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The Tefilah Podcast
The Tefilah Podcast
Tehilim 136: Hallel ha'Gadol (Part 2 - Our Theory)
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Length: 1 hour 1 minutes
Synopsis: This evening (3/11/26), in our Wednesday night Tehilim shiur, we began by reviewing the translation and questions from last time, and then set out to explain the perek. Thankfully, we managed to come up with an excellent approach, inspired in part by Saadia Gaon and Rambam with a minor assist from Radak and Meiri. I'm really happy with what we said, and I'm looking forward to delving into one of the full-length interpretations of the meforshim next time!
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מקורות:
תהלים קלו
פירוש רס"ג
רד"ק - תהלים קלו:כה-כו
מאירי - תהלים קלו:כה-כו
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Okay, so this is day two of uh Tilm Kuflamadvav Halaha Gadal. So we'll do as we usually do as we'll review with the uh uh the Hebrew and the English. I tightened up the translation a little bit, but didn't make any major changes. And then we'll uh we'll try to the goal will be to analyze on our own today. Uh I do think I found one of the Mufarshim that is going to give us a framework, but we're not gonna go puzzle by puzzle. I think we have a good chance of getting our own theory today because I have like, I don't know, like 89% of an idea. Um, okay. Hodulasham kitov kilom kostow, give thanks to Hashem for he is good. Um sorry, yeah. Hodulashem kitov kilom khastov for his kindness is forever. Uhulokha Elohim Kilon Khastou, give thanks. So I translated, I I changed this. I think last time we said the god of the and then we tried to translate Elohim as either powers, um, angels, uh judges, and then other gods. I I liked, I forgot who we read last time that said uh this is like Shirha Shirim or Evadavadim, the ultimate power, I think is the best way to say this. And I think that's like getting in uh not getting mixed up into the uh uh controversial issues. Yeah, so I think that's good, and it also fits in with the next part. Um give thanks to the ultimate master. Same thing there. Umse kedos levadou. Oh, let me turn, make sure the volume is up. Hold on. Always the problem with the yeshiva setup. It automatically turns my volume down. Okay. Umse niflaos kedalos lavadou, kill kasto, to him who alone should be him or to he? To he. I think to him. To him, yeah. To him who alone performs great wonders, kill. Umse hashemaim bispuna, kila lamchasto, to the one who makes heavens with understanding, his kindness is forever. Uh rokaha arsaim to the one who spreads out the lands upon the waters, um, his kindness is forever. Umse orim gadolim kila lam chasto to the one who makes great lights, his kindness is forever. S Hashemesh Lemem Shellas Bayom, Kila Lam Chasto, the sun for dominion over the day, uh for his kindness is forever. Shayerech Vakokhovim Lemem Shhlos Palaila Kilam Khash, the moon and the stars for the dominions overnight, for his kindness is forever. Um to the smiter of Egypt. I'm gonna say to the one who smites to the to the why is this not? O bang. Okay, hold on. I think I have to close this and open it again. Um, so the plot thickens. iPhone is not Mojo 11. Uh oh, okay. Uh um okay. All right, let's see. Not an Iranian spy. Um, actually, no, maybe it should be an Iranian spy. Learn some to help learn about what God did for the Jews and don't mess. Um, okay, what was I gonna change? Oh, to the one who smites, right? To the to the one who smites Egypt through their firstborns. So I I think through the firstborns works either in the sense of it's referring to Dafka to Makas Pokoros, he he smites Egypt by killing the firstborns, or the alluding to the ghazal of uh you know the that they had an uprising. No, sorry, uh yeah, Bayota Israel Mitocham Kilun Khasto. Uh and Israel went out from the its midst, his kindness is forever. Biatakal is run to tuya kilunchash with a strong hand and outstretched arm, his kindness is forever. Ligozir Yamsuf Ligzaram Kilun Khasteh. So the one who splits the Sea of Reeds into uh divisions, uh his kindness is forever. Vnir Paro Vhilobyam Suf Kilun Khasto. Um we I think uh oh sorry, did I skip one? He caused Israel to pass in its mist. Uh he tumbled Parl and his army in the Sea of Reeds, Kilun Khasto. I think I like that translation best. Lamolik Amal Bamibar, Kilun Khasto, to the one who guides his people in the wilderness, his kindness is forever. Lemakim Melachim Kadolim, Kilun Khasto, uh to the one who who um smites great kings, his kindness is forever. Uh Sichon Melachai Muri, Kilun Khasto, uh to the one who um oh sorry, did I skip one? Yeah, Vayaharug Malachim Adirim Kilun Khasto, and he killed majestic kings, his kindness is forever. Lisikon Melchimori, uh the Sihon king of the Emirates, Kilun Khasto, his kindness is forever. Lokum Melechabashan, Kilun Khasto, to uh and O Kil the king of the Bashan, his kindness is forever. Benasan Artsam Lanachla, he gave their land as an inheritance, Kilun Khasto, his kindness is forever. Um Nahla Lisra Alhdo Kilun Khosto, an inheritance to Israel's servant, his kindness is forever. Shibish Linu Zaharlanu, uh that in our lowliness he remembered us, his kindness kilom khso, his kindness is forever. Bayifra Kinum Mitraina Kilum Khostoh, he and he delivered us from our distresses, his kindness is forever. Um sin lachem lechholbassar. Did I skip one? No. No sin lachem lechobasar. He gives bread to all flesh. I'm gonna go ahead and say he gives food to all flesh. I know this is a whole thing that like lachem can mean bread, but it could also mean food because uh animals don't eat bread, right? That's not a thing, right? So he gives food to all flesh, or gives sustenance, probably. He gives sustenance. He shouldn't feed those. See, we used to have a guy in the S Shiva named David Lichter, who was an expert on birds, and he would warn people not to feed bread to the birds because it's bad for them. But yeah, it's bad for them, yeah. PSA. Um, and then uh hodul hashabim kid. Um, give thanks to the God of the heavens. Uh, his kindness is forever. Okay, so as you can see from the um what do you call it, from the uh uh colors. So we said the pivot point is, or at least I hope I convince all of you. I know Moshe has this theory. Um by the way, I was talking about Moshe's theory. Moshe has a uh a point to it, okay. But I think the simplest pivot is one through eight is a theme, ten through twenty-four is a theme, and then twenty-five and twenty-six returns to the original theme, right? So, how would you just frame the yellow theme and the blue theme here if you had to like name them?
