In this episode of Cultivate your Culture, we are joined by Monique Kavelaars. Monique is a retired Olympic fencer, entrepreneur, business facilitator, and trainer. She has been working with teams to create cultural shifts in pursuit of high performance for over 15 years. Building on her experience as a Canadian Olympian, Monique guides teams to learn about what it takes to be an effective team while focused on the results. Returning to Canada (After living abroad for 13 years) Monique works as a consultant bringing her talents as a motivating team member. Offering her expertise on facing challenges, problem-solving and collaborative decisions making towards team goals. She will also be working with the Canadian Olympic team as an Athlete Mentor for the 2021 Olympics next summer.
Connect with Monique via Twitter, LinkedIn, or Instagram. Check out her website for more details on what Monique does and the impact she can make in your organization.
The host, Zoran Stojkovic believes that we are all born to flourish in work and life. Through his company, Kizo, he equips organizations and people with culture and mindset tools to reach full engagement through powerful workshops, memorable keynotes, and transformative individual consultations.
In this episode of Cultivate your Culture, we are joined by Monique Kavelaars. Monique is a retired Olympic fencer, entrepreneur, business facilitator, and trainer. She has been working with teams to create cultural shifts in pursuit of high performance for over 15 years. Building on her experience as a Canadian Olympian, Monique guides teams to learn about what it takes to be an effective team while focused on the results. Returning to Canada (After living abroad for 13 years) Monique works as a consultant bringing her talents as a motivating team member. Offering her expertise on facing challenges, problem-solving and collaborative decisions making towards team goals. She will also be working with the Canadian Olympic team as an Athlete Mentor for the 2021 Olympics next summer.
Connect with Monique via Twitter, LinkedIn, or Instagram. Check out her website for more details on what Monique does and the impact she can make in your organization.
The host, Zoran Stojkovic believes that we are all born to flourish in work and life. Through his company, Kizo, he equips organizations and people with culture and mindset tools to reach full engagement through powerful workshops, memorable keynotes, and transformative individual consultations.
I think the best starting place is recognizing the behaviors that are the right. Right? What are the rules of engagement? What are the rights to play? So, I, you know, we can look at decision making and hierarchy and you know how people communicate, but those can all be boiled down into behaviors of how we actually what's expected of us.
Zoran Stojkovic:Hello, I'm your host, Zoran Stojkovic, and welcome to Cultivate your Culture. This podcast we'll be discussing how leaders can build connected, high-performing teams and business and sport using actionable tools, evidence based systems and simple processes. Today on the show, we have Monique Kavelaars. Monique is a retired Olympic fencer, entrepreneur and business facilitator and trainer. She has been working with teams to create cultural shifts in pursuit of high performance for over 15 years. Building on her experience as a Canadian Olympian Monique guides teams to learn about what it takes to be an effective team while focused on the results. Returning to Canada. Monique works as a consultant bringing her talents as a motivating team member offering her expertise on facing challenges, problem solving and collaborative decisions, decision making towards team goals. And she'll also be working with the Canadian Olympic team as an athlete mentor in the 2021 Olympics next summer. We're hoping those Olympics happen when you Welcome to the show.
Monique Kavelaars:Thank you so much. It's weird to say 2021 I'm like "What, when did that did that happen?" 2020 has been a blur.
Zoran Stojkovic:It is it is it's it's it's an unprecedented time with what the Olympics being pushed back and pressure all sorts of competitions canceled, and it's gonna be interesting to see how it looks. And it's definitely a challenge for athletes and coaches and Federations as well.
Monique Kavelaars:And the fans like I don't know how he felt. But once everything went silent, it was like sitting on the sofa in the evening, like, what are we going to watch? Like, what are we going to? How are we going to entertain herself? There was no NBA, Major League Baseball, nothing, nothing. Yes, it's very strange, very strange, but I'm glad it's back.
Zoran Stojkovic:Yeah, definitely, I can't imagine the stress of having to readjust a yearly training plan to not have the Olympics, essentially this year and, and potentially not having it in 2021.
Monique Kavelaars:And I know a few athletes who were preparing, and I knew that they were different stages of their career. So for some, it even was like, Oh, this was gonna be my last one, I was gonna start a family, I get to hang around or for some injured and having the opportunity to say, hey, there's a window here that I can kind of bounce back. And so, you know, it's just life though. Right? So go with it. So.
Zoran Stojkovic:It is it is. So teams. I mean, when we think of a team culture, we love teams. Everybody's part of a team, we both work with teams on helping them be the best versions of themselves. And team culture is a word that gets thrown out quite a bit, but they're sometimes hard to pin down what it actually means. So what is how do you define team culture Monique?
