Breaking Free from Emotional Abuse | Patrick Doyle

Patrick Doyle a bestselling author and expert in emotional abuse recovery and addiction counseling bravely shares his personal story of growing up in an abusive environment and how he broke free from the toxic beliefs rooted in his traumatic childhood.

We dive deep into:

• The hidden signs of emotional abuse
• How denial traps both abusers and survivors
• The critical role of safety and community in healing
• The power of reclaiming your self-worth

Patrick’s wisdom will inspire anyone on a journey of recovery, validation, and self-discovery. Whether you’re healing from trauma or supporting someone who is, this episode offers hope, clarity, and tools for true transformation.

How to contact:

https://www.patrickdoyle.life/

Transcript

Patrick Doyle is an expert in emotional abuse recovery and spiritual leadership

>> Tiffanie: I can personally say in my own experience that emotional abuse has been the one that cut me the deepest. This week I am talking with Patrick Doyle. He is a best selling author, a seasoned expert in emotional abuse recovery, addiction counseling, and spiritual leadership. Also spiritual abuse. Patrick, thank you so much for being here.

>> Patrick Doyle: Well, let me just say it's my pleasure. And can I just say right off the bat, I appreciate what you're doing. I know that anytime you create anything, there's a cost. And so the love and the concern and the passion that you put into it I think is really beautiful. And I'm, I'm glad for it and I'm looking forward to having a conversation, seeing what we can uncover.

>> Tiffanie: Thank you. I appreciate that.

>> Patrick Doyle: You're welcome.


You grew up in a home that had abuse, alcoholism

>> Tiffanie: It seems as if you kind of had the same path as me. You grew up in a home that had abuse, alcoholism.

>> Patrick Doyle: yes.

>> Tiffanie: And unfortunately that probably took you on your own path of, addiction and, you know, repeating what you saw.

>> Patrick Doyle: Correct, correct. I did. And you know, I, I don't think any of us can live a life that's not impacted by what we were raised in. The difference is what you do with it. So I talked to a lot of people over a lot of years and who have had majorly traumatic experiences, like me, like you. And you know, I have siblings that are still stuck in the belief structure of what my dad was saying. The crazy two war veteran, three war veteran, alcoholic who was telling us all we were terrible. If you keep that belief structure, you will behave in a way that is self destructive. It's one of my core beliefs. The avoidance of pain is the beginning of all unhealthy behavior. So when you live in a painful environment, when of the number one things we do, Tiffanie, is we, we have to develop a belief, a belief structure or a denial structure to survive the harm. So when I'm a kid and my dad's beating me, I can't be emotionally present, I can't be honest about what's happening. I have to build a structure of denial. I have to suppress, I have to disassociate whatever it is I have to do to survive that. And then I get older and guess what? I'm still doing that unhealthy struggle strategy, even though I'm not in danger because it's what, it's what I learned. Thus the avoidance of pain is the beginning of all unhealthy behavior. If you look into the difficulty, if you deal with what happened to you, instead of rationalizing, minimizing, justifying Denying, blame shifting, avoiding, using, you know, whatever. Then those, those lies of who you are, stay put. And so the reason why I'm healthy today is because I was able to work through those lies and realize that there was never anything wrong with me. I was born a, loving, caring, beautiful soul. And unfortunately, I was born into a very violent, alcoholic home. And that taught me some really horrible things. But that's not who I am. It's what I experienced. And so this is one of the things I really hope to help people with is like, yes, we all have difficulty, yes, we all have trauma. But how you work with that is more important than whether or not it happened to you.

>> Tiffanie: Oh, I love that. You cannot stay in that place. It's so unhealthy, and it's toxic to your, your body, your mind, everything.

>> Patrick Doyle: And listen, I've worked in treatment, I've treated people, and I've seen them go to their graves in the addiction, die. But the reason they died wasn't addiction. The reason they did not with it. The reason they died was denial. They denied what was happening, and that's what allowed them to destroy themselves. And so if I had one, if I could change one thing in the world, if I had the power to change one thing, what I would do is I would eliminate denial. Boom. and then the world would be a radically different place. probably more painful, but that would be productive pain rather than the pain of avoidance, which never produces anything but more pain.

>> Tiffanie: Well, right. The longer you keep pushing it to the side, the longer it's just sitting there by your side.

>> Patrick Doyle: Right.

>> Tiffanie: It's not going anywhere.

>> Patrick Doyle: Nope. And it's gonna, it's gonna, it's gonna morph. It's not gonna stay the same. That's the other lie that people think is that if I just keep it away, it'll be, it'll just, you know, it'll fade or it won't affect me. Not true. It's in the back of your head doing push ups, getting strong, ready to destroy you. And, but here's the other thing I would say. I don't think information is the main thing that changes people. I think what really changes people is safety. When someone feels safe with another human being, like for real in their, their perception, their gut, their reality, says that person's safe and they care about me. That's what allows someone to take a peek at the, at the pain. Information may lead you to the place where you need to have the safety. But without safety, I don't see people really changing. And this is one of the things that I thought was so beautiful about what I saw in AA or NA is the level of safety. There's anonymity, there's confidentiality and there's acceptance. Now it's not perfect because you have a bunch of addicts there. And I've been in situations where it wasn't that. But as a rule, people are able to start to heal because they feel safe and they feel seen. And that is something that I think is the, the core, the crux of being able to start to deal with the pain that you have. And you know, I've worked with for 30 plus years with people in a lot of pain and I, I've never seen somebody without safety make the changes.

>> Tiffanie: I can totally see that. Especially like in a group setting because once you realize you are not the only one because you feel like an outcast. So as soon as you're like, oh shit, that happened to you too. It's like an aha moment. And it's like, oh, finally I can be mean.

