{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":0.0,"endTime":3.0,"body":"When we use"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":0.0,"endTime":3.0,"body":"reward charts, what we're doing"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":3.03,"endTime":6.84,"body":"is we're interfering with a"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":3.03,"endTime":6.84,"body":"child's natural desire to engage"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":6.84,"endTime":10.14,"body":"in positive behaviours because"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":6.84,"endTime":10.14,"body":"they are the right thing to do."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":10.14,"endTime":13.47,"body":"But this can be really dangerous"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":10.14,"endTime":13.47,"body":"because children end up doing"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":13.47,"endTime":17.01,"body":"the right thing to get the"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":13.47,"endTime":17.01,"body":"reward rather than doing the"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":17.01,"endTime":18.33,"body":"right thing because it's the"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":17.01,"endTime":18.33,"body":"right thing."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":18.36,"endTime":22.47,"body":"Welcome to the school behaviour"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":18.36,"endTime":22.47,"body":"secrets podcast. I'm your host,"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":22.47,"endTime":25.53,"body":"Simon Currigan. My co host is"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":22.47,"endTime":25.53,"body":"Emma Shackleton and we're"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":25.56,"endTime":29.22,"body":"obsessed with helping teachers,"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":25.56,"endTime":29.22,"body":"school leaders, parents, and of"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":29.22,"endTime":32.43,"body":"course students when classroom"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":29.22,"endTime":32.43,"body":"behaviour gets in the way of"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":32.43,"endTime":35.34,"body":"success. We're going to share"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":32.43,"endTime":35.34,"body":"the tried and tested secrets to"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":35.34,"endTime":38.13,"body":"classroom management,"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":35.34,"endTime":38.13,"body":"behavioural special needs, whole"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":38.13,"endTime":41.34,"body":"school strategy, and more. All"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":38.13,"endTime":41.34,"body":"with the aim of helping your"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":41.34,"endTime":44.43,"body":"students reach their true"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":41.34,"endTime":44.43,"body":"potential. Plus, we'll be"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":44.43,"endTime":47.49,"body":"letting you eavesdrop on our"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":44.43,"endTime":47.49,"body":"conversations with thought"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":47.49,"endTime":51.24,"body":"leaders from around the world."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":47.49,"endTime":51.24,"body":"So you'll get to hear the latest"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":51.24,"endTime":55.59,"body":"evidence based strategies before"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":51.24,"endTime":55.59,"body":"anyone else. This is the school"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":55.59,"endTime":57.48,"body":"behaviour secrets podcast."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":57.69,"endTime":60.21,"body":"Hi there. My name is Simon"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":57.69,"endTime":60.21,"body":"Currigan and welcome to another"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":60.21,"endTime":63.42,"body":"episode of school behaviour"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":60.21,"endTime":63.42,"body":"secrets hot off the presses."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":63.69,"endTime":67.17,"body":"Today's sponsor is Dr."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":63.69,"endTime":67.17,"body":"Steadfast's incredible mind"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":67.17,"endTime":70.8,"body":"cream, simply rub this patented"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":67.17,"endTime":70.8,"body":"ointment directly onto the folds"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":70.8,"endTime":74.43,"body":"of your brain to transform your"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":70.8,"endTime":74.43,"body":"normal thoughts into incredible"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":74.43,"endTime":78.09,"body":"ones. It's like your normal"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":74.43,"endTime":78.09,"body":"brain only better, brain drill"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":78.09,"endTime":80.79,"body":"included with your first"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":78.09,"endTime":80.79,"body":"purchase of a 500 mil jar of"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":80.79,"endTime":83.73,"body":"mind cream. Warning, cream may"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":80.79,"endTime":83.73,"body":"cause blackouts or permanent"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":83.73,"endTime":86.82,"body":"blindness. Dr. Steadfast mind"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":83.73,"endTime":86.82,"body":"cream!"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":86.88,"endTime":89.19,"body":"Okay, that"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":86.88,"endTime":89.19,"body":"introduction didn't go in the"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":89.19,"endTime":90.96,"body":"direction that I thought it"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":89.19,"endTime":90.96,"body":"would."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":91.08,"endTime":93.66,"body":"And that's the"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":91.08,"endTime":93.66,"body":"voice of Emma Shackleton co host"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":93.66,"endTime":94.89,"body":"of the podcast. Hi Emma."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":94.92,"endTime":96.69,"body":"Hi Simon. You"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":94.92,"endTime":96.69,"body":"feeling Okay?"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":96.0,"endTime":98.91,"body":"Yeah, so I've"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":96.0,"endTime":98.91,"body":"been using that mind cream all"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":98.91,"endTime":102.15,"body":"week and it hasn't affected me"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":98.91,"endTime":102.15,"body":"at all. I've got a question I've"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":102.15,"endTime":104.67,"body":"been waiting to ask you all"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":102.15,"endTime":104.67,"body":"week. Actually it's been fueled"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":104.67,"endTime":105.69,"body":"by the mind cream this week."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":105.72,"endTime":106.92,"body":"Oh Crikey. Go"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":105.72,"endTime":106.92,"body":"on then."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":106.98,"endTime":108.93,"body":"All right, in"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":106.98,"endTime":108.93,"body":"the words of Owen Paul from his"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":108.96,"endTime":112.98,"body":"80's smash hit. What is your"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":108.96,"endTime":112.98,"body":"favourite waste of time?"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":113.01,"endTime":115.44,"body":"If that's my"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":113.01,"endTime":115.44,"body":"cue to sing youre my favourite"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":115.44,"endTime":119.4,"body":"waste of time, Ill spare our"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":115.44,"endTime":119.4,"body":"listeners that. My favourite"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":119.4,"endTime":124.08,"body":"waste of time is probably social"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":119.4,"endTime":124.08,"body":"media scrolling. What's yours?"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":124.11,"endTime":126.24,"body":"I used to have"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":124.11,"endTime":126.24,"body":"this game called merge mania on"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":126.24,"endTime":129.51,"body":"my phone. I would just spend"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":126.24,"endTime":129.51,"body":"hours just merging blocks"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":129.51,"endTime":131.43,"body":"together. I had to delete it in"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":129.51,"endTime":131.43,"body":"the end, you've got to know your"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":131.43,"endTime":132.15,"body":"own weaknesses don't you."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":132.18,"endTime":134.16,"body":"You certainly"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":132.18,"endTime":134.16,"body":"do. So go on then. What's the"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":134.16,"endTime":135.87,"body":"link with this week's episode?"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":135.9,"endTime":139.5,"body":"Well, it's like"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":135.9,"endTime":139.5,"body":"this. When we go into schools,"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":139.5,"endTime":143.01,"body":"we see a lot of reward charts"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":139.5,"endTime":143.01,"body":"being used to incentivise good"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":143.01,"endTime":147.21,"body":"behaviour. But the question is,"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":143.01,"endTime":147.21,"body":"when it comes to working with"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":147.21,"endTime":150.54,"body":"them with individual children,"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":147.21,"endTime":150.54,"body":"are they a waste of time? Do"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":150.54,"endTime":153.66,"body":"they actually make any"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":150.54,"endTime":153.66,"body":"difference? And that is what"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":153.66,"endTime":154.92,"body":"we're going to dig into today."