How to Harness Equity in your Team with Rita Sever | S02E03

Rita Sever, founder of Supervision Matters talks about how to harness equity (not equality), what hidden rules are and how to change the toxic ones, and how to hire people who promote equity.

In today's episode, you'll learn:

• How to harness equity in your team and organization
• Why teams need equity, and not equality
• What hidden rules are and how to change the toxic ones
• How to tailor recruiting practices to hire people who promote equity

Visit www.kizo.ca/podcast to get extra resources or join our mailing list.

Our guest is Rita Sever, founder of Supervision Matters, a company that coaches organizations on how to improve culture, supervision and HR. With an MA in Organizational Psychology, Rita has taught at University of San Francisco and Sonoma State University in California. Her new book, Leading for Justice: Supervision, HR and Culture, is a practical look at how we build justice organizations that are connected, efficient, and resilient.

Connect with Rita on Twitter, LinkedIn, or through Supervision Matters. Her book can be bought on Amazon.

Cultivate your Culture is a show that decodes how leaders can create environments where their teams do their best work and flourish. Our guests are pioneers in team dynamics and culture from the worlds of business, military and sport. Hear them share simple, straightforward techniques that you could use with your team to set up, evolve and measure culture.

The host, Zoran Stojkovic helps people build habits and behaviors that unleash their inner greatness so that they can contribute positively to the world. Through his company, Kizo, he equips organizations and people with culture and mindset tools to reach full engagement through powerful workshops, memorable keynotes, and transformative individual consultations.

Cultivate Your Culture is produced by Kizo, a leadership coaching organization helping teams to get the results they want so that they can positively impact the world. To learn more about the services Kizo can provide for your team, please check out our website at kizo.ca/team. 

Transcript

Zoran Stojkovic: 0:03

Hey, what's going on and welcome to cultivate your culture. This show, this podcast is where we decode how leaders can create environments where their teams do their best work and flourish. Our guests are pioneers in team dynamics and culture from the worlds of business, military and sport. Hear them shares simple, straightforward techniques that you could use with your team to set up, evolve and measure culture. With over 92,000 hours spent working. Let's focus on the relationships and the results will follow. I'm your host, Zoran Stojkovic edge, and I help people build habits and behaviors that unleash their inner greatness so that they can contribute positively to the world. Now, let's get into today's episode.

Rita Sever: 0:51

Are there people who are shut out of the most important meetings? Are there people who are eating lunch alone, you know, just pay attention just start with

Zoran Stojkovic: 1:02

that's Rita Seaver, founder of supervision matters. She coaches organizations on how to improve culture supervision, and HR which boosts effectiveness. With an MA in Organizational Psychology, Rita is taught at the University of San Francisco and Sonoma State University in California. Her new book leading for justice supervision, HR and culture is a practical look at how we build justice organizations that are connected, efficient and resilient. Today, we're going to hear from Rita on how you can harness equity in your team and organization, what hidden rules are and how to break down the toxic ones, and how to tailor recruiting practices to hire people who behave in ways that promote equity. Something I noticed in this episode is how important objective observation is. And that's something everyone can do. Paying attention to what colleagues are saying how they're behaving, and the quality of relationships allows awareness to build. That's step one, in making any change to culture. And that's why I'm so excited for you guys to hear from Rita. And that's coming up next. How do you define equity?

Rita Sever: 2:07

So equity is about fairness, it's about giving people what they need to feel included, and to feel like they're being treated well. It's different than equality, equality may look this, it does look the same. That's the definition of equality is you're treating people the same. But people don't need the same things. There are historical tests, for example, that were the same people were treated the same in terms of you have to pass this test to get a job. But then it was determined that there was an impact that affected different groups of people differently. And so that's the difference between equality and equity, equity, make sure there is a way forward for everyone.

Zoran Stojkovic: 2:57

What I'm hearing is there is a difference. Equality isn't like we don't actually want true equality, we want equity is what I'm hearing,

Rita Sever: 3:07

right? And quality is a step on the way to equity, because equality is acknowledging there's a problem, and we want to fix it. But then we need to go be on that to ask what people actually need. How do we give people the same opportunity?

