooled. So she spent the day with them, doing stuff with them. So we'll make sure that we always do something with them still to make them feel like, hey, we're all a big part of this family. We all got to work together. We're all a big team. Bad things happen. But this is what strength looks like. This is what resiliency is. This is how we can overcome these things. And I think constantly building on that is really important.

>> Tiffanie: I mean, I've seen that in other cases where, you know, the parent literally gets detached and all they can think about is the child that's gone, but they forget about the children who are still living.

>> Nichole: That's. Yeah, that's very sad because you want to make sure that they know that they're. They're loved, they know they're still here, and we need to pay attention to that. But making. Also making them a part of whatever you're doing to memorialize your. Your child that was lost. So making sure that they know that they're included and that their time is also important because they're. They're a person too. So I'm sure that it's. Everybody's journey is so different. It's. It's hard.

>> Jim: But 90% of marriages that. Where a child is lost for whatever the circumstances are, typically end in divorce. It's a really high number. And John Walsh is the one who told us that's that. And so for us, it's. We know this is really an important time for us to really be one as a family, that we all need each other and stuff. So it's.

>> Nichole: Yeah, that's. It's not a, ah, cakewalk by any means, after a tragedy to try in the logistics of all that, right, like with the family, you know, you still have normal life stuff. You still have dentist appointments. You slept. And then you're like, advocating for, you know, domestic violence and missing persons and like, we feel like we're all over the place. But it all comes down to, like, okay, now just make sure we spend time with our kids first. I, like, just this month I'm taking like, a big break. I'm like, I'm just taking it easy. I'm not doing anything crazy. No dabbling. Like, we're gonna stay with home and just hang out with our kids.

>> Jim: This month we were watching Christmas movies, different things.

>> Tiffanie: So bake some cookies.

>> Nichole: Yeah, my daughter's ready. She is a baker and she's like, we're going to Costco. We're gonna do. She has all of her cookies written down, ready to go. Love it. I'll deliver some to you, if you want.

>> Jim: Maddie is amazing. She cooked. She actually cooked dinner tonight. She's.

>> Tiffanie: Can I borrow her?

>> Jim: So she did a pan seared steak, and then she did carrots, potatoes, and brussels sprout. Like medley. Like roasted medley.

>> Tiffanie: Nice.

>> Nichole: Okay. That'd be really healthy too.

>> Jim: it was really good. She, I mean, and she did it.

>> Tiffanie: Perfectly, so I love that.


So another thing that we did talk about while we were talking is parent blaming

So another thing that we did talk about while we were talking on the phone is parent blaming. I know that gets us fired up. It is not the parent's responsibility. It is not.

>> Nichole: We cannot do that, publicly. I can tell you one of the comments that I seen way back in the beginning was, how dare you let your daughter go on a road trip at such a young age. I'm like, she's 22, right? I cannot prevent a, 22 year old adult from doing what they would like to do. Okay, so that's that. But, yeah, no, the parent blaming is absurd. and, we see it a lot in missing persons.

>> Jim: We see it all the time in missing persons, Missing autistic children. So this year alone, there's been. There was just two recently in Florida. Here there's been over 65 children with autism who have eloped, gone missing from their homes, and died in waterways. And so we work with a couple of missing persons organizations that'll get out there. They'll start making flyers and start getting that information to the areas. And then they'll go on like, social media and do like, lives where they try to get information, get updates, doing what they can to help people. And you'll see people and they don't tolerate it or go in there. You have to be this and you have to be that. And how can you do, you know, with your child, with this parent?

>> Nichole: That's always the question. Where are the parents? The child is missing.

>> Jim: First of all, first of all, you'll be asking, have you ever been in this situation? Have you ever had a child go missing? 2. Do you have a child with autism or some other special needs that requires so much attention? And something like autism that is very dynamic and is changing as they get older and they're learning new things and having to walk for five minutes in their shoes? How about a little bit of empathy and compassion before we pass judgment? Because until you've been in their shoes, you, you shouldn't, you shouldn't comment.

>> Nichole: I always say I don't wish on, the worst people out there. I don't wish a tragedy like this to happen to them. so they're Not. They don't know what it's like, so don't make a comment. It just, it drives me crazy. Social media is obsessive.

>> Tiffanie: there's time a parent can go to the bathroom and the kid goes outside. You know, you can't handcuff children to you. You still have to live your life. You still gotta cook dinner, you still have to shower and do your normal activities.