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":154.0,"endTime":154.96,"body":"Sounds good,"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":154.0,"endTime":154.96,"body":"possibly controversial. But"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":154.99,"endTime":160.96,"body":"before we get to that, I've got"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":154.99,"endTime":160.96,"body":"a quick request to make of our"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":160.96,"endTime":164.77,"body":"listeners if you are enjoying"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":160.96,"endTime":164.77,"body":"school behaviour secrets, or if"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":164.77,"endTime":168.37,"body":"you find it helpful or valuable,"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":164.77,"endTime":168.37,"body":"please don't keep it to"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":168.37,"endTime":171.58,"body":"yourself. Could you let three"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":168.37,"endTime":171.58,"body":"colleagues or friends know about"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":171.58,"endTime":174.4,"body":"the podcast by using the share"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":171.58,"endTime":174.4,"body":"button on your app."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":174.33,"endTime":177.6,"body":"That said, let's"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":174.33,"endTime":177.6,"body":"grab a chopstick, pull back the"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":177.6,"endTime":181.47,"body":"neck of our jumpers, insert the"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":177.6,"endTime":181.47,"body":"instruments and scratch that"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":181.47,"endTime":185.94,"body":"back which we call behaviour."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":181.47,"endTime":185.94,"body":"Right then, So reward charts,"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":185.94,"endTime":188.85,"body":"let's have a little think about"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":185.94,"endTime":188.85,"body":"how we use them in classrooms to"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":188.85,"endTime":192.54,"body":"support children with their"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":188.85,"endTime":192.54,"body":"individual needs and individual"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":192.54,"endTime":193.11,"body":"behaviour."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":193.33,"endTime":195.67,"body":"So let's think"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":193.33,"endTime":195.67,"body":"about how we use behaviour"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":195.67,"endTime":199.99,"body":"charts with individuals then. So"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":195.67,"endTime":199.99,"body":"typically, there used to work on"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":199.99,"endTime":204.04,"body":"a specific behaviour, I don't"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":199.99,"endTime":204.04,"body":"know, let's say reducing calling"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":204.04,"endTime":208.36,"body":"out. Each time the child manages"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":204.04,"endTime":208.36,"body":"to demonstrate that behaviour,"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":208.36,"endTime":212.08,"body":"the adult will then award them"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":208.36,"endTime":212.08,"body":"with maybe a tick or a house"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":212.08,"endTime":216.52,"body":"point or Dojo or whatever. And"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":212.08,"endTime":216.52,"body":"the way that that works is every"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":216.52,"endTime":219.97,"body":"time that the child is rewarded"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":216.52,"endTime":219.97,"body":"in that way, they get a little"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":219.97,"endTime":223.6,"body":"kick of dopamine in the reward"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":219.97,"endTime":223.6,"body":"centre of their brain. And that"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":223.6,"endTime":228.1,"body":"feels good. So the theory is"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":223.6,"endTime":228.1,"body":"that we will then be motivated"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":228.1,"endTime":231.37,"body":"to repeat that behaviour."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":228.1,"endTime":231.37,"body":"Because the child will want"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":231.37,"endTime":235.3,"body":"another point or another tick or"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":231.37,"endTime":235.3,"body":"another Dojo or whatever it is,"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":235.42,"endTime":238.51,"body":"because they enjoy the"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":235.42,"endTime":238.51,"body":"pleasurable sensation that that"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":238.51,"endTime":242.53,"body":"brings. The potential benefits"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":238.51,"endTime":242.53,"body":"of using behaviour charts are"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":242.53,"endTime":246.61,"body":"things like the ability to track"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":242.53,"endTime":246.61,"body":"and reward positive behaviour."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":246.61,"endTime":249.79,"body":"So if you've got a child using a"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":246.61,"endTime":249.79,"body":"chart, you're able to look back"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":249.79,"endTime":253.78,"body":"across the week and see, are"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":249.79,"endTime":253.78,"body":"there any patterns. Is it for"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":253.78,"endTime":257.44,"body":"example, that their behaviour is"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":253.78,"endTime":257.44,"body":"pretty good up until playtime"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":257.47,"endTime":261.49,"body":"but then after playtime, it goes"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":257.47,"endTime":261.49,"body":"downhill?You can also increase"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":261.49,"endTime":264.88,"body":"accountability. So when you've"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":261.49,"endTime":264.88,"body":"got a chart when you've got"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":264.88,"endTime":268.99,"body":"something specific that you're"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":264.88,"endTime":268.99,"body":"working on, the adult and the"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":268.99,"endTime":274.24,"body":"child then bring that behaviour"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":268.99,"endTime":274.24,"body":"into focus. And by achieving or"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":274.24,"endTime":277.45,"body":"not achieving rewards, you've"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":274.24,"endTime":277.45,"body":"got a good measure there of how"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":277.45,"endTime":280.75,"body":"the child is doing. It can be"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":277.45,"endTime":280.75,"body":"helpful to improve communication"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":280.75,"endTime":284.17,"body":"between teachers and parents."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":280.75,"endTime":284.17,"body":"Sometimes people take a"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":284.17,"endTime":287.23,"body":"photocopy of the reward chart,"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":284.17,"endTime":287.23,"body":"for example, or the behaviour"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":287.23,"endTime":291.04,"body":"chart and they send it home on a"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":287.23,"endTime":291.04,"body":"Friday so that parents can also"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":291.04,"endTime":295.54,"body":"see what's happening in school."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":291.04,"endTime":295.54,"body":"Some children really do find"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":295.54,"endTime":299.41,"body":"them motivating in the short"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":295.54,"endTime":299.41,"body":"term at least, and they can be"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":299.41,"endTime":302.44,"body":"used to support children with"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":299.41,"endTime":302.44,"body":"low level behaviour and"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":302.44,"endTime":306.07,"body":"regulation skills, as well as"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":302.44,"endTime":306.07,"body":"for things like learning"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":306.07,"endTime":307.96,"body":"specific academic skills."