{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"startTime":87.366,"endTime":92.39399999999999,"body":"Working with kids affected by trauma but not sure how to support them? Want to understand why"},{"startTime":92.39399999999999,"endTime":97.449,"body":"one child affected by adverse childhood experiences might present emotionally charged behaviour"},{"startTime":98.371,"endTime":103.43599999999999,"body":"that's difficult to manage in class, while one of their siblings appears, well, fine? And want"},{"startTime":103.43599999999999,"endTime":109.365,"body":"ideas and strategies for supporting both those kids? Then you are in the right place because"},{"startTime":109.365,"endTime":114.375,"body":"you're going to learn all that and more in this 10 minute episode of School Behaviour Secrets."},{"startTime":115.36099999999999,"endTime":120.411,"body":"Welcome to the School Behaviour Secrets podcast. I'm your host, Simon Currigan. My co host is"},{"startTime":120.411,"endTime":125.41399999999999,"body":"Emma Shackleton, and we're obsessed with helping teachers, school leaders, parents, and, of"},{"startTime":125.41399999999999,"endTime":130.418,"body":"course students when classroom behaviour gets in the way of success. We're gonna share the tried"},{"startTime":130.418,"endTime":135.392,"body":"and tested secrets to classroom management, behavioural special needs, whole school strategy,"},{"startTime":135.398,"endTime":140.418,"body":"and more, all with the aim of helping your students reach their true potential. Plus, we'll"},{"startTime":140.418,"endTime":146.362,"body":"be letting you eavesdrop on our conversations with thought leaders from around the world. So"},{"startTime":146.362,"endTime":151.42899999999997,"body":"you'll get to hear the latest evidence based strategies before anyone else. This is the School"},{"startTime":152.361,"endTime":158.39499999999998,"body":"behaviour secrets podcast. Hi there, Simon Curigan here, and I'm back today with another special"},{"startTime":158.409,"endTime":163.449,"body":"essentials episode where I share some key insights and strategies from an earlier episode that"},{"startTime":163.449,"endTime":168.44799999999998,"body":"can have an impact for the students that you work with or wrapped up in a bite sized snackable"},{"startTime":169.378,"endTime":174.35399999999998,"body":"episode. And if you're enjoying the podcast, please do remember to subscribe in your podcast"},{"startTime":174.35399999999998,"endTime":179.39,"body":"app so you never miss another thing. This week, I'm gonna share part of a conversation that"},{"startTime":179.39,"endTime":186.36399999999998,"body":"I had with Rebecca Brooks back in episode 45 on creating a trauma and attachment aware classroom."},{"startTime":186.378,"endTime":193.358,"body":"We're gonna join the conversation where I asked Rebecca, how come children, siblings, can have"},{"startTime":193.38,"endTime":198.386,"body":"different responses to the same traumatic incidents? You get one child who's presenting very"},{"startTime":198.40800000000002,"endTime":203.418,"body":"difficult, challenging, emotionally charged behaviour in the classroom, while, that child's got"},{"startTime":203.418,"endTime":209.37599999999998,"body":"an older sibling, say, and their teachers are saying that they're fine because they're very"},{"startTime":209.39999999999998,"endTime":214.446,"body":"quiet, very passive. I ask what's going on here and how we can support both."},{"startTime":217.375,"endTime":220.44299999999998,"body":"Yes. And this is a great question because I think this is a big issue for some children. I think"},{"startTime":220.44299999999998,"endTime":225.37099999999998,"body":"what we're looking for there is children who, for example, never raised their hand, never asked"},{"startTime":225.379,"endTime":228.35899999999998,"body":"help. They hand in work and it's clear that they didn't know what they were doing, but they"},{"startTime":228.35899999999998,"endTime":231.39499999999998,"body":"never came to ask you for help. And sometimes as a teacher, that's frustrating. I said you could"},{"startTime":231.39499999999998,"endTime":235.37099999999998,"body":"ask me for help if you didn't understand the question, but you never said. Children are very"},{"startTime":235.37099999999998,"endTime":240.367,"body":"avoidant. We're looking at procrastinating. We're looking at deflecting, maybe lying. We're"},{"startTime":240.367,"endTime":244.446,"body":"looking