Monique Kavelaars:Um, I kind of defined it, it's it has a lot of legs to it. So I would say it's like a word that is like a way of life for a group? How are we going to actually create meaning within the group or team that we're in? What's our values, how, what are our attitude towards what we're doing collectively. And it's a pattern in that kind of interaction. And sometimes if not being observed or managed or least attended to, a pattern can change, like any habit. So it can go up and down, there's a real has to be a real conscious choice of what it is, collectively, of what it is important for the group to function and, and how and how we all can contribute. So it's a it's a, it has two aspects, one, the individual input of what you are personally and your preference and how you step in with your own history. And, you know, psychologically how we have is our preference, even how we were raised, it sort of impacts how we impact our culture around us. And also, just when you walk into a team, I think we all can recognize, you know, it, the first job or the first sports team, you walk into the new person and your your spidey senses are up because you're really trying to connect to the, to the group and understand this unspoken language of how we're going to be with each other. So that is, in my mind how culture is in if we looked at the world stage, you know, you could recognize so many different cultures in Italy or in France or in Sweden or China. So the subtle messages of how we actually interact and the way we interact with each other as a pattern. That's how I look at it.
Zoran Stojkovic:Ineresting. So the patterns of interacting with each other were taught, you mentioned attitude, talking about this this way of life this way of being both individually and as, as as part of a group. And so why, then why is it important to cultivate the culture of a business or sports team? I mean, it's, it's great, but why should companies and teams be investing resources into that?
Monique Kavelaars:You know, it's a great question, because sometimes it's like, it's uncertain. It's an unwritten rule. I can only I can describe it in in a little story. There's the story that we talked about culture where these two young fish are swimming in the water. And this old fish is swimming in the opposite direction. And the old fish says to the two young fish, Hey, boys, how's the water, and they kind of look at each other strange, and they swim away. And then finally, one fish says to the other fish, what's water? Whether we like it or not, we're all in water, in our families, in our communities, in our organizations, it's where we feel connected. It's where we consciously or unconsciously decide to stay and lean in or lean out. So when you ask the question, why is it important? First off, it brings us meaning and connection. Secondly, it awful offers an organizational routine, who is rallying around the goal together to find like minded individuals who will buy in to the craziness that's going to happen when you when you sign up, whether it's an organization or sports team, or even marrying into a family, you you sort of see like, Okay, what is how is this all about, it's important to cultivate because we are connected, and that's how we kind of unconsciously sort of moving into areas and why don't we lean into others? It's because we don't fit in and that's culture. In my mind.
Zoran Stojkovic:When you talked about the fish I just pictured Nemo swimming with another fish.
Monique Kavelaars:And Dory not remembering a second later.
Zoran Stojkovic:Dory "Wait, what we're in water?" Yeah, no, that's, I think that's, that's a beautiful way to put it because teams have a culture regardless of whether they work on it, or think about it or not. And, and, and sometimes people lean in, or they lean out and disengage. And you're saying it's important because we're all connected. And ultimately, by by being connected, and by, by cultivating a culture, teams will perform better.
Monique Kavelaars:They will. And I guess the question is, what you want out of your team, and I being a very, you know, results focused person, I'm going to walk in going, Okay, where's the finish line? Like? How are we going to get there? What's the goal? And how can I can contribute. So I speak in two lanes. When I think about sport, though, it's it's different. Because we can only engage at that high level if I think in high performance sport for so long. And there's an awareness of knowing particularly as an athlete, if you're working on the Olympic level, there's a four year quadrennial that you're kind of working and you're either an athlete focused on your own, like, let's say you're a diver, you have a team, but your individual performance, but your team around you, you couldn't even have diving where you're in synchronized diving or, or in the sport that I did in fencing, you know, my performance individually impacted the everybody. And, and I was handing it off to them, or they would hand it off to me, like good luck go. Or there's that invasion kind of sport team where you're collectively touching each other a basketball, but you know, soccer where you're you don't get anywhere unless it's a seamless situation. So it's important because if we're all trying to achieve something together, we all have to know. First off what we're trying to achieve. And if we want good people on the bus sort of thing, we need to make sure that they recognize who we are, and we want them in rather than you guys are all crazy, and I'm stepping off. That's that's the biggest point for me why it's important. I've seen teams succeed, though, I should say, I have seen teams succeed with toxic culture, and it's by sheer dumb luck. And there's nothing sustainable in it. Like it's a one off. And usually the the winds are very individualistic, and nobody really feels good about it. So I'm not suggesting it's the only way to win because I have seen it go another way. But it is, you know, it has greater meaning. I think when there's a culture that everyone really wants to be a part of.
Zoran Stojkovic:Okay, so you're you're thinking it's not necessary to have a great culture to win. But that's only that winning and that high performance is only going to happen like once.
