{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":6.81,"endTime":8.7,"body":"Welcome to"},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":6.81,"endTime":8.7,"body":"Perfect Bound. I'm Jennifer"},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":8.73,"endTime":11.46,"body":"Yoffy, the founder and publisher"},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":8.73,"endTime":11.46,"body":"of Yoffy Press in Atlanta,"},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":11.46,"endTime":14.85,"body":"Georgia. This is a podcast where"},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":11.46,"endTime":14.85,"body":"we talk to artists about their"},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":14.85,"endTime":18.21,"body":"journey, how they got where they"},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":14.85,"endTime":18.21,"body":"are, what right and wrong turns"},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":18.21,"endTime":20.61,"body":"they made along the way, and"},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":18.21,"endTime":20.61,"body":"where they're heading next."},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":27.35,"endTime":30.65,"body":"Hans Gremman is a graphic"},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":27.35,"endTime":30.65,"body":"designer based in Amsterdam. He"},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":30.65,"endTime":33.38,"body":"works in photography,"},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":30.65,"endTime":33.38,"body":"architecture and fine art and"},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":33.38,"endTime":37.16,"body":"has designed over 300 books."},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":33.38,"endTime":37.16,"body":"He's won many awards for his"},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":37.16,"endTime":40.82,"body":"experimental designs, among them"},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":37.16,"endTime":40.82,"body":"a golden medal in the Best Books"},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":41.21,"endTime":45.26,"body":"from all over the World"},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":41.21,"endTime":45.26,"body":"competition. In 2008, he founded"},{"speaker":"Fw","startTime":45.29,"endTime":48.65,"body":"Books, a publishing house"},{"speaker":"Fw","startTime":45.29,"endTime":48.65,"body":"with a focus on photography"},{"speaker":"Fw","startTime":48.65,"endTime":52.58,"body":"related projects and books."},{"speaker":"Fw","startTime":48.65,"endTime":52.58,"body":"Together with Roma Publications"},{"speaker":"Fw","startTime":52.58,"endTime":56.09,"body":"he recently founded Enter Enter"},{"speaker":"Fw","startTime":52.58,"endTime":56.09,"body":"a project space in the center of"},{"speaker":"Fw","startTime":56.09,"endTime":59.69,"body":"Amsterdam, which explores the"},{"speaker":"Fw","startTime":56.09,"endTime":59.69,"body":"boundaries of the book. Please"},{"speaker":"Fw","startTime":59.69,"endTime":61.25,"body":"welcome Hans Gremmen."},{"speaker":"Fw","startTime":68.44,"endTime":74.02,"body":"So, first, I just have to have"},{"speaker":"Fw","startTime":68.44,"endTime":74.02,"body":"like a fangirl moment for a"},{"speaker":"Fw","startTime":74.02,"endTime":77.8,"body":"minute. So I'm apologize in"},{"speaker":"Fw","startTime":74.02,"endTime":77.8,"body":"advance. But I always tell"},{"speaker":"Fw","startTime":77.8,"endTime":83.71,"body":"people with you as a designer,"},{"speaker":"Fw","startTime":77.8,"endTime":83.71,"body":"it's like, if I, if I was going"},{"speaker":"Fw","startTime":83.71,"endTime":89.53,"body":"to make a wedding dress, at the"},{"speaker":"Fw","startTime":83.71,"endTime":89.53,"body":"end of much toiling, it would be"},{"speaker":"Fw","startTime":89.53,"endTime":93.01,"body":"white. But it wouldn't look"},{"speaker":"Fw","startTime":89.53,"endTime":93.01,"body":"anything like if Vera Wang was"},{"speaker":"Fw","startTime":93.01,"endTime":95.2,"body":"going to make a wedding dress,"},{"speaker":"Fw","startTime":93.01,"endTime":95.2,"body":"because you look at that up"},{"speaker":"Fw","startTime":95.2,"endTime":98.71,"body":"close. And you're like, Oh,"},{"speaker":"Fw","startTime":95.2,"endTime":98.71,"body":"that's brilliant. And that's how"},{"speaker":"Fw","startTime":98.71,"endTime":101.08,"body":"I feel about your design work."},{"speaker":"Fw","startTime":98.71,"endTime":101.08,"body":"And I've always felt that way"},{"speaker":"Fw","startTime":101.08,"endTime":105.13,"body":"since before working with you"},{"speaker":"Fw","startTime":101.08,"endTime":105.13,"body":"and before meeting you. And so"},{"speaker":"Fw","startTime":105.13,"endTime":108.64,"body":"it's super exciting to have you"},{"speaker":"Fw","startTime":105.13,"endTime":108.64,"body":"here. And sometimes it just,"},{"speaker":"Fw","startTime":108.88,"endTime":111.55,"body":"you're one of those people, I"},{"speaker":"Fw","startTime":108.88,"endTime":111.55,"body":"wish I could just like dump your"},{"speaker":"Fw","startTime":111.55,"endTime":115.18,"body":"whole brain into my whole brain"},{"speaker":"Fw","startTime":111.55,"endTime":115.18,"body":"and be like, Ah, that's how it's"},{"speaker":"Fw","startTime":115.18,"endTime":119.44,"body":"done. So, this is not going to"},{"speaker":"Fw","startTime":115.18,"endTime":119.44,"body":"be that. But I am going to ask"},{"speaker":"Fw","startTime":119.44,"endTime":123.13,"body":"you some questions. I was"},{"speaker":"Fw","startTime":119.44,"endTime":123.13,"body":"thinking about designing and"},{"speaker":"Fw","startTime":123.13,"endTime":125.53,"body":"photo books. And there are"},{"speaker":"Fw","startTime":123.13,"endTime":125.53,"body":"obviously a lot of different"},{"speaker":"Fw","startTime":125.53,"endTime":128.98,"body":"types of photo books or"},{"speaker":"Fw","startTime":125.53,"endTime":128.98,"body":"different types of photography,"},{"speaker":"Fw","startTime":128.98,"endTime":133.87,"body":"like documentary or conceptual,"},{"speaker":"Fw","startTime":128.98,"endTime":133.87,"body":"narrative, which do you enjoy"},{"speaker":"Fw","startTime":133.9,"endTime":137.8,"body":"working with most and which do"},{"speaker":"Fw","startTime":133.9,"endTime":137.8,"body":"you find most challenging?"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":140.66,"endTime":144.59,"body":"I'm not sure if"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":140.66,"endTime":144.59,"body":"it's, if it's a genre which I"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":145.37,"endTime":156.26,"body":"specifically prefer? I think"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":145.37,"endTime":156.26,"body":"it's well, sometimes, if it's"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":156.26,"endTime":160.67,"body":"really like hardcore"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":156.26,"endTime":160.67,"body":"documentary, then that's, then"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":160.67,"endTime":168.26,"body":"it's very challenging. Because"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":160.67,"endTime":168.26,"body":"there is... ummm... that"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":168.26,"endTime":172.46,"body":"sometimes that that's a bit...,"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":168.26,"endTime":172.46,"body":"you would say that's one of the"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":172.49,"endTime":175.31,"body":"easier things because there's a"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":172.49,"endTime":175.31,"body":"clear narrative, and you just"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":175.31,"endTime":175.91,"body":"follow that..."},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":175.94,"endTime":176.42,"body":"Right"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":178.22,"endTime":181.1,"body":"Which is also the"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":178.22,"endTime":181.1,"body":"case a lot of times, and"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":181.13,"endTime":185.66,"body":"especially if it's if it's a"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":181.13,"endTime":185.66,"body":"combination with text, and then"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":185.66,"endTime":190.79,"body":"it sort of edits itself if you"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":185.66,"endTime":190.79,"body":"just follow the narrative. But"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":192.29,"endTime":197.96,"body":"for one, I don't know, it's also"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":192.29,"endTime":197.96,"body":"the story is so important, and"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":199.82,"endTime":206.03,"body":"that it's hard to add anything."},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":199.82,"endTime":206.03,"body":"It's not that I'm designing and"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":206.03,"endTime":208.97,"body":"I'm always looking for ways to"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":206.03,"endTime":208.97,"body":"add things or make things more"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":208.97,"endTime":216.17,"body":"complex or arty or whatever. But"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":208.97,"endTime":216.17,"body":"there's this thin line that it"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":216.17,"endTime":221.42,"body":"can work, that I can really add"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":216.17,"endTime":221.42,"body":"something to the project. And I"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":221.42,"endTime":224.87,"body":"think there's other designers"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":221.42,"endTime":224.87,"body":"who really stand out in more"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":224.87,"endTime":225.89,"body":"documentary work."},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":226.49,"endTime":228.47,"body":"Do you feel like"},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":226.49,"endTime":228.47,"body":"documentary is like more"},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":228.47,"endTime":231.47,"body":"pressure that way? Because you"},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":228.47,"endTime":231.47,"body":"have to make sure that you're"},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":231.47,"endTime":234.77,"body":"being so true to the story."},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":236.73,"endTime":242.28,"body":"Yeah, it's that in"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":236.73,"endTime":242.28,"body":"a lot of other cases as well,"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":242.28,"endTime":247.11,"body":"but and it's also a bit how you"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":242.28,"endTime":247.11,"body":"define documentary because a few"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":247.11,"endTime":250.2,"body":"years ago, I was working with"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":247.11,"endTime":250.2,"body":"Andres Gonzalez on American"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":250.2,"endTime":256.44,"body":"Origami, which is in itself you"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":250.2,"endTime":256.44,"body":"could say it's documentary, or"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":256.44,"endTime":261.96,"body":"at least it wants to document a"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":256.44,"endTime":261.96,"body":"specific event or a series of"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":261.96,"endTime":266.91,"body":"events and wants to tell a story"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":261.96,"endTime":266.91,"body":"behind that in a sort of"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":266.91,"endTime":273.33,"body":"parallel world. But that's a bit"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":266.91,"endTime":273.33,"body":"more conceptual documentary, I"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":273.33,"endTime":273.9,"body":"would say."},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":274.29,"endTime":276.51,"body":"Right, then like"},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":274.29,"endTime":276.51,"body":"photojournalism would be."},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":275.85,"endTime":278.94,"body":"Exactly,"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":275.85,"endTime":278.94,"body":"photojournalism is it's"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":278.94,"endTime":282.39,"body":"something which I find find hard"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":278.94,"endTime":282.39,"body":"to deal with. And I don't know"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":282.39,"endTime":286.56,"body":"really why it's just, it's too"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":282.39,"endTime":286.56,"body":"specific, I think. But for the"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":286.56,"endTime":292.95,"body":"rest, it's more about the people"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":286.56,"endTime":292.95,"body":"who make it, that you try to"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":292.95,"endTime":296.04,"body":"find a shared attitude of what a"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":292.95,"endTime":296.04,"body":"book could be and what a book"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":296.04,"endTime":301.71,"body":"could contribute to a specific"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":296.04,"endTime":301.71,"body":"project. And then if that"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":302.28,"endTime":306.3,"body":"attitude is shared, or you have"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":302.28,"endTime":306.3,"body":"the same goal, then it doesn't"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":306.3,"endTime":311.34,"body":"really matter what kind of"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":306.3,"endTime":311.34,"body":"material it is, or what genre or"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":311.34,"endTime":315.57,"body":"something like that. And I thin"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":311.34,"endTime":315.57,"body":"that's more or less the key."},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":315.57,"endTime":320.67,"body":"So it's more about the pers"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":315.57,"endTime":320.67,"body":"n behind it and the actual outp"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":320.67,"endTime":322.05,"body":"t of the person."},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":323.89,"endTime":327.64,"body":"Beyond the work,"},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":323.89,"endTime":327.64,"body":"it's the having a similar"},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":327.64,"endTime":331.87,"body":"mindset in the person you're"},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":327.64,"endTime":331.87,"body":"collaborating with. Someone that"},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":331.87,"endTime":335.23,"body":"wants a super traditional photo"},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":331.87,"endTime":335.23,"body":"book, you're probably not the"},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":335.23,"endTime":337.93,"body":"right fit for them, you're going"},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":335.23,"endTime":337.93,"body":"to be thinking about things"},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":337.96,"endTime":338.65,"body":"differently."