SPEAKER_02Give me thanks for the general goods that's okay.
SPEAKER_00Good. So give me thanks for the general good asham does.
SPEAKER_02Um historical goods.
SPEAKER_00Okay, good. Historical goods is fine. I I'd say it's a little bit more narrow than historical goods. To Klaisra, right? Is uh is uh to us, right? Okay, yeah. Um another way to say it I would say is the um uh there's like the cosmic Mycebrecius theme, and then there's the uh the you know Hajjgachon Klaisra theme. Okay, okay, so then we had uh and but then Moshe's um theory was the one versus two through 26. Okay. Uh because so to say what you said again, I I actually buy into what you're saying. I don't think it's a good pivot, but I think it's a good observation.
SPEAKER_03Because it's the only one that uh includes a reason to think, a a primary reason to think, right.
SPEAKER_00So in other words, he's learning it as give thanks to Hashem for his good, his kindness of ever, and then drop-down menu. Here are all the things that are examples of that. Okay, right. So there's a reality to that also, yeah, Joshua.
SPEAKER_01Is that kind of like a topic sentence almost like that?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, exactly. Yeah, topic sentence, uh, yeah, thesis. Yeah, right. Okay. Um, okay, fine. And then we had another. Oh, sorry. So who came up with this theory? Okay, so okay, so this is an interesting thing here. Um, I did find someone who had this in threes. Okay, not exactly according to yours, but I'm gonna read this.
SPEAKER_03I was gonna look what I have here.
SPEAKER_00Oh, is that what you have there?
SPEAKER_03Well, I have three, three, three, three.
SPEAKER_00Okay, well, let's see here. Okay, so Sadjugon. Okay, yeah, I I did not look at it. I I uh I glanced at it and then looked away because uh he already may Yarei may have uh may have been a little kim. Yeah, um, so Sadjugaon in his Perush, who I think I don't understand his Perush. Uh it's very sparse. I haven't used it a lot, but usually what he does is he just like it seems like he just comments on sukim that need explanation. This time he gives a theory, though. So here's his theory. Um, and again, and this is not gonna ruin our our fun, okay? This is just like a way to frame it. Hadivaram ha kayam. So I don't know why he says five through. Sorry. Sorry, we can go back. Okay, for me, this will ruin our fun. No, no. This is not gonna take away our ability to theorize on our own, but I do want to show you the division. So he says, uh in the Hagdama, Kala Gam Bamismorze, so these are three causes for us to be obligated in serving God. Okay. First one, Hadvarna Kayamim Tamid, Bamesha Hazman, Amar Bahem, Laoshmaim, Loroka Arats. So the things that are permanent and perpetual over time. Uh, there he says, to the one who makes the heavens and who spreads out the earth. Okay, so that is the first. Uh that's I don't know why this says five through six, but really is four through. I mean, I guess no, I guess it's five and six, right? I guess maybe he's learning one through four is the intro. And then four, no, it's really it's really um five, six, seven, eight. I don't know why uh nine. I don't know why he stops at uh six, but whatever. Okay, so that's like elements of creation that are perpetual. Okay, then sha's allah abuseinu ba avar, the wonders or the signs that he did for our fathers in the past. Amr bahem lamakimitra m gozer yamsuf, lamulak ammo. Okay, so that's all the past. And then this is where he changes from the way we translated it. This is what he promised us and uh like um foretold good tidings for us for the future. Okay, so how is he how would he translate those last two, uh 23 and 24? Yeah, so that in our lowliness he will remember us, right? Yeah, he will remember us. And so this is our lowliness then is referring to what? Yeah, the present call us, right? Um, and then he will deliver us from our uh distresses.
SPEAKER_01And isn't it kind of like present and future?
SPEAKER_00Like I mean, like yeah, it is present and future, right? It is, yeah. So um once we so I I I think let's go with that translation. I like that. Again, I don't think it ruins our our pivot, okay? And then another thing I want to call your attention to before we go into the uh the questions um is uh I was you know learning this with Ken um right before here. So we noticed that uh it is interesting that um that there are 26 Pasukum and the Mufarja make a big deal about 26. I don't think we talked about the reasons for 26, did we? Oh, is that a thing? Uh is that UK Valky? Is that a thing? Okay, yeah, I should know that, right? Okay, yeah. So I haven't seen anyone say that. I haven't been through everyone yet. Um anyone know any other 26 uh significances? I I didn't know this one. I'll show it to you though.
SPEAKER_03Um I try to remember's name, A B C A B C's.
SPEAKER_00Uh that's 22, right?
unknownHebrews 26.
SPEAKER_00Oh, Hebrews 26? Okay. Yeah, you guys were ABC's, yeah. Um, so uh Rashi says Esrim Vishisha Kilolam Hasto, Namru Bemismore Zeke, Estrim Vishisha Doros, Shahayaha Olam below Torah, means kind bakasto shall karu. So it's the 26 generations uh that the world persisted without Torah, uh on and it persisted on the kindnesses of Hashem. Only one slight problem was saying that. That that's what the 26th alludes to, in my opinion. It talks about after that. Yeah, it talks about after Matan Torah, right? It's just like, you know, uh, so you see, so it's just a weird thing, yeah, Moshe.
SPEAKER_03Um, but yeah, when you said three or something though, and that's different than what I said meant as three.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so what does so say your theory?
SPEAKER_03I thought at least thankfully, I would identify triplets, right? Of like groupings of three verses that uh oh okay.