>> Patrick Doyle: Yeah. And by the way, you have that thought too that goes through your head. You feel insane. You feel like everybody's judging whatever it is, you know. Oh, but you see, I call, I call it the shitty committee. It's in your head and they get together, have committing meetings and they talk about you. You're not good enough, you're inadequate, you're a problem, you're stupid. And, and every committee has a chairman. And in my case, clearly the chairman was my father. Three war veteran. So look, I've learned now that, you know, God bless my dad, he was a three war veteran. The guy was so traumatized, alcohol was his way of trying not to go under. Right. I didn't know that. I'm a kid, I'm getting beat by the guy, I'm like, there's something wrong with him. But you know, I gotta, you know, years later realized, oh, trauma, war. He was in, he was In World War II, he was in Korea, he was served during Vietnam, he didn't go to war, but he was in two wars. And so you know, the lie that my dad told me, and I just, I, I know that we'll talk about later, but I just, I recently published my first book and it's doing really well. But I learned in the process, took me four years. Now granted, the material in this book I already had developed and put into a video series for my online membership program for emotional abuse. So it wasn't, I wasn't making the Material up. I just had to rewrite it from the frame of talking to a camera to talking to a page, Right? There's a different voice that has to happen. I had editorial, up.


It took me four years, Tiffany. What is the deal? Why does it take

It took me four years, Tiffanie. Now, why is that? Here's what I discovered in the process. Every time I had a deadline for my book or had something to do, it's amazing how many things I could find to do out. Other than that, I could. I mean, like, I think I need to scrub the bathroom with a toothbrush. That sounds more appealing than doing this right now. You know, I'm like. And you know, my editors and people around me like, what is. What. What is the deal? Why does it take? And so how I. I started doing a deep dive into my own soul, which I do regularly. And what I discovered was the chairman of the committee used to say to me. My dad, he used to say to me, you're stupid. You're stupid. I did not read my first book, full book, this includes school, until my mid-20s, because I believed what he said. Now, since then, I realized he's a crazy person. And, he's a liar. And I'm actually really smart. The truth is, my behavior reveals that. My accomplishments reveal that. But in the process of writing the book, I saw this. This resistance in me. And then I realized it was coming from the lie that he told me that it was so subconscious, I, couldn't see it right away. But as I. As I didn't avoid the pain as I leaned into it, what I realized was that what was holding me back is if I believe I'm stupid, I cannot write a book that just. That's not congruent. Right? So the message was, you're not. You're not. You can't write a book. You're stupid. And then as I realized, oh, that was. My dad is a lie. Boom. M. It freed me up. Book done. But that's an example of how the committee, or whatever the chairman is saying will affect you. And it's in. It can be in so many aspects of your life, which is why I really encourage people to. To document what they're actually feeling, not what they're thinking. Like, so I'm walking, I'm driving down the road, and somebody pulls in front of me, and I'm having a level 8 reaction to a level 2 event, right? I'm ready to murder somebody because they cut me off. Like, that seems a little extreme. Like, why is that? Well, that. That perceived injustice is tapping a wound that's really much Deeper. So when that wound is tapped, instead of a level two reaction, which would be normal. Oh, they cut me off. I'm, like, ready to go insane because it's touching my deepest wound. So if you think about having a wound on the outside of you, an open wound, and I took my finger and I just jabbed it in your wound, you're gonna react, and you're gonna react, and that's healthy. It would be normal if I jabbed you in and you're like, no reaction. I'm like, that's. That's a problem. So this is the same thing. On an emotional level. Things tap our wounds all the time. So think about walking around with open wounds all over, and you go through your day, and people aren't trying necessarily. Sometimes they are, and you're getting tapped by all those things, and then you think, and there's something really wrong. I need. I'm. I'm. I'm really messed up. You don't tell anybody that that thought's going through your head. And so that. That re. That reiterates this. You're inadequate. You're the problem. Which is a lie. Okay? You. You have problems, but you're not the problem. Right? So I remember a time when I was in my 20s. I'm, driving down the street, and I'm walking down the street, and you ever. You know. Do you know that old bar smell? You know what I mean? An old bar? They all have real. They all have a real similar smell. Yeah. And so my dad, when I was. My mom died when I was 10 on Christmas morning from alcoholism. Yeah. I was really happy with God over that one. But so then I'm. So all my siblings are at least 10 years or more older than me, so they were all gone, and they all left early. So here I am, 10 years old, my mom dies, and I'm with the lunatic by myself, okay. And, it got really bad. And my dad, after my mom died, just went to a deeper, deeper place. And long story short, he used to take me to this bar that he used to go to. I'm 10.


Tiffany says emotional abuse can leave scars that never heal

He would take me to the bar. You know, I'd sit there. At the end of the bar, he's. After my mom dies, you know, no conversation, no nothing. My dad would get blotto. I'm sitting there drinking coke at the bar, talking to whoever, kind of babysitting me. And then he'd get in the car, drive home and beat me. And, you know, bouncing off the curbs, you know, it's. It's not pretty. And so I tell that story because I was in that bar a lot, and that smell is an old bar, slotted alcoholic bar. It's just, you know, it's. It's exactly what you would think it would be. And, so I'm, in my 20s. I'm walking down the street, I walk by this bar that's just there. I don't know anything about it, and that smell hits me, and I instantly want to just beat the crap out of the next person I see. Now I'm thinking to myself, I mean, I didn't let anything out, but I'm like, thinking to myself, kyle, I'm just something wrong with me. I got. I need to go to anger management. I'm a lunatic. I'm like, dad, oh, no. What's going to happen? This is terrible. And then weeks later, it connected. That was something poking my wound. So then I did some therapy around that, and I talked about that, I wrote about that, and I got honest about how painful it was to go to that bar and have that happen to me. And that brought healing to that wound. Now, you poke a scar, you don't get a reaction. In fact, the scar gives me strength. Like, yeah, I know that happened, and I survived it. And I'm better off. And I'm a more compassionate, more caring individual because of that. So the healing turns us into. Our superpower is care. And you display it by doing the podcast and, having all these people on. And you come from a really painful place, and yet you're not staying there. You, you're, you're, you're, you're. You're putting the hand out to all these other people. And in a podcast situation or a, book situation, we don't have any idea how many people it touches. But it does, it has, it does. It has its way. And so that's really what I want to help people do, is heal. Not. Not band aid. And when we're talking about emotional abuse, the problem with emotional abuse is it's so much nuance. How do you describe to someone that you're dying the death of a thousand cuts when you look totally normal and you're walking around with your pretty face on and you're smiling and you're acting like everything's fine, even though you're dying because you don't have enough safety to be honest. So this is why I'm so passionate about it and why I wrote the book and why I have the program. Because if someone doesn't understand, do not talk to them. And I've been on both sides. I've been the guy that didn't understand, I've been the guy that gave bad advice. I, I, I got aware of all this because of my own experience and because of my own failure. I didn't get this way because I read a book. I mean, I read a lot of books. But the point is, I came from a place of experience and failure in my own life, in my own approach to these things and my own experience. I was in an abusive marriage for years and I lied about it and I covered, it up and I denied it and I rationalized it and I spiritualized it to the moon and back and spent a bunch of years of my life being harmed and thinking it was okay. And every single person I've ever dealt with, Tiffanie, who's in an emotionally abusive relationship, it's just like my childhood trauma. You have to build a system of denial. I know you know this. You have to build a system of denial to survive it. And so once you have the epiphany, that begins the hard work of starting to dismantle the denial. And as we dismantle the denial, our anger goes up. And as our anger goes up, which is actually a healthy thing, not, not a bad thing, we get pushed into action. And that action is what will take us from a place of harm to a place of safety. But you can't get there. You can never get to a place of safety through avoidance. Doesn't work. I tried it and I got the stars to prove.

