{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":87.35,"endTime":89.96,"body":"Hearing this point"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":87.35,"endTime":89.96,"body":"is this is that you know, what's"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":89.96,"endTime":95.44999999999999,"body":"our goal? What's our purpose? I"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":89.96,"endTime":95.44999999999999,"body":"would argue the goal is in the"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":95.47999999999999,"endTime":99.44,"body":"maximising the participation and"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":95.47999999999999,"endTime":99.44,"body":"engagement and feeling and the"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":99.44,"endTime":103.36999999999999,"body":"sense of belonging of a child in"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":99.44,"endTime":103.36999999999999,"body":"the classroom. I belong here,"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":103.52,"endTime":107.0,"body":"and I can participate here and I"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":103.52,"endTime":107.0,"body":"can engage here. I feel safe"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":107.0,"endTime":110.69,"body":"here and I can be me. That is"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":107.0,"endTime":110.69,"body":"something that doesn't get"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":110.69,"endTime":113.03,"body":"helped by a withdrawal"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":110.69,"endTime":113.03,"body":"programme."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":113.17999999999999,"endTime":115.75999999999999,"body":"Welcome to the"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":113.17999999999999,"endTime":115.75999999999999,"body":"school behaviour secrets"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":115.75999999999999,"endTime":119.17999999999999,"body":"podcast. I'm your host, Simon"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":115.75999999999999,"endTime":119.17999999999999,"body":"Currigan. My co host is Emma"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":119.17999999999999,"endTime":122.81,"body":"Shackleton and we're obsessed"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":119.17999999999999,"endTime":122.81,"body":"with helping teachers, school"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":122.81,"endTime":125.72,"body":"leaders, parents, and of course"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":122.81,"endTime":125.72,"body":"students. When classroom"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":125.72,"endTime":128.63,"body":"behaviour gets in the way of"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":125.72,"endTime":128.63,"body":"success. 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Hi, Emma."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":179.39,"endTime":180.29,"body":"Hi, Simon."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":180.33999999999997,"endTime":182.2,"body":"Emma, before we"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":180.33999999999997,"endTime":182.2,"body":"jump in today's interview, I've"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":182.2,"endTime":183.49,"body":"got a quick question for you."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":183.51999999999998,"endTime":185.56,"body":"There can't be"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":183.51999999999998,"endTime":185.56,"body":"anything left to know about me"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":185.56,"endTime":186.16,"body":"can there?"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":186.22,"endTime":188.56,"body":"Oh, there is, I"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":186.22,"endTime":188.56,"body":"want to keep digging. Have you"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":188.56,"endTime":191.56,"body":"ever planned anything that"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":188.56,"endTime":191.56,"body":"didn't work out the way you"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":191.56,"endTime":192.31,"body":"thought it would?"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":192.33999999999997,"endTime":194.58999999999997,"body":"Oh, yeah, there"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":192.33999999999997,"endTime":194.58999999999997,"body":"were probably actually loads of"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":194.58999999999997,"endTime":197.95,"body":"times where this has happened."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":194.58999999999997,"endTime":197.95,"body":"But one example that springs to"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":197.95,"endTime":202.42,"body":"mind is this. A long time ago a"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":197.95,"endTime":202.42,"body":"friend and I planned a surprise"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":202.42,"endTime":206.23,"body":"party for our mutual friend Amy."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":202.42,"endTime":206.23,"body":"Names have been changed to"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":206.23,"endTime":209.07999999999998,"body":"protect the innocent by the way."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":206.23,"endTime":209.07999999999998,"body":"We were quite excited. 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Because when Amy"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":223.84,"endTime":227.62,"body":"arrived at the surprise party,"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":223.84,"endTime":227.62,"body":"she was actually really annoyed"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":227.68,"endTime":231.22,"body":"and she hated that we'd sprung"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":227.68,"endTime":231.22,"body":"the party on her and she hadn't"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":231.22,"endTime":233.47,"body":"known anything about it. So"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":231.22,"endTime":233.47,"body":"there was a bit of a bad"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":233.47,"endTime":236.98,"body":"atmosphere and it was really"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":233.47,"endTime":236.98,"body":"quite an anticlimax and not what"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":236.98,"endTime":240.37,"body":"we'd planned at all. Anyway, why"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":236.98,"endTime":240.37,"body":"did you ask me that question?"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":240.46,"endTime":242.04999999999998,"body":"What's the relevance this week?"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":242.07,"endTime":245.1,"body":"Well this week I"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":242.07,"endTime":245.1,"body":"got to speak to inclusion expert"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":245.13,"endTime":248.43,"body":"Daniel Sobel. On the topic of"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":245.13,"endTime":248.43,"body":"how do we plan pupil"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":248.43,"endTime":251.60999999999999,"body":"interventions in school in a way"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":248.43,"endTime":251.60999999999999,"body":"that does get results? What do"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":251.60999999999999,"endTime":254.73,"body":"we need to do before the"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":251.60999999999999,"endTime":254.73,"body":"intervention to set ourselves up"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":254.73,"endTime":258.15,"body":"for success? How do we pick the"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":254.73,"endTime":258.15,"body":"right intervention? And how do"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":258.15,"endTime":261.18,"body":"we measure progress? So if"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":258.15,"endTime":261.18,"body":"you're a senco, or a school"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":261.18,"endTime":264.29999999999995,"body":"leader, and you have behaviour"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":261.18,"endTime":264.29999999999995,"body":"intervention programmes in"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":264.29999999999995,"endTime":267.29999999999995,"body":"place, or any other form of SEN"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":264.29999999999995,"endTime":267.29999999999995,"body":"intervention for that matter,"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":267.33,"endTime":270.0,"body":"this episode is going to be"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":267.33,"endTime":270.0,"body":"essential listening."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":270.03,"endTime":272.07,"body":"Before we play"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":270.03,"endTime":272.07,"body":"that interview Ive a quick"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":272.07,"endTime":275.64,"body":"favour to ask. Please can you"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":272.07,"endTime":275.64,"body":"share this episode with one or"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":275.64,"endTime":278.49,"body":"two colleagues that you know so"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":275.64,"endTime":278.49,"body":"that the kids in their"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":278.49,"endTime":282.06,"body":"classrooms can get the help that"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":278.49,"endTime":282.06,"body":"they need? All you've got to do"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":282.06,"endTime":286.04999999999995,"body":"is open your podcast app, hit"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":282.06,"endTime":286.04999999999995,"body":"the share button and send a"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":286.04999999999995,"endTime":289.65,"body":"direct link by email messenger"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":286.04999999999995,"endTime":289.65,"body":"or however you like to"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":289.65,"endTime":293.1,"body":"communicate with your friend."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":289.65,"endTime":293.1,"body":"And now here's Simon's interview"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":293.1,"endTime":294.57,"body":"with Daniel Sobel."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":294.96000000000004,"endTime":297.15,"body":"Today, I'd like"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":294.96000000000004,"endTime":297.15,"body":"to welcome Daniel Sobel to the"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":297.15,"endTime":300.69,"body":"podcast. Daniel is the founder"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":297.15,"endTime":300.69,"body":"of Inclusion Expert and is an"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":300.69,"endTime":303.96000000000004,"body":"internationally respected leader"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":300.69,"endTime":303.96000000000004,"body":"in the field of inclusive"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":303.99,"endTime":307.08,"body":"education. He has advised the"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":303.99,"endTime":307.08,"body":"Department for Education and"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":307.08,"endTime":309.63,"body":"governments abroad and is the"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":307.08,"endTime":309.63,"body":"author of several books"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":309.63,"endTime":313.23,"body":"including Narrowing the"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":309.63,"endTime":313.23,"body":"Attainment Gap. His latest book,"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":313.38,"endTime":316.53,"body":"The Inclusive Classroom is"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":313.38,"endTime":316.53,"body":"currently trending at number one"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":316.53,"endTime":319.68,"body":"in Amazon for education. He also"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":316.53,"endTime":319.68,"body":"writes regularly for The"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":319.68,"endTime":323.66999999999996,"body":"Guardian and works with schools"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":319.68,"endTime":323.66999999999996,"body":"across the UK to improve their"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":323.66999999999996,"endTime":326.15999999999997,"body":"inclusive practice. Welcome to"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":323.66999999999996,"endTime":326.15999999999997,"body":"the show, Daniel,"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":326.19,"endTime":327.12,"body":"Thank you for"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":326.19,"endTime":327.12,"body":"having me."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":326.35,"endTime":328.51,"body":"And in this"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":326.35,"endTime":328.51,"body":"episode, we're going to be"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":328.51,"endTime":332.28999999999996,"body":"looking at a different approach"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":328.51,"endTime":332.28999999999996,"body":"to running successful"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":332.28999999999996,"endTime":335.38,"body":"interventions in schools. But"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":332.28999999999996,"endTime":335.38,"body":"before we get to that, I do want"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":335.38,"endTime":337.57,"body":"to say that when I was reading"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":335.38,"endTime":337.57,"body":"your book, Narrowing the"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":337.57,"endTime":340.81,"body":"Attainment Gap, I was nodding"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":337.57,"endTime":340.81,"body":"and nodding all the way through"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":340.81,"endTime":343.15,"body":"because I love the way you"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":340.81,"endTime":343.15,"body":"talked about looking at the"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":343.15,"endTime":346.68999999999994,"body":"individual needs of schools and"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":343.15,"endTime":346.68999999999994,"body":"their specific settings and"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":346.68999999999994,"endTime":349.92999999999995,"body":"students and communities and"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":346.68999999999994,"endTime":349.92999999999995,"body":"building solutions from there"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":350.02,"endTime":353.40999999999997,"body":"rather than trying to drop a"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":350.02,"endTime":353.40999999999997,"body":"cookie cutter solution that may"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":353.40999999999997,"endTime":355.78,"body":"have worked in another school"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":353.40999999999997,"endTime":355.78,"body":"but aren't appropriate for that"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":355.78,"endTime":358.87,"body":"individual school and their"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":355.78,"endTime":358.87,"body":"needs at that time. So I'd like"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":358.87,"endTime":360.78999999999996,"body":"to start with our first"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":358.87,"endTime":360.78999999999996,"body":"question. When schools are"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":360.78999999999996,"endTime":363.85,"body":"presented with an issue often"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":360.78999999999996,"endTime":363.85,"body":"say by Ofsted, maybe on"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":363.85,"endTime":367.68999999999994,"body":"attendance, schools will take"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":363.85,"endTime":367.68999999999994,"body":"that general issue, look at how"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":367.68999999999994,"endTime":371.11,"body":"it's affecting cohorts of kids"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":367.68999999999994,"endTime":371.11,"body":"and then ask what's worked in"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":371.14,"endTime":374.40999999999997,"body":"other schools and then they take"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":371.14,"endTime":374.40999999999997,"body":"that solution and recruit"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":374.43999999999994,"endTime":377.65,"body":"individual pupils into the"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":374.43999999999994,"endTime":377.65,"body":"intervention. And you say this"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":377.65,"endTime":380.79999999999995,"body":"top down approach of starting"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":377.65,"endTime":380.79999999999995,"body":"with the big picture is flawed."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":381.03999999999996,"endTime":382.57000000000005,"body":"Can you explain why?"