Monique Kavelaars:I think it's depends on the game you're playing. If it's the long game, it's not going to work. If you're looking at an organization long game, you're going to see turnover, you're going to see people leave, you're going to see top talent leave. And you're going to be spending a lot of energy trying to stay afloat. In a sports team, you know, it's a very tangible blackline, there can be a win and a loss. And maybe in the short term, you're going to have some gains. But I can't see and I've never seen long term, the long game of a success, I don't even want to put in a number of time years on it, there's just nothing sustainable, because sooner or later, whatever that toxicity is, it can be sheer dumb luck, but that, that one off isn't a true representation of what if you if you took a statistical you know, you know, what has a greater reward system, it's going to be the healthy culture that that is cultivated around the values that you have, and inclusivity and the connection that you create.
Zoran Stojkovic:Oh, for sure. And I mean, let's say somebody's bought into this, we've defined team culture, somebody bought into why it's important. How can it be cultivated?
Monique Kavelaars:Yes, it's, um, I think the best starting place is recognizing the behaviors that are the right, like, what are the rules of engagement? What are the rights to play, so I, you know, we can look at decision making and hierarchy, and you know, how people communicate, but those can all be boiled down into behaviors of how we actually what's expected of us. I had recently posted something that I thought was fun, I'd seen the Norwegian ski team during the Olympics in Korea had had three simple rules to their culture, which was no jerks allowed, basically be humble. And anyone can sit anywhere, meaning if you had one the day before or lost, it doesn't matter, you don't get extra privileges, we're all equal. And Friday night, taco night, basically, that's on the road, even though we're sick of each other every night, every Friday on the road we eat together. So cultures don't have to be intensive, but the behavior is around creating connection. And, you know, having trust, you know, knowing that no jerks allowed tells me like there is a there's a consequence to how you're interacting. There's more things like how do we perform, like, we want to work hard. But we have also had cultures where people can work really hard and knock people over to a point where there's work the hard work hard, and there's a trail of dead bodies of sorts behind them. And we call them the skillful politician because they're working hard. They're very socially smart, but they're not very humble. And they're not really engaging everybody. They're not seeing, you know, they're not thinking less of themselves. They're, you know, they, what's the expression, being humble is not thinking less of yourself, it's thinking of yourself less. They're not thinking of the entire team. So that's, that's key. So it's a starting point is just the behaviors to answer your question, communication. Trust being the biggest one, being able to sort of have everybody understand that there's a liability trust doesn't mean, you're my best friend, it just means I can trust that, you know, if we get it when it gets hard, and it will, you've got my back, we both know what we're going to do. And I'm going to trust that you're going to do everything you can to do it. And there's a vulnerability when you say, I can't do it, can you help me? You know what you think, or you're better than that than me? that that's true vulnerability of saying, help me out like I'm struggling here. And knowing that you can do that as a team or as an organization is key. Because our ego does get in the way.
Zoran Stojkovic:Yeah, yeah, it definitely does. And what a great example by the Norwegian team of sharing the meal together, where where it's, it's really not about the sport, you just getting to know each other and bonding off the ski slopes. Anyone could sit anywhere. So there's, there's no rookies and veterans, and then that kind of thing. And then the no jerk rule, which other like the All Blacks have have a similar philosophy? Oh, yeah. For that one, except they call it they call a little bit different. Yeah, and I mean, Monique, you're saying it's it's important to have these? What are the rules of play what's expected of us, but who has to be in those conversations to get that going? I mean, is it the leadership group? Is it the head coach is the GM? Is it in a business? Is it the managers?
Monique Kavelaars:I think, sadly, it not. Sadly, this is just the truth. I think we are a bit of a hierarchical culture. Not as high as some cultures, but realistically as human beings. We, you know, we grew up with parents, they weren't charged. They told us how things were. So I can't help but recognize that the leadership has a big part, to establish what is going what's going to work as a coach. They set the tone. I remember it In Sweden, I used to live there. And I remember hearing a coach on the national team, or at least he was he was coaching one of the height, like the sort of NHL of Sweden. And he had some simple rules, which was, he established you work hard every day, be a good teammate, be curious, and compete every day. So though, he would do that, and you could see that, it wasn't just words, he demanded it all the time. But what you also started to recognize and see is that leaders on the team started to take that on there. You know, when when you have your peer group, or, you know, your coach may be saying that, but when your teammate is doing it every day, and then looks at you, and you're like, Hey, this is what we're doing here. And it's much easier for that person to stand in that place and demand that of their teammate or their colleague when it's coming straight from the top. Right.
Zoran Stojkovic:So you saying it's, it's a lot more powerful when teammates and colleagues police that and not absolute person that's in charge?