>> Jim: You can have more than one kid. And this child needs their shoes tied. And you lean down to tie their shoes and the other child was right behind you. And in the time it takes for you to tie the shoes and turn around and they're gone like that. It happens like that. Drownings. Drownings are silent. People think it's this spectacular splashing, laughing. It's silent and it's quick. So a kid can go off. And so it happens. And like, it's just like, like Nikki said, you. We never hope that anybody is in those situations. We never thought we would be in the situation we're in until you're in it. And then you get a whole different perspective on it, whole different look at it. And really it's uplift. Be empathetic, be compassionate, be supportive. It's the best thing you can do.

>> Nichole: Yeah. Because if it does unfortunately happen in your family, in your life, you want people to treat you that way. You don't want to be treated like that. So yeah, it's, there's enough, there's enough.


Self blame on your. With yourself. I know I, I have it all the time

>> Jim: Self blame on your. With yourself. I know I, I have it all the time. Like I should have seen this, I should have done that.

>> Nichole: And we're the parents, so we, we're supposed to keep them safe especially. So of course you blame yourself,

>> Jim: As, ah, a, as a dad, as a father, and I'm not getting into gender roles or anything like that, but like the things that typically instilled in you as, as a man, as the, you know, the protector or the hunter, gatherer, provider, but the protector. You have the protector. The mother's the nurturing, the raising, the caring. The father's the protector. So your job for these kids more than anything else is to protect them until they get to an age where they can blossom and go off on their own. And like for me, like, I felt like even though she was an adult adult, like I failed. Where did I fail at some point? Where did I go? Like, I should have seen this, I should have done that.

>> Tiffanie: You didn't do anything wrong.

>> Jim: And that's, that's a hard thing. And it's, it took A long time to realize.

>> Nichole: Yeah. I think all in our own way as the four just, you know, having four parents, I think is. Is a blessing for a kid. But I think we all had our own kind of self blame and in our own different ways. And, you know, a lot of people were so good about. It's never. Don't ever think it's your fault. And I, you know, I do know that. I know it's not my fault, but deep down inside, I'm mama bear and I'm like, why didn't I fix this? Why didn't I fix it?

>> Tiffanie: So, yeah, it's can't fix something that you don't see.

>> Nichole: Right.

>> Jim: Yeah. you don't know what you don't know. M. And hindsight's always 20 20. Right. Looking back on things, could have, would have, should have.

>> Nichole: Oh, yeah.

>> Tiffanie: I mean, you could do that with your whole life.

>> Jim: Yeah.

>> Nichole: oh, yeah. What if this. What if that.

>> Jim: That's always the question. Right.

>> Nichole: Where you are to now.

>> Jim: If you can go back to high school and change one thing, what would you change? Like, just one thing?

>> Tiffanie: Yeah. You couldn't pick. I wouldn't take a billion dollars to go, there's no way, like, where I am now is like, compared to where the hell I've been.

>> Nichole: And this is a process of life that we live. It's a process and we feel like I. I know I'll speak for myself. Everything happens for a reason, and I truly do believe that. And other people say, you know, bs, that's, that's. But I think it's true. I think there's a path that we're supposed to be led down. And unfortunately, there are some really negative circumstances that have to happen for things in the world to change and, like, big things, too. So I think Gabby, in her spirit, is changing lives, she's changing laws, she's changing the outcome for survivors. I mean, there's so many things. We've gotten an email from somebody saying, I wanted to end my life, but because I saw your beautiful daughter, her light inspired me to go on and I want to help people now. Like, just those kind of things are so inspiring for us to do what we are doing, and that's what keeps us going. Otherwise we'd just be in a depression.

>> Tiffanie: Oh, floor.

>> Nichole: Yes.

>> Tiffanie: No, stuff like that. I mean, it's got to make you feel good in what can feel good.


Genealogy can help identify missing people faster than traditional methods

But I mean, another thing that came out of is how many other people were found on her search.

>> Jim: A lot. Which 50 Cent commented on social media about it.

>> Nichole: Like how many people were found during the search for.

>> Jim: I think you said, this white girls.

>> Nichole: It wasn't meant to be inside.

>> Jim: It wasn't meant to be inside. It was like this white girl found more bodies than the cops, you know, in the last few weeks. Like, what are they doing out there? Or something like that. Like. But it was like.

