In this episode of Cultivate your Culture, we talk with Nadine Dubina, who is the former Associate Director of Coach Development for the United States Olympic & Paralympic Committee. She blends her passion for coaching with an experiential learning facilitation style to create coach development workshops, courses, and presentations that are unique, practical, and purposeful. Nadine collaborated on creating the 6 guiding principles of the USOPC’s Quality Coaching Framework and uses this as the basis for all of her coaching work. Nadine earned a B.S. in Athletic Coaching Education from West Virginia University, an M.A. in Sport Psychology from California State University, Fresno and is currently pursuing her Ed.D in Coaching and Teaching Studies at West Virginia University. She was a competitive gymnast and has coached and judged gymnastics at various levels over the past decade. She shares easy-to-use principles for getting the boat moving on culture change, various models on leadership, and how to navigate the change process.
Connect with Nadine on Twitter, LinkedIn, or Instagram.
The host, Zoran Stojkovic believes that we are all born to flourish in work and life. Through his company, Kizo, he equips organizations and people with culture and mindset tools to reach full engagement through powerful workshops, memorable keynotes, and transformative individual consultations.
In this episode of Cultivate your Culture, we talk with Nadine Dubina, who is the former Associate Director of Coach Development for the United States Olympic & Paralympic Committee. She blends her passion for coaching with an experiential learning facilitation style to create coach development workshops, courses, and presentations that are unique, practical, and purposeful. Nadine collaborated on creating the 6 guiding principles of the USOPC’s Quality Coaching Framework and uses this as the basis for all of her coaching work. Nadine earned a B.S. in Athletic Coaching Education from West Virginia University, an M.A. in Sport Psychology from California State University, Fresno and is currently pursuing her Ed.D in Coaching and Teaching Studies at West Virginia University. She was a competitive gymnast and has coached and judged gymnastics at various levels over the past decade. She shares easy-to-use principles for getting the boat moving on culture change, various models on leadership, and how to navigate the change process.
Connect with Nadine on Twitter, LinkedIn, or Instagram.
The host, Zoran Stojkovic believes that we are all born to flourish in work and life. Through his company, Kizo, he equips organizations and people with culture and mindset tools to reach full engagement through powerful workshops, memorable keynotes, and transformative individual consultations.
If you think about a fish tank, so you've got fish, and from the outside, we can see that the fish are swimming in water, but to the fish, the water is just a part of their habitat, right? It's just a part of what they experience every day. And I think that culture is very synonymous with the water inside of a fish tank is that we are swimming in it every day. But sometimes it's not something that we always notice. You can you tend to notice it when it gets really really dirty and needs cleaned, right or when it's really really, really pristine and and things are going really well and it's almost effortless. Nadine Dubina is the Associate Director of Coach Development for the United States Olympic and Paralympic Committee. Nadine blends her passion for coaching with an experiential learning facilitation style to create coach development workshops, courses and presentations that are unique, practical and purposeful. Nadine collaborated on creating the six guiding
Zoran Stojkovic:Hello, I'm your host, Zoran Stojkovic and welcome to Cultivate your Culture. In this podcast we'll principles of the OSUPC's Quality Coaching Framework and be discussing how leaders can build connected high performing uses this as the basis for all her coaching work. Nadine earned teams in business and sport using actionable tools, a Bachelors of Science in Athletic Coaching Education from evidence-based systems, and simple processes. West Virginia University, a Master's of Arts in Sports Psychology from California State University for us now and is currently pursuing her Ed.D. in Coaching and Teaching Studies at West Virginia University. She was a competitive gymnast and has coached and judge gymnastics at various levels over the past decade. Nadine, welcome to the show.
Nadine Dubina:Thanks so much. Happy to be here.
Zoran Stojkovic:Excited, excited. I think we're gonna we're gonna have a great conversation today. So I'm curious in your journey, like what's, what's that journey of how you got involved with sport, some of your coaching experiences to get in where you're where you to now?