Unknown:Yeah, it's where we want to, I was gonna say the story a little later. But I had, I had seen when I was working in Sweden, I had been a high performance coordinator with the women's team. And I recognized early on that I had a very talented group of individuals, but there was a low confidence in who they were as, as a team, and I couldn't get my head around what was the issue? They were so incredibly skilled, and you could even hear from the outside, they had been told that forever, they are so talented, they're almost spoiled. So there wasn't this cultural piece of like, and I looked at them, like, Are you okay with this, like, and also like, like, you're so fragile like this, I can't compute, you know, super talented, but unconfident. It doesn't make sense. So I kind of diving into that whole experience, I just started to realize that not only the leadership, the general manager had said, we need to change the direction of this boat. But they also started to say, I could see inside, like, I needed to listen really hard with the group of people that I had, why they were thinking that so that everybody at least felt heard over the course of months. So they weren't sort of ghosting out of the situation. But I also could see that there was a core group of women on that team, who, who were ready to push this forward. And they that core group, I said, that's, that's them, they're going to infect everything around them. And slowly as they, you could see the youngers, you know, rookies being influenced by the positive attitude, the working hard, having fun finding joy and what they were doing, you could see the younger ones less intimidated and say, I want some of that. And some of the other ones that had a hard time really wanting to resisting, sadly, it became a choice of either you get in or you get out, like that's the choice like at this point, as a team and is trying to get successful. There's I could see the coaching and the general manager said, you know, we've been at this for a year and a half. And now we need to recognize that we have a core group, and there's a few other that are creating some toxic dysfunctions, and we either need to include them, or they need to have a conversation, when are you going to buy in or get out? That's where we're at?
Zoran Stojkovic:Yeah. And so, I mean, is that, that that might be an example of how you've helped shaped team cultures. I'm curious of other. Maybe another example, or can you tell me a little bit more about what your role was?
Monique Kavelaars:My role was, first off, I wasn't calling or deciding, I was a softer leader in that I would say I was leading from the bench, I was like, I wasn't deciding who got to play. So I had a relationship with coaching staff who gave me a lot of rope to go and be involved with the athletes beyond just my Exynos of the job. And I think for a lot of them, they were living so much in their head. So there was a long period of time where I spent a lot of time just getting to meet them, hearing their story, understanding their struggle, questioning why they were believing certain things about themselves. And you could see shoulders drop, when they were able to feel like they were sharing it and that I was of some sort and authority, but still not deciding whether they were playing or not. But then I had an opportunity to, you know, in the psychology of sport to sort of recognize Hey, guys, like you get to decide this, you're in charge of this, this is your team, you know, we are just all on the side here and that that helped to change. Listening was key, also then starting to message in what was the values that they wanted to win and, and having gone from the first year to like halfway through the tableau of it to winning the whole Swedish championship four or five years later was just mind boggling to see what the mind in their collective culture could create.
Zoran Stojkovic:Wow. What sport was it?
Monique Kavelaars:It was it's floorball. But in English, in Sweden, they call it"innebandy". So it was a semi pro team. It's in in Gothenburg. So, yeah.
Zoran Stojkovic:Sweet floorball. Was that the one with the with the ring? No, is that ringette?
Monique Kavelaars:it's a ball with a whole bunch of holes in it. And, and the stick itself is actually it's got mesh, there's holes in it. So you can smack that ball hard. But it's going to start slowing down the minute it goes off. You're like me, and Sweden, they're incredibly skilled at this. It's nuts, nuts,
Zoran Stojkovic:Neat. And so your role was actually like listening to them and questioning some of their self doubt?
Monique Kavelaars:yeah, part of that. And then also collectively doing a lot of team engagement exercises, where I was trying to do little Mic drop moments, like, you know, you can destroy something easily. But it's so hard to build something. So which one are you going to be a part of. So I did a lot of group activities, which was and I tried to make it as fun training hard is hard. And just made it fun and engaging, where they could laugh and enjoy it, but also lay there and go, holy cow, we've just trashed ourselves, and we're getting stronger. Like they could believe like, I am tougher than everybody else out there. So that belief also so listening, but also collectively doing a lot of team building activities to sort of get them to buy into each other
Zoran Stojkovic:team building activities have gotten a bad rep for...you know, these teams will just go and do these, just these team building activities and not have some of these authentic and vulnerable conversations and not actually live in alignment with the values and know what the values are. And, and they'll think that that's it, or they'll put down some values on a sheet and put it up on a wall in the office and be like, yeah, that's, that's it. We've worked on Team culture. And now we can go back to being what we were before.
Monique Kavelaars:It's hard I get it. It's like, it's hard. It's like that's not going to do it. It's not.
Zoran Stojkovic:is there one that you found to be really potent and powerful?