Zoran Stojkovic: 3:25

And presumably both equality and equity impact culture? And in your book, you talk about hidden rules, right? So can you give us a few examples of how hidden rules impact culture,

Rita Sever: 3:36

the one I think that is most telling, and it isn't specifically an equity example, but I think it's a powerful one is say, you're a new staff member, and you go to a meeting, and the boss proposes a plan and says, anybody have any questions or want to challenge anything I've said, and you're eager to jump in, and you raise your hand and you say, I'm concerned about ABCD, and E. And then there's total silence. And after the fact, you realize that the hidden rule is that that was a rhetorical question, that the boss did not really want any challenges. So that's the thing with hidden roles. It's something that everybody knows, unless you're new, or you're not part of the in group. Hidden rules mean that you either know them or you're judged by them. And so that's one example. A insidious one and a tricky one in terms of equity, is what kind of small talk is allowed. Nobody has rules about what you can talk about. And yeah, I suppose you know, the way it plays out the hidden rule is that straight people can talk about their family and their partners. But if a gay person talks about their partner and when They did or their wedding plans. There's, again, silence for people leave the room. I went to one company once where it was very clear, there was a lot of employees who were middle aged women. And they talked very freely about their hormones and menopause. And, you know, it wasn't, everybody wasn't comfortable, but it was accepted. And then at one point, a trans man joined the group, and he started joining in talking about his hormones. And that was not okay. So that that's the way that input packs culture is at its most people, people get the message through these hidden rules, whether they are truly welcome. Or they're just sort of there to get their numbers up. And in terms of performance, in that first example, that person who jumped in, is going to be very hesitant to be involved in the future. And it's going to impact there's certainly not going to be a lot of innovation in that company. When the question is rhetorical. How could we do this differently?

Zoran Stojkovic: 6:11

Interesting. So these hidden, I've heard this explained in different ways, but I love your language, because it's so palpable, it's so simple hidden rules. I've heard about the invisible handshake. So we do this invisible handshake. And that's what you agreed to. And it really sounds like social norms. Right? Exactly. And these these group norms that are part of, maybe they're not the writing on the wall, but you will learn it as you go. Maybe there's a specific word that that is okay, or isn't okay. Or maybe there's, yeah, that that's kind of what I'm thinking of one thing that really caught my attention was your phrase of get their numbers up? Can you explain what you mean by that, and why that's significant for equity and culture.

Rita Sever: 7:00

Some organizations want to want to be diverse, or at least want to look diverse. And so they will hire people who look different, who aren't white, who aren't straight, whatever, who are immigrants, they may include people, but they don't really welcome them, they get their numbers up. So they can say, Yes, we have a diverse staff. But they don't change the way they do anything. So the predominant dominant culture, those hidden rules are still very much in force. And actively, although suddenly exclude people,

Zoran Stojkovic: 7:41

you're saying that's worse, it's worse to hire somebody just because they're different. If you're not actually embedding them, within the culture and letting who they are, whatever that means, however, they're, they're different and unique impact the culture of the organization,

Rita Sever: 7:58

right? Because you are not setting them up for success. Because how can you be successful if you're not truly included, if you're not in the meetings that matter if you don't get to go to the happy hours, all that kind of thing, where often, you know, relationships are built, and sometimes decisions are made. So it is a way that companies sometimes go through the motion, but don't really change to be what they purport they want to be.

Zoran Stojkovic: 8:30

That work outside of work, those work conversation outside of work, you're saying that's where some of the key decisions are made. And true equity would mean inviting everybody,

Rita Sever: 8:41

and not just inviting, but they feel welcome. They feel they want to go, they feel so much a part of the group that yeah, they want to go hang out. And not just because they they better not say now,

Zoran Stojkovic: 8:55

what I've experienced, and in my work in organizations, on culture, and some of the teams that I've been a part of, sometimes these silos start to pop up. Sometimes the silos are actually cultural. So people from, you know, people from the same tribe stick together, which makes sense. So is there anything that can be done to connect those bridges between those silos, so that everybody's noses are pointing in the same direction, but people are not losing that individuality. And they still maintain that connection within the group that they feel most welcoming? What can be done?

Rita Sever: 9:38

The first thing is, of course, as you said, pointing your nose in the same direction making sure everyone is on the same team in terms of what are we here for? Where are we going, what are our values? How are we going to accomplish this? So that's the first thing not having artificial barriers between the fiscal department and Mark Killing department for example. And the second thing is actively working to break down those those feelings of tribal illness at at work, you may still have your own friends who look like you in your off hours. But at work, you want to build the bridges. So people are connected, that people feel safe voicing their both their personal experience when appropriate, and their ideas and suggestions in terms of work.

