{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"startTime":87.43799999999999,"endTime":92.396,"body":"Hi there. Simon Currigan here, and welcome to this week's episode of school behaviour secrets."},{"startTime":92.43299999999999,"endTime":97.40799999999999,"body":"This week, I'm releasing a quick fire episode because where we live in the UK, it's currently"},{"startTime":97.40799999999999,"endTime":103.39399999999999,"body":"half term. In these quick fire episodes, I'd like to give you one idea or insight or strategy"},{"startTime":103.416,"endTime":108.42599999999999,"body":"away from the main podcast that can be useful for improving behaviour or supporting children"},{"startTime":108.42599999999999,"endTime":114.386,"body":"with SEMH needs in your school. And if you've been listening to the podcast and finding it useful,"},{"startTime":114.40799999999999,"endTime":119.38799999999999,"body":"please don't forget to subscribe and tell your friends or colleagues about it and throw some"},{"startTime":119.38799999999999,"endTime":126.35,"body":"good karma back out into the world. I'd appreciate it. Welcome to the School Behaviour Secrets"},{"startTime":126.364,"endTime":131.427,"body":"podcast. I'm your host, Simon Currigan. My cohost is Emma Shackleton, and we're obsessed with"},{"startTime":131.427,"endTime":136.401,"body":"helping teachers, school leaders, parents, and, of course, students when classroom behaviour"},{"startTime":136.40699999999998,"endTime":141.389,"body":"gets in the way of success. We're gonna share the tried and tested secrets to classroom management,"},{"startTime":141.403,"endTime":146.391,"body":"behavioural special needs, whole school strategy, and more, all with the aim of helping your"},{"startTime":146.391,"endTime":151.44299999999998,"body":"students reach their true potential. Plus, we'll be letting you eavesdrop on our conversations"},{"startTime":151.449,"endTime":156.442,"body":"with thought leaders from around the world. So you'll get to hear the latest evidence based"},{"startTime":156.442,"endTime":164.37,"body":"strategies before anyone else. This is the School Behaviour Secrets podcast. In this episode,"},{"startTime":164.40800000000002,"endTime":170.39999999999998,"body":"I want to answer a question that we get asked a lot in our work, which is what can we do in"},{"startTime":170.39999999999998,"endTime":176.416,"body":"our school to reduce exclusions and suspensions for children with SEMH needs or what can we"},{"startTime":176.416,"endTime":183.35,"body":"do in our local area to reduce exclusions. And I want to start just to define some terms here"},{"startTime":183.35,"endTime":187.391,"body":"because different countries around the world use different terminology for this. I know that"},{"startTime":187.391,"endTime":194.37099999999998,"body":"we have listeners that extend beyond the UK. So in the UK, for about the last 15 years, we've"},{"startTime":194.37099999999998,"endTime":202.351,"body":"used 2 key terms in respect to exclusion. The first is permanent exclusion. This is a term that"},{"startTime":202.351,"endTime":208.38299999999998,"body":"means a school is saying to a pupil, because of your behaviour in school, we are taking you off"},{"startTime":208.38299999999998,"endTime":214.353,"body":"role. You have no choice about it, and you are no longer allowed to come on to our school site,"},{"startTime":214.353,"endTime":219.405,"body":"and you now need to find another school place. In the past, we used to call this expulsion,"},{"startTime":219.405,"endTime":224.355,"body":"which is what I believe it's still called around the world including in North America. In England"},{"startTime":224.355,"endTime":228.43099999999998,"body":"and Wales, there's a law that says if a child gets permanently excluded or expelled from a school,"},{"startTime":228.43099999999998,"endTime":234.43099999999998,"body":"then the local authority has to find them new provision within 6 days. And this might be, say,"},{"startTime":234.43099999999998,"endTime":241.363,"body":"another school or a place in a pupil referral unit, but something is supposed to happen to ensure"},{"startTime":241.363,"endTime":247.369,"body":"that child isn't just sitting at home. The reality, well, that's often something quite different,"},{"startTime":247.369,"endTime":253.432,"body":"but that's the theory anyway. Until recently in the UK, we used the term fixed term exclusion"},{"startTime":253.446,"endTime":260.36400000000003,"body":"to describe the situation where a child engages in some behaviour, perhaps they were aggressive"},{"startTime":260.37,"endTime":265.392,"body":"or unsafe or persistently disruptive. And the school says to the child, you must now stay at"},{"startTime":265.392,"endTime":272.409,"body":"home as a punishment for a certain number of days, maybe 2, 3, 4, 5 days. We used to call this"},{"startTime":272.409,"endTime":279.399,"body":"a suspension. We've spent 15 years calling it a fixed term exclusion, and now we call it a suspension"},{"startTime":279.437,"endTime":285.423,"body":"again. Why do all these terms keep changing? Well, I'm guessing it's because if you're a minister"},{"startTime":285.423,"endTime":290.387,"body":"or an official at the Department of Education, a quick way to show you're having a real impact"},{"startTime":290.387,"endTime":295.423,"body":"with an issue, to show that you're affecting change is to relabel it, to rebrand it. You know,"},{"startTime":295.423,"endTime":301.385,"body":"problem solved. Right? The minister can say, look. I did something. I had an impact. Brilliant."