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":307.99,"endTime":310.63,"body":"So do they"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":307.99,"endTime":310.63,"body":"always work? Well, let's have a"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":310.63,"endTime":314.35,"body":"look at some of the downsides of"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":310.63,"endTime":314.35,"body":"behaviour charts. And what are"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":314.35,"endTime":318.7,"body":"the obvious ones that stands out"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":314.35,"endTime":318.7,"body":"to me is the potential for"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":318.76,"endTime":322.93,"body":"negative effects on the child's"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":318.76,"endTime":322.93,"body":"self esteem. So if the adults"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":322.93,"endTime":325.54,"body":"sat down with them, and they're"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":322.93,"endTime":325.54,"body":"talking about working towards,"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":325.78,"endTime":328.72,"body":"you know, using a target"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":325.78,"endTime":328.72,"body":"behaviour in class, maybe"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":328.84,"endTime":331.15,"body":"putting up their hand during"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":328.84,"endTime":331.15,"body":"whole class time, instead of"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":331.15,"endTime":335.41,"body":"shouting out, if they find that"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":331.15,"endTime":335.41,"body":"they're still engaging in that"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":335.41,"endTime":339.16,"body":"shouting out and then not, say,"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":335.41,"endTime":339.16,"body":"earning ticks or stickers on"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":339.16,"endTime":342.55,"body":"that chart, they never sort of"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":339.16,"endTime":342.55,"body":"realised that end goal of"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":342.55,"endTime":344.71,"body":"working towards that sort of"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":342.55,"endTime":344.71,"body":"bigger reward when they've"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":344.71,"endTime":347.95,"body":"completed their chart. Well,"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":344.71,"endTime":347.95,"body":"that's going to have an impact"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":347.95,"endTime":351.28,"body":"on their self esteem, it's going"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":347.95,"endTime":351.28,"body":"to reinforce that they're not"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":351.28,"endTime":354.19,"body":"able to do it. And one of the"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":351.28,"endTime":354.19,"body":"problems with that is when we're"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":354.19,"endTime":357.97,"body":"using things like behaviour"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":354.19,"endTime":357.97,"body":"charts, what we're doing is, we"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":357.97,"endTime":364.15,"body":"are assuming that the child is"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":357.97,"endTime":364.15,"body":"able to engage in the behaviour"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":364.15,"endTime":367.3,"body":"that we want them to, we're"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":364.15,"endTime":367.3,"body":"assuming that there's no lack of"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":367.33,"endTime":370.6,"body":"understanding, there's no"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":367.33,"endTime":370.6,"body":"underlying issue with them"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":370.6,"endTime":374.56,"body":"accessing that target behaviour."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":370.6,"endTime":374.56,"body":"And if there is if there's a"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":374.56,"endTime":377.98,"body":"lack of understanding if there's"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":374.56,"endTime":377.98,"body":"a missing social skill, and if"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":377.98,"endTime":380.65,"body":"there's an underlying deficit,"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":377.98,"endTime":380.65,"body":"because they may have a"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":380.65,"endTime":384.73,"body":"condition like autism or ADHD"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":380.65,"endTime":384.73,"body":"around restraining impulses, or"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":384.73,"endTime":388.48,"body":"understanding social"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":384.73,"endTime":388.48,"body":"interactions, then the behaviour"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":388.48,"endTime":392.02,"body":"chart isn't going to help the"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":388.48,"endTime":392.02,"body":"child make progress, and that's"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":392.02,"endTime":395.83,"body":"going to lead to them to become"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":392.02,"endTime":395.83,"body":"disenchanted is going to affect"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":395.83,"endTime":399.82,"body":"their self esteem. They are"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":395.83,"endTime":399.82,"body":"going to feel like failures"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":399.82,"endTime":403.63,"body":"because the assumption is baked"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":399.82,"endTime":403.63,"body":"into any reward system that"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":403.63,"endTime":406.21,"body":"you're able to engage in the"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":403.63,"endTime":406.21,"body":"behaviour to achieve the reward."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":406.33,"endTime":410.11,"body":"So that lack of effectiveness in"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":406.33,"endTime":410.11,"body":"that it doesn't address the"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":410.11,"endTime":412.57,"body":"underlying cause of the"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":410.11,"endTime":412.57,"body":"behaviour problem, it doesn't"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":412.57,"endTime":416.38,"body":"really ever deal with the root"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":412.57,"endTime":416.38,"body":"cause of the behaviour, is a"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":416.41,"endTime":420.79,"body":"real failure of just using"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":416.41,"endTime":420.79,"body":"reward charts without thinking"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":420.79,"endTime":423.79,"body":"about what kind of support has"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":420.79,"endTime":423.79,"body":"to be in place to enable the"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":423.79,"endTime":428.53,"body":"child to access the rewards on"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":423.79,"endTime":428.53,"body":"the chart. Extrinsic rewards"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":428.53,"endTime":432.67,"body":"rather than intrinsic motivation"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":428.53,"endTime":432.67,"body":"is another issue. When we use"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":432.67,"endTime":437.08,"body":"reward charts, what we're doing"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":432.67,"endTime":437.08,"body":"is we are messing, we're"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":437.08,"endTime":440.14,"body":"interfering with the child's"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":437.08,"endTime":440.14,"body":"natural desire to engage in"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":440.14,"endTime":443.38,"body":"positive behaviours, because"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":440.14,"endTime":443.38,"body":"they are the right thing to do."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":443.5,"endTime":445.18,"body":"And this is actually. I don't"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":443.5,"endTime":445.18,"body":"know if you've seen this in the"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":445.18,"endTime":447.7,"body":"classroom Emma? But this can be"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":445.18,"endTime":447.7,"body":"really dangerous, because"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":447.94,"endTime":452.47,"body":"children end up doing the right"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":447.94,"endTime":452.47,"body":"thing to get the reward, rather"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":452.47,"endTime":454.36,"body":"than doing the right thing,"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":452.47,"endTime":454.36,"body":"because it's the right thing."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":454.39,"endTime":457.48,"body":"And then when the reward chart"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":454.39,"endTime":457.48,"body":"goes away, or the reward chart"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":457.48,"endTime":459.82,"body":"gets boring, or someone else"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":457.48,"endTime":459.82,"body":"comes into class, and there's a"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":459.82,"endTime":464.35,"body":"supply teacher, the child stops"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":459.82,"endTime":464.35,"body":"engaging in that positive"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":464.35,"endTime":466.51,"body":"behaviour, because now they're"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":464.35,"endTime":466.51,"body":"not getting a kickback, they're"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":466.51,"endTime":469.3,"body":"not getting a bribe for doing"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":466.51,"endTime":469.3,"body":"the right thing. And that can"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":469.3,"endTime":471.97,"body":"kind of interfere with the"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":469.3,"endTime":471.97,"body":"reason for doing it. And it"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":471.97,"endTime":475.09,"body":"interferes with the stickiness"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":471.97,"endTime":475.09,"body":"of that behaviour."