Monique Kavelaars:Um, I do with teams, it sometimes can be very heavy, where I am brought in to do a program where we look at the cohesiveness of a team and I do a survey, basically asking everybody, do you trust each other? Like, do you apologize to each other? And they had to take it from their perspective of what their team was, when you argue is, are people holding grudges? Is there gossip? are you sharing information? Do you withhold information from people, so really like sticky stuff? So I collect that data, and then I create a program like a come to Jesus moment, like, Alright, let's talk about this. And sometimes it can be very uncomfortable, I try to have a good sense of humor about it, I usually understand some context, what's going on in the room. And when I get brought into those situations, it's often because leadership is just like, I'm trying everything here. I don't know what it is. And sadly, sometimes I feel like I am the kiss of death. Because often it's that one or two individuals that have made it really hard for the entire team. And this is sort of like, let's have a conversation about it. And sometimes that individuals with they may not mean it, they're just an accidental mess maker. They are not Oh, I had no idea or an awareness of what individual preferences are for individuals. So somebody may Hey, I do this, because this is just my personality. Where and when you do this, did it I'm sensing. It's personal. Like it's sort of like, let's clean the air here. So that that's one thing that I feel even on the sports team, we've done where we had, you know, a room, let's get it out. Let's talk about it. It's uncomfortable, though. Especially when sometime we're humans, you know, we sometimes we we all have bad behavior. unavoidable.
Zoran Stojkovic:Yeah. And that uncomfortableness leads to growth. Yep. So if that if that doesn't happen, if we don't ask those questions. I mean, I guess sometimes going in, a leader may not want to open a certain can of worms. So just just being you know.
Unknown:And sometimes I go, Oh, my gosh, is heavy. But I also not a person, I'm very impatient, where I say, Hey, you know, here's the choice. We're at the crossroads. I'm not sitting here. I want to sometimes an individual requires coaching, but I'm thinking of the team's performance. And I said, granted, I get it, but you have to recognize there's something here that's just pulling everybody down. So get some help. But there's also a sense of like, do you even see what's happening and it may not be one individual it may be just habits and patterns of how people are doing things. You know, not holding each other accountable and not directing you know, or thinking of your individual result rather than the collective risk. You know how I you know, I scored the goal, but we still lost but look at me I still scored.
Zoran Stojkovic:Yeah, it's it's so important to have that team first mindset. That's I think any any team that I've been on or lead? That's that's the thing that really speaks to me when people are very focused on themselves. And that that example would would definitely that would irked me that was that was a teammate.
Monique Kavelaars:Yeah, no. Well, I just watched a great TV series on Apple TV. It's called Ted Lasso, I think you'd like it. It's a soccer player. It's just hilarious, funny. But there is that dynamics going on on the team. There's this rock star of a player who does not hide his opinion. It's exaggerated, it's TV. But it's interesting to see everybody's role is important, even if it doesn't score the goal. And sometimes if we have a culture that doesn't appreciate that, or doesn't, you know, we live in a culture where there's such a glorified exposure of everyone's best day and what have you. Sometimes it's like, no, there's other things here at play. I know that's a bit deeper, but that's a big part of it, too. For me.
Zoran Stojkovic:Yeah, it is. And you've already touched upon a couple of toxic behaviors. I mean, those can really rip apart a culture and a team and can really, if those cracks, those little cracks can turn into into bigger cracks and lead to to a downfall of a team essentially, like what what have you found to be some of the top toxic behaviors and for Team culture? And how have you dealt with them? Or how have you advised leaders to deal with them?
Monique Kavelaars:Okay. So when I've done assessments within organizations, we get a little bit of a rundown on toxic behaviors, like gossip, grudges, not sharing information, not trusting team fates, follow through silos, what have you. And once we I think, like any conscious behavior, if it's at least identified in the room, first and foremost, it lose a lot of its power, just because it's right there. So and when there's a collective understanding of that is not acceptable. There's years who first stopped a step of how to actually improve upon it, often it can happen where the person's intentions are, you know, they don't need to do it. So there's a coaching element a discussion. If you're looking at an a sports team, I can, I can recognize that it's hard, because they still, you know, I've seen it where someone's behavior is so poor, but they are the all star player on the team. And so you're like, Oh, my gosh, we have to accommodate this. And it takes a lot of bravery for leadership to to make a choice of what's most important, and I, I wouldn't welcome standing in those shoes, because it's a it's a hard one, when you have to make that choice. So I would say those toxic behaviors, having identifying it would be key, coaching the individual when they do it, and trying to understand what where they're missing it. And if it gets to a point where they're still like a neglect or an indifference to it, there's got to be a come to Jesus moment of like, Hey, listen, this is, this is what we're valuing. And this is what you're not giving. So you have to make a choice, or we'll make it for you.
Zoran Stojkovic:Yeah, and, and if somebody you saying, if somebody violates the behavior, after being given a chance to change it, being coached on it, it's that it's really that choice of if you don't change something, you're, you're gone. Even if they're a star player?