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":382.35,"endTime":384.24,"body":"Well data is an"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":382.35,"endTime":384.24,"body":"interesting thing and what"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":384.24,"endTime":386.4,"body":"you're hunting for is what"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":384.24,"endTime":386.4,"body":"you'll end up getting. There's"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":386.4,"endTime":389.4,"body":"different ways of using Data and"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":386.4,"endTime":389.4,"body":"Data is a great gift. It's"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":389.4,"endTime":392.15999999999997,"body":"something which we are very good"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":389.4,"endTime":392.15999999999997,"body":"at here in England, we are able"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":392.15999999999997,"endTime":394.91999999999996,"body":"to track and look at all"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":392.15999999999997,"endTime":394.91999999999996,"body":"different types of datasets"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":394.95000000000005,"endTime":398.15999999999997,"body":"across the country in great"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":394.95000000000005,"endTime":398.15999999999997,"body":"detail. And we do it better than"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":398.15999999999997,"endTime":401.49,"body":"most other countries. So"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":398.15999999999997,"endTime":401.49,"body":"nowadays, to be a senior leader"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":401.49,"endTime":404.66999999999996,"body":"in a school, you have to be"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":401.49,"endTime":404.66999999999996,"body":"quite data savvy, that still"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":404.66999999999996,"endTime":407.82000000000005,"body":"isn't necessarily true in a"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":404.66999999999996,"endTime":407.82000000000005,"body":"majority of countries. So we are"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":407.85,"endTime":411.51,"body":"a step ahead. And as a result,"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":407.85,"endTime":411.51,"body":"we're able to identify far off"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":411.53999999999996,"endTime":415.55999999999995,"body":"looking at trends, we can have"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":411.53999999999996,"endTime":415.55999999999995,"body":"an overview picture, and see"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":415.55999999999995,"endTime":418.26,"body":"lots of trends and see how"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":415.55999999999995,"endTime":418.26,"body":"things overlap, and so on and so"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":418.26,"endTime":420.75,"body":"forth. So I can tell you that my"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":418.26,"endTime":420.75,"body":"team and I've worked with about"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":420.75,"endTime":423.80999999999995,"body":"10,000 schools. And in the mix,"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":420.75,"endTime":423.80999999999995,"body":"we can see where there's"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":423.80999999999995,"endTime":426.6,"body":"generally a trend that things"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":423.80999999999995,"endTime":426.6,"body":"we've seen, where you see the"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":426.6,"endTime":429.84000000000003,"body":"most vulnerable and challenging"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":426.6,"endTime":429.84000000000003,"body":"children tend to have an overlap"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":429.84000000000003,"endTime":432.92999999999995,"body":"background between Pupil"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":429.84000000000003,"endTime":432.92999999999995,"body":"Premium, and SEN, and sometimes"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":432.92999999999995,"endTime":436.74,"body":"other things as well, such as"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":432.92999999999995,"endTime":436.74,"body":"child protection, and so on and"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":436.74,"endTime":439.5,"body":"so forth. So then you get"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":436.74,"endTime":439.5,"body":"vulnerable cohorts, which have"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":439.5,"endTime":442.28999999999996,"body":"multiple layered issues."},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":439.5,"endTime":442.28999999999996,"body":"However, that picture isn't"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":442.28999999999996,"endTime":445.79999999999995,"body":"necessarily true in your school,"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":442.28999999999996,"endTime":445.79999999999995,"body":"it could be in your school,"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":445.83000000000004,"endTime":448.26,"body":"there's only a handful of Pupil"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":445.83000000000004,"endTime":448.26,"body":"Premium. And the issues are"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":448.26,"endTime":451.32000000000005,"body":"really to do with something else"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":448.26,"endTime":451.32000000000005,"body":"completely. And actually, this"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":451.32000000000005,"endTime":454.91999999999996,"body":"is where you take very different"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":451.32000000000005,"endTime":454.91999999999996,"body":"viewpoints, and they mean"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":454.91999999999996,"endTime":458.01,"body":"different things. So one is"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":454.91999999999996,"endTime":458.01,"body":"about identifying trends. But"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":458.01,"endTime":460.83000000000004,"body":"that doesn't necessarily mean"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":458.01,"endTime":460.83000000000004,"body":"that you understand what's going"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":460.83000000000004,"endTime":463.5,"body":"on for children. So I'll give"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":460.83000000000004,"endTime":463.5,"body":"you an example, which I have"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":463.5,"endTime":467.54999999999995,"body":"overstated and written about way"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":463.5,"endTime":467.54999999999995,"body":"too much. But there was a boy in"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":467.58000000000004,"endTime":471.27,"body":"Sheffield, who was behind in his"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":467.58000000000004,"endTime":471.27,"body":"maths, actually, when I got to"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":471.27,"endTime":475.08000000000004,"body":"the school, the school asked me"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":471.27,"endTime":475.08000000000004,"body":"to look at the different cohorts"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":475.14,"endTime":477.21000000000004,"body":"and see where the issues are."},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":475.14,"endTime":477.21000000000004,"body":"And you could see there was an"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":477.21000000000004,"endTime":479.78999999999996,"body":"issue in maths. There's a"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":477.21000000000004,"endTime":479.78999999999996,"body":"certain group of boys that were"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":479.78999999999996,"endTime":482.46000000000004,"body":"behind in math, and actually"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":479.78999999999996,"endTime":482.46000000000004,"body":"have to say that's quite across"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":482.46000000000004,"endTime":485.07000000000005,"body":"the country. In that particular"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":482.46000000000004,"endTime":485.07000000000005,"body":"circumstance. When I went and"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":485.07000000000005,"endTime":487.32000000000005,"body":"spoke to the boys, there was a"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":485.07000000000005,"endTime":487.32000000000005,"body":"number of different individual"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":487.32000000000005,"endTime":490.62,"body":"circumstances when I spoke to"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":487.32000000000005,"endTime":490.62,"body":"one particular boy who was late"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":490.62,"endTime":493.40999999999997,"body":"to school every day, and maths"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":490.62,"endTime":493.40999999999997,"body":"was period one. The reason why"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":493.40999999999997,"endTime":495.75,"body":"he was late to school is because"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":493.40999999999997,"endTime":495.75,"body":"he was missing the school bus."},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":495.80999999999995,"endTime":498.6,"body":"The reason why he's missing the"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":495.80999999999995,"endTime":498.6,"body":"school bus is because he had two"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":498.6,"endTime":502.43999999999994,"body":"siblings at home with severe"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":498.6,"endTime":502.43999999999994,"body":"physical and cognitive"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":502.43999999999994,"endTime":506.49,"body":"challenges. And he needed to"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":502.43999999999994,"endTime":506.49,"body":"help single parent mom get those"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":506.54999999999995,"endTime":510.27,"body":"two siblings ready for the"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":506.54999999999995,"endTime":510.27,"body":"school bus. And as a result, he"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":510.27,"endTime":512.67,"body":"missed his own bus. Now just"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":510.27,"endTime":512.67,"body":"anyone who's ever been to"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":512.67,"endTime":515.82,"body":"Sheffield knows it's quite"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":512.67,"endTime":515.82,"body":"hilly. And so you have to sort"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":515.82,"endTime":518.58,"body":"of go down one hill, walk along"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":515.82,"endTime":518.58,"body":"a bit, catch a bus up the next"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":518.58,"endTime":520.74,"body":"hill walk along a bit, and"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":518.58,"endTime":520.74,"body":"eventually he gets to  school,"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":520.92,"endTime":524.37,"body":"rocking up to school, but half"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":520.92,"endTime":524.37,"body":"an hour late. So the two obvious"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":524.37,"endTime":527.46,"body":"reasons why you shouldn't give"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":524.37,"endTime":527.46,"body":"this boy extra maths, which is"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":527.46,"endTime":530.49,"body":"usually the sort of bog standard"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":527.46,"endTime":530.49,"body":"intervention is because taking"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":530.49,"endTime":535.4399999999999,"body":"away break time or lunchtime was"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":530.49,"endTime":535.4399999999999,"body":"really a big no no, for a child"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":535.4399999999999,"endTime":539.01,"body":"who's been adultified like that"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":535.4399999999999,"endTime":539.01,"body":"playing an adult role at home"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":539.01,"endTime":541.8,"body":"like that, really, they were"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":539.01,"endTime":541.8,"body":"equal a young carer, one of the"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":541.8,"endTime":544.17,"body":"sort of key rules for young"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":541.8,"endTime":544.17,"body":"carers is don't take away"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":544.17,"endTime":547.77,"body":"they're very hands on. And also,"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":544.17,"endTime":547.77,"body":"to be honest, he didn't have a"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":547.77,"endTime":550.29,"body":"maths problem, he had to get"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":547.77,"endTime":550.29,"body":"into school problem. Sowhat we"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":550.29,"endTime":552.99,"body":"decided to do was use a bit of"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":550.29,"endTime":552.99,"body":"the pupil premium money to buy"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":552.99,"endTime":555.6899999999999,"body":"him a bike so he can get to"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":552.99,"endTime":555.6899999999999,"body":"school on time. That's an"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":555.6899999999999,"endTime":560.76,"body":"example of the use of hard data"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":555.6899999999999,"endTime":560.76,"body":"to identify issues and soft data"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":560.76,"endTime":563.46,"body":"to understand the issue and to"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":560.76,"endTime":563.46,"body":"address the issue."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":563.51,"endTime":565.79,"body":"Could you unpack"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":563.51,"endTime":565.79,"body":"a little bit there, then what is"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":565.79,"endTime":568.43,"body":"the difference for our listeners"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":565.79,"endTime":568.43,"body":"that haven't come across these"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":568.43,"endTime":570.89,"body":"terms before? What's the"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":568.43,"endTime":570.89,"body":"difference between hard data and"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":570.89,"endTime":573.26,"body":"soft data? And how do we use"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":570.89,"endTime":573.26,"body":"them differently?"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":573.34,"endTime":575.98,"body":"Well, officially,"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":573.34,"endTime":575.98,"body":"the hard data is the data that"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":575.98,"endTime":579.64,"body":"we use for attainment and"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":575.98,"endTime":579.64,"body":"progress. So effectively grades,"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":579.76,"endTime":583.12,"body":"right, then the soft data would"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":579.76,"endTime":583.12,"body":"be the stuff that is the reason"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":583.12,"endTime":586.72,"body":"behind those grades. So if I"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":583.12,"endTime":586.72,"body":"give a parallel case, which is"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":586.72,"endTime":590.59,"body":"exactly the same story, but in"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":586.72,"endTime":590.59,"body":"this time in Blackpool, and it's"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":590.59,"endTime":593.38,"body":"relevant to say the story,"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":590.59,"endTime":593.38,"body":"you'll see the issue of this"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":593.38,"endTime":596.02,"body":"particular group of boys when I"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":593.38,"endTime":596.02,"body":"went and spoke to them, and I"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":596.02,"endTime":600.28,"body":"realised actually, they have a"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":596.02,"endTime":600.28,"body":"genuine hatred of maths, which"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":600.28,"endTime":602.35,"body":"is sort of based on their sort"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":600.28,"endTime":602.35,"body":"of fear of maths and I can"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":602.35,"endTime":605.5600000000001,"body":"relate I took me three times to"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":602.35,"endTime":605.5600000000001,"body":"pass GCSE maths get a basic"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":605.5600000000001,"endTime":609.7900000000001,"body":"pass, and I failed my schooling"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":605.5600000000001,"endTime":609.7900000000001,"body":"experience in general and didnt"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":609.7900000000001,"endTime":613.03,"body":"come up with any A levels, so I"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":609.7900000000001,"endTime":613.03,"body":"can kind of relate to it. But"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":613.03,"endTime":616.0600000000001,"body":"actually, when I spoke to the"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":613.03,"endTime":616.0600000000001,"body":"boys, I realised there isn't one"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":616.0600000000001,"endTime":619.39,"body":"math intervention programme that"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":616.0600000000001,"endTime":619.39,"body":"you would do that would want to"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":619.39,"endTime":623.26,"body":"ignite an interest in engaging"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":619.39,"endTime":623.26,"body":"more