>> Tiffanie: Well, wasn't.

>> Jim: It was a lot. and that's the over 600,000 people a year ago.

>> Nichole: Missing was amazing because there was resolution and closure for a lot. I don't like the word closure. I just mean these people found their loved ones unfortunately deceased, but they had their, their answers and that's something that so many families don't get. So.

>> Tiffanie: Oh yeah, the, the unknown, that's gotta be heart wrenching. Absolutely.

>> Jim: There are dozens and dozens of remains in every medical examiner's office across the country just sitting there. And those are the ones they found that they haven't identified.

>> Nichole: Oh my God. We could do another whole podcast.

>> Jim: Oath Firm who was at Crimecon, they're out of Texas. They just recently identified a cold case outta Hillsborough county that was like 30 plus years old.

>> Nichole: Really.

>> Jim: So their genetic genealogy. But there's so many other bodies out there that just, I mean look at Daniel Robinson. He's still.

>> Tiffanie: Genealogy, I hope. Blows everything up. like, especially if you've murdered someone, you're going down.

>> Nichole: Why connect you to family members now? You're not in the system. Somebody's in the system that's connected to you. So that's how they've been finding people.

>> Tiffanie: I know, it's amazing. Like there was a show and they had looked for 12 years for a killer. It took a genealogist 24 hours. Yeah, she figured it out.

>> Jim: They can do it in, typically they, they run about 30 days, but they can do it in as little as 24 hours. Where the traditional forms of DNA testing could take up to three years if they actually contact the family, if they identify them. The genetic genealogy's got like a 78% accuracy rate and the traditional way is like somewhere in like the 30% range.

>> Tiffanie: Crazy. But I love it.

>> Jim: I love, it's amazing.

>> Nichole: I think that it's going to go a long way and maybe people will get away with it. Like a lot of these cold cases are 30, 40 years old. So we didn't have the DNA back then.

>> Jim: They're locking people up all over the place for crimes that happened 40 years ago because they're using some of this.

>> Tiffanie: It's Crazy about, I'm here for it.

>> Jim: Justice. Justice.

>> Tiffanie: Yes. Yes. You thought that you got away with it, and here's your cousin swabbing away to find out something, and we're going to get you.

>> Jim: Yeah, they got the suspect in the Long island serial killing off of DNA off of a, pizza crust that was thrown in the garbage. You know, so. Yeah, allegedly. You know, so.

>> Tiffanie: Oh, we'll find a way. Oh.


We have to stop blaming victims or the survivors for what they're going through

So before we go, I also want to talk about what not to say to survivors, and it's stop telling people. Why didn't you leave? You wanted it. How about don't talk to me anymore if you're going to stay? Like, we need to be there for each other. We need to stop putting each other down. And you need to lend an ear because eventually people need to talk to somebody and it's. We have to stop blaming the victims or the survivors for what they're going through.

>> Nichole: Yeah.

>> Tiffanie: It's a huge problem.

>> Nichole: It's huge. I will let Jim tell you some statistics that he found out, but I will say, like, you already said it. Stop asking. Why didn't you just leave? And it's. It's not for just women. It's for any. Anybody in a situation where, even with a friendship, why did. Why are you still friends with them? Just be a safe friend. I like to say the word safe friend. Somebody that you're open, you're not judging them ever. You know, you're that friend that they can come to with anything. And you may not have all the answers, but they feel safe. And because they will, you will be the one that they come to when they really, really need help. So I like to use the word. It's like, sounds like it's for a child, but be a safe friend.

>> Jim: They are given ultimatums every day, and they know how to safely navigate the situation they're in. And there's so many other reasons, whether it's financial reason, there's pets involved, there's children involved. They're doing everything in their power to keep themselves and keep their, their children and family safe from this. This abuse. Don't give them another ultimatum. Be empathetic. It goes back to that whole respect.

>> Nichole: Yeah.

>> Jim: Be that listening ear and general. It's a society issue on how they view these things. And I've even seen it with a study that came out of Florida done with first responders. They survey them and they ask them questions. And now if you look at those questions, you're like, wow, is that really what our first responders think? And then when you look at these numbers you're like, that's probably how, that's like a microcosm for how society looks at the, in general. So some of the things that go out, go on that were in that survey where the majority of the people think if they stay in the relationship then they're responsible for the abuse themselves. Cuz they're not leaving. Yes, there was some other troubling ones that like if they don't disclose the abuse to you, there's nothing you can do that's false. If you, if they don't disclose it but you know something's going on, you can still be that ear to listen to. You can still say, hey, I'm here for you.