},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":340.4,"endTime":346.79,"body":"That's true. But,"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":340.4,"endTime":346.79,"body":"in one of the first"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":346.79,"endTime":356.0,"body":"conversations, I don't always"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":346.79,"endTime":356.0,"body":"ask it, but if I sense that"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":356.0,"endTime":359.21,"body":"there's this wish of a"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":356.0,"endTime":359.21,"body":"traditional photo book, I always"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":359.21,"endTime":363.86,"body":"ask what do people have in mind"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":359.21,"endTime":363.86,"body":"for this kind of book. Also,"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":363.86,"endTime":369.47,"body":"because sometimes if you look at"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":363.86,"endTime":369.47,"body":"the work, and talk about it, and"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":369.89,"endTime":375.59,"body":"also because I'm also publishing"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":369.89,"endTime":375.59,"body":"books, I like to have the first"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":375.59,"endTime":379.22,"body":"conversation very open and if I"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":375.59,"endTime":379.22,"body":"think, Oh, that's better served"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":379.22,"endTime":384.2,"body":"if it's published by Spector"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":379.22,"endTime":384.2,"body":"Books, or by Mac Books, or by"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":384.29,"endTime":389.72,"body":"Aperture or whatever then I also"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":384.29,"endTime":389.72,"body":"ask, Why didn't you approach"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":389.72,"endTime":395.15,"body":"them? or Why did you approach"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":389.72,"endTime":395.15,"body":"me. But in general, I think it"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":395.66,"endTime":399.68,"body":"has to work from both ways. I"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":395.66,"endTime":399.68,"body":"have to be open minded towards"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":399.71,"endTime":404.93,"body":"the wishes and the expectations"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":399.71,"endTime":404.93,"body":"of the artist or photographer"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":404.93,"endTime":410.78,"body":"involved. And the other way"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":404.93,"endTime":410.78,"body":"around, as well. I remember"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":410.81,"endTime":414.32,"body":"making the first book with"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":410.81,"endTime":414.32,"body":"Awoiska van der Molen, the"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":414.32,"endTime":417.98,"body":"Sequester. And she really had"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":414.32,"endTime":417.98,"body":"this wish of making it a"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":417.98,"endTime":425.72,"body":"hardcover book and I thought we"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":417.98,"endTime":425.72,"body":"should do anything but a"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":425.72,"endTime":435.05,"body":"hardcover. But then in the end,"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":425.72,"endTime":435.05,"body":"I took it serious, why she just"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":435.8,"endTime":440.66,"body":"envisioned her work in a"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":435.8,"endTime":440.66,"body":"hardcover book. So then I tried"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":440.66,"endTime":444.62,"body":"to not say okay, we're going to"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":440.66,"endTime":444.62,"body":"make it a fluffy softcover. But,"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":445.1,"endTime":447.56,"body":"now it's a bit in between a"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":445.1,"endTime":447.56,"body":"hardcover and softcover. It's"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":447.56,"endTime":451.67,"body":"using like a thick cardboard, on"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":447.56,"endTime":451.67,"body":"front and back, and then with"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":451.67,"endTime":455.66,"body":"the dust jacket around it. So"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":451.67,"endTime":455.66,"body":"it's debatable if it's hardcover"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":455.66,"endTime":461.57,"body":"or softcover, but it comes from"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":455.66,"endTime":461.57,"body":"this question of her, of this"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":461.6,"endTime":465.71,"body":"wish of making it such a type of"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":461.6,"endTime":465.71,"body":"book. And then I thought, yeah,"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":465.71,"endTime":470.48,"body":"maybe there's interesting"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":465.71,"endTime":470.48,"body":"alternatives. I think that's a"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":470.48,"endTime":475.37,"body":"nice way of working together. I"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":470.48,"endTime":475.37,"body":"mean, and then in the end she"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":475.37,"endTime":481.61,"body":"was open to having an"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":475.37,"endTime":481.61,"body":"alternative hardcover. And so"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":481.61,"endTime":484.94,"body":"it's flexibility from both ways"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":481.61,"endTime":484.94,"body":"and that you have this desire"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":484.94,"endTime":491.33,"body":"to, to be both - sometimes if"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":484.94,"endTime":491.33,"body":"needed - outside your comfort"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":491.33,"endTime":498.98,"body":"zone and to think about the"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":491.33,"endTime":498.98,"body":"material in a pure way, and not"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":499.49,"endTime":506.42,"body":"with a pre assumption of what"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":499.49,"endTime":506.42,"body":"kind of thing you want. Also, I"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":506.42,"endTime":512.12,"body":"want to emphasize it is also for"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":506.42,"endTime":512.12,"body":"me; I also have a preference for"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":512.84,"endTime":517.16,"body":"specific books, but it would"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":512.84,"endTime":517.16,"body":"also be very boring. If I would"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":517.16,"endTime":520.58,"body":"make those kind of books over"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":517.16,"endTime":520.58,"body":"and over. It's really a dialogue"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":520.58,"endTime":523.22,"body":"in which you don't know the"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":520.58,"endTime":523.22,"body":"outcome. And that's also the"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":523.22,"endTime":525.83,"body":"exciting part and sometimes the"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":523.22,"endTime":525.83,"body":"scary part of the whole thing."},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":528.44,"endTime":531.65,"body":"So, before you"},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":528.44,"endTime":531.65,"body":"went to art school, you train"},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":531.65,"endTime":536.03,"body":"for several years to do graphic"},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":531.65,"endTime":536.03,"body":"production work. How does having"},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":536.03,"endTime":539.51,"body":"a printing background or how has"},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":536.03,"endTime":539.51,"body":"having a printing background"},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":539.51,"endTime":541.04,"body":"informed your book design?"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":542.35,"endTime":547.69,"body":"I think very much,"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":542.35,"endTime":547.69,"body":"it was a printing background,"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":547.69,"endTime":553.39,"body":"but also like pre press and my"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":547.69,"endTime":553.39,"body":"internship was half year, I was"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":553.39,"endTime":558.25,"body":"working for half a year at the"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":553.39,"endTime":558.25,"body":"advertising agency and my job"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":558.25,"endTime":561.07,"body":"was every Monday to make sure"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":558.25,"endTime":561.07,"body":"that in the darkroom where the"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":561.07,"endTime":563.2,"body":"photo machines were to have that"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":561.07,"endTime":563.2,"body":"cleaned and to to make that"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":563.2,"endTime":564.64,"body":"technically perfect. (At the"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":563.2,"endTime":564.64,"body":"time, it was still on the edge"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":564.64,"endTime":569.38,"body":"of analog/digital in the 90s."},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":564.64,"endTime":569.38,"body":"And so a lot of the"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":569.44,"endTime":572.26,"body":"advertisements which were made"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":569.44,"endTime":572.26,"body":"were not sent in the email to"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":572.26,"endTime":575.77,"body":"the print to the newspaper but"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":572.26,"endTime":575.77,"body":"they were photographically"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":575.77,"endTime":581.71,"body":"printed on photographic paper"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":575.77,"endTime":581.71,"body":"and then a bike messenger would"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":581.71,"endTime":584.89,"body":"bring, every evening, all these"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":581.71,"endTime":584.89,"body":"things to the newspaper and they"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":584.89,"endTime":588.82,"body":"could make a montage of all the"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":584.89,"endTime":588.82,"body":"sheets.) So it's like pre press"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":602.74,"endTime":609.88,"body":"press and very practical. And"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":602.74,"endTime":609.88,"body":"that helped me a lot because I"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":609.91,"endTime":616.18,"body":"became very familiar with the"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":609.91,"endTime":616.18,"body":"whole printing industry, I"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":616.18,"endTime":623.68,"body":"understand the way paper works"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":616.18,"endTime":623.68,"body":"on a production level. I mean,"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":623.71,"endTime":626.92,"body":"of course, it's evolved"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":623.71,"endTime":626.92,"body":"immensely since that time. But"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":627.37,"endTime":632.26,"body":"in essence, I understand how"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":627.37,"endTime":632.26,"body":"these things work. So that also"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":633.13,"endTime":637.27,"body":"gives me the position to"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":633.13,"endTime":637.27,"body":"question every now and then how"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":637.27,"endTime":641.68,"body":"this works. And to challenge"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":637.27,"endTime":641.68,"body":"binders or printers to say,"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":641.68,"endTime":644.47,"body":"Okay, I know you normally would"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":641.68,"endTime":644.47,"body":"bind at the left hand side, but"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":644.5,"endTime":647.5,"body":"can we just try it upside down,"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":644.5,"endTime":647.5,"body":"inside out? And let's see what"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":647.53,"endTime":651.1,"body":"happens. Because if you meet"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":647.53,"endTime":651.1,"body":"with the machines in a different"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":651.1,"endTime":656.26,"body":"way, if you use them in a"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":651.1,"endTime":656.26,"body":"different way, then I'm curious"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":656.26,"endTime":660.01,"body":"what the outcome will be. That's"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":656.26,"endTime":660.01,"body":"what I really like about working"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":660.01,"endTime":664.42,"body":"with with paper and printed"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":660.01,"endTime":664.42,"body":"matter. Because every now and"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":664.42,"endTime":669.37,"body":"then I also design websites, but"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":664.42,"endTime":669.37,"body":"then I feel a bit uncomfortable"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":669.85,"endTime":674.38,"body":"because I don't have the feeling"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":669.85,"endTime":674.38,"body":"that I control that medium on"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":674.38,"endTime":678.01,"body":"all levels, it's a different way"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":674.38,"endTime":678.01,"body":"of designing. And then..."},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":678.94,"endTime":679.96,"body":"The website, you"},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":678.94,"endTime":679.96,"body":"mean?"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":680.2,"endTime":682.93,"body":"Yeah, websites, or"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":680.2,"endTime":682.93,"body":"web design, or making apps or"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":682.93,"endTime":685.87,"body":"these kind of things. It's also"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":682.93,"endTime":685.87,"body":"design, and it's also sometimes"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":686.68,"endTime":693.43,"body":"the right thing to do. But I"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":686.68,"endTime":693.43,"body":"have the feeling that I cannot"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":693.46,"endTime":696.88,"body":"offer what I can offer if I"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":693.46,"endTime":696.88,"body":"think about paper and ink and"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":696.88,"endTime":697.75,"body":"these kind of things,"},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":697.78,"endTime":699.91,"body":"Right. Because"},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":697.78,"endTime":699.91,"body":"you have this deep knowledge. Do"},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":699.91,"endTime":703.48,"body":"printers and binders get nervous"},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":699.91,"endTime":703.48,"body":"when you call them? Are they"},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":703.48,"endTime":707.08,"body":"like, Oh, no, here comes Hans"},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":703.48,"endTime":707.08,"body":"again with one of his crazy"},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":707.08,"endTime":710.2,"body":"ideas, you make us turn our"},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":707.08,"endTime":710.2,"body":"machines upside down?"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":710.63,"endTime":715.55,"body":"Well,"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":710.63,"endTime":715.55,"body":"unfortunately, the last years"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":715.55,"endTime":719.66,"body":"they go bankrupt every one after"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":715.55,"endTime":719.66,"body":"another. But I don't have"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":719.66,"endTime":728.24,"body":"anything to do with that. But"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":719.66,"endTime":728.24,"body":"it's similar to with working"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":728.24,"endTime":732.47,"body":"with a with an artist who is"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":728.24,"endTime":732.47,"body":"like minded, same goes for the"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":732.47,"endTime":740.15,"body":"printer and the same goes for"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":732.47,"endTime":740.15,"body":"the binder. I think they would"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":740.15,"endTime":747.23,"body":"really like to be challenged in"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":740.15,"endTime":747.23,"body":"that sense. But I also work with"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":747.23,"endTime":753.14,"body":"a set of binders and printers."},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":747.23,"endTime":753.14,"body":"So for each job, I think I try"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":753.14,"endTime":759.71,"body":"to assemble the best team"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":753.14,"endTime":759.71,"body":"possible. And I think this is"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":759.71,"endTime":761.81,"body":"really something for this binder"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":759.71,"endTime":761.81,"body":"or this printer."},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":762.05,"endTime":766.16,"body":"...Just"},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":762.05,"endTime":766.16,"body":"depending on what the design"},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":766.16,"endTime":768.65,"body":"specs are and what you know,"},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":766.16,"endTime":768.65,"body":"their capabilities are."