{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":0.3,"endTime":3.57,"body":"When children"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":0.3,"endTime":3.57,"body":"are saying, I can't do it, even"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":3.57,"endTime":7.44,"body":"when you know that they can do"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":3.57,"endTime":7.44,"body":"it, what's driving that is the"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":7.44,"endTime":11.13,"body":"anxiety underneath. So when"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":7.44,"endTime":11.13,"body":"they're saying I can't do it,"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":11.16,"endTime":15.66,"body":"what they're actually meaning"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":11.16,"endTime":15.66,"body":"is, I can't do it now, in the"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":15.66,"endTime":19.11,"body":"state that I'm in. So they're"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":15.66,"endTime":19.11,"body":"not in that learning brain state"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":19.14,"endTime":21.45,"body":"and able to engage that learning"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":19.14,"endTime":21.45,"body":"brain."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":21.54,"endTime":24.15,"body":"Welcome to the"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":21.54,"endTime":24.15,"body":"school behaviour secrets"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":24.15,"endTime":27.57,"body":"podcast. I'm your host, Simon"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":24.15,"endTime":27.57,"body":"Currigan. My co host is Emma"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":27.57,"endTime":31.17,"body":"Shackleton and we're obsessed"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":27.57,"endTime":31.17,"body":"with helping teachers, school"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":31.17,"endTime":34.11,"body":"leaders, parents, and of course,"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":31.17,"endTime":34.11,"body":"students when classroom"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":34.11,"endTime":37.02,"body":"behaviour gets in the way of"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":34.11,"endTime":37.02,"body":"success. We're going to share"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":37.02,"endTime":39.63,"body":"the tried and tested secrets to"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":37.02,"endTime":39.63,"body":"classroom management,"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":39.66,"endTime":43.17,"body":"behavioural Special Needs, whole"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":39.66,"endTime":43.17,"body":"school strategy and more all"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":43.17,"endTime":45.99,"body":"with the aim of helping your"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":43.17,"endTime":45.99,"body":"students reach their true"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":45.99,"endTime":49.41,"body":"potential. Plus, we'll be"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":45.99,"endTime":49.41,"body":"letting you eavesdrop on our"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":49.41,"endTime":52.56,"body":"conversations with thought"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":49.41,"endTime":52.56,"body":"leaders from around the world."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":52.68,"endTime":56.4,"body":"So you'll get to hear the latest"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":52.68,"endTime":56.4,"body":"evidence based strategies before"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":56.4,"endTime":60.63,"body":"anyone else. This is the school"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":56.4,"endTime":60.63,"body":"behaviour secrets podcast."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":61.17,"endTime":63.72,"body":"Hi, there. Welcome everybody. My"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":61.17,"endTime":63.72,"body":"name is Simon Currigan. And"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":63.72,"endTime":66.75,"body":"you're listening to the latest"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":63.72,"endTime":66.75,"body":"episode of school behaviour"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":66.75,"endTime":70.44,"body":"secrets. According to a recent"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":66.75,"endTime":70.44,"body":"Gallup poll, less than half of"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":70.44,"endTime":73.83,"body":"adults learned or did something"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":70.44,"endTime":73.83,"body":"interesting on the previous day."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":73.86,"endTime":76.41,"body":"And I'd like to feel that this"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":73.86,"endTime":76.41,"body":"podcast played his part in"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":76.41,"endTime":79.74,"body":"keeping those numbers low. I'm"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":76.41,"endTime":79.74,"body":"joined here by my favourite co"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":79.74,"endTime":81.3,"body":"host, Emma Shackleton. Hi, Emma."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":81.36,"endTime":82.32,"body":"Hi, Simon."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":82.35,"endTime":84.6,"body":"Hi, Emma. Before"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":82.35,"endTime":84.6,"body":"we start the show, I'd like to"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":84.63,"endTime":86.04,"body":"ask you a question."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":86.07,"endTime":88.53,"body":"So we're not"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":86.07,"endTime":88.53,"body":"locked into a repetitive"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":88.53,"endTime":91.2,"body":"ritualistic routine at all, then"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":88.53,"endTime":91.2,"body":"are we?"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":91.2,"endTime":94.29,"body":"I know it makes"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":91.2,"endTime":94.29,"body":"me feel secure. I'd like to ask"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":94.29,"endTime":98.16,"body":"you what are the most common"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":94.29,"endTime":98.16,"body":"reasons people put off doing"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":98.16,"endTime":101.01,"body":"hard things? Why do they"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":98.16,"endTime":101.01,"body":"procrastinate?"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":101.0,"endTime":103.94,"body":"That's a good"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":101.0,"endTime":103.94,"body":"question. And we all do this,"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":103.94,"endTime":107.99,"body":"don't we? I think it's human"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":103.94,"endTime":107.99,"body":"nature to put off hard stuff"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":107.99,"endTime":112.1,"body":"because it takes energy and"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":107.99,"endTime":112.1,"body":"effort. And we'd prefer to do"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":112.13,"endTime":116.36,"body":"easy stuff or things that we"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":112.13,"endTime":116.36,"body":"enjoy. Not many people naturally"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":116.36,"endTime":120.65,"body":"choose a hard task over an easy"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":116.36,"endTime":120.65,"body":"one. Do they? We're basically"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":120.65,"endTime":124.79,"body":"intrinsically lazy, conserving"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":120.65,"endTime":124.79,"body":"energy and all that. Go on then,"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":124.82,"endTime":125.78,"body":"what's the answer?"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":125.84,"endTime":128.21,"body":"Is that answer"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":125.84,"endTime":128.21,"body":"based on watching teenagers? No"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":128.21,"endTime":131.33,"body":"offence teenagers if you're"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":128.21,"endTime":131.33,"body":"listening. Well, according to"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":131.33,"endTime":134.75,"body":"this web survey, the top answers"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":131.33,"endTime":134.75,"body":"that came in were, they just"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":134.75,"endTime":136.55,"body":"didn't feel like doing the task"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":136.55,"endTime":136.61,"body":"Yeah"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":136.64,"endTime":137.93,"body":"Which is just"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":136.64,"endTime":137.93,"body":"kind of laziness, I guess."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":137.93,"endTime":138.23,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":138.29,"endTime":139.94,"body":"They weren't"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":138.29,"endTime":139.94,"body":"sure what to do. So we didn't"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":139.94,"endTime":142.58,"body":"have clarity about what they"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":139.94,"endTime":142.58,"body":"were supposed to do. They kind"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":142.58,"endTime":145.34,"body":"of put it off and then in equal"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":142.58,"endTime":145.34,"body":"third place. They felt like they"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":145.34,"endTime":148.25,"body":"had no time to do it, or they"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":145.34,"endTime":148.25,"body":"didn't perceive it as being"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":148.37,"endTime":149.03,"body":"urgent."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":149.09,"endTime":152.3,"body":"Ah, okay, that"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":149.09,"endTime":152.3,"body":"makes sense. So what's the link"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":152.3,"endTime":153.71,"body":"to this week's episode?"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":153.74,"endTime":155.54,"body":"So this week,"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":153.74,"endTime":155.54,"body":"we're going to look at the"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":155.54,"endTime":159.56,"body":"phenomenon of work refusal,"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":155.54,"endTime":159.56,"body":"we're going to look at what work"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":159.56,"endTime":162.56,"body":"refusal looks like in the"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":159.56,"endTime":162.56,"body":"classroom, why children might"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":162.56,"endTime":167.0,"body":"engage in work refusal and some"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":162.56,"endTime":167.0,"body":"practical strategies to use and"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":167.0,"endTime":170.69,"body":"address the underlying cause of"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":167.0,"endTime":170.69,"body":"that behaviour. So the behaviour"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":170.69,"endTime":173.45,"body":"goes away, and you don't have to"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":170.69,"endTime":173.45,"body":"deal with it in the classroom."