Nadine Dubina:Yeah, so I will, I will kind of take you through a couple of the moments where things shifted for me. So I grew up a competitive gymnast, my mom put me into gymnastics classes when I was five. And just I loved flipping and I loved the sport. And so I continued on with it all the way into high school. In high school, I dealt with a couple of different like, transition periods. Like whenever your body starts growing, you start having mental blocks like that, throughout my career there in gymnastics, worked through some of those, and was pretty injury free until I tore my ACL. And so major injury, tore the ACL. And decided that was kind of shift number one for me to go from being an athlete to transitioning into coaching. So I was 16-17 at the at the time and had the opportunity to stay involved by by becoming a coach of some of the younger younger girls, the class kids, things like that. And I just really loved it at the time. I didn't really know what I wanted to do. But I knew that I loved I loved the sport and I loved impacting young people. So found a program close to home. I'm from Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, Morgantown, West Virginia was only about an hour-ish away. So it was far enough away that my parents weren't knocking on you know, the door but was close enough to come home for those comforts. And they had an athletic coaching education program. And really there it was, where I got to experience what Division I Athletics was like. So I was extremely privileged and honored to work with the Women's Division I Gymnastics team at West Virginia University. They're typically a top 25 schools so so kind of in that that hunt there, but in the 20-ish ranges, and I got to spend time as their team manager. I was at every practice, I traveled with them to competitions, I learned from the coaches, developed a really good relationship with them, developed a great relationship with the athletes, did some student coaching myself. And during that time, I got to see some of the back end of what happens outside of the actual gym setting. So what else comes along with coaching, it's not simply just the practices and the competitions. And at that point in my career, I decided that I didn't want to pursue the college coaching route at that time. I wanted to look more into this phenomenon that I was that I was seeing in the gym all the time of why can some gymnast perform when the lights are on, and why do others crumble? And yet, everyone everyone could do you know, what, what, what they were set out to do in practices. But it really came to that performance space. And I found that the differentiating factor wasn't the physical body. It was the it was the brain. So I went shifted to learn more about how to incorporate mental training into gymnastics. So got worked under an amazing mentor, Professor, I still talk to him, and he still has a major impact on my life. Dr. Wade Gilbert. He's a leading coaching researcher, also from Canada, he now lives here in the US. And it was really then where I essentially shifted once more, and I went, I can have an impact on athletes. But I have so many questions as a coach, and there wasn't always an answer. And so I started to take a step back and go under under Dr. Gilbert's guidance of if I'm able to answer these questions that I have, as a coach, there might be other coaches out there, who I can help, which then would multiply my impact with more with more athletes. And so kind of went down this road of I didn't even know that coach, education coach development was a thing. And luckily, I again, was privileged and honored to know really good people. I also will say I did the work. So I will give myself some of that credit as well. But I got to have the opportunity to move into a role with the US Olympic and Paralympic Committee. I've been with them for the past six years in different different capacities. And I have worked with amazing people, and we've done some really, really cool work. So yeah, just learning and trying to, to give back as much as I can.
Zoran Stojkovic:Nice. Nadine, I had Valorie Kondos Field on the show a couple of episodes ago and that was...
Nadine Dubina:Literally is my mentor, and she doesn't know it but I am. I literally love her.[LAUGHTER]
Zoran Stojkovic:..was amazing. And her her story of going from ballet, getting a head coaching position without having done gymnastics. And and that whole story is quite interesting. And her view on on Team culture and how to create it is is really interesting. She tells some cool stories about challenges with building buy in and things like that and stuff. So why don't we start here? Tell me what team culture isn't.
Nadine Dubina:It isn't a lie. So when I think about team culture, and I think that one of the hardest parts is that sometimes we talk about it as what we want it to be, which is there, there is absolutely a need for that. But what your team culture is at the time, it doesn't lie, it gives you the truth. And so sometimes that's that's the harder part is accepting where you're at and where you want to move forward. And but yes, I don't know if that's actually a good answer. But that was the first one that came to mind.
Zoran Stojkovic:What is the truth? What kind of truth is it telling us?
Nadine Dubina:I think that what it tells us is, it's the things that we don't let slip by us the things that we uphold. So we're kind of looking at the line. You know, it's the thing, it's the bar, it's the standard that we set. And sometimes we think the standard is one place. And the truth is that it might be another so it's being realistic about where the standards that you said are where your behaviors as a coach are. And one of the phrases that I love, is that when it comes to culture and building these different things is that culture can't happen through you, unless it happens within you. And I believe that is from Tim Kite. He's a leadership development expert. But I just love that notion, because if you as a coach are setting an example, in that example, does not match your expectations for what you're trying to build. Those two things are never going to meet. So it's really about I think starting with the coach, or the leadership, whoever's you know, the leadership team, the coach, and what is it within them that they are willing to uphold? Because then that will get through them to their athletes to be able to have that standard. But yeah, I think sometimes culture is...ends up being the things that we let slip, and then we go, "well, that's not the standard", but every time that you let it slip, that becomes the new standard.
Zoran Stojkovic:Right, and so what what that phrase means to me is, you can't go through the motions, you have to buy into the culture, you have to feel the culture, you have to live the culture, but it's there's different ways of living it. It's like living it because somebody told me to do it, or do I actually, am I fully aligned with it? Am I in synergy with this? on a deeper level? So then how can we define team culture? Like how? What's your way of defining it and talking about it?
Nadine Dubina:Defining it for me, I think it's I think we probably need to do a better job of this as as a profession as a whole. But for me, it's, it speaks a bit more to the gray space. So culture is not black and white, a lot of the times we look at it, and we go, "Oh, my gosh, what is the magic that's happening on that team?" What is it when it comes to...I truly think it's a three legged stool of what is the collective thoughts? What's the collective emotions, and what are the collective behaviors that are happening. And I say collective specifically, because we're talking, you know, about this, this team culture piece, and within that collective, there are going to be individuals, and not all those individuals are going to think, feel and behave the same way. But if collectively, those three pieces of this "stool", right are all there, then you're going to be working towards something great. And you get to define what that what you're working towards is in those different areas. But I think that, you know, when we think about the I like to think about the power of three a lot simply because a triangle is the strongest shape known in our physical world. So if you look at thoughts, feelings, behaviors, they all affect one another. And if you don't pay attention to all three of them, your stool becomes very uneven, right? And then will more than likely break. So, so yeah, I didn't, I realize now that reflecting back on that that wasn't a great definition.[LAUGHTER] So I am struggling with this, just like a lot of our coaches out there are as well. But when it comes down to it, I think it's, I think it's the collective thoughts, feelings, and behaviors of a team working towards a common goal.