at children who might be copying. So they're finding different ways to mask the fact"},{"startTime":245.368,"endTime":249.424,"body":"that they don't know what they're doing, but they cannot bring themselves to make their needs"},{"startTime":249.424,"endTime":253.355,"body":"known. So this is what we really talk about, children who cannot make their needs known and"},{"startTime":253.355,"endTime":258.37199999999996,"body":"who have understood at some early points in their life that keeping your head down and being"},{"startTime":258.37199999999996,"endTime":263.38800000000003,"body":"as compliant and invisible as possible is the best way to survive life, really. And I think"},{"startTime":263.38800000000003,"endTime":266.432,"body":"in terms of the classroom, I think those would be the main things I'd be looking at. Children"},{"startTime":266.432,"endTime":272.359,"body":"who appear withdrawn. No child really should be ultra compliant all of the time. You know, you"},{"startTime":272.359,"endTime":276.355,"body":"expect a child occasionally to break out, you know, to do something. But children who don't"},{"startTime":276.355,"endTime":280.443,"body":"do that, children who are perhaps a little bit ingratiating, I've used that word before. It's"},{"startTime":280.443,"endTime":285.351,"body":"a negative sounding word. Children who are going out of their way to make sure that they are"},{"startTime":285.351,"endTime":289.352,"body":"viewed favourably if they're viewed at all, but then children who were always at the side, at"},{"startTime":289.352,"endTime":292.35699999999997,"body":"the back, standing quietly, just be looking out for those children. Because I think, as you"},{"startTime":292.35699999999997,"endTime":297.35,"body":"said, it's really tempting to focus all our attention on the children whose behaviour whose internal"},{"startTime":297.38,"endTime":302.36199999999997,"body":"anxieties are acting out. But there are children whose internal anxieties are being turned inwards,"},{"startTime":302.352,"endTime":305.448,"body":"and those can be more difficult to spot, but we can do a lot to help children in that situation."},{"startTime":306.352,"endTime":310.354,"body":"In terms of support then, in your book, you say one of the most important ways of supporting"},{"startTime":310.354,"endTime":315.38,"body":"pupils who have experienced early trauma is in developing positive adult relationships, particularly"},{"startTime":315.38,"endTime":321.354,"body":"with a key adult in school. Yeah. So why is that key adult so important, and what should they"},{"startTime":321.354,"endTime":325.36199999999997,"body":"be doing to help develop that trusting relationship and bond with the child?"},{"startTime":325.36199999999997,"endTime":329.374,"body":"So I think this takes place in the context of attachment relationships. Attachment relationships"},{"startTime":329.38800000000003,"endTime":334.354,"body":"are important to children. For a young child, the preschool or the school becomes a secondary"},{"startTime":334.384,"endTime":338.36699999999996,"body":"attachment base, really. And if you go to a preschool, you'll see that they have key members"},{"startTime":338.36699999999996,"endTime":341.371,"body":"of staff. They put the children in little groups, and there's a key worker with each group,"},{"startTime":341.371,"endTime":345.419,"body":"and it is to provide that secondary attachment base. So a child's primary attachment should"},{"startTime":345.419,"endTime":349.433,"body":"be at the home with the caregiver, the parents, or whoever's caring for the child. And then"},{"startTime":349.433,"endTime":354.365,"body":"at preschool, the key worker provides a secondary attachment figure. They can do the handover"},{"startTime":354.365,"endTime":358.379,"body":"in the morning. The child feels that sense of safety because they're being handed over from"},{"startTime":358.379,"endTime":362.371,"body":"one set of hands that they trust and know to another set of hands that they trust and know."