SPEAKER_00So this is another thing I want to point out. Okay, um, tell me how this squares up with with what you're saying. So um I'm gonna temporarily break this up and then I'll put it back afterwards. Um so Ken and I noticed that there are, even though there are 26 psukim, oh, I think we noticed this last time, there are not 26 sentences, there are far fewer. Okay, so you have um hodu ladashem kitov kilunkastou, hodulkeha elu uhim kilom kasto, hodulin kilun kso. Okay, then l'ose niplos kedolos kilun kosto, l'ose hashmain bisma kilun kosto, l'oroka are sman kilometroso. I know it looks like I'm I'm uh not playing this out. Then lose orim gdolin kiluncasto, as hashemesh lemems palala kilunchasto, as hairech lakhovim lemems pol uh sorry, beyond kilunjso, as I re uh just read that again. Sairechlessto. Okay, then lemakemitrambif Horem Kilun Kosto, Vyote Israel Mikokam Mitocham Kilun Khasto, Vian Khazaka of Vizra Natuya Kilun Kosto, then Legozer Yamsuf Ligzarim Kilun Kosto, Vhevier Israel Besoku Kilkhso, Venira Paro Vhela Yamsuv Kilhoso, then Lamolich Amabamibar Kilun Khaso. Uh now you could read this as part of that clause or not, but Lamaki Malachim Gudolin Kosto, Vayaharo Malachim Adirum Kilun Kostow, Lisikon Melchamikilun Kasto, Ul Og Melakashan Kilum Khosto, Venasan Artsan Lenakla Kilum Khasto, Nakhala Lisa Abdo Kilum Khasto, then Shibish Linu, Zaharlan Kilumso, Vivakim Mitsur and Kilom Khasto, then Nosen L Homasakilum Khso, Hodo L Koshilum Khdo. So in other words, I don't want to say sentences, but in other words, there's like clusters where I mean some of them are literal sentences where it just continues over multiple Psukim. Um, but there's definitely like um clusters here. In fact, I would actually group all these first four in a uh in the in the preface. Um so I don't know what to make of that, but most of what is uh do any of your clusters line up with any of these?
SPEAKER_03Um well everything will be well anything that stuff well the also and then then two after that, yeah. The Make and then two after that, yeah, the Gimel and then the two after that.
SPEAKER_00Okay, good, yeah, yeah, right, right. So those are all in terms of the uh the so these are thematic clusters that we're saying in.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah, right. You know, all the way down until it gets a little bit wonky once you like the.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, right. Right. So I don't know what to do with this. I'll tell you the one thing I get from it that may or may not help us is once I saw this, so in general, the way I would take Chumatria or like anything involving numerical stuff is like it's a secondary consideration. Like it's nice that it has this, but the fact that like the it's like the author, I don't know who wrote this mismore, uh, but the author of the Mizmar had to like deploy 26 kilomet custos, but like didn't have enough sentences. So like he had to like evenly disperse it throughout the thing. So it lends credence to the fact that 26 is an important number because it did not have to be 26 psucim long, like it could have been a few fewer psukim. Like I feel like some of these could have been made into longer psucum, maybe, you know, and we wouldn't have really noticed, you know. Like, so I to me, not that we should like make 26 primary, but it just I don't know to me, like I was like, oh yeah, maybe 26 has significance because you didn't need that many sentences. Yeah, Joshua?
SPEAKER_01Oh yeah, I was thinking there are a couple there are quite a few places where it's like, why is it QL and so here? Like especially where it says after the the king.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, the kings is the biggest one, right? You you're interrupting Sichuan and and and O. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah, right. Yeah, I see.
SPEAKER_02Um this side from back on something inside. You don't have five and six versus the ones that follow after. Yeah, the art and the shemayan. Yeah. I was thinking maybe there's a distinction. Okay.
SPEAKER_00With like um you mean between five, six and then seven, eight, nine? Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02Like the arts are maybe not like specific things that were created, but like distinction, like realms in in reality. So the Shemayan and the stars and things are like specific bodies that okay, that's true.
SPEAKER_00That is a distinction. Yeah, it's just the only thing that bothers me is like if he's dividing it into threes, it's funny that he just glosses over that when it does fit in so nicely with this. Yeah. Um, okay. Let's just now raise our questions and then we'll try to come up with our own theory for tonight. Okay, so we asked last time, I don't I don't think we exhausted all the questions. So, what is the refrain of kilo lam chasto? Why is it repeated? Um uh yeah, okay. Uh, are all of these chesed in the same way? Uh, in what sense are all of these equal, right? It you do get the impression that it's kilalam chasto after all of them, meaning that they're all somehow related to, you know, they're all expressions of chesed, but they don't feel like they're in the same way. Okay, right. Another way to say this, I don't know if we said this last time, but like let's say, like it is funny. Uh, there's a I to me, you can disagree with this, but uh, I feel like there's a tension between his kindness is for eternity. So that holds really well for the first nine, uh the first uh nine Psukim. Okay. Then we like get into like the weeds of like particular historical events, which don't feel like forever. That feels like or or or or eternal. It feels like uh zooming in on the particular. So it's it is it does not feel like it's the same kind of Kilo Hasto to me. Okay. Um okay, four, the refrain makes it sound like this is everlasting. Oh, that's what we said last time. Oh no, we said something different. The refrain makes it sound like this is everlasting Kaiser, but the timeline of the events for us is within 200 years, give or take, right? So it's weird. It's Kaizan's forever, 200 year focus, right? Although I guess this is now not true according to Sadie Gon because it is talking about the whole gullus in the future. So I guess we can well, we we can ignore this question for now because I'm fine with going with Sadie Gon. Okay. And then we said, what is the relationship between the key clauses in the first bus? So I I want to spell this out a little bit more, okay? Is it saying a give thanks to Hashem for he is good and he is good because his kindness is forever? In other words, is the second key an explanation of the first key? But the the first key is the icker, okay? Or give thanks to Hashem for he is good, um, and because his kindness is forever. Um uh which is uh I think that's an acceptable usage in Tanakh where you don't necessarily have an and, but like it means and. Um okay, and then I think is there a third way to read it?
SPEAKER_03Kindness is forever because he's good.
SPEAKER_00Yes, kindness is forever because he's good. Yeah, is that I was trying to think of that whether it was the same as the first one. Give let's just let me just try typing out. Thanks to Hashem, um uh because his kindness is forever, right? Because his kindness uh is forever. Okay, and then like how do we know because he is good. Is that right? Like, that's like you know, the the the you know it's reversing the order, yeah, right. In other words, is the kilom khso explaining the kitov or is the kitov explaining the kilom khastel? Yeah, yeah, Moshe?
SPEAKER_03I thought it was trying to teach you something about like um the specim or the essence of God's name himself, whereas the other terms of right, um aloke, um and out of the mean are can be understood in they mean something in our language, but the actual Shima Shen, I think maybe you're trying to I thought I'm trying to point out the the only thing you can say about it is that it's keto.
SPEAKER_00So interesting.
SPEAKER_03Specifically, the Shima Shen is keto.
SPEAKER_00Okay, that's another possibility as well. Yeah, so then hold on a second this. So so then how are you relating the kila alumhas do to the first half for the f to the first two clauses?