Zoran Stojkovic:I think that's a great definition. Part of it's tangible, and a part of it is in that gray space. So a piece of it, we can see and measure and a piece of it, we can't. Why is it important to cultivate the culture of a business or sports team?
Nadine Dubina:It's almost like if you think about a fish tank, right, so you've got fish, and from the outside, we can see that the fish are swimming in water. Right, but to the fish, the water is just a part of their habitat, right? It's just a part of what they experience every day. And I think that culture is very synonymous with the water inside of a fish tank is that we are swimming in it every day. But sometimes it's not something that we always notice. You tend to notice it when it gets really, really dirty and needs cleaned, right? Or when it's really, really pristine. And, and things are going really well. And it's almost effortless. But you know, it's in those fluctuations that happen all the time. And and I think that we have to keep a gauge on that kind of like a temperature check a clarity, check to know what's going on because it exists with us. It's not something that exists as a separate part of us. We're a part of it. And it's a part of us in our team cultures. And so, so yeah, it's important just because, because it exists.
Zoran Stojkovic:Hmm..so you're saying we're the fish in the water, and sometimes we don't know the waters there, but it's there, regardless of whether we know it's there or not, or whether we believe it's there or not. And that's why culture is important. Because it's that water. It's that in a way, it's that glue that holds holds things together,
Nadine Dubina:Or breaks things down. It works both ways, right? It's on a continuum.
Zoran Stojkovic:Yeah, it might be dirty water.
Nadine Dubina:Yeah, exactly.
Zoran Stojkovic:And culture. It's amazing talking about culture, because when I look around, some companies and teams think they have culture figured out but I think we really have no idea. And it's really hard to pinpoint. So let's say somebody's like, yeah, I get what culture is. I get why it's important. Now how can we cultivate culture, how can we build it? What is the starting place? Who has to be in those conversations?
Nadine Dubina:Yeah, well, I want to just bring a little bit of intention to something you just said there of, we don't really know how to do this. You know, some people think they do. Well, some people, some people don't. You know, it's, it's really complex, right? And we don't, we don't quite know what it is. That's because we're human beings, and we are this massively complex, unpredictable, body. And, and yeah, so I just, I just want to give us some grace. And that is that, I think that sometimes we look for it to be a little bit more of a hard science, and there is definitely uses for that. But also, we have to realize that I don't know if we'll ever figure ourselves out. So I think all the work that we're doing is, is really phenomenal, but then also giving us grace and this space, because I know that at least for me working we do work with our teams on culture, and it can feel like you're constantly failing. And we're not, it's that we're constantly evolving and learning. But if the standard is perfection, then then we're setting ourselves up for something as human beings that we know, doesn't exactly happen that way. So just wanted to bring a little bit of light to that, first of being, like, remember that were people that we're talking about here. And so then kind of moving in, of where do we start? I think that you can only start with you. I think that when you look to start outside of yourself, and you haven't done the work to really go, who am I? What do I value? How do I want to show up? What type of atmosphere do I want to create? I think that when we skip that step, which is one of the hardest steps, that's where that's where we can kind of get off track before we're even on the tracks. And one of the ways that I like to do this, and, and this is a couple years old now. But if the readers or listeners haven't seen Simon Sinek, "Start with Why" TED Talk. I'm a firm believer in 'starting with why'. And that's very, very fuzzy for a lot of us. And it takes some introspection, and it takes some deliberate, deliberate practice to to get to a place where you feel like you know what your"why" is. But from there, you can then now start aligning to your purpose, your values, and then name some behaviors after that. And then you can go,"here's my gauge", right? "Did I show up in alignment with this?" And if not, how can I shift? Right? "Did I show up? Yes, I did." Okay, great. Let's keep doing that. And then you bring other people into that. And some of the best coaches out there that we have studied, a lot of it comes from basketball, simply because there's a lot more footage for these coaches. But if you look at the, you know, Steve Kerr's, and Phil Knights, and you know, the even Miss About looking at her and Pete Carroll from football, right? They create atmospheres that are there. Their purpose and values are present in every single step of the way. Right. And if we are able to do that first, as coaches, we then give permission for other people to show up in the best alignment with themselves. And that's when you start bringing in more of the collective conversation of when I'm in alignment, you now have permission to be in alignment, and then we can create collective alignment. Yeah. And that's, again, still hard. And still not completely, completely a, here's how to do this 123, right, because we're looking for a lot of those steps. And those are easy fixes. But if we look at real change, there's easy change, and there's hard change. And hard change is behavior change. And it takes a while and you have to keep knocking on that door. And sometimes the door opens. Sometimes it's still locked, right? But you've got to keep showing up and keep moving forward. And then over time, that's whenever you start to see those effects taking place. You can do the one two threes, and it'll work for 30 minutes. Right? And this is where all the poster values come from. Because it's easy to change. Right? It's the hard change that we're after. But the work is so worth it.
Zoran Stojkovic:Wow. So you saying that you know...what I'm hearing you say is, let's start with ourselves. Let's sit down and do some of the deep work. How do I want to show up? What are my values and clarify those clarify the "why". Simon Sinek, great author, got to see him speak in Boston, sort of like two weeks before everything shut down. So that's that was awesome. And then sharing those, what you said is sharing those with others. And that'll unconsciously give other people permission to, to unleash their own "why" and to ask themselves some of those questions and physically asking people some of those questions. And then the last thing you said, is understanding the difference between easy and hard change. And the fact that it might be a harder change to change the culture of your organization or team, so not not labeling it as easy change and thinking it's going to be really easy, because as you mentioned before, we're human beings, and we're, we're complex, and we still don't really know how we work.
