{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":87.35,"endTime":90.53,"body":"So you've got all"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":87.35,"endTime":90.53,"body":"these different elements from"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":90.53,"endTime":95.0,"body":"the system, making it hard for"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":90.53,"endTime":95.0,"body":"those teachers just to operate."},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":95.03,"endTime":98.66,"body":"So yeah, they have their own"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":95.03,"endTime":98.66,"body":"problems of burnout and"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":98.69,"endTime":102.47,"body":"disaffection. And if they were"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":98.69,"endTime":102.47,"body":"already disengaged, like that"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":102.47,"endTime":104.72,"body":"doesn't help, but we need to"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":102.47,"endTime":104.72,"body":"rethink how we're actually"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":104.72,"endTime":107.78,"body":"putting things together."},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":104.72,"endTime":107.78,"body":"Recognising that human beings"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":107.78,"endTime":111.11,"body":"have a certain nature, that"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":107.78,"endTime":111.11,"body":"engagement and motivation works"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":111.11,"endTime":114.35,"body":"a certain way. That's how humans"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":111.11,"endTime":114.35,"body":"are. The research has been done"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":114.38,"endTime":117.08,"body":"cross culturally and everything"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":114.38,"endTime":117.08,"body":"else. Everyone has the needs."},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":117.11,"endTime":120.56,"body":"How do we actually operate to"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":117.11,"endTime":120.56,"body":"support those needs?"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":121.25,"endTime":123.85999999999999,"body":"Welcome to the"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":121.25,"endTime":123.85999999999999,"body":"school behaviour secrets"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":123.85999999999999,"endTime":127.28,"body":"podcast. I'm your host, Simon"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":123.85999999999999,"endTime":127.28,"body":"Currigan. My co host is Emma"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":127.28,"endTime":130.91,"body":"Shackleton and we're obsessed"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":127.28,"endTime":130.91,"body":"with helping teachers, school"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":130.91,"endTime":133.82,"body":"leaders, parents, and of course"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":130.91,"endTime":133.82,"body":"students, when classroom"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":133.82,"endTime":136.73,"body":"behaviour gets in the way of"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":133.82,"endTime":136.73,"body":"success. 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My name is Simon"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":161.06,"endTime":164.3,"body":"Currigan and welcome to a"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":164.3,"endTime":167.20999999999998,"body":"another episode of school"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":164.3,"endTime":167.20999999999998,"body":"behaviour secrets. While other"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":167.20999999999998,"endTime":170.66,"body":"educational podcasts are like"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":167.20999999999998,"endTime":170.66,"body":"the vehicular equivalent of a"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":170.66,"endTime":174.68,"body":"magnificent shiny sports car."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":170.66,"endTime":174.68,"body":"We're more like a go kart made"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":174.68,"endTime":178.13,"body":"from an old milk crate, metres"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":174.68,"endTime":178.13,"body":"of duct tape and the wheels we"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":178.13,"endTime":181.73,"body":"stole off your sister's pram and"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":178.13,"endTime":181.73,"body":"this thing's got no brakes or"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":181.73,"endTime":185.57,"body":"steering. So if you don't get"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":181.73,"endTime":185.57,"body":"out of our way, it's your shins"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":185.63,"endTime":188.6,"body":"that will pay the price. And on"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":185.63,"endTime":188.6,"body":"the Kart with me today is my co"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":188.6,"endTime":190.13,"body":"host Emma Shackleton. Hi, Emma."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":190.16,"endTime":193.22,"body":"Hi, Simon. I'm"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":190.16,"endTime":193.22,"body":"here and ready for today's ride."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":193.31,"endTime":196.64,"body":"Exciting times."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":193.31,"endTime":196.64,"body":"I'd like to start the show by"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":196.64,"endTime":198.14,"body":"asking you a question."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":198.17,"endTime":201.5,"body":"Simon. This has"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":198.17,"endTime":201.5,"body":"to end is becoming obsessive."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":201.68,"endTime":205.37,"body":"Every week. It's question after"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":201.68,"endTime":205.37,"body":"question. It's invasive."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":205.51999999999998,"endTime":209.08999999999997,"body":"I know. I'm"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":205.51999999999998,"endTime":209.08999999999997,"body":"sorry. There's just stuff I want"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":209.08999999999997,"endTime":209.48,"body":"to know"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":209.51,"endTime":211.82,"body":"Being asked"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":209.51,"endTime":211.82,"body":"questions every week like this."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":212.03,"endTime":213.8,"body":"It's all just getting a bit"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":212.03,"endTime":213.8,"body":"much."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":213.82999999999998,"endTime":215.87,"body":"So one quick"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":213.82999999999998,"endTime":215.87,"body":"question."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":215.93,"endTime":216.68,"body":"Oh, go on then."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":216.35,"endTime":218.72,"body":"What's one"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":216.35,"endTime":218.72,"body":"activity that you don't like"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":218.72,"endTime":219.95,"body":"doing and why?"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":220.34,"endTime":223.57999999999998,"body":"Just one? Well,"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":220.34,"endTime":223.57999999999998,"body":"the first thing that springs to"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":223.57999999999998,"endTime":227.96,"body":"mind is sitting in traffic jams."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":223.57999999999998,"endTime":227.96,"body":"The reason I don't like sitting"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":227.96,"endTime":231.92,"body":"in traffic jams as I'm sure most"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":227.96,"endTime":231.92,"body":"people don't either, I just find"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":231.92,"endTime":236.06,"body":"it's really boring. And it feels"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":231.92,"endTime":236.06,"body":"like a waste of valuable time."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":236.29999999999998,"endTime":240.38,"body":"There's so many more interesting"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":236.29999999999998,"endTime":240.38,"body":"and exciting things that I could"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":240.38,"endTime":243.85999999999999,"body":"be doing with that time. So I"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":240.38,"endTime":243.85999999999999,"body":"guess it's just frustrating"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":243.85999999999999,"endTime":246.53,"body":"really, because it feels really"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":243.85999999999999,"endTime":246.53,"body":"pointless. Anyway, why do you"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":246.53,"endTime":247.13,"body":"want to know?"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":247.16,"endTime":249.01999999999998,"body":"This week we're"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":247.16,"endTime":249.01999999999998,"body":"going to share my interview with"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":249.01999999999998,"endTime":254.54,"body":"Don Berg. Don is an expert on"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":249.01999999999998,"endTime":254.54,"body":"why students and teachers are"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":254.54,"endTime":257.78,"body":"becoming increasingly"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":254.54,"endTime":257.78,"body":"disconnected from education and"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":257.78,"endTime":261.2,"body":"what we can do to address that"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":257.78,"endTime":261.2,"body":"in schools, we look at what"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":261.2,"endTime":265.34000000000003,"body":"factors motivate kids to engage"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":261.2,"endTime":265.34000000000003,"body":"with their learning. And what"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":265.34000000000003,"endTime":268.97,"body":"this means in terms of practical"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":265.34000000000003,"endTime":268.97,"body":"strategies we can start using in"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":268.97,"endTime":270.68,"body":"the classroom right now."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":270.71000000000004,"endTime":272.81,"body":"Okay, but"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":270.71000000000004,"endTime":272.81,"body":"before I press play on that"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":272.81,"endTime":276.89,"body":"interview, I just like to ask"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":272.81,"endTime":276.89,"body":"our listeners one thing. If"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":276.89,"endTime":280.01,"body":"you've been enjoying the podcast"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":276.89,"endTime":280.01,"body":"or you find the contents"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":280.01,"endTime":284.36,"body":"valuable, please could you open"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":280.01,"endTime":284.36,"body":"up your podcast app and leave us"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":284.39,"endTime":288.89,"body":"a rating and review. When you do"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":284.39,"endTime":288.89,"body":"this. It tells the algorithm to"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":288.89,"endTime":292.15999999999997,"body":"share the podcast with more"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":288.89,"endTime":292.15999999999997,"body":"people to show it in their"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":292.15999999999997,"endTime":295.85,"body":"recommendations on their podcast"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":292.15999999999997,"endTime":295.85,"body":"feed, which helps the show to"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":295.85,"endTime":300.65,"body":"grow and helps more teachers,"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":295.85,"endTime":300.65,"body":"school leaders and parents. And"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":300.65,"endTime":304.13,"body":"now here's Simon's conversation"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":300.65,"endTime":304.13,"body":"with Don Berg."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":305.21000000000004,"endTime":308.24,"body":"So today I'm"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":305.21000000000004,"endTime":308.24,"body":"very excited to welcome Don Berg"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":308.24,"endTime":312.04999999999995,"body":"to the show. Don is an author,"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":308.24,"endTime":312.04999999999995,"body":"education psychology researcher,"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":312.08,"endTime":315.95,"body":"alternative education"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":312.08,"endTime":315.95,"body":"practitioner, leader and he has"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":315.98,"endTime":319.66999999999996,"body":"over 20 years of experience"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":315.98,"endTime":319.66999999999996,"body":"leading children in self"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":319.66999999999996,"endTime":323.87,"body":"directed educational settings."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":319.66999999999996,"endTime":323.87,"body":"In his brand new book Schooling"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":323.87,"endTime":328.13,"body":"for Holistic Equity, Don"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":323.87,"endTime":328.13,"body":"explores why we're seeing such"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":328.13,"endTime":331.46000000000004,"body":"high levels of student and"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":328.13,"endTime":331.46000000000004,"body":"teacher disengagement, the"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":331.46000000000004,"endTime":335.45,"body":"disconnect between educational"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":331.46000000000004,"endTime":335.45,"body":"goals and results and the faux"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":335.45,"endTime":338.93,"body":"achievement and shallow learning"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":335.45,"endTime":338.93,"body":"that prove woefully inadequate"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":338.93,"endTime":342.08,"body":"in preparing students for both"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":338.93,"endTime":342.08,"body":"higher education or the"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":342.08,"endTime":344.48,"body":"workforce. Don, I've got a"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":342.08,"endTime":344.48,"body":"feeling this is going to be a"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":344.48,"endTime":347.84000000000003,"body":"very, very interesting"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":344.48,"endTime":347.84000000000003,"body":"interview. Welcome to the show."},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":347.87,"endTime":348.77,"body":"Thank you for having"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":347.87,"endTime":348.77,"body":"me."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":348.79999999999995,"endTime":351.02,"body":"So let's start"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":348.79999999999995,"endTime":351.02,"body":"with, you say although schools"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":351.02,"endTime":355.82000000000005,"body":"often focus on the achievement"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":351.02,"endTime":355.82000000000005,"body":"gap, that the engagement gap is"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":355.82000000000005,"endTime":357.67999999999995,"body":"just as important. What do you"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":355.82000000000005,"endTime":357.67999999999995,"body":"mean by that?"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":357.71000000000004,"endTime":361.90999999999997,"body":"So I first ran into"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":357.71000000000004,"endTime":361.90999999999997,"body":"that idea in 2015. Because"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":361.93999999999994,"endTime":365.33000000000004,"body":"Carnegie Foundation, which is a"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":361.93999999999994,"endTime":365.33000000000004,"body":"huge funder of research and all"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":365.33000000000004,"endTime":368.39,"body":"kinds of reform and things and"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":365.33000000000004,"endTime":368.39,"body":"especially in the US, I'm not"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":368.39,"endTime":371.9,"body":"sure if it's international, but"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":368.39,"endTime":371.9,"body":"they put out a report called"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":371.9,"endTime":376.78999999999996,"body":"Motivation matters. And in that"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":371.9,"endTime":376.78999999999996,"body":"report, the quoted the scholars"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":376.78999999999996,"endTime":379.42999999999995,"body":"who were doing the basic"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":376.78999999999996,"endTime":379.42999999999995,"body":"research and said, you know,"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":379.46000000000004,"endTime":384.20000000000005,"body":"this is more important than the"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":379.46000000000004,"endTime":384.20000000000005,"body":"academic achievement gap because"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":384.20000000000005,"endTime":388.13,"body":"it's in a sense a prerequisite"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":384.20000000000005,"endTime":388.13,"body":"to that achievement. And there's"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":388.15999999999997,"endTime":391.85,"body":"better science to say how to"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":388.15999999999997,"endTime":391.85,"body":"solve it. So they said it's more"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":391.85,"endTime":395.29999999999995,"body":"solvable. And that's important"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":391.85,"endTime":395.29999999999995,"body":"too is there's a really clear"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":395.29999999999995,"endTime":398.12,"body":"scientific framework for"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":395.29999999999995,"endTime":398.12,"body":"understanding engagement."