participating more in math,"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":623.47,"endTime":626.65,"body":"they genuinely hated it. So what"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":623.47,"endTime":626.65,"body":"we decided to do was to take the"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":626.65,"endTime":630.4,"body":"boys camping to Lake District,"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":626.65,"endTime":630.4,"body":"and they'd never left inner city"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":630.4,"endTime":633.01,"body":"Blackpool. They'd never been"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":630.4,"endTime":633.01,"body":"camping, and who was it that"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":633.01,"endTime":636.0400000000001,"body":"took them? well it was the maths"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":633.01,"endTime":636.0400000000001,"body":"teachers, meaning the idea was"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":636.0400000000001,"endTime":639.34,"body":"to repair the relationship, or"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":636.0400000000001,"endTime":639.34,"body":"to build relationship between"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":639.34,"endTime":642.46,"body":"math teachers and the children"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":639.34,"endTime":642.46,"body":"and in so doing, allow maths"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":642.46,"endTime":646.36,"body":"then to happen. That was the"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":642.46,"endTime":646.36,"body":"real barrier. So what I'm saying"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":646.36,"endTime":649.4200000000001,"body":"is that the hard data indicates"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":646.36,"endTime":649.4200000000001,"body":"where the problem is. But it"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":649.4200000000001,"endTime":651.52,"body":"doesn't actually tell you what"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":649.4200000000001,"endTime":651.52,"body":"the barrier is, what it's what"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":651.52,"endTime":654.61,"body":"it's made up of. So it's a bit"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":651.52,"endTime":654.61,"body":"like you can see on a map that"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":654.61,"endTime":656.98,"body":"there's a barrier there. But you"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":654.61,"endTime":656.98,"body":"don't know what the barriers"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":656.98,"endTime":659.2900000000001,"body":"made off. And only when you know"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":656.98,"endTime":659.2900000000001,"body":"what the barriers made of can"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":659.2900000000001,"endTime":661.0600000000001,"body":"you actually work out how to get"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":659.2900000000001,"endTime":661.0600000000001,"body":"through."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":661.12,"endTime":663.52,"body":"So it sounds"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":661.12,"endTime":663.52,"body":"like the soft data helps us get"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":663.52,"endTime":666.34,"body":"it the why and the hard data"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":663.52,"endTime":666.34,"body":"identifies that there is a"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":666.34,"endTime":669.64,"body":"problem or there is an issue."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":666.34,"endTime":669.64,"body":"But we need to dig into the"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":669.64,"endTime":673.51,"body":"underlying Whys before we can"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":669.64,"endTime":673.51,"body":"get a successful intervention in"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":673.51,"endTime":673.96,"body":"place"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":674.01,"endTime":675.5400000000001,"body":"When I wrote my"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":674.01,"endTime":675.5400000000001,"body":"first book about Narrowing the"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":675.5400000000001,"endTime":678.96,"body":"Attainment Gap, but really in my"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":675.5400000000001,"endTime":678.96,"body":"head. This was more of a"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":678.99,"endTime":683.61,"body":"treatise on how to harness soft"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":678.99,"endTime":683.61,"body":"data, because this kind of thing"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":683.61,"endTime":687.0,"body":"that almost like fetish for hard"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":683.61,"endTime":687.0,"body":"data kind of gets lost in the"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":687.0,"endTime":689.97,"body":"mix. But anyone who's involved"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":687.0,"endTime":689.97,"body":"in SEMH, social, emotional,"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":689.97,"endTime":692.97,"body":"mental health stuff knows this."},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":689.97,"endTime":692.97,"body":"According to the hard data"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":692.97,"endTime":695.01,"body":"they're doing, they're"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":692.97,"endTime":695.01,"body":"performing particularly badly"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":695.01,"endTime":698.5500000000001,"body":"and X number of lessons. But you"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":695.01,"endTime":698.5500000000001,"body":"know, in some ways in these sort"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":698.5500000000001,"endTime":700.8000000000001,"body":"of micro ways, they're doing"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":698.5500000000001,"endTime":700.8000000000001,"body":"really well. They're putting in"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":700.8000000000001,"endTime":703.59,"body":"a lot of effort, and you think"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":700.8000000000001,"endTime":703.59,"body":"they've grown hugely, and you"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":703.59,"endTime":706.41,"body":"see it in things like"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":703.59,"endTime":706.41,"body":"engagement, participation, but"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":706.41,"endTime":708.8100000000001,"body":"that just doesn't necessarily"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":706.41,"endTime":708.8100000000001,"body":"really show up in the hard data."},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":708.84,"endTime":712.02,"body":"There are so many, many, many"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":708.84,"endTime":712.02,"body":"anomalies. The head teacher that"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":712.02,"endTime":715.26,"body":"said to me, there was a girl"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":712.02,"endTime":715.26,"body":"that had come into the school in"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":715.26,"endTime":720.09,"body":"year seven, her mother committed"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":715.26,"endTime":720.09,"body":"suicide, and the girl derailed,"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":720.27,"endTime":723.66,"body":"right, her expected grades, were"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":720.27,"endTime":723.66,"body":"going to be in the top bracket,"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":723.66,"endTime":727.89,"body":"so A's B's maybe. And what ended"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":723.66,"endTime":727.89,"body":"up happening is, in the end, she"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":727.89,"endTime":731.97,"body":"ended up getting C's, like five"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":727.89,"endTime":731.97,"body":"basic passes in GCSE in the old"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":731.97,"endTime":735.1800000000001,"body":"currency, right. And he made the"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":731.97,"endTime":735.1800000000001,"body":"point that, you know, according"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":735.1800000000001,"endTime":738.69,"body":"to the Ofsted view, they'd"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":735.1800000000001,"endTime":738.69,"body":"failed this girl. When actually"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":738.69,"endTime":741.84,"body":"in reality, what they've done is"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":738.69,"endTime":741.84,"body":"they put in such a huge amount"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":741.87,"endTime":746.07,"body":"of counselling and support and"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":741.87,"endTime":746.07,"body":"coaching and help and home"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":746.07,"endTime":749.52,"body":"visits and home support, and you"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":746.07,"endTime":749.52,"body":"name it, they literally saved"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":749.52,"endTime":752.34,"body":"this girl from completely"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":749.52,"endTime":752.34,"body":"derailing. And the fact that she"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":752.34,"endTime":755.94,"body":"got five passes was really"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":752.34,"endTime":755.94,"body":"amazing. There's an example of"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":755.94,"endTime":758.7900000000001,"body":"contradiction between the soft"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":755.94,"endTime":758.7900000000001,"body":"data and hard date, the hard"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":758.7900000000001,"endTime":762.72,"body":"data very often, it can be very"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":758.7900000000001,"endTime":762.72,"body":"useful. And I'm not in any way"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":762.72,"endTime":766.47,"body":"advocating against hard data,"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":762.72,"endTime":766.47,"body":"I'm merely saying it's only part"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":766.47,"endTime":767.01,"body":"of the picture."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":767.07,"endTime":769.0500000000001,"body":"And that soft"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":767.07,"endTime":769.0500000000001,"body":"data of the individual children"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":769.0500000000001,"endTime":772.9200000000001,"body":"and the individual stories can"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":769.0500000000001,"endTime":772.9200000000001,"body":"get lost in numbers. And when we"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":772.9200000000001,"endTime":775.32,"body":"dig into the soft data we're"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":772.9200000000001,"endTime":775.32,"body":"finding about the children and"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":775.32,"endTime":777.8100000000001,"body":"their stories and their real"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":775.32,"endTime":777.8100000000001,"body":"barriers to learning. I'd like"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":777.8100000000001,"endTime":779.82,"body":"to share a quote from your book,"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":777.8100000000001,"endTime":779.82,"body":"actually, while we're talking"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":779.82,"endTime":782.73,"body":"about looking at data and"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":779.82,"endTime":782.73,"body":"starting to put together"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":782.73,"endTime":784.9200000000001,"body":"interventions, there's a quote"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":782.73,"endTime":784.9200000000001,"body":"in your book, Narrowing the"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":784.9200000000001,"endTime":787.5,"body":"Attainment Gap about"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":784.9200000000001,"endTime":787.5,"body":"interventions, and you say that"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":787.5,"endTime":791.22,"body":"one size fits all interventions"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":787.5,"endTime":791.22,"body":"and interventions that take the"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":791.22,"endTime":794.61,"body":"child out of the classroom for"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":791.22,"endTime":794.61,"body":"extended periods of time, can"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":794.61,"endTime":797.82,"body":"end up doing more harm than"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":794.61,"endTime":797.82,"body":"good. Can you tell us a little"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":797.82,"endTime":800.91,"body":"bit about those thoughts? Why"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":797.82,"endTime":800.91,"body":"you believe that is? And how"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":800.91,"endTime":803.4300000000001,"body":"should we be thinking about"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":800.91,"endTime":803.4300000000001,"body":"interventions if we want them to"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":803.4300000000001,"endTime":804.4200000000001,"body":"be more successful?"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":804.35,"endTime":807.2,"body":"So let me just add"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":804.35,"endTime":807.2,"body":"a little piece to that because"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":807.23,"endTime":809.63,"body":"you know, the danger with"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":807.23,"endTime":809.63,"body":"quoting something that may be"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":809.63,"endTime":813.02,"body":"sort of taken out of context. So"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":809.63,"endTime":813.02,"body":"I will just add something to"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":813.02,"endTime":815.6,"body":"that quote, because I do"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":813.02,"endTime":815.6,"body":"wholeheartedly believe that, but"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":815.6,"endTime":819.11,"body":"only if there is a trend in"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":815.6,"endTime":819.11,"body":"schools, and understandably so"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":819.1700000000001,"endTime":823.49,"body":"this is without any judgement in"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":819.1700000000001,"endTime":823.49,"body":"my heart. And I have been"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":823.52,"endTime":827.6,"body":"involved in it myself, where we"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":823.52,"endTime":827.6,"body":"sometimes reach for off the"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":827.6,"endTime":831.02,"body":"shelf solutions to make up for a"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":827.6,"endTime":831.02,"body":"lack of something. And very"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":831.02,"endTime":833.4200000000001,"body":"often what that lack is, if"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":831.02,"endTime":833.4200000000001,"body":"we're totally and utterly"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":833.4200000000001,"endTime":837.86,"body":"honest, is a lack of, let's say,"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":833.4200000000001,"endTime":837.86,"body":"fully quality, first teaching,"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":837.86,"endTime":841.28,"body":"you know, with teachers who are"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":837.86,"endTime":841.28,"body":"fully capable of being able to"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":841.28,"endTime":844.01,"body":"meet the needs of those children"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":841.28,"endTime":844.01,"body":"in the classroom. So for"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":844.01,"endTime":846.95,"body":"example, behind in reading"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":844.01,"endTime":846.95,"body":"comprehension, but they feel"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":846.95,"endTime":849.83,"body":"like it'd be better if they had"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":846.95,"endTime":849.83,"body":"a booster. And actually, that's"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":849.83,"endTime":852.41,"body":"partly has nothing to do with"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":849.83,"endTime":852.41,"body":"the school or the teachers and"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":852.41,"endTime":855.32,"body":"more to do with the system of"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":852.41,"endTime":855.32,"body":"how we train teachers. I don't"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":855.32,"endTime":858.2,"body":"feel personally that we are"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":855.32,"endTime":858.2,"body":"training teachers to be skilled"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":858.2,"endTime":860.99,"body":"enough, I've just had the"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":858.2,"endTime":860.99,"body":"privilege of writing what's"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":860.99,"endTime":863.15,"body":"called the Global