>> Tiffanie: Yeah, right, absolutely. You have to face it head on. You have to understand why you are the way you are. And it took me into my 30s to realize why, you know, why I ended up in abusive relationships, why I thought the bad love was love that's not even love.

>> Patrick Doyle: Good love.

>> Tiffanie: Right. You know, and unfortunately, I'm a product of generational trauma, so that was done to my parent, who then didn't realize it, who did it to me. So it's, it's a whole thing. And like my mind was blown when I actually came to this realization, like, oh my gosh, like, they're not the devil, There's a reason for the madness.

>> Patrick Doyle: Yes, always.

>> Patrick Doyle: But it does not give them any excuse. So I hear people say all the time, well, I had a bad childhood and that's why I do that. I'm like, I had a bad childhood, but I don't do that. You, you don't get a pass because you have pain. In fact, I would say it's the exact opposite. Because I experienced all this pain and horror, I would never in a million years want to put that on somebody else. Why would you think that'd be the way to go? Well, because you have massive denial and you're, you're not being, you're not being honest about the impact of your behavior. You're not being honest about the impact of the, what happened. The denial is, is the core problem. We label it all kinds of other things. But you, I say this a lot, but the denial of someone who's doing the abuse is very different than the denial of someone who's surviving it. I've had a lot of women get confused on this point because, well, maybe I'm a narcissist because I have denial. Like, no, if you had control, you would have a loving, caring, mutual relationship. But because you're with a lunatic who doesn't have any, care, that all they have is self centeredness. And their denial is industrial strength to the point where they believe whatever they think. It doesn't matter the facts, they believe it. And that denial is the core of what allows their abuse.


I talk about giving CPR to the dead guy in my book

So I, in my book, I have a, a part in there where I talk about giving CPR to the dead guy. So if you see a movie and you know, the family member has a heart attack and then one of the family members is get him cpr, it's obvious that they're dead and they're not coming back. And they're still going, come on, man. You know, and then everybody's like, bro, you know, still out. So finally they stop. But while they're giving CPR after the person's dead, why are they doing it? They're not doing it to help the person. They're doing it because they don't want to face the death. And I see this with a lot of people. They're giving CPR to the relationship, they're pretzelizing themselves, they're doing all this stuff and they're reading all these books and they're getting all this information and they're focused on. And you can't, no matter how much CPR you give to a dead guy, it doesn't change the outcome. So then women coming to me and they're like, now you give them cpr. If it won't work, you, you're better at it than me probably because you know the person, but you know, it was made to hear from somebody straight and you can tell them straight and like, no, their denial is so good. You cannot penetrate that. The only hope you have of safety is to bounder that person, because they're not going to change and they don't care, which is hard for somebody like you to. For somebody like me who's a loving, caring, nurturing soul, we want what's best for people. We. It's unfathomable. they don't care. How is that possible? We just can't even think of it that way. But they don't. And I talk to people all the time. They get, 20, 30, 40, 15 years of experience with behavior that's so consistent. Like, it's not an opinion, it's a revelation of their behavior that they don't care. And. And once you start to have that revelation, like you said, Tiffanie, that's when stuff starts to get really difficult. And that's why I built the online program, because what I learned was women don't have a safe place as a rule. Most of the women that go through this do it mostly on their own. So I wanted to create a place that had the information, but more importantly, it had a forum where they could say whatever they say, however they say it. And there's no judgment. There's no fixing you. We're just going to be with you in it. And you. And then you've got people who understand, who aren't going to try to talk you out of your feelings. and you can just let yourself be. And that is more important than all the information I have on there, you know, and the information is good, and I understand that, but. And then I have a whole bunch of Q&As on there, which I think are brilliant because. Not brilliant because of me, but they're brilliant because women are saying things that every other woman has thought or heard. And so then the questions are answered, but it's in context. Do you know what I mean? Because everyone's circumstance has a very real context. And I can relate to that context, or I can relate to that context, or I can't relate to that one, but I can that one. And so when it's in context, and this is the problem with abuse, abusers will treat you minus the context. So let's just say they've been harming you for 10 years, right? And then you're like, hey, that really hurt me. They're like, why? And you're having a level 8 reaction because they been doing it for 10 years. And you're like, I'm gonna. But they're like, what? It's just one time. What are you talking about. Because they're clueless about the context. And then that's what makes women start to feel crazy. Like, maybe, maybe, maybe I'm. And then, you know, years of gaslighting, you know, getting you to doubt your perceptions. and that's. That's why women's bodies are starting to break down, because they're on, like, high alert 24. 7. They're in this situation, fight or flight, all the time because they live in danger emotionally, but no one can see it if they walked into my office with a black eye. Okay, got it. But when someone's being, manipulated and it's. There's nuance. And the person that's doing it has a good reputation and people like them, and they're very good at making other people feel good. And they can manipulate anybody and they can look good with anybody because they don't care what they say. They can lie about anything. It doesn't bother them. They don't lose any sleep about destroying you. And as, somebody who cares, we. It's. It's like, how can you. It's hard to fathom someone could be like that, Particularly somebody we thought we loved or we thought loved us.

>> Tiffanie: Right. I can't tell you how many times I was told I was crazy. Oh, my God. And I was right. Every damn time. Every damn time I'm like, I am not crazy. Maybe sometimes, but. No, crazy.