Nadine Dubina:Yeah, absolutely. And I'm gonna add one piece to what you said. So the second part about sharing what your why and your values are, that is 100% needed, you have to be able to use the language to share that. And I don't think you can share your, your purpose and your values enough. But that also needs to be coupled with how you model that and how that has shown up in your behaviors. Because a lot of our a lot of our learning is done through observing others, right? It's through, even if you think about babies, right, like learning how to crawl some of that a lot of it comes from them observing their surroundings. And so not only do you as a coach need to be sharing it in, in language, you also need to be sharing it in your actions.
Zoran Stojkovic:Sometimes actions, actions speak louder than words. I think that's the, that's the expression anyways. So that alignment between the values, which are important that's like the software that's the program, and then the hardware or what we're actually doing the actions and having those in alignment. And okay, that's, that's important. How, how have you shaped or helped shaped team cultures and some of the teams that you've been a part of, that you've worked with?
Nadine Dubina:Yeah. So a lot of the ways that we have we have shifted to moving is is not necessarily education is important, but there's a difference between knowledge and know how, right so knowledge is one piece of it. And I would argue that there is probably more knowledge out there than has ever been out there before. And so that piece, I think we've got, we've got covered pretty well. It's the know how that that we really have to bridge that gap. And so one of the ways that we simply do that is we go in and observe. And we're almost like, we're almost like an outside perspective for coaches to see what they're blind to, right, because we just simply can't pay attention to everything. Our brains are pattern-recognizing organisms, and so they're constantly looking for patterns. And that can sometimes actually put you more in a hole than letting you stand on top of a mountain and seeing the whole picture. So one of the ways that that we simply help is that we simply become another set of eyes to bring awareness to the environment that coaches are operating in. And then it becomes a choice, right? It just becomes, hey, I observed this, I noticed this, is this what you're intending to happen? How does this come across? Was there a reason why this was done the way that it's done? We don't say that anything is right or wrong, there is no right or wrong. It's did you choose this? And do you want this to continue happening? Or do you want to shift in a different way? So yeah, we've simply become a support system, to help coaches see what they might be missing.
Zoran Stojkovic:Right, so you've been you've been those second set of eyes, for the coaches in the training environment? And what have you noticed that separates the good companies are good companies, the good teams from, from the great teams?
Nadine Dubina:I think that some of the best teams are willing to be both vulnerable and courageous. So I don't think that one exists without the other. And I think that if we tried to, to put on too much armor, and this is coming from some of Bernie Brown's work, from the "Dare to Lead" work. We can't always self protect. We also have to be willing to show up when it's when it's safe to do that. And I think that the teams that are willing to put the work in to show who they are, and to say I screwed up, and then to also hold each other accountable to go this is how we're going to get better, they're the ones who are really able to, to be present and live inside of their inside of what they're doing. So they tend to be a lot more process-oriented. I have found that as you get more experienced in coaching, you tend to care less about the outcome. And you become more in love with the process, where less experienced coaches, and this is not, you know, a catch all for everyone. But some coaches, we're just getting into it are more about how do we win? How do I prove myself? How do we get to these certain targets, when the process gets left out of it. And it's truly about, do you love showing up for the work every day? And that's how things go. I'd also say that observation skills are massive. So I would say that some of the best coaches out there are laser focused, they don't have 12 values, they have two or three. They don't necessarily say yes to everything. They give a lot of no's. And they're able to sit back and go, "There's a lot of noise happening. But what is most important to our mission and to our goals?" And, "Can I observe what's going on, so that I can make the next best move?", instead of kind of getting this influx of everything, and reacting instead of responding.
Zoran Stojkovic:Well, those are some great differentiators between great teams and good teams. And you clearly have a keen eye for these things and scoping these things out kind of from from the daily training environment and work with teams, are there toxic behaviors that you've sometimes observed? And like, what would those be? And how have you dealt with them? And I know you said there's no good or bad, but I mean, some behaviors might have a terrible impact on on the culture of a team?
Nadine Dubina:Yes, yeah. So there's definitely a line between acceptable behavior and what's not as far as our code of ethics and moral values and all of that. And so, yeah, we have we have 100% seen this, because again, this is a human problem. It's not it's not distinctive, just to, sports. And I think that one of the, one of the biggest pieces of advice that I can give is to pay attention to...one of my phenomenal colleagues coined this term,"the athlete whispers", what are the whispers that are going on? Whenever, the coach leaves the huddle? What what are what are athletes saying in there? What's happening between three different athletes, whenever someone walks into the room and everyone goes quiet? What are what are these little whispers that are happening that are eating at the that kind of cements to try to break it down? We go back to like the fishbowl, right? Like, what's the dirt pieces that are coming into that to murkey up the water? Where's that bacteria spreading? Because that's where the real key is, it's in...how are your athletes perceiving what's going on, and how is that being spread? Because culture can sometimes take take a life of its own kind of like a virus, right? Like, it's like one bite or something, and then it just becomes wildfire. And that can be both for ways that you want to influence in the positive in ways that influence it in the negative, right? It kind of spreads. And so it's, it's really becoming aware of what's going on, when the authoritive figure is is kind of removed from that.