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":173.45,"endTime":176.81,"body":"So proactive"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":173.45,"endTime":176.81,"body":"strategies rather than reactive"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":176.81,"endTime":177.38,"body":"ones."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":177.449,"endTime":180.479,"body":"Absolutely. It's"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":177.449,"endTime":180.479,"body":"better not to be in a situation"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":180.479,"endTime":183.599,"body":"where a child is refusing,"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":180.479,"endTime":183.599,"body":"rather than try and handle it"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":183.599,"endTime":184.379,"body":"while it's happening."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":184.409,"endTime":187.049,"body":"Perfect. But"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":184.409,"endTime":187.049,"body":"before that, I've got a quick"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":187.049,"endTime":190.229,"body":"favour to ask, as always,"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":187.049,"endTime":190.229,"body":"please, can you share this"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":190.229,"endTime":193.289,"body":"episode with three friends or"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":190.229,"endTime":193.289,"body":"colleagues that you think would"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":193.289,"endTime":197.039,"body":"find it useful? It's a bit like"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":193.289,"endTime":197.039,"body":"sharing an article on Facebook"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":197.039,"endTime":201.149,"body":"or Twitter, all you've got to do"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":197.039,"endTime":201.149,"body":"is open your podcast app and hit"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":201.149,"endTime":204.479,"body":"the share button and tell the"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":201.149,"endTime":204.479,"body":"app which of your contacts you'd"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":204.479,"endTime":208.109,"body":"like to send the episode to."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":204.479,"endTime":208.109,"body":"It's as easy as that and will"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":208.109,"endTime":210.719,"body":"take you as little as 30"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":208.109,"endTime":210.719,"body":"seconds."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":210.78,"endTime":213.84,"body":"So let's wait"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":210.78,"endTime":213.84,"body":"until nightfall set out a tray"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":213.84,"endTime":217.44,"body":"of delicious worms and meat"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":213.84,"endTime":217.44,"body":"scraps on the back lawn and wait"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":217.47,"endTime":220.98,"body":"with bated breath to greet the"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":217.47,"endTime":220.98,"body":"majestic badger we call"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":221.1,"endTime":222.0,"body":"behaviour."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":222.089,"endTime":225.119,"body":"Okay, let's get"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":222.089,"endTime":225.119,"body":"started then. So what do we"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":225.149,"endTime":231.389,"body":"actually mean by work refusal?"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":225.149,"endTime":231.389,"body":"Well work refusal is any time"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":231.569,"endTime":236.399,"body":"when you give a child a task,"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":231.569,"endTime":236.399,"body":"and they refuse to do it. So"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":236.399,"endTime":242.459,"body":"that refusal could be verbal, it"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":236.399,"endTime":242.459,"body":"could be flat out saying no"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":242.459,"endTime":246.329,"body":"saying I'm not doing it or"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":242.459,"endTime":246.329,"body":"worse, telling you that they're"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":246.329,"endTime":250.499,"body":"not going to do it. Or of"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":246.329,"endTime":250.499,"body":"course, it could be a physical"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":250.499,"endTime":254.429,"body":"indication that they're not"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":250.499,"endTime":254.429,"body":"going to complete the task. It"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":254.429,"endTime":257.849,"body":"might be things like putting"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":254.429,"endTime":257.849,"body":"their heads down on the desk,"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":257.849,"endTime":260.999,"body":"pushing their chair back,"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":257.849,"endTime":260.999,"body":"closing down their body"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":260.999,"endTime":265.589,"body":"language, walking out of class,"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":260.999,"endTime":265.589,"body":"perhaps or even refusing to come"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":265.589,"endTime":268.739,"body":"into class in the first place"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":265.589,"endTime":268.739,"body":"because they know that the work"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":268.739,"endTime":270.239,"body":"is going to be waiting for them."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":270.27,"endTime":273.24,"body":"So that's flat"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":270.27,"endTime":273.24,"body":"out refusal, but you might also"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":273.24,"endTime":275.52,"body":"see task avoidance, which is"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":273.24,"endTime":275.52,"body":"slightly more passive, but kind"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":275.52,"endTime":276.6,"body":"of has the same outcome, the"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":275.52,"endTime":276.6,"body":"outcome of avoiding doing the"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":276.6,"endTime":280.98,"body":"task in the first place. So when"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":276.6,"endTime":280.98,"body":"you think about what this might"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":281.22,"endTime":286.35,"body":"look like, it might be kids that"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":281.22,"endTime":286.35,"body":"endlessly sharpen pencils or"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":286.35,"endTime":290.37,"body":"find the right pen it takes them"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":286.35,"endTime":290.37,"body":"forever to get prepared and get"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":290.37,"endTime":293.16,"body":"set up for the task because"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":290.37,"endTime":293.16,"body":"they're constantly putting that"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":293.16,"endTime":297.42,"body":"task of putting it back. They"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":293.16,"endTime":297.42,"body":"might spend a long time walking"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":297.42,"endTime":300.69,"body":"around the classroom, perhaps"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":297.42,"endTime":300.69,"body":"talking to other children. And"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":300.69,"endTime":304.89,"body":"the result is a complete very"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":300.69,"endTime":304.89,"body":"little work. And these are both"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":304.89,"endTime":308.82,"body":"different forms, I guess of work"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":304.89,"endTime":308.82,"body":"refusal, one is more active and"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":308.82,"endTime":312.09,"body":"one is more passive. And as a"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":308.82,"endTime":312.09,"body":"teacher in the classroom, this"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":312.09,"endTime":314.28,"body":"can be really frustrating"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":312.09,"endTime":314.28,"body":"because often these kids have"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":314.28,"endTime":317.16,"body":"real potential, you know,"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":314.28,"endTime":317.16,"body":"they're not achieving their best"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":317.16,"endTime":319.47,"body":"because they're not engaging"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":317.16,"endTime":319.47,"body":"with the work. And if we can get"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":319.47,"endTime":323.01,"body":"them to engage with their work,"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":319.47,"endTime":323.01,"body":"then they can start to make"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":323.01,"endTime":325.83,"body":"academic progress. But without"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":323.01,"endTime":325.83,"body":"them sort of getting themselves"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":325.83,"endTime":328.77,"body":"down into the task and sort of"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":325.83,"endTime":328.77,"body":"focusing on applying themselves,"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":328.77,"endTime":331.29,"body":"we never see that. And the"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":328.77,"endTime":331.29,"body":"result is often that you need to"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":331.29,"endTime":334.23,"body":"give the child constant"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":331.29,"endTime":334.23,"body":"attention or reminders or"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":334.23,"endTime":337.14,"body":"prompts and you have to sit next"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":334.23,"endTime":337.14,"body":"to them and support them with"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":337.17,"endTime":340.02,"body":"each part of the task, you're"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":337.17,"endTime":340.02,"body":"leading them toe by toe through"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":340.02,"endTime":343.11,"body":"the task and giving them"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":340.02,"endTime":343.11,"body":"constant flow of reassurance and"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":343.11,"endTime":345.54,"body":"reminders. And as a teacher,"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":343.11,"endTime":345.54,"body":"that can be really frustrating,"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":345.54,"endTime":348.9,"body":"because actually, overtime is a"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":345.54,"endTime":348.9,"body":"time sink. And it's drawing your"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":348.9,"endTime":350.94,"body":"attention away from other"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":348.9,"endTime":350.94,"body":"children in the class who are"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":350.97,"endTime":352.65,"body":"equally deserving of support."