>> Patrick Doyle: Well, here's the other thing. You know. You know, if somebody, like, you know, they poke, poke, poke, poke, poke, poke, poke, poke. In, like, five years later, I just go, who's gonna. What are people gonna know that, you hit them? Yeah. No one's gonna think about the fact that they under the table, poked me for 10 years. And see, this is why somebody has to understand this, because otherwise we focus on the wrong thing, just like you said. Well, and in my. In my world, you know, I come from a. I work with, mostly women in faith communities, and I used to be a pastor, and I was the guy that would give you bad advice. Okay. Because there are theological reasons why pastors push women back into the marriage. They believe that marriage is sacred. They believe that men are more valuable than women.

>> Tiffanie: I'm glad that you admitted that.


Tiffany was in an emotionally abusive relationship while on Christian radio and TV

>> Patrick Doyle: Yes, well, I would have preached it. women can't be in leadership. They were deceived first, Adam. All blah, blah, blah. And I'm saying that as somebody who founded a church, pastored it, preached it. I was on the radio and TV for years. Christian radio and tv. And what woke Me up was seeing the harm. And here's the funny thing, Tiffanie. I was in an emotionally abusive relationship while I was on the radio and TV being an expert on it. I think that's. Yeah. How do you think I became an expert on it? I denied it. I lived it. And then when I finally started to wake up and it was, it was the road out was a gauntlet. The amount of judgment and stuff that I experienced because I was, you know, a public figure and I was the Christian counselor and the pastor and you get a divorce, that's not okay. But you know, when people didn't understand, I only had myself to blame because I covered it up. I made it seem like it was this great thing. I didn't tell anybody that I was, you know, wanting to leave all the time. You know, I didn't tell him what was happening in my house with my kids and the arguments. And I didn't say any of that. I denied it. So having someone who understands that nuance, and particularly in a spiritual sense, is radically important because I have seen so many women, just like you said, go get help. And let's, let's just go back a second. What does it take for a woman in an emotionally abusive relationship to get to a place where she's going to ask for help?

>> Tiffanie: I would say you have to finally recognize what you're in. You, you have to get out of that denial.

>> Patrick Doyle: Yes, but.

>> Tiffanie: Yes, you also need validation, horse.

>> Patrick Doyle: Yes. But either way, the level of courage and risk that it is for that woman to say those words out loud is like, we had this window of opportunity and when they say them, we shut them down and tell them to go back or you're crazy or don't think about. I mean like one of the worst ones I heard from a pastor to one of my clients was, I mean, this man had put this woman in the hospital twice. And the pastor said, well, what's the worst thing? He could kill you and you go to heaven.

>> Tiffanie: Stop it right now.

>> Patrick Doyle: I'm not kidding. This is, this is an, actual events. And I'm like, wow, there's something seriously wrong here. Right? And that's an extreme example. But all the time I hear this. Well, you know, if you cook them better meals and you have more sex with them and you're nicer, he'll, he'll, he'll change.

>> Tiffanie: Now I want to hit somebody.

>> Patrick Doyle: Join my club, will you? And listen, I'm saying that as the guy that used to say that, so I'm not I don't, I don't even, I don't have any self righteousness here. I'm, I'm, I'm broken by the fact, which is also why I'm passionate about the healing and why I wrote the book and why I have the program. Because I did the harm and I know how harmful it is for a woman who trusts their spiritual leader to hear that in their gut is saying. But because the spiritual leader says it, they suppress their gut and they go back and they get reharmed and reharmed and rearmed. And now how much more power does the abuser have?

>> Tiffanie: A lot.

>> Patrick Doyle: your whole faith community is against you. Your pastor's against you. Can't say anything. And I've seen women spend decades of their lives stuck in that. And that's one of the things I'm m hoping to uncover, which is why I'm so grateful to be here, me talking about it. I, I was so happy when the book is done because I'm like, finally I can stop writing and start talking about it. Can talk about the issues. We can put this out into the world and we can provide some hope. And listen, my book's called An Impact of Emotion. Be a guide to clarity and healing. You can get healing. It's not easy, but nothing worth keeping usually ever is.

>> Tiffanie: That's what they say.

>> Patrick Doyle: Yeah. And m. And I got experience with that. So, you know, I, in my book I talk about it because I have so much experience. I'm like, if you go to your pastor and he doesn't believe you, do not talk to him or her. Do, not be vulnerable. Do not do it because all they're going to do is beat you with scripture, with platitudes, with, with guilt and shame. Because you, you have to save the marriage and no matter what. And you have to, if you're just nicer. There's this, there's this theology that says that you know by your winsome behavior you will win him over. It's a scriptural mandate that's twisted into all kinds of weird stuff. But the idea is because men are more valuable than women and women are there to serve their husbands, that if they do all these things right, then their husband will change, and if they don't, their husband's justified in his behavior.

>> Tiffanie: What kind of religion is that?

>> Patrick Doyle: It's Christian. Well, how mainstream Christianity was that?

>> Tiffanie: I said, well, hail, tell somebody to live in such a horrible environment because God, like, wants them to.

>> Patrick Doyle: Yeah, it's going to glorify God it's going to glorify God. You didn't know this, Tiffanie?

>> Tiffanie: I don't like that. God.

>> Patrick Doyle: Right. And, and if that's the love of God, then we have to start questioning that. And it was, it was, it was a full blown Exodus existential crisis for me because I built my whole life on this.

>> Tiffanie: I, can only imagine your aha m moment when you're like, oh, what have I been doing?

>> Patrick Doyle: I wish it was one, because it's been like a hundred, you know, like, oh, that too. Oh no, that too. Oh no. I mean, over time, because mercifully I didn't see it all at once. I don't think I would have been able to handle it.