},{"startTime":301.39099999999996,"endTime":309.379,"body":"So politics aside, exclusion is an important issue, not least because poor outcomes for the"},{"startTime":309.379,"endTime":315.376,"body":"kids themselves in terms of exclusion, the outcomes for the child is a side issue, but the impact"},{"startTime":315.383,"endTime":321.394,"body":"exclusion has on society itself for me, for you, for our neighbours, for our families. There's"},{"startTime":321.394,"endTime":326.416,"body":"something called the school to prison pathway that essentially goes, the child gets permanently"},{"startTime":326.422,"endTime":333.378,"body":"excluded from school, goes to a PRU, goes to a prison. We know from statistics that kids who"},{"startTime":333.378,"endTime":341.366,"body":"get excluded are way, way more likely to become involved in criminality usually in their local"},{"startTime":341.366,"endTime":346.43600000000004,"body":"neighbourhood, and that's expensive in terms of a society where we have to live with the consequences"},{"startTime":347.35799999999995,"endTime":353.424,"body":"of that crime, you know, emotionally and financially, and in terms of the costs of accommodating"},{"startTime":353.446,"endTime":360.42100000000005,"body":"people in prison and youth offending centers and the increased chances of future crime and convictions"},{"startTime":361.38300000000004,"endTime":366.44500000000005,"body":"once someone goes down that path. You know? It's that classic downward spiral. And here's the"},{"startTime":366.44500000000005,"endTime":373.437,"body":"thing, you are way more likely to be suspended or permanently excluded from school if you have"},{"startTime":374.375,"endTime":381.351,"body":"an underlying special educational need, the suspension rate, which is basically the number of"},{"startTime":381.376,"endTime":387.408,"body":"suspensions as a proportion to the number of overall students, the average suspension rate across"},{"startTime":387.408,"endTime":392.433,"body":"the board in England and Wales last year was 1.94. Don't worry about what that number means"},{"startTime":392.433,"endTime":398.399,"body":"too much, but compare it to the next number I'm gonna give you. If you've got a special need"},{"startTime":398.399,"endTime":407.38300000000004,"body":"and an education, health, and care plan, that number jumps from 1.94 to 7 0.78. And if you've"},{"startTime":407.38300000000004,"endTime":415.42100000000005,"body":"got special needs and you don't have the support of an EHCP, it goes up to 8.16. So in short,"},{"startTime":415.42100000000005,"endTime":422.409,"body":"that means if you've got an underlying special need in school, you are 4 times more likely to"},{"startTime":422.409,"endTime":429.39,"body":"be suspended. And in terms of permanent exclusions, putting you on the school pre prison pathway,"},{"startTime":429.41999999999996,"endTime":436.37800000000004,"body":"which isn't easy to say. If you've got an SEN need with an EHCP, you are twice as likely to be"},{"startTime":436.37800000000004,"endTime":443.408,"body":"permanently excluded. An SEN need without an EHCP, you're 3 times as likely to be excluded."},{"startTime":443.414,"endTime":449.44399999999996,"body":"And I'd suggest there that the numbers with kids with EHCPs are marginally lower because schools"},{"startTime":449.44399999999996,"endTime":455.39700000000005,"body":"and authorities are worried about excluding children with EHCPs because of the legal practicalities"},{"startTime":455.428,"endTime":463.37800000000004,"body":"around that. So the question remains, what can we do to reduce the number of exclusions for"},{"startTime":463.37800000000004,"endTime":470.41499999999996,"body":"kids with SEMH needs. Well, in my opinion, it's the wrong question. The exclusion and the suspension"},{"startTime":470.42100000000005,"endTime":476.428,"body":"rates are not the problem. There's a symptom of the problem. Imagine you're driving your car"},{"startTime":476.428,"endTime":481.41599999999994,"body":"down the motorway and suddenly you see smoke coming out of the bonnet. You don't have a smoke"},{"startTime":481.41599999999994,"endTime":487.385,"body":"problem. Yeah? What you've got there is you've got an engine problem. The way to fix your car"},{"startTime":487.385,"endTime":493.371,"body":"isn't to duct tape down the gaps between your bonnet and the body of your car. Turn off the"},{"startTime":493.371,"endTime":498.38300000000004,"body":"fan so nothing blows into, you know, the main cabin and open up the windows to let fresh air"},{"startTime":498.38300000000004,"endTime":503.394,"body":"in. It may appear like the smoke problem has gone, but you've still got an issue. There's still"},{"startTime":503.394,"endTime":509.40099999999995,"body":"something underlying wrong with your car, with your engine. You've been focused on the smoke,"},{"startTime":509.40700000000004,"endTime":514.443,"body":"not the engine, and that's entirely the wrong thing. And the same thing is happening here. We"},{"startTime":514.443,"endTime":522.372,"body":"don't have a suspension or an exclusion problem. What we've got is an SEND problem in terms"},{"startTime":522.372,"endTime":528.426,"body":"of how we identify and support pupils with special educational needs and disabilities, particularly"},{"startTime":528.448,"endTime":533.424,"body":"for those kids with social, emotional, and mental health needs in our schools. We need to be"},{"startTime":533.424,"endTime":540.428,"body":"looking at how we meet those needs in a planned, logical, systematic way both at government"},{"startTime":540.428,"endTime":545.448,"body":"level, local authority level, and at school all level. The exclusions, they're the smoke problem."