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":352.72,"endTime":354.67,"body":"I think"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":352.72,"endTime":354.67,"body":"frustration is the key word"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":354.67,"endTime":358.48,"body":"there is in it, particularly"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":354.67,"endTime":358.48,"body":"when a child is refusing to do a"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":358.48,"endTime":363.01,"body":"task because it you absolutely"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":358.48,"endTime":363.01,"body":"know that they can do. So maybe"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":363.01,"endTime":366.58,"body":"it was something that yesterday,"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":363.01,"endTime":366.58,"body":"they did it without a problem."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":366.79,"endTime":371.08,"body":"But for whatever reason, today,"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":366.79,"endTime":371.08,"body":"that very same task that you've"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":371.08,"endTime":375.16,"body":"seen them do. They're now"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":371.08,"endTime":375.16,"body":"refusing, and we all look for"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":375.16,"endTime":378.34,"body":"the logic and we all look for,"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":375.16,"endTime":378.34,"body":"you know the reason behind and"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":378.34,"endTime":381.67,"body":"the why. And it can be really"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":378.34,"endTime":381.67,"body":"frustrating when we can't work"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":381.67,"endTime":384.97,"body":"out what that reason is. But"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":381.67,"endTime":384.97,"body":"that is where we've got to"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":384.97,"endTime":389.11,"body":"start, we've got to start by"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":384.97,"endTime":389.11,"body":"being curious, we've got to look"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":389.11,"endTime":392.68,"body":"for the deeper cause we've got"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":389.11,"endTime":392.68,"body":"to scratch the surface and look"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":392.68,"endTime":397.18,"body":"at what is going on underneath."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":392.68,"endTime":397.18,"body":"That means that in this moment,"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":397.24,"endTime":401.44,"body":"even if it's a task that we know"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":397.24,"endTime":401.44,"body":"the child can do in this moment,"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":401.44,"endTime":405.01,"body":"they are refusing to do that."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":401.44,"endTime":405.01,"body":"And of course, we're assuming"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":405.01,"endTime":408.43,"body":"that you've covered the basic"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":405.01,"endTime":408.43,"body":"techniques, like making sure"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":408.43,"endTime":411.97,"body":"that the work is pitched"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":408.43,"endTime":411.97,"body":"properly, you've tried having a"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":411.97,"endTime":415.03,"body":"little quiet conversation with"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":411.97,"endTime":415.03,"body":"them doing a little bit of"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":415.03,"endTime":419.47,"body":"coaching or coaxing, you've"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":415.03,"endTime":419.47,"body":"tried maybe offering rewards or"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":419.47,"endTime":422.95,"body":"encouragement, particularly with"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":419.47,"endTime":422.95,"body":"younger children, and none of"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":422.95,"endTime":427.72,"body":"this has worked. So the work"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":422.95,"endTime":427.72,"body":"refusal is the result of a"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":427.72,"endTime":432.25,"body":"deeper cause. So the refusal is"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":427.72,"endTime":432.25,"body":"what we see. But we need to dig"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":432.25,"endTime":437.41,"body":"into why the child is refusing"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":432.25,"endTime":437.41,"body":"what is driving that behaviour,"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":437.44,"endTime":441.76,"body":"if we can deal with the root"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":437.44,"endTime":441.76,"body":"cause, not the visible behaviour"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":441.76,"endTime":444.55,"body":"on the surface, the problem"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":441.76,"endTime":444.55,"body":"behaviour, which in this case,"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":444.55,"endTime":448.24,"body":"his work avoidance, that work"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":444.55,"endTime":448.24,"body":"avoidance goes away if we can"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":448.24,"endTime":453.52,"body":"deal with the root cause. And in"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":448.24,"endTime":453.52,"body":"most cases, work refusal comes"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":453.55,"endTime":455.2,"body":"from anxiety."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":455.24,"endTime":457.61,"body":"And that anxiety"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":455.24,"endTime":457.61,"body":"can be in two different"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":457.61,"endTime":460.7,"body":"directions. And both of those"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":457.61,"endTime":460.7,"body":"directions end up with the same"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":460.7,"endTime":462.95,"body":"kind of behaviour. So let me"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":460.7,"endTime":462.95,"body":"explain what I mean by that and"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":462.95,"endTime":466.16,"body":"sort of unpack it. The first"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":462.95,"endTime":466.16,"body":"kind of anxiety can be about the"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":466.16,"endTime":470.93,"body":"child is worried about making a"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":466.16,"endTime":470.93,"body":"mistake. So that running from"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":471.17,"endTime":474.32,"body":"the anxiety of mistake making."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":471.17,"endTime":474.32,"body":"And this is the simplest kind of"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":474.32,"endTime":476.33,"body":"anxiety to understand,"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":474.32,"endTime":476.33,"body":"essentially, they're worried"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":476.36,"endTime":479.66,"body":"about getting the work wrong,"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":476.36,"endTime":479.66,"body":"making mistakes, so they don't"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":479.69,"endTime":484.46,"body":"dare try. And this is really"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":479.69,"endTime":484.46,"body":"common in pupils who have low"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":484.46,"endTime":488.42,"body":"self esteem issues, or have"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":484.46,"endTime":488.42,"body":"learning difficulties or have"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":488.42,"endTime":491.0,"body":"low resilience. So when it says"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":488.42,"endTime":491.0,"body":"they're looking at a piece of"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":491.0,"endTime":493.25,"body":"work, and they're thinking, you"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":491.0,"endTime":493.25,"body":"know, I'm going to fail at this"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":493.25,"endTime":496.07,"body":"piece of work. And what they"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":493.25,"endTime":496.07,"body":"kind of do is they reject the"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":496.07,"endTime":500.12,"body":"work before it rejects them,"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":496.07,"endTime":500.12,"body":"because they find it hard to"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":500.12,"endTime":503.51,"body":"cope with potentially failing at"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":500.12,"endTime":503.51,"body":"something we can give them"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":503.51,"endTime":506.06,"body":"speeches about, you know, making"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":503.51,"endTime":506.06,"body":"mistakes is all part of the"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":506.06,"endTime":509.33,"body":"process of learning. But for"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":506.06,"endTime":509.33,"body":"them, they feel that failure at"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":509.33,"endTime":513.11,"body":"a deep emotional level. And they"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":509.33,"endTime":513.11,"body":"just don't want to risk"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":513.11,"endTime":516.98,"body":"experiencing that they might"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":513.11,"endTime":516.98,"body":"feel rejected, they might feel"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":516.98,"endTime":520.61,"body":"that not being able to complete"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":516.98,"endTime":520.61,"body":"the work is more evidence that"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":520.61,"endTime":524.93,"body":"they're a failure. Some kids"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":520.61,"endTime":524.93,"body":"with trauma, or ACEs, they have"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":524.93,"endTime":527.78,"body":"this deep seated underlying"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":524.93,"endTime":527.78,"body":"belief that they are a bad"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":527.78,"endTime":530.6,"body":"person who's unworthy of love,"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":527.78,"endTime":530.6,"body":"they might not be able to put"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":530.6,"endTime":533.27,"body":"that into words, but they'll"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":530.6,"endTime":533.27,"body":"feel it at an emotional level."