How to Analyze Culture with Bryce Tully | S02E01

Bryce Tully, CEO at Innerlogic shares ways to measure culture, questions you can ask your team to build cohesion, and how implicit learning can level up the systems in your team.

In today's episode, you'll learn:

• Four questions you can ask your team today to build alignment
• Why the system you set up in your team has the biggest impact on culture
• What implicit learning is and how to leverage it to build a better culture
• How to measure and analyze culture

Visit www.kizo.ca/podcast to get extra resources or join our mailing list.

This week we talk with Bryce Tully, CEO at Innerlogic, a software company devoted to helping organizations enhance the measurement and tracking of team culture and emotional health. Bryce is also a sport scientist in the Canadian Sport Centre Atlantic and has been to 2 Olympic games supporting national teams. His work focuses primarily on building high-performance cultures, learning environments, and individual athlete optimization strategies.
Connect with Bryce on Twitter, LinkedIn, or through innerlogic.

Cultivate your Culture is a show that decodes how leaders can create environments where their teams do their best work and flourish. Our guests are pioneers in team dynamics and culture from the worlds of business, military and sport. Hear them share simple, straightforward techniques that you could use with your team to set up, evolve and measure culture. 

The host, Zoran Stojkovic helps people build habits and behaviors that unleash their inner greatness so that they can contribute positively to the world. Through his company, Kizo, he equips organizations and people with culture and mindset tools to reach full engagement through powerful workshops, memorable keynotes, and transformative individual consultations.

Cultivate Your Culture is produced by Kizo, a leadership coaching organization helping teams to get the results they want so that they can positively impact the world. To learn more about the services Kizo can provide for your team, please check out our website at kizo.ca/team. 

Transcript

Zoran Stojkovic: 0:03

Hey, what's going on and welcome to cultivate your culture. This show, this podcast is where we decode how leaders can create environments where their teams do their best work and flourish. Our guests are pioneers in team dynamics and culture from the worlds of business, military and sport. Hear them share simple, straightforward techniques that you could use with your team to set up, evolve and measure culture. With over 92,000 hours spent working, let's focus on the relationships and the results will follow. I'm your host, Zoran Stojkovic. And I help people build habits and behaviors that unleash their inner greatness so that they can contribute positively to the world. Now, let's get into today's episode.

Bryce Tully: 0:51

It comes from us observing the people in the tribe who have already been doing it and leadership happens in the gray. It's why it's so important [LAUGHTER]. If it was black and white, everyone would be doing it and everyone would be great at it right? So.

Zoran Stojkovic: 1:10

That's Bryce Tully, CEO at inner logic, a software company devoted to helping organizations enhance the measurement and tracking of team culture and emotional health. Bryce is also a sports scientist in the Canadian Sports Center Atlantic, and has been to two Olympic Games supporting national teams as a mental performance consultant. His work focuses primarily on building high performance cultures, learning environments, and individual athlete optimization strategies. Today, we're going to hear from Bryce on the four questions, leaders can ask their teams to realign culture, what's at stake if culture is left to develop on its own, and how leaders can measure culture. There's athletes, there's coaches, there's leaders, there's employees that move to a company, maybe they move to a different country. And part of that culture within the team and fitting in is actually fitting within the country that you're living in, isn't it?