SPEAKER_03Um because God because that Shima Shang is intrinsically good, yeah.
SPEAKER_00Okay, right, but then how is the keila alumh hush related? Okay, I mean I I think you're onto a good track. I'll I'll start it, okay, which is like give thanks to Hashem because he is good, right? Like capital is capital good, meaning like it's saying like i.e. um this is a statement about uh the shame Hashem, okay, but then Kilalum Hasdo. I mean maybe you can say then that therefore because Hashem's goodness is tied to his uh existence, I I don't want to take it too far, I'll tell you what the problem is in a second. Uh therefore his kindness is forever. Okay, but I'm gonna just add disclaimer, uh, and you'll tell me what I mean by this. Not in an Aristotelian way. What do I mean by that? There's a problem with saying that God's chesed is too closely related to his essence. Uh well, let's say you say that I mean, let's say you say that it is uh synonymous with that, you run into a problem that is a uniquely Aristotelian uh problem. What's our big war with Aristotle? Eternality of the universe, right? So so there are are if you say that God's if you say that the the world or anything in the world is a direct outgrowth of God's essence, you end up needing to say that yeah, that that either the universe is eternal or that God needed to create the universe. uh because otherwise there'd be something lacking in his essence if he didn't create, you know, which is a problem that Aristotle would run into, and it's a problem that the Koblists run into, because then that's how that's part of what compels them to say that the universe is like an emanation of God, because they can't conceive of the universe uh of they can't conceive of God independent of the universe. You know, and then you get dependentism and all that stuff. So I I just want to like add that as a display we don't have to get caught up in that uh for briefly. Yeah. Okay, so I'll use the the the the go-to mushroom which I don't know if uh I only heard this from Rebbe. I don't know if uh if Aristotle stated this or if this is from someone else but the you know the model that Aristotle held about God's relationship with the universe is that it's like the relationship between the shadow and a wall right so the shadow is a direct result of the wall okay um and the wall did not do an act of creating the shadow and and it's just like a natural consequence or out outcome of the existence of the wall. And so just as the wall always exists, the shadow always exists. So so the universe you know if the universe is a direct result of God's existence, then it's eternal you know um and so if you go too far in this idea that God is good and the universe is an expression of his goodness, you go too far in that idea you end up saying that the universe must always exist because then you're gonna say that before the universe existed then God was somehow lacking, you know, or there was some sort of uh you know or or why wasn't the universe in existence if God was uh if this is like an outgrowth of God's uh nature, you know, so we don't want to distance ourselves from that that issue. Okay. Um other questions uh in Yud why focus on Makas Bachoros and why phrase it so weirdly I'm not so bothered by that because Machas Boros was the one that got us out in the trime you also have machas bhoras was the one that was announced to Mosher Bino early on that uh you should say to Paro if you know uh Israel is my firstborn and because you you know didn't release my firstborn I'm gonna kill your firstborn uh and you know so I I'm not so bothered by that question that's like a minor question. Seven, why are some of the independent sentences, why some of these independent sentences but other sentences are stretched over um several Psukim is the half sentence its own Shabak uh eight what are these events on our timeline and why not others? Why not Matantor or all of creation or all the Avos? And then what are 23 and 24 referring to and then uh you know how do we account for the pivot? So the biggest questions here I think that we have to ask tonight here or that we have to answer are how do we count for the pivot? We can add more questions by the way but what are 23 and 24 referring to that's the um no sanbassar um and then um what is the refrain of Kilalalamus and why is it repeated? I feel like those are the major questions here. But any other questions we want to ask before we analyze I'll go to the Hebrew I'll put this in the English uh I'll put this in the chat also for people who aren't in the chat I'm not gonna put put the Hebrew there people own Siduran presumably um oh this is gonna mess up the numbers it's not worth it oh you know what I can do hold on I think I just realized I think I realized this by accident I think I could post pictures in the chat that's actually much easier I don't know why let's see if I'm right oh yeah look at that revolution it only took six years of zoom to figure this out okay good all right nice okay um yeah did anyone know that you can do that me neither all right okay I know why not right I I uh why not because Zoom chat is horrendous if it can't hold a thousand characters you could put pictures in there you know I can upload a whole movie yeah okay uh other questions we want to answer here again the pivot's the main one I here's another thing I'll post in the chat I'll post our our methodology questions can I get all these in so uh tonight I would like to answer yeah I'd like to answer our four uh questions one and four so what is the parade saying as a whole um and uh what is the theme or major subject of the parak and what's the main dear message and then four what of it so what what's the purpose of the parak what effect is this supposed to have on us how are we supposed to change our lives or relationship with the Sham Yeah Isaiah okay um well actually let me ask you something okay um I do feel like at some point tonight we're gonna have to define what chesed is and I have my go-to definition of chesed in the Rambam which I'd like to review inside so do you think it would be advantageous to go over that first or or uh should I go we go over your idea first? We can go over that first okay so let's do that first and maybe they'll get other people's gears uh turning here so um you know there's certain definitions that I just feel like I have not seen a better definition of so my go-to place for chesed is the Rambam um as a person but also this parak in the Rama um this is the Murnibukham 353 okay so he defines the terms chesed mishbad and sadaka this is the Makbili translation it's not very long here kvarbi arnufirish la avos and I've said this many times but I just want to it's been a while since we read it inside I've already explained we've already explained in our parish to avosh maus chesed he haflaga so chesed means excess okay in any sense it means excess okay but usually it's usually used for excess good okay so there are times when it is not used for excess good but that's rare all right there are two types of beneficence in this uh type way okay ha achas hi as tov lemisha inlacha kol muhu muhuyavus klapav so one is the doing of good to someone who does not who you don't have any obligations towards okay so you don't owe them anything and you do good to them. Two hashniya he assias tov lemisha roy lakabel yoshu roy lakabel so the second one is you do good to someone who it is uh who is fit to receive it but in a greater measure than they're fit to receive it. So two examples here uh and you could argue with examples but I think just for simplicity's sake I think we would all agree that like a uh a parent has an obligation to provide and care for their kid up to a certain age okay like you know the kid's a little kid. So one type of chesed would be to not only like provide for them but to provide more than they need or more than they deserve. Okay. Like buying them presents let's say okay that'd be a chesed but then giving good to another person's kid who you have no obligations towards would be would be chesed in the first