Inclusive"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":860.99,"endTime":863.15,"body":"Teaching Initiative. And I'm"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":863.15,"endTime":865.7900000000001,"body":"doing that with UNESCO when we"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":863.15,"endTime":865.7900000000001,"body":"launched it with 80 countries"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":865.7900000000001,"endTime":868.25,"body":"around the world. And the idea"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":865.7900000000001,"endTime":868.25,"body":"is that you know that it creates"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":868.25,"endTime":871.34,"body":"a basic standard that all"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":868.25,"endTime":871.34,"body":"teachers need in order to be"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":871.34,"endTime":874.37,"body":"able to teach all children. And"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":871.34,"endTime":874.37,"body":"actually most initial teacher"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":874.37,"endTime":877.73,"body":"training providers don't create"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":874.37,"endTime":877.73,"body":"that. They don't give you the"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":877.73,"endTime":880.46,"body":"enough of the skills. And"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":877.73,"endTime":880.46,"body":"actually, you'll find that"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":880.46,"endTime":882.98,"body":"people who focus on social,"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":880.46,"endTime":882.98,"body":"emotional, mental health are"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":882.98,"endTime":886.28,"body":"very often not always but very"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":882.98,"endTime":886.28,"body":"often scooping up problems which"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":886.28,"endTime":889.88,"body":"have emerged in classrooms by"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":886.28,"endTime":889.88,"body":"teachers who are just doing"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":889.88,"endTime":892.52,"body":"their best, but their best isn't"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":889.88,"endTime":892.52,"body":"being supported by the right"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":892.52,"endTime":896.39,"body":"level of training. So I do think"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":892.52,"endTime":896.39,"body":"that there is a trend then to"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":896.39,"endTime":899.39,"body":"sort of reach out to"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":896.39,"endTime":899.39,"body":"interventions to sort of fill"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":899.39,"endTime":903.32,"body":"the gaps. It's also"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":899.39,"endTime":903.32,"body":"unfortunately been made into a"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":903.32,"endTime":905.63,"body":"bit of an industry like I don't"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":903.32,"endTime":905.63,"body":"know, if anyone's ever been to"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":905.63,"endTime":909.8000000000001,"body":"the tests SEN show, which is all"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":905.63,"endTime":909.8000000000001,"body":"very glitzy and very colourful."},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":910.01,"endTime":913.7900000000001,"body":"For me, it's like sensorally, as"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":910.01,"endTime":913.7900000000001,"body":"someone with ADHD its sensory"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":913.7900000000001,"endTime":917.57,"body":"overwhelming. But ironically,"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":913.7900000000001,"endTime":917.57,"body":"and anyone with SEN, it's a bit"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":918.26,"endTime":921.77,"body":"awkward, but the environment is,"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":918.26,"endTime":921.77,"body":"you know, shows you hundreds of"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":921.77,"endTime":925.28,"body":"companies that have stepped in"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":921.77,"endTime":925.28,"body":"to sort of fill the gaps, but"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":925.28,"endTime":929.9,"body":"the gap there has to do with the"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":925.28,"endTime":929.9,"body":"skills gap, but also sometimes"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":929.9,"endTime":932.39,"body":"to do with the emotional"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":929.9,"endTime":932.39,"body":"intelligence gap. So, you know,"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":932.66,"endTime":935.4200000000001,"body":"probably the majority of people"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":932.66,"endTime":935.4200000000001,"body":"who I ended up speaking with,"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":935.4200000000001,"endTime":937.01,"body":"and probably the majority of"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":935.4200000000001,"endTime":937.01,"body":"people who listened to your"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":937.01,"endTime":939.41,"body":"podcast are the kind of people"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":937.01,"endTime":939.41,"body":"who have quite high level of"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":939.41,"endTime":942.5,"body":"emotional intelligence, they"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":939.41,"endTime":942.5,"body":"lean towards social emotion. But"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":942.5,"endTime":946.3100000000001,"body":"you know, we do not vet teachers"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":942.5,"endTime":946.3100000000001,"body":"on an emotional intelligence"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":946.3100000000001,"endTime":949.73,"body":"level. And so you may well have"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":946.3100000000001,"endTime":949.73,"body":"a teacher who is looking at a"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":949.73,"endTime":953.66,"body":"child, and they can see that the"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":949.73,"endTime":953.66,"body":"child is causing distress,"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":953.69,"endTime":955.88,"body":"whereas you and I might look at"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":953.69,"endTime":955.88,"body":"that child and see, well, that"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":955.88,"endTime":960.23,"body":"child is in distress. And the"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":955.88,"endTime":960.23,"body":"determining factor is likely to"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":960.23,"endTime":964.73,"body":"be more about a the skills,"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":960.23,"endTime":964.73,"body":"knowledge, whatever we may have"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":964.73,"endTime":967.91,"body":"developed over time through our"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":964.73,"endTime":967.91,"body":"practice, but also the emotional"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":967.91,"endTime":971.09,"body":"intelligence that we bring to"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":967.91,"endTime":971.09,"body":"the table. And again, this is on"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":971.09,"endTime":974.0,"body":"the one hand accusatory of"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":971.09,"endTime":974.0,"body":"teachers, but it's not a"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":974.0,"endTime":977.66,"body":"default. Our industry hasn't"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":974.0,"endTime":977.66,"body":"made this a unique aspect of"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":977.66,"endTime":980.03,"body":"teaching, social, emotional,"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":977.66,"endTime":980.03,"body":"mental health very much"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":980.0600000000001,"endTime":983.78,"body":"responses tends to be you know,"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":980.0600000000001,"endTime":983.78,"body":"finding easier and quicker"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":983.78,"endTime":986.0600000000001,"body":"responses to stuff which"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":983.78,"endTime":986.0600000000001,"body":"actually basically should have"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":986.0600000000001,"endTime":990.02,"body":"happened in the classroom. So"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":986.0600000000001,"endTime":990.02,"body":"that One type of intervention."},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":990.02,"endTime":992.51,"body":"And there's another type of"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":990.02,"endTime":992.51,"body":"intervention which are really"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":992.51,"endTime":997.22,"body":"supportive of children's"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":992.51,"endTime":997.22,"body":"emotional well being such as"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":997.4,"endTime":1001.09,"body":"counselling, or nurturing, and"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":997.4,"endTime":1001.09,"body":"so on. And I would suggest that"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1001.12,"endTime":1005.02,"body":"as a general mix, we should, if"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1001.12,"endTime":1005.02,"body":"possible maximise the amount of"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1005.02,"endTime":1008.62,"body":"quality first teaching and"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1005.02,"endTime":1008.62,"body":"supporting our teachers minimise"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1008.62,"endTime":1011.2,"body":"the amount of withdrawal from"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1008.62,"endTime":1011.2,"body":"the classrooms, because"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1011.2,"endTime":1014.83,"body":"actually, the magic happens in"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1011.2,"endTime":1014.83,"body":"the classroom. And also at the"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1014.83,"endTime":1018.34,"body":"same time maximise social,"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1014.83,"endTime":1018.34,"body":"emotional mental health support"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1018.37,"endTime":1021.0400000000001,"body":"outside of the classroom where"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1018.37,"endTime":1021.0400000000001,"body":"it's necessary. I have seen"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1021.0400000000001,"endTime":1023.83,"body":"circumstances where social,"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1021.0400000000001,"endTime":1023.83,"body":"emotional, mental health support"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1023.98,"endTime":1028.09,"body":"interventions have become"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1023.98,"endTime":1028.09,"body":"effectively a form of exclusion."},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1028.18,"endTime":1031.33,"body":"At a primary school, I went to"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1028.18,"endTime":1031.33,"body":"visit and they set up this"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1031.33,"endTime":1034.84,"body":"wonderful they were so proud of"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1031.33,"endTime":1034.84,"body":"this wonderful nurture group."},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1035.1399999999999,"endTime":1037.3,"body":"And any children with you come"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1035.1399999999999,"endTime":1037.3,"body":"from a sort of particular"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1037.3,"endTime":1039.79,"body":"challenge background, they go to"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1037.3,"endTime":1039.79,"body":"the nurture group, you know,"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1039.82,"endTime":1044.77,"body":"from 11am, through to 3pm, every"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1039.82,"endTime":1044.77,"body":"day for about four years. Oh, I"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1044.77,"endTime":1049.0,"body":"see. It's like exclusion then."},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1044.77,"endTime":1049.0,"body":"So you know, there are examples"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1049.0,"endTime":1051.55,"body":"of this where it becomes a bit"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1049.0,"endTime":1051.55,"body":"ridiculous. So just to get back"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1051.55,"endTime":1053.83,"body":"to your question. Now, the soft"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1051.55,"endTime":1053.83,"body":"data will tell you what the"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1053.83,"endTime":1056.32,"body":"individual needs meaning"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1053.83,"endTime":1056.32,"body":"basically, your level of"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1056.32,"endTime":1058.69,"body":"knowledge and understanding of"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1056.32,"endTime":1058.69,"body":"the individual will tell you"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1058.69,"endTime":1061.03,"body":"what they really need. And just"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1058.69,"endTime":1061.03,"body":"shoving them under the same"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1061.03,"endTime":1063.52,"body":"umbrella is a bit ludicrous."},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1061.03,"endTime":1063.52,"body":"I'll give you one very practical"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1063.52,"endTime":1065.98,"body":"example of this, which I wrote"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1063.52,"endTime":1065.98,"body":"about in my latest book, you can"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1065.98,"endTime":1068.86,"body":"have three children with autism"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1065.98,"endTime":1068.86,"body":"who all present very different,"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1068.8899999999999,"endTime":1071.35,"body":"you have a child is very quiet"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1068.8899999999999,"endTime":1071.35,"body":"sits in the corner doesn't"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1071.35,"endTime":1073.8999999999999,"body":"really want to speak to him."},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1071.35,"endTime":1073.8999999999999,"body":"And, please forgive my overly"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1073.8999999999999,"endTime":1076.21,"body":"flippant description, I'm just"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1073.8999999999999,"endTime":1076.21,"body":"trying to illustrate a point."},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1076.87,"endTime":1079.1499999999999,"body":"You could have somebody who's"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1076.87,"endTime":1079.1499999999999,"body":"really quite loud, reaching out,"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1079.18,"endTime":1081.46,"body":"slightly inappropriate,"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1079.18,"endTime":1081.46,"body":"constantly in people's faces."},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1081.76,"endTime":1084.1299999999999,"body":"And we can have someone who"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1081.76,"endTime":1084.1299999999999,"body":"appears to be what's quite a"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1084.22,"endTime":1086.83,"body":"neurotypical student, you know,"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1084.22,"endTime":1086.83,"body":"has a sort of much more sort of"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1086.83,"endTime":1089.53,"body":"mild form of Asperger's, but"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1086.83,"endTime":1089.53,"body":"they're all hovering under the"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1089.53,"endTime":1093.25,"body":"label autism, right, autistic,"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1089.53,"endTime":1093.25,"body":"but you know, as a practitioner,"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1093.28,"endTime":1096.28,"body":"that just calling them autistic"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1093.28,"endTime":1096.28,"body":"doesn't in any way articulate"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1096.28,"endTime":1098.44,"body":"who they are, what they're about"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1096.28,"endTime":1098.44,"body":"what they like and what they"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1098.44,"endTime":1101.98,"body":"need. And it's the same with"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1098.44,"endTime":1101.98,"body":"interventions, interventions do"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1101.98,"endTime":1106.42,"body":"not necessarily easily fit into"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1101.98,"endTime":1106.42,"body":"different individuals. And there"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1106.42,"endTime":1110.8,"body":"is a major flaw with the"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1106.42,"endTime":1110.8,"body":"education endowment fund view of"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1110.8,"endTime":1113.83,"body":"interventions. And I'll give you"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1110.8,"endTime":1113.83,"body":"one very specific example which"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1113.83,"endTime":1116.4399999999998,"body":"I had a big argument with"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1113.83,"endTime":1116.4399999999998,"body":"Professor Steve Jones, who"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1116.4699999999998,"endTime":1119.1999999999998,"body":"oversees it now, in the end, we"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1116.4699999999998,"endTime":1119.1999999999998,"body":"became quite pally, and he wrote"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1119.1999999999998,"endTime":1122.26,"body":"an approbation of my book size"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1119.1999999999998,"endTime":1122.26,"body":"in a very happy area. I like"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1122.26,"endTime":1124.75,"body":"him, and he likes me. But the"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1122.26,"endTime":1124.75,"body":"argument was as follows the"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1124.75,"endTime":1128.35,"body":"intervention of let's say, Tas"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1124.75,"endTime":1128.35,"body":"has been found by education down"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1128.7099999999998,"endTime":1132.58,"body":"to and based on various other"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1128.7099999999998,"endTime":1132.58,"body":"research by Blatchford. And so"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1132.6399999999999,"endTime":1136.03,"body":"to be that, essentially, they're"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1132.6399999999999,"endTime":1136.03,"body":"a waste of space and waste of"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1136.03,"endTime":1138.34,"body":"time, space and money, right?"