Bryce Tully: 2:06

I would say almost all cultures have aspects that are so misunderstood. A couple years ago, I think I've told you this in the past, but Alex Hodgins who we both know, who is one of the best of the best in our field in Canada. I say in Canada, maybe in the world, I don't know, he's been super successful. But he shared this nugget with me. Suggesting that to build a great culture, you have to be able to answer these three questions. And the questions were, were Who are we? Where are we going? And why are we going there? And on the surface, I thought, well, that's that is really good, I can see how I can extend that out into the scrape siltation. And, but I didn't know just how deep it went. And how much there is to really dig into and unpack in those three areas in a big collection of people and especially that question, who are we? Because it's so diverse, right? You want to be you want to find this unifying set of values as a team or as a group. But you can't ask people to give up on or change their personal values in service of that group identity that you're trying to form, that they're not competing. There's people's personal values, and then there's the values that you have as a group in service of a particular mission. And I think that it's never a good thing if when you say who are we, everyone's the same. Because you're just lacking such a huge strength of diversity in terms of the different perspectives ideas, the way that people think and act and feel, you need a lot of different styles to come together to, I think find like that really world class, sort of package of dynamic. So I don't know what the original question was, but I think it has to do with people from different places moving into different cultures.

Zoran Stojkovic: 4:15

Yeah. And it is quite a transition. And it's nice when teams, whatever industry they're in, whether in sport or business or somewhere else have great onboarding processes and also selection processes, so that they can let people in not, as you said, not only people who are the same as everybody else, but there has to be something that's similar enough, but then everybody adds to the culture, especially in smaller teams. Everybody has more of an impact and bigger teams, you have less of an impact in a bigger organization or 100 or 1000 employees. Like, you work with leaders right and you work with them, you coach them on creating, refining and maintaining culture. What do you look for in those first few conversations when you're scoping out an organization or a team?

Bryce Tully: 5:07

[LAUGHTER] Scoping out? [LAUGHTER] Well, I think I just You just reminded me of a really important missing question from the model. Those three questions are great. But I was listening to a CBC special on culture and diversity in Canada, and one of the questions that they posed in that special was essentially, where have we been? So I think, to answer your question, kind of in an odd way to begin with, one of the things that I think people often do wrong when trying to shift grow, change, improve a culture is to not pay that historical due to where this group has been, who got them into this place for good or for bad, what is happening now that is, working and should be upheld moving forward. So you have to really grab on to, and just just like empathize, understand, acknowledge, appreciate sort of the legacy pieces of any group that you're trying to work with or change. I think it's a massive mistake to come in and think, and only be future thinking. And have that kind of perspective of, I know how it should be. You know, I know exactly where we need to go with this. And you end up trying to copy and paste stuff from other cultures into this one. And you have no context of where they've been and what matters to them and what's worked for them. And it might work for them for a specific reason that's distinct to that group. And maybe that might not work somewhere else. But you have to acknowledge and understand that if you're going to be successful and trying to change any any groups dynamic or culture, I think.

Zoran Stojkovic: 7:00

That's big, isn't it? Not copy and pasting things, but actually looking at this team in a very, as a very unique team of Who are they? Where do they want to go? Why do they want to go there? Like you said before. And then where have we been also? So looking at the past, looking at the tradition of the company or the sport, or were there relationships on the team? Because that will all impact culture. Is there, does this team have a history of success? And or is it maybe a history of being the underdog and being on the verge of relegation, or being bought out? If it's a company? And what else would you say? I mean, in those in those first few moments in those, those first hours that you're, are there other things that you're paying attention to, as you're part of this new environment, that you're going to help refine and measure culture in?

Bryce Tully: 7:59

Yeah, I think, like, absolutely, I mean, there's, I think there's some things to look for when you're just simply trying to decipher between, you know, words on a wall, basically, versus a real, living, breathing thing. And I think it, it ultimately boils down to the behaviors of people to the way in which they display and provide those reinforcements and artifacts and anything that's happening on a moment by moment basis that represents a certain value. You know, imagine if you went to the All Blacks culture, and they said, We value responsibility here. It's our number one value, and eight different leaders told you this when you meet with them. And then we all go to lunch. And they all stand up from the table and they leave a bunch of shit behind, they don't clean up. And they expect someone else to clean that up in, you know, in the office lunch or, well, clearly, you don't value responsibility. So you know, that's one of the more famous examples in terms of cultural artifacting is from the All Blacks, you know, they their highest ranking leaders sweep the shed as an example, to represent that value of responsibility because they don't, you know, they say, All Blacks take care of themselves. They don't need anybody taking care of them, or whatever the manager is. And I think when you go into a new space, and you're trying to assess, you know, how can I have a positive influence in this space, you have to really look and scan for those behaviors that maybe are mismatched with what people are telling you. And then you have to put your persuasion hat on or your influence hat on and try and massage, you [LAUGHTER] know, and navigate yourself through it in a way that you can start to nudge people in the right directions and and have them take a little more ownership and build some self awareness around the fact that you're saying one thing and you're living another. So I think those are kind of the the little nuggets that you're you're looking for. The other one is, if people keep passing off culture to everybody else, sometimes you go in and you'll meet with various leaders, coaches, or whoever, athletes, employees, and everyone's got someone else [LAUGHTER] who was the one who's, you know, who isn't being accountable to the culture, right?