Monique Kavelaars:You see I find that hard I find in a sports team, it's really hard. Sometimes we have, you want to accommodate it, and you want to understand it and sometimes in the moment and heat of competition, I'm stepping in, in corporate and in sport, you know, I myself in high stress in situations have lost my mind. And being a person to walk in the room and apologize after the fact is so vital. So to coach that individual, if that's what they're doing. also recognizing maybe they need something this is more getting in the psychology of it, maybe they need something to perform that we need to give them a space for. So there's a lot more complexity there within an organization. I have been in several I think there were three or four teams last year where we've done a program about you know, cohesiveness and what behaviors we would to engage and then a month later that person that was really struggling or not really adding value was asked to leave and you could see the rest of the team just okay, I think I you know, they they almost look to leadership, like are you going to accept this is this is this gonna be okay? Because if it is, then I you start losing the good people, because they're like, I'm out. I don't want to do this. So.
Zoran Stojkovic:Yeah, so you're you're saying that, yeah, that's, that's massive, just actually following through on it even though it's it's hard and the star performer is contributing a lot but taking away in other ways and and i think that you know, 100 On a team, there's no, there's no neutral. Like I think there's there's either you have a negative contribution or positive contribution. And if you're if you're not contributing anything that may as well be negative contribution. And if somebody is taking away, even though they're on paper, they're doing great results, great stats, great sales, whatever it is, maybe they got to go in, the team's gonna perform better, as you said, their shoulders are gonna get relaxed. And
Monique Kavelaars:well, if you're taking 10, or 20%, out of your teammates performance based upon your own behavior, and you go around the room 10% here, 10% here, 10%, you don't even have one person in the room anymore. So you're you're playing, you know, 10 men out of 11.
Zoran Stojkovic:Wait, what do you mean by that?
Monique Kavelaars:Well, if you're playing a soccer game, and somebody, you're going to get a red card, somebody's going to have to walk off. But if everybody is just accommodating someone's poor behavior, and they're showing up less of themselves based upon it, and that's 10% of you and 10% of me, I'm leaning out, all of a sudden, you got 10 people in the room, and you got 100%, you got some you have, you're missing an entire player.
Zoran Stojkovic:Yeah, even though you have all the players, you're still missing the entire player, because somebody is having a terrible influence.
Monique Kavelaars:You know, the math is there, you'd lost. You got 100 now and I'm like, there, there's, you're missing a lot in what the whole team as a whole could be.
Zoran Stojkovic:I like that.
Monique Kavelaars:It's not something...And I say this in the long game. Like in the short game, we have, you know, moments where we mess up and we have you but we correct and we self correct or the team helps us or, but if we can see a pattern. And you all of a sudden see people not being able to be the best that they can it's like okay, wait a minute, I'm, I'm losing players now.
Zoran Stojkovic:Yeah. And and the diminishers. We talked about where they take away or make everybody perform worse. There's there's the multipliers who may raise models, right? They may raise people's and that's the people you want on your team?
Monique Kavelaars:Absolutely.
Zoran Stojkovic:And maybe they're not the star performer. And maybe they're in the shadows. But for some, for whatever reason, they're the lifeblood, they're within the DNA of the team. They live the values of the team.
Monique Kavelaars:Absolutely. I think you and I spoke a little earlier about Simon Sinek. And he has this whole chart. And he was talking about competence. Like he was looking at the military. And he had this thing where he was looking at Marines. And he said, you know, if capability to pick people knit, you know, teams, seal six, and he said, you know, competence, and trust on the diagram. And so obviously, you want somebody who's high trust, high competence. However, if you have somebody who's on low trust, but high competence, they're toxic to the environment. And they're not somebody you want on your team. But if you take someone in relation to who's maybe a little less competent, but really high on trust, you take that person every day, because they're going to make everybody better. And I and I think the expression the guys in the Marine had said, how they just said it was like, do I trust you with my life? But I do I trust you with my money and my wife?
Zoran Stojkovic:That's a good one.
Monique Kavelaars:So they were pretty hardcore of like, if you want in our crew, this is what this is the family we're in, you know, you gotta be all of that.
Zoran Stojkovic:Competence and trust. And competence doesn't have the bigger premium trust is the premium is on trust.
Monique Kavelaars:Absolutely. Absolutely.
Zoran Stojkovic:Wow. We've talked a bunch about cultures, culture, but how can leaders measure and analyze team culture? It's sometimes very fluffy and fairy and, and it's hard to hard to really see. But what are ways that are tools that people can use?
Monique Kavelaars:in sports teams, you're winning, and you're getting people wanting to be on the team. And people are having fun, and even when they're losing, they still want to work hard at it. So there's a little measurement there internally isn't organizations, you're going to see it in turnover, people are going to lean out, they're not going to want and you're going to say why are we looking for people, there's not a growth, you don't see any growth, there's turnover occurring. And you can see a lack of engagement, quality of work lessons. And, you know, you you see good people leave, like those are those are, that's actually probably already too late. Like you've let things slide so long, that it's gotten that bad. So if you're really not paying attention, that's your measurement. But I think as an organization that is trying to thrive, I think it's important to tap into, you know, needs assessments within an organization really collectively asking and developing people like managers in employees, so that they see that you value them not only for the with the work they do for you, but and in their own career path. That's a value that I think everybody wants to feel universally so if you want to measure it, I think when You see people investing in that there's an indication that they're in for the long game to
Zoran Stojkovic:The turnover.