},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":398.15,"endTime":401.92999999999995,"body":"There's not a clear scientific"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":398.15,"endTime":401.92999999999995,"body":"understanding of academics and"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":401.92999999999995,"endTime":404.78,"body":"our acdemic achievement. So I"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":401.92999999999995,"endTime":404.78,"body":"think that's part of an"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":404.78,"endTime":408.11,"body":"important perspective on it is"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":404.78,"endTime":408.11,"body":"realised, there is some really"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":408.11,"endTime":411.47,"body":"good solid stuff to say, Okay,"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":408.11,"endTime":411.47,"body":"here's some steps you can take,"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":411.71000000000004,"endTime":414.59000000000003,"body":"here's how to understand why"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":411.71000000000004,"endTime":414.59000000000003,"body":"it's happening, and then proceed"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":414.59000000000003,"endTime":415.01,"body":"from there."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":415.03999999999996,"endTime":417.20000000000005,"body":"So what are we"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":415.03999999999996,"endTime":417.20000000000005,"body":"saying, if the kids aren't"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":417.28999999999996,"endTime":421.03999999999996,"body":"engaged and motivated by their"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":417.28999999999996,"endTime":421.03999999999996,"body":"work, then they aren't applying"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":421.03999999999996,"endTime":424.22,"body":"their talents and their skills"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":421.03999999999996,"endTime":424.22,"body":"and developing in the way we"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":424.22,"endTime":426.83000000000004,"body":"would want, as you know,"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":424.22,"endTime":426.83000000000004,"body":"professionals working in"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":426.83000000000004,"endTime":427.37,"body":"education?"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":427.4,"endTime":429.35,"body":"Exactly. And it's"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":427.4,"endTime":429.35,"body":"interesting, because the"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":429.38,"endTime":433.88,"body":"relationship between engagement"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":429.38,"endTime":433.88,"body":"and achievement is not linear."},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":433.97,"endTime":436.22,"body":"It's not like you get more"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":433.97,"endTime":436.22,"body":"engagement you automatically get"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":436.22,"endTime":438.67999999999995,"body":"more academic achievement."},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":436.22,"endTime":438.67999999999995,"body":"That's not the way it works. But"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":438.67999999999995,"endTime":441.74,"body":"it is true that there's probably"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":438.67999999999995,"endTime":441.74,"body":"some threshold beyond which"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":441.74,"endTime":444.5,"body":"like, if you don't get to that"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":441.74,"endTime":444.5,"body":"point, you're not going to get"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":444.5,"endTime":448.25,"body":"the achievement in a case. And"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":444.5,"endTime":448.25,"body":"but once you exceed that point,"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":448.4,"endTime":452.53999999999996,"body":"then if you've got skillful"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":448.4,"endTime":452.53999999999996,"body":"instruction and good clear"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":452.53999999999996,"endTime":454.73,"body":"management and things like that,"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":452.53999999999996,"endTime":454.73,"body":"then you can get some"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":454.73,"endTime":458.24,"body":"achievement to happen. It's like"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":454.73,"endTime":458.24,"body":"a foundation, but you have to"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":458.24,"endTime":459.98,"body":"build on it with other things."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":460.01,"endTime":463.49,"body":"How do we know"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":460.01,"endTime":463.49,"body":"for sure that pupil"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":463.49,"endTime":466.4,"body":"disengagement is a problem in"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":463.49,"endTime":466.4,"body":"the education system? Right now"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":466.4,"endTime":469.76,"body":"I speak to a lot of teachers and"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":466.4,"endTime":469.76,"body":"head teachers, and they sort of"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":469.78999999999996,"endTime":472.52,"body":"complain, or they're worried"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":469.78999999999996,"endTime":472.52,"body":"about the behaviour of"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":472.52,"endTime":475.01,"body":"individual children or cohorts"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":472.52,"endTime":475.01,"body":"of children. But that's very"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":475.01,"endTime":478.18999999999994,"body":"anecdotal. How do we know this"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":475.01,"endTime":478.18999999999994,"body":"is a kind of more widespread"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":478.18999999999994,"endTime":478.61,"body":"problem?"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":478.64,"endTime":480.43999999999994,"body":"So there's several"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":478.64,"endTime":480.43999999999994,"body":"threads of research. I mean, I"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":480.43999999999994,"endTime":483.74,"body":"mentioned the Motivation Matters"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":480.43999999999994,"endTime":483.74,"body":"report that was actually looking"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":483.74,"endTime":487.1,"body":"at a variety of sources. The"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":483.74,"endTime":487.1,"body":"field that I specifically study,"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":487.1,"endTime":491.24,"body":"self determination theory, has"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":487.1,"endTime":491.24,"body":"many decades of research as the"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":491.27,"endTime":495.47,"body":"concept of it got put together"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":491.27,"endTime":495.47,"body":"in the 80s or so, then they"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":495.47,"endTime":497.51,"body":"started to gather this"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":495.47,"endTime":497.51,"body":"information and say, oh, you"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":497.51,"endTime":500.09000000000003,"body":"know, and there's not just from"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":497.51,"endTime":500.09000000000003,"body":"this one perspective, but from"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":500.24,"endTime":503.09000000000003,"body":"everybody who looks at something"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":500.24,"endTime":503.09000000000003,"body":"related to engagement is seeing"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":503.09000000000003,"endTime":505.61,"body":"the same thing. One example,"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":503.09000000000003,"endTime":505.61,"body":"Gallup, they're not really"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":505.61,"endTime":508.82000000000005,"body":"considered scientists, but"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":505.61,"endTime":508.82000000000005,"body":"they're a credible source of"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":508.82000000000005,"endTime":512.99,"body":"information. And they started"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":508.82000000000005,"endTime":512.99,"body":"doing their student version of"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":512.99,"endTime":516.14,"body":"their studies on engagement in"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":512.99,"endTime":516.14,"body":"schools. And I've looked at"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":516.14,"endTime":519.35,"body":"seven years of their data, and"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":516.14,"endTime":519.35,"body":"it was all declining, they show"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":519.35,"endTime":523.4,"body":"70% of teachers in the US are"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":519.35,"endTime":523.4,"body":"simply disengaged, and they show"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":523.4,"endTime":526.76,"body":"the similar pattern in the"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":523.4,"endTime":526.76,"body":"students, it's now less than 50%"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":526.79,"endTime":529.34,"body":"are engaged. So we have a"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":526.79,"endTime":529.34,"body":"variety of sources to say, this"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":529.34,"endTime":531.77,"body":"is what's going on. This is a"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":529.34,"endTime":531.77,"body":"problem, and we should address"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":531.77,"endTime":534.65,"body":"it. So everybody's recognising"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":531.77,"endTime":534.65,"body":"it now."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":534.8,"endTime":536.51,"body":"I had an"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":534.8,"endTime":536.51,"body":"interesting conversation with a"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":536.63,"endTime":541.73,"body":"GP in the UK, actually. And he"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":536.63,"endTime":541.73,"body":"was saying, it's surprising how"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":541.73,"endTime":545.0,"body":"many teachers are on"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":541.73,"endTime":545.0,"body":"antidepressants,  very high"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":545.0,"endTime":548.72,"body":"levels. And if we've got"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":545.0,"endTime":548.72,"body":"teachers who are disengaged with"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":548.72,"endTime":553.82,"body":"the education system, how on"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":548.72,"endTime":553.82,"body":"earth the students going to be"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":553.82,"endTime":554.36,"body":"engaged?"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":554.35,"endTime":556.84,"body":"And there was"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":554.35,"endTime":556.84,"body":"research, I forget who it was,"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":556.84,"endTime":559.6899999999999,"body":"but I was in conversation with"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":556.84,"endTime":559.6899999999999,"body":"them. And they were saying, we"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":559.6899999999999,"endTime":563.32,"body":"have this research shows the"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":559.6899999999999,"endTime":563.32,"body":"engagement is contagious. And I"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":563.32,"endTime":567.31,"body":"had seen a study fascinating one"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":563.32,"endTime":567.31,"body":"from the France, they had a"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":567.31,"endTime":571.96,"body":"volunteer instructor teach kids"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":567.31,"endTime":571.96,"body":"blind basketball, how do you do"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":571.96,"endTime":574.45,"body":"that? You know, but the"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":571.96,"endTime":574.45,"body":"experimental condition was that"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":574.48,"endTime":578.17,"body":"they told the kids either they"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":574.48,"endTime":578.17,"body":"just said this is a volunteer,"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":578.65,"endTime":582.76,"body":"or this is a paid person. And"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":578.65,"endTime":582.76,"body":"they not only showed that the"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":582.76,"endTime":587.38,"body":"kids responded better to the"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":582.76,"endTime":587.38,"body":"volunteer, but that when the"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":587.38,"endTime":592.66,"body":"kids were then told to teach"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":587.38,"endTime":592.66,"body":"other kids blind basketball,"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":592.6899999999999,"endTime":597.64,"body":"their students then responded"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":592.6899999999999,"endTime":597.64,"body":"better to the volunteer teacher,"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":597.67,"endTime":600.52,"body":"so that the motivational"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":597.67,"endTime":600.52,"body":"consequences went two"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":600.52,"endTime":603.61,"body":"generations, it's clear,"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":600.52,"endTime":603.61,"body":"motivation and engagement are"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":603.61,"endTime":607.33,"body":"contagious. And when 70% of your"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":603.61,"endTime":607.33,"body":"teaching workforce is"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":607.33,"endTime":609.91,"body":"disengaged, surprise, surprise,"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":607.33,"endTime":609.91,"body":"that's going to be passed on."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":609.35,"endTime":612.5,"body":"I love that"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":609.35,"endTime":612.5,"body":"study. Because I think maybe"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":610.0,"endTime":610.27,"body":"Again."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":612.5,"endTime":615.02,"body":"what it's revealing, or part of"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":612.5,"endTime":615.02,"body":"what it's revealing is when we"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":615.02,"endTime":618.1700000000001,"body":"feel that we as a child, if"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":615.02,"endTime":618.1700000000001,"body":"someone's at the front of the"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":618.1700000000001,"endTime":621.98,"body":"classroom, the adult is there"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":618.1700000000001,"endTime":621.98,"body":"for intrinsic reasons. They love"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":621.98,"endTime":624.65,"body":"their subjects, they love to"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":621.98,"endTime":624.65,"body":"engage with the kids, they feel"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":624.65,"endTime":627.9200000000001,"body":"like they're making a difference"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":624.65,"endTime":627.9200000000001,"body":"in the world, then that's"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":627.95,"endTime":631.1,"body":"completely different from being"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":627.95,"endTime":631.1,"body":"told there's someone stood at"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":631.1,"endTime":633.2,"body":"the front of the room, you're a"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":631.1,"endTime":633.2,"body":"unit of work, they're being"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":633.2,"endTime":636.02,"body":"paid, it changes the environment"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":633.2,"endTime":636.02,"body":"and the culture in the"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":636.02,"endTime":636.5,"body":"classroom."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":636.35,"endTime":639.71,"body":"So what does"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":636.35,"endTime":639.71,"body":"engagement look like, I know"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":636.53,"endTime":637.28,"body":"Absolutely."},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":639.71,"endTime":643.97,"body":"that sounds like a dumb"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":639.71,"endTime":643.97,"body":"question, but you can be engaged"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":643.97,"endTime":647.9300000000001,"body":"in different ways, you can be"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":643.97,"endTime":647.9300000000001,"body":"engaged becasue you have an"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":647.9300000000001,"endTime":650.8100000000001,"body":"intrinsic joy, what do we mean"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":647.9300000000001,"endTime":650.8100000000001,"body":"by that?"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":650.35,"endTime":653.5,"body":"Because that's"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":650.35,"endTime":653.5,"body":"actually a developing process."},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":653.53,"endTime":657.01,"body":"For decades, there was this"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":653.53,"endTime":657.01,"body":"model of a three part thing, you"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":657.01,"endTime":661.03,"body":"know, behavioural engagement,"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":657.01,"endTime":661.03,"body":"emotional engagement, and"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":661.03,"endTime":664.87,"body":"cognitive engagement. 10 years"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":661.03,"endTime":664.87,"body":"ago, there was an additional"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":664.87,"endTime":668.71,"body":"element added called a agentic"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":664.87,"endTime":668.71,"body":"engagement. So the behavioural"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":668.71,"endTime":672.19,"body":"engagement, that's the obvious"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":668.71,"endTime":672.19,"body":"stuff, you see it, I can observe"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":672.19,"endTime":674.86,"body":"whether you're engaged or not."