Zoran Stojkovic: 10:30

And, and they're failing to look at themselves.

Bryce Tully: 10:33

And they're failing to look at themselves.

Zoran Stojkovic: 10:35

Okay.

Bryce Tully: 10:36

So if you go through 10 interactions that no one's looked at themselves, and how they can contribute. And also if they're, if they're speaking about other people's actions and behaviors from the lens of pure transaction, there's, there's nothing transformational about it, like, my compassion is shut off, my empathy is shut off, my optimism is shut off. I'm I'm literally just just stating to you that this is bullshit. And it's because of x, y, and z, then you've sort of, you've got a different beast now to deal with that maybe they're unaware of as a group, which is there's some learned helplessness in the culture, meaning people think that kind of no matter what happens, it's not going to change. And so you end up in this place where it's like, well, how do we start to build some, some belief and some salt, small wins and fence posting of real actionable stuff that happens as a result of some of this work that we're doing so that people start to believe like, things are actually kind of shifting around here.

Zoran Stojkovic: 11:39

That learned helplessness is that's quite oxic. There are situations wh re somebody may have tried a unch of different things, and t ere just isn't a desire or gre t support from the key decision akers in the team to actually c ange anything. Because learn d helplessness makes it soun as though the person could e doing something, but they're n t. What about those situati ns where the person is try ng to do something, ma be they're not a leader, by ti le, but they're, there's some, they have some sort of influ nce in the organization, they've been on the team, and they've been around for so e time. So they have some clo t, but not as much as maybe the eadership team within the or anization. So what I'm saying is like, it can get challenging w th that, because it's about br nging people on board and rea ly generating buy in. And somet mes people don't actually like having the mirror held up to the[LAUGHTER]. Even though it may e really objective thin s that maybe when you're working with a team, you're sharing really objective things. I'm su e you've had situations whe e you've gotten pushback, even though you're literally obse ving behavior. And it's not O, I think you're thinking thi, it's, you're doing this. o how do you how do you break t rough that?

Bryce Tully: 12:56

[LAUGHTER] the most practical answer to that is you have to build a relationship with some of the key changemakers and influencers in the group in order to have those psychologically safe conversations in which you can bring some awareness to those moments and feel like, you know, you're not going to be pushed back out the door, as a result. So there is, you know, for sure, a trust building process. But I think there's two main things that everyone has to keep in mind. And these are more left brain sort of objective things. One of them is, you have to have a shared sense of urgency for anything to change. And the shared sense of urgency can't be isolated to one person or two people. And then you need to match that shared sense of urgency up against the competitive realities that are sparking the change in the landscape. So something has to be objective and say, well, we're not just changing solely to make everybody feel better. Everyone not feeling better, is causing a performance detriment that we all don't want. So what are the competitive realities that we're faced with here? And once you get through sort of the, the harder facts of some of the the purpose for some of these culture shifts, I think that's when you put yourself in a position to dive more deeply into those softer skills that really sit, you know, as the foundation beneath some of these harder changes that have to occur. It's definitely a challenge if if the people that you're working with aren't able to look at themselves, it's based on trust and relationship, I think to get to that point, and again, the shared sense of urgency and a factual reason as to why that change needs to happen.