Zoran Stojkovic:So what might some of those bits be like? What would those what would people be saying in those whispers? For example? That would be examples of a toxic culture.
Nadine Dubina:Yeah, so I would say that any type of I mean, gossip, I know on had college teams is a massive thing, simply because it's also a part of the developmental stage that some of those athletes are going through. So, so talking badly about people behind their backs. Not having a culture of a communication where you there is accountability to speak up. We say like, don't don't stab me in the back, you know, stab me in the front, right? of like, you have to be willing to look me in the face and say this. And if you can't, then don't say it to my teammate, because they can't do anything about it. Right? And so so I think a lot of it comes more from misunderstanding people, miscommunication from the coaches, right? So there becomes a culture of athletes perceiving that certain people are liked more. And so they're given certain opportunities over others, that there's favoritism. I know that with a lot of our teams, there is a dynamic that happens where really, really, like highly qualified athletes will transition into the coaching role. But they'll still be the same on the same teams potentially, where they were competing on. So there's this dichotomy between are they my friend, am I their coach? Can I go out for a beer with them? But how do I tell they didn't make the starting lineup, like and so there's sometimes these transitions of how do we go from one role into another? That that is really hard. And if you're not willing to have open communication about it in a healthy way, that can become really toxic. But I would say that it comes down to, again, the misalignment between how you're showing up, and how in who you want to be, right, because if you think you're showing up in a certain way, and they're perceiving it in a completely different way, then there's always going to be a mismatch. And that goes for athletes and for coaches. There was a there's a soccer coach from Florida, and she's phenomenal, Becky Burly, and she just showed a video the other day of an athlete coming off of the field. So a soccer athlete, she's been taken off the field of play, and she's coming down the line, and you can tell that she is upset and they have a bench cam setup, you can tell that she's upset. And she kind of walks away from the group of girls who are cheer on their teammates, comes back puts on a penny walks away, again, visibly distraught, and one of the seniors on the team, like looks over notices that and goes and talks to her for a couple of minutes. And so they use this clip later to be a learning opportunity. And they simply asked her like, "Hey, what do you, what kind of message do you think you're sending when you come off of the field? And, and you're in this state of like, you just you look pissed, you know?" And, and she was like,"Oh my gosh, like, I was upset with myself, but not with the team". Right? Like I was still there for them. But that's not how it came off. And so sometimes it's looking at how we are being perceived when we are all in our own head. And I think that's just where it comes from. It's this miscommunication, misalignment, mismatch. I don't always think the intentions are are bad, right? It's just simply that no one's taught us how how that might be affecting everything from around us. And there's a great there's a great quote out there to have that our influence is never neutral. And that comes from Jerry Lynch, he's a sports psychologist down here, but we we are never neutral. We are either influencing unhelpful ways or unhelpful ways.
Zoran Stojkovic:And if we're neutral, we're probably the unhelpful one.
Nadine Dubina:Yes.
Zoran Stojkovic:Yeah. So yeah, those are some good examples of I mean, toxic behaviors, gossip, backstabbing, body language, and that may be perceived as not caring about the team, Geno Auriemma. The UConn women's basketball coach talks about how, when he watches game footage, he watches the bench as well. He says, if people on the bench aren't engaged, if they have their arms crossed, and they're leaning back, and they're not caring about the game, they're never gonna get playing time. And so that's how he deals with some of that behavior. How do you suggest coaches and leaders in business deal with some of those behaviors that you've mentioned?
Nadine Dubina:We have to become really open to listening. I just learned that there's three ways to listen there's listening to to talk, right? So we all know about it. We all know about it[LAUGHTER], there's listening to talk, there's listening to win or fix, which I know I go to the fixed part a lot. And then there's listening to learn. And I think that sometimes we jump to listening to tell people what we want them to hear or listening to fix what's going on, when we don't actually understand the problem. And so we have to become curious. We have to take away our judgment. And we have to really go into complex human beings right and go like how do you see the world where was this formed where Does this behavior come from? We learn all of these things? Right? And so if if it's showing up now, it's probably been taught that way. And so, so I think it's I think it's again, having a non judgmental view, being curious, asking really good questions. And the best question is, are questions that help shift perspective. And those aren't those don't come in a list, you know, it's simply as...are you present enough in that moment, to sit with that person and ask what's needed when, when you're there with them? And so I think that that, that's one of the first ways that we had to move closer, listening to learn, so that we actually understand the underpinnings of what's showing above the surface, because there's a whole lot underneath that surface. That that's causing whatever behavior is showing up.
Zoran Stojkovic:So saying, the way that the toxic behavior should be dealt with is through having authentic conversations, sitting down as a leader or as a teammate, and actually asking,"Hey, what happened there? How did you feel what was going on? Is that you Is that how you want to be seen here?" So here's how it looks from the side and listening it not listening to talk, not listening to fix, but really listening to learn?