Monique Kavelaars:the turnover, you know, the growth is not happening, you're losing good people. And also your reputation. Like sometimes it's like ask your, you know, sometimes I've heard people can you left the organization? Can you call them find out why. And sometimes this this current state is people are looking for new opportunities and what have you. So it has nothing personal, they like the job, they just wanted a different experience. But often, if you look at a two year period, or one year period, even less than that, and you can say, Why, what's happening, I need to do it. So we do it that the, you know, cohesion test where we assess how everybody feels on trust, conflict, commitment, accountability and results. We have a conversation, so they get a real temperature gauge. And then we do it again in three months to see if there's a progress or improvement because they feel like hey, we're getting better.
Zoran Stojkovic:That's massive. And with the, with the turnover, it's, it's it really is about potentially not doing the exit interviews when people leave, but doing an entry entry interview. When people come in, hey, what's gonna make you thrive in this job? drives you crazy? What can we do to support you so that you're doing your best work? And, you know, understanding the person? I think I think that's massive.
Monique Kavelaars:Yeah, it's like an operations manual. Here's my, here's my, who I am. And here's who we are. Let's make sure we understand each other. And I think that's key. Because I think, you know, I could segue, but I mean, speaking in a very low context, like, let's not complicate it, let's not speak in code here. Let's make it transparently obvious to everyone who you are what you need, where's your growth? We're invested in you, this is what we value, like, make it no secret. You know, I think it's your rallying cry, like, make it part of what you value.
Zoran Stojkovic:Yeah, you're saying no secret. So that means transparency.
Monique Kavelaars:transparency, or sometimes when I say secret, it's not done intentionally, but spend some effort on defining it. So when people come in, they know don't make it their job, to figure it out. You know, and, and also, when you when you have it, live it, you know, don't say it, do it, you know, that's another big step. That's huge.
Zoran Stojkovic:The clarity, the clarity of how you function as a company, how you function as a manager, or leader in a company, and communicating that and maybe even communicating that in the interviews so that people can see if it's a good fit.
Monique Kavelaars:Yeah, yeah, I've heard that too. I saw I heard an interview where they were really trying to establish if this person was, you know, really a fit for the organization, because they recognize they had an incredible culture, and they were really not wanting to bring anybody in that would mess that up. And so they were trying to interview people, okay, let's just go, let's go across the street, and we're gonna grab some lunch, and they wanted to just see how they interacted with the waitstaff or the person who was cleaning the table, or hearing their story in a very casual setting. So they could get indications like, No, we really are these, this is what we our culture is and and you can say really good things in an interview. But let's take you out of an uncut, you know, unusual situation. So we can really tap into this, who are you? Like, are you going to fit in here? Or I've heard organizations where they'll say, we'll hire you. And if it's not a fit, we'll give you $5,000 to leave
Zoran Stojkovic:Zappos?
Monique Kavelaars:Yep. That's, there you go. Leave. If it's not, you know, we'll pay you to go it's all good.
Zoran Stojkovic:Some people take it and I think, I think in terms of Yeah, the restaurant pieces is really good because then you can actually see whether this is a person you can actually go to lunch with when they work there, which is important as as a person you can grab a coffee with and and talk to not just about work, which is which is really important.
Monique Kavelaars:I had heard them when Tina Fey was starting her TV series on 30 rock, she was trying to develop or bring in writers and she would talk to Michael Lauren from Saturday Night Live and say, you know, what, what words of wisdom Do you have when I hire my team? And he said, try to think of who you want to see at three in the morning in the hallway. And if you're in the interview and think that this person will annoy you at two or three in the morning, then don't hire them. Because that's what you'll have to see at 2 or 3 in the morning is them in the hallway.
Zoran Stojkovic:That's really good. Yeah, that's solid. Yeah. Monique, what does cultivating your culture mean to you? What does that phrase mean to you?
Monique Kavelaars:Um, cultivating your culture is making it a priority. It's not a mission statement. It's not a value. It's an every day priority. It's depending on what your values are. And I think collectively I think cultivating a culture here is inclusion and connection and engagement, trying to get people to align and see themselves wanting to contribute. But cultivating it is what it means to me. It's not something that you just talk about, it's something you have to do every day, as an organization, as a sports team, and the reward on the other side of it is so huge, so huge.
Zoran Stojkovic:So you're saying what I'm hearing you say is it's something you you're cultivating and creating everyday? It's an everyday priority. It's connection, engagement, inclusion of everybody.