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":475.27,"endTime":477.79,"body":"Yeah, I totally"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":475.27,"endTime":477.79,"body":"agree with that often the chart"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":477.79,"endTime":481.63,"body":"loses its effectiveness after a"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":477.79,"endTime":481.63,"body":"while and it kind of wears off."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":481.96,"endTime":484.9,"body":"And sometimes as well, you see"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":481.96,"endTime":484.9,"body":"behaviour chart set up for"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":484.9,"endTime":487.93,"body":"children. And the adults might"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":484.9,"endTime":487.93,"body":"be really enthusiastic for the"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":487.93,"endTime":490.81,"body":"first few days or the first"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":487.93,"endTime":490.81,"body":"couple of weeks. But then after"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":490.81,"endTime":493.9,"body":"a while, they're kind of lying"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":490.81,"endTime":493.9,"body":"around on a desk gathering dust"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":493.9,"endTime":496.3,"body":"somewhere, and they haven't"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":493.9,"endTime":496.3,"body":"really earned anything for a"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":496.3,"endTime":499.6,"body":"while. And once it feels like"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":496.3,"endTime":499.6,"body":"it's not priority for the adults"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":499.6,"endTime":502.78,"body":"anymore, the children quickly"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":499.6,"endTime":502.78,"body":"realise that they're not going"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":502.78,"endTime":505.72,"body":"to get that immediate reward. So"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":502.78,"endTime":505.72,"body":"they get bored and get a bit"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":505.72,"endTime":509.59,"body":"turned off by it. And when you"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":505.72,"endTime":509.59,"body":"think about it, children who are"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":509.59,"endTime":513.58,"body":"neurodiverse. So for example,"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":509.59,"endTime":513.58,"body":"children with ADHD might get"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":513.58,"endTime":517.09,"body":"really turned off by behaviour"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":513.58,"endTime":517.09,"body":"charts, because there's often"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":517.09,"endTime":521.56,"body":"sometimes a kind of secret"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":517.09,"endTime":521.56,"body":"negative side to it as well. And"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":521.56,"endTime":525.49,"body":"as soon as the chart becomes a"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":521.56,"endTime":525.49,"body":"negative behaviour management"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":525.49,"endTime":529.93,"body":"tool, it really does turn kids"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":525.49,"endTime":529.93,"body":"off, especially when that's a"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":529.93,"endTime":534.64,"body":"very public negative. So many"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":529.93,"endTime":534.64,"body":"schools now have moved away from"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":534.64,"endTime":537.91,"body":"this approach. But if you've"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":534.64,"endTime":537.91,"body":"ever seen a child do the walk of"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":537.91,"endTime":542.68,"body":"shame, to remove a point from"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":537.91,"endTime":542.68,"body":"the class chart, for example, if"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":542.68,"endTime":546.25,"body":"they actually got up and did it,"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":542.68,"endTime":546.25,"body":"rather than refusing, that's one"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":546.25,"endTime":550.96,"body":"thing, but the humiliation that"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":546.25,"endTime":550.96,"body":"goes with that having to walk"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":550.96,"endTime":554.77,"body":"across the classroom and remove"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":550.96,"endTime":554.77,"body":"a point from the board, or them"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":554.92,"endTime":559.03,"body":"getting that negative Dojo"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":554.92,"endTime":559.03,"body":"sound, when a dojo is taken away"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":559.03,"endTime":562.87,"body":"in front of the whole class,"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":559.03,"endTime":562.87,"body":"that humiliation becomes a"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":562.87,"endTime":567.16,"body":"pretty strong motivator to not"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":562.87,"endTime":567.16,"body":"want to engage with the reward"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":567.16,"endTime":572.05,"body":"system at all. Better to get no"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":567.16,"endTime":572.05,"body":"reward than risk that public"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":572.05,"endTime":575.14,"body":"humiliation of having the"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":572.05,"endTime":575.14,"body":"rewards snatched back at your"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":575.14,"endTime":576.25,"body":"next wrong move."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":576.51,"endTime":579.48,"body":"And of course, a"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":576.51,"endTime":579.48,"body":"lot of kids who are neurodiverse"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":579.48,"endTime":583.2,"body":"or maybe have a background of"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":579.48,"endTime":583.2,"body":"trauma, they find school a very"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":583.2,"endTime":587.1,"body":"stressful anxiety provoking"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":583.2,"endTime":587.1,"body":"place to be and a result of"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":587.1,"endTime":589.08,"body":"that, and we've talked about"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":587.1,"endTime":589.08,"body":"this in the past. This moves you"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":589.08,"endTime":592.56,"body":"towards a state called amygdala"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":589.08,"endTime":592.56,"body":"hijack, which is where you start"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":592.56,"endTime":596.88,"body":"thinking emotionally and stop"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":592.56,"endTime":596.88,"body":"thinking logically and planning"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":596.88,"endTime":599.97,"body":"ahead and thinking about"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":596.88,"endTime":599.97,"body":"consequences of your actions and"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":599.97,"endTime":604.02,"body":"so on. A side effect of amygdala"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":599.97,"endTime":604.02,"body":"hijack is you tend to become"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":604.02,"endTime":608.73,"body":"very focused on survival in the"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":604.02,"endTime":608.73,"body":"now, you stop worrying about"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":608.73,"endTime":611.76,"body":"what happens in the future, you"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":608.73,"endTime":611.76,"body":"worry about dealing with"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":611.76,"endTime":613.8,"body":"whatever pressures are facing"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":611.76,"endTime":613.8,"body":"you at the moment, whether"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":613.8,"endTime":616.17,"body":"that's social pressure, or it's"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":613.8,"endTime":616.17,"body":"cognitive, because you're"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":616.17,"endTime":618.96,"body":"struggling with your work,"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":616.17,"endTime":618.96,"body":"whether it's about regulating"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":618.96,"endTime":622.89,"body":"your emotions, you care about"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":618.96,"endTime":622.89,"body":"the instant this moment right"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":622.89,"endTime":627.03,"body":"now. And as a result of that"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":622.89,"endTime":627.03,"body":"your behaviour is going to look"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":627.09,"endTime":629.52,"body":"to some extent it can look quite"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":627.09,"endTime":629.52,"body":"random, you're going to look"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":629.52,"endTime":631.95,"body":"very reactive, you're not going"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":629.52,"endTime":631.95,"body":"to be thinking about your reward"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":631.95,"endTime":635.28,"body":"chart. And when you look at the"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":631.95,"endTime":635.28,"body":"reward chart, at the end of the"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":635.28,"endTime":639.27,"body":"day, what you're seeing is"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":635.28,"endTime":639.27,"body":"random