Nadine Dubina:Yeah, yeah, I think I think it does start there. Do I think that that can happen all the time? No, I don't. But I do think that, you know, there are times when, you know, there's a standard and that's been communicated. And, and there is, you know, certain expectations that needs to be met. But there's also I think, when it comes to, I like to think about it in two ways, there's performance, right, and then there's relation or well being. And so we have to, we almost, in order to perform at a certain standard or a certain level, we have to engineer out certain pieces, right. But in order to relate to a person, you have to engineer back in certain pieces. And so that comes kind of into these thoughts, emotions, behaviors, right? Like if we think about coming to like a sports, psychology, some of this mental training stuff, right, it is not helpful to spiral into your thoughts, the moments before you're about to go up in the biggest competition of your life, right? Like, there are ways that we have trained ourselves to take that potential, those those thoughts that can come up and notice them and not let them affect our performance or those feelings, right. But if we also take that out of the relational component, then we're not going to see people as people. So whenever you are coming into those things of, alright, let's address this, let me see you for you, not you, as an athlete, you as a person, we have to bring in some of that dialogue on, especially the the emotional side of things, I know that, but it's not common, at least here in the US to have an emotional vocabulary. And to be able to sit with someone and emotions and be able to regulate yourself, because if you can't regulate yourself, you can never regulate someone else who is dysregulated. Because they're just going to feed off your energy of dysregulation. So if you're able to show up in a way where they're able to kind of de regulate, and be able to kind of go into what might be going on, that's what's going to be really helpful.
Zoran Stojkovic:Wow, that's a lot of gems, a lot of gems in there a lot of golden nuggets. And you're right, I do think that there's cultural differences, but just because a culture is a certain way, doesn't mean we can't do things differently. And doesn't mean we can't stir things up. And I'm talking about like a national culture or, or whatever. So just because there's countries where that are more open or less open, let's have these authentic conversations, let's have these fierce emotional conversations, you know, with people that we care about, and that care about us and, and that's what's gonna bring us closer together and ultimately patch up some of those toxic behaviors and, and level up our culture as a team. culture can be pretty intangible. it's sometimes hard to observe, and it's hard to measure. But I'm wondering, is there any, any ways you've come across that leaders can use to measure and assess team culture? Nadine?
Nadine Dubina:Yeah. So yeah, I'm not gonna lie. We struggle with this as well, right? Because it doesn't necessarily show up on a Likert scale, right? Like, you can't really equate culture to, "this as a five". So, so yes, it is hard. But with that being said, you can observe behaviors, right? And so it's not necessarily that it has to be in this data driven driven piece, but the measurement can now come from the conversations you're having around what you're seeing. Right. So it looks a little bit different. And I will say that we don't, we don't have the answer to this, we're working towards trying to figure this out. We have created some different almost like zones. So not going, you have to reach a five, right, but like, here is the zone, and you can hit right here in the zone, you can hit it hit up here, you know, but as long as you're in this zone, this is this is pretty good. Let's look for like upper lower limits, right be in the middle of those. And so we have kind of started to look at things from a, a perspective of not necessarily novice to expert, because I think that sometimes can get misconstrued of that we put expert coaches is being at the highest level. But just because you coach in a professional league doesn't mean that it could be your first year in the professional league, right? And then you would be a beginning coach, right? And that professional league, and so it's really looking at, are you new to this type of learning? Are you new to this topic? Are you new to practicing this skill? And how can we get you from essentially never, never working on this never knowing that this is something that you want to do to a level where you are you you're using, it's just become ingrained into what you do. But again, there's different targets for each of those steps to get to. So it's not, you hit it and you're not or you're a good coach, or you're not, it's, there's 20 different things that we're going to work on. And you're going to constantly move back and forth, just like our athletes do. Whenever they learn new skills, right? They become competent, and some of the skills that they learned when they were younger. And then they start over again, when they learn a new, a new harder skill, they become a novice learner again. And so we try to look at coaching. And these changes in culture as a as a moving fluctuating system and instead of a euro 345. But it's going to move back and forth, especially with with every team every year, if you get a new player, it's a new team. Right? And so it's...yeah, it's it's not exactly a fair evaluation to go, we're going to compare you to how it was 10 years ago, because it's just, it's not that doesn't exist anymore.
Zoran Stojkovic:You'd say culture is pretty fluid. It's not stable.
Nadine Dubina:Yeah.
Zoran Stojkovic:What would some of those zones be? What are examples of that?
Nadine Dubina:Yeah, so we really take a learning approach to it. So it's really kind of a, you, this is the first time you're working with us. This is the first time that you have maybe heard about these. Let's say we honestly work a lot in the training environment, because that's where coaches have most control is in their practices and trainings. And so it might be okay, how are we working on these three skills and in your training environment, and the coach may be let's just break it down easily is like doing a pre...like a pre team meeting to tell them what's going to happen in practice, and then a debrief at the end of it. Right? And so the coach may be like, yep, I tell my my athletes what they do, what what's going to go on and practice at the beginning. But then once practice is over, like it's gone. So they might be at a level two in the in the pre training talk. But they might be at a zero if we want to put in a numbers, you know, at the debrief, because it doesn't happen. Right? So we're going to continue to go Okay, these are the really good things here. How do we shift it so that it's a little bit better? Are there things you want to bring into this? And really, the the goal of us is to go from it being a coach taught piece to a in an athlete responsibility towards the end. So kind of this, this culture of growth of the coach is always going to have a hand in it, right? But it goes from it being about like, we're going to do this because this is how I'm setting the team, to a place where the athletes now have their voice and responsibility and have learned how to take on some of those roles themselves to upstand to uphold the culture, right? Because it's not just the coaches, it's everyone's, but it doesn't happen by just appointing someone to that it has to be a skill that is that is taught and taken through the learning process to where the athletes have accountability and responsibility in it as well. But that doesn't that doesn't always happen in the first stage. Definitely. So...