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1136.03,"endTime":1138.34,"body":"Because they don't have the"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1138.34,"endTime":1141.85,"body":"impact that they need. So my"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1138.34,"endTime":1141.85,"body":"argument against it was, that's"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1141.85,"endTime":1145.99,"body":"not true. TAs are only really as"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1141.85,"endTime":1145.99,"body":"good as you train them, and then"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1146.02,"endTime":1148.27,"body":"line manage them. And if you"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1146.02,"endTime":1148.27,"body":"support them really, really"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1148.27,"endTime":1151.7199999999998,"body":"well, then they can be absolute"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1148.27,"endTime":1151.7199999999998,"body":"gold dustt to a school and endow"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1151.7199999999998,"endTime":1155.1999999999998,"body":"them far more than anything"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1151.7199999999998,"endTime":1155.1999999999998,"body":"else. At the end of the day, as"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1155.1999999999998,"endTime":1158.4099999999999,"body":"people in semh know, that"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1155.1999999999998,"endTime":1158.4099999999999,"body":"relationships is everything. And"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1158.4099999999999,"endTime":1161.56,"body":"some of the best relationships"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1158.4099999999999,"endTime":1161.56,"body":"and bonds that can be made in a"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1161.56,"endTime":1165.4599999999998,"body":"school is between a TA and a"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1161.56,"endTime":1165.4599999999998,"body":"student, but how we deploy them,"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1165.4599999999998,"endTime":1167.83,"body":"how we support them, how they"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1165.4599999999998,"endTime":1167.83,"body":"how we train them, and"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1167.83,"endTime":1171.58,"body":"everything is everything so that"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1167.83,"endTime":1171.58,"body":"the National view of certain"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1171.58,"endTime":1174.58,"body":"data may well highlight a"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1171.58,"endTime":1174.58,"body":"particular problem which partly"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1174.58,"endTime":1176.9499999999998,"body":"I'd agree with, it doesn't give"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1174.58,"endTime":1176.9499999999998,"body":"the whole picture. And so I'm"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1176.9499999999998,"endTime":1180.82,"body":"really be careful about just"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1176.9499999999998,"endTime":1180.82,"body":"having bog standard approaches"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1181.06,"endTime":1182.3799999999999,"body":"to individuals."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1182.35,"endTime":1188.35,"body":"I just like to"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1182.35,"endTime":1188.35,"body":"take a pause for a moment and"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1188.35,"endTime":1191.1699999999998,"body":"say that if you're finding this"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1188.35,"endTime":1191.1699999999998,"body":"podcast useful, then you're"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1191.1699999999998,"endTime":1194.53,"body":"going to love what we've got"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1191.1699999999998,"endTime":1194.53,"body":"waiting for you in our inner"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1194.53,"endTime":1197.6499999999999,"body":"circle programme. The Inner"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1194.53,"endTime":1197.6499999999999,"body":"Circle is your one stop shop for"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1197.83,"endTime":1201.79,"body":"all things behaviour. It's a"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1197.83,"endTime":1201.79,"body":"comprehensive platform filled"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1201.79,"endTime":1205.36,"body":"with videos, resources and"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1201.79,"endTime":1205.36,"body":"behaviour inspiration to get you"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1205.6299999999999,"endTime":1208.24,"body":"unstuck with classroom"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1205.6299999999999,"endTime":1208.24,"body":"behaviour. We've got training"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1208.24,"endTime":1212.1699999999998,"body":"resources on de escalation,"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1208.24,"endTime":1212.1699999999998,"body":"supporting kids with anxiety"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1212.3799999999999,"endTime":1215.6799999999998,"body":"support strategies for"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1212.3799999999999,"endTime":1215.6799999999998,"body":"conditions like autism, ADHD,"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1215.6799999999998,"endTime":1219.61,"body":"and PDA. practical ways of"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1215.6799999999998,"endTime":1219.61,"body":"helping pupils deal with strong"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1219.61,"endTime":1222.55,"body":"emotions, assertive behaviour"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1219.61,"endTime":1222.55,"body":"management techniques for"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1222.55,"endTime":1225.25,"body":"managing the whole classroom"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1222.55,"endTime":1225.25,"body":"setting out your classroom"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1225.25,"endTime":1228.1599999999999,"body":"environment for success."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1225.25,"endTime":1228.1599999999999,"body":"Resetting behaviour with tricky"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1228.1599999999999,"endTime":1231.4599999999998,"body":"classes, and more. Our online"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1228.1599999999999,"endTime":1231.4599999999998,"body":"videos walk you through"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1231.4599999999998,"endTime":1236.05,"body":"practical solutions step by"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1231.4599999999998,"endTime":1236.05,"body":"step, just like Netflix, you can"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1236.05,"endTime":1238.81,"body":"turn an Inner Circle"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1236.05,"endTime":1238.81,"body":"subscription on or off whenever"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1238.81,"endTime":1242.7099999999998,"body":"you need to, with no minimum"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1238.81,"endTime":1242.7099999999998,"body":"contract Plus, you can now get"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1242.7099999999998,"endTime":1247.09,"body":"your first seven days of Inner"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1242.7099999999998,"endTime":1247.09,"body":"Circle for just one pound. Get"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1247.09,"endTime":1250.12,"body":"the behaviour answers and you've"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1247.09,"endTime":1250.12,"body":"been looking forward today with"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1250.2099999999998,"endTime":1253.51,"body":"Inner Circle visit to"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1250.2099999999998,"endTime":1253.51,"body":"www.beaconschoolsupport.co.uk"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1253.7199999999998,"endTime":1256.57,"body":"and click on the Inner Circle"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1253.7199999999998,"endTime":1256.57,"body":"picture near the top of the"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1256.57,"endTime":1258.37,"body":"homepage for more information."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1261.1399999999999,"endTime":1264.8,"body":"So there's a push at the moment."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1261.1399999999999,"endTime":1264.8,"body":"It's very, very popular the EEF"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1264.8,"endTime":1268.4599999999998,"body":"view of evidence based"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1264.8,"endTime":1268.4599999999998,"body":"interventions using something"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1268.4599999999998,"endTime":1271.82,"body":"that's been tried and tested in"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1268.4599999999998,"endTime":1271.82,"body":"other schools or other settings."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1271.9099999999999,"endTime":1275.3,"body":"How do we square that circle"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1271.9099999999999,"endTime":1275.3,"body":"then between getting bespoke"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1275.3,"endTime":1278.78,"body":"interventions based on the"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1275.3,"endTime":1278.78,"body":"individual children's needs but"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1278.87,"endTime":1284.03,"body":"then also using best practice or"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1278.87,"endTime":1284.03,"body":"practice that's been proven to"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1284.03,"endTime":1288.1399999999999,"body":"support children with not the"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1284.03,"endTime":1288.1399999999999,"body":"same needs but similar kinds of"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1288.1399999999999,"endTime":1289.58,"body":"needs? What's your take on that?"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1289.6799999999998,"endTime":1292.4699999999998,"body":"I think it's"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1289.6799999999998,"endTime":1292.4699999999998,"body":"again, on a national scale. I"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1292.4699999999998,"endTime":1294.78,"body":"mean, it's actually quite useful"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1292.4699999999998,"endTime":1294.78,"body":"to have this thing called Pupil"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1294.78,"endTime":1297.6599999999999,"body":"Premium and indicate against"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1294.78,"endTime":1297.6599999999999,"body":"free school meals. But you know,"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1297.6599999999999,"endTime":1300.54,"body":"the data doesn't always square"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1297.6599999999999,"endTime":1300.54,"body":"and I mentioned that before. And"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1300.54,"endTime":1303.03,"body":"so it's interesting because we"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1300.54,"endTime":1303.03,"body":"were working across a whole load"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1303.03,"endTime":1306.8999999999999,"body":"of schools in a rural area. And"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1303.03,"endTime":1306.8999999999999,"body":"actually the most impoverished"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1306.8999999999999,"endTime":1309.6,"body":"children, were not children on"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1306.8999999999999,"endTime":1309.6,"body":"the free school meals index."},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1309.6,"endTime":1312.8999999999999,"body":"were actually the children who's"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1309.6,"endTime":1312.8999999999999,"body":"come from parents who work in"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1312.8999999999999,"endTime":1315.57,"body":"farms, and they're called"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1312.8999999999999,"endTime":1315.57,"body":"farmhands, I think that's the"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1315.57,"endTime":1319.8,"body":"role. And because they get paid"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1315.57,"endTime":1319.8,"body":"the minimum wage, they literally"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1319.8,"endTime":1322.6799999999998,"body":"are living on the poverty line."},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1319.8,"endTime":1322.6799999999998,"body":"And so there's an example of how"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1322.6799999999998,"endTime":1325.1999999999998,"body":"that national picture doesn't"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1322.6799999999998,"endTime":1325.1999999999998,"body":"really make sense in the local"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1325.1999999999998,"endTime":1328.05,"body":"region. That concept of"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1325.1999999999998,"endTime":1328.05,"body":"mistranslation is true"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1328.05,"endTime":1331.83,"body":"everywhere, and is also true"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1328.05,"endTime":1331.83,"body":"within the EEF. So maybe there's"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1331.83,"endTime":1335.79,"body":"some useful indications. Well,"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1331.83,"endTime":1335.79,"body":"boosting like this helps more"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1335.79,"endTime":1339.54,"body":"with that. But actually, for me,"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1335.79,"endTime":1339.54,"body":"what I'm interested in, I'd ask"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1339.54,"endTime":1342.6599999999999,"body":"your listeners to think about"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1339.54,"endTime":1342.6599999999999,"body":"this, what's more interesting to"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1342.6599999999999,"endTime":1346.4399999999998,"body":"you- an intervention that is"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1342.6599999999999,"endTime":1346.4399999999998,"body":"boosting a particular reading"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1346.4399999999998,"endTime":1349.53,"body":"age, that may be based on a sort"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1346.4399999999998,"endTime":1349.53,"body":"of withdrawal programme sitting"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1349.53,"endTime":1352.1999999999998,"body":"at a computer, but they're being"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1349.53,"endTime":1352.1999999999998,"body":"taken out of lessons to do it?"