Zoran Stojkovic: 10:35

Right. So you're saying it's very important. And I'd argue that diversity as a competitive advantage?

Rita Sever: 10:42

Absolutely. Yeah. When there are more ideas on the table and more ways of doing things, and people can see themselves in your company. And you're walking the talk. So you're in alignment with what you say your values are, people are going to flock to your business.

Zoran Stojkovic: 11:02

Okay, so let me give you a scenario here. So imagine, imagine you're in a team where people believe in and support equality, what actions should a leader take to ensure a behavior shift that cultivates a culture of equality? The leadership, I'm talking about the leaders, leadership group, the key decision makers, what can they do?

Rita Sever: 11:24

I think the first thing first and most important thing they need to do is pay attention to see how the culture is playing out in terms of demographics and inclusion. Are there people who are shut out of the most important meetings? Are there people who are eating lunch alone? You know, just pay attention to start with, look at both what's happening in front of you, and that your policies and practices are you doing them the same way you've done them for years or decades, if so, you need to shake things up. Because what the best practices have been, historically have excluded people. So if you're still hiring in the same way you did 20 years ago, you're probably getting the same kind of people you did. And if you want a diverse staff, you're not going to get it that way. So that paying attention to what's happening around you paying attention to your practices. And most of all, paying attention and listening to the people you do hire, who bring diverse experiences, if they come to you and say I was really uncomfortable when somebody said this in the meeting, don't just brush it off and say, Oh, they didn't mean anything by it. Say what happened? What did what did that feel like? How did it make you feel uncomfortable? And then act on that? If you have ideas of how things need to be different than make it real, not just we should be nicer to each other. But concrete? How do we expect people to act?

Zoran Stojkovic: 13:15

Listening? Okay, so Listening, paying attention doing something about situations that people come to you for? And I mean, I don't think this, I think sometimes people are not huge fans of HR, or the ops team or whatever it is. And they don't trust them, because they think they're sort of like the spies for the CEO or whatever, of the company. So sometimes those conversations happen. It's like the after meeting meeting or in sport, they call it the athlete whispers. And it's like, Well, okay, when the coach is done talking, what are the athletes saying? And so that's where some of those conversations happen. But then those are not always brought to somebody's attention, especially if the system and the trust and the psychological safety within the company, are not set up in a way that those come to fruition. So then, with this, I have a similar question what what actions can non leaders take to ensure a behavior shift that cultivates a culture of equality within an organization, and we're talking about an organization that already believes in so talks about believing in and supports equality? It's on the website,

Rita Sever: 14:22

I think supervisors at any level can have a really big impact on their staff. I'm all about supervision matters is the name of my business. And supervisors have the most direct impact on the day to day experience of their staff. So certainly, they can take direct action. But even if you're a colleague, you can still listen. You can still pay attention. You can speak up when comments are made that are disrespectful. You can tell another colleague that you know that assumption you made about our other Holly was really not fair. And I want to bring us together. So we can all talk about what happened, or I want to bring us together, so we can build a stronger team. So you can still help make those bridges that get people connected and talking to each other.

Zoran Stojkovic: 15:17

That's a good suggestion. I think sometimes that's harder to do, especially, especially with the shift to online. In the past two years or so, I think it's been tough for to see and hear what the after meeting meeting is, and to check in with people organically and to see the body language to see the morale. You know, a lot of these meetings, people's cameras might be off there, you know, it's the communication happens through slack or through Microsoft Teams, or whatever it is, for companies or, or for teams, it might be a group chat. And so I mean, it's, it's just a little bit tricky. trickier to measure that and to Figure Figure out what's, what's not going well, or what's going well, in that setting. Absolutely.

Rita Sever: 16:05

And it has to be a very proactive, initiative to do it, because otherwise, you're not gonna hear what you need to hear. So it building in time for virtual happy hours for virtual conversations, checking people, all of that really makes a difference. And I want to go back and say one more thing about what a leader can do, because in response to what you said, about HR not being trusted, I know that's true. And that is a strong step a leader can take is build an HR department that people trust. And that really serves the purpose of supporting staff not just being the tool for management,

Zoran Stojkovic: 16:49

those changing the title to operations team does that. What does that do? Is that a piece of it?

Rita Sever: 16:56

Sure, that can be because HR does have such a, unfortunately, such a bad reputation. You know, sometimes the titles never like Chief People Officer. I don't know if that changes anything, but finding a way to rebrand HR. So it is on the side of staff, not just a tool of management.