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":533.33,"endTime":536.51,"body":"And when we put a piece of work"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":533.33,"endTime":536.51,"body":"in front of them that might risk"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":536.51,"endTime":539.93,"body":"them being exposed to failure or"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":536.51,"endTime":539.93,"body":"making the mistakes or not"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":539.93,"endTime":542.81,"body":"getting the work right, then"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":539.93,"endTime":542.81,"body":"actually, they'll be looking at"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":542.81,"endTime":545.06,"body":"that thinking, well, that's"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":542.81,"endTime":545.06,"body":"evidence that I'm a bad person."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":545.09,"endTime":547.37,"body":"And I don't want to be put in"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":545.09,"endTime":547.37,"body":"that situation. So what I'm"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":547.37,"endTime":550.97,"body":"going to do is I'm going to sort"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":547.37,"endTime":550.97,"body":"of run away from that situation,"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":550.97,"endTime":553.49,"body":"I'm going to engage in"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":550.97,"endTime":553.49,"body":"behaviours, where I don't have"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":553.49,"endTime":555.41,"body":"to be in that situation."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":555.48,"endTime":559.86,"body":"Now at the other end that's"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":555.48,"endTime":559.86,"body":"moving away from failure. But"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":559.89,"endTime":563.7,"body":"the child might also be anxious"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":559.89,"endTime":563.7,"body":"that the work isn't perfect. So"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":563.73,"endTime":565.53,"body":"in the one instance, we've got"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":563.73,"endTime":565.53,"body":"people running away from"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":565.53,"endTime":567.84,"body":"failure. On the other side,"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":565.53,"endTime":567.84,"body":"you've got people running"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":567.84,"endTime":571.74,"body":"towards perfection kids who want"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":567.84,"endTime":571.74,"body":"their work to be absolutely"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":571.74,"endTime":574.95,"body":"perfect. And if their work isn't"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":571.74,"endTime":574.95,"body":"perfect, if they know they can't"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":574.95,"endTime":578.43,"body":"get it 100% Correct. They'd"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":574.95,"endTime":578.43,"body":"rather not commit pencil to"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":578.43,"endTime":581.7,"body":"paper in the first place. And"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":578.43,"endTime":581.7,"body":"this is really really common in"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":581.7,"endTime":586.26,"body":"kids with autism, who have ASC"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":581.7,"endTime":586.26,"body":"now you see the same kind of"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":586.26,"endTime":589.44,"body":"behaviours but wrong causes. One"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":586.26,"endTime":589.44,"body":"is running away from something"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":589.47,"endTime":591.99,"body":"the other child is running"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":589.47,"endTime":591.99,"body":"towards something and not"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":591.99,"endTime":594.15,"body":"getting in the race if they"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":591.99,"endTime":594.15,"body":"can't have the perfection that"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":594.15,"endTime":596.64,"body":"they're seeking. In both cases,"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":594.15,"endTime":596.64,"body":"the kids are putting themselves"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":596.64,"endTime":599.73,"body":"in a situation where they don't"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":596.64,"endTime":599.73,"body":"have to face that fear face that"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":599.73,"endTime":603.93,"body":"danger. So what they often do is"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":599.73,"endTime":603.93,"body":"they engage in behaviours like"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":603.93,"endTime":608.19,"body":"refusal or disruption, that"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":603.93,"endTime":608.19,"body":"increases their status in the"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":608.19,"endTime":611.7,"body":"group. So if they start messing"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":608.19,"endTime":611.7,"body":"around with boys anyway, in the"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":611.7,"endTime":614.13,"body":"class, they'll sort of look at"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":611.7,"endTime":614.13,"body":"that. And that will move up"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":614.13,"endTime":616.41,"body":"their status in the group,"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":614.13,"endTime":616.41,"body":"because boys look up to that"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":616.41,"endTime":619.32,"body":"kind of thing, maybe to some"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":616.41,"endTime":619.32,"body":"extent, rather than being in a"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":619.32,"endTime":623.55,"body":"situation that exposes their"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":619.32,"endTime":623.55,"body":"weaknesses, if they have"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":623.55,"endTime":626.04,"body":"difficulty with learning, well,"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":623.55,"endTime":626.04,"body":"where's the social status in"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":626.04,"endTime":628.62,"body":"that? You know. If they get"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":626.04,"endTime":628.62,"body":"really stressed and anxious"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":628.62,"endTime":631.65,"body":"about their work being perfect,"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":628.62,"endTime":631.65,"body":"where's the social status? And"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":631.65,"endTime":634.56,"body":"that those are experiences that"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":631.65,"endTime":634.56,"body":"are going to move them down in"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":634.56,"endTime":637.26,"body":"terms of their social status. So"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":634.56,"endTime":637.26,"body":"these kinds of disruptive"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":637.26,"endTime":639.69,"body":"behaviours? Well, there's a"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":637.26,"endTime":639.69,"body":"certain group of boys that we'll"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":639.69,"endTime":642.21,"body":"look up to that that's going to"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":639.69,"endTime":642.21,"body":"move them up, instead of being"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":642.36,"endTime":644.43,"body":"moved down in the sort of social"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":642.36,"endTime":644.43,"body":"hierarchy."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":644.46,"endTime":646.68,"body":"Yeah, I think"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":644.46,"endTime":646.68,"body":"it's about not wanting to be"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":646.68,"endTime":649.98,"body":"exposed and not wanting to be"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":646.68,"endTime":649.98,"body":"vulnerable, isn't it. So kids"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":649.98,"endTime":654.57,"body":"learn lots of little tricks to"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":649.98,"endTime":654.57,"body":"cover over the fact that the"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":654.57,"endTime":658.62,"body":"work they feel is too difficult."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":654.57,"endTime":658.62,"body":"And one thing I've learned as"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":658.62,"endTime":662.4,"body":"well, when children are saying,"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":658.62,"endTime":662.4,"body":"I can't do it, even when you"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":662.4,"endTime":666.81,"body":"know that they can do it. What's"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":662.4,"endTime":666.81,"body":"driving that, as we've said, is"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":666.81,"endTime":670.65,"body":"the anxiety underneath. So when"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":666.81,"endTime":670.65,"body":"they're saying I can't do it,"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":670.68,"endTime":675.18,"body":"what they're actually meaning"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":670.68,"endTime":675.18,"body":"is, I can't do it now in the"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":675.18,"endTime":678.15,"body":"state that I'm in. So they're"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":675.18,"endTime":678.15,"body":"not in that learning brain"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":678.15,"endTime":681.42,"body":"state. They're not calm and"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":678.15,"endTime":681.42,"body":"relaxed and feeling safe and"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":681.45,"endTime":684.63,"body":"able to engage that learning"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":681.45,"endTime":684.63,"body":"brain. So the behaviours that"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":684.63,"endTime":689.31,"body":"come out, are similar, but there"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":684.63,"endTime":689.31,"body":"are opposite motivators, if you"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":689.31,"endTime":693.99,"body":"like one away from making the"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":689.31,"endTime":693.99,"body":"mistake, and one towards wanting"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":693.99,"endTime":698.31,"body":"it to be perfect and not being"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":693.99,"endTime":698.31,"body":"able to accept anything