patterns of behaviour,"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":639.27,"endTime":642.48,"body":"because the child's in a state"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":639.27,"endTime":642.48,"body":"where they're not able to think"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":642.48,"endTime":647.19,"body":"ahead. So actually, what you're"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":642.48,"endTime":647.19,"body":"reinforcing is a random pattern"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":647.19,"endTime":652.5,"body":"of behaviour that's not building"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":647.19,"endTime":652.5,"body":"towards long term consistent"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":652.56,"endTime":656.58,"body":"implementation of positive"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":652.56,"endTime":656.58,"body":"behaviour strategies, or, you"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":656.58,"endTime":659.73,"body":"know, regulation strategies,"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":656.58,"endTime":659.73,"body":"because the reward chart isn't"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":659.73,"endTime":662.37,"body":"actually doing anything. Some"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":659.73,"endTime":662.37,"body":"days, it's appearing to work,"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":662.49,"endTime":664.32,"body":"because the child came into"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":662.49,"endTime":664.32,"body":"school and they were less"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":664.32,"endTime":667.38,"body":"anxious and less stressed. Some"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":664.32,"endTime":667.38,"body":"days, it's appearing not to work"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":667.38,"endTime":670.11,"body":"because the child came in. And"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":667.38,"endTime":670.11,"body":"they're in this high stress"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":670.11,"endTime":672.78,"body":"state and amygdala hijack. And"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":670.11,"endTime":672.78,"body":"actually, the reward chart is"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":672.78,"endTime":675.15,"body":"doing nothing either way. And"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":672.78,"endTime":675.15,"body":"it's just giving you this data"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":675.15,"endTime":677.97,"body":"that just goes up and down and"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":675.15,"endTime":677.97,"body":"doesn't mean very much at all."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":678.03,"endTime":682.05,"body":"Plus, let's have a look at the"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":678.03,"endTime":682.05,"body":"long term effects of reward"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":682.05,"endTime":686.16,"body":"charts. Well, we know from lots"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":682.05,"endTime":686.16,"body":"and lots of research, not just"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":686.16,"endTime":690.06,"body":"in schools, but with adults in"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":686.16,"endTime":690.06,"body":"industry, that extrinsic"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":690.06,"endTime":695.52,"body":"systems, which is what reward"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":690.06,"endTime":695.52,"body":"charts are, tend to have very"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":695.55,"endTime":700.17,"body":"short term effects. And that's"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":695.55,"endTime":700.17,"body":"because they become boring very,"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":700.17,"endTime":703.53,"body":"very quickly, kids get used to"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":700.17,"endTime":703.53,"body":"the rewards. And one of two"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":703.53,"endTime":707.19,"body":"things happens there, they lose"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":703.53,"endTime":707.19,"body":"their attraction because they"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":707.19,"endTime":709.74,"body":"lose their novelty. There's"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":707.19,"endTime":709.74,"body":"something called the hedonistic"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":709.74,"endTime":713.28,"body":"treadmill, which is imagine that"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":709.74,"endTime":713.28,"body":"you're, you know, in your job,"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":713.28,"endTime":715.71,"body":"and you're earning some money,"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":713.28,"endTime":715.71,"body":"let's imagine you're earning, I"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":715.71,"endTime":718.41,"body":"don't know, let's pick a number"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":715.71,"endTime":718.41,"body":"out of the year, 35,000 pounds a"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":718.41,"endTime":722.22,"body":"year, the boss walks in, and he"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":718.41,"endTime":722.22,"body":"says, Oh, I love the work you're"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":722.22,"endTime":725.1,"body":"doing in your classroom, I am"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":722.22,"endTime":725.1,"body":"going to give you a wage"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":725.1,"endTime":728.55,"body":"increase of 2000 pounds a year,"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":725.1,"endTime":728.55,"body":"well, the first month, you open"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":728.55,"endTime":731.31,"body":"your pay packet, you see that"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":728.55,"endTime":731.31,"body":"extra money, that's very"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":731.31,"endTime":734.79,"body":"exciting and very motivating,"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":731.31,"endTime":734.79,"body":"month two, well, it's still"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":734.79,"endTime":737.82,"body":"motivating, but maybe not quite"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":734.79,"endTime":737.82,"body":"as exciting and new as it was"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":737.82,"endTime":740.94,"body":"last month, month three, yeah,"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":737.82,"endTime":740.94,"body":"you're still getting a little"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":740.94,"endTime":744.09,"body":"bit of kick of excitement. By"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":740.94,"endTime":744.09,"body":"the time you reach month four,"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":744.09,"endTime":747.6,"body":"month five, month six, it just"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":744.09,"endTime":747.6,"body":"becomes expected, you just build"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":747.6,"endTime":750.75,"body":"it into your expectation of what"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":747.6,"endTime":750.75,"body":"you should be paid to do your"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":750.75,"endTime":754.35,"body":"job. And it's the same with"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":750.75,"endTime":754.35,"body":"reward charts in schools, if a"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":754.35,"endTime":757.8,"body":"child starts to achieve rewards"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":754.35,"endTime":757.8,"body":"for engaging in certain"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":757.8,"endTime":762.3,"body":"behaviours, then over time, they"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":757.8,"endTime":762.3,"body":"start to become part of what"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":762.3,"endTime":765.03,"body":"they expect of their school"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":762.3,"endTime":765.03,"body":"life, and they just lose their"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":765.03,"endTime":767.64,"body":"attraction. It's called the"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":765.03,"endTime":767.64,"body":"hedonistic treadmill. So when we"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":767.7,"endTime":771.15,"body":"get used to something new, we"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":767.7,"endTime":771.15,"body":"sort of assimilate it and it"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":771.15,"endTime":775.17,"body":"becomes an expected part of our"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":771.15,"endTime":775.17,"body":"life, we start to want the next"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":775.17,"endTime":779.64,"body":"exciting thing or the next goal,"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":775.17,"endTime":779.64,"body":"because rewards become mundane,"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":779.64,"endTime":780.84,"body":"very, very quickly."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":780.0,"endTime":782.85,"body":"I completely"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":780.0,"endTime":782.85,"body":"agree with what you said there"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":782.85,"endTime":786.18,"body":"about the reward chart and just"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":782.85,"endTime":786.18,"body":"sometimes being data collection."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":786.48,"endTime":790.44,"body":"Because sometimes adults fall"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":786.48,"endTime":790.44,"body":"into the trap of thinking that"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":790.44,"endTime":794.91,"body":"if they set a goal, and attach a"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":790.44,"endTime":794.91,"body":"reward to it, that will"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":794.91,"endTime":797.94,"body":"automatically change the"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":794.91,"endTime":797.94,"body":"behaviour. But actually,"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":797.94,"endTime":801.84,"body":"sometimes there isn't enough"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":797.94,"endTime":801.84,"body":"emphasis on setting the children"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":801.84,"endTime":802.77,"body":"up for success."