Zoran Stojkovic: 14:55

All teams have this culture, not this culture, but I mean, all teams have This thing called culture, whether they notice it or not, these kinds of things can be left unchecked, unnoticed, that organizations may not have systems to audit the culture in a very valid and reliable ways. So what's at stake, if the culture is left to develop on its own?

Bryce Tully: 15:16

I think you you just run a much higher risk of disorder. And disorder is basically where people are misaligned. And they're unaware. So if we go through the stages of culture shift, or culture change, disorder is the worst of the worst. So you picture like four arrows just pointing in completely different directions that are completely different colors. So they're all misaligned. And they don't know that they are. [LAUGHTER] And they don't know why they're. You can get from disorder up to individual which is basically the second tier of this where you're still misaligned. You're not facing all in the same direction. But at least you know, there's individual reasons why. So we're aware in our misalignment, Mike's facing that way I'm facing this way. And here's why. This is kind of like the fancy version of forming, storming, norming performing. The third step is what I would call coordinated. And coordinated is where you kind of take those four arrows, you point them all in the same direction, but they're all lateral to each other. So we're all facing the same way now. So we're aligned, we're aware of what we're aligned about, because we're all facing towards it. But no one's really comfortable being the second arrow, or the Fourth Arrow[LAUGHTER] quite yet. So then you go from coordinated up to collective Excellence, which is we're aligned. We know why we're aligned, we're pointed on the same direction. And we're strategic, meaning we don't all have the same role, weight, importance in every situation. So that's where some of the role clarity has to kind of come into play. And obviously, that's a whole cultural shift in and of itself is, you know, helping people understand their roles. And, you know, become completely driven by the purpose of that role, even if it's not the arrow at the front of the line. Marnie McBean, our Chef de Mission from the Olympics in Tokyo, said a great line on one of the calls that we were on, she said, It's like F1 racing. You don't need to have your hands on the wheel to be responsible for winning. You can be the person putting the wheel on the car in the pitstop, right? You can be the person who unwraps the wheel and hands it to the person who takes it out to the person who puts it on the car [LAUGHTER]. Right. But you don't need to have your hands on the wheel to be responsible for winning. But how do you generate such a strong sense of empowerment and commitment to those people who are the third and fourth arrow and keep them faced in the in the right direction? And not turned back around the other way?

Zoran Stojkovic: 18:02

Can the arrows all be pointed in the same direction? But for it to be in the wrong direction?

Bryce Tully: 18:06

[LAUGHTER] Yes. Absolutely. Yeah, I think that's that's definitely a high risk. It goes back though, to these the these three core questions which we added a fourth to, but the three core ones being? Who are we? Where are we going? Why are we going there? The Where are we going? is, you know, one of those pillars for reason, right? You need Harvard Business Review with would tell you that if you can't perfectly describe your vision of your company in less than five minutes, the odds of you achieving it become much less than those who can. So there's something really powerful in the exercise of being able to say, and paint a picture for people that this is exactly where we need to go.

Zoran Stojkovic: 18:57

So Bryce, if culture is everywhere, and it's it literally all around us, how much of it is unconscious, and how much of it is intentional?