>> Nichole: Gently guide, guide them.

>> Jim: There's resources, don't force it on em. There's, there's other stuff too. Like secretly deep down, like in this one study was like 21% of women secretly want to be abused. Like are you kidding me?

>> Nichole: Believe that?

>> Tiffanie: No, they actually believe that to be abused. That's ridiculous.

>> Jim: It's their fault because they just won't leave it take. It takes the average, average survivor seven times before they leave. So there's like all these numbers and you're looking at them and it's, there's all of these reasons why they don't go. Be that good person, be that safe friend.

>> Nichole: Yeah. And I always, I get mad at the media because they push this narrative a lot. I don't think they do it intentionally but because again it's the societal view of what domestic violence is. It's quiet in the home situation and we don't talk about it and we're trying to like get them to flip that script a little bit. The victim blaming. And I do think they are trying. I do, I really do believe that they are trying. But we need to do a lot more media training around these cases that are being, you know, put out there. People's lives are being put out there and the, and that they always write in the blaming and sometimes they put the perpetrators up on a pedestal. Oh, this person is this, you know, this person in this community is high up community, you know, it's disgusting. It really is.

>> Jim: Yeah. We came across a great program, somebody that we're, we're partnering with and the Purple One program and it's the organization out of Pennsylvania, really small rural area like Erie, Pennsylvania and they have this Purple One program and it's community based domestic violence training like DV 101 for business owners, people in the community. And if you go through their program and you go through all the steps to learn about dv, all those signs, all the local resources, what to look for, and you go through and you pass all this training, you get like a purple dot on your business. And so that's now a safe place. So if, you are experiencing dv, but you, your husband or your boyfriend allows you to go to the bank or the grocery store like once a week, that's, that's when you're allowed to go out of the house. And that might be your window to, to get help. If you come across that purple circle, they'll have somebody inside that has this training that if you disclose, hey, I need help.

>> Tiffanie: I love that they can, they can.

>> Jim: Get you instantly connected.

>> Nichole: It gives you the tools to help somebody in a safe way. How to get them the resources they need, how to get them a safe out, when they have no idea where to go otherwise. So I think it's a great tool. And, we want to get it in every community in the nation also.

>> Jim: We, we see it as a way, because now you're, you are reaching parents potentially. So if you start training them and, and giving them like, education on it, that might shift that direction of, of bringing it to our kids too, when they start seeing how they're affected to.

>> Nichole: Want it in school.

>> Tiffanie: Right.

>> Nichole: You know, if they want to teach it at home, that's fine. But here's another way that the kid is, is understanding what's not okay, what is okay. So, yeah, it's especially because there's.

>> Tiffanie: So many different ways that people don't even think is abuse. Like, you're not allowed to wear lipstick. I'm sorry, but that's not opali. You know, there's just so many things like, you know, do they burn your clothes? Do they. There's so many things that you might not think is abuse, but it is.

>> Nichole: And with teens, it has a lot to do with electronics and apps.


Stalking through locations on your phone can be very subtle

So, you know, he checks my phone or he's texting me like a hundred times in a row. Cause I didn't answer him right away.

>> Tiffanie: Or her right away.

>> Nichole: Like, you know, abuse can, can be very subtle. And you think it's because they like you so much.

>> Jim: Stalking through locations on your phone. Yeah, it could be, Snapchat, because you, I guess you can see, you know, if you put that.

>> Nichole: Yeah.

>> Jim: your vehicle. Because now you have apps where you can look at your car, like diagnostics, and then there's GPS in it. So there's all different ways where they. Where they could track stock.

>> Nichole: Yeah.

>> Jim: And if.

>> Nichole: I mean, even if I took my location off on my. On my phone, if Jim wanted to know where I was, he can just go on to the car, like on the GM or whatever, and see where my location is. That way you may not know that as a survivor or think about that.

>> Jim: And when, like, these manufacturers do things like that, like, so if she locks her keys in her car or something like that, like, and she calls me and says I lock them in, like, I can unlock the car. Wow, great feature. But then these people are smart and they. They find these ways to be able to track them.