},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":672.19,"endTime":674.86,"body":"That's just behavioural"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":674.86,"endTime":678.19,"body":"engagement. So emotional"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":674.86,"endTime":678.19,"body":"engagement means that when"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":678.19,"endTime":681.97,"body":"you're in that activity, you're"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":678.19,"endTime":681.97,"body":"feeling neutral to positive"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":681.97,"endTime":686.23,"body":"emotions, you're having a sense"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":681.97,"endTime":686.23,"body":"of it, that's good. And so the"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":686.26,"endTime":689.26,"body":"negative of that is having"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":686.26,"endTime":689.26,"body":"negative emotions and that's not"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":689.26,"endTime":692.9200000000001,"body":"good and you're emotionally"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":689.26,"endTime":692.9200000000001,"body":"disengaged, then the cognitive"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":692.9200000000001,"endTime":695.62,"body":"engagement means that you're"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":692.9200000000001,"endTime":695.62,"body":"using more sophisticated"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":695.62,"endTime":699.28,"body":"strategies to learn from that"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":695.62,"endTime":699.28,"body":"activity, and whatever it is"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":699.28,"endTime":703.03,"body":"you're doing. So the cognitive"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":699.28,"endTime":703.03,"body":"engagement is how you're"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":703.03,"endTime":707.77,"body":"applying yourself. Agentic"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":703.03,"endTime":707.77,"body":"engagement is the one where it's"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":707.77,"endTime":712.21,"body":"actually a social process. It's"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":707.77,"endTime":712.21,"body":"how you put yourself, your"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":712.21,"endTime":717.46,"body":"opinions, your ideas, who you"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":712.21,"endTime":717.46,"body":"are into the situation in order"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":717.46,"endTime":721.0,"body":"to get more out of it. So part"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":717.46,"endTime":721.0,"body":"of the way in agentic engagement"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":721.0,"endTime":723.4,"body":"works is that if you put"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":721.0,"endTime":723.4,"body":"something out and you get"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":723.4,"endTime":727.27,"body":"something back, so it's a social"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":723.4,"endTime":727.27,"body":"process, and that's the newest"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":727.27,"endTime":731.08,"body":"one, I mean, 10 years in the"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":727.27,"endTime":731.08,"body":"literature, but you know, the"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":731.08,"endTime":734.08,"body":"mainstream of education doesn't"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":731.08,"endTime":734.08,"body":"even use the word. For us in the"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":734.08,"endTime":737.26,"body":"psychology world, you kind of"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":734.08,"endTime":737.26,"body":"have need support in the"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":737.26,"endTime":740.8000000000001,"body":"environment, then you have some"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":737.26,"endTime":740.8000000000001,"body":"level of need satisfaction that"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":740.8000000000001,"endTime":745.36,"body":"follows from that, then you have"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":740.8000000000001,"endTime":745.36,"body":"a motivational result. And then"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":745.36,"endTime":748.78,"body":"that generates your engagement."},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":745.36,"endTime":748.78,"body":"And then engagement is what"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":748.78,"endTime":751.21,"body":"produces the quality of learning"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":748.78,"endTime":751.21,"body":"that we're actually looking for."},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":751.5400000000001,"endTime":756.13,"body":"And it's all self reinforcing."},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":751.5400000000001,"endTime":756.13,"body":"So and contagious, you know, the"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":756.16,"endTime":758.95,"body":"teacher and the student are"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":756.16,"endTime":758.95,"body":"interacting and saying, If I'm"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":758.95,"endTime":762.58,"body":"putting myself into this, then I"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":758.95,"endTime":762.58,"body":"get some investment back. I"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":762.58,"endTime":765.3100000000001,"body":"mean, that's the way it's"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":762.58,"endTime":765.3100000000001,"body":"ideally. Now, of course, in a"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":765.4,"endTime":768.58,"body":"class, if I'm the teacher, and"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":765.4,"endTime":768.58,"body":"I'm looking at all these kids,"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":768.82,"endTime":771.88,"body":"there's these two over there who"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":768.82,"endTime":771.88,"body":"are super excited, but then"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":771.88,"endTime":774.94,"body":"there's six over here who are"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":771.88,"endTime":774.94,"body":"just like, You're bothering me"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":774.94,"endTime":779.11,"body":"go away. You know, it doesn't"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":774.94,"endTime":779.11,"body":"quite work out. So as teachers,"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":779.11,"endTime":781.8100000000001,"body":"not the only one who's"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":779.11,"endTime":781.8100000000001,"body":"determining how this environment"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":781.9,"endTime":784.36,"body":"is going to work. But that's the"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":781.9,"endTime":784.36,"body":"brilliance of a brilliant"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":784.36,"endTime":789.5500000000001,"body":"teacher is like, Okay, can I get"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":784.36,"endTime":789.5500000000001,"body":"something where even if the ones"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":789.5500000000001,"endTime":792.76,"body":"who are gonna disengage, and I"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":789.5500000000001,"endTime":792.76,"body":"can't help that, at least aren't"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":792.76,"endTime":796.15,"body":"bugging anybody else, you know,"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":792.76,"endTime":796.15,"body":"they respect the fact that"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":796.15,"endTime":799.15,"body":"there's something going on, and"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":796.15,"endTime":799.15,"body":"they'll just tune out without"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":799.15,"endTime":802.24,"body":"actually being disruptive. I was"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":799.15,"endTime":802.24,"body":"reading Rafe Esquith. He's a"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":802.24,"endTime":805.9,"body":"best selling author, teacher who"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":802.24,"endTime":805.9,"body":"taught third or fourth grade in"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":805.9,"endTime":809.26,"body":"Los Angeles. But he talked about"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":805.9,"endTime":809.26,"body":"like, let's be real here. He's"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":809.26,"endTime":812.14,"body":"recognised as a brilliant"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":809.26,"endTime":812.14,"body":"teacher, he does not reach every"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":812.14,"endTime":816.22,"body":"student. But he is so respected"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":812.14,"endTime":816.22,"body":"by his students that the ones"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":816.22,"endTime":819.4,"body":"who are tuned out and not really"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":816.22,"endTime":819.4,"body":"learning are just not bugging"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":819.4,"endTime":821.95,"body":"anybody else. So that's an"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":819.4,"endTime":821.95,"body":"important part to understand,"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":821.35,"endTime":824.2900000000001,"body":"I think there's"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":821.35,"endTime":824.2900000000001,"body":"a bit of a myth, certainly in"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":821.95,"endTime":822.34,"body":"too."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":824.2900000000001,"endTime":827.14,"body":"the UK at the moment that there"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":824.2900000000001,"endTime":827.14,"body":"is one simple solution to"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":827.14,"endTime":828.4,"body":"behaviour and engagement and"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":827.14,"endTime":828.4,"body":"motivation. And I think what"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":828.4,"endTime":831.5500000000001,"body":"you've highlighted there is"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":828.4,"endTime":831.5500000000001,"body":"different children have"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":832.21,"endTime":835.72,"body":"different needs and different"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":832.21,"endTime":835.72,"body":"interests, different strokes for"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":835.72,"endTime":839.89,"body":"different folks, to some extent,"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":835.72,"endTime":839.89,"body":"and an experienced, good teacher"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":839.89,"endTime":844.3000000000001,"body":"in inverted commas there can"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":839.89,"endTime":844.3000000000001,"body":"adapt and work with the children"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":844.3000000000001,"endTime":847.39,"body":"they have, rather than just"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":844.3000000000001,"endTime":847.39,"body":"blaming the kids and saying,"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":847.39,"endTime":850.24,"body":"Well, I've got this sort of one"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":847.39,"endTime":850.24,"body":"approach, and everyone needs to"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":850.24,"endTime":851.2900000000001,"body":"fit into this box."},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":851.32,"endTime":851.71,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":851.74,"endTime":853.5400000000001,"body":"It's that"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":851.74,"endTime":853.5400000000001,"body":"individualised approach, isn't"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":853.5400000000001,"endTime":856.33,"body":"it? Before we get on to"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":853.5400000000001,"endTime":856.33,"body":"increasing engagement. What does"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":856.33,"endTime":859.48,"body":"the data say about why are we"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":856.33,"endTime":859.48,"body":"seeing greater disengagement?"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":859.48,"endTime":862.1800000000001,"body":"We've talked about it sort of"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":859.48,"endTime":862.1800000000001,"body":"tailing off, and the data is"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":862.1800000000001,"endTime":864.73,"body":"there. So why is there more"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":862.1800000000001,"endTime":864.73,"body":"disengagement, this divide"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":864.73,"endTime":867.28,"body":"between students and their"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":864.73,"endTime":867.28,"body":"teachers and their learning? And"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":867.28,"endTime":869.59,"body":"their teachers on their"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":867.28,"endTime":869.59,"body":"learning? Interestingly enough,"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":869.77,"endTime":872.08,"body":"what's happening? What are the"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":869.77,"endTime":872.08,"body":"key factors that we think are"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":872.08,"endTime":873.94,"body":"driving that right now?"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":874.0400000000001,"endTime":878.24,"body":"It's not, I would say,"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":874.0400000000001,"endTime":878.24,"body":"an individual level phenomenon,"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":878.36,"endTime":881.3000000000001,"body":"what you're seeing is that there"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":878.36,"endTime":881.3000000000001,"body":"are vulnerabilities that are"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":881.3000000000001,"endTime":885.26,"body":"simply being exposed that were"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":881.3000000000001,"endTime":885.26,"body":"already there. When I look at"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":885.26,"endTime":890.0600000000001,"body":"it, my sensibility is what are"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":885.26,"endTime":890.0600000000001,"body":"the system factors that are kind"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":890.0600000000001,"endTime":893.3000000000001,"body":"of tying the teachers one hand"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":890.0600000000001,"endTime":893.3000000000001,"body":"behind their back, you know, and"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":893.3000000000001,"endTime":896.33,"body":"for instance, age grading,"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":893.3000000000001,"endTime":896.33,"body":"putting kids the same age"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":896.36,"endTime":900.95,"body":"together. Now, that seemed like"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":896.36,"endTime":900.95,"body":"a good idea 100 years ago, and"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":900.95,"endTime":902.84,"body":"in the US, it seemed like a good"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":900.95,"endTime":902.84,"body":"idea. Because we had this"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":902.84,"endTime":906.14,"body":"population explosion, we had"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":902.84,"endTime":906.14,"body":"crazy numbers of kids showing up"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":906.14,"endTime":908.72,"body":"in these urban cities, and they"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":906.14,"endTime":908.72,"body":"had to do something with them."},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":908.75,"endTime":912.2,"body":"So they age batch them. Well,"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":908.75,"endTime":912.2,"body":"how does that have anything to"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":912.2,"endTime":914.45,"body":"do with education? When you"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":912.2,"endTime":914.45,"body":"really think about what"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":914.45,"endTime":918.65,"body":"education is, that's just not"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":914.45,"endTime":918.65,"body":"relevant. Even as a management"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":918.65,"endTime":921.6800000000001,"body":"strategy, it's questionable, but"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":918.65,"endTime":921.6800000000001,"body":"I could see why they went that"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":921.6800000000001,"endTime":925.94,"body":"direction. But now today, we"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":921.6800000000001,"endTime":925.94,"body":"need to rethink that. How does"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":925.97,"endTime":931.37,"body":"the child really learn something"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":925.97,"endTime":931.37,"body":"more skilled? When by"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":931.37,"endTime":934.28,"body":"definition, the people"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":931.37,"endTime":934.28,"body":"surrounding them, the majority"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":934.28,"endTime":939.38,"body":"in the room are not skilled?"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":934.28,"endTime":939.38,"body":"Like that doesn't make sense. So"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":939.41,"endTime":942.47,"body":"we're looking at structural"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":939.41,"endTime":942.47,"body":"factors like that. That's why"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":942.47,"endTime":945.8000000000001,"body":"Jean Twenge's research shows a"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":942.47,"endTime":945.8000000000001,"body":"steady decline because there's"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":945.8000000000001,"endTime":948.26,"body":"simply some ways that our"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":945.8000000000001,"endTime":948.26,"body":"teachers hands were tied by in"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":948.26,"endTime":951.6800000000001,"body":"their back, just from the way"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":948.26,"endTime":951.6800000000001,"body":"things were organised for other"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":951.6800000000001,"endTime":955.34,"body":"reasons, besides actual"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":951.6800000000001,"endTime":955.34,"body":"education. And then you have now"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":955.37,"endTime":959.72,"body":"things like COVID showing up"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":955.37,"endTime":959.72,"body":"and, and blasting that system"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":959.72,"endTime":962.9300000000001,"body":"into a whole new realm. Like it"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":959.72,"endTime":962.9300000000001,"body":"just oh, we have to do"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":962.9300000000001,"endTime":966.6800000000001,"body":"everything virtually. Well,we"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":962.9300000000001,"endTime":966.6800000000001,"body":"don't even know what that means,"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":966.71,"endTime":969.74,"body":"in many ways, because that just"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":966.71,"endTime":969.74,"body":"wasn't that's recent"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":969.74,"endTime":972.6800000000001,"body":"development. So many teachers"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":969.74,"endTime":972.6800000000001,"body":"were just catching up. They"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":972.6800000000001,"endTime":975.53,"body":"basically just transfer what"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":972.6800000000001,"endTime":975.53,"body":"they're trying to do into the"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":975.5600000000001,"endTime":978.83,"body":"format of a computer. And if"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":975.5600000000001,"endTime":978.83,"body":"what they were doing wasn't that"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":978.83,"endTime":982.61,"body":"great or effective to begin"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":978.83,"endTime":982.61,"body":"with, because their hand was"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":982.61,"endTime":984.77,"body":"tied on the back, not their own"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":982.61,"endTime":984.77,"body":"fault. I'm not saying they lack"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":984.77,"endTime":988.01,"body":"skills. I'm saying they had"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":984.77,"endTime":988.01,"body":"their hand tied behind their"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":988.01,"endTime":991.7,"body":"back in the first place. And"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":988.01,"endTime":991.7,"body":"then you throw this other wrench"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":991.7,"endTime":994.64,"body":"in the works. And it's like,"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":991.7,"endTime":994.64,"body":"okay, now you stab him in the"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":994.64,"endTime":999.11,"body":"back, too. So you've got all"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":994.64,"endTime":999.11,"body":"these different elements from"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":999.11,"endTime":1003.61,"body":"the system, making it hard for"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":999.11,"endTime":1003.61,"body":"those teachers just to operate."