Bryce Tully: 19:08

I think this is a really sort of fundamental belief that people have to take on to create great cultures is there's a bunch of ways I've heard it said. But it's all kind of saying the same thing. I've heard the 70% rule, which basically means that, you know, 70% of people's behaviors are dictated in some way by the environment. I heard Wade Gilbert from California who's amazing worked with women's softball to a bronze medal in Tokyo. Say, you know, people are like water, they just take the shape of what you pour them into. That was one of the more creative ways I've heard this said, you know, I've heard someone else say, just flat out, it's easier to change the environment than it is person. Because the environment helps change the person. And then you don't have to go through every single member of your team or your workforce or whatever. So there was a long long time ago, famous patient who they call patient H.M., I think now we know his name is Henry. And he had a severely damaged hippocampus. And basically, the researchers were getting this patient Henry to perform a motor task that was the tracing of a star. And he had to kind of watch the video of the tracing happen. And it was in, I think, mirrored and so he was, you know, trying to follow every movement of this task and trace the star as closely as he could. And because of the damage to his brain, which we now know, damaged, his explicit system, so his explicit memory, he would show up, and they would explain the task to him. And he would have no idea he's heard of this task before, he would never know that he had done it the day before. And so on day one, he shows up, and this truly is, you know, the first time he learns about and they teach him the task, and he does it and his errors are way up, I think he has like 30 errors and 26 errors, then 20 errors and 19 errors, and he got his 10 times a day. And so he's like, horrible. And then he gets average, basically, on day one, he shows up on day two. And they say, hi, Henry, do you remember this task, and he's No, I've never seen this in my life, we have to restart from scratch. So day two, he starts the task, and he only has toners. And he gets dramatically better quickly, more quickly than before. And so by the end of day two, his error reduction is great. He's gone way down, shows up on day three, has no idea that he's done this task. They explained the whole thing to him again. To him, it's brand new, and he absolutely crushes. So this is a, I think, a really important sort of fundamental story of the difference between implicit and explicit learning. You know, implicit learning is basically learning without awareness, right? So it's passive, it's sensory, it's unconscious, it's all of us as a baby, before our language systems have even processed, starting to do movements that mirror which dives into you know, our mirror neurons a little bit but mirror our parents or whoever is raising us behaviors, to the point where we can move our bodies in certain ways, you know, we know how to do things that no one could possibly have explained to us because we can't talk [LAUGHTER]. We don't know any words. So the explicit system, which is more active, it's conscious, it's deliberate, it's intentional to use your word is really only a small piece of the pie and building awareness and consciousness and being intentional is absolutely critical, for sure. At the same time, though, we have to appreciate that there is so much sensory information being processed by our brain, in the environments that were in that, that teach us certain things, and start to help us understand what matters and what doesn't, and what we value and what we don't, and what's acceptable and what isn't. And it doesn't come from someone just telling us, it comes from us observing the people in the tribe who have already been doing it. And now we understand it as that right, we understand it as something that that you know, really matters in the space. So I just, there's a lot of ways you can kind of take the implicit explicit layer, it's a giant conversation that affects so many different spaces. But I actually think that it really affects culture, right? There's so much of culture is implicitly absorbed and developed.

Zoran Stojkovic: 23:49

Okay, so percentage wise, how much is implicit and how much is explicit? In your view?[LAUGHTER]

Bryce Tully: 23:56

I think I'm fairly confident that 95% of learning is implicit. And you think about all the things the accuracy of reaching for a doorknob, no, You never practice that [LAUGHTER]. There there's a whole lot of implicit learning that that our brain is processing at all times.

Zoran Stojkovic: 24:17

You're saying more, the biggest thing that has the biggest impact is how the leaders set up the system. And that invisible handshake that people take when they come aboard this energy bus, if you will, Phil Zimbardo, Stanford Prison study. He, he often pose the question of and he's the one. So for anyone who doesn't know the Stanford Prison study, they took 24 Healthy college students, and they screened them to make sure they were mentally healthy as well. And they all were all Stanford students. And then for it was supposed to be a two week study. They put 12 of them to randomly be prisoners, 12 of them prison guards. And they had to stop the experiment after four and a half days, because even though these guys knew it was an experiment, and they were like living in this in the basement of the Stanford building, they still got so into it. So it's that question of, is it the rotten apple? Is it the fault of the barrel? Or is it the barrel makers. And the system [LAUGHTER], what I'm hearing from you is, the barrel makers, the people that create the system within an organization are the ones that have the biggest impact. And it's really challenging to be a good apple in a rotten barrel.