>> Nichole: Good.

>> Tiffanie: But then you get the people who use it for bad.

>> Jim: Yes.

>> Tiffanie: You know, it's always a bad egg that ruins it for everybody.

>> Jim: So there, There. All these. All these ways.


One of the main things that I wanted to do was start a registry

>> Nichole: Speaking of that, one of the main things that I wanted to do was start a registry, like a sex offender registry, but for, serial abusers. The problem with that is we have to worry about. The victims are getting arrested in a lot of these situations. We don't want abusers to be able to turn it around and get these. These survivors on the registry. So that's one of the things that I think I want to work on with some experts to figure out a way to create that registry in a safe way.

>> Tiffanie: Yeah, I used to think about putting trackers on them. Like, how even, like for pedophiles, but also people who do domestic violence a lot. Because that way we know where they are if they're not allowed to be by this. Because sometimes it's a piece of paper, a restraining order that means nothing.

>> Nichole: And a lot of victims were killed during that time.

>> Tiffanie: Right.

>> Nichole: Percentage is very high.

>> Jim: So I. I know we have it through Hillsboro. I know there's. I forget the program they're called. I think it's a national program where they were able to get some grant money for it. It's not the best thing in the world, but it's something where they provide a victim who's actively getting services and has an active injunction against somebody. They, are eligible to go to the sheriff's office and pick up a ring camera. So at least they have it on their house. Because oftentimes things happen and they don't have the ability to record it or have, like, proof of it. At least now that's giving them like, hey, he's got. He was at my house three times even when I wasn't here. here's the. Here's the Footage.

>> Nichole: Right.

>> Jim: So, I mean, it's not the best, but it's something. Something.

>> Nichole: Yeah. The only thing that. The only. You know, there's. There's always going to be something that maybe gets in the way. Like they don't have wifi or they don't have access to get the account to do the recording. So I think they're working with Ring to try and get more resources available for, for them. But it's a, it's a step, it's a. For sure. To help them feel safer.

>> Tiffanie: I actually have an app that just came out, it's called Safe Space. And say like you guys were talking online and then you came like weird. And so she blocks you. If you come anywhere within her facility, it's going to alert her that you are around. It's called BUPA technology. We're the only ones who have it. So it's like. And then, there's a bunch of different apps on. It's on the Imetrix social network. If then say they uninstall this one, but then they hop to another one that's still on the network. It's still going to alert you.

>> Nichole: You. How do they use. How do they. Like. Is it through, like their phone number? Like it's connected to you somehow?

>> Tiffanie: Yes. Okay. So you're pretty much giving it, you know, consent to know your location, so. But it won't do it unless you're blocked, so.

>> Nichole: Oh, okay, I gotcha.

>> Tiffanie: You have to be blocked. Other than that you're just, you know, people weird. So it has to be somebody that you are actually fearful of. And we're even going to have it set up to where if you really that scared, it will automatically call 911 for you. And then that way, if something was to happen to you, we know they were at your house at this time and then they can kind of pinpoint it.

>> Nichole: Could you send me more information on that?

>> Tiffanie: Absolutely.

>> Nichole: That sounds very. I feel like that could even be tweaked and fixed and as. As it's being used and, and grow. Yeah, I like that. Yeah.

>> Tiffanie: We're just releasing it, so we're working out all the kinks. But I am super excited about it because something's gotta change.

>> Nichole: Send me that.

>> Tiffanie: I will.


The hotline is 1-800-799-SAFE

Is there anything else that you guys wanted to add?

>> Nichole: Just, for anyone out there who may be going through a situation or knows someone to know that there's resources, know you're not alone, make that call to the hotline. Yes. Very busy. You might not get through the first Time. If you want to chat online, you might not get through right away, but keep trying because you will get to someone eventually. Or you can look just quick do a Google search. You might have a local agency that's willing to help. I know in Florida a lot of our main counties around here, our big counties have agencies. They also maybe up in the more rural areas, you might not find something close by, but so that's where the hotline comes in and it's 1-800-799-SAFE and that's the number that everybody should remember because really important number to have. They do have texting as well for younger people who don't want to make the call. They can absolutely go on and chat or text with somebody. They will, they will get right back to you. I got to visit the hotline headquarters in Austin, Texas and it was really cool. They let me sit in on a couple of calls and it was, it was amazing. They really know their stuff.