sense that you have no obligations but you're doing this anyway. Okay. Or let's say another example um uh you know you are obligated to give uh that's a complicated example I was gonna give Sadaka but I don't want to go to Zadaka okay hashimush hanafuts shall sifra hanavua bibitu la sius tog me shainluha kolmuya was klapab so the most common use of this in the prophetic books is the first way is uh uh obligation to the one who you don't have an obligation uh good beneficence to a person you don't have obligations towards therefore here's now we transition into our our uh usage here tovah hamagia mimeno yes ala nikre is chesed therefore any good that comes to us from God is called chesed commotion as it says chazde hashem askir I will proclaim the kindnesses of Hashem Lachin and therefore Hamatzius Hazos kulah the entirety of this existence meaning hauvda shuhu yes alah hevi osu matius the fact that God brought it into existence he chesed is chesed nemar it says olam chesed ybaneh the okay so this is a problem I have which I have not had an answer to uh sounds like he's saying the world was built in chesed but I just got through saying um I think last time that olam in Tanakh Hebrew always means eternity so but this does sound like it means world so I don't know if that's a challenge on that theory but whatever. Klomar binyan ha olam chesed the building of the world is a chesed I think that's the end of his thing. Oh no no one rachum vakanun erak pain virav chesed okay so that is chesed which is basically good that you're not owed that you sorry good that is not owed and then everything God does is a chesed could we just like talk that out for a second yeah yeah we're yeah God we have to create this there was no us that he was exactly so what this is saying and again this is also talking uh against Aristotle because this is saying that the creation of the universe was not necessitated by anything it and that's what we when we say this is a big question that people have uh which is what do we mean when we say that God created the world the ratzone with will how do we understand ratzon when we talk about Hashem as an act like by uson means you know you have a desire within you but that's fine for us because we have we're we we're not one we have multiple multiple parts we have biological needs that result in desires that propel our will we have free will we have you know choice between you know two things but for God what do we mean when we say that God did something beratson and we do say this about the creation of the world so so that's uh what do we mean basic question is that like God wanted other things to experience it um okay but how is that ratzon?
SPEAKER_03Well I guess if you have your own rat on you want a good for yourself but you wouldn't say God wants a good for himself but maybe okay so you're saying ratson implies in for in in general cases ratson implies like I want this and so when we talk about raton hashem we really mean that like you know for example hai ratson that he fulfills the ratzone of every other being that he's willing in the sense that he um does the will uh he satisfies the will of his creations never heard that before that's interesting yeah what's your what what were you trying to find rats on for a while what what does it mean that Hashem acts created the universe with ratson yeah Moshe Ratson and when we have a will usually that's a reaction or it's stem right it's triggered by something right right so and even then like hunger I mean we could I mean we we have biological function but if I mean but yeah that is also like biological function it triggers the even even that natural uh motion it that triggers us so I think by God it's that there isn't any other factor that's causing that will it comes entirely in his own essence okay all right that's a good interpretation um I'll give you one better I think which is the Seferai Karim.
SPEAKER_00I think it's in two book two and it's either in one, two or three okay um it uh I he divides the chapters a little weird there. Um I'm not blaming him I'm just saying like the chapter does not end where you would think it would end. Um so he just says and this is a classic Maimonide and move when we make positive statements about God what how do we interpret that it's really a negation of the opposite right so what we're really doing is we're saying that God was not compelled okay um because that would lead to the problems we just said before but what it means for God like we have no there's no positive way to uh conceive of what it means for God to act with ruthless because we can't conceive of how you go from an unchanging being to doing actions okay that's like the that that that's something that that's a that would require some sort of positive knowledge of God that we can't have. So all we're doing is we're just saying whatever however that works it is it was not compelled because there's only two types of actions in that that agents can do. There's compulsion like fire must burn or must heat okay and then there's baraton which like human beings can choose to do this to do that. So what we're doing is we're saying by ratun we're saying don't think that God was compelled to do this. Okay so the idea then that God was um brought the universe into existence uh as fet means that he didn't owe it to anyone he wasn't responding to an out an external compulsion and it wasn't responding to any sort of internal compulsion that he had to do it okay so it was a it was it was un so I I don't know if that's the same as what Moshe was saying only from a different angle or or something more like in a positive light but yeah it did sound like you were speaking positively yeah yeah I won't tell uh say Rama okay so now that's the idea of of chesed so I don't know if we're gonna need that but I I feel like we can't talk about kilulam chasto without talking about chesed okay yeah all right go ahead Isaac you have an approach um yeah I think that that is helpful.
SPEAKER_02Um so maybe what the refrain of Kilam Chasto is saying is that one is defining all of these things as chesed. Yeah right each of the ones of the ones that seem like split sensitive but all these different items were facid that chem did but also it's equating all of them yes and they're faced okay right so maybe what it's saying is that like just as like these essential facts of reality that Hashem rules over the world is assessed and that he created the stride in the arts and he did this whole hierarchy of you know reality creative reality. So too like it was just as much like a kind of what was in terms of what I say like just a bunch of the like you were saying before like that we didn't deserve it but Hashem still did it anyway of like taking us out of Egypt and and just destroying these kings.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Like it's it's a it's the same type of thing in terms of that but also like it's equally foundational to our existence. Like like we wouldn't be able to exist without creating rich reality. And so we wouldn't really exist without Egypt and just organizations setting up um the native land is an inheritance like apparently these things are just fundamental to our existence. Okay good and and then I think it's interesting like it wraps back around at the end right to like it's sort of the first thing but I think it's first theme but I think it's different because it's like a lived experience now.
SPEAKER_00So like also the the uh the substance that you're looking at now in your hand is also like okay good does much potential to your okay good this this either is the same or dovetails with the approach that Ken and I took so that's good.
SPEAKER_03Yeah I'll I'm gonna I'm gonna I wanna uh dissect it a little bit but I'll hear what other people have to say versus a little bit of a side thing but um I just remembered that um when the moment we're discussing Ruby of an thing of um anyone who says like after I was just thinking about that also yeah so that this is one of this one of the candidates because of the Central M Khatra.