Bryce Tully: 25:37

Jason Seeley, a good friend of mine, who he's a consultant, he's great based in Toronto. He says to me all the time, whenever I'm kind of venting to him about like, oh, my gosh, it just should it should happen like this, why don't we just do it this way? You know, we just this is one of our values, yada. He consistently says to me, leadership happens in the gray. It's why it's so important[LAUGHTER]. If it was black and white, everyone would be doing it, and everyone would be great at it. Right? So I think the beauty of what, you know, what you just kind of opened up is this stuff is is great, right? Like this is so far from simple. You know, the culture code would tell you the book, the Culture Code would tell you that, you know, just inserting one bad actor into a team, just pay someone to act bad. Just be toxic to a team completely damages the effectiveness of that team. And they're not even it's not over, you know, they're not doing anything overtly harmful to anyone or the group. They're just being a shitty teammate at different time points, and how it just kind of like poisons people around them and strikes people and pulls them in the wrong direction. So it's a very powerful space, that takes a lot of intentionality to use your your word again, even if that intentionality is an examining the implicit nature of your culture, what do we do around here that teaches the wrong thing? So an example of this would be and this is kind of implicit, you know, what coaches don't maybe don't understand they're doing implicitly is, if you were to ask a group of coaches, if there was a confidence to correction ratio, and it has to equal 100. And you have to, like build out exactly. You know, how much time you want to spend as a coach, making your athletes believe or helping them believe that they can do it, versus correcting the things that they aren't yet great at. And I asked you to give me the ideal ratio three months out three weeks out three days out three hours out from a huge competition. How would you structure that, and almost all of them will say, Oh, well, three months out, I do more correction, less confidence, because it's further away. And then as you get closer, the ratio kind of shifts, as you would expect, right? The feedback from coaches is, by the time we're three days out, I'm you know, piling on the confidence and really slowing down the correction. But then you look at some of the research and you study coach behavior, and you realize that they do the opposite. When pressure is less, they're totally comfortable. spending more time on what's going right. When pressure is high, and stress goes up, three days out from the event. They're correcting every last thing they can find. So they're basically going anything we're not doing well, we got to fix it, fix that. And so you have to ask yourself from a cultural standpoint is what is the athlete? What are the athletes implicitly perceiving from this, right? It's not explicit, but what they're perceiving is, oh, are around here. We've spent a lot of time focusing on mistakes before we play, right? If you've heard them, like, oh, take this person on a recruiting ship, take them out to dinner athlete athlete. What's it like around here? Well, Coach gets pretty stressed, the closer you get to games, you're gonna find a lot of your mistakes. As we get closer, we care a lot about correcting things before we play. The coaches in trying to that's not the culture they want to create. They actually probably want to create the opposite. I want to build a culture of confidence where we believe in ourselves, but their implicit behaviors, teaches a different lessons slowly, gradually, over time, after a couple years in that program, you realize we actually value something else, though, based on this behavior.

Zoran Stojkovic: 29:40

Interesting. So they're saying one thing, but they're doing another thing. So it's that what you talked about at the start of the episode, the misalignment of words, and actions, then Bryce when it comes to things like this, your it seems like you use behavioral observation as a way to measure team cultures. So what tools do you find most potent that leaders can use to measure and assess, measure and analyze team culture, really?