Zoran Stojkovic:There's those stages and zones and you give coaches feedback on on how what zone they're they're fitting into and then you discuss that and you discuss how to how to level up that, competency, if you will.
Nadine Dubina:Yeah, and honestly, we don't we don't even use the, the zones with the coaches. That's something more for us internally as we are kind of evaluating our own work right and feeding things up and down the chain. We don't think it's very helpful to put coaches, you know, to be like, okay, you're, you're in this zone, like, we're like, okay, here's where we're at. Right? Do we want to keep moving forward? Do you know this is happening? Where what challenges are you meeting, right? Because it's constantly shifting. So. So I would say that, that that's more even for us on the back end, to be able to track progress. That's really what it's about is tracking progress and tracking, learning over having an end of year review, you know, we all we all know what the end of year review process is like. So that's not really where, where we try to set things it's really about meeting that coach, where they're at, and helping them to move in ways that they feel like is most impactful,
Zoran Stojkovic:Ongoing coaching versus the end of year review?
Nadine Dubina:100%
Zoran Stojkovic:More touch points that way.
Nadine Dubina:Yeah. And it shouldn't be it shouldn't be, you know, if we're giving, if we're giving good feedback, it shouldn't be a surprise to them, right? Because you're constantly in that conversation. And it's about again, it's not about one of the things that we have made sure that we have done is we have removed ourselves from any type of decision making when it comes to hiring, firing, or money, like money allocation. So in order to stay away from that, we get to sit in a position where it's truly about like we are here to help you and your team exclusively, on working in the ways that you want to grow rather than it being like, if you don't do this, your job could be up.
Zoran Stojkovic:Wow, that's powerful. Because it removes the power dynamic and, and it makes people feel psychologically safer. It makes it evident that you're there literally to help them. And then you're not a spy for the organization.
Nadine Dubina:Right. Exactly. Which was the number one yeah, it was the number one thing right of like, No, you can't come in here like who are you? Who Why? Who Why are you Why are you going to come in? Who are you going to tell about me? You know, like, yeah, and so yeah, it took it took a little while, right. And I think that the first thing that you can do is you can you can look at low hanging fruit, right, like so yeah, we know that there's bigger issues, potentially. But if you're able to help someone feel a little bit more competent and confident and in their training environments, right, then you start building the trust, earning the trust, showing that you're there for them and to be helpful. And then you start to unlock more of those kind of deeper aspects that might be going on.
Zoran Stojkovic:Yeah, and you're building trust with them. As you go. Nadine, how do you...What does cultivating your culture mean to you?
Nadine Dubina:To me personally?
Zoran Stojkovic:Mhmm.
Nadine Dubina:So honestly, the thing that comes up for me is that cultivating your culture means that you are living, what you are teaching. And by that I mean that you have a coach. I don't think that we're meant to do any of this alone. I don't think that in the world that we exist in this sport world, that is not our model at all. Yet, for some reason, we've gotten to this place where because we're coaches, sometimes we almost have to feel like we have to be perceived as knowing at all. And I don't think that's what cultivates great culture. I think what cultivates great culture is that you show that you're in this, this journey with them and that you're willing to learn, and you're going to be accountable to someone and you're you have lofty, audacious goals that, that you've said to someone that you're working towards, to help your athletes. And so for me, it's really about this connected piece of we give to our athletes. But what are we giving to ourselves? And for me, there's so much power in being mentored or coached in that. And I think that's what helps to cultivate it is that you have cultivated it within yourself and are trying to do the same things that we're trying to help our athletes do, which is essentially learning and performance.
Zoran Stojkovic:Wow. So we're back to what you said in the beginning. It starts with ourselves. So for you cultivating your culture means being coached and being mentored even though your coach, mentor or leader on creating your own your own skill sets.
Nadine Dubina:Yeah, I mean, we're all part of world part of this, this cycle, right? It's it's this cycle that we're all through and I think it's about allowing us to go like I don't want to do this alone, right? Like, and it's it's hard, right? I mean, a lot of us are time-bound. This is become modern conveniences have, I think made us even more busy when it's like, it's supposed to make us less busy. But it doesn't, you know, we just get more and more busy with things and have more and more to complete and tasks to do. But I have just found that having a coach is incredibly impactful, I have plenty of coaches in my life, but I specifically have formal coaches, and, you know, informal mentors. But But yeah, I have found that that process has been so, so helpful because it reconnects you with essentially what the athletes are going through every day, I think it can be really easy as coaches to forget what it's like to be an athlete, right and forget what it's like to be coached. And you can almost buy in more, because you can feel it when you're being coached. And so I just think it helps, kind of with that, it's like fertilizer in a way.
Zoran Stojkovic:Nice. I love that. What's one practical tool leaders can use tomorrow to cultivate the culture of their team?