},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":768.66,"endTime":770.85,"body":"Yeah, sometimes if"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":768.66,"endTime":770.85,"body":"I think binding is really"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":770.85,"endTime":775.26,"body":"important, then, that sometimes"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":770.85,"endTime":775.26,"body":"it's also connected with the"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":775.26,"endTime":777.75,"body":"kind of printer you choose,"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":775.26,"endTime":777.75,"body":"because they have relations as"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":777.75,"endTime":784.41,"body":"well. among each other. Yeah,"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":777.75,"endTime":784.41,"body":"and also with this, I try to"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":784.41,"endTime":791.1,"body":"have a very open conversation"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":784.41,"endTime":791.1,"body":"and make tests if needed. And"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":791.1,"endTime":795.3,"body":"also ask them if they think I"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":791.1,"endTime":795.3,"body":"should make tests so that"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":795.3,"endTime":796.62,"body":"they're comfortable as well."},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":797.7,"endTime":799.41,"body":"What are some"},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":797.7,"endTime":799.41,"body":"examples of books you've"},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":799.41,"endTime":803.88,"body":"designed that have benefited"},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":799.41,"endTime":803.88,"body":"from the deep knowledge you have"},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":803.88,"endTime":807.18,"body":"of the printing process? Like"},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":803.88,"endTime":807.18,"body":"some some books where you've"},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":807.18,"endTime":808.92,"body":"really pushed the boundaries?"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":809.65,"endTime":812.32,"body":"Yeah. Well, the"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":809.65,"endTime":812.32,"body":"first thing which comes to mind"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":812.32,"endTime":818.32,"body":"is of course, Andres Gonzalez's"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":812.32,"endTime":818.32,"body":"American Origami. And there it"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":818.32,"endTime":822.88,"body":"was a bit of deep knowledge and"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":818.32,"endTime":822.88,"body":"it's also sometimes very"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":822.88,"endTime":830.35,"body":"elementary knowledge. But"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":822.88,"endTime":830.35,"body":"sometimes it also good to be a"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":830.35,"endTime":833.77,"body":"bit naive, because for instance,"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":830.35,"endTime":833.77,"body":"with this complex way of"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":833.77,"endTime":838.09,"body":"binding, there was something"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":833.77,"endTime":838.09,"body":"that's very sophisticated."},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":838.09,"endTime":845.08,"body":"Binders were thinking too"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":838.09,"endTime":845.08,"body":"complex. And then I found like a"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":845.08,"endTime":848.86,"body":"super straightforward, almost"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":845.08,"endTime":848.86,"body":"office like binder and for them,"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":848.86,"endTime":851.65,"body":"it was no problem. And, of"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":848.86,"endTime":851.65,"body":"course, we can do that. And then"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":851.65,"endTime":855.34,"body":"they made a few tests. So it's a"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":851.65,"endTime":855.34,"body":"bit balancing between sometimes"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":857.17,"endTime":864.61,"body":"daring to ask the unexpected or"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":857.17,"endTime":864.61,"body":"the bit naive question. And"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":865.15,"endTime":868.06,"body":"also, once I made this book"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":865.15,"endTime":868.06,"body":"between the volumes printed on"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":868.06,"endTime":873.19,"body":"black paper, with the inverted"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":868.06,"endTime":873.19,"body":"printing technique, with a"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":873.19,"endTime":877.45,"body":"negative white and then with a"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":873.19,"endTime":877.45,"body":"bit full color on top of that,"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":878.14,"endTime":882.4,"body":"and everybody understood the"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":878.14,"endTime":882.4,"body":"idea, but then the machines"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":882.4,"endTime":890.17,"body":"didn't because there's this sort"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":882.4,"endTime":890.17,"body":"of printing press has an eye as"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":890.17,"endTime":893.65,"body":"well to check every sheet of"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":890.17,"endTime":893.65,"body":"paper. And there's also always"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":893.65,"endTime":899.89,"body":"this color bar on top of the"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":893.65,"endTime":899.89,"body":"paper and of course on black"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":899.89,"endTime":903.67,"body":"paper it didn't recognize it, or"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":899.89,"endTime":903.67,"body":"it was it was inverted. So then"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":903.67,"endTime":909.07,"body":"it's sort of stopped printing"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":903.67,"endTime":909.07,"body":"and I had to put tape on the on"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":909.07,"endTime":913.69,"body":"the machine to cheat the machine"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":909.07,"endTime":913.69,"body":"in a way. And then I had to be"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":913.72,"endTime":917.02,"body":"on press, which I was planning"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":913.72,"endTime":917.02,"body":"to do anyway. I had to be on"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":917.02,"endTime":920.89,"body":"press because normally you use"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":917.02,"endTime":920.89,"body":"this information also to"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":920.89,"endTime":923.8,"body":"calibrate the machine. But we"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":920.89,"endTime":923.8,"body":"had to do it on the spot there"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":923.8,"endTime":929.59,"body":"to say, Okay, this looks good."},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":923.8,"endTime":929.59,"body":"But I was planning to be there"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":929.59,"endTime":930.73,"body":"anyway, so that was fine."},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":932.14,"endTime":933.97,"body":"Are all the"},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":932.14,"endTime":933.97,"body":"printers and binders you work"},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":933.97,"endTime":936.88,"body":"with pretty local, too? Are they"},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":933.97,"endTime":936.88,"body":"all in the Netherlands?"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":936.91,"endTime":939.49,"body":"I prefer that."},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":936.91,"endTime":939.49,"body":"Yeah, it's not it's not a given."},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":939.52,"endTime":943.78,"body":"I mean, I'm open. But, I like"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":939.52,"endTime":943.78,"body":"that simply because then I have"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":943.78,"endTime":946.72,"body":"the feeling I control the"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":943.78,"endTime":946.72,"body":"process."},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":946.72,"endTime":949.96,"body":"There's such a"},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":946.72,"endTime":949.96,"body":"benefit to being there you know?"},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":949.96,"endTime":953.68,"body":"Versus The States where I get"},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":949.96,"endTime":953.68,"body":"everything, almost everything,"},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":953.68,"endTime":954.79,"body":"printed overseas."},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":954.93,"endTime":959.97,"body":"Yeah, no, I like"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":954.93,"endTime":959.97,"body":"that a lot, too. It's also nice"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":959.97,"endTime":962.46,"body":"these trips, too. I mean, now"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":959.97,"endTime":962.46,"body":"it's, of course, different. I"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":962.46,"endTime":964.74,"body":"have to be in separate rooms for"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":962.46,"endTime":964.74,"body":"safety, and all these kinds of"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":964.74,"endTime":969.33,"body":"things. But in normal situation,"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":964.74,"endTime":969.33,"body":"I've really, really enjoyed"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":969.33,"endTime":972.6,"body":"these trips to go into a press"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":969.33,"endTime":972.6,"body":"and be there for a whole day,"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":973.35,"endTime":976.11,"body":"eat horrible food from a gas"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":973.35,"endTime":976.11,"body":"station or whatever. It's all"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":977.37,"endTime":980.85,"body":"part of the experience. That's"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":977.37,"endTime":980.85,"body":"super nice. I mean, I really"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":980.85,"endTime":985.8,"body":"liked it. And also, that you"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":980.85,"endTime":985.8,"body":"have a lot of time in between"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":985.8,"endTime":989.07,"body":"printing, because printing a"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":985.8,"endTime":989.07,"body":"sheet and then it takes an hour"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":989.07,"endTime":993.36,"body":"to print the second sheet. And"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":989.07,"endTime":993.36,"body":"then if you if you say the first"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":993.36,"endTime":996.42,"body":"sheet is okay, you have to wait"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":993.36,"endTime":996.42,"body":"basically, loads of times for an"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":996.42,"endTime":999.54,"body":"hour or something, but then it's"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":996.42,"endTime":999.54,"body":"nice to walk around. And then I"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":999.54,"endTime":1003.59,"body":"always go to the trash and see"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":999.54,"endTime":1003.59,"body":"what they were printing on other"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1003.59,"endTime":1008.12,"body":"books or, or these kind of"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1003.59,"endTime":1008.12,"body":"things, and that it always gives"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1008.12,"endTime":1011.48,"body":"you ideas or you have time to"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1008.12,"endTime":1011.48,"body":"talk with a printer, about"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1011.48,"endTime":1016.16,"body":"totally different things. But"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1011.48,"endTime":1016.16,"body":"it's sort of, it's really nice"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1016.19,"endTime":1023.27,"body":"to plug into that world in that"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1016.19,"endTime":1023.27,"body":"way. On the indirect level, you"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1023.27,"endTime":1026.81,"body":"always benefit, I think, from"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1023.27,"endTime":1026.81,"body":"being on press for that specific"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1026.81,"endTime":1031.64,"body":"job, it is important. But it"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1026.81,"endTime":1031.64,"body":"also helps other jobs, future"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1031.64,"endTime":1032.69,"body":"jobs are passed..."},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":1032.69,"endTime":1036.14,"body":"Right, spark"},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":1032.69,"endTime":1036.14,"body":"ideas, and seeing materials,"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1036.0,"endTime":1038.46,"body":"Definitely, seeing"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1036.0,"endTime":1038.46,"body":"papers, seeing materials. And"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1036.14,"endTime":1036.62,"body":"maybe."},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1038.94,"endTime":1043.35,"body":"also, I once found out when we"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1038.94,"endTime":1043.35,"body":"were reprinting a book, or"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1043.35,"endTime":1049.86,"body":"printing a book, that this press"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1043.35,"endTime":1049.86,"body":"was this printing house, did art"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1049.86,"endTime":1055.2,"body":"books, but then in a different"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1049.86,"endTime":1055.2,"body":"area. They did food production"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1055.2,"endTime":1060.42,"body":"labels, like the labels which"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1055.2,"endTime":1060.42,"body":"goes on cans, from beans, or"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1060.42,"endTime":1065.73,"body":"soup or these kind of things."},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1060.42,"endTime":1065.73,"body":"And they were using paper, which"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1065.82,"endTime":1068.4,"body":"I was already looking for these"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1065.82,"endTime":1068.4,"body":"cans, it's but it's very"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1068.4,"endTime":1073.38,"body":"specific. But it has nothing to"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1068.4,"endTime":1073.38,"body":"do with the art world. But they"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1073.38,"endTime":1076.47,"body":"were using paper which I was"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1073.38,"endTime":1076.47,"body":"looking for, often, when I"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1076.8,"endTime":1080.55,"body":"wanted to make an art book for a"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1076.8,"endTime":1080.55,"body":"dust jacket or for inserts. And"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1080.55,"endTime":1083.4,"body":"they always told me it's not"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1080.55,"endTime":1083.4,"body":"possible. It's not available."},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1083.82,"endTime":1089.19,"body":"And it's not available in the"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1083.82,"endTime":1089.19,"body":"standard art book world but it's"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1089.19,"endTime":1093.69,"body":"available in another field. And"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1089.19,"endTime":1093.69,"body":"that's that was a really nice"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1093.69,"endTime":1098.04,"body":"discovery because then you can"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1093.69,"endTime":1098.04,"body":"say, oh, but if you use that"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1098.28,"endTime":1102.93,"body":"pile of paper, and you bring it"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1098.28,"endTime":1102.93,"body":"to this area, then I think we"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1102.93,"endTime":1107.7,"body":"could we could make it work. And"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1102.93,"endTime":1107.7,"body":"in the end, it was a sort of"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1107.7,"endTime":1108.93,"body":"failed experiment. But..."