Bryce Tully: 30:08

There's, I kind of see this as the big three, when you're asking the question, Who are we? And you can look at that two ways. One way is as a group, you know, the people start with Oh, who are what's our identity as a team and as a group, and you kind of skip the step of who are we as individuals, now let's use that data, to help build out who we could best be as a group and as a team, because if one of your team identity things is, we're loud, and rah rah all the time, you know, we always vocally cheer and support each other. And you have a bunch of introverts [LAUGHTER]. On your team, you're in a really awkward situation that's probably less than optimal. So I think, from a fundamental standpoint, what you really need to dive into is three things. One is personality. So you can measure personality, you can get a really good reading on who people are. Number two is personal values. All of these things are quantifiable. And number three is emotional intelligence, or at a minimum emotional profile. So are people more wired up to be negatively expressive, positively expressive? Are they more predisposed to feel more joy and enthusiasm? I think those three things are kind of the the really heavy hitters and emotional intelligence, especially because it's at the core of building great culture, great culture, there's no easy way to do it. It comes with difficult conversations, helping people feel comfortable, be open, you know, level with me come through the front door, it'll come through the side, people, a lot of people aren't comfortable with that. So that the EQ piece I think, is critical. And in a culture change, for sure.

Zoran Stojkovic: 31:50

Yeah, that emotional intelligence is big, and knowing what somebody's stress responses, and here's my body language. And here's how I tend to be when I'm under stress, and being able to communicate that, wouldn't it be great to have an operating manual on your colleagues and teammates? Just have a one pager?

Bryce Tully: 32:07

Well, I don't know if we're or when and if we're go ng to talk about inner logic, ur company, but this is the visi n, you know, we talk about visi n. Where are we going? This is ur vision, you just said, like, er build an operating manual or people to make sense of all of this stuff. Give it one h me home base, here's wh re everything lives, all the peo le analytics you need, and not he fluffy stuff, like their, ou know, some fluffy stuff, but ot like the you know, just send ut a poll and get some resul s. This is like, quantify h gh performance teamwork. Right I think it's possible, we st ll have a ways to go, but i's where the world is, I th nk gonna have to go to k ep leveling up, groups, and te ms get shit done. People don t, right, like, that's the way he world now.

Zoran Stojkovic: 33:05

It's nice to have the have the data. And you guys have a super awesome dashboard, and really easy to use, and super user friendly. And I think you guys are all things measurement in the space of culture. And you guys do measure some of this stuff as well, don't you like personality, personal values, emotional profiling.

Bryce Tully: 33:24

We have validated inventories and all of that space. But one of the things that we're doing a little bit differently than then the typical one that you would use is all of it is reactive, dynamic and comparative. So you can look at not just your own profile, but compared to you or compared compared to another person or another group. And the whole profile shifts, because it's not just about here's what your trade is. It's here's how your traits, values etc, actually intertwine and interact with somebody else's. That's the challenge in teamwork, right? When these things come together, what challenges can we expect in this dynamic? So that's the technology that we're trying to build out in our in our team intelligence toolbox.

Zoran Stojkovic: 34:15

And you can imagine the complexity like you're talking about two people are you talking about three or four arrows Imagine having 100 arrows and getting all of those pointing in the same direction. And still having a sense of cohesiveness and unity and having people from different backgrounds having people different genders and different ages there's a lot and there's think having a tool like thi is really useful for organiza ions. So you and where, like, Wh re can people find out more abo t this?

Bryce Tully: 34:47

Innerlogic.com. That's our website? INNERLOGIC.com. Yeah, I love what you just said because this stuff to me is diversity. It's in the bucket. So you know, there's lots of different forms of diversity, but I've seen lots of toxic places because one personality type or another doesn't get, you know, the the compassion and understanding that they need to thrive. So I think you know, different values, different personalities, different emotional, kind of default wiring settings. This is -- we're all human beings, no one wants to show up and, and be some unproductive, toxic aspect of a team that's -- we all want to work well with one another and have belonging in the group, we just need to like, completely overhaul our understanding of diversity and why it's such a competitive advantage, not just the types of diversity I just mentioned, but all forms and put in the work to create that competitive advantage. If diversity is a disadvantage for you, you're generally just lazy. It's harder to work together with different people, different personalities have backgrounds, different values, but the reward and the effectiveness of it can be giant, you get so many different perspectives and ideas. You just got to carve through all the social emotional challenges of being different.