},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1003.64,"endTime":1007.24,"body":"So yeah, they have their own"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1003.64,"endTime":1007.24,"body":"problems of burnout and"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1007.27,"endTime":1011.08,"body":"disaffection. And if they were"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1007.27,"endTime":1011.08,"body":"already disengaged, like, that"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1011.08,"endTime":1013.33,"body":"doesn't help, but we need to"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1011.08,"endTime":1013.33,"body":"rethink how we're actually"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1013.33,"endTime":1016.36,"body":"putting things together,"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1013.33,"endTime":1016.36,"body":"recognising that human beings"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1016.36,"endTime":1019.69,"body":"have a certain nature, the"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1016.36,"endTime":1019.69,"body":"engagement and motivation works"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1019.69,"endTime":1022.9300000000001,"body":"a certain way. That's how humans"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1019.69,"endTime":1022.9300000000001,"body":"are, the research has been done"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1022.9300000000001,"endTime":1025.99,"body":"across culturally and everything"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1022.9300000000001,"endTime":1025.99,"body":"else. Everyone has the needs."},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1026.05,"endTime":1029.83,"body":"How do we actually operate to"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1026.05,"endTime":1029.83,"body":"support those needs? Well, it's"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1029.83,"endTime":1032.59,"body":"not going to look like age"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1029.83,"endTime":1032.59,"body":"graded, it probably doesn't look"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1032.59,"endTime":1035.68,"body":"like letter grades. The other"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1032.59,"endTime":1035.68,"body":"form of grades like is that"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1035.68,"endTime":1038.53,"body":"really a useful form of"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1035.68,"endTime":1038.53,"body":"feedback, and educationally"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1038.53,"endTime":1042.82,"body":"relevant form of feedback, and"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1038.53,"endTime":1042.82,"body":"not so much simplifying down to"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1042.82,"endTime":1045.85,"body":"a letter is helpful for the"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1042.82,"endTime":1045.85,"body":"system to try and sort people"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1045.85,"endTime":1049.99,"body":"and do a variety of tasks that"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1045.85,"endTime":1049.99,"body":"have nothing to do with the way"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1049.99,"endTime":1052.42,"body":"the student and the teacher are"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1049.99,"endTime":1052.42,"body":"interacting, which is where the"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1052.42,"endTime":1055.03,"body":"education is really happening."},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1052.42,"endTime":1055.03,"body":"So yeah, there's a number of"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1055.03,"endTime":1058.48,"body":"things that one, were already in"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1055.03,"endTime":1058.48,"body":"place, and then they just get"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1058.51,"endTime":1061.3899999999999,"body":"exacerbated by an event like"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1058.51,"endTime":1061.3899999999999,"body":"COVID."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1061.42,"endTime":1064.57,"body":"So those are the"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1061.42,"endTime":1064.57,"body":"structural problems that are"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1064.6,"endTime":1068.05,"body":"propelling this disengagement."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1064.6,"endTime":1068.05,"body":"If we're looking at engagement"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1068.05,"endTime":1070.57,"body":"in schools at a holistic level"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1068.05,"endTime":1070.57,"body":"across the whole school, then"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1070.57,"endTime":1073.78,"body":"what do we as teachers and"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1070.57,"endTime":1073.78,"body":"school leaders need to actually"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1073.78,"endTime":1076.81,"body":"put in place and think about in"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1073.78,"endTime":1076.81,"body":"terms of our policies and our"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1076.81,"endTime":1079.48,"body":"practice to actually make that"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1076.81,"endTime":1079.48,"body":"happen and increase that"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1079.48,"endTime":1079.96,"body":"engagement?"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1079.99,"endTime":1082.24,"body":"So this is something"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1079.99,"endTime":1082.24,"body":"that I think there has been a"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1082.24,"endTime":1086.17,"body":"serious gap in what was being"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1082.24,"endTime":1086.17,"body":"done and what's kind of"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1086.17,"endTime":1090.07,"body":"available to be done. And so I'm"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1086.17,"endTime":1090.07,"body":"actually working on a project"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1090.07,"endTime":1094.33,"body":"right now to create what I call"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1090.07,"endTime":1094.33,"body":"Instant Climate. So climate is"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1094.33,"endTime":1096.22,"body":"probably something you're"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1094.33,"endTime":1096.22,"body":"familiar with classroom climate,"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1096.22,"endTime":1100.03,"body":"school climate. In the US,"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1096.22,"endTime":1100.03,"body":"there's been even federal"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1100.03,"endTime":1104.26,"body":"recognition of that as something"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1100.03,"endTime":1104.26,"body":"valuable to do like, oh, let's"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1104.26,"endTime":1107.02,"body":"look at climate, let's include"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1104.26,"endTime":1107.02,"body":"it in an accountability measures"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1107.02,"endTime":1109.51,"body":"and things like that. But as"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1107.02,"endTime":1109.51,"body":"I've been looking around, and"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1109.51,"endTime":1112.4199999999998,"body":"I've looked at youth truth and"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1109.51,"endTime":1112.4199999999998,"body":"Panorama, and a few other"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1112.48,"endTime":1116.1399999999999,"body":"climate instruments that are"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1112.48,"endTime":1116.1399999999999,"body":"big, I mean, one climate isn't"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1116.1399999999999,"endTime":1121.09,"body":"universal in any way here as a"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1116.1399999999999,"endTime":1121.09,"body":"measure. But when it's used,"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1121.2099999999998,"endTime":1125.1999999999998,"body":"it's usually used collect data"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1121.2099999999998,"endTime":1125.1999999999998,"body":"annually, maybe twice a year if"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1125.1999999999998,"endTime":1128.35,"body":"you're enlightened, and then see"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1125.1999999999998,"endTime":1128.35,"body":"what happens. Well, from a"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1128.35,"endTime":1130.6899999999998,"body":"teacher's perspective, from a"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1128.35,"endTime":1130.6899999999998,"body":"classroom perspective,"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1130.9599999999998,"endTime":1133.75,"body":"collecting the data once a year"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1130.9599999999998,"endTime":1133.75,"body":"is not very helpful. So what I'm"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1133.75,"endTime":1137.1699999999998,"body":"working on, which I call instant"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1133.75,"endTime":1137.1699999999998,"body":"climate is something to be able"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1137.1699999999998,"endTime":1139.6299999999999,"body":"to collect that data. And in"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1137.1699999999998,"endTime":1139.6299999999999,"body":"theory weekly, you probably"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1139.6299999999999,"endTime":1142.4499999999998,"body":"that's too much, but maybe every"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1139.6299999999999,"endTime":1142.4499999999998,"body":"two weeks, maybe every month,"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1142.84,"endTime":1146.62,"body":"where you can say, hey, I did"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1142.84,"endTime":1146.62,"body":"something, and I got the"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1146.62,"endTime":1149.7099999999998,"body":"feedback that I need to work on"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1146.62,"endTime":1149.7099999999998,"body":"this or this. And then you take"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1149.7099999999998,"endTime":1153.52,"body":"action and then collect data a"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1149.7099999999998,"endTime":1153.52,"body":"few weeks or a month later and"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1153.55,"endTime":1157.1499999999999,"body":"see what happened. So it's"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1153.55,"endTime":1157.1499999999999,"body":"actually a tool that's meant to"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1157.1499999999999,"endTime":1161.1999999999998,"body":"be useful in the classroom,"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1157.1499999999999,"endTime":1161.1999999999998,"body":"rather than it's more formative"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1161.1999999999998,"endTime":1164.1699999999998,"body":"and summative, if those"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1161.1999999999998,"endTime":1164.1699999999998,"body":"summative measures are in place,"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1164.1699999999998,"endTime":1165.9699999999998,"body":"if your school is already"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1164.1699999999998,"endTime":1165.9699999999998,"body":"collecting those annual things,"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1166.0,"endTime":1168.61,"body":"that's great, you shouldn't"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1166.0,"endTime":1168.61,"body":"replace it. But you should keep"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1168.61,"endTime":1171.1899999999998,"body":"doing that. And that will be the"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1168.61,"endTime":1171.1899999999998,"body":"evidence that shows that what"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1171.1899999999998,"endTime":1173.74,"body":"you were doing at a smaller"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1171.1899999999998,"endTime":1173.74,"body":"scale in the classroom was"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1173.35,"endTime":1174.3999999999999,"body":"So is this like"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1173.35,"endTime":1174.3999999999999,"body":"a dashboard with lights on it"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1173.74,"endTime":1174.34,"body":"actually working."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1174.4299999999998,"endTime":1175.54,"body":"that lets you kind of know in"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1174.4299999999998,"endTime":1175.54,"body":"real time what's happening in"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1175.6299999999999,"endTime":1176.4399999999998,"body":"terms of your classroom climate."},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1176.35,"endTime":1183.8799999999999,"body":"That's the idea. It's"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1176.35,"endTime":1183.8799999999999,"body":"based on a system called"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1183.8799999999999,"endTime":1187.12,"body":"clickers where the kids are able"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1183.8799999999999,"endTime":1187.12,"body":"to answer they actually just"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1187.12,"endTime":1190.3,"body":"answered with QR codes. And then"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1187.12,"endTime":1190.3,"body":"the teachers themselves can"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1190.3,"endTime":1192.61,"body":"process the data. So that's"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1190.3,"endTime":1192.61,"body":"another thing, is that a lot of"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1192.61,"endTime":1195.31,"body":"these other ones are big, fancy"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1192.61,"endTime":1195.31,"body":"things. The reason you only do"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1195.31,"endTime":1197.26,"body":"it once or twice a year is"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1195.31,"endTime":1197.26,"body":"because there's so much effort"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1197.26,"endTime":1200.29,"body":"involved in processing that"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1197.26,"endTime":1200.29,"body":"data. This is something that the"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1200.29,"endTime":1203.74,"body":"teacher can collect the data."},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1200.29,"endTime":1203.74,"body":"It's not instantly available,"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1203.74,"endTime":1208.0,"body":"like in the real time moment."},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1203.74,"endTime":1208.0,"body":"But they can process that data"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1208.09,"endTime":1211.1799999999998,"body":"in an hour that evening and have"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1208.09,"endTime":1211.1799999999998,"body":"a good idea of what they should"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1211.1799999999998,"endTime":1213.4599999999998,"body":"be doing the next day. And then"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1211.1799999999998,"endTime":1213.4599999999998,"body":"other thing is that the"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1213.49,"endTime":1217.57,"body":"traditional measures are vague"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1213.49,"endTime":1217.57,"body":"and not very helpful. I had a"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1217.57,"endTime":1221.29,"body":"principal pull up her panorama"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1217.57,"endTime":1221.29,"body":"app at the ASCD conference in"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1221.29,"endTime":1225.9399999999998,"body":"Chicago. And I Oh, nice, you"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1221.29,"endTime":1225.9399999999998,"body":"know, you've got graphs. Oh,"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1225.9399999999998,"endTime":1227.62,"body":"that one looks like it's going"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1225.9399999999998,"endTime":1227.62,"body":"down. What are you gonna do"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1227.62,"endTime":1229.12,"body":"about that? And she's like, ugh?"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1231.1299999999999,"endTime":1232.6599999999999,"body":"That is the"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1231.1299999999999,"endTime":1232.6599999999999,"body":"thing with data, knowing"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1232.6599999999999,"endTime":1235.36,"body":"something is less powerful than"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1232.6599999999999,"endTime":1235.36,"body":"knowing what to do as a"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1235.36,"endTime":1236.4399999999998,"body":"consequence of that data."},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1236.4399999999998,"endTime":1237.04,"body":"Exactly."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1237.07,"endTime":1238.9599999999998,"body":"I want to just"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1237.07,"endTime":1238.9599999999998,"body":"unpack something you were saying"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1238.9599999999998,"endTime":1241.12,"body":"there. So we've got the idea"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1238.9599999999998,"endTime":1241.12,"body":"that we're going to classroom"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1241.12,"endTime":1244.0,"body":"climate, and this is not"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1241.12,"endTime":1244.0,"body":"something ephemeral, this system"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1244.0,"endTime":1246.6699999999998,"body":"that that kind of be measured."