I redefine codependency as what I call external dependence

But so, you know, abuse in the church is rampant. And I've said this before, and I say it in the book, but I believe this because of the theological belief that men are more valuable than women. And women are responsible for the outcome of men emotionally and spiritually. In a sense, that has created a factory of narcissistic men in the church and a factory of codependent women. Now, in my book, I redefine codependency because I, that term is so packed with so many things. I, I, it makes me nervous because women are like, well, I'm codependent. I'm like, you're trying not to die. You're not codependent. You weren't codependent. You were trying not to die. There's a difference. Right? And the term codependent actually originated in the drug and alcohol world. You know, you have a dependent individual, an addict. And every addict has what they call a codependent, someone who helps them maintain their addiction because they're loving them, they're giving them money, they're buying their booze, whatever. So that's what codependent originally meant. Now it's gotten all kinds of stuff splattered into it. So I redefine it in my book as what I call external dependence. So your value as an individual is coming from something external. If he's okay, I'm valuable. No, we start with, you were born valuable. End of story. You don't have to go anywhere. You don't have to do anything. You have it because you are. And what we have to do is, start living out of that value, which will decrease our dependence on external things. When we try to get our value from the external world, we're on a treadmill because the world's so consistent and not fickle, which is why it, is maddening to Try to get your value from making other people happy or making people like you or whatever it is. So I, talk about as external dependence. My value is dependent on something external? No, your value is intrinsic, period. Okay, so in a theological or a spiritual term, there's lots of theologies that say your values dependent on what you believe. Your value is depending on what you wear, what you don't wear, how many times you go to church, whether God likes you, whether God's going to bless you. There's all these criteria. Do you know how many denominations of Christianity there are?

>> Tiffanie: Too many.

>> Patrick Doyle: Take a guess.

>> Tiffanie: 30.

>> Patrick Doyle: Okay, try, try this number. The, the conservative estimates are 30,000. Some estimates are 40,000. Okay, so think about this for a second. All the Christian churches are saying the same thing. We have the truth of God from the bible. Well, at 30,000, I don't think that's possible. If you have 30,000 versions of that, how is, which one's true? And they're all saying it, theirs is the true one. And I've done this, and I've been through multiple major theological belief structures in my lifetime and I've read the theology books and I've studied the Bible and I've, you know, I'm, I'm deeply aware of the Bible and all the theology and I, I speak the language and I understand all that, which is why I know it's not true. You can't say that. 30,000, you might have 30,000 fractals of truth, but you don't have the truth.


One of my greatest concerns is people being certain about something

And this is the other thing that makes me concerned is one of my greatest concerns is, people being certain about something. There's no evidence that you can be certain of that part. Yeah, yeah. So let's take it for example. Let's just take, the age of the earth, seven day creation, hundreds of millions of years. Truth is the greatest theologian and the greatest scientist, neither one of them knows. It's an absolute mystery. We have speculation, we have some ideas, but no one knows. So when you start saying you're certain about this, I'm like, you're not telling the truth. Right. So then you take things like, I don't know, departing the Red Sea. What's the evidence? So what, what we say in the church is, well, you have to believe it by faith. Well, what is that? Well, you just trust God that it's true. You don't, it doesn't matter. If there's evidence. This, that gets start, that starts to get kind of, you can go a lot of directions with that.

>> Tiffanie: Oh, for sure. I've been trying to turn my water into wine for a long time. It's not Oregon.

>> Patrick Doyle: Well, here in Oregon we have a lot of winemakers that are really good at it. They turn a lot of water into wine all the time. it's really good. But that's, that's my point. Right. So then you take something like abuse and a woman goes to a spiritual.

>> Tiffanie: There's a lot of those in church too. Pedophiles. That's overlooked too.

>> Patrick Doyle: You know why? No.

>> Tiffanie: I would love to.

>> Patrick Doyle: I can tell you why. It's. It, so if I believe by faith in something I cannot prove, how hard would it need to be for me to believe that that person's actually who they say they are instead of paying attention to the evidence? It's exactly the same thing. I'm believing God is something that I have no evidence for. So why wouldn't I believe that about that pedophile. And pedophiles understand that in church environments you're trusted without proof. So as a Christian, if they say they're a Christian, then you're like, oh, you're my brother, we trust you. Trust is embedded. And I've learned over time that, look, I talk about my book, I got two, two rules for living. Rule number one, no crazy allowed. Rule number two, I decide what's crazy.

>> Tiffanie: I like that.

>> Patrick Doyle: Right. That is not a rule that the church follows. They, they give trust without verification. And that's why pedophiles do well there. And I cannot tell you, Tiffanie, how many pastoral situations I've been a part of. As a guy who is been national in my working with people, pastors who have. I can tell you the stories and I can tell you the pastor's names who've done this. They have convicted imprisoned pedophiles who harmed their own children. And then when they're released, they insist that the wife take them back and forgive them. And there's been zero repentance on the pedophiles part. And the reason why is. And the reason why is because God wants the marriage to be sacred and there's no reason to break it. And I'm like, this is full blown insanity. And I'm not talking about this was 10 years ago. I mean, it was 10 years ago, but it's also been more recent. I've got clients right now that were forced into marriages with pedophiles. And every. They were. One guy was convicted and imprisoned and then got out. And they're like, he's Better based on what? And so, you know, and low. okay, let's not talk about the Catholic situation. Yeah. Where they have a system of abuse and they justify it with spiritual things and scripture and dogma and whatever. So, okay, look, if you're a Catholic, fine, but you can be a Catholic. But you got to know that your organization is criminal, and they don't care that people are being harmed based on their behavior. It's not my opinion. That's just a fact. That. That. And so you can live in that fact or you can deny it. It's up to you. But that doesn't change the fact. There's evidence galore. And that's just what people dig and dig and digging. If we. If we had the ability to dig farther, it would be cosmically overwhelming the amount of harm that's taken place.

>> Tiffanie: It's just so sad because that's where people go for Savior, you know, to pray to get their answers that they're so hardly seeking. And you just get pain in return.

>> Patrick Doyle: Yes. Well, it's worse than that because you get pain, but you're the problem. See, if you would have. Just do it right, God would bless you. But you're not doing it right, and that's why it's not working out. You need to pray more, you need to go to more church, you need to give more money, you need to serve more you.


Tiffany: Every denomination creates problem by solving it in their own ways

And so talk about a shame frame, you know, so when I talk about intrinsic value, you know, when you're born, there's no kid that's born feeling devalued. That's something we learn from the circumstances around us. Right?

>> Tiffanie: 100.