SPEAKER_00Right. Let's just go through that really quickly I it's funny my my intuition was screaming this uh throughout my entire couple can and I looked at it and I'm like I don't like it references it but like does it really help? Uh this is a this is a short gummar we'll go through really quickly yeah so Amrubi Aliya is in Brachos uh Daladama base Amrabi uh lauzar amarbi avina kola umar tilam shaloshpa I mean anyone who says what we call ashre three times a day mov even though ashre is not part of it okay right um movtak lo but even chazal called it asre by the way so I uh yeah I think so yeah I think so didn't we were you the one asked me that two years ago no all right but even though Ram had like those yeah I think I think Khazal called it ashre uh whatever um Baholyim anyone who says it three times a day movtak lo should ben alba he's assured that he's a uh member of Olamhaba my timeout what's the reason ilema mishum da is da asiabalaf bays if you'll say that it's because it's alphabetical nema ashre tumi darak say kuf you test okay uh and if you say that three times a day then you've used up the entire day that's the one where there's uh you know uh eight second for each one day apin so it's saying that has eight aleph bezos it's even better okay if like we care about olif baseum de easpe pose dacha so maybe it's because it has poseidha so name a halo hagudal so then you should say haloguddle which is our peric uh dixip no sen lacham kobazar which is the same idea uh he gives flesh to uh uh uh bread to all um flesh elamishum de isbe tardi rather it's because it has two it has both ashe is is alphabetical and it has the um it has uh pose daha idea yeah are you aware of uh the alpha chuba but just the instruction that or thing that from alm gone right where he says that when he said say it three times a day you only meant it like uh just you have they meant to say it once a day but he'd be opportunities to say it. Oh interesting I didn't I didn't know that yeah um yeah did you ever hear it? No okay um okay so let's think along Isaiah's idea okay uh but I want to do it as a thought experiment okay what would happen if we um if we only had 10 through 24 okay and then how does one through eight starting off change it and then how after that does 25 through 26 change it further okay so what what would we what would we take away from this or how would we learn the the refrain of Kilulam Costello if it were only 10 through 24?
SPEAKER_01Yeah right the thing that he just did the miracles like the like all these are all like the the Nissan right or like the and you would think like oh okay well those are obvious right like he did do these things yeah it's it's mentioned that he did these things yeah for us specifically um so you would say okay we have to give thanks for the the miracles that he did okay right and then also I think the second aspect of it is is since there's more there's like a chloe stall focus in that you'd think maybe there's more focus on like I don't know since we're I don't know like the Jewish people and that and then it's like there's a that he has like a hush one of the Jewish people. Okay good and then just to to uh uh um get a little bit further what how would we conceive of the reference to chesed if our scope was limited to the Jewish people in these events bro think that the Jewish people we would think of it in the second way I think that the Jewish people are deserving of some custom I think maybe a way deserving of something in a way that like because Hashem wants us to carry out a he's gonna have call us in some way or is it okay right okay that's good but then he does he did more in these situations than required because he did miracle okay right that okay you could definitely take that I I do think you could say though that we didn't deserve it at all you could say like like you know the Avos deserved it and we we didn't really deserve you know yeah yeah Isaiah you would say then that it would it's like in terms of the nation and its existence as like a nation.
SPEAKER_00Okay that's also right meaning that we didn't need to exist as a nation and have all the special stuff okay good I I would say one more thing this is not contradicting it but I'd say I think we would automatically think of Chasid in terms of uh of like deserting this and say despite the fact that we were on such a low level you know God did this for us or despite the fact that we that he didn't need to do this for us he did it but I think it would be in terms of of it would be in terms of human worthiness of chesed because it's we're only talking humans and then on top of that Klysha yeah are you talking a lot of like right right okay so how does that be that like there it could be like an idea of like a Clyde shell even in galls. Okay right to think without galls and and with the sound right so that's okay so that's good also and then we would think of the the end of the story is Gaula okay so hold on to that because that's gonna be with the last step of going to the Hodulukal Shime because that that goes beyond the end of the story.
SPEAKER_03Yeah Major Yeah um I don't and this is that different but uh like just put just with the first part you could have read that as like a you know some sort of like existentialist comment saying like you know what are we in reference to life all these great life and luminaries that literally sustain the entire world of course that's I mean cosmologically says their curse of course you have of course in God can't do that so of course you think so that and then saying oh but he and he took us out of Egypt he performed specifically but these uh you know great war acts and you can say oh well he did all these thinkings to uh you know Jews specifically but you know that was uh you know a long a long time but that was a long even though that was a long time ago the that itself is still like worthy to be and even though I don't see like a wreck miracles nowadays and uh uh that itself is still worthy to be things forever and that is expressed like through like through Pesock or whatever yeah all the intuition okay so I think that yeah yeah sorry go on and then I guess it's between the pivot point but then he's saying that no don't have these like feelings of infus of inferiority inferiority because you have like the talking about like an our lilinist remember us and he still continues to you know give stuffness uh all people okay so I think that is a that's a promising approach but I think that's a different approach than the one that Isaiah and I are taking because that's starting off saying that the the real topic or the starting topic or the natural topic
SPEAKER_00Is the cosmological perspective. And then we are extending this into the kiddish comes from extending it into claustral. The way that I'm taking it, and I think you're taking it, is the natural thing for us is to care about ourselves and our ga'ah and what God does to us. And then the khiddish is expanding the framework from thinking about us to contextualizing it in the entire Briya. Okay. So I think those are two different approaches. They might both be valid, uh valid, but I want to continue along these lines, yeah, Isaiah?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, like I think you're just alluding to it. I think once you include the first part, so then it's it's a facet, it's not just a facet in terms of the nation exist, but it's even the blue part is a facet for the whole reality.
SPEAKER_00Okay, right. All right. So now so the the key move here is so if you just had the Kaly Saral part, you would think of chesed in terms of human beings and their worthiness, and you say, Well, we don't deserve all the miracles, or we don't deserve the bris with the agos, or we don't deserve a tabination. And then God did the chesed for us, and then the ultimate chesed is gonna is he's gonna redeem us. But now we start off with talking about the heavens and the luminaries, and we call that chesed in the same way that we say makas pohoros and killing Sihon. So now the question is raised well, wait in what way are both of them chesed? So, how do we answer that in light of what we said?
SPEAKER_03It's not I mean as far as you know, the way that science laser operates, it's we may not immediately recognize uh you know that like when it's light outside that comes to the sun, right? What is the ball? What is the light that do that? Um and uh like you know, we we don't appreciate like Earth's uh gravitational or like the gravity or rotation and uh like and the fact that you know meteors and space on the orbit factory on earth are not like big pieces, yeah. And to so in terms of like the underlying system of nature that that does sustain us, but it we don't see it.