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1244.0,"endTime":1246.6699999999998,"body":"And we can use this formative"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1246.6699999999998,"endTime":1250.54,"body":"assessment, you started to use"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1246.6699999999998,"endTime":1250.54,"body":"terms like autonomy and"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1250.54,"endTime":1253.7199999999998,"body":"competence there. So"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1250.54,"endTime":1253.7199999999998,"body":"specifically, what are the"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1253.7199999999998,"endTime":1258.4299999999998,"body":"factors, the things that we can"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1253.7199999999998,"endTime":1258.4299999999998,"body":"do and encourage as the teacher"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1258.4599999999998,"endTime":1261.58,"body":"in the room to improve that"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1258.4599999999998,"endTime":1261.58,"body":"climate? What did you mean by"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1261.58,"endTime":1264.79,"body":"those terms? What should we be"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1261.58,"endTime":1264.79,"body":"looking at sort of specifically?"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1264.74,"endTime":1268.9399999999998,"body":"So autonomy,"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1264.74,"endTime":1268.9399999999998,"body":"competence and relatedness are"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1268.9399999999998,"endTime":1274.61,"body":"primary human needs. So that"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1268.9399999999998,"endTime":1274.61,"body":"means that like air, water, food"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1274.61,"endTime":1278.6299999999999,"body":"shelter, which you die from, if"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1274.61,"endTime":1278.6299999999999,"body":"you don't get met, and sleep,"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1278.6599999999999,"endTime":1281.6,"body":"which doesn't kill you, but is"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1278.6599999999999,"endTime":1281.6,"body":"still a need. Those are those"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1281.6,"endTime":1285.86,"body":"kinds of needs. That's our"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1281.6,"endTime":1285.86,"body":"primary universal human needs."},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1285.8899999999999,"endTime":1289.79,"body":"So what that means Is that, like"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1285.8899999999999,"endTime":1289.79,"body":"I said, the model needs"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1289.82,"endTime":1292.9099999999999,"body":"motivation, engagement,"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1289.82,"endTime":1292.9099999999999,"body":"learning, those are some very"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1292.9099999999999,"endTime":1296.24,"body":"specific things there are"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1292.9099999999999,"endTime":1296.24,"body":"measurable and autonomy, for"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1296.24,"endTime":1300.32,"body":"instance, is the sense that you"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1296.24,"endTime":1300.32,"body":"are in control of the activities"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1300.32,"endTime":1304.1599999999999,"body":"you do. It doesn't mean you"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1300.32,"endTime":1304.1599999999999,"body":"necessarily chose them. It means"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1304.1599999999999,"endTime":1307.85,"body":"that whoever chose them, you"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1304.1599999999999,"endTime":1307.85,"body":"trust that person. And turns out"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1307.85,"endTime":1310.34,"body":"most people trust themselves"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1307.85,"endTime":1310.34,"body":"more than they trust anybody"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1310.34,"endTime":1310.61,"body":"else."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1310.62,"endTime":1313.4699999999998,"body":"So would this be"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1310.62,"endTime":1313.4699999999998,"body":"the idea that the more choice"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1313.4699999999998,"endTime":1317.28,"body":"you have over how a task is"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1313.4699999999998,"endTime":1317.28,"body":"completed, the more committed"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1317.28,"endTime":1319.59,"body":"and engaged you feel with the"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1317.28,"endTime":1319.59,"body":"task? Is that the kind of...?"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1319.62,"endTime":1322.7099999999998,"body":"Sort of, so you have"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1319.62,"endTime":1322.7099999999998,"body":"to be careful about that"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1322.7099999999998,"endTime":1326.07,"body":"statement. Because yes, it's"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1322.7099999999998,"endTime":1326.07,"body":"kind of true, as long as you're"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1326.07,"endTime":1331.1699999999998,"body":"matching the skill level of the"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1326.07,"endTime":1331.1699999999998,"body":"person with the what they're"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1331.1699999999998,"endTime":1334.7099999999998,"body":"expected to do. It doesn't do"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1331.1699999999998,"endTime":1334.7099999999998,"body":"any good for a five year old to"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1334.7099999999998,"endTime":1338.82,"body":"say, I'm gonna build a rocket."},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1334.7099999999998,"endTime":1338.82,"body":"Yeah, right? It there may be a"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1338.82,"endTime":1341.1299999999999,"body":"brilliant five year old out"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1338.82,"endTime":1341.1299999999999,"body":"there who is ready to do"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1341.1299999999999,"endTime":1344.4599999999998,"body":"rockets, but it's like, you"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1341.1299999999999,"endTime":1344.4599999999998,"body":"really have to be careful about"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1344.4599999999998,"endTime":1348.6899999999998,"body":"what you give them choices over."},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1344.4599999999998,"endTime":1348.6899999999998,"body":"So you have to have a sense of"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1348.7199999999998,"endTime":1352.1699999999998,"body":"choice that's are appropriate to"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1348.7199999999998,"endTime":1352.1699999999998,"body":"the level of skill and"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1352.1699999999998,"endTime":1356.6999999999998,"body":"understanding that are present"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1352.1699999999998,"endTime":1356.6999999999998,"body":"in that child. So yes, when they"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1356.6999999999998,"endTime":1360.12,"body":"have choices, as long as the"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1356.6999999999998,"endTime":1360.12,"body":"range of choices is all"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1360.12,"endTime":1365.85,"body":"appropriate. Great, but that's a"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1360.12,"endTime":1365.85,"body":"tricky question. So choice is"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1365.85,"endTime":1368.73,"body":"important, because you have to"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1365.85,"endTime":1368.73,"body":"have some sense of what you're"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1368.82,"endTime":1372.57,"body":"doing, you know, if the kids are"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1368.82,"endTime":1372.57,"body":"told by a trusted teacher,"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1372.6,"endTime":1375.24,"body":"here's what you're going to do,"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1372.6,"endTime":1375.24,"body":"they'll do it, even if they"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1375.24,"endTime":1375.9299999999998,"body":"didn't have a choice."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1375.9299999999998,"endTime":1376.1699999999998,"body":"Yeah"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1376.26,"endTime":1380.49,"body":"a teacher they did not"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1376.26,"endTime":1380.49,"body":"trust, even a choice given by an"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1380.49,"endTime":1385.77,"body":"untrusted teacher may not be as"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1380.49,"endTime":1385.77,"body":"good as it could be, you really"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1385.77,"endTime":1387.75,"body":"need to have that trust in"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1385.77,"endTime":1387.75,"body":"place, which gets to the"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1387.75,"endTime":1391.3799999999999,"body":"relatedness need. It is"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1387.75,"endTime":1391.3799999999999,"body":"fundamental, and it's about"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1391.4099999999999,"endTime":1395.07,"body":"being recognised for who you"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1391.4099999999999,"endTime":1395.07,"body":"are. And in the situation,"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1395.07,"endTime":1398.8799999999999,"body":"you're in being accepted by that"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1395.07,"endTime":1398.8799999999999,"body":"group for who you are. This is"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1398.8799999999999,"endTime":1403.98,"body":"where trust comes from, I see"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1398.8799999999999,"endTime":1403.98,"body":"you, I recognise you, and I in"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1403.98,"endTime":1407.58,"body":"some way, honour who you are."},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1403.98,"endTime":1407.58,"body":"And choice giving may be a great"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1407.58,"endTime":1409.9199999999998,"body":"way to really help that along."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1410.11,"endTime":1412.6299999999999,"body":"So is that sort"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1410.11,"endTime":1412.6299999999999,"body":"of the idea of emotional safety,"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1412.6599999999999,"endTime":1415.24,"body":"feeling safe in the classroom,"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1412.6599999999999,"endTime":1415.24,"body":"to make mistakes and suggest"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1415.24,"endTime":1417.9399999999998,"body":"things which may or may not be"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1415.24,"endTime":1417.9399999999998,"body":"right, knowing that other people"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1417.9399999999998,"endTime":1421.27,"body":"can disagree with you, but not"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1417.9399999999998,"endTime":1421.27,"body":"in the sense that you're a bad"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1421.27,"endTime":1423.9099999999999,"body":"person, I just have different"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1421.27,"endTime":1423.9099999999999,"body":"ideas to you that kind of"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1423.9099999999999,"endTime":1424.4199999999998,"body":"culture."},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1424.48,"endTime":1427.09,"body":"Exactly, exactly."},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1424.48,"endTime":1427.09,"body":"psychological safety is the"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1427.12,"endTime":1430.8999999999999,"body":"broader term. And yeah, and it's"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1427.12,"endTime":1430.8999999999999,"body":"going to come from not just the"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1430.8999999999999,"endTime":1434.62,"body":"relatedness, but the supports of"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1430.8999999999999,"endTime":1434.62,"body":"autonomy, competence, and"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1434.62,"endTime":1438.1,"body":"relatedness all together. That's"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1434.62,"endTime":1438.1,"body":"what generates the psychological"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1438.1,"endTime":1441.76,"body":"safety that we look for in high"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1438.1,"endTime":1441.76,"body":"performing teams inside and"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1441.76,"endTime":1444.61,"body":"outside of schools. So that's"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1441.76,"endTime":1444.61,"body":"where this particular framework"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1444.61,"endTime":1447.8799999999999,"body":"is really valuable, because it"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1444.61,"endTime":1447.8799999999999,"body":"really articulate very specific"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1447.8799999999999,"endTime":1450.79,"body":"things that are going to"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1447.8799999999999,"endTime":1450.79,"body":"generate that safety, regardless"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1450.79,"endTime":1453.28,"body":"of what type of team you're on,"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1450.79,"endTime":1453.28,"body":"then you have the competence"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1453.28,"endTime":1456.25,"body":"need, which is the sense that"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1453.28,"endTime":1456.25,"body":"you're effective at achieving"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1456.25,"endTime":1460.12,"body":"your own goals within whatever"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1456.25,"endTime":1460.12,"body":"situation it is. So your self"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1460.12,"endTime":1463.8999999999999,"body":"efficacy, your locus of control"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1460.12,"endTime":1463.8999999999999,"body":"is internal, that variety of"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1463.8999999999999,"endTime":1468.3999999999999,"body":"things. It's the perception that"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1463.8999999999999,"endTime":1468.3999999999999,"body":"I'm as competent as I can be"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1468.3999999999999,"endTime":1471.3999999999999,"body":"right now. And I may be building"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1468.3999999999999,"endTime":1471.3999999999999,"body":"on my competence as I go."},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1471.6999999999998,"endTime":1474.1599999999999,"body":"Particularly if it's objectively"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1471.6999999999998,"endTime":1474.1599999999999,"body":"true that you're not very"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1474.1599999999999,"endTime":1477.4599999999998,"body":"competent, but you still have to"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1474.1599999999999,"endTime":1477.4599999999998,"body":"have a perception, you're at the"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1477.4599999999998,"endTime":1480.4299999999998,"body":"level you're at, and you're"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1477.4599999999998,"endTime":1480.4299999999998,"body":"building on that. And so that's"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1480.4299999999998,"endTime":1483.61,"body":"where you can be overwhelmed by,"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1480.4299999999998,"endTime":1483.61,"body":"you know, the five year old"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1483.61,"endTime":1486.52,"body":"being given solid rocket motors,"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1483.61,"endTime":1486.52,"body":"it's like, I don't know what to"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1486.52,"endTime":1488.5,"body":"do with this, well, that's not"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1486.52,"endTime":1488.5,"body":"going to be a helpful situation,"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1488.5,"endTime":1491.29,"body":"because they don't feel"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1488.5,"endTime":1491.29,"body":"competent to use those materials"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1491.29,"endTime":1493.33,"body":"that they've been given. Whereas"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1491.29,"endTime":1493.33,"body":"the stomp rocket, that'll work,"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1493.33,"endTime":1493.6,"body":"right,"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1493.6499999999999,"endTime":1496.74,"body":"So we sometimes"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1493.6499999999999,"endTime":1496.74,"body":"work with teachers, and the kids"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1496.74,"endTime":1500.1,"body":"are engaging in task avoidance,"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1496.74,"endTime":1500.1,"body":"and you can see their self"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1500.1,"endTime":1503.49,"body":"esteem issues. And you can see,"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1500.1,"endTime":1503.49,"body":"they don't want to get something"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1503.49,"endTime":1505.5,"body":"wrong. So they're kind of"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1503.49,"endTime":1505.5,"body":"rejecting the task before it"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1505.5,"endTime":1508.56,"body":"rejects them, in a sense, would"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1505.5,"endTime":1508.56,"body":"competency in this terms, when"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1508.56,"endTime":1511.08,"body":"you talk about perceived"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1508.56,"endTime":1511.08,"body":"competency, what we often say to"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1511.08,"endTime":1513.6599999999999,"body":"the teachers is you need to"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1511.08,"endTime":1513.6599999999999,"body":"start by differentiating the"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1513.6599999999999,"endTime":1516.33,"body":"work or what the child believes"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1513.6599999999999,"endTime":1516.33,"body":"they can do, you may have done"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1516.33,"endTime":1519.1799999999998,"body":"amazing assessments. And you may"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1516.33,"endTime":1519.1799999999998,"body":"know their exact level of"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1519.1799999999998,"endTime":1521.4299999999998,"body":"academic performance, and you"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1519.1799999999998,"endTime":1521.4299999999998,"body":"just want to move them along a"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1521.4299999999998,"endTime":1525.27,"body":"little bit. But if they don't"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1521.4299999999998,"endTime":1525.27,"body":"believe they can do that task or"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1525.4199999999998,"endTime":1528.09,"body":"have a crack at that task, then"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1525.4199999999998,"endTime":1528.09,"body":"what you're going to see is task"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1528.09,"endTime":1530.34,"body":"avoidance is that the kind of"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1528.09,"endTime":1530.34,"body":"where we're talking about in"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1530.34,"endTime":1531.4199999999998,"body":"terms of perceived competence?"