},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":1109.5,"endTime":1110.55,"body":"Oh, it didn't"},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":1109.5,"endTime":1110.55,"body":"work out?"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1111.71,"endTime":1117.35,"body":"Yeah, it did. But"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1111.71,"endTime":1117.35,"body":"it's, well, it's really like a"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1117.35,"endTime":1121.1,"body":"different world I found out. I"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1117.35,"endTime":1121.1,"body":"could maybe use it for labels or"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1121.1,"endTime":1123.98,"body":"for other things, but, for the"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1121.1,"endTime":1123.98,"body":"one thing I had in mind, it"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1123.98,"endTime":1127.7,"body":"didn't really work. But"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1123.98,"endTime":1127.7,"body":"nevertheless, it was nice to"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1129.29,"endTime":1133.67,"body":"make that connection and to see"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1129.29,"endTime":1133.67,"body":"if that could work."},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":1134.24,"endTime":1137.54,"body":"So why did you"},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":1134.24,"endTime":1137.54,"body":"move from the production side to"},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":1137.54,"endTime":1142.16,"body":"the design side? And has the"},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":1137.54,"endTime":1142.16,"body":"book form always been your focus"},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":1142.16,"endTime":1143.18,"body":"and your passion?"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1143.99,"endTime":1146.24,"body":"Well, it was"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1143.99,"endTime":1146.24,"body":"somehow a long journey. I think"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1146.24,"endTime":1151.07,"body":"at first I did four years of"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1146.24,"endTime":1151.07,"body":"this practical thing, practical"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1151.07,"endTime":1155.33,"body":"education. And then it was in my"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1151.07,"endTime":1155.33,"body":"final year, a teacher of mine"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1155.36,"endTime":1161.09,"body":"told me Did you ever consider"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1155.36,"endTime":1161.09,"body":"going to art school? But I"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1161.09,"endTime":1161.69,"body":"didn't really like..."},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":1162.11,"endTime":1164.45,"body":"I wish he had"},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":1162.11,"endTime":1164.45,"body":"said something four years ago?"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1164.84,"endTime":1171.38,"body":"No, I think after"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1164.84,"endTime":1171.38,"body":"being really educated on a super"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1171.38,"endTime":1175.04,"body":"practical level, I was really"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1171.38,"endTime":1175.04,"body":"eager to think in a more"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1175.04,"endTime":1178.7,"body":"conceptual way because there was"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1175.04,"endTime":1178.7,"body":"not space for that in that"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1179.27,"endTime":1183.68,"body":"school. And having all this"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1179.27,"endTime":1183.68,"body":"knowledge of four years, I knew"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1183.71,"endTime":1187.04,"body":"all the programs, how they"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1183.71,"endTime":1187.04,"body":"worked like Illustrator,"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1187.04,"endTime":1190.85,"body":"Photoshop, Quark Express was in"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1187.04,"endTime":1190.85,"body":"those days, still the standard,"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1191.42,"endTime":1194.36,"body":"which is now InDesign, but I"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1191.42,"endTime":1194.36,"body":"really understood all these"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1194.39,"endTime":1200.72,"body":"technical parts so I could save"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1194.39,"endTime":1200.72,"body":"all my time skipping those"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1200.72,"endTime":1205.31,"body":"courses in art school, and just"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1200.72,"endTime":1205.31,"body":"focus on totally different"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1205.31,"endTime":1208.88,"body":"things like concepts and talking"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1205.31,"endTime":1208.88,"body":"with other people about their"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1208.88,"endTime":1213.74,"body":"work. I was in the art school, I"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1208.88,"endTime":1213.74,"body":"wanted to do everything. I"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1214.13,"endTime":1219.92,"body":"applied as a photographer with"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1214.13,"endTime":1219.92,"body":"photos. But then I wanted to do"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1219.92,"endTime":1223.16,"body":"sculpting. I made sculptures and"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1219.92,"endTime":1223.16,"body":"then I made movies and"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1224.78,"endTime":1229.49,"body":"everything, I thought was fun."},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1224.78,"endTime":1229.49,"body":"But I was a bit lost after one"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1229.49,"endTime":1232.34,"body":"year about what to choose,"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1229.49,"endTime":1232.34,"body":"because the first year was basic"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1232.34,"endTime":1237.92,"body":"year, you don't really have to"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1232.34,"endTime":1237.92,"body":"choose. Everything is together."},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1238.61,"endTime":1242.48,"body":"So you do painting, you do"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1238.61,"endTime":1242.48,"body":"everything. But then I found out"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1242.54,"endTime":1247.01,"body":"at the end of the year that what"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1242.54,"endTime":1247.01,"body":"I enjoyed most was talking to"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1247.01,"endTime":1255.98,"body":"other people about their ideas."},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1247.01,"endTime":1255.98,"body":"And then I was reacting to what"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1255.98,"endTime":1258.38,"body":"they were saying, they were"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1255.98,"endTime":1258.38,"body":"making paintings and I would say"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1258.38,"endTime":1263.9,"body":"Oh, that's quite nice. And yeah,"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1258.38,"endTime":1263.9,"body":"maybe if I reconstruct this, it"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1263.9,"endTime":1266.57,"body":"sounds like a super annoying"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1263.9,"endTime":1266.57,"body":"person who walks into your life."},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1268.34,"endTime":1271.19,"body":"Did you ever consider painting"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1268.34,"endTime":1271.19,"body":"in other colors?"},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":1272.57,"endTime":1275.24,"body":"You're like,"},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":1272.57,"endTime":1275.24,"body":"that's nice, but I think it"},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":1275.24,"endTime":1276.08,"body":"could be better. (laughs)"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1276.02,"endTime":1280.13,"body":"Could it be"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1276.02,"endTime":1280.13,"body":"smaller? And with triangles? But"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1280.13,"endTime":1286.22,"body":"you know, it was somehow I fel"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1280.13,"endTime":1286.22,"body":", um.... So it's hard to recon"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1286.22,"endTime":1290.57,"body":"truct how that exactl"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1286.22,"endTime":1290.57,"body":"went. But this interactions"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1290.57,"endTime":1296.06,"body":"with people and partly also, bec"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1290.57,"endTime":1296.06,"body":"use then I found out I'm stro"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1296.06,"endTime":1300.62,"body":"ger in reacting to other people'"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1296.06,"endTime":1300.62,"body":"content than to come up with"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1300.62,"endTime":1305.12,"body":"my own ideas to say simple. Ther"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1300.62,"endTime":1305.12,"body":"'s a difference between initiat"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1305.12,"endTime":1309.53,"body":"ng and reacting. And, in my case"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1305.12,"endTime":1309.53,"body":"a lot of times, it starts with"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1309.53,"endTime":1312.44,"body":"eacting and then initiating"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1309.53,"endTime":1312.44,"body":"ideas, it's sort of natural r"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1312.5,"endTime":1316.73,"body":"sponse also to that."},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":1318.61,"endTime":1319.75,"body":"That's"},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":1318.61,"endTime":1319.75,"body":"interesting, because I was gonna"},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":1319.75,"endTime":1323.89,"body":"ask you about collaboration, it"},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":1319.75,"endTime":1323.89,"body":"seems to be a pretty large focus"},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":1323.89,"endTime":1326.11,"body":"for you. And it's something"},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":1323.89,"endTime":1326.11,"body":"that's a really high value of"},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":1326.11,"endTime":1332.74,"body":"mine. So is that what primarily"},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":1326.11,"endTime":1332.74,"body":"drives your interest in"},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":1332.74,"endTime":1335.71,"body":"collaborating? I mean, you had"},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":1332.74,"endTime":1335.71,"body":"like your publishing imprint,"},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":1335.74,"endTime":1341.56,"body":"and you're in Enter Enter, and"},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":1335.74,"endTime":1341.56,"body":"obviously, all the projects that"},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":1341.56,"endTime":1346.12,"body":"you're designing, so is it that"},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":1341.56,"endTime":1346.12,"body":"back and forth, that drives you"},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":1346.12,"endTime":1347.98,"body":"that fuels the ideas?"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1348.11,"endTime":1352.76,"body":"Definitely. And"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1348.11,"endTime":1352.76,"body":"that's also why in the end I"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1352.76,"endTime":1355.16,"body":"chose graphic design, because"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1352.76,"endTime":1355.16,"body":"then I thought it's sort of like"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1355.16,"endTime":1359.27,"body":"a melting pot for all these kind"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1355.16,"endTime":1359.27,"body":"of disciplines of people. And,"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1359.78,"endTime":1363.44,"body":"and then I feel I can add"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1359.78,"endTime":1363.44,"body":"something to it. So that's what"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1363.44,"endTime":1371.48,"body":"I then chose and then I did a"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1363.44,"endTime":1371.48,"body":"postgraduate typography course,"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1371.6,"endTime":1377.69,"body":"after the art school, and then I"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1371.6,"endTime":1377.69,"body":"simply started as a freelance"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1377.69,"endTime":1385.01,"body":"designer. And in the beginning,"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1377.69,"endTime":1385.01,"body":"it was a lot of work I did that"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1385.07,"endTime":1388.25,"body":"was architecture based or for"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1385.07,"endTime":1388.25,"body":"architects making their"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1388.25,"endTime":1394.01,"body":"portfolios, making books for"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1388.25,"endTime":1394.01,"body":"architecture publishers. And"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1394.01,"endTime":1397.73,"body":"then all of a sudden, I got a"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1394.01,"endTime":1397.73,"body":"question from a friend of mine"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1397.73,"endTime":1402.02,"body":"from art school, who had a"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1397.73,"endTime":1402.02,"body":"collective with photographers,"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1402.05,"endTime":1406.07,"body":"and they wanted to make a"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1402.05,"endTime":1406.07,"body":"magazine. And I was really happy"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1406.34,"endTime":1411.17,"body":"because I'd never worked with"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1406.34,"endTime":1411.17,"body":"photography. But it must be nice"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1411.17,"endTime":1415.94,"body":"to do because before it was"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1411.17,"endTime":1415.94,"body":"mostly typographic what I was"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1415.94,"endTime":1420.44,"body":"doing. So I was very excited to"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1415.94,"endTime":1420.44,"body":"shift and then I found out I"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1420.44,"endTime":1429.32,"body":"really had this affinity with"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1420.44,"endTime":1429.32,"body":"the medium. And so yeah, that's"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1429.35,"endTime":1435.32,"body":"somehow how things started. But"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1429.35,"endTime":1435.32,"body":"it's definitely the interaction"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1435.32,"endTime":1442.82,"body":"but also that's why I still like"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1435.32,"endTime":1442.82,"body":"to do not only work for Fw"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1442.82,"endTime":1449.36,"body":"books, but also I really enjoy"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1442.82,"endTime":1449.36,"body":"doing commissioned work as well."},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1450.29,"endTime":1454.46,"body":"Simply because it's the same in"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1450.29,"endTime":1454.46,"body":"a different way of thinking. I"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1454.46,"endTime":1459.62,"body":"like it because it's nice to"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1454.46,"endTime":1459.62,"body":"have control on the one hand,"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1460.34,"endTime":1463.19,"body":"like with Fw books, I'm more in"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1460.34,"endTime":1463.19,"body":"control of all productions and"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1463.19,"endTime":1467.48,"body":"these kind of things. But it's"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1463.19,"endTime":1467.48,"body":"also really nice to just focus"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1467.48,"endTime":1470.87,"body":"on edit and a design, and then"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1467.48,"endTime":1470.87,"body":"hand it over to somebody else"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1470.9,"endTime":1476.24,"body":"who is then taking care of"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1470.9,"endTime":1476.24,"body":"production, or making a signage"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1476.24,"endTime":1482.3,"body":"system for a museum. And also I"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1476.24,"endTime":1482.3,"body":"really enjoy making a typeface"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1482.3,"endTime":1486.02,"body":"if it's needed for a specific"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1482.3,"endTime":1486.02,"body":"exhibition. I like this"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1486.02,"endTime":1487.88,"body":"diversity of things."