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":802.77,"endTime":803.16,"body":"Yeah,"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":803.21,"endTime":806.21,"body":"The reward"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":803.21,"endTime":806.21,"body":"chart just becomes a record of"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":806.21,"endTime":809.63,"body":"did they do it? Or did they not?"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":806.21,"endTime":809.63,"body":"So let's take the example of"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":809.63,"endTime":812.57,"body":"calling out if we want a child"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":809.63,"endTime":812.57,"body":"to stop calling out and we'd"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":812.57,"endTime":816.05,"body":"like them to raise their hand"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":812.57,"endTime":816.05,"body":"instead, if we haven't given"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":816.05,"endTime":820.22,"body":"them reminders, if we haven't"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":816.05,"endTime":820.22,"body":"kept the waiting time short, if"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":820.22,"endTime":823.88,"body":"we haven't built the strategies"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":820.22,"endTime":823.88,"body":"in the structures and put the"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":823.88,"endTime":828.14,"body":"emphasis on reminding the child"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":823.88,"endTime":828.14,"body":"about the target before we"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":828.14,"endTime":832.43,"body":"expect that behaviour. What"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":828.14,"endTime":832.43,"body":"tends to happen is sometimes"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":832.52,"endTime":834.89,"body":"they'll have a lucky session"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":832.52,"endTime":834.89,"body":"where they're feeling calm, and"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":834.89,"endTime":838.7,"body":"they don't call out so much. So"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":834.89,"endTime":838.7,"body":"ping, they achieve the reward."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":838.97,"endTime":842.75,"body":"Sometimes they don't manage to"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":838.97,"endTime":842.75,"body":"control that behaviour. They"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":842.75,"endTime":845.87,"body":"haven't been reminded they"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":842.75,"endTime":845.87,"body":"haven't been supported. So we"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":845.87,"endTime":848.12,"body":"get to the end of the session,"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":845.87,"endTime":848.12,"body":"and we say right, do you get a"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":848.12,"endTime":850.88,"body":"point today for calling out?"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":848.12,"endTime":850.88,"body":"Well, no, you don't because you"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":850.88,"endTime":854.69,"body":"were calling out too often. So"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":850.88,"endTime":854.69,"body":"it tends to be after the fact"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":854.69,"endTime":858.95,"body":"and we just go in, Yes, you did,"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":854.69,"endTime":858.95,"body":"or No, you didn't. And when the"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":858.98,"endTime":863.06,"body":"reward is all in the adults"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":858.98,"endTime":863.06,"body":"control like that it can feel to"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":863.06,"endTime":867.32,"body":"the child like it's really just"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":863.06,"endTime":867.32,"body":"whether the adult is feeling"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":867.32,"endTime":870.65,"body":"generous or not whether they get"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":867.32,"endTime":870.65,"body":"it and it's not linked to the"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":870.65,"endTime":873.98,"body":"actual behaviour. And that's a"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":870.65,"endTime":873.98,"body":"real turnoff for kids as well,"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":873.98,"endTime":877.25,"body":"because especially if adults"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":873.98,"endTime":877.25,"body":"take the reward back."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":877.28,"endTime":877.73,"body":"Yeah,"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":877.75,"endTime":879.67,"body":"I've probably"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":877.75,"endTime":879.67,"body":"said this before, but a long,"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":879.67,"endTime":882.46,"body":"long, long time ago, I was"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":879.67,"endTime":882.46,"body":"observing in a reception"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":882.46,"endTime":885.79,"body":"classroom and there was a boy"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":882.46,"endTime":885.79,"body":"with a great big shiny sticker"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":885.79,"endTime":888.19,"body":"on his jumper and you'd"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":885.79,"endTime":888.19,"body":"obviously doing something really"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":888.19,"endTime":891.52,"body":"good earlier in the day. And"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":888.19,"endTime":891.52,"body":"then he actually hit another"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":891.52,"endTime":895.15,"body":"child which is obviously a"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":891.52,"endTime":895.15,"body":"negative and unacceptable"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":895.15,"endTime":899.38,"body":"behaviour. And the adult went"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":895.15,"endTime":899.38,"body":"over and peeled the sticker off"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":899.38,"endTime":903.28,"body":"his jump and tore it up in front"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":899.38,"endTime":903.28,"body":"of him. And I was I mean, that's"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":903.28,"endTime":907.24,"body":"obviously their frustration, but"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":903.28,"endTime":907.24,"body":"I was horrified. And the message"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":907.24,"endTime":911.59,"body":"to the child is, I can take away"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":907.24,"endTime":911.59,"body":"these rewards, or I can give"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":911.59,"endTime":915.79,"body":"these rewards at my will. And it"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":911.59,"endTime":915.79,"body":"feels like it's not really in"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":915.79,"endTime":918.76,"body":"the child's control. And as"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":915.79,"endTime":918.76,"body":"we've said, already, lots of"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":918.76,"endTime":921.67,"body":"children would rather say, well"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":918.76,"endTime":921.67,"body":"stuff it then, I don't want the"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":921.67,"endTime":922.69,"body":"reward. Forget it."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":922.84,"endTime":925.15,"body":"I think the"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":922.84,"endTime":925.15,"body":"analogy here as well is, if the"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":925.15,"endTime":928.21,"body":"child doesn't have the skill, if"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":925.15,"endTime":928.21,"body":"they're not able to do it, yeah,"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":928.27,"endTime":931.33,"body":"or there's an underlying cause,"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":928.27,"endTime":931.33,"body":"meaning they can't access that"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":931.36,"endTime":934.21,"body":"behaviour, it'd be kind of like"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":931.36,"endTime":934.21,"body":"taking a 17 year old out on"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":934.21,"endTime":938.14,"body":"their birthday onto the drive"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":934.21,"endTime":938.14,"body":"and saying, There's a car, I put"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":938.14,"endTime":939.1,"body":"an L plate on it"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":939.1,"endTime":939.73,"body":"Crack on,"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":940.21,"endTime":942.37,"body":"Crack on, here's"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":940.21,"endTime":942.37,"body":"a reward, if you come back and"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":942.37,"endTime":944.74,"body":"you don't crash, you can have a"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":942.37,"endTime":944.74,"body":"sticker, the teenager, the young"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":944.74,"endTime":948.64,"body":"person, there hasn't had the"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":944.74,"endTime":948.64,"body":"training and support in order"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":948.64,"endTime":951.04,"body":"for the reward chart to mean"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":948.64,"endTime":951.04,"body":"anything. And I think often"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":951.04,"endTime":952.63,"body":"that's the bit that gets missed"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":951.04,"endTime":952.63,"body":"out, isn't it?"