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1531.6599999999999,"endTime":1535.08,"body":"Yeah, so particularly"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1531.6599999999999,"endTime":1535.08,"body":"around task avoidance, is what"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1535.08,"endTime":1538.77,"body":"you're seeing is more than just"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1535.08,"endTime":1538.77,"body":"a problem of competence. If"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1538.77,"endTime":1541.8,"body":"they're avoiding the task, what"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1538.77,"endTime":1541.8,"body":"you're probably seeing is the"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1541.8,"endTime":1545.52,"body":"other needs being thwarted as"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1541.8,"endTime":1545.52,"body":"well, is they're not feeling"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1545.52,"endTime":1548.4599999999998,"body":"like they're safe in this"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1545.52,"endTime":1548.4599999999998,"body":"environment, either through"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1548.6999999999998,"endTime":1551.58,"body":"relational challenges, or"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1548.6999999999998,"endTime":1551.58,"body":"simply, this isn't really my"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1551.58,"endTime":1555.33,"body":"thing. I don't identify with"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1551.58,"endTime":1555.33,"body":"this activity, it is really the"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1555.36,"endTime":1559.11,"body":"inter locking of all three needs"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1555.36,"endTime":1559.11,"body":"that really generates that"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1559.11,"endTime":1562.29,"body":"negative in that environment. Do"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1559.11,"endTime":1562.29,"body":"you have to look at more than"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1562.29,"endTime":1565.8,"body":"just competence. Now, it may be"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1562.29,"endTime":1565.8,"body":"that you can use competence as"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1565.8,"endTime":1569.34,"body":"the leverage to build trust and"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1565.8,"endTime":1569.34,"body":"build, you know, the autonomy"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1569.34,"endTime":1572.6699999999998,"body":"that they need to become more"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1569.34,"endTime":1572.6699999999998,"body":"comfortable. So that's helpful,"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1572.6699999999998,"endTime":1576.6299999999999,"body":"but making sure you have all"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1572.6699999999998,"endTime":1576.6299999999999,"body":"three lenses on this challenge"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1576.6599999999999,"endTime":1579.3899999999999,"body":"is really important because if"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1576.6599999999999,"endTime":1579.3899999999999,"body":"you only see it as a competence"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1579.3899999999999,"endTime":1582.09,"body":"challenge, you're probably going"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1579.3899999999999,"endTime":1582.09,"body":"to miss some of the important"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1582.09,"endTime":1584.25,"body":"parts that are really important"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1582.09,"endTime":1584.25,"body":"to that child."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1584.31,"endTime":1586.35,"body":"Okay, so we get"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1584.31,"endTime":1586.35,"body":"these three elements working"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1586.35,"endTime":1589.23,"body":"together in a positive See if"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1586.35,"endTime":1589.23,"body":"way in a constructive way that"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1589.23,"endTime":1591.54,"body":"increases engagement. What are"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1589.23,"endTime":1591.54,"body":"the benefits when we get this"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1591.54,"endTime":1594.0,"body":"right for the students and the"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1591.54,"endTime":1594.0,"body":"teachers?"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1593.35,"endTime":1599.02,"body":"To use a classically"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1593.35,"endTime":1599.02,"body":"overused term, synergistic. So"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1599.05,"endTime":1603.4299999999998,"body":"that's where it really does"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1599.05,"endTime":1603.4299999999998,"body":"start to be that positive spiral"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1603.4599999999998,"endTime":1607.24,"body":"of, okay, if we've got the"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1603.4599999999998,"endTime":1607.24,"body":"trust, and we figured out what"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1607.24,"endTime":1610.1799999999998,"body":"their edges of competence are,"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1607.24,"endTime":1610.1799999999998,"body":"and they're feeling autonomous"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1610.1799999999998,"endTime":1613.51,"body":"about it, then they start to"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1610.1799999999998,"endTime":1613.51,"body":"accelerate up a spiral. And"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1613.51,"endTime":1616.6299999999999,"body":"that's going to go both ways,"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1613.51,"endTime":1616.6299999999999,"body":"then that's where it's really"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1616.6899999999998,"endTime":1619.87,"body":"interesting to look at large"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1616.6899999999998,"endTime":1619.87,"body":"whole classrooms that work"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1619.87,"endTime":1623.53,"body":"really effectively. Like Rafe"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1619.87,"endTime":1623.53,"body":"Esquith, as an example is he was"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1623.53,"endTime":1627.4599999999998,"body":"having third and fourth grade,"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1623.53,"endTime":1627.4599999999998,"body":"Inner City, Los Angeles kids,"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1627.61,"endTime":1631.7199999999998,"body":"studying Shakespeare, putting on"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1627.61,"endTime":1631.7199999999998,"body":"Shakespeare's plays, reading"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1631.7199999999998,"endTime":1636.31,"body":"complex literature, performing"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1631.7199999999998,"endTime":1636.31,"body":"music. When you look at that,"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1636.31,"endTime":1638.62,"body":"and you think, oh, you know,"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1636.31,"endTime":1638.62,"body":"this is great. This is you know,"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1638.62,"endTime":1641.9499999999998,"body":"a fabulous teacher, and then"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1638.62,"endTime":1641.9499999999998,"body":"every other teacher is going."},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1642.73,"endTime":1647.8899999999999,"body":"Grrr! And it's true of not only"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1642.73,"endTime":1647.8899999999999,"body":"Rafe Esquith who did get pushed"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1647.8899999999999,"endTime":1652.7199999999998,"body":"out eventually, but 1984 the"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1647.8899999999999,"endTime":1652.7199999999998,"body":"movie about Jaime Escalante, I"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1652.78,"endTime":1656.53,"body":"wish I could remember the name."},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1652.78,"endTime":1656.53,"body":"But you know, he was a real life"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1656.53,"endTime":1661.6599999999999,"body":"person in Los Angeles, he taught"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1656.53,"endTime":1661.6599999999999,"body":"inner city, mostly Hispanic kids"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1661.6899999999998,"endTime":1665.62,"body":"to learn algebra and complex all"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1661.6899999999998,"endTime":1665.62,"body":"the way through calculus and"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1665.62,"endTime":1672.37,"body":"start taking AP exams, to the"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1665.62,"endTime":1672.37,"body":"point where the AP folks accused"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1672.37,"endTime":1675.82,"body":"them of cheating. And then they"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1672.37,"endTime":1675.82,"body":"re-did the test and proved that"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1675.82,"endTime":1679.3,"body":"in fact, they hadn't cheated."},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1675.82,"endTime":1679.3,"body":"Right after the movie came out."},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1679.33,"endTime":1682.84,"body":"Jaime Escalante was pushed out"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1679.33,"endTime":1682.84,"body":"of the district, eventually, the"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1682.84,"endTime":1686.1999999999998,"body":"programme that he put together"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1682.84,"endTime":1686.1999999999998,"body":"fell apart. And so they're back"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1686.1999999999998,"endTime":1689.1399999999999,"body":"to their baseline. So it's"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1686.1999999999998,"endTime":1689.1399999999999,"body":"really interesting, when you see"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1689.1399999999999,"endTime":1692.6499999999999,"body":"these really high performing,"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1689.1399999999999,"endTime":1692.6499999999999,"body":"teachers almost always get"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1692.6499999999999,"endTime":1696.1899999999998,"body":"pushed out if they get that kind"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1692.6499999999999,"endTime":1696.1899999999998,"body":"of spotlight on them. Anyway,"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1696.31,"endTime":1698.74,"body":"once the movie comes out about"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1696.31,"endTime":1698.74,"body":"your teaching, forget it, you"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1698.74,"endTime":1699.3999999999999,"body":"just leave."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1700.6,"endTime":1703.03,"body":"It's over. Yeah,"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1700.6,"endTime":1703.03,"body":"on the positive side, I think"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1703.06,"endTime":1706.33,"body":"what you're saying there"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1703.06,"endTime":1706.33,"body":"actually is when we as the"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1706.36,"endTime":1710.8,"body":"adults, get the right elements"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1706.36,"endTime":1710.8,"body":"in place, even kids that other"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1710.8,"endTime":1715.48,"body":"people have given up on can"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1710.8,"endTime":1715.48,"body":"perform and exceed expectations."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1715.9599999999998,"endTime":1718.1499999999999,"body":"And that can be really powerful"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1715.9599999999998,"endTime":1718.1499999999999,"body":"for the teacher, because"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1718.1499999999999,"endTime":1720.9699999999998,"body":"sometimes you feel like it's all"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1718.1499999999999,"endTime":1720.9699999999998,"body":"out of your control, and there's"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1720.9699999999998,"endTime":1723.6399999999999,"body":"nothing you can do. And then you"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1720.9699999999998,"endTime":1723.6399999999999,"body":"start to blame the kids. And you"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1723.6399999999999,"endTime":1726.1899999999998,"body":"think, you know, there's nothing"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1723.6399999999999,"endTime":1726.1899999999998,"body":"I can do. And that's really"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1726.1899999999998,"endTime":1728.6499999999999,"body":"stressful for the teacher. But"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1726.1899999999998,"endTime":1728.6499999999999,"body":"actually, what the research"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1728.6499999999999,"endTime":1732.55,"body":"shows is get these elements"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1728.6499999999999,"endTime":1732.55,"body":"lined up in the right way. And"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1732.55,"endTime":1735.2199999999998,"body":"there are things the adults can"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1732.55,"endTime":1735.2199999999998,"body":"do to increase engagement in"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1735.2199999999998,"endTime":1735.55,"body":"school."},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1735.9099999999999,"endTime":1738.1,"body":"Absolutely. And then"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1735.9099999999999,"endTime":1738.1,"body":"that's why I want to create the"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1738.1,"endTime":1741.28,"body":"instant climate instrument is"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1738.1,"endTime":1741.28,"body":"because it's going to be a data"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1741.28,"endTime":1745.0,"body":"source that's completely under"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1741.28,"endTime":1745.0,"body":"the teachers control, that it's"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1745.0,"endTime":1747.85,"body":"not even going to be valid to"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1745.0,"endTime":1747.85,"body":"take it outside of that in some"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1747.85,"endTime":1751.8999999999999,"body":"ways. But it's something where"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1747.85,"endTime":1751.8999999999999,"body":"you can say, Okay, here's a set"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1751.8999999999999,"endTime":1754.03,"body":"of data that says, here's where"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1751.8999999999999,"endTime":1754.03,"body":"I'm at, and here's where I need"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1754.03,"endTime":1757.4499999999998,"body":"to go. The great thing about it"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1754.03,"endTime":1757.4499999999998,"body":"is it's based on a self"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1757.4499999999998,"endTime":1760.36,"body":"determination theory, which has"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1757.4499999999998,"endTime":1760.36,"body":"very specific advice about how"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1760.36,"endTime":1763.87,"body":"to support autonomy. It shows"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1760.36,"endTime":1763.87,"body":"you some typical classroom"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1763.87,"endTime":1767.62,"body":"practices that deteriorate"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1763.87,"endTime":1767.62,"body":"motivation and engagement, you"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1767.62,"endTime":1771.1599999999999,"body":"know, punishment, like a fair"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1767.62,"endTime":1771.1599999999999,"body":"punishment versus unfair"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1771.1599999999999,"endTime":1776.08,"body":"punishments. Both are negative"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1771.1599999999999,"endTime":1776.08,"body":"in terms of the impact they're"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1776.08,"endTime":1779.4099999999999,"body":"going to have. But fair"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1776.08,"endTime":1779.4099999999999,"body":"punishments are a lot less"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1779.4099999999999,"endTime":1783.31,"body":"negative than unfair"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1779.4099999999999,"endTime":1783.31,"body":"punishments. So realistically,"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1783.31,"endTime":1786.6699999999998,"body":"sometimes punishment is going to"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1783.31,"endTime":1786.6699999999998,"body":"be necessary as just as a"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1786.6699999999998,"endTime":1791.29,"body":"management tool, but make darn"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1786.6699999999998,"endTime":1791.29,"body":"sure you're doing it fairly,"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1791.3799999999999,"endTime":1793.87,"body":"because then you can least"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1791.3799999999999,"endTime":1793.87,"body":"minimise the damage that was"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1793.87,"endTime":1795.6999999999998,"body":"follows from having to use it."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1795.79,"endTime":1798.07,"body":"I mean, we find"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1795.79,"endTime":1798.07,"body":"in our work, it's the coaching"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1798.07,"endTime":1802.09,"body":"conversations you have around"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1798.07,"endTime":1802.09,"body":"what happens that changes"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1802.09,"endTime":1804.73,"body":"behaviour, rather than the"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1802.09,"endTime":1804.73,"body":"consequences itself missing a"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1804.73,"endTime":1807.8799999999999,"body":"lunchtime or something, it's not"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1804.73,"endTime":1807.8799999999999,"body":"logically related to the thing"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1807.8799999999999,"endTime":1810.4599999999998,"body":"the child has done, it hasn't"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1807.8799999999999,"endTime":1810.4599999999998,"body":"moved on their understanding"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1810.4599999999998,"endTime":1812.8,"body":"their social skills or whatever"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1810.4599999999998,"endTime":1812.8,"body":"it happened to be in any"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1812.8,"endTime":1813.3999999999999,"body":"meaningful way."