},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":1488.71,"endTime":1491.98,"body":"You and I have"},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":1488.71,"endTime":1491.98,"body":"collaborated on a book and are"},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":1491.98,"endTime":1496.93,"body":"about to or in early stages of a"},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":1491.98,"endTime":1496.93,"body":"second and you've talked about"},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":1496.93,"endTime":1501.13,"body":"the importance of the moment you"},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":1496.93,"endTime":1501.13,"body":"see the work for the first time,"},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":1501.13,"endTime":1504.82,"body":"like having that first look"},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":1501.13,"endTime":1504.82,"body":"without context. And so I was"},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":1504.82,"endTime":1508.87,"body":"thinking about just, I don't"},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":1504.82,"endTime":1508.87,"body":"know how much of the"},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":1508.87,"endTime":1511.3,"body":"backstory.... First of all, the"},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":1508.87,"endTime":1511.3,"body":"audience doesn't know the"},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":1511.3,"endTime":1514.45,"body":"backstory. And I don't know how"},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":1511.3,"endTime":1514.45,"body":"much you know about my side."},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":1514.45,"endTime":1520.51,"body":"But, um, so I met Drew"},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":1514.45,"endTime":1520.51,"body":"Nikonowicz at Paris Photo at an"},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":1520.51,"endTime":1526.06,"body":"Aperture party. And he had won"},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":1520.51,"endTime":1526.06,"body":"the Aperture Portfolio Award as"},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":1526.06,"endTime":1532.03,"body":"an undergrad. And so he was"},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":1526.06,"endTime":1532.03,"body":"there, and he was probably"},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":1532.06,"endTime":1535.06,"body":"definitely the youngest person"},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":1532.06,"endTime":1535.06,"body":"there. And then he looked like"},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":1535.06,"endTime":1538.57,"body":"the youngest person there by"},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":1535.06,"endTime":1538.57,"body":"like, 15 years, because he"},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":1538.6,"endTime":1544.36,"body":"looked like he was 14. And I met"},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":1538.6,"endTime":1544.36,"body":"him. And I was with Doug Dubois,"},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":1544.36,"endTime":1549.52,"body":"who is a friend, and who, on"},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":1544.36,"endTime":1549.52,"body":"many occasions had raved about"},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":1549.52,"endTime":1555.16,"body":"his experience working with you,"},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":1549.52,"endTime":1555.16,"body":"on My Last Day at Seventeen. And"},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":1555.19,"endTime":1560.26,"body":"which is a book that I love. So"},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":1555.19,"endTime":1560.26,"body":"I had that kind of on one side"},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":1560.29,"endTime":1565.12,"body":"of my head, and then I meet"},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":1560.29,"endTime":1565.12,"body":"Drew, and we're just chatting"},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":1565.12,"endTime":1569.23,"body":"and later on, I looked up his"},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":1565.12,"endTime":1569.23,"body":"work and was like, This is so"},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":1569.23,"endTime":1574.72,"body":"strong. And I was just starting"},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":1569.23,"endTime":1574.72,"body":"Yoffy Press. So he and I spoke"},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":1574.72,"endTime":1578.5,"body":"for a long time, at least a year"},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":1574.72,"endTime":1578.5,"body":"before we decided we would work"},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":1578.5,"endTime":1581.29,"body":"together. And we decided that"},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":1578.5,"endTime":1581.29,"body":"the design was going to be"},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":1581.29,"endTime":1585.64,"body":"really important with this book."},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":1581.29,"endTime":1585.64,"body":"So I thought of you immediately."},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":1585.64,"endTime":1590.11,"body":"And I think maybe Doug did an"},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":1585.64,"endTime":1590.11,"body":"email intro and I'm telling him"},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":1590.11,"endTime":1594.1,"body":"back and forth, like how do you"},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":1590.11,"endTime":1594.1,"body":"work? Can I hire you? And then I"},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":1594.1,"endTime":1597.55,"body":"was like, okay, so let me just"},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":1594.1,"endTime":1597.55,"body":"tell you the name of the artist,"},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":1597.55,"endTime":1601.96,"body":"so you can look and see if"},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":1597.55,"endTime":1601.96,"body":"you're even interested. And you"},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":1601.96,"endTime":1606.19,"body":"wrote back right away and said"},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":1601.96,"endTime":1606.19,"body":"that you just been to Foam,"},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":1609.79,"endTime":1613.87,"body":"Unseen in Amsterdam, and that"},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":1609.79,"endTime":1613.87,"body":"for days, you looked at all of"},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":1613.87,"endTime":1616.81,"body":"this work, and you came back"},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":1613.87,"endTime":1616.81,"body":"with one name in your notebook,"},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":1616.81,"endTime":1621.01,"body":"and it was Drew Nikonowicz. So"},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":1616.81,"endTime":1621.01,"body":"back to that first look. What"},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":1621.01,"endTime":1623.5,"body":"was your impression of Drew's"},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":1621.01,"endTime":1623.5,"body":"work? And what did writing his"},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":1623.5,"endTime":1625.93,"body":"name down in the notebook mean?"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1626.29,"endTime":1628.75,"body":"Yeah, it's still"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1626.29,"endTime":1628.75,"body":"if you reconstruct it, this is"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1628.75,"endTime":1632.77,"body":"exactly how I recollect it. I"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1628.75,"endTime":1632.77,"body":"mean, this is still for me, it's"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1632.77,"endTime":1635.86,"body":"a bit unbelievable story that it"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1632.77,"endTime":1635.86,"body":"happened like this also timing"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1635.86,"endTime":1640.09,"body":"wise that, first indeed, we were"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1635.86,"endTime":1640.09,"body":"exploring, in general how to"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1640.09,"endTime":1642.79,"body":"work together, and then you"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1640.09,"endTime":1642.79,"body":"mentioned his name. And then"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1642.79,"endTime":1646.81,"body":"really a few days, before that,"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1642.79,"endTime":1646.81,"body":"I saw his work at the Aperture"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1648.4,"endTime":1657.28,"body":"stand at Unseen. And why I wrote"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1648.4,"endTime":1657.28,"body":"his name, if I go to these kinds"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1657.28,"endTime":1663.16,"body":"of events, they're always a bit"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1657.28,"endTime":1663.16,"body":"overwhelming. So I, I walk"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1663.16,"endTime":1668.65,"body":"around quite quickly, a lot of"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1663.16,"endTime":1668.65,"body":"times, and then I do another"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1668.65,"endTime":1673.84,"body":"round and another round. And"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1668.65,"endTime":1673.84,"body":"then if I'm curious, if I feel"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1674.83,"endTime":1677.65,"body":"that something is appealing, or"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1674.83,"endTime":1677.65,"body":"that I want to know more about"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1677.65,"endTime":1683.2,"body":"what's intriguing, then I write"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1677.65,"endTime":1683.2,"body":"the name down, because I don't"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1683.2,"endTime":1686.71,"body":"want to, I mean, you can Google"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1683.2,"endTime":1686.71,"body":"on the thing, but I want to"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1686.74,"endTime":1692.32,"body":"postpone it and take my time to"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1686.74,"endTime":1692.32,"body":"really study it. And to"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1692.32,"endTime":1697.54,"body":"understand it more, you see the"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1692.32,"endTime":1697.54,"body":"work, and then you have ideas in"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1697.54,"endTime":1701.32,"body":"your head where it comes from."},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1697.54,"endTime":1701.32,"body":"But I'm not going to read into"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1701.32,"endTime":1706.18,"body":"it, so it's more that I feel the"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1701.32,"endTime":1706.18,"body":"need to check my intuition"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1706.66,"endTime":1713.71,"body":"afterwards. Yeah, and there was"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1706.66,"endTime":1713.71,"body":"something in his work or in his"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1713.77,"endTime":1719.17,"body":"view on using the medium and"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1713.77,"endTime":1719.17,"body":"also reflecting on the medium"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1721.42,"endTime":1728.14,"body":"that I recognized about how I"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1721.42,"endTime":1728.14,"body":"was thinking, every now and then"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1728.62,"endTime":1732.01,"body":"how I look at photography and"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1728.62,"endTime":1732.01,"body":"the role of photography and also"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1732.01,"endTime":1737.95,"body":"in the relation to landscape. So"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1732.01,"endTime":1737.95,"body":"there was some sort of similar"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1737.98,"endTime":1742.24,"body":"or familiar look on things, but"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1737.98,"endTime":1742.24,"body":"in a very fresh and new way for"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1742.24,"endTime":1745.96,"body":"me. So that's why I wrote his"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1742.24,"endTime":1745.96,"body":"name down. And then there was"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1745.96,"endTime":1750.46,"body":"this crazy fortunate event that"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1745.96,"endTime":1750.46,"body":"you already had plans working"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1750.46,"endTime":1756.61,"body":"with him. And then we decided to"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1750.46,"endTime":1756.61,"body":"share and co-publish it, which"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1756.61,"endTime":1761.41,"body":"I'm still happy with that we did"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1756.61,"endTime":1761.41,"body":"that. Yeah, I think Drew has"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1761.41,"endTime":1767.08,"body":"this this amazing quality of"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1761.41,"endTime":1767.08,"body":"looking at things and"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1767.08,"endTime":1771.64,"body":"investigating things in a"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1767.08,"endTime":1771.64,"body":"theoretical way, which is at the"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1771.64,"endTime":1776.29,"body":"same time, aesthetical way and"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1771.64,"endTime":1776.29,"body":"reflecting way and it's like a"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1776.74,"endTime":1782.8,"body":"it's a loop of things. And"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1776.74,"endTime":1782.8,"body":"always you're not really sure"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1782.8,"endTime":1787.6,"body":"what you're looking at and in a"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1782.8,"endTime":1787.6,"body":"very intriguing way. So that's"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1787.6,"endTime":1788.35,"body":"very appealing."},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":1789.02,"endTime":1791.36,"body":"When you and"},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":1789.02,"endTime":1791.36,"body":"Drew work together he came over"},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":1791.6,"endTime":1795.35,"body":"and you guys spent a few days"},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":1791.6,"endTime":1795.35,"body":"and now that's not an option. So"},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":1795.35,"endTime":1798.23,"body":"we're also working on Jon"},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":1795.35,"endTime":1798.23,"body":"Horvath's book, This Is Bliss"},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":1798.23,"endTime":1802.13,"body":"and so that's not an option. And"},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":1798.23,"endTime":1802.13,"body":"I suppose hasn't been an option"},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":1802.13,"endTime":1807.26,"body":"for you in the past year. Has"},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":1802.13,"endTime":1807.26,"body":"COVID made it more difficult or"},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":1807.26,"endTime":1810.8,"body":"have you realized that you can"},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":1807.26,"endTime":1810.8,"body":"be just as effective and"},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":1810.8,"endTime":1813.83,"body":"collaborating with an artist"},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":1810.8,"endTime":1813.83,"body":"online?"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1814.32,"endTime":1819.72,"body":"Yeah, definitely."