Zoran Stojkovic: 17:19

Yeah. When I think of HR, I just think of Toby from the office.

Rita Sever: 17:26

Anybody?

Zoran Stojkovic: 17:27

Yes? Yes. Yeah, for sure. So you've obviously in the office?

Rita Sever: 17:31

Yes.

Zoran Stojkovic: 17:34

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Rita Sever: 18:34

In some ways he was because he had relationships with everybody in most ways he wasn't. But I think he, he, his heart was in the right place. And he built connections that carried him through a lot of his goofiness and problematic behaviors

Zoran Stojkovic: 18:57

that that show and I I agree with you, I think he was actually think he cared quite a lot. And he did his best. And like when you see when the different managers came in, like when Will Ferrell his character came in and there was Andy Bernard, I think was, yeah, it's like, it's kind of interesting to see. That's really when they realized how awesome Michael was, even though he was kind of weird and quirky and very inappropriate. Like most companies, most companies of today, you'd be gone for some of the things that he did.

Rita Sever: 19:28

Exactly. Thinking of the harassment show.

Zoran Stojkovic: 19:31

Yeah. So would you now when we think about these organizations, right. Great show, by the way, for anybody who hasn't seen the show, it's it's fascinating, super funny. I think it's on Netflix as well. Some of these organizations actually walk their talk, what are some tangible signs or metrics that an organization is walking their talk in terms of x equity and inclusion.

Rita Sever: 20:02

So the most obvious is that they have a very diverse staff. So they look diverse. And they look diverse at every level of the organization, not just new hires, not just line staff, but up and down the organization, and that all staff are engaged. They're connected. You know, if you talk to somebody, and you say, how do you like working here, and they say, it's great, I feel so excited to come to work. Obviously, that's a good sign on any indicator. But it is on equity too, because one of the things we're going for with equity is belonging, that's a key component of an equitable culture, people feel like they belong. And, you know, trans man has the same voice in the organization in terms of presence that your suburban mom has, that every voice is included. Another sign that I actually look for, is do their job announcements have the phrase or equivalent experience. So we would like people to have a BA or masters, but we will accept equivalent experience, because that tells me that they acknowledge that not everyone has an opportunity to get a degree. And not every job requires a degree. So that in itself is an equitable practice, opening the door and saying you still have to be able to do the job. But we won't exclude you just based on this piece of paper.

Zoran Stojkovic: 21:47

Number one, you sing, it's the way that job postings are put out. And so the reason that's important is because that communicates inclusion and equity. I mean, if an organization or a team says, Hey, we're looking for great verbal communication, well, what if somebody is deaf, but they could still do the work really well, that's not very inclusive, that person, I think, in some ways, like when I look at the job landscape and the job postings of today, there's still some ways that we have to go like that that will be one example, depending on the company. The second one you mentioned, is, is around no or equivalent experience,

Rita Sever: 22:27

right. And that doesn't mean that people don't have degrees that only you know, white, straight people have degrees, everybody has degrees. But you are excluding people when you don't include that. So you're welcome every person who might be able to do the job. And then you go from there.

Zoran Stojkovic: 22:48

How do you think I'm thinking about this now, because the interview process isn't like Miss hiring. I've heard this phrase from one of my mentors, Miss hiring is a$5 trillion industry. It's a $5 trillion mistake that you know, in North America kind of thing. So what can organizations do in that interview process? Or in that filtering of the resumes or applications to ensure they're bringing in people who have those values of equity and inclusion? If that if that is if they want to be walking the talk?

Rita Sever: 23:25

Absolutely. That's a great question. And I think it is about looking at where they've worked before. Are those companies that have a good reputation? And it's about including a couple of questions in the interview process about? What have you done to advance equity in your work? How has your commitment to justice influenced your work? You know, if you really have that value, then ask people to tell you what they've done. How do you support diverse teams? What's different in your leadership in terms of diverse teams than non diverse teams? Some of those questions can really be helpful to hear where people are, it's not that there's a right or wrong answer, but you get a sense of have people thought about this.

Zoran Stojkovic: 24:23

I like your question of when in the past, have you done like, tell me a story of what you've done to advance justice or equity or inclusion in your organization? Before we get into our listener question. I have one more question that I'm really interested in and you talk about a lot of concrete steps an organization can take in your in your book leading for justice. What are like what are the top three concrete steps an organization can take to really operate operationalize the value of equity?