},{"startTime":546.386,"endTime":551.406,"body":"What's causing the issue? The increasing rates of diagnosis of domestic violence of aces in"},{"startTime":551.406,"endTime":557.428,"body":"our society. That's the engine problem. Kids are walking through school doors with more complex"},{"startTime":557.442,"endTime":564.442,"body":"presentations than ever before. At a government level, simple soundbite solutions like 0 tolerance."},{"startTime":565.372,"endTime":570.373,"body":"You should be focusing on quality first teaching or just raise your game and teach them better."},{"startTime":570.381,"endTime":577.387,"body":"They are not going to cut it. So what does that mean? What can we do in our schools practically?"},{"startTime":578.36,"endTime":583.356,"body":"Well, our behaviour policies and our attendance policies, because attendance and behaviour are"},{"startTime":583.356,"endTime":590.359,"body":"closely linked, need to have a focus on identifying barriers and underlying needs for any mid"},{"startTime":590.359,"endTime":595.3919999999999,"body":"to long term patterns of behaviour. How these policies link and trigger our school's special"},{"startTime":595.3919999999999,"endTime":602.35,"body":"needs support is super important because when you dig down into it, in most cases of persistent"},{"startTime":602.3720000000001,"endTime":608.356,"body":"challenging behaviour or poor attendance, there's an unmet need lying at the bottom of it. The"},{"startTime":608.356,"endTime":614.403,"body":"usual way a student is supported by a school SENCO is through referral. That might be the referral"},{"startTime":614.403,"endTime":620.4110000000001,"body":"of a teacher in school by request of a parent or even the child themselves. But we also have"},{"startTime":620.4110000000001,"endTime":627.352,"body":"to be smart about the way we're collecting data in school because referrals rely on personal"},{"startTime":627.352,"endTime":633.351,"body":"judgment and people's judgment varies. And any system that relies solely on judgment is going"},{"startTime":633.351,"endTime":638.404,"body":"to miss students. So when we're thinking about who gets referred to the SENCO, we need to look"},{"startTime":638.404,"endTime":644.3530000000001,"body":"at how we analyze behaviour data that we're already collecting in school and think about what"},{"startTime":644.3530000000001,"endTime":649.4300000000001,"body":"patterns of data would trigger a leader in school to ask the question, has this child gone under"},{"startTime":649.4300000000001,"endTime":656.352,"body":"the radar, and do they need SEND support? And we, as educators, also have to remember that you"},{"startTime":656.352,"endTime":661.438,"body":"don't necessarily need a diagnosis to have an underlying need. When you look at the list of"},{"startTime":661.438,"endTime":666.434,"body":"adverse childhood experiences that can impact on a developing child, things like experiencing"},{"startTime":666.448,"endTime":673.356,"body":"parental separation, bereavement, parental substance abuse, none of those by themselves are"},{"startTime":673.356,"endTime":679.374,"body":"going to result in a child receiving a diagnosis, but it doesn't mean there isn't an underlying"},{"startTime":679.404,"endTime":685.394,"body":"need. We've got to join the dots more quickly and put in place good enough support, not perfect"},{"startTime":685.394,"endTime":691.3720000000001,"body":"support, but good enough support. And when we get that right, the exclusion rate, suspensions,"},{"startTime":691.378,"endTime":696.421,"body":"and permanent exclusions should naturally go down as a result because we're focusing on the"},{"startTime":696.421,"endTime":702.408,"body":"problem, the engine, not the symptom, the smoke. And when government looks at these problems,"},{"startTime":702.408,"endTime":708.4300000000001,"body":"they've also got to look about how we fund this. Because at the moment, SEND support in school"},{"startTime":708.4300000000001,"endTime":713.426,"body":"from the schools that I'm working with and I'm seeing day after day after day, the needs of"},{"startTime":713.426,"endTime":718.418,"body":"the children are not being funded in a way that's commensurate to the support they require."},{"startTime":719.404,"endTime":725.3820000000001,"body":"Inclusion done well, I'm sorry. It's expensive. And as the numbers of children coming into school"},{"startTime":725.413,"endTime":731.359,"body":"with increased complex needs keeps growing and growing and growing, that's gonna require additional"},{"startTime":731.373,"endTime":737.397,"body":"financial support. Anyway, that's my 2 pennies on how to reduce the exclusion rates. Thanks"},{"startTime":737.397,"endTime":741.398,"body":"for listening today. I hope you found it useful. Next week, I'll be back with a normal episode"},{"startTime":741.398,"endTime":746.4350000000001,"body":"of school behaviour secrets. Until then, have a brilliant week. I look forward to seeing you next"}]}