},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1814.32,"endTime":1819.72,"body":"It's in that sense. I wouldn't"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1819.72,"endTime":1825.18,"body":"say it made it more easy. But I"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1819.72,"endTime":1825.18,"body":"was already very familiar with"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1825.21,"endTime":1829.2,"body":"with working remotely with"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1825.21,"endTime":1829.2,"body":"people. The first book I did"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1829.2,"endTime":1834.72,"body":"with Aperture, was with Rinko"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1829.2,"endTime":1834.72,"body":"Kawauchi, she was in Japan, I"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1834.72,"endTime":1839.22,"body":"was in Amsterdam, and Lesley"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1834.72,"endTime":1839.22,"body":"Martin from Aperture was in New"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1839.22,"endTime":1841.92,"body":"York. So that's three impossible"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1839.22,"endTime":1841.92,"body":"time zones, there's always"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1841.92,"endTime":1847.47,"body":"somebody sleeping, so that it's"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1841.92,"endTime":1847.47,"body":"hard to even make a Skype call"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1847.47,"endTime":1851.76,"body":"together. But it's okay, we did"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1847.47,"endTime":1851.76,"body":"everything with mail and it's"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1851.76,"endTime":1854.37,"body":"done, then it sort of starts to"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1851.76,"endTime":1854.37,"body":"work in your benefit, because"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1854.37,"endTime":1859.02,"body":"then if I write a mail, then in"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1854.37,"endTime":1859.02,"body":"during my day there, Leslie"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1859.02,"endTime":1862.02,"body":"picks it up during her day, and"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1859.02,"endTime":1862.02,"body":"then Rico Komachi picks it up"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1862.02,"endTime":1867.54,"body":"during her day, and then it's"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1862.02,"endTime":1867.54,"body":"sort of working in a good way,"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1867.54,"endTime":1873.0,"body":"then it's like accelerating."},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1867.54,"endTime":1873.0,"body":"Then if I open the mail a day"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1873.0,"endTime":1874.56,"body":"later than it's already..."},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":1874.95,"endTime":1876.15,"body":"Right, it's"},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":1874.95,"endTime":1876.15,"body":"already gone through the"},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":1876.96,"endTime":1877.11,"body":"circuit."},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1877.11,"endTime":1881.16,"body":"Right, it's going"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1877.11,"endTime":1881.16,"body":"around the world non stop. So"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1882.27,"endTime":1887.73,"body":"definitely with Skype and Zoom"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1882.27,"endTime":1887.73,"body":"things, which I'm, at the moment"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1887.73,"endTime":1891.45,"body":"after a year of COVID completely"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1887.73,"endTime":1891.45,"body":"fed up with, but, uhhh..."},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":1892.17,"endTime":1895.29,"body":"I'm fed up with"},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":1892.17,"endTime":1895.29,"body":"it, and yet I still talk on"},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":1895.29,"endTime":1899.73,"body":"mute, like an idiot. And I'm"},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":1895.29,"endTime":1899.73,"body":"like, we should really have this"},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":1899.73,"endTime":1900.36,"body":"down by now."},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1900.63,"endTime":1907.56,"body":"No, but it's true,"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1900.63,"endTime":1907.56,"body":"but especially Skype, I like"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1907.59,"endTime":1910.47,"body":"because it's also easy to share"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1907.59,"endTime":1910.47,"body":"screen of course with Zoom as"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1910.47,"endTime":1913.98,"body":"well. And then I share my"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1910.47,"endTime":1913.98,"body":"screen, I opened my InDesign"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1913.98,"endTime":1917.28,"body":"file, and then we just talk the"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1913.98,"endTime":1917.28,"body":"way through the InDesign file."},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1917.88,"endTime":1920.58,"body":"And I also do it now with people"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1917.88,"endTime":1920.58,"body":"who come from Rotterdam, which"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1920.58,"endTime":1923.52,"body":"just an hour by train. And, of"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1920.58,"endTime":1923.52,"body":"course, now it's still a"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1923.55,"endTime":1926.82,"body":"lockdown situation. But"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1923.55,"endTime":1926.82,"body":"nevertheless, it made me realize"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1927.3,"endTime":1932.28,"body":"that if this person who I work"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1927.3,"endTime":1932.28,"body":"with in Rotterdam would take a"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1932.28,"endTime":1935.52,"body":"train, he would leave at 9am in"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":1932.28,"endTime":1935.52,"body":"the morning, he's a 10am in"},{"speaker":"Amsterdam, he's 10","startTime":1935.52,"endTime":1939.18,"body":"30 at my"},{"speaker":"Amsterdam, he's 10","startTime":1935.52,"endTime":1939.18,"body":"studio, we have a coffee at 11"},{"speaker":"Amsterdam, he's 10","startTime":1939.18,"endTime":1943.11,"body":"we started work for maybe one"},{"speaker":"Amsterdam, he's 10","startTime":1939.18,"endTime":1943.11,"body":"two hours, then he goes back,"},{"speaker":"Amsterdam, he's 10","startTime":1943.11,"endTime":1945.99,"body":"it's good. It's costing him a"},{"speaker":"Amsterdam, he's 10","startTime":1943.11,"endTime":1945.99,"body":"whole day. Now I check in with"},{"speaker":"Amsterdam, he's 10","startTime":1945.99,"endTime":1950.01,"body":"him at nine o'clock. And at"},{"speaker":"Amsterdam, he's 10","startTime":1945.99,"endTime":1950.01,"body":"9:45, we are done. I have a"},{"speaker":"Amsterdam, he's 10","startTime":1950.01,"endTime":1955.35,"body":"whole day, he has a whole day."},{"speaker":"Amsterdam, he's 10","startTime":1950.01,"endTime":1955.35,"body":"So in that sense, it's"},{"speaker":"Amsterdam, he's 10","startTime":1955.35,"endTime":1960.57,"body":"definitely more efficient to"},{"speaker":"Amsterdam, he's 10","startTime":1955.35,"endTime":1960.57,"body":"work in this way. And it's not"},{"speaker":"Amsterdam, he's 10","startTime":1961.2,"endTime":1967.68,"body":"inferior to the one way over to"},{"speaker":"Amsterdam, he's 10","startTime":1961.2,"endTime":1967.68,"body":"the other way. I think would be"},{"speaker":"Amsterdam, he's 10","startTime":1967.68,"endTime":1970.62,"body":"true. It was it was super nice"},{"speaker":"Amsterdam, he's 10","startTime":1967.68,"endTime":1970.62,"body":"that he that he visited also"},{"speaker":"Amsterdam, he's 10","startTime":1970.62,"endTime":1973.95,"body":"because then we could of course"},{"speaker":"Amsterdam, he's 10","startTime":1970.62,"endTime":1973.95,"body":"talk about paper and these kind"},{"speaker":"Amsterdam, he's 10","startTime":1973.95,"endTime":1977.55,"body":"of things and about tactility"},{"speaker":"Amsterdam, he's 10","startTime":1973.95,"endTime":1977.55,"body":"and the technical part of the"},{"speaker":"Amsterdam, he's 10","startTime":1977.55,"endTime":1980.67,"body":"design process, it's more"},{"speaker":"Amsterdam, he's 10","startTime":1977.55,"endTime":1980.67,"body":"difficult to do online. That's"},{"speaker":"Amsterdam, he's 10","startTime":1980.67,"endTime":1985.14,"body":"more sending back and forth now"},{"speaker":"Amsterdam, he's 10","startTime":1980.67,"endTime":1985.14,"body":"with prints and FedExing things."},{"speaker":"Amsterdam, he's 10","startTime":1985.14,"endTime":1992.94,"body":"So it's not a handicap at all,"},{"speaker":"Amsterdam, he's 10","startTime":1985.14,"endTime":1992.94,"body":"actually, this whole COVID"},{"speaker":"Amsterdam, he's 10","startTime":1992.94,"endTime":1997.32,"body":"situation and all the"},{"speaker":"Amsterdam, he's 10","startTime":1992.94,"endTime":1997.32,"body":"limitations. It's a bit less"},{"speaker":"Amsterdam, he's 10","startTime":1997.86,"endTime":2004.52,"body":"fun, in that sense. That's fine."},{"speaker":"Amsterdam, he's 10","startTime":1997.86,"endTime":2004.52,"body":"Yeah, I mean, but it's okay. I"},{"speaker":"Amsterdam, he's 10","startTime":2004.52,"endTime":2007.43,"body":"don't feel that limited or that"},{"speaker":"Amsterdam, he's 10","startTime":2004.52,"endTime":2007.43,"body":"I designed differently or"},{"speaker":"Amsterdam, he's 10","startTime":2007.76,"endTime":2012.8,"body":"collaborate differently. Still"},{"speaker":"Amsterdam, he's 10","startTime":2007.76,"endTime":2012.8,"body":"with people also, I think Andres"},{"speaker":"Amsterdam, he's 10","startTime":2012.83,"endTime":2017.24,"body":"I met for the first time during"},{"speaker":"Amsterdam, he's 10","startTime":2012.83,"endTime":2017.24,"body":"Paris Photo when the book was"},{"speaker":"Amsterdam, he's 10","startTime":2017.24,"endTime":2022.4,"body":"finished. There was a"},{"speaker":"Amsterdam, he's 10","startTime":2017.24,"endTime":2022.4,"body":"possibility to do things"},{"speaker":"Amsterdam, he's 10","startTime":2022.43,"endTime":2027.65,"body":"together. But we did everything"},{"speaker":"Amsterdam, he's 10","startTime":2022.43,"endTime":2027.65,"body":"remotely and it's okay. Yeah."},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":2029.01,"endTime":2032.94,"body":"So as you know,"},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":2029.01,"endTime":2032.94,"body":"I asked everyone this question,"},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":2033.06,"endTime":2037.74,"body":"and I prepped you, right, yeah."},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":2033.06,"endTime":2037.74,"body":"Okay, because it's been it"},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":2037.74,"endTime":2041.31,"body":"throws everyone off. So I'm"},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":2037.74,"endTime":2041.31,"body":"like, how about we... Okay, so I"},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":2041.31,"endTime":2043.95,"body":"asked everyone this question,"},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":2041.31,"endTime":2043.95,"body":"what was the best career"},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":2043.95,"endTime":2045.12,"body":"decision you've made?"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2046.47,"endTime":2050.79,"body":"Yeah, it's, you"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2046.47,"endTime":2050.79,"body":"prep me but still, it's a heck"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2050.79,"endTime":2055.35,"body":"of a question. Well, it's the"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2050.79,"endTime":2055.35,"body":"easy Greek, rather definitely"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2055.35,"endTime":2064.2,"body":"starting Fw Books. Also, to have"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2055.35,"endTime":2064.2,"body":"that as a, as a playground or"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2064.2,"endTime":2067.77,"body":"also as a I don't want sound"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2064.2,"endTime":2067.77,"body":"corny, but also a bit as a"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2067.77,"endTime":2072.18,"body":"family. It's like a growing"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2067.77,"endTime":2072.18,"body":"group of people, like minded and"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2073.59,"endTime":2077.91,"body":"a lot of them I also call my"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2073.59,"endTime":2077.91,"body":"friends after working with them."},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2078.51,"endTime":2084.54,"body":"You have a special bond. And I"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2078.51,"endTime":2084.54,"body":"also like to be responsible for"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2084.54,"endTime":2088.38,"body":"not just designing but also"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2084.54,"endTime":2088.38,"body":"for..., and then what, like"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2088.41,"endTime":2093.24,"body":"having all these boxes and to"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2088.41,"endTime":2093.24,"body":"push them everywhere and try to"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2093.24,"endTime":2097.2,"body":"make that work, going to fairs."},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2093.24,"endTime":2097.2,"body":"Seeing that part of the"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2097.2,"endTime":2103.89,"body":"spectrum. But also Enter Enter,"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2097.2,"endTime":2103.89,"body":"the project space we have, in my"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2103.89,"endTime":2107.28,"body":"studio I showed  Rebekah"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2103.89,"endTime":2107.28,"body":"Williams from Homer"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2107.28,"endTime":2113.34,"body":"Publications. It's also the same"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2107.28,"endTime":2113.34,"body":"energy that making a book, it's"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2113.34,"endTime":2116.25,"body":"so much more than just designing"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2113.34,"endTime":2116.25,"body":"it's, there's a lot of"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2117.18,"endTime":2119.82,"body":"production of parts, and then"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2117.18,"endTime":2119.82,"body":"the distribution part,"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2119.85,"endTime":2123.69,"body":"designing, conceptualization,"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2119.85,"endTime":2123.69,"body":"but also researching what other"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2123.69,"endTime":2129.18,"body":"people are doing. So, the whole"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2123.69,"endTime":2129.18,"body":"thing I liked very much. And"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2129.18,"endTime":2135.57,"body":"then as a counter, the best"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2129.18,"endTime":2135.57,"body":"decision was also I think,"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2136.35,"endTime":2141.57,"body":"Leslie Martin was one of the"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2136.35,"endTime":2141.57,"body":"first publishers who asked me..."},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2141.57,"endTime":2146.76,"body":"I was doing Fw Books for quite a"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2141.57,"endTime":2146.76,"body":"while, making my books with"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2146.76,"endTime":2150.54,"body":"people, and then she approached"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2146.76,"endTime":2150.54,"body":"me, because she talked with"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2150.54,"endTime":2154.77,"body":"Rinko Kawauchi, if I wanted to"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2150.54,"endTime":2154.77,"body":"collaborate with them. In the"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2154.77,"endTime":2158.79,"body":"beginning, I was a bit hesitant"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2154.77,"endTime":2158.79,"body":"because then I, I felt a bit"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2159.21,"endTime":2164.52,"body":"like, oh, but then what does it"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2159.21,"endTime":2164.52,"body":"mean? And I sensed that I was"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2164.52,"endTime":2167.79,"body":"immediately, I mean, I knew the"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2164.52,"endTime":2167.79,"body":"work of Rinko and I loved it."},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2167.82,"endTime":2173.34,"body":"And I of course I knew Aperture."