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":952.81,"endTime":955.93,"body":"Absolutely. And"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":952.81,"endTime":955.93,"body":"as we've said, setting children"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":955.93,"endTime":960.16,"body":"up to be successful. So if we're"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":955.93,"endTime":960.16,"body":"going to have a chart, we make"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":960.16,"endTime":963.19,"body":"it a limited amount of time,"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":960.16,"endTime":963.19,"body":"where we're expecting to see"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":963.19,"endTime":966.04,"body":"that behaviour. And we're very,"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":963.19,"endTime":966.04,"body":"very clear about what the"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":966.04,"endTime":969.49,"body":"behaviour looks like. And we do"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":966.04,"endTime":969.49,"body":"everything within our power to"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":969.49,"endTime":972.88,"body":"support the child to be"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":969.49,"endTime":972.88,"body":"successful, so that they can"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":972.91,"endTime":976.3,"body":"earn the reward. If they never"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":972.91,"endTime":976.3,"body":"earn the reward, the chart gets"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":976.3,"endTime":978.64,"body":"boring, because they feel like"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":976.3,"endTime":978.64,"body":"they're not ever going to be"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":978.64,"endTime":982.21,"body":"rewarded anyway. And if it's"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":978.64,"endTime":982.21,"body":"very hit and miss, because they"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":982.21,"endTime":985.96,"body":"haven't been scaffolded and"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":982.21,"endTime":985.96,"body":"supported to be successful, then"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":985.96,"endTime":988.78,"body":"it also gets boring, because it"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":985.96,"endTime":988.78,"body":"feels like you're not going to"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":988.78,"endTime":990.97,"body":"give me the reward anyway, so"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":988.78,"endTime":990.97,"body":"forget it."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":990.0,"endTime":992.97,"body":"I think a lot of"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":990.0,"endTime":992.97,"body":"people as well aren't aware of"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":992.97,"endTime":996.09,"body":"the research on positive"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":992.97,"endTime":996.09,"body":"reinforcement, which is, if you"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":996.09,"endTime":999.09,"body":"are going to use a chart like"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":996.09,"endTime":999.09,"body":"this, to reinforce a behaviour,"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":999.51,"endTime":1004.31,"body":"that reward, that reinforcement"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":999.51,"endTime":1004.31,"body":"has to come almost immediately,"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1004.34,"endTime":1007.64,"body":"like within seconds to have an"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1004.34,"endTime":1007.64,"body":"effect at a biological level to"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1007.64,"endTime":1010.28,"body":"get that hit of dopamine, that's"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1007.64,"endTime":1010.28,"body":"going to encourage the child to"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1010.28,"endTime":1013.07,"body":"do that again, in the future. If"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1010.28,"endTime":1013.07,"body":"they're having to build"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1013.07,"endTime":1016.04,"body":"something up towards the end of"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1013.07,"endTime":1016.04,"body":"the day, say then actually, what"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1016.04,"endTime":1019.25,"body":"you're relying on is delayed"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1016.04,"endTime":1019.25,"body":"gratification to say, I'm not"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1019.25,"endTime":1023.06,"body":"going to do X now. So I can"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1019.25,"endTime":1023.06,"body":"receive y later, or I am going"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1023.06,"endTime":1025.4,"body":"to do this positive behaviour"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1023.06,"endTime":1025.4,"body":"now, so I can get this reward"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1025.4,"endTime":1028.34,"body":"later. And as we've already"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1025.4,"endTime":1028.34,"body":"said, a lot of the children that"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1028.34,"endTime":1031.31,"body":"need reward charts need support"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1028.34,"endTime":1031.31,"body":"with their behaviour and SEMH"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1031.46,"endTime":1034.85,"body":"need, they live in this high"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1031.46,"endTime":1034.85,"body":"level stress state, which means"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1034.88,"endTime":1036.92,"body":"they're not thinking about the"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1034.88,"endTime":1036.92,"body":"future. They're about, they're"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1036.92,"endTime":1040.01,"body":"all about survival now. And then"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1036.92,"endTime":1040.01,"body":"you end up with this kind of"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1040.01,"endTime":1041.96,"body":"mismatched approach. And"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1040.01,"endTime":1041.96,"body":"everyone's scratching their"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1041.96,"endTime":1043.34,"body":"heads and wondering why it"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1041.96,"endTime":1043.34,"body":"doesn't work."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1043.369,"endTime":1045.559,"body":"Absolutely. I"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1043.369,"endTime":1045.559,"body":"mean, the promise of something"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1045.559,"endTime":1048.619,"body":"really good, even if they"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1045.559,"endTime":1048.619,"body":"really, really want it. If it's"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1048.619,"endTime":1052.999,"body":"not going to come for hours or"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1048.619,"endTime":1052.999,"body":"even days later, then you know,"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1052.999,"endTime":1055.609,"body":"it misses the point, doesn't it?"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1052.999,"endTime":1055.609,"body":"It's got to be that short"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1055.609,"endTime":1058.969,"body":"feedback loop. So it's pretty"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1055.609,"endTime":1058.969,"body":"immediate, and then that will"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1058.969,"endTime":1060.229,"body":"reinforce the behaviour."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1060.36,"endTime":1063.45,"body":"Absolutely. So"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1060.36,"endTime":1063.45,"body":"those are our thoughts on"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1063.45,"endTime":1067.8,"body":"behaviour charts, yes, they can"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1063.45,"endTime":1067.8,"body":"have their positive effects."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1067.8,"endTime":1071.16,"body":"Yes, they can be great for"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1067.8,"endTime":1071.16,"body":"launching a child into a new"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1071.16,"endTime":1073.8,"body":"behaviour that you've trained"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1071.16,"endTime":1073.8,"body":"them with, but don't expect them"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1073.8,"endTime":1076.92,"body":"to work in the long term. They"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1073.8,"endTime":1076.92,"body":"have their strengths, but also"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1077.1,"endTime":1079.68,"body":"they have their weaknesses. And"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1077.1,"endTime":1079.68,"body":"I'd also say I don't know about"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1079.68,"endTime":1084.09,"body":"you, Emma. But also I'd say"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1079.68,"endTime":1084.09,"body":"never be dogmatic, right, use"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1084.09,"endTime":1086.25,"body":"what works for the child just"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1084.09,"endTime":1086.25,"body":"because I've sat there and said"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1086.25,"endTime":1088.47,"body":"intrinsic is better doing the"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1086.25,"endTime":1088.47,"body":"right thing, because it's the"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1088.47,"endTime":1091.74,"body":"right thing is better. If you've"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1088.47,"endTime":1091.74,"body":"got a child is having difficulty"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1091.74,"endTime":1094.83,"body":"and needs support with their"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1091.74,"endTime":1094.83,"body":"needs. And they are lapping up"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1094.83,"endTime":1098.1,"body":"the reward chart and it is"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1094.83,"endTime":1098.1,"body":"affecting their behaviour, then"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1098.13,"endTime":1101.67,"body":"use the evidence of your eyes"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1098.13,"endTime":1101.67,"body":"don't use the evidence of a"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1101.67,"endTime":1105.36,"body":"dogmatic approach because"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1101.67,"endTime":1105.36,"body":"really, our solutions need to be"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1105.36,"endTime":1108.42,"body":"tailored around the individual"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1105.36,"endTime":1108.42,"body":"needs of the individual"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1108.42,"endTime":1111.63,"body":"motivations of individual"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1108.42,"endTime":1111.63,"body":"children. What works for some"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1111.84,"endTime":1112.92,"body":"might not work for others."