Nadine Dubina:I would say we already talked about it a bit. But like this, this notion of non judgement is, is really trying to see things as they are not how not how you've seen them happen in the past. So So yeah, I would just say, observation. I don't think that that I would say that one tool, right is, and this is kind of gonna be counterintuitive, it's going to sound like, but I would say do not try anything different over the next week, don't do anything different, except simply start noticing what you're doing. Because we can't start the process of growth, until we know what's actually happening. And a lot of times, we're on default mode autopilot mode, right? We've done these things so many times. So my tool would be, do nothing. Simply notice what's happening, you might notice some things that that weren't there before. And again, being non judgmental, because it's not right or wrong, it just is. And then we can move in different ways. Depending on where you want to go.
Zoran Stojkovic:The power of awareness and observation and personal reflection, not even reflect... You didn't say reflection, you said, observing our own behaviors and our thoughts and becoming aware of what's going on and not changing anything. Is there a book or resource that has helped shape your understanding of culture?
Nadine Dubina:I mean, I again, I will say I'm much more of a podcast listener. Now I consume a lot of books actually, through audio now. But I mean, all of your, all of your classics, you know, your Culture Code by Daniel Coyle, and, you know, the, The Legacy by The All Blacks, you know, I think that those are all kind of ones that people have already heard of. I'm a massive proponent of Bernie Brown's work. So I would say pick up dare to lead. There are plenty of practical tools in there. If you guys have not listened to her. She's also got a great podcast, Dare to Lead on Spotify. So she talks to some of these people. I will put out there that there's a great coaching book, one of my favorite coaching books on practical coaching is by my mentor, Dr. Wade Gilbert's called Coaching Better Every Season. And so he talks about culture in there, but he also goes through the different phases and things that happen at different times of the year. So I think it's helpful to sometimes go, okay, I'm in the offseason, what are some things I should be thinking about? Where's my guide here? And, you know, if it's in-season, where should I be focusing? And so sometimes it's also meeting needs, as you come up with as they're happening, right? It's a What do we say? "Just in time" versus "just in case", right? We do a lot of things just in case when really those things aren't the most impactful, the things that are the most impactful the things that are just in time. So I would say what are where are you? Where are your challenges arising and where where are some some resources that you can look at that would help you in those specific scenarios, because those are what those are, what are going to stick.
Zoran Stojkovic:Some solid suggestions and well, but those in the in the show notes, tell us what you're up to right now and where people can connect with you.
Nadine Dubina:But yeah, so I don't have a massive social media presence, but I do have a LinkedIn so you can always get in touch with me directly. And LinkedIn, we have a Team USA Coaching site. So if you just put Team USA Coaching Department or Coaching into Google, you'll be able to be taken to our site, there's plenty of free resources there on our Quality Coaching Framework and our Athlete Development Model, and things like that, but I would say I am I am most excited about...we are expanding some of our offerings for coaches this upcoming year. So we have a Foundation's course that we we bring our junior national team, national team coaches, pipeline coaches into and now we're going to be offering about five different programs that once you come in the foundation's, you know, have a menu for that "just in time" perspective to to meet coaches where they are. And and yeah, I mean, we we are obviously we have a Summer Games coming up immediately followed by a Winter Game. So I think it's going to be a phenomenal year for sport, even though it's been it's looked massively different. But I want to share right before we leave, I heard this quote the other day, and it's really been sticking with me. And I think that it might be helpful to your readers. So the or your listener, sorry. The quote is,"history is the study of surprises". And it basically the message was, we're living history right now, surprise after surprise after surprise. And that, we have to almost accept that there's going to be no new normal, all there is going to be is a series of not normal things that are going to be unforeseen until they happen. And I personally love this. Because it means that we get to constantly challenge ourselves to learn, right is that every time a new surprise comes up, it's an opportunity to go How can we how can we grow from this? I'm a huge proponent of well being so I think there's two sides of the coin right there is the surprise and and the growth and then there needs to be the rest and rejuvenation, restoration as well. But But yeah, I just I just am fascinated with this. With this, this world of surprise and how we can really use it to help us navigate life rather than be feel feel imprisoned by it.
Zoran Stojkovic:We're definitely going to have some surprises in the next couple of decades coming up and and being ready and being flexible, adaptable, resilient, is going to get us through them. And this this year, it's it's just been another, you know, been another test.
Nadine Dubina:Yeah, and that's what sport is, right? I mean, like, why do we get behind sport because we want to be surprised, right? We are ready for our...like that's, that's what draws us to the game, I think. And it's always that, that capacity for it. So we've we in sport have been training for this our whole lives and it's what we love. So So yeah, I'm excited.
Zoran Stojkovic:I think so too. Nadine, thanks so much for coming on the show. It was it was a great pleasure talking back and forth exchanging ideas and you you shared a lot of practical and powerful insights into into building and cultivating team culture.
Nadine Dubina:Thank you so much, very grateful to be here very grateful for every person who has listened to this. And and yeah, we will we will talk soon.
Zoran Stojkovic:Hey, thanks for tuning in to cultivate your culture, rate and reviewer podcast on iTunes. Any websites and resources mentioned in the podcast as well as the guests information can be found on the show notes at www.kizo.ca/podcast. Here's a sneak peek of what's coming up in our episode next week.
Adam Kreek:Let's design the values which are a bunch of shiny words. Everyone feels really good after the exercise, right? It's done. ]LAUGHTER] Like lots and lots, right? You do the values exercise people are like, "Oh, yes, those are our values. That's what we value. That's how we operate all that feels good." And then you maybe you put her on the wall and then you forget about.