},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2167.82,"endTime":2173.34,"body":"And there was very, yeah, so it"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2173.34,"endTime":2179.04,"body":"was like, ideal situation. But"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2173.34,"endTime":2179.04,"body":"my doubt was a bit in that, how"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2179.04,"endTime":2182.82,"body":"does this work? Because what I"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2179.04,"endTime":2182.82,"body":"normally do, is I basically can"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2182.82,"endTime":2186.09,"body":"do whatever I like together with"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2182.82,"endTime":2186.09,"body":"the artist involved. But if"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2186.09,"endTime":2194.22,"body":"there's a like other imprint,"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2186.09,"endTime":2194.22,"body":"which of course hold interest in"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2194.22,"endTime":2203.16,"body":"the project as well. I was sort"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2194.22,"endTime":2203.16,"body":"of almost trapped in a sort of"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2203.16,"endTime":2205.77,"body":"self censorship that I thought,"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2203.16,"endTime":2205.77,"body":"Oh, then I have to make a safe"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2205.77,"endTime":2210.33,"body":"book, then I have to make a"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2205.77,"endTime":2210.33,"body":"book, which is not experimental,"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2210.57,"endTime":2213.75,"body":"because then it maybe doesn't"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2210.57,"endTime":2213.75,"body":"sell and I felt very responsible"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2213.75,"endTime":2217.92,"body":"for that. So I was doubting a"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2213.75,"endTime":2217.92,"body":"bit if I should do it. But I was"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2217.92,"endTime":2220.59,"body":"really, really happy that I did"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2217.92,"endTime":2220.59,"body":"it. And then I thought in the"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2220.59,"endTime":2223.62,"body":"beginning, I came up with an"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2220.59,"endTime":2223.62,"body":"idea, which was quite"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2224.25,"endTime":2229.2,"body":"experimental, with printing"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2224.25,"endTime":2229.2,"body":"reversed the images in negative"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2229.2,"endTime":2231.42,"body":"colors on the inside of paper."},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2229.2,"endTime":2231.42,"body":"And you can see...."},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":2231.42,"endTime":2232.71,"body":"I'm obsessed"},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":2231.42,"endTime":2232.71,"body":"with that book."},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2233.55,"endTime":2238.68,"body":"But I never"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2233.55,"endTime":2238.68,"body":"thought they would agree to"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2238.68,"endTime":2242.01,"body":"that, to be honest. But I"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2238.68,"endTime":2242.01,"body":"thought, I want to send it"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2242.49,"endTime":2249.33,"body":"because I think it's a good"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2242.49,"endTime":2249.33,"body":"idea. And at least it's a"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2249.33,"endTime":2252.27,"body":"starting point. Also, to see"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2249.33,"endTime":2252.27,"body":"what's my position? What do you"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2252.27,"endTime":2256.59,"body":"want from me? And what can I do"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2252.27,"endTime":2256.59,"body":"for you? And then immediately"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2257.55,"endTime":2263.34,"body":"Rinko and Leslie they both"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2257.55,"endTime":2263.34,"body":"embraced it fully, without any"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2263.34,"endTime":2267.33,"body":"reservation. So that really was"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2263.34,"endTime":2267.33,"body":"an important moment, because"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2267.33,"endTime":2275.73,"body":"then I thought, Okay, this is"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2267.33,"endTime":2275.73,"body":"the biggest limit, you can limit"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2275.73,"endTime":2276.6,"body":"yourself so much."},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":2276.88,"endTime":2278.11,"body":"You can make an"},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":2276.88,"endTime":2278.11,"body":"assumption...."},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2278.11,"endTime":2280.45,"body":"It's an assumption"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2278.11,"endTime":2280.45,"body":"to think they want this kind of"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2280.45,"endTime":2285.58,"body":"book. And then you start making"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2280.45,"endTime":2285.58,"body":"that kind of book. And then you"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2285.58,"endTime":2290.86,"body":"somehow lose yourself. And also,"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2285.58,"endTime":2290.86,"body":"so that was for me an important"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2291.16,"endTime":2291.46,"body":"point."},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":2291.46,"endTime":2293.41,"body":"You realized you"},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":2291.46,"endTime":2293.41,"body":"could be authentic as a"},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":2293.41,"endTime":2297.34,"body":"designer, even if you weren't"},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":2293.41,"endTime":2297.34,"body":"working within your own empire."},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2297.01,"endTime":2303.85,"body":"And then it really"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2297.01,"endTime":2303.85,"body":"got better. If I look back at"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2303.85,"endTime":2309.88,"body":"the first proposal, and it even"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2303.85,"endTime":2309.88,"body":"got more bit crazy during the"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2309.88,"endTime":2315.04,"body":"process. And Leslie and"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2309.88,"endTime":2315.04,"body":"Rinko were really encouraging m"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2315.04,"endTime":2319.72,"body":"to push it really to the maxim"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2315.04,"endTime":2319.72,"body":"m."},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":2321.96,"endTime":2325.68,"body":"Awesome. So can"},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":2321.96,"endTime":2325.68,"body":"you talk about a wrong turn you"},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":2325.68,"endTime":2327.15,"body":"made and what you learned from"},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":2325.68,"endTime":2327.15,"body":"it?"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2328.65,"endTime":2337.14,"body":"Yeah, it's that"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2328.65,"endTime":2337.14,"body":"sometimes you ignore your"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2337.14,"endTime":2345.18,"body":"instinct. Because sometimes I"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2337.14,"endTime":2345.18,"body":"get the question if I want to"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2345.21,"endTime":2350.28,"body":"work on a project and then the"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2345.21,"endTime":2350.28,"body":"work is great. But then you"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2350.28,"endTime":2357.54,"body":"start working and you feel that"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2350.28,"endTime":2357.54,"body":"the attitudes are not aligned or"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2357.54,"endTime":2364.41,"body":"that you're not like minded."},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2357.54,"endTime":2364.41,"body":"Well, basically, the definition"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2364.41,"endTime":2369.09,"body":"of making a good book is very"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2364.41,"endTime":2369.09,"body":"subjective. And it goes from"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2369.09,"endTime":2372.99,"body":"binders to printers to people or"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2369.09,"endTime":2372.99,"body":"to artists involved or to"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2372.99,"endTime":2376.83,"body":"designers. They all have their"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2372.99,"endTime":2376.83,"body":"own definition. And in the"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2376.83,"endTime":2381.39,"body":"beginning, I was a bit naive and"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2376.83,"endTime":2381.39,"body":"thinking that if you make a good"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2381.39,"endTime":2387.27,"body":"book, it's okay. But sometimes"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2381.39,"endTime":2387.27,"body":"people are looking for a"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2387.27,"endTime":2395.28,"body":"different kind of good book. And"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2387.27,"endTime":2395.28,"body":"then I was sort of trapped"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2395.31,"endTime":2399.12,"body":"between my own ideas and"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2395.31,"endTime":2399.12,"body":"understanding the wishes of"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2399.12,"endTime":2403.29,"body":"somebody else. And then you end"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2399.12,"endTime":2403.29,"body":"up sort of with a Frankenstein"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2403.29,"endTime":2411.15,"body":"kind of thing. And you know it"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2403.29,"endTime":2411.15,"body":"when you're making it, but then"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2411.15,"endTime":2416.19,"body":"at a certain point, you spent"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2411.15,"endTime":2416.19,"body":"one and a half years working on"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2416.19,"endTime":2420.48,"body":"it, and the other person as"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2416.19,"endTime":2420.48,"body":"well. And then you think Yeah,"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2420.48,"endTime":2423.18,"body":"what, what, what's now best to"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2420.48,"endTime":2423.18,"body":"do? Should we just cancel it?"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2423.21,"endTime":2427.38,"body":"Because it's sort of not going"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2423.21,"endTime":2427.38,"body":"anywhere? But it's very painful"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2427.38,"endTime":2431.73,"body":"for everybody involved. But I"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2427.38,"endTime":2431.73,"body":"had to do that once or twice. Or"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2431.73,"endTime":2434.22,"body":"maybe? Well, yeah, well, a few"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2431.73,"endTime":2434.22,"body":"times."},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":2435.38,"endTime":2437.57,"body":"Where you just"},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":2435.38,"endTime":2437.57,"body":"said, This isn't working and"},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":2438.14,"endTime":2438.74,"body":"stopped?"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":2438.8,"endTime":2439.37,"body":"Yeah"},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":2439.76,"endTime":2442.1,"body":"As opposed to"},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":2439.76,"endTime":2442.1,"body":"just putting out something that"},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":2442.1,"endTime":2443.09,"body":"you knew wasn't working."},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2442.959,"endTime":2445.659,"body":"Yeah, I did that"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2442.959,"endTime":2445.659,"body":"also in the past, a few times."},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2445.659,"endTime":2450.339,"body":"And I know, that's extremely"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2445.659,"endTime":2450.339,"body":"frustrating for the rest of your"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2450.339,"endTime":2455.109,"body":"life to make it very dramatic,"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2450.339,"endTime":2455.109,"body":"because once it's there, you're"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2455.109,"endTime":2459.339,"body":"confronted with it. Every moment"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2455.109,"endTime":2459.339,"body":"you think about it, it's there."},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2459.849,"endTime":2463.749,"body":"And I think, well, it's the"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2459.849,"endTime":2463.749,"body":"lesson I learned from this is"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2463.779,"endTime":2468.759,"body":"that until something is really"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2463.779,"endTime":2468.759,"body":"finished, everything should be"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2468.759,"endTime":2473.589,"body":"on the table and should be in th"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2468.759,"endTime":2473.589,"body":"most drastic way. You shoul"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2474.159,"endTime":2479.799,"body":"be able to talk about it. And i"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2474.159,"endTime":2479.799,"body":"'s also happened to me once"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2479.799,"endTime":2482.559,"body":"hat I was making a design of a"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2479.799,"endTime":2482.559,"body":"book, and then the artist invo"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2482.559,"endTime":2488.919,"body":"ved changed publisher. So"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2482.559,"endTime":2488.919,"body":"I was working on a book for"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2488.919,"endTime":2492.189,"body":"two years, and then they changed"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2488.919,"endTime":2492.189,"body":"publisher, but then the publi"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2492.219,"endTime":2494.649,"body":"her had their own in house desig"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2492.219,"endTime":2494.649,"body":"er. So I was kicked out to it s"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2494.649,"endTime":2498.489,"body":"rt of, but I understood that an"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2494.649,"endTime":2498.489,"body":"I wasn't angry. I mean, it"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2498.489,"endTime":2505.719,"body":"as a bit silly for my time."},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2498.489,"endTime":2505.719,"body":"But that's how things go. An"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2505.749,"endTime":2511.209,"body":"yeah, I think it's important to"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2505.749,"endTime":2511.209,"body":"have always this open discussio"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2512.109,"endTime":2515.709,"body":". And also to have these thin"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2512.109,"endTime":2515.709,"body":"s in hindsight to think Yeah"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2515.709,"endTime":2519.489,"body":"I thought that would be a goo"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2515.709,"endTime":2519.489,"body":"idea. But I think it can be"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2519.489,"endTime":2522.549,"body":"ometimes frustrating with p"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2519.489,"endTime":2522.549,"body":"ople if you work in this"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2522.549,"endTime":2526.869,"body":"ay. Because it can feel that i"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2522.549,"endTime":2526.869,"body":"'s out of the blue that you thin"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2526.869,"endTime":2529.419,"body":"I'm not sure if this is worki"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2526.869,"endTime":2529.419,"body":"g. But yeah, I try to be as ho"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2529.419,"endTime":2535.959,"body":"est and open about it as possibl"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2529.419,"endTime":2535.959,"body":". But it can be painful every"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2535.959,"endTime":2538.839,"body":"ow and then. But I refuse to"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2535.959,"endTime":2538.839,"body":"ake something that I don't real"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2538.839,"endTime":2544.119,"body":"y agree to, I can't, I cannot d"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2538.839,"endTime":2544.119,"body":"it. Because then I get lack of"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2544.119,"endTime":2548.019,"body":"nterest and then I think oh wh"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2544.119,"endTime":2548.019,"body":"tever, I will send the invoice a"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2548.019,"endTime":2551.499,"body":"d have fun with the whole thin"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2548.019,"endTime":2551.499,"body":". That's making me feel reall"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2551.499,"endTime":2556.719,"body":"bad if I do this kind of thi"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2551.499,"endTime":2556.719,"body":"gs."