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1352.29,"endTime":1356.1599999999999,"body":"or we're supporting the child by"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1352.29,"endTime":1356.1599999999999,"body":"giving them some pre learning"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1356.1599999999999,"endTime":1359.6699999999998,"body":"and over learning inside the"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1356.1599999999999,"endTime":1359.6699999999998,"body":"classroom, to be able to know"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1359.6999999999998,"endTime":1362.25,"body":"have a heads up of what's coming"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1359.6999999999998,"endTime":1362.25,"body":"up in this lesson, even to be"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1362.25,"endTime":1365.4599999999998,"body":"able to give them an answer that"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1362.25,"endTime":1365.4599999999998,"body":"they can contribute. So what"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1365.4599999999998,"endTime":1368.58,"body":"we're trying to promote is"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1365.4599999999998,"endTime":1368.58,"body":"things like engagement and"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1368.58,"endTime":1372.7199999999998,"body":"participation and that"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1368.58,"endTime":1372.7199999999998,"body":"confidence to belong in the"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1372.7199999999998,"endTime":1376.3799999999999,"body":"classroom is not something as a"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1372.7199999999998,"endTime":1376.3799999999999,"body":"factor that has been considered"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1376.3799999999999,"endTime":1380.1899999999998,"body":"nationally. So the EEF for all"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1376.3799999999999,"endTime":1380.1899999999998,"body":"its wisdom may well have been"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1380.1899999999998,"endTime":1383.1,"body":"looking at. And by the way,"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1380.1899999999998,"endTime":1383.1,"body":"don't get me wrong. I think EEF"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1383.1,"endTime":1385.4699999999998,"body":"is doing wonderful things. And"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1383.1,"endTime":1385.4699999999998,"body":"it's certainly making us all"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1385.4699999999998,"endTime":1388.4399999999998,"body":"think. This discussion point"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1385.4699999999998,"endTime":1388.4399999999998,"body":"wouldn't be around without EEF."},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1388.4399999999998,"endTime":1391.26,"body":"So thank you very much. And I'm"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1388.4399999999998,"endTime":1391.26,"body":"not saying  don't throw the baby"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1391.26,"endTime":1393.9299999999998,"body":"out with the bathwater here."},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1391.26,"endTime":1393.9299999999998,"body":"This point in this is that, you"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1393.9299999999998,"endTime":1398.34,"body":"know, what's our goal, what's"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1393.9299999999998,"endTime":1398.34,"body":"our purpose, I would argue the"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1398.37,"endTime":1403.05,"body":"goal is in the maximising the"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1398.37,"endTime":1403.05,"body":"participation and engagement and"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1403.05,"endTime":1406.56,"body":"feeling and the sense of"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1403.05,"endTime":1406.56,"body":"belonging of a child. In the"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1406.56,"endTime":1410.31,"body":"classroom, I belong here, and I"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1406.56,"endTime":1410.31,"body":"can participate here, and I can"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1410.31,"endTime":1413.9699999999998,"body":"engage here, I feel safe here."},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1410.31,"endTime":1413.9699999999998,"body":"And I can be me, that is"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1413.9699999999998,"endTime":1417.6599999999999,"body":"something that doesn't get"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1413.9699999999998,"endTime":1417.6599999999999,"body":"helped by a withdrawal"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1417.6599999999999,"endTime":1420.8999999999999,"body":"programme. When I give talks, I"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1417.6599999999999,"endTime":1420.8999999999999,"body":"give a sort of stark example of"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1420.8999999999999,"endTime":1425.34,"body":"two schools that took this to an"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1420.8999999999999,"endTime":1425.34,"body":"extreme. One school withdrew"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1425.34,"endTime":1428.55,"body":"students in an English lesson in"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1425.34,"endTime":1428.55,"body":"a secondary school three times a"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1428.55,"endTime":1431.4299999999998,"body":"week to boost their reading"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1428.55,"endTime":1431.4299999999998,"body":"comprehension. And computer"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1431.4299999999998,"endTime":1434.04,"body":"based programme was quite"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1431.4299999999998,"endTime":1434.04,"body":"expensive,  youve probably all"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1434.04,"endTime":1437.4299999999998,"body":"heard of it. And then there was"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1434.04,"endTime":1437.4299999999998,"body":"another group where a TA sat"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1437.4299999999998,"endTime":1442.23,"body":"with the identified group of"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1437.4299999999998,"endTime":1442.23,"body":"students, and this pre learning"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1442.23,"endTime":1445.53,"body":"piece, right. And this is where"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1442.23,"endTime":1445.53,"body":"up to in the story. These are"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1445.53,"endTime":1448.35,"body":"some of the keywords, you know,"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1445.53,"endTime":1448.35,"body":"this is what's coming up. This"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1448.35,"endTime":1450.51,"body":"is how you can contribute. This"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1448.35,"endTime":1450.51,"body":"is a question that teachers"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1450.51,"endTime":1453.2099999999998,"body":"gonna ask, this is an answer you"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1450.51,"endTime":1453.2099999999998,"body":"can give. And there's a question"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1453.2099999999998,"endTime":1455.76,"body":"that you can ask, and then over"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1453.2099999999998,"endTime":1455.76,"body":"learning at the end of the"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1455.76,"endTime":1459.06,"body":"lesson, and then I asked the"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1455.76,"endTime":1459.06,"body":"audience, well, what do you get"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1459.1499999999999,"endTime":1462.81,"body":"what's happened to these two"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1459.1499999999999,"endTime":1462.81,"body":"groups. And most people, I have"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1462.81,"endTime":1467.2199999999998,"body":"to say, the vast majority, 99%"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1462.81,"endTime":1467.2199999999998,"body":"of people would say that what is"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1467.2199999999998,"endTime":1470.3999999999999,"body":"preferable is the keeping"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1467.2199999999998,"endTime":1470.3999999999999,"body":"children in the classroom and"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1470.3999999999999,"endTime":1473.2199999999998,"body":"giving them a feeling of"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1470.3999999999999,"endTime":1473.2199999999998,"body":"belonging, and a sense of that"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1473.2199999999998,"endTime":1476.1899999999998,"body":"they can. And in the end, what"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1473.2199999999998,"endTime":1476.1899999999998,"body":"actually happened was that there"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1476.1899999999998,"endTime":1479.6999999999998,"body":"was a very sharp result in the"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1476.1899999999998,"endTime":1479.6999999999998,"body":"reading age, but there was a"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1479.6999999999998,"endTime":1482.6399999999999,"body":"very low result in terms of"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1479.6999999999998,"endTime":1482.6399999999999,"body":"engagement in the curriculum,"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1482.82,"endTime":1485.34,"body":"and that you see as a trend"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1482.82,"endTime":1485.34,"body":"across the country, but again,"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1485.37,"endTime":1488.9099999999999,"body":"take the trends with a pinch of"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1485.37,"endTime":1488.9099999999999,"body":"salt. And so it could be that"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1488.9099999999999,"endTime":1491.58,"body":"the E FF would look at this"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1488.9099999999999,"endTime":1491.58,"body":"particular intervention and say,"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1491.61,"endTime":1494.04,"body":"Well done intervention, that's"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1491.61,"endTime":1494.04,"body":"great, do that. Whereas"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1494.04,"endTime":1497.31,"body":"actually, what you may know of"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1494.04,"endTime":1497.31,"body":"this particular child, they'd be"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1497.31,"endTime":1501.27,"body":"better off if they stayed in the"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1497.31,"endTime":1501.27,"body":"class, were encouraged to, for"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1501.27,"endTime":1504.54,"body":"example, read in front of peers"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1501.27,"endTime":1504.54,"body":"for the first. Now, you may well"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1504.54,"endTime":1506.4299999999998,"body":"say, well, that's a generic"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1504.54,"endTime":1506.4299999999998,"body":"intervention you could do"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1506.4299999999998,"endTime":1509.1,"body":"everywhere, which kind of flows"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1506.4299999999998,"endTime":1509.1,"body":"my point, but no, the point"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1509.1,"endTime":1512.2199999999998,"body":"which I'm using to illustrate is"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1509.1,"endTime":1512.2199999999998,"body":"that, you know, the EEF is only"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1512.2199999999998,"endTime":1514.7099999999998,"body":"looking for a certain thing, and"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1512.2199999999998,"endTime":1514.7099999999998,"body":"most of the barriers with"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1514.7099999999998,"endTime":1517.32,"body":"children are personalised or"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1514.7099999999998,"endTime":1517.32,"body":"individualised, you know, there"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1517.32,"endTime":1520.23,"body":"to them. And a lot of them have"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1517.32,"endTime":1520.23,"body":"to do with an underlying"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1520.23,"endTime":1523.83,"body":"psychological issue around"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1520.23,"endTime":1523.83,"body":"anxiety and not having enough"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1523.83,"endTime":1526.98,"body":"basic term of self esteem,"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1523.83,"endTime":1526.98,"body":"feeling like anyone's there"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1526.98,"endTime":1529.83,"body":"rooting for them belonging or"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1526.98,"endTime":1529.83,"body":"they don't like this particular"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1529.83,"endTime":1533.61,"body":"teacher. There's lots and lots"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1529.83,"endTime":1533.61,"body":"of factors like that, which just"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1533.61,"endTime":1535.35,"body":"doing an intervention doesn't"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1533.61,"endTime":1535.35,"body":"overcome."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1535.56,"endTime":1537.1799999999998,"body":"Could you tell"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1535.56,"endTime":1537.1799999999998,"body":"us a little bit about your"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1537.1799999999998,"endTime":1540.57,"body":"approach to sort of SEMH"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1537.1799999999998,"endTime":1540.57,"body":"interventions and working with"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1540.57,"endTime":1543.6599999999999,"body":"children for whom SEMH is a"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1540.57,"endTime":1543.6599999999999,"body":"significant issue. You've"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1543.6599999999999,"endTime":1547.02,"body":"written the book leading on"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1543.6599999999999,"endTime":1547.02,"body":"pastoral care. Please talk us"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1547.02,"endTime":1550.05,"body":"through some of the gold from"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1547.02,"endTime":1550.05,"body":"that book, if you know, we've"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1550.05,"endTime":1552.9599999999998,"body":"got teaching assistants and"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1550.05,"endTime":1552.9599999999998,"body":"learning mentors and teachers"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1553.08,"endTime":1556.8,"body":"trying to support those kind of"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1553.08,"endTime":1556.8,"body":"kids. What's your approach to"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1556.83,"endTime":1560.58,"body":"specific pastoral meetings and"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1556.83,"endTime":1560.58,"body":"support programmes?"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1561.07,"endTime":1562.48,"body":"Well, obviously I"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1561.07,"endTime":1562.48,"body":"don't wanna say too much because"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1562.48,"endTime":1565.1799999999998,"body":"I want to give people plenty of"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1562.48,"endTime":1565.1799999999998,"body":"opportunity to enjoy the book!."},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1565.57,"endTime":1568.4199999999998,"body":"So as a general theme in that"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1565.57,"endTime":1568.4199999999998,"body":"particular book, what I've tried"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1568.4199999999998,"endTime":1571.6299999999999,"body":"to do is to cover in very"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1568.4199999999998,"endTime":1571.6299999999999,"body":"practical terms, how all of the"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1571.6299999999999,"endTime":1575.77,"body":"biggest challenges that seem to"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1571.6299999999999,"endTime":1575.77,"body":"get overlooked, such as the"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1575.77,"endTime":1579.3999999999999,"body":"heavy weight of paperwork that"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1575.77,"endTime":1579.3999999999999,"body":"goes along very often with more"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1579.3999999999999,"endTime":1583.6,"body":"challenging cases, especially"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1579.3999999999999,"endTime":1583.6,"body":"EHCP's or SEN related cases,"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1583.99,"endTime":1586.51,"body":"paperwork becomes a massive"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1583.99,"endTime":1586.51,"body":"issue, and a lot of the"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1586.51,"endTime":1590.02,"body":"paperwork is bloody pointless,"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1586.51,"endTime":1590.02,"body":"more than that, it often gets in"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1590.02,"endTime":1595.12,"body":"the way of doing good work with"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1590.02,"endTime":1595.12,"body":"children and with family. And so"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1595.12,"endTime":1598.1799999999998,"body":"what we look at is reinventing"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1595.12,"endTime":1598.1799999999998,"body":"the ways of doing paper. And so"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1598.1799999999998,"endTime":1600.1299999999999,"body":"that's a whole chapter that's"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1598.1799999999998,"endTime":1600.1299999999999,"body":"never really been covered"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1600.1299999999999,"endTime":1602.62,"body":"before. And there's another"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1600.1299999999999,"endTime":1602.62,"body":"chapter, which is about how to"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1602.62,"endTime":1605.4399999999998,"body":"engage with parents who are hard"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1602.62,"endTime":1605.4399999999998,"body":"to