Rita Sever: 24:56

Um, so one is looking at demographics. Who do you hire? Who do you promote? How does your compensation play out? That is a very tongue Creek metric to tell you if you are operating an equitable workforce. And if you're not fixing it, making adjustments, and setting a goal to move things forward. The other two steps that I think are really important, besides what I've already mentioned, is being concrete about what you expect in terms of day to day behavior in your workplace. If you are really wanting to build an equitable workforce, what does that look like? You can't just say something well, we won't be racist here. Okay, good goal. But what does that mean? What does it look like? What can people do what people do

Zoran Stojkovic: 25:56

to talk about actionable,

Rita Sever: 25:58

actionable steps like will not tolerate micro aggressive comments here?

Zoran Stojkovic: 26:04

What does that mean? What does micro aggressive comments mean? And training

Rita Sever: 26:08

on that? Because micro aggressive comments or comments that might sound neutral, but they have a stereotype in them or a denigration in them? So tell saying to a black person that, well, you really articulate, that's a my progressive comment, because it is, is built on the assumption that black people don't talk good English. And so that during trainings about that, so people understand about implicit bias, but having concrete actionable guidelines about what's okay and what's not, and then acting on them. That's the third thing, that once you make, get people on the same page about how we're going to act in our culture, then responding when people don't do it, one of the ways to absolutely not walk your talk is to say you are gonna follow these guidelines. And then someone who doesn't follow them is promoted. So like the master, you know, is promoted. Somebody who makes comments about women or, you know, says inappropriate comments, or flirts and doesn't take no for an answer. And instead of being reprimanded, they're promoted, because they're moneymakers, or whatever the situation is. So I think those are three really important things to monitor your demographics, have clear guidelines, and follow up on those guidelines make them real

Zoran Stojkovic: 27:52

interesting, because I mean, so looking at the demographic, you can, that's pretty easy to do, creating these guidelines and following through on them, that one might be a harder change. Whereas the first one, it's really easy to go down the list of employees and oh, here's the demographics, the ages, the this the that the sexual orientations, you're talking about this implicit bias. And I think there's a great tool. It's Harvard, Harvard University. And it's a test you can take online to identify your blind spots and implicit bias, because they say it's not a matter of if you have them, everybody has them. That's just, it's human nature to have them. So identifying them and becoming aware of them, you can actually do something about them. So I always think that's the first step is awareness. Yeah, and

Rita Sever: 28:43

maybe those the two steps of identifying the actions and following through on them, maybe those are secondary steps, because probably the first step would be along the lines of what you're saying, I'm doing training, and then having actual discussions about how those trainings relate to what we do here. So those probably are more preliminary important steps before you start trying to define your culture.

Zoran Stojkovic: 29:14

Just want to relate back to something you said a little bit earlier around belonging, belonging, this is one of those three basic psychological needs DCN. Ryan identified. It was in the 80s was a the ABC the autonomy, so having a freedom to choose and to decide. So it's that I've heard it called differently, but it's that empowered execution. I own this project and I decide how to do it and I get to choose I'm not micromanaged. There's that belongingness or relatedness and it's do I feel a part of this glue group? And for that one, I think the hearing that one that one reminds me a lot of inclusion and equity and in that environment and culture within the group and the team. And then competence. So am I leveling up my skills? Or is this tub way too hard for me? Is it? Is it a good match? I don't know if you've heard of the flow channel, but is it a good match of skill to challenge because if skill is too high and challenge is too low, people get bored. But if challenge is too high, and like if the challenge is way higher than the skills, people get anxious, disengaged, so there's got to be a good and it's not as simple as that. Because sometimes work, it's hard to get a gauge on that. But those three basic psychological needs are huge. And it's, I mean, I think they those guys covered a lot of what leaders need as well.

Rita Sever: 30:49

That's great. Yeah, I hadn't heard about them. I love hearing that. Wonderful. And, yeah, the belonging in terms of equity is not just that you are part of it, but that you can be fully yourself and you belong.

Zoran Stojkovic: 31:04

Fully yourself. I love that. So that that authenticity being yourself. And to do that you need, I think it takes some self exploration as well, because I think identity is this thing that we play with our whole lives, isn't it, and it changes when we change jobs. And sometimes, maybe someone's identity is attached to their work. And they pick a different line of work. I know that's been happening a lot more in the past year, since COVID. Companies are and people companies and notice that people started shifting industries and lines of work, which is cool to see as well. So read every episode, I get a question from one of our listeners, this one comes from Carolyn trono, who's the Director of Quality sport at sport for life society. And Carolyn asked, How do you identify where initiatives or specific investments are needed to achieve equity? And who is responsible for that in the organization?