>> Patrick Doyle: And then kids, you know, go to church. And what's. What's the, What's the gospel? You're a sinner, and God's against you unless you believe in these things, unless you do things. So every denomination creates the problem. You're a sinner, God's upset with you, and then they solve it in their own ways. So the Pentecostals, you know, you got to speak in tongues. Presbyterians, you know, you got to be water b. sprinkle baptized. And you get, you know, you got to know your old dead field, dead, dead authors and, you know, the Baptist, you got to be submersed. And then, you know, everyone's solving. Creating problem and solving it in some nuance different. That's why there's 30,000 denominations. They're all splitting hairs over how we solve the problem. And you can't go to a Pentecostal church and be accepted. If you're a Presbyterian, they're like suspicious of you because you don't have the right theology there. You're both Christians and they wouldn't kick you out of the service, but they're not going to let you into leadership until you sign the belief statement. So in essence, what we have is compliance to belief structure, not intimacy. And so when, when there's real, real harm and you don't comply, then they double down on the harm to you because not only are, you not doing it right and God's against you, but now you're going to be extricate, extra, excommunicated because you're not following along, you're not complying. And I've seen it way more than I want to say. I have clients at this very moment. That is happening too. And so you got a guy who's abusing them and then they keep the church, the woman's expelled and they have no one and they're the victim. Talk about victim blaming. And I tell you, it's, it's, it. Like you said, I, I understand why guys do it. I understand why pastors do it because I did it. I understand the theology, I understand the wonky thinking, and I understand all that. And I don't have any compassion for that. I don't have. You don't get no excuse. So both are true. and it's really concerning to me how many women are being so harmed in that way. And then the church, you know, wants to pray for you, but it's really more about praying on you, not for you.

>> Tiffanie: And so I had a guest on my show and she was actually her preacher did sexually abuse her. And she wrote a book that says, let me pray upon you. And it was spelled P R E U. I, and I was just like, that is brilliant.

>> Patrick Doyle: It is. And it, it, you know, unfortunately it happens more than I'd like to say. And, you know, I guess I'll just go all the way out on the limb and if somebody saws it off, I guess I'll fall. But, so think about this just from a psychological perspective for a second, Tiffanie. If I believe in whatever through faith, I believe that God exists. I believe that the Red Sea parting is real. I believe that, you know, six day create, seven, six day creation. I believe all that with no evidence, right? No evidence. Doesn't that set me up to believe a lot of things without evidence? Therefore my base, my base belief structure, about the world is based on falsity. So how easy would it be for me to continue that in other aspects of my life? Like I can justify molesting the church person as a pastor because I already believe in stuff that's not real. And I, and I'm convinced of it and I'm compelling to other people to get them to believe it. Right. Do you know who Ravi Zacharias was?

>> Tiffanie: No.

>> Patrick Doyle: Ravi Zacharias was the top, you know, head and shoulders above everyone else. he was an evangelist and he was also somebody who defended the Christian faith. He was very huge and had a huge, reputation as this defender of the faith. And he's very brilliant. He's one of the, he's, he's a gifted speaker. I mean, this guy was great at talking. He was so good. And I was, I read his books, I listened to him on the radio. I, I was a fan. After he died, it comes out that Ravi was not exactly who we thought he was. he had, he owned two massage parlors secretly. He had molested and had sexual interactions with lots of women. And he was, you know, threatening them with suicide and paying them off money and legal action. This is all documented. It's. I'm not making this up, this document. You can look into it even more. Now. How can somebody who's like the most eloquent defender of the faith and so committed be so duplicitous?

>> Tiffanie: Because they know they can get away with it.

>> Patrick Doyle: No, because the thing they believe in isn't real. So they're already, they've already built a denial structure, faith, so they can believe these things that don't have evidence. So in the world of denial, that's, that's, that's two sides of the same coin. Now I can have denial about the fact that I'm harming you, but I can justify it and spiritualize it just like I do every day on stage. And this is why you, if you're in the Christian world, there's just there. I can give you a long, long list of guys who are massively duplicitous. But they're so spiritual. Well, it seems like duplicity and spirituality do not mix.

>> Tiffanie: Yeah, I never thought of it that way. So, I mean, that makes so much sense. I mean, there's no proof that anything you're saying is true. So why not just keep living the untrue life, do what you want.

>> Patrick Doyle: Well. And the success of it further deludes you to its working. They all believe me.


Abuse and the church, as a rule, don't mix

They, they think it's right. They like me, so. And again, abuse and the church, as a rule, don't work, don't mix. Okay. In terms of you getting help at church. Just, my book talks about that plainly. If you have a church where. And there have been, and I've been a part of situations where churches were magnificent and the pastors were wonderful and they did a great job. That's like 2%. So be careful out there. And, you know,


One of the signs that you're in a bad relationship is you feel crazy

One of the things I hear most often, and I heard you say this before, one of the number one signs, I think, for a woman that you're in a bad relationship is you feel crazy. You can't. And the reason why is if you're with someone who's in a lot of denial, they're never going to own anything. And what you're always trying to do is get some sort of resolution. Please, let's just resolve this. And no, you can't. Because round and round you go. Or blame, shift, rationalize, minimize, justify, gaslight, spiritualize, blah, blah, blah, blah. And you're like. You're like trying to live in reality. And they're in some sort of real delusional world. They don't lose sleep. They're just like, why are you so crazy? Why are you so upset? Why are you. Why can't you just be. Get over it. What was your problem? You. You, you, you, you, you, you. I call, I say this, I say this. They are responsibility. Teflon, and you are responsibility. Velcro. Clips off of them, sticks to you, Slips off of them, sticks to you. And after a while, it starts to make you think that you're the problem. And particularly when. Think about that. That couple. The husband goes to church and he's loved. He's an elder. He's a leader. He's a worship leader. He's a whatever. He's. Everybody respects him. He serves on the deacon board, he parks the cars, whatever. And you're, like saying negative things about him. You shouldn't do that. You shouldn't talk negative about your husband. I'm not talking negative. He's mean. Oh, well, you can't say that, you know, so think about being in that bind where you. You're in a community that thinks you're the problem. If you say anything that's not supportive or loving, quote unquote, right, you don't even have the option. So now you look doubly crazy. And what does that do? It makes. It makes the woman think, well, see, God thinks I'm crazy and they think I'm. I'm actually crazy.