reach. These are things which"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1605.4399999999998,"endTime":1607.84,"body":"are quite common probably to"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1605.4399999999998,"endTime":1607.84,"body":"most listeners, and certainly"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1607.84,"endTime":1611.9199999999998,"body":"most senior leaders get stressed"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1607.84,"endTime":1611.9199999999998,"body":"out by angry parents being"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1611.9199999999998,"endTime":1614.9199999999998,"body":"overwhelmed by paperwork. And I"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1611.9199999999998,"endTime":1614.9199999999998,"body":"had to draw on a lot of research"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1614.9199999999998,"endTime":1618.34,"body":"from Social Work from the NHS,"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1614.9199999999998,"endTime":1618.34,"body":"and I looked at a piece of"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1618.34,"endTime":1622.81,"body":"research in South Africa. In my"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1618.34,"endTime":1622.81,"body":"final chapter, I describe lots"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1622.81,"endTime":1626.53,"body":"of different ways of building"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1622.81,"endTime":1626.53,"body":"inclusive environments, and in"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1626.53,"endTime":1629.4699999999998,"body":"non standard and non formal"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1626.53,"endTime":1629.4699999999998,"body":"ways. But the idea of it was to"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1629.4699999999998,"endTime":1632.8,"body":"try and promote thinking around"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1629.4699999999998,"endTime":1632.8,"body":"what inclusion could mean, this"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1632.8,"endTime":1636.58,"body":"particular concept I liked quite"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1632.8,"endTime":1636.58,"body":"a lot. It comes from the African"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1636.61,"endTime":1640.9299999999998,"body":"village style idea of like,"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1636.61,"endTime":1640.9299999999998,"body":"either we all survive, or we all"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1640.9299999999998,"endTime":1644.1399999999999,"body":"die, like we live and die"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1640.9299999999998,"endTime":1644.1399999999999,"body":"together. Imagine you say to"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1644.1399999999999,"endTime":1648.2199999999998,"body":"your class, we're going to give"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1644.1399999999999,"endTime":1648.2199999999998,"body":"everyone here an A grade, or an"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1648.2199999999998,"endTime":1651.9699999999998,"body":"F grade, either everyone here"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1648.2199999999998,"endTime":1651.9699999999998,"body":"gets an A, or everyone here gets"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1651.9699999999998,"endTime":1654.6399999999999,"body":"an F, and here's the task. Off"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1651.9699999999998,"endTime":1654.6399999999999,"body":"you go. And what do you think"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1654.6399999999999,"endTime":1655.06,"body":"would happen?"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1655.06,"endTime":1656.1999999999998,"body":"Suddenly, we're"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1655.06,"endTime":1656.1999999999998,"body":"a team?"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1656.2199999999998,"endTime":1658.62,"body":"Yeah, well, yeah,"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1656.2199999999998,"endTime":1658.62,"body":"everyone has to help each other."},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1659.01,"endTime":1662.07,"body":"But the idea being is that"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1659.01,"endTime":1662.07,"body":"inclusion doesn't have to be,"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1662.1299999999999,"endTime":1666.27,"body":"well, here's a standard for"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1662.1299999999999,"endTime":1666.27,"body":"these top students. And then"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1666.81,"endTime":1670.4699999999998,"body":"it's all about scooping up the"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1666.81,"endTime":1670.4699999999998,"body":"bottom ones, the inclusion could"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1670.4699999999998,"endTime":1673.98,"body":"be driven by the students"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1670.4699999999998,"endTime":1673.98,"body":"themselves. And truth is, if you"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1673.98,"endTime":1676.8,"body":"said that to teachers, as well,"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1673.98,"endTime":1676.8,"body":"I mean, no teacher is going to"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1676.8,"endTime":1679.4399999999998,"body":"like me saying, but you can say"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1676.8,"endTime":1679.4399999999998,"body":"to teachers, we're getting rid"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1679.4399999999998,"endTime":1682.7099999999998,"body":"of all interventions. But"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1679.4399999999998,"endTime":1682.7099999999998,"body":"basically, we were spending"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1683.04,"endTime":1686.37,"body":"250,000 pounds on interventions"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1683.04,"endTime":1686.37,"body":"in our school. And what we"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1686.37,"endTime":1688.9499999999998,"body":"decided to do is to give you"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1686.37,"endTime":1688.9499999999998,"body":"that money, if all of our"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1688.9499999999998,"endTime":1692.6399999999999,"body":"students do really well in their"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1688.9499999999998,"endTime":1692.6399999999999,"body":"exams, and if they don't, we're"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1692.6399999999999,"endTime":1696.7199999999998,"body":"going to take away some of your"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1692.6399999999999,"endTime":1696.7199999999998,"body":"pay package. Off you go. And the"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1696.7199999999998,"endTime":1699.81,"body":"experiment is interesting as"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1696.7199999999998,"endTime":1699.81,"body":"well, what would happen? you"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1699.81,"endTime":1702.87,"body":"know, there was a local"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1699.81,"endTime":1702.87,"body":"authority that asked me to lead"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1702.87,"endTime":1705.03,"body":"on a narrowing the gap"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1702.87,"endTime":1705.03,"body":"programme, we were looking at"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1705.03,"endTime":1707.9399999999998,"body":"sort of the budget for it was"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1705.03,"endTime":1707.9399999999998,"body":"about a million pounds. And they"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1707.9399999999998,"endTime":1710.07,"body":"said, What do you think the best"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1707.9399999999998,"endTime":1710.07,"body":"way of spending a million pounds"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1710.07,"endTime":1712.6499999999999,"body":"is and I said, I don't know,"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1710.07,"endTime":1712.6499999999999,"body":"rewards and bonuses for"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1712.6499999999999,"endTime":1716.25,"body":"teachers. I said it as a, as a"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1712.6499999999999,"endTime":1716.25,"body":"bit of a joke, but they kind of"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1716.25,"endTime":1717.9299999999998,"body":"wrote it down. I mean,"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1716.25,"endTime":1717.9299999999998,"body":"obviously, we don't have a"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1717.9299999999998,"endTime":1720.6599999999999,"body":"culture of that, you know, we're"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1717.9299999999998,"endTime":1720.6599999999999,"body":"public sector workers, right?"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1721.1699999999998,"endTime":1724.59,"body":"This is possible to reshape the"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1721.1699999999998,"endTime":1724.59,"body":"framework of inclusion, because"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1724.59,"endTime":1728.76,"body":"inclusion looks like an a4 page"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1724.59,"endTime":1728.76,"body":"that is in sort of in vertical,"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1728.79,"endTime":1730.59,"body":"where you've got the students at"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1728.79,"endTime":1730.59,"body":"the top, and most of the"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1730.59,"endTime":1732.57,"body":"students in the middle and you"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1730.59,"endTime":1732.57,"body":"got these ones at the bottom."},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1732.8999999999999,"endTime":1736.9199999999998,"body":"Right. And I'm suggesting that"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1732.8999999999999,"endTime":1736.9199999999998,"body":"we can flip the page. So as much"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1736.9199999999998,"endTime":1740.25,"body":"more horizontal, we're just a"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1736.9199999999998,"endTime":1740.25,"body":"bunch of students, you know, and"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1740.25,"endTime":1742.1699999999998,"body":"that's a different way of"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1740.25,"endTime":1742.1699999999998,"body":"thinking completely."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1742.28,"endTime":1745.52,"body":"Daniel, we've"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1742.28,"endTime":1745.52,"body":"only scratched the surface of"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1745.52,"endTime":1747.83,"body":"your work. So if you're a"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1745.52,"endTime":1747.83,"body":"teacher, or a school leader, or"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1747.83,"endTime":1751.1899999999998,"body":"a Senko, listening to this"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1747.83,"endTime":1751.1899999999998,"body":"podcast, what's the first step"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1751.1899999999998,"endTime":1755.1499999999999,"body":"you can take today, to find out"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1751.1899999999998,"endTime":1755.1499999999999,"body":"more about your approach to"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1755.1799999999998,"endTime":1757.8799999999999,"body":"well, not just putting in place"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1755.1799999999998,"endTime":1757.8799999999999,"body":"interventions that make a real"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1757.8799999999999,"endTime":1760.37,"body":"difference in school, but"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1757.8799999999999,"endTime":1760.37,"body":"inclusion in general, if you"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1760.37,"endTime":1761.81,"body":"want to make a real difference"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1760.37,"endTime":1761.81,"body":"in your school?"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1761.7389999999998,"endTime":1764.2199999999998,"body":"Very simple"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1761.7389999999998,"endTime":1764.2199999999998,"body":"things. Firstly, have a look at"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1764.2769999999998,"endTime":1767.6239999999998,"body":"my books. Thank you very much. I"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1764.2769999999998,"endTime":1767.6239999999998,"body":"recently started a global"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1767.682,"endTime":1770.6239999999998,"body":"platform for inclusion"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1767.682,"endTime":1770.6239999999998,"body":"practitioners representation"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1770.682,"endTime":1773.567,"body":"from over 80 different"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1770.682,"endTime":1773.567,"body":"countries. The idea is that"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1773.625,"endTime":1776.625,"body":"sharing best practices and"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1773.625,"endTime":1776.625,"body":"supporting each other and"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1776.683,"endTime":1780.202,"body":"advocacy with governments and"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1776.683,"endTime":1780.202,"body":"everything, we're doing it with"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1780.26,"endTime":1783.722,"body":"UNESCO. So please have a look at"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1780.26,"endTime":1783.722,"body":"that the the web address is"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1783.78,"endTime":1787.184,"body":"www.ifip.group, the website"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1783.78,"endTime":1787.184,"body":"still in its beta format, but I"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1787.242,"endTime":1790.992,"body":"would appreciate if you do that,"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1787.242,"endTime":1790.992,"body":"and but it's not just a place to"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1791.05,"endTime":1794.165,"body":"learn. It's a place to"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1791.05,"endTime":1794.165,"body":"contribute and support and lots"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1794.223,"endTime":1797.801,"body":"of wonderful countries involved."},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1794.223,"endTime":1797.801,"body":"Most countries beginning with"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1797.858,"endTime":1801.262,"body":"the letter B, a wonderful like"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1797.858,"endTime":1801.262,"body":"Bhutan, Benin, Burkina Faso,"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1801.32,"endTime":1804.84,"body":"Bosnia, Belize, all these are"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1801.32,"endTime":1804.84,"body":"interesting. So yeah, be really"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1804.898,"endTime":1808.36,"body":"good if you have a look at my"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1804.898,"endTime":1808.36,"body":"books and have a look at that."},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1808.8,"endTime":1812.4599999999998,"body":"And I'll put direct links to"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1808.8,"endTime":1812.4599999999998,"body":"those the books and the website"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1812.49,"endTime":1814.4099999999999,"body":"in the show notes. So if you're"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1812.49,"endTime":1814.4099999999999,"body":"listening, you can just open"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1814.4099999999999,"endTime":1817.98,"body":"your podcast app and click"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1814.4099999999999,"endTime":1817.98,"body":"directly through. Last of all,"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1817.98,"endTime":1821.6999999999998,"body":"Daniel, and we asked this of all"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1817.98,"endTime":1821.6999999999998,"body":"our guests, who's the key figure"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1821.6999999999998,"endTime":1824.6399999999999,"body":"that's influenced you? Or what"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1821.6999999999998,"endTime":1824.6399999999999,"body":"are the key books that you've"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1824.6399999999999,"endTime":1827.55,"body":"read that have had the biggest"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1824.6399999999999,"endTime":1827.55,"body":"impact on your approach to"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1827.55,"endTime":1828.7199999999998,"body":"working with kids?"