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1112.97,"endTime":1116.72,"body":"Oh, absolutely."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1112.97,"endTime":1116.72,"body":"We all know that there is no one"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1116.72,"endTime":1120.8,"body":"size fits all. And you know,"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1116.72,"endTime":1120.8,"body":"really good behaviour management"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1120.8,"endTime":1124.31,"body":"is trying lots of different"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1120.8,"endTime":1124.31,"body":"things, hitting upon things that"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1124.31,"endTime":1128.15,"body":"work even a little bit and doing"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1124.31,"endTime":1128.15,"body":"more of that. And then when that"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1128.15,"endTime":1131.63,"body":"doesn't work, trying something"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1128.15,"endTime":1131.63,"body":"else. It's always being dynamic"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1131.63,"endTime":1134.96,"body":"and coming up with new ideas and"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1131.63,"endTime":1134.96,"body":"new things. So yeah, never say"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1134.96,"endTime":1135.35,"body":"never."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1135.0,"endTime":1137.04,"body":"Of course,"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1135.0,"endTime":1137.04,"body":"knowing how to use reward"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1137.04,"endTime":1141.36,"body":"systems effectively is just one"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1137.04,"endTime":1141.36,"body":"part of classroom management,"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1141.45,"endTime":1144.72,"body":"which is where we look at"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1141.45,"endTime":1144.72,"body":"strategies that the adult uses"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1144.81,"endTime":1146.25,"body":"to manage the whole class."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1146.28,"endTime":1148.44,"body":"But sometimes"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1146.28,"endTime":1148.44,"body":"getting classroom management"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1148.44,"endTime":1152.37,"body":"rights can feel like a dark art,"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1148.44,"endTime":1152.37,"body":"especially if you've got a"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1152.37,"endTime":1156.0,"body":"tricky class. And that's where"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1152.37,"endTime":1156.0,"body":"the classroom management score"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1156.0,"endTime":1157.17,"body":"sheet comes in."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1157.59,"endTime":1160.32,"body":"We've put"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1157.59,"endTime":1160.32,"body":"together a checklist of 37"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1160.35,"endTime":1164.13,"body":"factors related to rewards and"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1160.35,"endTime":1164.13,"body":"routines, the environment, the"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1164.13,"endTime":1167.7,"body":"classroom, and more that all"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1164.13,"endTime":1167.7,"body":"have an impact on classroom"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1167.7,"endTime":1168.27,"body":"behaviour."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1168.3,"endTime":1170.88,"body":"So if you feel"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1168.3,"endTime":1170.88,"body":"that the behaviour of your class"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1170.88,"endTime":1174.69,"body":"could be better, using the"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1170.88,"endTime":1174.69,"body":"checklists can help to reveal"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1174.69,"endTime":1178.5,"body":"where some small but mighty"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1174.69,"endTime":1178.5,"body":"changes could improve the"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1178.5,"endTime":1182.28,"body":"behaviour of your class for the"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1178.5,"endTime":1182.28,"body":"better. And the good news is the"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1182.28,"endTime":1186.81,"body":"checklist is completely free. If"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1182.28,"endTime":1186.81,"body":"you haven't got yours yet, go to"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1186.9,"endTime":1191.97,"body":"beaconschoolsupport.co.uk. click"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1186.9,"endTime":1191.97,"body":"on the free resources option in"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1191.97,"endTime":1195.06,"body":"the menu and you'll find it near"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1191.97,"endTime":1195.06,"body":"the top of the page. It's"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1195.06,"endTime":1198.9,"body":"completely free. So go and get"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1195.06,"endTime":1198.9,"body":"yours today. And we'll drop a"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1198.9,"endTime":1200.64,"body":"link in the episode this"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1198.9,"endTime":1200.64,"body":"description."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1200.67,"endTime":1202.83,"body":"Finally, if"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1200.67,"endTime":1202.83,"body":"you've liked what you've heard"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1202.83,"endTime":1206.28,"body":"today, and you don't want to"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1202.83,"endTime":1206.28,"body":"miss the next episode, open up"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1206.28,"endTime":1210.15,"body":"your podcast app now and tap the"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1206.28,"endTime":1210.15,"body":"subscribe button subscribing is"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1210.15,"endTime":1213.21,"body":"completely free and then your"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1210.15,"endTime":1213.21,"body":"podcast app will automatically"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1213.21,"endTime":1217.41,"body":"download each and every episode"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1213.21,"endTime":1217.41,"body":"as it's released, so you never"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1217.44,"endTime":1220.95,"body":"miss a thing. And after"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1217.44,"endTime":1220.95,"body":"subscribing, well you'll feel as"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1220.95,"endTime":1224.37,"body":"chuffed as grandpa flump. After"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1220.95,"endTime":1224.37,"body":"he stretched his slumping"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1224.37,"endTime":1228.21,"body":"fingers warmed up his lips and"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1224.37,"endTime":1228.21,"body":"given his prize flummpit, an"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1228.21,"endTime":1229.62,"body":"extra special blow."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1230.46,"endTime":1232.41,"body":"That's one for"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1230.46,"endTime":1232.41,"body":"the children of the 80s there"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1232.41,"endTime":1233.22,"body":"Simon."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1233.46,"endTime":1236.04,"body":"If you don't"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1233.46,"endTime":1236.04,"body":"know what that means, search on"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1236.04,"endTime":1238.41,"body":"YouTube, you are in for a rare"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1236.04,"endTime":1238.41,"body":"treat."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1238.74,"endTime":1240.63,"body":"But before you"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1238.74,"endTime":1240.63,"body":"do that, I'd like to wish"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1240.63,"endTime":1243.84,"body":"everybody a successful week and"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1240.63,"endTime":1243.84,"body":"to say that we look forward to"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1243.84,"endTime":1247.41,"body":"seeing you next time on school"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1243.84,"endTime":1247.41,"body":"behaviour secrets, bye for now."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1247.74,"endTime":1248.31,"body":"Bye"}]}