less. So"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":698.31,"endTime":702.03,"body":"you do see children who get very"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":698.31,"endTime":702.03,"body":"upset when they make a mistake,"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":702.21,"endTime":705.0,"body":"the teacher might say, well just"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":702.21,"endTime":705.0,"body":"put a line through it with your"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":705.0,"endTime":708.75,"body":"pencil, or they might allow them"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":705.0,"endTime":708.75,"body":"to use the rubber, and the child"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":708.75,"endTime":712.23,"body":"gets very, very upset or"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":708.75,"endTime":712.23,"body":"overwhelmed, maybe they screw it"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":712.23,"endTime":715.98,"body":"up or scribble on it or push it"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":712.23,"endTime":715.98,"body":"away, because they really can't"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":715.98,"endTime":719.67,"body":"cope with the fact that it isn't"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":715.98,"endTime":719.67,"body":"absolutely perfect in their"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":719.67,"endTime":723.96,"body":"eyes. So it's really important,"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":719.67,"endTime":723.96,"body":"then that we dig into the causes"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":724.2,"endTime":728.37,"body":"to make sure that we can then"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":724.2,"endTime":728.37,"body":"match up the right solutions. If"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":728.37,"endTime":732.96,"body":"we approach all task avoidance"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":728.37,"endTime":732.96,"body":"and work refusal, in the same"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":732.96,"endTime":736.56,"body":"way, we might end up using the"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":732.96,"endTime":736.56,"body":"wrong strategies for the wrong"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":736.56,"endTime":737.19,"body":"cause."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":737.0,"endTime":738.62,"body":"Yeah, I think"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":737.0,"endTime":738.62,"body":"one thing I've noticed over the"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":738.62,"endTime":740.72,"body":"years as well, that there are"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":738.62,"endTime":740.72,"body":"three things that have to be in"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":740.72,"endTime":743.63,"body":"place for kids to be successful"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":740.72,"endTime":743.63,"body":"in the classroom. The first is"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":743.66,"endTime":746.36,"body":"they have to be sort of happy"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":743.66,"endTime":746.36,"body":"and secure. The second is they"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":746.36,"endTime":748.55,"body":"have to feel confident with the"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":746.36,"endTime":748.55,"body":"work, they have to know what"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":748.55,"endTime":751.43,"body":"they're doing. And the third is"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":748.55,"endTime":751.43,"body":"they have to be emotionally"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":751.43,"endTime":754.01,"body":"calm. And it's like a three"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":751.43,"endTime":754.01,"body":"legged stool. And if any one of"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":754.01,"endTime":756.8,"body":"those legs are missing, then you"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":754.01,"endTime":756.8,"body":"get problems in the classroom"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":756.8,"endTime":758.99,"body":"with behaviour and avoidance."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":756.8,"endTime":758.99,"body":"And in this case, what we're"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":758.99,"endTime":761.48,"body":"doing is we're taking away two"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":758.99,"endTime":761.48,"body":"of those legs. So let's think"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":761.48,"endTime":764.51,"body":"about supporting kids who are"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":761.48,"endTime":764.51,"body":"moving away from failure, kids"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":764.51,"endTime":767.15,"body":"with self esteem or low"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":764.51,"endTime":767.15,"body":"resilience issues, there was a"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":767.24,"endTime":770.66,"body":"school of thinking for a long"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":767.24,"endTime":770.66,"body":"time I've been guilty of this is"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":770.66,"endTime":773.84,"body":"a very seductive idea that's"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":770.66,"endTime":773.84,"body":"presented to us in the media,"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":774.14,"endTime":777.26,"body":"That if you have someone who's"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":774.14,"endTime":777.26,"body":"having difficulty, who has low"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":777.26,"endTime":780.26,"body":"self esteem, low confidence, the"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":777.26,"endTime":780.26,"body":"way we get them past that"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":780.26,"endTime":783.17,"body":"barrier to do difficult things"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":780.26,"endTime":783.17,"body":"is to give them some sort of"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":783.2,"endTime":786.5,"body":"speech that puts a fire in their"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":783.2,"endTime":786.5,"body":"belly. So you'll often see in"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":786.5,"endTime":790.01,"body":"films, there's a coach or a"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":786.5,"endTime":790.01,"body":"mentor. And there's the hero who"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":790.01,"endTime":792.68,"body":"is like they haven't found their"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":790.01,"endTime":792.68,"body":"confidence yet, there'll be a"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":792.68,"endTime":796.1,"body":"montage or training sequence"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":792.68,"endTime":796.1,"body":"with a mentor built them up with"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":796.1,"endTime":798.83,"body":"speeches, and they suddenly"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":796.1,"endTime":798.83,"body":"become able to do things they"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":798.83,"endTime":801.56,"body":"weren't able to do in the past."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":798.83,"endTime":801.56,"body":"That's a really seductive idea."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":801.59,"endTime":804.38,"body":"And it turns out, it's complete"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":801.59,"endTime":804.38,"body":"nonsense. What the research"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":804.38,"endTime":808.19,"body":"shows is, we don't start with"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":804.38,"endTime":808.19,"body":"confidence. And that encourages"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":808.19,"endTime":811.76,"body":"us to take action, actually,"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":808.19,"endTime":811.76,"body":"what improves confidence is"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":811.76,"endTime":816.41,"body":"taking action first, that builds"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":811.76,"endTime":816.41,"body":"our confidence, which encourages"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":816.41,"endTime":819.38,"body":"us to take risks and do more"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":816.41,"endTime":819.38,"body":"difficult things. And when we"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":819.38,"endTime":822.44,"body":"achieve those that increases our"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":819.38,"endTime":822.44,"body":"confidence again, and that"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":822.44,"endTime":825.17,"body":"encourages us to try even more"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":822.44,"endTime":825.17,"body":"difficult things. It's called"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":825.17,"endTime":827.21,"body":"the confidence competence loop."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":827.0,"endTime":830.03,"body":"So what does that mean in"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":827.0,"endTime":830.03,"body":"school? Well, that means what"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":830.03,"endTime":832.79,"body":"we're not going to have success"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":830.03,"endTime":832.79,"body":"with is telling the child that"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":832.79,"endTime":835.7,"body":"they've managed a piece of work"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":832.79,"endTime":835.7,"body":"like this in the past, or they"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":835.7,"endTime":838.64,"body":"can do it, they just have to"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":835.7,"endTime":838.64,"body":"believe in themselves. What we"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":838.64,"endTime":841.85,"body":"need to do is get them working"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":838.64,"endTime":841.85,"body":"on something today that they"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":841.88,"endTime":844.88,"body":"feel confident doing already."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":841.88,"endTime":844.88,"body":"Now this might be a piece of"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":844.88,"endTime":848.69,"body":"work that's well within their"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":844.88,"endTime":848.69,"body":"zone of competence. But there is"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":848.69,"endTime":853.16,"body":"a value on being on task, there"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":848.69,"endTime":853.16,"body":"is a value on working"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":853.16,"endTime":857.57,"body":"independently, there is value on"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":853.16,"endTime":857.57,"body":"completing work and creating the"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":857.57,"endTime":860.96,"body":"sense of pride and achievement"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":857.57,"endTime":860.96,"body":"even if it's things you can do"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":860.99,"endTime":864.74,"body":"already. So the way we're going"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":860.99,"endTime":864.74,"body":"to help get them past these"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":864.74,"endTime":869.69,"body":"worry issues is by getting them"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":864.74,"endTime":869.69,"body":"working on something that action"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":869.69,"endTime":873.26,"body":"taking the research shows will"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":869.69,"endTime":873.26,"body":"increase their confidence. So"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":873.29,"endTime":876.23,"body":"over time, then we can present a"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":873.29,"endTime":876.23,"body":"slightly more difficult things."