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1828.77,"endTime":1833.3,"body":"There's three of which I only"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1828.77,"endTime":1833.3,"body":"recommend two because after"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1833.3,"endTime":1836.3899999999999,"body":"school when I failed school,"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1833.3,"endTime":1836.3899999999999,"body":"eventually I went on my way into"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1836.3899999999999,"endTime":1838.52,"body":"a master's in education"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1836.3899999999999,"endTime":1838.52,"body":"psychology at the institute. And"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1838.52,"endTime":1841.1299999999999,"body":"then I did a master's in"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1838.52,"endTime":1841.1299999999999,"body":"psychotherapy, and I'm a senior"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1841.1299999999999,"endTime":1843.74,"body":"doctor in psychotherapy. And I"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1841.1299999999999,"endTime":1843.74,"body":"really focused on phenomenology"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1843.74,"endTime":1847.61,"body":"and existentialism as it relates"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1843.74,"endTime":1847.61,"body":"to psychology and so on. And"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1847.61,"endTime":1850.34,"body":"that has informed my practice"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1847.61,"endTime":1850.34,"body":"entirely through absolutely"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1850.34,"endTime":1853.1,"body":"everything and my view of"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1850.34,"endTime":1853.1,"body":"education and the most"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1853.1,"endTime":1855.8,"body":"influential book there that"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1853.1,"endTime":1855.8,"body":"really changed my life was and I"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1855.8,"endTime":1858.56,"body":"don't recommend this to anybody,"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1855.8,"endTime":1858.56,"body":"was  Heidegger's Being in Time,"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1858.59,"endTime":1860.8999999999999,"body":"mainly because it's the most"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1858.59,"endTime":1860.8999999999999,"body":"ridiculously written book and"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1860.8999999999999,"endTime":1863.99,"body":"it's awful to read, but some of"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1860.8999999999999,"endTime":1863.99,"body":"the ideas in it were just so"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1864.02,"endTime":1866.9599999999998,"body":"incredibly revolutionary for me"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1864.02,"endTime":1866.9599999999998,"body":"and anyone who's read it kind of"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1866.9599999999998,"endTime":1869.1799999999998,"body":"knows what I'm talking about,"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1866.9599999999998,"endTime":1869.1799999999998,"body":"but you'll also probably equally"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1869.1799999999998,"endTime":1871.6399999999999,"body":"not recommend it to anyone. It's"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1869.1799999999998,"endTime":1871.6399999999999,"body":"a horrible book. Two which I do"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1871.6399999999999,"endTime":1875.48,"body":"recommend very much is the works"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1871.6399999999999,"endTime":1875.48,"body":"of Erich Fromm. And the reason"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1875.48,"endTime":1877.9099999999999,"body":"why I think he was one of the"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1875.48,"endTime":1877.9099999999999,"body":"greatest of psychologists and"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1877.9099999999999,"endTime":1880.6399999999999,"body":"helping us understand the modern"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1877.9099999999999,"endTime":1880.6399999999999,"body":"world, partly because he really"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1880.6399999999999,"endTime":1883.07,"body":"brings together both humanistic"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1880.6399999999999,"endTime":1883.07,"body":"psychology as well as"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1883.07,"endTime":1885.8899999999999,"body":"psychoanalytic psychology. He"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1883.07,"endTime":1885.8899999999999,"body":"brings together sociology with"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1885.8899999999999,"endTime":1888.62,"body":"economics, and politics and"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1885.8899999999999,"endTime":1888.62,"body":"everything also sort of"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1888.62,"endTime":1891.9199999999998,"body":"together, he's not afraid of it"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1888.62,"endTime":1891.9199999999998,"body":"being more of a sort of unified"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1891.9499999999998,"endTime":1895.49,"body":"view. And so he's for sure"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1891.9499999999998,"endTime":1895.49,"body":"influenced me an awful lot. And"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1895.49,"endTime":1898.6699999999998,"body":"the other one, which is helpful"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1895.49,"endTime":1898.6699999999998,"body":"both personally and"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1898.6699999999998,"endTime":1901.07,"body":"professionally, I've been quite"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1898.6699999999998,"endTime":1901.07,"body":"influenced by transactional"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1901.07,"endTime":1905.3899999999999,"body":"analysis. So TA it's called. And"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1901.07,"endTime":1905.3899999999999,"body":"there are some really good books"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1905.3899999999999,"endTime":1908.2099999999998,"body":"on it. Actually one of the"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1905.3899999999999,"endTime":1908.2099999999998,"body":"hardest books is the most common"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1908.2099999999998,"endTime":1911.6,"body":"book, which I don't recommend,"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1908.2099999999998,"endTime":1911.6,"body":"which is The Games That People"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1911.6,"endTime":1914.99,"body":"Play. I do reference transaction"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1911.6,"endTime":1914.99,"body":"analysis in my books quite a"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1914.99,"endTime":1918.26,"body":"bit. I think it helps us give a"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1914.99,"endTime":1918.26,"body":"language to what we bear witness"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1918.26,"endTime":1921.4099999999999,"body":"to. And that's quite useful very"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1918.26,"endTime":1921.4099999999999,"body":"often, when people who are"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1921.4099999999999,"endTime":1923.51,"body":"outside of the world of"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1921.4099999999999,"endTime":1923.51,"body":"psychology or psychotherapy"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1923.51,"endTime":1926.0,"body":"think well, what is the real"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1923.51,"endTime":1926.0,"body":"psychology? Well, actually, what"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1926.0,"endTime":1928.58,"body":"they mean is transactional"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1926.0,"endTime":1928.58,"body":"analysis, ways of looking at"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1928.58,"endTime":1931.1,"body":"people behaving and how you"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1928.58,"endTime":1931.1,"body":"describe it, and how you can"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1931.1,"endTime":1932.12,"body":"find it's really useful."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1932.1799999999998,"endTime":1934.25,"body":"Daniel thankyou"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1932.1799999999998,"endTime":1934.25,"body":"for being on the podcast."},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1934.28,"endTime":1935.6599999999999,"body":"Thank you so much"},{"speaker":"Daniel Sobel","startTime":1934.28,"endTime":1935.6599999999999,"body":"for having me."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1935.9199999999998,"endTime":1937.06,"body":"I've really"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1935.9199999999998,"endTime":1937.06,"body":"enjoyed it. Thankyou"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1937.78,"endTime":1941.02,"body":"What I really"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1937.78,"endTime":1941.02,"body":"like about Daniel's work is it's"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1941.02,"endTime":1944.6499999999999,"body":"based on a mixture of his"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1941.02,"endTime":1944.6499999999999,"body":"practical experience of"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1944.6499999999999,"endTime":1949.78,"body":"supporting schools, and using"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1944.6499999999999,"endTime":1949.78,"body":"the data in a really smart way"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1949.9299999999998,"endTime":1953.32,"body":"to get results for pupils. And"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1949.9299999999998,"endTime":1953.32,"body":"of course, if you're working"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1953.32,"endTime":1956.23,"body":"with kids with challenging"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1953.32,"endTime":1956.23,"body":"behaviour, the first thing to do"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1956.23,"endTime":1961.2099999999998,"body":"is identify the why behind that"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1956.23,"endTime":1961.2099999999998,"body":"behaviour. And we've got a"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1961.2099999999998,"endTime":1962.6799999999998,"body":"download that can help."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1962.7099999999998,"endTime":1964.8999999999999,"body":"It's called the"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1962.7099999999998,"endTime":1964.8999999999999,"body":"SEN handbook, and it will help"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1964.8999999999999,"endTime":1968.26,"body":"you link behaviours you've seen"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1964.8999999999999,"endTime":1968.26,"body":"in the classroom with possible"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1968.26,"endTime":1972.6999999999998,"body":"causes like autism and ADHD. The"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1968.26,"endTime":1972.6999999999998,"body":"idea here isn't for teachers to"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1972.6999999999998,"endTime":1975.6399999999999,"body":"make a diagnosis, we're not"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1972.6999999999998,"endTime":1975.6399999999999,"body":"qualified, that's not our place."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1975.6699999999998,"endTime":1978.79,"body":"But if we can link classroom"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1975.6699999999998,"endTime":1978.79,"body":"behaviours to possible causes"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1978.79,"endTime":1982.4499999999998,"body":"quickly, it means we can get the"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1978.79,"endTime":1982.4499999999998,"body":"right help and get early"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1982.4499999999998,"endTime":1985.6299999999999,"body":"intervention strategies in"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1982.4499999999998,"endTime":1985.6299999999999,"body":"place. It's a free download, go"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1985.6299999999999,"endTime":1988.4199999999998,"body":"to our website,"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1985.6299999999999,"endTime":1988.4199999999998,"body":"www.beaconschoolsupport.co.uk."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1988.4499999999998,"endTime":1991.6599999999999,"body":"Click on the Free Resources link"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1988.4499999999998,"endTime":1991.6599999999999,"body":"near the top and you can"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1991.6599999999999,"endTime":1994.06,"body":"download it from there. I'll"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1991.6599999999999,"endTime":1994.06,"body":"also put a link in the episode"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1994.06,"endTime":1994.6,"body":"description."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1994.6299999999999,"endTime":1996.55,"body":"If you've got a"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1994.6299999999999,"endTime":1996.55,"body":"friend or colleague who you"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1996.55,"endTime":2000.27,"body":"think would find the information"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1996.55,"endTime":2000.27,"body":"in today's interview useful,"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":2000.4199999999998,"endTime":2004.1999999999998,"body":"then don't keep it to yourself,"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":2000.4199999999998,"endTime":2004.1999999999998,"body":"be a good friend and share this"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":2004.1999999999998,"endTime":2007.9499999999998,"body":"podcast with them. You can do"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":2004.1999999999998,"endTime":2007.9499999999998,"body":"that by opening your podcast"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":2007.98,"endTime":2012.06,"body":"app, tapping the share button,"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":2007.98,"endTime":2012.06,"body":"and your app will send a direct"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":2012.06,"endTime":2016.3799999999999,"body":"link to any of your contacts by"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":2012.06,"endTime":2016.3799999999999,"body":"text messaging or email. It's"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":2016.3799999999999,"endTime":2020.31,"body":"easy, and it only takes 10"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":2016.3799999999999,"endTime":2020.31,"body":"seconds, you'll be helping your"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":2020.31,"endTime":2023.55,"body":"friends and pupils in other"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":2020.31,"endTime":2023.55,"body":"schools benefit from this"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":2023.55,"endTime":2024.87,"body":"information as well."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":2025.02,"endTime":2026.82,"body":"And finally,"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":2025.02,"endTime":2026.82,"body":"while you've got your podcast"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":2026.82,"endTime":2030.48,"body":"app open, make sure you don't"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":2026.82,"endTime":2030.48,"body":"miss a next week's episode by"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":2030.48,"endTime":2033.2099999999998,"body":"tapping the subscribe button or"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":2030.48,"endTime":2033.2099999999998,"body":"follow as it's now called in"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":2033.2099999999998,"endTime":2036.51,"body":"Apple podcasts. And then your"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":2033.2099999999998,"endTime":2036.51,"body":"podcast app will automatically"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":2036.51,"endTime":2040.02,"body":"grab each episode as it's"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":2036.51,"endTime":2040.02,"body":"released and store it safely for"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":2040.02,"endTime":2042.4199999999998,"body":"you in your phone so you never"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":2040.02,"endTime":2042.4199999999998,"body":"miss a thing that's going to"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":2042.4199999999998,"endTime":2045.7199999999998,"body":"give you the warm feeling inside"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":2042.4199999999998,"endTime":2045.7199999999998,"body":"you can normally only get from"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":2045.9299999999998,"endTime":2048.9,"body":"taking a custard cream,"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":2045.9299999999998,"endTime":2048.9,"body":"carefully removing the upper"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":2048.9,"endTime":2052.77,"body":"layer and scraping off that"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":2048.9,"endTime":2052.77,"body":"sweet butter cream inside. Now"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":2052.77,"endTime":2055.89,"body":"that may sound nice, but if"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":2052.77,"endTime":2055.89,"body":"you're listening in the UK, you"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":2055.89,"endTime":2058.41,"body":"know what I mean? I think I'm"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":2055.89,"endTime":2058.41,"body":"going to head to the kitchen and"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":2058.41,"endTime":2060.39,"body":"crack one of those babies open"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":2058.41,"endTime":2060.39,"body":"right now."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":2060.35,"endTime":2062.96,"body":"However you eat"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":2060.35,"endTime":2062.96,"body":"your biscuits. I hope you have a"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":2062.96,"endTime":2066.89,"body":"fantastic week and look forward"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":2062.96,"endTime":2066.89,"body":"to seeing you next time on"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":2066.89,"endTime":2069.29,"body":"school behaviour secrets. Bye"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":2066.89,"endTime":2069.29,"body":"for now."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":2069.53,"endTime":2069.92,"body":"Bye now"}]}