},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1813.35,"endTime":1815.36,"body":"Exactly. Yeah. I mean,"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1813.35,"endTime":1815.36,"body":"when you look at behaviour"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1815.36,"endTime":1820.3999999999999,"body":"challenges, oftentimes, there's"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1815.36,"endTime":1820.3999999999999,"body":"a social skill component at"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1820.3999999999999,"endTime":1824.4499999999998,"body":"work, not in every instance. But"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1820.3999999999999,"endTime":1824.4499999999998,"body":"a lot of times, it's just Oh,"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1824.51,"endTime":1828.83,"body":"either the social skill slipped"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1824.51,"endTime":1828.83,"body":"like they had it, you know,"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1828.83,"endTime":1831.98,"body":"they've demonstrated before, but"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1828.83,"endTime":1831.98,"body":"something was going on, and it"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1831.98,"endTime":1834.1999999999998,"body":"slipped down to this other"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1831.98,"endTime":1834.1999999999998,"body":"level, and you just have to have"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1834.1999999999998,"endTime":1838.2199999999998,"body":"that conversation. What can we"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1834.1999999999998,"endTime":1838.2199999999998,"body":"do to better keep that in place?"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1838.55,"endTime":1842.6899999999998,"body":"Or it's just that lack. And you"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1838.55,"endTime":1842.6899999999998,"body":"need that conversation to like,"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1842.7199999999998,"endTime":1846.77,"body":"oh, okay, let's, how do we build"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1842.7199999999998,"endTime":1846.77,"body":"on what you do know, to get to"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1846.77,"endTime":1849.62,"body":"that place where we can prevent"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1846.77,"endTime":1849.62,"body":"this from happening again. So"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1849.62,"endTime":1854.75,"body":"really does rely on those"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1849.62,"endTime":1854.75,"body":"conversations, interaction, and"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1854.75,"endTime":1856.07,"body":"relationship. So yeah,"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1856.4499999999998,"endTime":1857.9499999999998,"body":"Don, if you're a"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1856.4499999999998,"endTime":1857.9499999999998,"body":"teacher, a school leader,"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1857.9499999999998,"endTime":1860.8,"body":"listening to this podcast,"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1857.9499999999998,"endTime":1860.8,"body":"what's the first step you can"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1860.8,"endTime":1864.9399999999998,"body":"take today to start improving"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1860.8,"endTime":1864.9399999999998,"body":"student engagement in your"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1864.9399999999998,"endTime":1866.11,"body":"classroom or your school?"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1866.1299999999999,"endTime":1869.1,"body":"So I would say start"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1866.1299999999999,"endTime":1869.1,"body":"with relationship that's the one"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1869.1,"endTime":1874.11,"body":"that is the most amenable to"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1869.1,"endTime":1874.11,"body":"sort of immediate actionable"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1874.23,"endTime":1877.1399999999999,"body":"things. Plus, you have a sense"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1874.23,"endTime":1877.1399999999999,"body":"of who's who in your room in"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1877.1399999999999,"endTime":1881.01,"body":"your school, they will recognise"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1877.1399999999999,"endTime":1881.01,"body":"all the leaders and say, Okay,"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1881.04,"endTime":1883.77,"body":"what can I build on as a"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1881.04,"endTime":1883.77,"body":"strength and if you see, okay, I"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1883.77,"endTime":1886.29,"body":"have a weak relationship with"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1883.77,"endTime":1886.29,"body":"this person, this student or"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1886.29,"endTime":1891.09,"body":"teacher Okay. Where can I create"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1886.29,"endTime":1891.09,"body":"an entry point? Where can I just"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1891.09,"endTime":1893.85,"body":"have an interaction that's going"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1891.09,"endTime":1893.85,"body":"to be positive? Anybody can be"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1893.85,"endTime":1897.6899999999998,"body":"small. If you're in a negative"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1893.85,"endTime":1897.6899999999998,"body":"relationship space, you need to"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1897.6899999999998,"endTime":1902.1899999999998,"body":"start small and start to probe"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1897.6899999999998,"endTime":1902.1899999999998,"body":"with gentle ways to find out,"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1902.1899999999998,"endTime":1905.9699999999998,"body":"okay? Are they open to my"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1902.1899999999998,"endTime":1905.9699999999998,"body":"improving our relationship? It"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1905.9699999999998,"endTime":1908.28,"body":"doesn't have to go both ways, or"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1905.9699999999998,"endTime":1908.28,"body":"it's not going to doing good. So"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1908.28,"endTime":1912.06,"body":"then you can really say, okay,"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1908.28,"endTime":1912.06,"body":"what can I do? What small thing"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1912.06,"endTime":1916.62,"body":"can I take? And then on a bigger"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1912.06,"endTime":1916.62,"body":"space, you say, Okay, how can I"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1916.6499999999999,"endTime":1920.04,"body":"be more real about the"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1916.6499999999999,"endTime":1920.04,"body":"relationships we actually have"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1920.07,"endTime":1923.9699999999998,"body":"with each other and recognise,"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1920.07,"endTime":1923.9699999999998,"body":"here's where it's not ideal. And"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1923.9699999999998,"endTime":1927.48,"body":"here's where we need work. Make"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1923.9699999999998,"endTime":1927.48,"body":"that effort and see how it goes."},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1927.7199999999998,"endTime":1930.06,"body":"But be really, I think"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1927.7199999999998,"endTime":1930.06,"body":"relationship is always the first"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1930.06,"endTime":1930.78,"body":"place to start."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1930.87,"endTime":1932.58,"body":"And how can we"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1930.87,"endTime":1932.58,"body":"find out more about your new"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1932.58,"endTime":1935.85,"body":"book Schooling for Holistic"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1932.58,"endTime":1935.85,"body":"Equity and your other resources?"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1935.85,"endTime":1937.83,"body":"Because I know you've got lots"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1935.85,"endTime":1937.83,"body":"of resources on your website."},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1937.35,"endTime":1940.83,"body":"So the website is"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1937.35,"endTime":1940.83,"body":"conveniently enough holistic"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1940.86,"endTime":1945.0,"body":"equity.org. And yeah, you can"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1940.86,"endTime":1945.0,"body":"find out I have videos on most"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1945.0,"endTime":1947.9399999999998,"body":"of the pages there. I've written"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1945.0,"endTime":1947.9399999999998,"body":"several books, of which the"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1947.9699999999998,"endTime":1951.06,"body":"newest book is kind of a"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1947.9699999999998,"endTime":1951.06,"body":"compilation of several, so puts"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1951.06,"endTime":1954.27,"body":"them together, puts it in a"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1951.06,"endTime":1954.27,"body":"coherent, whole way of thinking"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1954.27,"endTime":1957.78,"body":"about what holistic equity"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1954.27,"endTime":1957.78,"body":"actually is. So yeah, holistic"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1957.81,"endTime":1961.59,"body":"equity.org. It's not actually"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1957.81,"endTime":1961.59,"body":"out yet The Instant Climate but"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1961.59,"endTime":1965.1299999999999,"body":"that'll be going up on there."},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1961.59,"endTime":1965.1299999999999,"body":"And on my I have a site called"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1965.1599999999999,"endTime":1969.81,"body":"attitutor.com, which is the"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1965.1599999999999,"endTime":1969.81,"body":"portmanteau of attitude and"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1969.84,"endTime":1975.57,"body":"tutor so ATTITUTOR. But that"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1969.84,"endTime":1975.57,"body":"will be the main place where"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1975.57,"endTime":1979.1999999999998,"body":"I'll put that instant climate"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1975.57,"endTime":1979.1999999999998,"body":"tool, and that'll be the tool"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1979.1999999999998,"endTime":1982.08,"body":"that people can start to play"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1979.1999999999998,"endTime":1982.08,"body":"with, probably within the next"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":1982.08,"endTime":1982.53,"body":"few weeks."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1982.56,"endTime":1984.1499999999999,"body":"That sounds"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1982.56,"endTime":1984.1499999999999,"body":"amazing That sounds really"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1984.1499999999999,"endTime":1986.82,"body":"interesting. I think it's gonna"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1984.1499999999999,"endTime":1986.82,"body":"be really powerful in terms of"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1986.85,"endTime":1990.3,"body":"feedback about how you make"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1986.85,"endTime":1990.3,"body":"positive climate in the"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1990.3,"endTime":1993.87,"body":"classroom. Finally, we asked"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1990.3,"endTime":1993.87,"body":"this of our guests, who's the"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1993.87,"endTime":1997.29,"body":"key figure that's influenced"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1993.87,"endTime":1997.29,"body":"you, or what's the key book that"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1997.29,"endTime":2000.4699999999998,"body":"you've read, that's had the"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1997.29,"endTime":2000.4699999999998,"body":"biggest impact on your approach"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":2000.4699999999998,"endTime":2001.34,"body":"to working with kids?"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":2001.37,"endTime":2003.62,"body":"So I think"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":2001.37,"endTime":2003.62,"body":"interesting, it's not a famous"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":2003.62,"endTime":2006.74,"body":"person at all. But it's, it was"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":2003.62,"endTime":2006.74,"body":"a mentor of mine, her name is"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":2006.74,"endTime":2013.1299999999999,"body":"Mary Gardener. And she was a bus"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":2006.74,"endTime":2013.1299999999999,"body":"driver for many years and raised"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":2013.1299999999999,"endTime":2016.07,"body":"six or seven, have her own"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":2013.1299999999999,"endTime":2016.07,"body":"children. And then when she"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":2016.07,"endTime":2020.75,"body":"retired from driving bus, she"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":2016.07,"endTime":2020.75,"body":"wasn't done raising kids. So she"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":2020.75,"endTime":2023.8999999999999,"body":"started what she called her baby"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":2020.75,"endTime":2023.8999999999999,"body":"school. And then when those kids"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":2023.8999999999999,"endTime":2027.7099999999998,"body":"got old enough, the parents"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":2023.8999999999999,"endTime":2027.7099999999998,"body":"demanded that she started in the"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":2027.74,"endTime":2031.9399999999998,"body":"preschool. And then I actually"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":2027.74,"endTime":2031.9399999999998,"body":"met her when she started a"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":2032.0,"endTime":2035.6899999999998,"body":"school age programme during the"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":2032.0,"endTime":2035.6899999999998,"body":"summer between the years and the"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":2035.6899999999998,"endTime":2038.99,"body":"whole premise, it was called"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":2035.6899999999998,"endTime":2038.99,"body":"kids about town. And the whole"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":2038.99,"endTime":2043.58,"body":"idea was get kids out every day"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":2038.99,"endTime":2043.58,"body":"on public transit, exploring"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":2043.61,"endTime":2046.34,"body":"everything available in the"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":2043.61,"endTime":2046.34,"body":"city. So we did libraries,"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":2046.34,"endTime":2049.01,"body":"museums, performances,"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":2046.34,"endTime":2049.01,"body":"everything you can do in"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":2049.04,"endTime":2052.1,"body":"Portland, Oregon, that we could"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":2049.04,"endTime":2052.1,"body":"think of. And that would be, you"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":2052.1,"endTime":2056.27,"body":"know, appropriate for kids. So"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":2052.1,"endTime":2056.27,"body":"we did that. So that ended up"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":2056.3,"endTime":2059.6,"body":"leading to me, homeschooling"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":2056.3,"endTime":2059.6,"body":"other people's kids for about"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":2059.6,"endTime":2063.38,"body":"five years, just basically doing"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":2059.6,"endTime":2063.38,"body":"kids about town. But all year"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":2063.38,"endTime":2066.23,"body":"round. You mentioned in my intro"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":2063.38,"endTime":2066.23,"body":"that I you know, have many years"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":2066.23,"endTime":2069.41,"body":"of experience leading children."},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":2066.23,"endTime":2069.41,"body":"And that's one of the eras of"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":2069.41,"endTime":2073.07,"body":"that was homeschooling other"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":2069.41,"endTime":2073.07,"body":"people's kids, and really using"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":2073.07,"endTime":2076.37,"body":"the community as the primary"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":2073.07,"endTime":2076.37,"body":"learning resource, and then"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":2076.37,"endTime":2080.39,"body":"having them make decisions about"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":2076.37,"endTime":2080.39,"body":"what should we do, how should we"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":2080.39,"endTime":2083.3,"body":"do it? And so that's kind of an"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":2080.39,"endTime":2083.3,"body":"unusual element in my"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":2083.3,"endTime":2087.02,"body":"background. And then I I ended"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":2083.3,"endTime":2087.02,"body":"up studying Summerhill, which is"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":2087.02,"endTime":2091.25,"body":"in England as Neil summer Hill"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":2087.02,"endTime":2091.25,"body":"not, there's another one. But as"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":2091.25,"endTime":2093.08,"body":"Neil Summer Hill was an"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":2091.25,"endTime":2093.08,"body":"interesting one, because it's"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":2093.08,"endTime":2096.5,"body":"democratic school, which is all"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":2093.08,"endTime":2096.5,"body":"about having the kids choose how"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":2096.5,"endTime":2098.66,"body":"they're going to live their"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":2096.5,"endTime":2098.66,"body":"life. It's a boarding school,"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":2098.66,"endTime":2102.65,"body":"and I think kids are there from"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":2098.66,"endTime":2102.65,"body":"might be six or seven years old."