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":876.26,"endTime":879.08,"body":"We get them to experience"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":876.26,"endTime":879.08,"body":"success with that, that"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":879.08,"endTime":882.89,"body":"increases their confidence. So"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":879.08,"endTime":882.89,"body":"getting past the self esteem and"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":882.89,"endTime":886.07,"body":"resilience issues is about"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":882.89,"endTime":886.07,"body":"getting them to take action"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":886.1,"endTime":889.25,"body":"rather than firing them up with"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":886.1,"endTime":889.25,"body":"confidence. Another point to"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":889.25,"endTime":890.93,"body":"make here that I think is really"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":889.25,"endTime":890.93,"body":"worthwhile. It's about"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":890.93,"endTime":893.84,"body":"differentiation, how we pitch"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":890.93,"endTime":893.84,"body":"the work. Sometimes I speak to"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":893.84,"endTime":896.36,"body":"teachers and they say I've"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":893.84,"endTime":896.36,"body":"looked at the child assessments."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":896.39,"endTime":899.21,"body":"I've looked at what they've been"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":896.39,"endTime":899.21,"body":"able to achieve in the past and"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":899.21,"endTime":902.54,"body":"the work on the table is"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":899.21,"endTime":902.54,"body":"accurately differentiated for"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":902.54,"endTime":906.38,"body":"them. Now that may be true, but"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":902.54,"endTime":906.38,"body":"that is different from the child"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":906.38,"endTime":910.13,"body":"perceiving, they can complete"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":906.38,"endTime":910.13,"body":"and do the work. So when we're"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":910.13,"endTime":913.25,"body":"looking at improving confidence"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":910.13,"endTime":913.25,"body":"and getting them to take action,"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":913.25,"endTime":917.24,"body":"we have to be pitching the work"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":913.25,"endTime":917.24,"body":"not at a level that is accurate"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":917.24,"endTime":919.94,"body":"in terms of that academic"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":917.24,"endTime":919.94,"body":"ability, that we might have to"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":919.97,"endTime":922.94,"body":"pitch the work slightly lower"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":919.97,"endTime":922.94,"body":"than that, that's within the"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":922.94,"endTime":925.94,"body":"child's perception of what"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":922.94,"endTime":925.94,"body":"they're able to complete and be"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":925.94,"endTime":928.88,"body":"successful with. And then over"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":925.94,"endTime":928.88,"body":"time, as we've got them taking"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":928.88,"endTime":931.64,"body":"action, we can gradually"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":928.88,"endTime":931.64,"body":"increase the difficulty of the"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":931.64,"endTime":931.94,"body":"work."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":931.96,"endTime":934.84,"body":"So what do we"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":931.96,"endTime":934.84,"body":"do then about those children who"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":934.87,"endTime":940.15,"body":"are moving towards perfection"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":934.87,"endTime":940.15,"body":"and their anxieties around"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":940.18,"endTime":945.37,"body":"whatever they produce having to"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":940.18,"endTime":945.37,"body":"be absolutely 100% accurate? And"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":945.37,"endTime":949.42,"body":"again, perfection is a"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":945.37,"endTime":949.42,"body":"perception, isn't it, what the"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":949.42,"endTime":952.45,"body":"teacher might think is perfect,"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":949.42,"endTime":952.45,"body":"and what the child might think"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":952.45,"endTime":955.18,"body":"is perfect, could be two really"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":952.45,"endTime":955.18,"body":"different things. So that's"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":955.18,"endTime":960.61,"body":"interesting to note as well. But"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":955.18,"endTime":960.61,"body":"when children are very worried"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":960.61,"endTime":963.46,"body":"or anxious about starting a"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":960.61,"endTime":963.46,"body":"piece of work, because they"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":963.46,"endTime":966.52,"body":"don't think they can finish it"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":963.46,"endTime":966.52,"body":"to what they perceive to be"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":966.52,"endTime":971.23,"body":"perfect, what they're actually"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":966.52,"endTime":971.23,"body":"doing there is overestimating"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":971.23,"endTime":976.3,"body":"the consequences of what will"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":971.23,"endTime":976.3,"body":"happen if the work doesn't turn"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":976.3,"endTime":981.43,"body":"out perfect. So they're kind of"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":976.3,"endTime":981.43,"body":"catastrophizing, the outcome of"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":981.43,"endTime":986.44,"body":"that piece of work not being"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":981.43,"endTime":986.44,"body":"absolutely spot on. Because"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":986.44,"endTime":990.61,"body":"really what is going to happen"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":986.44,"endTime":990.61,"body":"if the work isn't absolutely"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":990.61,"endTime":994.12,"body":"perfect? The world isn't going"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":990.61,"endTime":994.12,"body":"to end, it's not going to stop"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":994.12,"endTime":999.49,"body":"turning. But for that child, it"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":994.12,"endTime":999.49,"body":"feels like a really, really big"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":999.49,"endTime":1003.18,"body":"deal. Or it could be that they"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":999.49,"endTime":1003.18,"body":"are underestimating their"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1003.18,"endTime":1007.5,"body":"ability to cope with the"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1003.18,"endTime":1007.5,"body":"feelings that they get if the"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1007.5,"endTime":1011.82,"body":"work isn't perfect, that feeling"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1007.5,"endTime":1011.82,"body":"of disappointment or feeling of"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1011.82,"endTime":1014.91,"body":"letting other people down,"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1011.82,"endTime":1014.91,"body":"letting themselves down,"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1015.12,"endTime":1020.13,"body":"embarrassment, humiliation, they"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1015.12,"endTime":1020.13,"body":"are all normal, healthy feelings"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1020.13,"endTime":1023.82,"body":"that people have some times but"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1020.13,"endTime":1023.82,"body":"some children feel very"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1023.82,"endTime":1026.94,"body":"vulnerable. And they would"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1023.82,"endTime":1026.94,"body":"rather avoid having to"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1026.94,"endTime":1031.83,"body":"experience those uncomfortable"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1026.94,"endTime":1031.83,"body":"feelings by work refusal or task"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1031.83,"endTime":1036.18,"body":"avoidance in the first place. So"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1031.83,"endTime":1036.18,"body":"we need to use questions to help"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1036.18,"endTime":1040.8,"body":"promote more realistic thinking"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1036.18,"endTime":1040.8,"body":"about the work. So one really"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1040.8,"endTime":1046.5,"body":"good strategy here is to ask, if"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1040.8,"endTime":1046.5,"body":"you were to get this work wrong,"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1046.65,"endTime":1050.91,"body":"how would you cope? What that"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1046.65,"endTime":1050.91,"body":"question does is prompts the"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1050.91,"endTime":1055.47,"body":"child to accept the possibility"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1050.91,"endTime":1055.47,"body":"that the child is concerned"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1055.47,"endTime":1059.46,"body":"about but opens up a"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1055.47,"endTime":1059.46,"body":"conversation about it not being"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1059.46,"endTime":1063.66,"body":"the end of the world. So yes, it"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1059.46,"endTime":1063.66,"body":"is likely that the work might"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1063.66,"endTime":1069.66,"body":"not be 100%. Correct. Or 100%"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1063.66,"endTime":1069.66,"body":"Perfect. And how then are you"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1069.66,"endTime":1073.17,"body":"going to handle that? And this"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1069.66,"endTime":1073.17,"body":"is like coaching really through"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1073.17,"endTime":1076.47,"body":"those difficult feelings? Isn't"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1073.17,"endTime":1076.47,"body":"it? If the work isn't perfect?"