SPEAKER_00Okay, so so here's the interesting thing. Okay, so uh my intuition is that that's what we're accomplishing by the last two Psycho. Okay, uh for the reason that Isaiah said. So let me let me just talk out like this.
SPEAKER_02Oh, you want to say um yeah, I mean, I think when what we're saying how these things are tested in the same way as both we don't we're not like over any of these things, right? Like what I want to say is one of two things. Either we aren't over anything, but talking about like the way the world is in like that wanted it to be, couldn't have been without all of these things.
SPEAKER_00Okay, good. Okay, good, good, good. All right, so the way that Ken and I expressed it, even though this is not um well, I don't know, it is what I'm saying. It is said here, Ki Tov. Okay, so we were thinking, so just let me just go back to this and I'll segue into the Tov part. So if it was just the Klaizra part, we would think that the chesed is in terms of our worthiness because of our sins, whatever, blah, blah, blah. But then now we're calling the existence of the sun and the moon and the stars and the shemaim and the arts chesed also. So, in what framework is that chesed? So that's where we have the Rambam. Olam Chesed Yibane, the entire existence of the universe is chesed, insofar as it uh did not need to exist, and it and and God endows it with existence. Okay, but then so now why are we juxtaposing the two? So I think the unifying thing is the Tov, okay, which is that Vyarlachimus Koshavikini Tovma Od, that God saw everything He He created, and behold, it was very good, that the existence of the entire universe is good, and the existence of Kla Yisrael is part of the coming to be of that Tov. In other words, you have the systems of Shemay B arts and Shishume Breeshis, which were created and are operating today the same way that they were operating before. That has not changed since the creation. But then you have this arc of Klaw Yesrael's history that is changing and it's changing. Um, I mean, there are obviously lots of ups and downs, but the overall thing is an upwards arc going from us without you know in slavery and mitzraim to you know being redeemed up until the final Ga'ulah, where Bayomu yeah shem machadushmochad and ki malaharat dea esad ashem Hasim, that the entire world will be filled with knowledge of Hashem. In other words, the the the Gula of Kla Israel is not good because ye us, it's good because it's completing the vision for the entire Briya that started with God creating the shrine of the arts out of out of Chesed. Okay, so it's completing the entire picture of the entire universe. And that's not the way that most people think of the redemption of Kla Israel. Like, what you know, why is it good for God to redeem Kla Israel? People think of it in terms of selfish reasons of like we're not enslaved, you know, we're not uh oppressed anymore or anything like that. No, we have to think about it in terms of the shem Hashem in the entire Briya, because Shahakol Baralikh Vodo, everything was created for God's glory that you know, the entire everything functioning smoothly reflects God's glory. And and that's the uh that's the big picture that this is a part of.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it's almost like a khilo shem for us to be in like correct, it is right.
SPEAKER_00And that that is the uh, I feel like there are a lot of good members of Kazal that I could quote to bring a Raya for that, but I am not thinking of any right now. But I feel like that that is a point that they make. Yeah, it's a Hil Hoshem. Uh, that the only thing that's a pogam in the entire creation is us not being, you know, uh in a state where we can recognize this. Yeah. I mean, I'll I'll tell I'll quote you the thing that I like that I gave a Sunday shir on once uh that is not exactly this, but it's related, is um uh anyone who says um Vayahulu, I think, is considered uh uh uh Shituf Lakaroshbarkoba Masa Breshis is considered a partner with God in the Masa Breshis. How so? Breeshis is already created, right? So the main idea there is that that the only aspect of the Briya that we're aware of that has the ability to disobey God and to not live in line with the design that God made is a human being. You have a telemelochim that can recognize God's creation, but you also have Bukhira and could choose not to. So, insofar as we are not recognizing the Briya and not living as a Telemelochim, there is this like puzzle piece missing from the entire Briya. But once we recognize the creation, which is what we're doing in the act of Vaihulu of appreciating the completion of creation, us doing the act of recognition is putting in that puzzle piece, and now the entire universe is complete, you know. And what this is saying is on a national level, there is a giant puzzle piece missing when you don't have a society that reflects the Shem Hashem, guiding everyone to Sheam Hashem, you know, to to the DSHM. When that's missing, then the entire picture is uh is is incomplete. Yeah, Maja?
SPEAKER_03Just like meaning that our purpose is is saying it's like tied up with the cosmological with the or a cosmological with the cosmological purpose, which is a recognition of God's goodness.
SPEAKER_00And we we're only given existence, just like the universe was only given existence out of chesed Hashem, he didn't need to do it. Our existence is the same Chesed, which is that that it's part of that same act of creation. And Khla not being redeemed is an incompletion in the creation, just like the the the sun not shining, you know. Right need to be there, right?
SPEAKER_03All these things do happen, like that trees free, and shine. That it's like they're they're already perfected, like right, exactly.
SPEAKER_00But there's a there's a lack in the entirety of the creation, insofar as claystral is not uh or I I say claystral, really it's in so far as humanity is not uh living in line with their design, but it's on us to like bring that to fruition. Okay, but now yeah.
SPEAKER_03These acts then represent a specific progress along and perfect.
SPEAKER_00So yes, but I don't I'm not confident enough to be able to say like why is he identifying these and not others? Like, I personally, if I were writing this, would not highlight Sikhun and Og. Like those are just like like it's like roadkill along the way, you know, like bum bump. What was that? Oh, that was Sikon and Og, you know, like again, Mitraim, I get like that's like like showing the entire world the shame of sham. But uh I don't know, maybe I just haven't learned Sikon and Og that much. Um, okay, but now the question is okay, so it should end with and he'll deliver us and then he'll bring us to redemption. End of story, Kilim Khasto. But no, then we go back to no Sain Lechem Luko Basar, Kilim Khasto, Hodula Kel Hashamaim Kilom Khasto. So what is up with that? Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Thanks. Because I think the the second section, it's more like we already know of those as like we already have like an internal recognition that those are kind of like wonders from Hashem that they're like acts of chased. Yeah. But I think the first group, we don't really it's easy to read over those and like okay, I need creative, you know. It's like we don't always already think about them. Right. So then I think this third short section is kind of like, oh, now realize what the first section was really saying.
SPEAKER_00Okay. It's like oh that's good. Okay.