},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":2103.07,"endTime":2107.9,"body":"But they go until they're 16,"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":2103.07,"endTime":2107.9,"body":"17, I think, and, you know, they"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":2107.9,"endTime":2110.63,"body":"can choose not to go to classes,"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":2107.9,"endTime":2110.63,"body":"which is interesting, and"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":2110.63,"endTime":2114.68,"body":"something that almost got them"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":2110.63,"endTime":2114.68,"body":"shut down in 1999. But they won"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":2114.68,"endTime":2116.9,"body":"the court case on that against"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":2114.68,"endTime":2116.9,"body":"Ofsted. You know, that's been my"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":2116.9,"endTime":2121.88,"body":"journey since that doing my own"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":2116.9,"endTime":2121.88,"body":"thing was to study and find out"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":2121.88,"endTime":2123.77,"body":"what are these radically"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":2121.88,"endTime":2123.77,"body":"different kinds of schools"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":2123.77,"endTime":2127.97,"body":"doing? And how can we actually"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":2123.77,"endTime":2127.97,"body":"bridge the gap? If you're just"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":2127.97,"endTime":2131.18,"body":"from the main stream, if you"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":2127.97,"endTime":2131.18,"body":"all, you know, is teacher in"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":2131.18,"endTime":2133.91,"body":"front of students who are forced"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":2131.18,"endTime":2133.91,"body":"to be there than when they have"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":2133.91,"endTime":2136.43,"body":"a choice? It seems like well,"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":2133.91,"endTime":2136.43,"body":"they'll just don't, you know,"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":2136.46,"endTime":2139.1,"body":"dropped out, you know, they will"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":2136.46,"endTime":2139.1,"body":"do opt out for a little bit. But"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":2139.1,"endTime":2142.5499999999997,"body":"then they realise like, yeah, I"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":2139.1,"endTime":2142.5499999999997,"body":"want to learn stuff. So they do."},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":2142.58,"endTime":2146.15,"body":"They pursue all kinds of"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":2142.58,"endTime":2146.15,"body":"interesting skills and"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":2146.15,"endTime":2149.24,"body":"opportunities and projects. And"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":2146.15,"endTime":2149.24,"body":"most kids at Summerhill take"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":2149.24,"endTime":2152.8399999999997,"body":"classes, but the classes they"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":2149.24,"endTime":2152.8399999999997,"body":"chose, and they learn all the"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":2152.8399999999997,"endTime":2156.83,"body":"different kinds of skills that"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":2152.8399999999997,"endTime":2156.83,"body":"we would normally want. Because"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":2156.92,"endTime":2160.79,"body":"they want to get better at some"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":2156.92,"endTime":2160.79,"body":"particular thing. Or they are"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":2160.79,"endTime":2163.3399999999997,"body":"scanning a loss across a lot of"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":2160.79,"endTime":2163.3399999999997,"body":"things. And they've discovered"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":2163.37,"endTime":2166.43,"body":"Oh, reading tends to be a thing"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":2163.37,"endTime":2166.43,"body":"I have to do in order to succeed"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":2166.43,"endTime":2169.67,"body":"in, in life. And to me, the"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":2166.43,"endTime":2169.67,"body":"psychology is the place where"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":2169.7,"endTime":2172.25,"body":"bridges those two worlds"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":2169.7,"endTime":2172.25,"body":"schools, like Summerhill,"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":2172.25,"endTime":2176.5099999999998,"body":"democratic schools, really"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":2172.25,"endTime":2176.5099999999998,"body":"emphasise the autonomy more than"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":2176.87,"endTime":2179.2999999999997,"body":"that mainstream schools do but"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":2176.87,"endTime":2179.2999999999997,"body":"that doesn't mean that there"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":2179.48,"endTime":2182.36,"body":"can't support autonomy within"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":2179.48,"endTime":2182.36,"body":"those mainstream but that's the"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":2182.36,"endTime":2185.63,"body":"thing. That's really the key to"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":2182.36,"endTime":2185.63,"body":"the success is the support for"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":2185.63,"endTime":2188.24,"body":"autonomy. How can I better serve"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":2185.63,"endTime":2188.24,"body":"for their autonomy, how can I"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":2188.24,"endTime":2191.18,"body":"build a relationship with them?"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":2188.24,"endTime":2191.18,"body":"That's going to be better. So"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":2191.18,"endTime":2194.5099999999998,"body":"yeah, Mary Gardner set me off on"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":2191.18,"endTime":2194.5099999999998,"body":"my journey in a lot of ways,"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":2194.5099999999998,"endTime":2197.24,"body":"because she did something that"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":2194.5099999999998,"endTime":2197.24,"body":"was out of the box. She said,"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":2197.24,"endTime":2199.79,"body":"Okay, what would kids really"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":2197.24,"endTime":2199.79,"body":"need, you know, because they're"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":2199.79,"endTime":2203.8399999999997,"body":"active, every single day,"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":2199.79,"endTime":2203.8399999999997,"body":"getting on, they're skilled at"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":2203.8399999999997,"endTime":2206.75,"body":"writing public transportation,"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":2203.8399999999997,"endTime":2206.75,"body":"planning trips, you know, the"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":2206.75,"endTime":2209.42,"body":"whole thing, just they were"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":2206.75,"endTime":2209.42,"body":"better students for it, when"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":2209.42,"endTime":2210.77,"body":"they had to return to the"},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":2209.42,"endTime":2210.77,"body":"classroom."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":2210.71,"endTime":2212.0899999999997,"body":"And you know,"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":2210.71,"endTime":2212.0899999999997,"body":"Don, listening to that,"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":2212.0899999999997,"endTime":2216.0499999999997,"body":"throughout that sort of potted"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":2212.0899999999997,"endTime":2216.0499999999997,"body":"history of your journey, there's"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":2216.0499999999997,"endTime":2218.5699999999997,"body":"a golden thread there. And I"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":2216.0499999999997,"endTime":2218.5699999999997,"body":"think the golden thread is"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":2218.69,"endTime":2221.42,"body":"engagement. Which brings us back"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":2218.69,"endTime":2221.42,"body":"to the start of the podcast in a"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":2221.42,"endTime":2222.65,"body":"full circle very nicely."},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":2222.68,"endTime":2223.37,"body":"Exactly."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":2223.5499999999997,"endTime":2225.71,"body":"I really enjoyed"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":2223.5499999999997,"endTime":2225.71,"body":"that interview, I think there"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":2225.71,"endTime":2229.46,"body":"are so many practical takeaways,"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":2225.71,"endTime":2229.46,"body":"our listeners can start using"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":2229.46,"endTime":2232.3399999999997,"body":"with their kids already in the"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":2229.46,"endTime":2232.3399999999997,"body":"classroom. Thank you for being"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":2232.3399999999997,"endTime":2233.6,"body":"on the podcast today. It's been"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":2232.3399999999997,"endTime":2233.6,"body":"brilliant."},{"speaker":"Don Berg","startTime":2233.6,"endTime":2234.47,"body":"Thankyou, Simon."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":2235.25,"endTime":2237.83,"body":"So what Dan was"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":2235.25,"endTime":2237.83,"body":"saying there makes a lot of"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":2237.83,"endTime":2242.24,"body":"sense when we don't feel like"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":2237.83,"endTime":2242.24,"body":"we've got ownership of a task if"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":2242.24,"endTime":2245.69,"body":"we feel out of our depth. If we"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":2242.24,"endTime":2245.69,"body":"don't feel connected to the"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":2245.69,"endTime":2249.3199999999997,"body":"people around us, we're much"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":2245.69,"endTime":2249.3199999999997,"body":"more likely to give up and"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":2249.3199999999997,"endTime":2250.73,"body":"become disengaged."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":2251.1,"endTime":2254.3399999999997,"body":"Absolutely. And"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":2251.1,"endTime":2254.3399999999997,"body":"I'll drop direct links to Dan's"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":2254.3399999999997,"endTime":2255.7799999999997,"body":"work in the episode description."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":2255.8399999999997,"endTime":2258.27,"body":"And if your"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":2255.8399999999997,"endTime":2258.27,"body":"students are experiencing"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":2258.27,"endTime":2262.02,"body":"disengagement during lesson"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":2258.27,"endTime":2262.02,"body":"time, there might be some simple"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":2262.02,"endTime":2264.7799999999997,"body":"tweaks that you could make to"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":2262.02,"endTime":2264.7799999999997,"body":"the way you've organised your"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":2264.7799999999997,"endTime":2268.47,"body":"environment, or the format of"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":2264.7799999999997,"endTime":2268.47,"body":"your lessons. And that could"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":2268.47,"endTime":2272.19,"body":"have a real impact on improving"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":2268.47,"endTime":2272.19,"body":"behaviour in your class."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":2272.22,"endTime":2275.1,"body":"If that sounds"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":2272.22,"endTime":2275.1,"body":"interesting to you, we've got a"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":2275.1,"endTime":2278.4,"body":"completely free download that"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":2275.1,"endTime":2278.4,"body":"goes with this episode called"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":2278.4,"endTime":2281.13,"body":"the classroom management score"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":2278.4,"endTime":2281.13,"body":"sheet. Inside the score sheets,"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":2281.13,"endTime":2284.88,"body":"you'll find a list of 37 factors"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":2281.13,"endTime":2284.88,"body":"that all have an impact on"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":2284.88,"endTime":2288.24,"body":"classroom behaviour. It's a list"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":2284.88,"endTime":2288.24,"body":"of things that you're doing or"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":2288.24,"endTime":2293.0699999999997,"body":"not doing. Think of it as a"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":2288.24,"endTime":2293.0699999999997,"body":"roadmap to improve your presence"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":2293.1,"endTime":2296.1,"body":"in the classroom and to improve"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":2293.1,"endTime":2296.1,"body":"engagement in the classroom. So"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":2296.1,"endTime":2298.68,"body":"it's based on 1000s of"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":2296.1,"endTime":2298.68,"body":"observations that Emma and I"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":2298.68,"endTime":2302.43,"body":"have conducted between us. So"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":2298.68,"endTime":2302.43,"body":"you know, it's based on sound"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":2302.46,"endTime":2303.8399999999997,"body":"classroom practice."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":2303.92,"endTime":2306.38,"body":"And of course,"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":2303.92,"endTime":2306.38,"body":"if you're supporting a colleague"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":2306.38,"endTime":2309.83,"body":"with their classroom management,"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":2306.38,"endTime":2309.83,"body":"it can really help to make sure"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":2309.83,"endTime":2313.94,"body":"that your feedback to them and"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":2309.83,"endTime":2313.94,"body":"action points are even more"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":2313.94,"endTime":2317.96,"body":"clear and objective. Get your"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":2313.94,"endTime":2317.96,"body":"score sheet now by going to"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":2318.0499999999997,"endTime":2322.79,"body":"beaconschoolsupport.co.uk."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":2318.0499999999997,"endTime":2322.79,"body":"Clicking on the free resources"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":2322.79,"endTime":2326.27,"body":"option in the menu, you'll find"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":2322.79,"endTime":2326.27,"body":"it near the top of the page, the"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":2326.27,"endTime":2330.35,"body":"score sheet is completely free."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":2326.27,"endTime":2330.35,"body":"So go and get yours today. And"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":2330.35,"endTime":2333.89,"body":"we'll put a direct link in the"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":2330.35,"endTime":2333.89,"body":"episode description too."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":2334.16,"endTime":2336.5299999999997,"body":"And finally, if"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":2334.16,"endTime":2336.5299999999997,"body":"you like what you've heard"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":2336.5299999999997,"endTime":2338.18,"body":"today, don't forget to open up"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":2336.5299999999997,"endTime":2338.18,"body":"your podcast app and subscribe"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":2338.18,"endTime":2341.0299999999997,"body":"to make sure you never miss a"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":2338.18,"endTime":2341.0299999999997,"body":"future episode. subscribing to"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":2341.12,"endTime":2348.74,"body":"the show makes you feel as"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":2341.12,"endTime":2348.74,"body":"joyful. As a trout. That's been"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":2348.74,"endTime":2352.37,"body":"tickled by a real trout tickling"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":2348.74,"endTime":2352.37,"body":"Pro, someone who really knows"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":2352.37,"endTime":2355.46,"body":"their stuff, and is at the top"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":2352.37,"endTime":2355.46,"body":"of their trout tickling game,"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":2355.64,"endTime":2359.0,"body":"who uses the right gloves has"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":2355.64,"endTime":2359.0,"body":"spent years developing their"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":2359.0,"endTime":2362.48,"body":"technique and it's the right"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":2359.0,"endTime":2362.48,"body":"trousers and everything. Close"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":2362.48,"endTime":2366.62,"body":"your eyes. And you can feel it"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":2362.48,"endTime":2366.62,"body":"right now. Do it with me, trouts"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":2366.62,"endTime":2367.85,"body":"really have it made."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":2368.9,"endTime":2372.71,"body":"That's really"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":2368.9,"endTime":2372.71,"body":"all we've got for today. We hope"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":2372.77,"endTime":2375.74,"body":"you have a great week and we"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":2372.77,"endTime":2375.74,"body":"look forward to seeing you next"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":2375.74,"endTime":2378.5899999999997,"body":"time on school behaviour"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":2375.74,"endTime":2378.5899999999997,"body":"secrets. Bye for now."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":2378.95,"endTime":2379.4,"body":"Bye"}]}