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1076.5,"endTime":1080.46,"body":"Or if you don't feel like it's"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1076.5,"endTime":1080.46,"body":"perfect when you finished it."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1080.49,"endTime":1084.51,"body":"What are you going to do to"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1080.49,"endTime":1084.51,"body":"manage those strong emotions"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1084.51,"endTime":1088.08,"body":"that will be evoked? Because"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1084.51,"endTime":1088.08,"body":"it's not the end of the world."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1088.11,"endTime":1091.56,"body":"Another good thing to get things"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1088.11,"endTime":1091.56,"body":"into perspective is thinking,"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1091.59,"endTime":1095.46,"body":"you know, in the moment, it"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1091.59,"endTime":1095.46,"body":"feels like the end of the world."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1095.58,"endTime":1100.29,"body":"But another good question is,"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1095.58,"endTime":1100.29,"body":"will this matter next week? Will"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1100.29,"endTime":1105.63,"body":"this matter In three weeks? will"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1100.29,"endTime":1105.63,"body":"this matter in a year's time?"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1105.66,"endTime":1110.31,"body":"Will this matter in five years"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1105.66,"endTime":1110.31,"body":"time? Usually the answer is no."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1110.37,"endTime":1114.24,"body":"And helping the child to get"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1110.37,"endTime":1114.24,"body":"perspective might help them to"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1114.24,"endTime":1119.13,"body":"be able to reduce their fear of"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1114.24,"endTime":1119.13,"body":"making mistakes, and be more"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1119.13,"endTime":1122.46,"body":"open to having a go at the work"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1119.13,"endTime":1122.46,"body":"and recognising that everybody"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1122.46,"endTime":1124.53,"body":"does make mistakes sometime."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1124.57,"endTime":1126.43,"body":"Another way you"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1124.57,"endTime":1126.43,"body":"can explore this with children"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1126.43,"endTime":1130.0,"body":"who are worried about"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1126.43,"endTime":1130.0,"body":"perfectionism is exploring"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1130.0,"endTime":1133.39,"body":"having them make deliberate"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1130.0,"endTime":1133.39,"body":"mistakes with their work. So"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1133.39,"endTime":1135.46,"body":"what you do is you get an"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1133.39,"endTime":1135.46,"body":"anxiety scale, which is just a"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1135.46,"endTime":1138.43,"body":"scale from one to 10, like a"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1135.46,"endTime":1138.43,"body":"number line where 10 means that"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1138.43,"endTime":1141.58,"body":"they're very, very anxious,"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1138.43,"endTime":1141.58,"body":"very, very worried one means"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1141.58,"endTime":1144.04,"body":"that they don't feel worried at"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1141.58,"endTime":1144.04,"body":"all. They're perfectly calm."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1144.04,"endTime":1146.68,"body":"Five's kind of in the middle,"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1144.04,"endTime":1146.68,"body":"and you get them to predict how"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1146.68,"endTime":1150.28,"body":"making a deliberate mistake with"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1146.68,"endTime":1150.28,"body":"their work a mistake that they"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1150.28,"endTime":1153.49,"body":"are perfectly in control of that"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1150.28,"endTime":1153.49,"body":"they're choosing when they make"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1153.49,"endTime":1156.04,"body":"it they're choosing how they"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1153.49,"endTime":1156.04,"body":"made that mistake. How will that"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1156.04,"endTime":1159.19,"body":"make them feel when they do it?"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1156.04,"endTime":1159.19,"body":"When they engage with the works,"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1159.19,"endTime":1160.69,"body":"they're going to do a piece of"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1159.19,"endTime":1160.69,"body":"work at some point, they're"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1160.69,"endTime":1164.02,"body":"going to make a deliberate"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1160.69,"endTime":1164.02,"body":"mistake. How will you feel when"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1164.02,"endTime":1166.63,"body":"you make that mistake, or when"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1164.02,"endTime":1166.63,"body":"you hand in the work? And then"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1166.63,"endTime":1168.7,"body":"they go away and complete the"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1166.63,"endTime":1168.7,"body":"work and they make their"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1168.7,"endTime":1171.67,"body":"deliberate mistake, and then"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1168.7,"endTime":1171.67,"body":"they go back to their anxiety"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1171.67,"endTime":1175.33,"body":"scale afterwards. And they say"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1171.67,"endTime":1175.33,"body":"how it actually made them feel"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1175.36,"endTime":1178.27,"body":"you've got a prediction of"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1175.36,"endTime":1178.27,"body":"before I do the task, this is"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1178.27,"endTime":1181.3,"body":"how I predict it's going to make"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1178.27,"endTime":1181.3,"body":"me feel which might be say a"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1181.3,"endTime":1184.21,"body":"seven or eight and then after"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1181.3,"endTime":1184.21,"body":"they've done it and they do"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1184.21,"endTime":1186.64,"body":"their review. They might then"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1184.21,"endTime":1186.64,"body":"say well, actually, you know"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1186.67,"endTime":1190.48,"body":"that wasn't too bad, but it was"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1186.67,"endTime":1190.48,"body":"actually a six or a five in some"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1190.48,"endTime":1194.29,"body":"cases, the teacher might have to"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1190.48,"endTime":1194.29,"body":"agree say not to mark the"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1194.29,"endTime":1197.35,"body":"mistake to encourage them to"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1194.29,"endTime":1197.35,"body":"experiment or they get the"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1197.35,"endTime":1200.71,"body":"option to do the mistake in"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1197.35,"endTime":1200.71,"body":"pencil they can have the book in"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1200.71,"endTime":1204.16,"body":"they can write on their anxiety"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1200.71,"endTime":1204.16,"body":"scale how they feel now and then"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1204.16,"endTime":1206.26,"body":"we agree to rub it out"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1204.16,"endTime":1206.26,"body":"afterwards might have to take"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1206.26,"endTime":1208.93,"body":"baby steps towards making that"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1206.26,"endTime":1208.93,"body":"mistake. And then we ask them"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1208.93,"endTime":1212.47,"body":"questions like was making the"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1208.93,"endTime":1212.47,"body":"mistake as bad as you thought it"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1212.47,"endTime":1215.74,"body":"would be? And what were the"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1212.47,"endTime":1215.74,"body":"consequences for making that"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1215.74,"endTime":1219.4,"body":"mistake did anything bad happen?"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1215.74,"endTime":1219.4,"body":"And were you able to cope with"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1219.4,"endTime":1222.52,"body":"handing that book in? And"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1219.4,"endTime":1222.52,"body":"remember being able to cope and"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1222.52,"endTime":1225.04,"body":"being able to manage your"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1222.52,"endTime":1225.04,"body":"anxiety is different from"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1225.04,"endTime":1229.3,"body":"feeling happy. Happiness is"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1225.04,"endTime":1229.3,"body":"sometimes described as having no"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1229.3,"endTime":1231.82,"body":"negative emotions. And what we"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1229.3,"endTime":1231.82,"body":"have to do with kids with"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1231.82,"endTime":1234.67,"body":"anxieties is give them the"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1231.82,"endTime":1234.67,"body":"strategies to cope with those"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1234.67,"endTime":1237.25,"body":"anxieties. It's not very often"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1234.67,"endTime":1237.25,"body":"we manage to make those"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1237.25,"endTime":1240.52,"body":"anxieties completely disappear"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1237.25,"endTime":1240.52,"body":"and go away. Now, there are lots"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1240.52,"endTime":1243.04,"body":"of other questions you can ask"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1240.52,"endTime":1243.04,"body":"to encourage realistic thinking."