>> Tiffanie: No, tell you. It is mentally exhausting.

>> Patrick Doyle: Oh, my God. Can I relate to that? Yeah, I remember. I remember laying in my bed next to my ex, whispering under my breath, you got to get me out of here. You got. You've got to do something. I was just so at the end of my rope. I couldn't. I just know where else to turn. I was just so depressed and was a walking shell of myself. But if you to see me in public or on the TV or on the podium, my denial was Olympic level. And I think that's why I love to work with women, because I understand. I understand what, I'm. And you know, a lot of women are kind of weirded out that I'm a man in the space. In a way, you're a dude, and that's who hurt me. So I get that. But, you know, it doesn't take long for some. Most women that I work with are so perceptive, they just don't trust it.


Trust your gut. Your brain is not. And that's the thing I want to restore, is people trusting their instincts

And that's the thing I want to restore, is people trusting their instincts. I talk about it at LinkedIn, my book, Trust your gut. Your gut is going to give you the information that's going to get you free. Your brain is not. Your brain is. The problem. Your instincts, though, the problem with your instincts is they give you information you can't prove. And when you're in an abusive relationship, you gotta prove everything. And then you're an abusive relationship in a spiritual community, you gotta have a Bible verse for it. You can't just trust your instincts. And I'm, I, I teach in my book, like, how to do that and what to do, because I think that's the only way you get free. It's not because you figure it out. You. Your gut asks you to take a step with no information. I just know it's wrong. So I'm going to take this step. I don't have any proof. I'm just. I'm jumping off a cliff. That's what it feels like. And that's how you get to healing. It's not because you see the whole plan ahead of you. That's. That's a dream. That's a. That's a. That's that's utopia. But it doesn't exist, right? In terms of the healing.

>> Tiffanie: You got to take those steps. You'll get there, but you gotta take at least the first step. Gotta get going.


Patrick says he ended up in two separate abusive relationships

>> Patrick Doyle: How did, how did you get out?

>> Tiffanie: I had enough. I had enough of being told I was crazy. I had enough of the lies, the manipulation. I was isolated I ended up in two separate abusive relationships. One of them, he wouldn't let me work. The other one didn't want me to go out. Didn't want me to have friends, didn't. Didn't want me to even be with, like, my mom, my family. And everything was just wrong. He told me almost every day I was ugly, fat and gross. so you do start to believe it. And you're like, you know, nobody's going to want you. Look at you. Look at your arm. You're flabby. And look at this and look at that. And it's flying people down. I couldn't do it anymore. It was mentally exhausting. Not to mention everything that came out of his mouth was a lie. And so all you ever want to do is go through the phone. But then when you go through the phone, it's your fault because if you go looking for something, you're gonna find it.

>> Patrick Doyle: Yeah.

>> Tiffanie: And it's like, well, how about you just keep it in your pants? How about that?

>> Patrick Doyle: Like, yeah, right, Right. Yeah. The exhausted. Exhausted. Feeling crazy. Being overwhelmed, tired. So if I die, fine. But I can't do this, right? Yeah, I, I've heard this story is my story too. I was just, I got to a point where to me it didn't matter. What if I lose everything? At least I won't die. Because the way we're going, I'm not going to be able to keep living. I don't, I don't. I can't. And, and it's funny. When I told my, my, I have two boys, and when I told them I was divorcing their mom, my oldest son looked me in the eye and he said, dad, we should have done this a long time ago. and I was like, I thought I was staying for you. You know, just, that's just another level of the denial. I couldn't, I, I, I mean, I did see it, but I denied it. I saw the harm. I, of course I did. I'm, I'm aware. But I had to rationalize it until, like you said, you get to that point where, and to me, that level of pain is immersive because it's what gets us to move. And, you know, that movement has been so beneficial to me.

>> Tiffanie: Me too. Took me about seven years to get my confidence back, my self worth like that. It's not a, it's not around the corner. It's not easy. It's a long journey and it'll never be done.

>> Patrick Doyle: Well, I'm so glad I'm so glad you said that because, you know, a lot of things in our culture, we're sold the three step plan. If you do these three things, you get this result and you just suit. And it's like this, either or this quick fix will. Like, this is a very, it's, it's a long process. But I always say this. The pain of that change is productive. The pain of survival is not. So if you're going to be in pain, I might as well be doing something productive. And then when you do the pain of change, what happens is your pain level goes down with survival, your pain level just keeps going up. And so pain is our friend in that way. And I've never talked to somebody who changed because they were comfortable. No, that doesn't exist, contrary to what we're selling people.

>> Tiffanie: Right. So your, your facility or it's an online community, correct?

>> Patrick Doyle: It's an online community, yeah. If you want to learn about. Yes, but if you want to learn about it, you go to my website, Patrick Doyle Life, and you can find out all you need to know, sign up, you know, get information, whatever. and you know, I'm very fortunate. I've. I have changed so much because of the vulnerability and the wisdom of those women. I, I am moved to tears on the regular with them, sharing their story. The. You know what? That is just one community of one badass after another. That what it takes, what it takes for them to fight the spiritual community, to overcome the abuse, to take care of their children, to work, maybe to all this. I mean, like, I don't. It's like I'm. I'm always like, just odd. Like it's amazing what they're able to accomplish, and they're accomplishing it while being shot at. I, I say, I say it like this to them a lot of times, like you're doing an Olympic gold medal gymnastics routine, but you're blindfolded and you're being shot at and you're nailing it. So what's going to happen when you take the blindfold off? We stop shooting at you. Your competence, your ability, your character, your value has never been in question. You've always been a radically awesome person. It's just you've been told by some lunatic that that's not true.


Having a supportive community in the detox process is imperative

So once you get away from. I, talk about in the book, once you get away from the toxic person, you go through what I call detox, just like somebody would go off on heroin, because it affects you at a core, I would say, cellular level. It gets way down in you. So the detox process is. It takes time. It doesn't just come out. You might have a. You might have initial relief. And then it's like all of a sudden, you're like, well, who am I and what am I supposed to do? And did I do the right thing? And what about this and what about that? And I don't know, because I don't know. so having a supportive community in that process is imperative, and it shortens the process. When you're by yourself and alone, it just takes longer. People do it, and God bless them. I'm. I'm glad they do it. But if you have a supportive community, it does shorten the process. and it keeps you from feeling insane. You hear someone else say exactly what you were thinking. You're like, ah.