},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":2558.02,"endTime":2560.57,"body":"Right. Now, you"},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":2558.02,"endTime":2560.57,"body":"know the consequences."},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2560.66,"endTime":2563.87,"body":"Exactly. And I"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2560.66,"endTime":2563.87,"body":"always try to be, if this"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2563.87,"endTime":2566.45,"body":"happens now, it sounds like it's"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2563.87,"endTime":2566.45,"body":"happening every day. But it"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2566.45,"endTime":2574.31,"body":"really happens only a few times"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2566.45,"endTime":2574.31,"body":"in the past 15 years, or 20. I"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2574.31,"endTime":2577.52,"body":"try to be productive, that you"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2574.31,"endTime":2577.52,"body":"link people to other people who"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2577.52,"endTime":2582.26,"body":"you think they are great, and"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2577.52,"endTime":2582.26,"body":"introduce them to them and be"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2582.26,"endTime":2582.86,"body":"supportive."},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":2583.62,"endTime":2588.33,"body":"Yeah. So last"},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":2583.62,"endTime":2588.33,"body":"question. Um, you've designed, I"},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":2588.33,"endTime":2591.42,"body":"saw over 300 books and..."},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2591.42,"endTime":2596.43,"body":"I stopped"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2591.42,"endTime":2596.43,"body":"counting. I don't know, I can"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2596.43,"endTime":2597.78,"body":"count, but I have no idea."},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":2597.0,"endTime":2602.31,"body":"You've designed"},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":2597.0,"endTime":2602.31,"body":"lots of books, some of which"},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":2602.31,"endTime":2606.51,"body":"you've also authored or edited,"},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":2602.31,"endTime":2606.51,"body":"you created a long form film"},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":2606.54,"endTime":2610.02,"body":"about the American landscape."},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":2606.54,"endTime":2610.02,"body":"You have a publishing imprint"},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":2610.02,"endTime":2614.85,"body":"and a project space, you've won"},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":2610.02,"endTime":2614.85,"body":"awards. Do you feel like you've"},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":2614.85,"endTime":2618.06,"body":"accomplished everything that"},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":2614.85,"endTime":2618.06,"body":"you'd originally set out to do"},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":2618.06,"endTime":2622.68,"body":"in the book space or is there"},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":2618.06,"endTime":2622.68,"body":"still a lot you want to do or"},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":2622.68,"endTime":2623.16,"body":"both?"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2629.03,"endTime":2634.7,"body":"Well, the question"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2629.03,"endTime":2634.7,"body":"I can answer on various levels,"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2634.7,"endTime":2638.09,"body":"because I'm quite happy with how"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2634.7,"endTime":2638.09,"body":"things were going so far. And"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2638.09,"endTime":2642.56,"body":"especially the wish to do a"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2638.09,"endTime":2642.56,"body":"project space to have a project"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2642.56,"endTime":2646.82,"body":"space like Enter Enter. That was"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2642.56,"endTime":2646.82,"body":"definitely on my list, which was"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2646.85,"endTime":2652.61,"body":"nice. But it only works if you"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2646.85,"endTime":2652.61,"body":"have a nice place and the"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2652.61,"endTime":2656.09,"body":"circumstances were ideal. We can"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2652.61,"endTime":2656.09,"body":"do this for five years at least"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2656.12,"endTime":2666.68,"body":"to see to see if it works. And"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2656.12,"endTime":2666.68,"body":"that's really great. Is there"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2666.68,"endTime":2672.62,"body":"anything else that I look"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2666.68,"endTime":2672.62,"body":"forward to now? I hope to be"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2672.62,"endTime":2678.89,"body":"able to stay so lucky to meet"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2672.62,"endTime":2678.89,"body":"interesting people with"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2678.89,"endTime":2681.68,"body":"interesting questions because"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2678.89,"endTime":2681.68,"body":"that's really what what I need."},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2684.35,"endTime":2689.3,"body":"Or of course, I can also"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2684.35,"endTime":2689.3,"body":"influence it myself, but I have"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2689.3,"endTime":2689.45,"body":"to..."},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":2689.45,"endTime":2691.37,"body":"Fuel your"},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":2689.45,"endTime":2691.37,"body":"creativity and..."},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2691.36,"endTime":2695.14,"body":"Yeah, and also to"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2691.36,"endTime":2695.14,"body":"keep going and it's growing. I"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2695.2,"endTime":2701.8,"body":"still see it as a growing thing."},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2695.2,"endTime":2701.8,"body":"And the practices in that sense"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2701.8,"endTime":2710.5,"body":"are quite dynamic. But yeah, I"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2701.8,"endTime":2710.5,"body":"don't have like a wish list of"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2710.5,"endTime":2720.19,"body":"that sense, I take things as"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2710.5,"endTime":2720.19,"body":"they as they come. And I really"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2720.19,"endTime":2726.04,"body":"believe in a sort of natural way"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2720.19,"endTime":2726.04,"body":"of how things evolve and go and"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2727.54,"endTime":2732.25,"body":"I'm just happy that there's also"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2727.54,"endTime":2732.25,"body":"this mix of commissioned work"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2732.25,"endTime":2740.14,"body":"and self initiated work. Well,"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2732.25,"endTime":2740.14,"body":"maybe there is, there's one"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2740.14,"endTime":2745.39,"body":"thing, which is also good to say"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2740.14,"endTime":2745.39,"body":"out loud, to make it more"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2746.59,"endTime":2752.23,"body":"possible for me. You mentioned"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2746.59,"endTime":2752.23,"body":"this movie about the Mother"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2752.23,"endTime":2755.02,"body":"Road, and I did a few other"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2752.23,"endTime":2755.02,"body":"things about the American"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2755.02,"endTime":2759.52,"body":"landscape. It's a bit like"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2755.02,"endTime":2759.52,"body":"playful research, a case study,"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2760.69,"endTime":2766.9,"body":"theoretical thing, experimental,"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2760.69,"endTime":2766.9,"body":"like small experiments around"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2766.9,"endTime":2771.1,"body":"the perception of the American"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2766.9,"endTime":2771.1,"body":"landscape. And for, I think,"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2771.1,"endTime":2774.64,"body":"three or four years, or even"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2771.1,"endTime":2774.64,"body":"longer, I'm afraid. I carry this"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2774.64,"endTime":2781.39,"body":"folder around; like a growing"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2774.64,"endTime":2781.39,"body":"book with self written texts and"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2781.42,"endTime":2784.75,"body":"small experiments. And it's, I"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2781.42,"endTime":2784.75,"body":"think it's already 500 pages."},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2785.77,"endTime":2788.62,"body":"I'm not sure if I will ever"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2785.77,"endTime":2788.62,"body":"finish it or that if that's the"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2788.62,"endTime":2794.62,"body":"purpose, but maybe that's,"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2788.62,"endTime":2794.62,"body":"that's something which in the"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2794.62,"endTime":2800.59,"body":"end, I would regret if I"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2794.62,"endTime":2800.59,"body":"wouldn't finish that one book."},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":2801.19,"endTime":2802.36,"body":"Or do something"},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":2801.19,"endTime":2802.36,"body":"with it."},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2802.36,"endTime":2804.76,"body":"Yes, do something"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2802.36,"endTime":2804.76,"body":"with it. And I do little things"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2804.76,"endTime":2809.11,"body":"with it every now and then. Make"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2804.76,"endTime":2809.11,"body":"small chapters, visual, like the"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2809.11,"endTime":2813.01,"body":"movie or like, look at point,"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2809.11,"endTime":2813.01,"body":"another publication or objects"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2813.01,"endTime":2819.22,"body":"in mirror, or so every now and"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2813.01,"endTime":2819.22,"body":"then I use it. But like the"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2819.22,"endTime":2824.05,"body":"overall, like almost an"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2819.22,"endTime":2824.05,"body":"encyclopedic kind of volume."},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2825.07,"endTime":2827.95,"body":"That's something that would be"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2825.07,"endTime":2827.95,"body":"nice if that would ever be"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2827.95,"endTime":2831.49,"body":"there. Yeah. But I have to push"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2827.95,"endTime":2831.49,"body":"that myself. So then there's"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2831.49,"endTime":2836.17,"body":"always everyday life, which"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2831.49,"endTime":2836.17,"body":"takes over and deadlines of"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2836.17,"endTime":2839.14,"body":"other people as well. But that"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2836.17,"endTime":2839.14,"body":"would be nice."},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":2840.28,"endTime":2841.27,"body":"Yeah, I'd love"},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":2840.28,"endTime":2841.27,"body":"to see it."},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2841.87,"endTime":2842.68,"body":"Yeah, me too."},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":2845.44,"endTime":2847.18,"body":"I really"},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":2845.44,"endTime":2847.18,"body":"appreciate you doing this with"},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":2847.18,"endTime":2852.28,"body":"me today was wonderful, and"},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":2847.18,"endTime":2852.28,"body":"informative and interesting and"},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":2852.58,"endTime":2854.08,"body":"inspiring to me for sure."},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2854.51,"endTime":2856.16,"body":"Well, thanks a"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2854.51,"endTime":2856.16,"body":"lot. It was super nice"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2856.4,"endTime":2860.3,"body":"invitation. And I would be most"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2856.4,"endTime":2860.3,"body":"happy to talk to you."},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2867.23,"endTime":2869.6,"body":"Just five hour difference."},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2867.23,"endTime":2869.6,"body":"Normally, it's always six."},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":2870.14,"endTime":2872.84,"body":"Do you not do"},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":2870.14,"endTime":2872.84,"body":"daylight savings where you are?"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2873.35,"endTime":2876.02,"body":"Yeah, they did."},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2873.35,"endTime":2876.02,"body":"But they do it this weekend. So"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2876.02,"endTime":2877.64,"body":"I think it's just I don't know."},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":2878.33,"endTime":2880.13,"body":"Who decides"},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":2878.33,"endTime":2880.13,"body":"these things?"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2880.46,"endTime":2881.18,"body":"I don't know."},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":2881.51,"endTime":2883.88,"body":"Because there's"},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":2881.51,"endTime":2883.88,"body":"also like a couple of places in"},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":2883.88,"endTime":2885.41,"body":"the US that don't do it at all."},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2886.2,"endTime":2888.12,"body":"Oh, yeah. That's"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2886.2,"endTime":2888.12,"body":"what we noticed when we were"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2888.12,"endTime":2892.26,"body":"traveling through different"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2888.12,"endTime":2892.26,"body":"states. Then once we were in I"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2892.26,"endTime":2897.81,"body":"think it was Arizona or"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2892.26,"endTime":2897.81,"body":"something and we were there an"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2897.81,"endTime":2902.94,"body":"hour early for the cinema. So,"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2897.81,"endTime":2902.94,"body":"well anyway, I don't know who"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2902.94,"endTime":2904.11,"body":"decides it? I think it's..."},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":2904.38,"endTime":2906.66,"body":"Yeah, and then"},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":2904.38,"endTime":2906.66,"body":"why wouldn't the whole world"},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":2906.66,"endTime":2912.48,"body":"coordinate if you are on board"},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":2906.66,"endTime":2912.48,"body":"with doing it? Why not all do it"},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":2912.48,"endTime":2913.29,"body":"the same weekend?"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2914.1,"endTime":2917.64,"body":"Yeah, yeah,"},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2914.1,"endTime":2917.64,"body":"exactly. I also have no idea."},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":2919.93,"endTime":2921.67,"body":"This needs"},{"speaker":"Jennifer Yoffy","startTime":2919.93,"endTime":2921.67,"body":"further investigation."},{"speaker":"Hans Gremmen","startTime":2921.85,"endTime":2922.57,"body":"Definitely."}]}