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1243.4,"endTime":1246.61,"body":"And if you've got our inner"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1243.4,"endTime":1246.61,"body":"circle programme, look at the"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1246.61,"endTime":1249.34,"body":"anxiety module because we go"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1246.61,"endTime":1249.34,"body":"into this in detail and give you"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1249.34,"endTime":1250.69,"body":"plenty of examples."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1250.76,"endTime":1253.67,"body":"Okay, then. So"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1250.76,"endTime":1253.67,"body":"let's sum up. What we've learned"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1253.67,"endTime":1257.93,"body":"today then is refusal to work"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1253.67,"endTime":1257.93,"body":"often represents a deeper"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1257.93,"endTime":1259.76,"body":"anxiety about the work"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1259.78,"endTime":1262.36,"body":"Pupils are"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1259.78,"endTime":1262.36,"body":"rejecting the work before it"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1262.36,"endTime":1263.26,"body":"rejects them."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1263.44,"endTime":1266.62,"body":"A pupil might"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1263.44,"endTime":1266.62,"body":"be motivated to engage in task"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1266.62,"endTime":1272.5,"body":"avoidance to avoid failure, or"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1266.62,"endTime":1272.5,"body":"they might be motivated towards"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1272.5,"endTime":1276.07,"body":"perfectionism, and they don't"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1272.5,"endTime":1276.07,"body":"want to experience failing to"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1276.07,"endTime":1277.81,"body":"achieve that perfect outcome."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1277.87,"endTime":1280.12,"body":"It doesn't"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1277.87,"endTime":1280.12,"body":"matter whether a piece of work"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1280.12,"endTime":1284.05,"body":"is perfectly differentiated,"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1280.12,"endTime":1284.05,"body":"what matters is whether they"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1284.05,"endTime":1285.76,"body":"believe they can achieve it"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1285.81,"endTime":1288.66,"body":"And using"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1285.81,"endTime":1288.66,"body":"confidence competence loops,"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1288.75,"endTime":1293.49,"body":"questions that provoke realistic"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1288.75,"endTime":1293.49,"body":"thinking, and anxiety scales can"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1293.49,"endTime":1296.64,"body":"help pupils learn to cope with"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1293.49,"endTime":1296.64,"body":"that anxiety."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1296.67,"endTime":1299.94,"body":"But you always,"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1296.67,"endTime":1299.94,"body":"always, always need to dig into"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1300.03,"endTime":1303.12,"body":"individual reasons for that"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1300.03,"endTime":1303.12,"body":"individual child."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1303.15,"endTime":1305.07,"body":"And if you work"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1303.15,"endTime":1305.07,"body":"with kids with challenging"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1305.07,"endTime":1308.07,"body":"behaviour, and you're not sure"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1305.07,"endTime":1308.07,"body":"why they're acting that way,"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1308.19,"endTime":1310.35,"body":"we've got a download that can"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1308.19,"endTime":1310.35,"body":"help."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1310.38,"endTime":1312.78,"body":"It's called the"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1310.38,"endTime":1312.78,"body":"SEND handbook, and it will help"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1312.78,"endTime":1315.15,"body":"you link behaviours you've seen"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1312.78,"endTime":1315.15,"body":"in the classroom with possible"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1315.15,"endTime":1318.27,"body":"causes, like autism, Aces and"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1315.15,"endTime":1318.27,"body":"ADHD."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1318.42,"endTime":1320.97,"body":"And of course,"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1318.42,"endTime":1320.97,"body":"the idea here isn't for teachers"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1320.97,"endTime":1324.27,"body":"to make a diagnosis because"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1320.97,"endTime":1324.27,"body":"we're not qualified to do that."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1324.33,"endTime":1328.38,"body":"But if we link behaviours to"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1324.33,"endTime":1328.38,"body":"possible underlying causes"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1328.38,"endTime":1332.28,"body":"quickly, it means that we can"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1328.38,"endTime":1332.28,"body":"get the right help and get early"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1332.28,"endTime":1336.45,"body":"intervention strategies in"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1332.28,"endTime":1336.45,"body":"place. That's a free download."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1336.45,"endTime":1340.62,"body":"So go to our website"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1336.45,"endTime":1340.62,"body":"www.beaconschoolsupport.co.uk."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1340.77,"endTime":1345.03,"body":"click on Free Resources near the"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1340.77,"endTime":1345.03,"body":"top and we'll also put a link in"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1345.03,"endTime":1346.5,"body":"the episode description."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1346.0,"endTime":1348.49,"body":"And if you've"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1346.0,"endTime":1348.49,"body":"enjoyed today's podcast, then"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1348.49,"endTime":1352.06,"body":"why not subscribe to make sure"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1348.49,"endTime":1352.06,"body":"you never miss another episode"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1352.06,"endTime":1355.03,"body":"subscribing is completely free."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1352.06,"endTime":1355.03,"body":"All you have to do is open up"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1355.03,"endTime":1358.18,"body":"your podcast app hit the"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1355.03,"endTime":1358.18,"body":"subscribe button or follow as"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1358.18,"endTime":1361.12,"body":"it's called in Apple podcasts"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1358.18,"endTime":1361.12,"body":"and your app will make sure you"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1361.15,"endTime":1365.8,"body":"download every new episode as"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1361.15,"endTime":1365.8,"body":"it's released and to celebrate."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1365.86,"endTime":1369.43,"body":"Why not set up your own insect"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1365.86,"endTime":1369.43,"body":"kingdom and become Lord of the"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1369.43,"endTime":1372.55,"body":"Flies. Put out some old rotting"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1369.43,"endTime":1372.55,"body":"meat to attract your new"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1372.55,"endTime":1375.97,"body":"subjects and then as they arrive"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1372.55,"endTime":1375.97,"body":"for their tasty snack offer them"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1375.97,"endTime":1379.57,"body":"positions in a fly Parliament"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1375.97,"endTime":1379.57,"body":"made out of a series of yoghurt"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1379.57,"endTime":1382.75,"body":"pots you've glued together, then"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1379.57,"endTime":1382.75,"body":"set out your legislative"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1382.75,"endTime":1385.9,"body":"programme and ask your fly MPs"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1382.75,"endTime":1385.9,"body":"to vote according to their"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1385.9,"endTime":1389.71,"body":"conscience, creating a new land"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1385.9,"endTime":1389.71,"body":"of freedom and justice. You"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1389.71,"endTime":1393.22,"body":"truly will be Lord of the Flies."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1389.71,"endTime":1393.22,"body":"I've never read the book but I'm"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1393.22,"endTime":1394.42,"body":"guessing that's what it's about."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1393.22,"endTime":1394.42,"body":"Right?"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1394.54,"endTime":1397.42,"body":"And on that"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1394.54,"endTime":1397.42,"body":"note then we're gonna fly off."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1397.99,"endTime":1401.68,"body":"You like that? And wish you an"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1397.99,"endTime":1401.68,"body":"excellent week. And we look"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1401.68,"endTime":1405.01,"body":"forward to seeing you next time"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1401.68,"endTime":1405.01,"body":"on school behaviour secrets."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1405.25,"endTime":1405.73,"body":"Bye"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1405.76,"endTime":1406.45,"body":"Bye for now."}]}