Rita Sever: 32:04

I think you identify where to invest and what you need to do, by listening to your staff. Do an engagement survey, do an equity survey? have focus groups have interviews? And find out where there are gaps? As I mentioned before, the other thing would be looking at your demographics? Where are you falling behind? And how do you need to proceed. So that will give both of those together would give you foods about where you need to invest? And then who's responsible? Leadership? Absolutely there. I mean, HR, if there is an HR department, they will probably be the ones who enact it. But the without the leadership support and buy in, it's not gonna go anywhere.

Zoran Stojkovic: 33:03

Okay, so engagement surveys, focus groups, so that listening that you've talked about before, and then it's check your demographics. So let me put you in a situation what if the Leadership isn't doing anything about it.

Rita Sever: 33:15

So that's where there needs to be some vocal proponents who are ready to push back and say, Hey, we put this statement on our website, and we're not doing anything about it, we need to either take the statement down and be who we are, or we need to really step up and do some hard work, because the fact that we haven't done anything proves that we need to do something, you know, it's hard to be the person and do that. And it may be somebody external who has to say that, but somebody needs to basically call them on the disconnect.

Zoran Stojkovic: 33:55

So you're saying the corporate NOD is not a good idea? Speaker? Exactly. Great. Wow, Rita, you've shared a lot of different nuggets. And I know a lot of them are come from your book, Leading for justice, supervision, HR and culture. Tell us a little bit about the book.

Rita Sever: 34:14

So the book is, first of all, it's very short segments. So you can read them, like three or four minutes, take in an idea and then go back to work and think about how you could apply it. There's also segments at the end of every section that are basically make it your own is what I call it, discussion questions to help the team talk about how are we doing in this? So overall, those three focuses are woven throughout it, supervision, HR and culture. And it's about practical tools to walk the talk of the equity and inclusion.

Zoran Stojkovic: 34:57

Boom, practical tools. That's what leaders need. They don't need more theory they don't. And then it's about actually applying that in in a way that makes sense within that context. Awesome. So leading for justice, I'm going to put that in the show notes. I'll put a link to where people can buy, buy the book, and where can people connect with you?

Rita Sever: 35:20

I am at supervision matters.com. That's my website. And you can reach me through there. And I am happy to think and talk about this with people. I really think it's one of the critical issues of our time right now.

Zoran Stojkovic: 35:39

It is it is for sure. I'll put the website and all of that in the show notes as well. And it is it is a critical issue for sure. And I think culture and supervision have been done in a specific way for so long. That there needs to be a shift, there needs to be an upgrade, because we're working on this old operating system. And culture and society have changed and are it's great to see that society is asking for more there is active leaders and activists, both within companies and outside causing some of that those shifts, any parting thoughts,

Rita Sever: 36:15

when you take this on, it isn't just about what you do externally, in your organization. It's also about how you show up. So some of the I have a chapter in the book about self awareness. So it's also you've got to be willing to look at how you're replicating the status quo or disrupting the status quo to dance equity.

Zoran Stojkovic: 36:43

I learned a lot from the conversation with Rita. But if there's one thing I want you to take away, it's this every team has hidden rules that govern how people and behave. Those hidden rules are like an invisible handshake that new members must agree to if they want to be part of the group, and belong. Once you're aware of these hidden rules, find a way to question and change the toxic ones that exclude people create silos and lower productivity that will harness equity in your team and build a connected culture. Join us next time for a conversation with Mark Shapiro, CEO and President of the Toronto Blue Jays as we deep dive into how he recruits talented people, how to deal with toxic star performers, and what he has in store for the Blue Jays culture in the next five years. Hey, thanks for listening to cultivate your culture. I hope you enjoyed our deep dive into how to level up the relationships and environment to cultivate your team's culture. If you enjoyed this episode, share it with someone in your life, leave a rating and subscribe. Visit KI zero.ca/podcast to get extra resources and join our email list. A huge shout out to teriyaki from earbuds for producing the music for this show. And to Kate Lovett and Silvio Canalla parola for helping produce and promote the show. Cultivate your culture is produced by Keizo, a leadership coaching organization helping teams to get the results they want so that they can positively impact the world. To learn more about the services Keizer can provide for your team, please check out our website at K zero.ca/team. See you again next week.