Monique Kavelaars:Yeah. Yeah.
Zoran Stojkovic:Neat. And is there, I know, you've mentioned some really great tools and suggestions. But is there one practical tool that leaders can use tomorrow to cultivate the culture of their team?
Monique Kavelaars:I love the five Behaviors of a cohesive team by Patrick lencioni. It's a really quick, easy read of a book. And looking at behaviors within a team, a small team of like eight to 10 people. They also have tools, and we use this tool in our organization where we tap into how we take a temperature of the team. And it helps leadership. So that tool I think, is important, particularly of if they don't feel unnecessarily skilled on having conversations about trust or conflict, it doesn't have to be heavy lifting, but it needs to be, you know, identified and seen. So I think that's a great tool. There's so much stuff out there. I recently was just reading a book, it doesn't really have to do with company culture. But I found it very interesting. It's called culture map by Aaron Meyers. And it talks about global cultures. But I find it interesting about some of the eight values of how people, when you look at your own individual culture as an organization, you could take those eight values that she describes and says, okay, where do we sit on the pendulum? how, you know, when we make decisions, how do we do it? When we lead? How do we how do we develop trust? Is it task based? Or is it relationship based, like, it's a really great definer you could kind of scratch your head about so I think that's a really good tool
Zoran Stojkovic:Neat. And those are some of my next question was going to be some some book suggestions on culture. And you've already mentioned the five Behaviors of a cohesive team and the culture map. Is there another book or resource that you think would be good to tap into?
Monique Kavelaars:different cultures? You know, I really I we read a while ago is a great book by Daniel Coyle, and it's called Culture Code. It's a great one he's also got what's the other one? He has
Zoran Stojkovic:Talent code.
Monique Kavelaars:talent code, right? So the talent code first culture Cody's got it now. I see there's there's so many good books that I have. So atomic habits, but that's more like self development. But yet culture I think culture code, five Behaviors of a cohesive team, a lot of Patrick lencioni, he's all of his book series are really based upon trying to draw upon the collective intelligence of a team.
Zoran Stojkovic:Nice. Those are really good suggestions I've read. I've read the culture code, atomic habits. And I've not read the five Behaviors of a cohesive team, so I'll have to get them.
Monique Kavelaars:Oh it's good. It's an easy read. It's a fable. It's a really easy read.
Zoran Stojkovic:I'll check that out. Tell me about cover Lars consulting. Am I pronouncing that okay?
Unknown:right. That's good. It's good. I will I started, I start my own consulting firm during a pandemic. So my timing is fantastic. No, I had always been wanting to kind of branch off on my own. So I still work with the gentleman I had been with in the spring. But I've started more, starting my consulting firm only because I really enjoy the intention around organizations seeking to improve their teams, their people, not only beyond who they are as people, but as a team. But then also I really want to get into like, how do we actually make better decisions together, find solutions, you know, make decisions, find solutions, identify problems and how we're doing it in a really quick and, you know, result focused format. So I'm kind of tinkering around, packaging, all that. So that's what, a few months ago.
Zoran Stojkovic:So we're looking at team culture and and cohesiveness, but also systems and processes for peak creativity and innovation?
Monique Kavelaars:Absolutely design thinking design sprints. And then also some personal assessment leadership tools that we use to just sort of help managers lead people better.
Zoran Stojkovic:So cool. That's exciting. And like, What are you up to right now? And where can people find you? Where can people connect with you?
Monique Kavelaars:my website and I'm on LinkedIn, and right now I'm chatting with you. And so a lot of the opportunities that I get like this to be able to speak with people so I tried to keep people who are following me on Instagram or LinkedIn to sort of see some of the conversations we're having and... Yeah, some of the projects I'm doing and yeah, gonna be in Tokyo this summer. So with as an athlete, mentor, so I'm sort of working a lot with them too, which is, is sort of an off branch of things. So yeah.
Zoran Stojkovic:Cool. Awesome. Well, hey, thanks so much for taking the time to, to speak to me and to share and and you know, your insights. And there's a lot of gems in here. And I'm really, I think people are really going to enjoy this episode.
Monique Kavelaars:Great. Thank Well, thank you for having me.
Zoran Stojkovic:Yeah.
Monique Kavelaars:Good luck to you!
Zoran Stojkovic:We'll do this again sometime. Thank you. Hey, thanks for tuning in to cultivate your culture. Rate and reviewer podcast on iTunes. Any websites and resources mentioned in the podcast as well as the guests information can be found on the show www.kizo.ca/podcast. Here's a sneak peek of what's coming up in our episode next week.
Jennifer Wallinga:To the coach ones who had to make a very difficult decision to cut a really a really effective player with a very high performance player, but toxic and completely counter to a lot of the cultural values that the team has established together, just resisting.