>> Jim: So that's 24, 7.

>> Tiffanie: I think I have that phone number on my website. I have a whole bunch like if you need a shelter, if you know, you need substance abuse help, if domestic violence, rape, child stuff, I mean, ah, all kind. Because you have to have a place to go.

>> Nichole: I have a very extensive hotline list if you want to go and if you want to take it and borrow it, copy it, paste it, whatever you want. I went in and like found every hotline available for everything that you possibly need.

>> Tiffanie: So if you want to check. Absolutely.

>> Nichole: Go to Gabby petitofoundation.org and we are going to be rebranding our website very soon with our education stuff and everything. So it's going to be the Gabby Petito alliance and people will see that change soon. And we're still going to be the foundation, but we're going to be concentrating on prevention education. But we'll still have all the other resources available.

>> Tiffanie: No, that's great because not only do we need prevention to like, some people know when they're in healthy versus unhealthy relationships, but people who are on their way to become the predators themselves.

>> Nichole: Yes, yes, we need more.

>> Tiffanie: We've got to nip that because a lot of times they're victims themselves and they just don't know how to work it and then they end up being a perpetrator. And yeah, we gotta stop cyber starts.

>> Nichole: We definitely do. And I totally agree that that's why with youth you're, you're getting to all of them before they become whatever they're going to become a victim or a perpetrator. And that's, that's what's important to us because we want to see those numbers go down. And it might take a couple generations, but we want to. We want to see that number decrease.

>> Jim: That's the hardest part about prevention, education. It. It can take a long time.

>> Tiffanie: The barriers you gotta go through.

>> Jim: Oftentimes people want to see the immediate result, but it might not be immediate. It might be some time, but we're gonna, we're gonna keep pushing forward, study the course and do what we can.

>> Nichole: Yeah, we might not be here when it, it seemed to work, when it's working, but then maybe our kids will be here.

>> Jim: Maybe our kids will be running it by then. Hopefully it'll be eradicated by them. We won't have it by then. Hopefully. But hopefully, hopefully, maybe they'll be the ones to close the doors on the foundation because we've stopped it completely from happening.

>> Tiffanie: I mean, you guys are still doing amazing work, so, you should be very proud. And I'm sure you've helped a lot of families and a lot of people who didn't even know they needed help when they did.

>> Nichole: I always get sad because I wish I could be. I wish I could call myself because I get emails all the time. We, we can't get to everyone where we've been just doing it as the four of us for a very long time. And, you know, there's five of us or, you know, he. Our, our one friend who helps us. He's very much like more of a silent member, but we do a lot of the work now and it's, It's a lot. It's a lot. And I feel really bad when I can't get to everyone, and I wish I could. So I want people to know, like, reach out. We try to do our best to get you to resources that you might need, but sometimes we just can't get to it. And it's, It's. It's sad. I feel sad for my, you know, for these people. And I'm sorry that we can't.

>> Jim: We spend a lot of time. We have our trusted people that we've worked with that we know are good. And so when we have something that comes up that's really complicated, we can't handle it. We. Hey, can you give us a hand with this? And we know we're. We're putting them in good hands, that they're gonna do the right thing by, by that person.


So. My phone is buzzing right now because of this missing 14 year old

So. My phone is buzzing right now because of this missing 14 year old up in New York. So I told, I told him, I'm like, hey, I'm gonna be offline for a little bit. But I was at work today. I still work a full time job. So on my lunch break, you know, looking things up and trying to help and following her, and she's like, hey, did you see that email? Or I'm gonna send you this. Take a look at it when you get a chance.

>> Nichole: So there's in between. I'm trying to homeschool my kids. So I'm like, all right, I gotta go do this assignment now. I gotta go back here, right?

>> Jim: And then the dogs are barking. You know, this is.

>> Nichole: Dogs are always barking during zoom calls.

>> Tiffanie: You saw my cat literally broke out of the bedroom. Well, I want to thank you guys so much for joining me. I don't really get too many in person interviews, so this was like amazing. Yes, I love it. So thank you so much. And I'm going to make sure I put all the information in the show notes. So anyone who wants to get a hold of you guys, it's all right there. And make sure you check out the foundation. They're doing amazing things.

>> Jim: Yeah.

>> Nichole: Thank you so much.

>> Tiffanie: Of course. Thank you.