Zoran Stojkovic: 36:08

Bryce, every episode, I'm going to be asking a question from one of the listeners and anybody that wants to get a question answered, can send it on Instagram, through the website or any other way that they can get it to me. And this one comes from Shawn Liebig, who is at wheelchair basketball, Canada. And the question is, what is the difference between building culture and changing culture?

Bryce Tully: 36:36

I'll just give you my layman's view, I can't draw, I don't have any great research or data to draw on. But in from my experience, in my perspective, I would say, if you're building culture, from sort of the ground up, you have the privilege and the advantage of having people start from a place of less bias, you know, their world is not colored by the past of things that have harmed them or gone wrong or led to, you know, bad results or made them feel a particular way, you're starting from a fresher standpoint than that, when you're changing culture, you're dealing with a whole lot of bias, a whole lot of trauma, in some cases, a whole lot of division and that's a very different process than sort of having a bit of a clean slate. And I don't think a clean slate really exists, but a cleaner slate than going from, you know, a state of disarray to sense of urgency to, you know, a change effort. It is a different mission, I think.

Zoran Stojkovic: 37:42

But in a way teams do go through these cycles as well, don't they? I mean, where you're building and then you're acting on it and you're measuring and you're building and you're changing and you're measuring, it is a cycle, isn't it?

Bryce Tully: 37:55

It's far more ongoing, than I think anybody realizes the amount of things that happened in a single day, in terms of how a culture shifts, that moment in a meeting, or someone's psychological safety gets blown up. And it might take them weeks to recover from that if it's not handled appropriately. Or that moment, you know, on the flip side, where someone has never felt so part of it, and capturing what was it that made you feel so a part of it? And how do we leverage that and do that more for people in this group who may have been feeling where you were before to where you are now. So I think there's stuff happening. I mean, you said it best culture is everywhere. It's in every hat, it's in every conversation, it's an it's an every meeting, it's an every walk to the car, it's an every lunch, it's it's everywhere, right? Where we're putting on display, how committed we are to the to the values that we have as a group, and how unified we are in that and willing to do things in service of them. So it's a big task, which your podcast is probably centered around it.

Zoran Stojkovic: 39:02

It is and there's a lot of work to be done as well. Bryce, if anybody wants to ask you any other questions or connect with you, what's the best place to do that?

Bryce Tully: 39:11

Probably just inbox me on Twitter. Yeah, just look up. Bryce Tully, BRYCE TULLY.

Zoran Stojkovic: 39:17

I'll put that in the show notes as well. And any parting thoughts for anybody listening?

Bryce Tully: 39:22

Grind it out, cultures an infinite game? You know, when culture it never stops, just keep going. Every every bad, quote unquote, bad moment of culture is the next thing you got to reframe and translate into into something positive and opportunistic. Everything has value in the space. Just keep going. It's like Simon Sinek says it's a it's an infinite game.

Zoran Stojkovic: 39:48

I learned a lot in the conversation with Bryce. But if there's one thing I want you to take away it's this implicit learning which is learning information without being aware that you've learned it is important because the way that you set up the system and the people you let into the culture are going to have the biggest influence on everybody else, and that's going to impact the overall culture in your team. Join us next time for a conversation with Teresa Ito from Blue Mountain solutions as we deep dive into how to cultivate powerful relationships so that the results follow. Hey, thanks for listening to cultivate your culture. I hope you enjoyed our deep dive into how to level up the relationships and environment to cultivate your team's culture. If you enjoyed this episode, share it with someone in your life, leave a rating and subscribe, visit kizo.ca/podcast to get extra resources and join our email list. A huge shoutout to Teriyaki from earbuds for producing the music for this show and to Kate Leavitt and Silvio Canale-Parola for helping produce and promote the show. Cultivate Your Culture is produced by Kizo, a leadership coaching organization helping teams to get the results they want so that they can positively impact the world. To learn more about the services Kizo can provide for your team, please checkout our website at kizo.ca/team. See you again next week.