>> Tiffanie: Ah.

>> Patrick Doyle: Oh, my God. Because you're never gonna hear that from the abuser.

>> Tiffanie: Hello. If that's you, your feelings, your thoughts.

>> Patrick Doyle: Yes. And that validation. That validation plus the care that I talked about is the thing that makes this happen. It's. It's. It's not just information, because 99.9 of most people I've dealt with who have been abused already knew. It was in their instinct, in their spirit, in their gut. Just their mind was on fire with all the lies from the lunatic they're living with and maybe the people around them. And I can't tell you how many people I've seen that. Whose family jump on the bandwagon with the lunatic m. And it's only because they're willing to lie incessantly and you're not. Yeah, it's. It's. Emotional abuse is far worse than physical abuse, in my opinion.

>> Tiffanie: because they cut deep. They cut very.

>> Patrick Doyle: They do. And they. Because they alter your perception of who you are. And that's the thing. This is another thing. I have a whole chapter in this, where living out of your intrinsic value, which is what they take from you. And you just said, you know, I've spent seven years getting back to that place where there's nothing wrong with me. I'm actually a wonderfully beautiful, loving soul. And I want people around me who can see that. I don't want to go crazy allowed. And I get to decide what's crazy.

>> Tiffanie: I always say I'm a good kind of crazy.

>> Patrick Doyle: You see, I don't think that's true. I think you're a beautiful soul. You've done so much. You. You should be angry at the world, but instead you're pouring light into it. More of you in the world would make the world a better place. Right.

>> Tiffanie: Thank you.

>> Patrick Doyle: yeah. The tragedy is the lunatic that you are with or the lunatics you're with, parents, exes, they, they are too broken to see that. They're too broken to respond to that. They're too broken to appreciate that instead of them lying to you and telling you you're crazy, they should have been going, wow, you're such an amazing person. I see this in you. I love this about you. I never had that. All I ever had was somebody shooting at me. My whole life until I was in my mid-50s is when I finally got abuse free. So it, it's, it, it's possible. And I had to overcome a lot of belief structure, theological beliefs, being a being, you know, well known in the community, being pastor. You know, what was, it was a deep dive. But the freedom that I've received is I would do it again.

>> Tiffanie: That's what's important. It's for, it's what you learned from it and nobody can take that from you.

>> Patrick Doyle: well. And you know, living out of the real value that I have has made me a much more loving, caring person. Instead of being a religious, dogmatic, self righteous, whatever it was, you know, all those things were very caring to other people. But quote unquote. But I don't. I can be with anyone now where before I couldn't. I can relate to anyone because I'm not trying to figure out what your belief structure is. I'm not trying to get you to believe something that you know, you know, I'm not, I'm not in the I'm gonna fix it mode. I don't, I'm, My job is to be with people. And they, and I believe that with this. Being with people is more healing than any amount of technique.

>> Tiffanie: Yeah.

>> Patrick Doyle: And you know, the safety that comes with being with means you have to have the safety in yourself to be able to be present with someone. And I, I see it all the time with. I, I've trained lots of counselors in my career and I, I've always been amazed at how little they, they have the ability to be present because they're in their head trying to figure everything out. What about this? And what are they saying? This instead of just being there and like really taking that person in.


Sometimes we just need to talk. And have the freedom to say whatever you want

That's.

>> Tiffanie: Yeah. Sometimes we just need to talk.

>> Patrick Doyle: Exactly. That's what I mean.

>> Tiffanie: Yeah.

>> Patrick Doyle: And have the freedom to say whatever you want. There's no judgment, there's no correction, there's no Platitude. It's just like, I'm here for you. Let's have it. Let's. What, what is it? Any, it doesn't matter. Let's go. but I had for so many years a, whatever my theological, you know, filter was, I, it had to line up otherwise I couldn't be with you. And I didn't know that consciously, but looking back, I see how real that was.

>> Tiffanie: You're conditioned.

>> Patrick Doyle: Correct. Brainwashed act.


Patrick loves working with traumatized people. If anybody wants to work with Patrick, the link will be below

>> Tiffanie: Well, welcome back, episode.

>> Patrick Doyle: Well, thank you.

>> Tiffanie: Is there anything else you wanted to add? I am going to make sure I add your links in the show notes.

>> Patrick Doyle: Yeah, please.

>> Tiffanie: Yeah. So you don't work with men or you just.

>> Patrick Doyle: I do, I do work. I do, I do work with everyone. you know, obviously I'm, I'm an expert in addiction. I know abuse, I know trauma, I know childhood trauma. I do all that stuff. But because, you know, this, this, the emotional abuse became such a thing. I just did it, you know. But it's not the only thing I do. And that's part of why I want to be on these podcasts is to like, let people know that, like, look, I can have you a lot of things. I'm, I'm, I'm not, I mean, emotional abuse is real and I'm, I can help you with that. But you know, if you're an addict or you have childhood trauma or whatever, I, I can, I can help. so yeah, but I'm really hoping I don't get too niched because I love working with traumatized people. I love working with addicts. I love working with people that are, you know, trying to find their value, who love that stuff. And you know, I do it all the time with abused women, but that's not all I want to do.

>> Tiffanie: Right.

>> Patrick Doyle: There's other hurt people in the world and you know, the whole spiritual abuse thing and helping people through the process of working through their, you know, questions with a, religion and stuff, I've, I've found that to be highly rewarding. It's very difficult work because people are so weirded out by the questioning them, starting to question their, you know, their belief structure. I, I, I understand it because I went through it, but I think there's a huge, need there.

>> Tiffanie: Oh, for sure, absolutely.

>> Patrick Doyle: Yeah. So I, I really love that work too. So. Yeah.

>> Tiffanie: Awesome. Well, cool. If anybody wants to work with Patrick, the link will be at the bottom of the show notes. Make sure to reach out. I think you're doing an amazing job and I love what you do. It's so important, and it's needed in the world.

>> Patrick Doyle: Well, I feel the same way about you.

>> Tiffanie: Well, thank you.

>> Patrick Doyle: I appreciate the encouragement.

>> Tiffanie: Absolutely. That's what we're here for.