SPEAKER_01Like, no, realize that, oh yeah, those are things that should be hesitant for, just like we are for the second section.
SPEAKER_00Okay, that's good. Uh well, either Isaiah or Moshe said something about did either of you offer a theory about the ending with this? Yeah, what do you say again? Yeah, yeah, okay. So I want to say that, but but express it in this way, which is that um actually um just to uh fill this in here. So who says this well for one? Um is it Radak? Yeah, Radak says just at the very end. Oh, you know what? Hold on, let me do the good Radak. Um to Hillim 136. Okay, good Radak says good book says, the good radak says uh no sin lachem Achar Sha Siper Chasto al-Yisrael. After telling about the chasid on Israel, Amr Betahli Samizmore. It says, I assume Takhlims at the end of the Mizmore, Chasto al Kolachaim, his chesed on all living things. Okay, so he's providing the food for every creature. Hodu Lakelashmaim, this is a funny one, kiminhashamaim bahamatar, because the the the rain comes from heaven. Okay, which is the cause of all food. That's the water cycle. Ruzalamar min govoa govaha avir from the uppermost heights. That's what it means. Kelhashmaim, he commands rain to fall from heaven. That's a chesed that's perpetual. So that's one take on it. Miri has another take, uh, which is um uh vamurder klaw shakon mikolam yihaluluhu, mamshi madulko, umamshi mitzi usam. So he ties it to all the rest of humanity. Okay, um, I think that's what he means um uh yeah, mikulam, right? That is all of humanity. And then Hodu Lakel Shemaim, Razalmar al Khel Shu Hayahid Hamoshel al Kol Elohim, Gvo al Koa Gvohim. So he so Radak says God of the sky, like to make it who makes it rain. Maybe you're saying god of nature, okay. But in either event, what I want to say is that it's not enough to recognize the abstract first nine sugum, like you were saying, and Cliester, you need to feel that God is sustaining your personal existence. Okay. And uh this this is the last part of the idea that I haven't exactly completed yet, is that like what exactly is lacking? Let's say we uh we understand the the everything except for the last two, right? That God created the universe as an act of chesed, and that claw Yisrael and their entire journey throughout history, including through the Gulu Hasidta, is to complete the Tove of the creation. So, what's lacking if we don't recognize no sun and the cobazar for ourselves? Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02Well, it also completes the Tove of creation because the moment Hashem worker revolved that lifetime, the reality can exist like Hashem built into existing. Okay. No, it doesn't recognize the goodness of Hashem.
SPEAKER_00That's true. That's true. Is that another idea or is that along the lines of this idea? Because what what I want to say is like like you're not you're uh I think which I think is like along the lines of what you were saying, you're not connecting the dots fully to you. Like intellectually, all of this is already included in the cosmic framework, right? Um, because it's hard, it's not on on claw Israel, right?
SPEAKER_02Well, I think that allows you to connect the dots maybe in terms of like you're like actively thinking of something and realize this is part of like an essential of that, like the end of the analogy. That's like all these other things are okay.
SPEAKER_00Let me just try saying it slightly differently, uh, I think, which is that um I think you have to recognize I would not exist without Lefem, okay, or without Mazon. And the I I am now, I can see I'm a component of the Briya and I'm a part of Kla Israel. So that's feeling the existential um the you know, the the chesed that you have that that I mean the close thing we have is like like we cannot conceive of the fact that God withdrawing his will on us not existing, but we can conceive of not having food and then dying. You know, this is like one of the ideas that I I um uh one of the explanations I have for fasting on the Yomakipurim, which is um you have to, you know, I got this on the Abravanel's idea. He quotes this thing that is in some Sidurium after fast days of like, you know, may it be my your will that like just as my blood and my fat is diminished, it's like I'm being mockery of on the misbeach. Like I always thought, like, what's up with that? Um, like I'm being mockery of myself on the misbeah, like you know, we don't believe in human sacrifice. I my idea there is that like in absolute meeting, you would not deserve existence. And when you deprive yourself of food, you can conceive of your existence stopping. So you have to feel that like it's only because by God's kindness that you are continuing to exist. But now you have a framework for thinking about your own existence, which is I'm a part of this Briya that the entire Briya wouldn't exist, wouldn't exist without God's chess, and I'm a member of Clistral that is bringing this mission to its close through doing all the stuff that I need to do, you know, and uh and and existing there as well. And I just want to say one more thing before we end for today. Again, we'll I do want to spend another session on this, um, which is I think now this is a very good way to end the Seder. Okay, because what's the emotional high point that most people or that you would end the Seder on without without this? What would you what would the the prevailing feeling be? Okay, that's part of it. Yeah, I mean hopefully if if you uh what would the focus be on the uh at the end of the Sader? What's the focus of the the met the theme of the end of the Seder? Second half. That we have that we what?
SPEAKER_03Are you gonna say that you use a line?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it's all about Kahali Srail and Ga'ula, right? So you would not then extend it to the cosmic framework, but that's a huge that's going against the entire purpose of this parak. So this peric is modeling for us that yes, the gaula is very important, but you need to frame the gaula within the framework of Mysa Breshis and bringing the entire world to completion. And again, that is ultimately expressed with uh with such because sukis is both those things of the umus, you know, that's where we focus, that's the only Khag where we focus on the rest of the world of the other nations, the parim for the other nations, and also on God Tajka on uh on on nature, you know, of sustaining all of nature. But like we that needs to be present in Pesach as well. So that's my intuition for how this fits into Pesach. Yeah. Okay, good. So I think these ideas are good, but let's let them percolate. And then what I'd like to do next time is come back and then maybe go through one of the Mufarshim, like we usually do, of like going it thoroughly, and then we'll we'll wrap this up. And then the last session we can start the Suggya or the three Sugyas of Halah Gadl, Burkhashir, and the Fifth Cup. Okay, that's the plan. Lee Netter. Okay, very good. Have a good night. Oh, I missed a chat. What did the chat say? And when? Uh, given there are presumably different opinions on what chasid means, shouldn't we try to figure out how David specifically uses the word chuz in other contexts? Given this is his work. So I'll just say this I know she's not here anymore. I mean, yes, but like one of the benefits of using a Reshun is like he did the work, you know? So, like, yeah, if I had the ability to learn all of Telemann for my own definitions, like I'm doing with Michle, I would do the work on my own. But that's not I'm that's I don't have that capacity.