},{"startTime":362.371,"endTime":365.405,"body":"And we tend to drop that by the time children get to school. We tend to think children shouldn't"},{"startTime":365.405,"endTime":369.365,"body":"really need that anymore. But children who've had disrupted attachments and this can happen"},{"startTime":369.365,"endTime":373.438,"body":"for a lot of reasons, by the way. Child having a disrupted attachment relationship is by no"},{"startTime":373.438,"endTime":379.39099999999996,"body":"means always an indicator of, something gone awry at home. Children who have had extended stays"},{"startTime":379.39099999999996,"endTime":394.379,"body":"in hospital, for example, having that secure attachment base at the school, sometimes children"},{"startTime":394.379,"endTime":398.432,"body":"are not being handed over by a safe pair of hands. So to at least have one safe pair of hands"},{"startTime":398.432,"endTime":403.356,"body":"available during the day, the key adult wouldn't be a counselor in this situation. You wouldn't"},{"startTime":403.356,"endTime":407.43499999999995,"body":"be expected to discuss the children's traumatic please don't do that because actually what these"},{"startTime":407.43499999999995,"endTime":412.375,"body":"children do not need is amateur therapy. Nobody needs that. It's a checking point to reassure"},{"startTime":412.375,"endTime":417.35799999999995,"body":"the children that they are being thought about and held in mind and that there is always a safe"},{"startTime":417.35799999999995,"endTime":421.422,"body":"person that's available to them. And so in terms of what a key adult might actually do, it is"},{"startTime":421.422,"endTime":425.374,"body":"checking in at greeting in the morning. Hello. How's things going? Checking in during the course"},{"startTime":425.374,"endTime":430.38199999999995,"body":"of the day, perhaps at lunchtime, perhaps being available each week to have a chat if anything's"},{"startTime":430.38199999999995,"endTime":434.39099999999996,"body":"going on. And some children will need a lot more support like that than others, and the conversations"},{"startTime":434.413,"endTime":440.36400000000003,"body":"might be quite light or about schoolwork or about the child's pet. Certainly don't need to be"},{"startTime":440.36400000000003,"endTime":445.352,"body":"about deep and meaningful personal things, but it is having that adult at school that makes"},{"startTime":445.352,"endTime":449.432,"body":"you feel as though somebody cares about you and that you are safe with them. There's a lot of"},{"startTime":449.432,"endTime":453.414,"body":"things in school that can be a bit anxiety inducing for children, really, and it can really"},{"startTime":453.414,"endTime":457.35799999999995,"body":"lower their anxiety if they know that at the end of the day, they're gonna get to speak to nice"},{"startTime":457.35799999999995,"endTime":461.39099999999996,"body":"Mr Smith or nice Miss Jones, who will have a quick word with them and and make sure everything's"},{"startTime":461.39099999999996,"endTime":465.43899999999996,"body":"fine. A key, I do, also can be really valuable in supporting transitions through holidays. A"},{"startTime":465.43899999999996,"endTime":469.38300000000004,"body":"postcard home during the holiday, we're thinking of you. I'm looking forward to seeing you next"},{"startTime":469.38300000000004,"endTime":473.375,"body":"term. That can really support children. One of the things with attachment is that what we might"},{"startTime":473.375,"endTime":477.437,"body":"call separation anxiety in anxiety in a young child can continue long beyond infancy and toddlerhood."},{"startTime":477.443,"endTime":482.39099999999996,"body":"So an attachment figure in school or a key adult can help to mitigate separation anxiety for"},{"startTime":482.39099999999996,"endTime":483.389,"body":"children as well."},{"startTime":483.395,"endTime":486.43899999999996,"body":"I heard someone talking about it was in the field of divorce actually, and they were describing"},{"startTime":486.43899999999996,"endTime":491.413,"body":"how to form a trusting relationship. And they said, it's lots of small, almost inconsequential"},{"startTime":492.35900000000004,"endTime":496.37800000000004,"body":"interactions held consistently over time. Is that the kind of thing we're talking about? None"},{"startTime":496.37800000000004,"endTime":501.35699999999997,"body":"of them in themselves are particularly big or meaningful. Yeah. But it's that chain, that consistent"},{"startTime":501.371,"endTime":504.375,"body":"checking in that helps the child learn to bond and trust with you."},{"startTime":504.375,"endTime":508.399,"body":"Absolutely. And we might be surprised who children will turn to as being these key adults in"},{"startTime":508.399,"endTime":513.352,"body":"their life. It may not be the school pastoral lead or whoever it is that you've assigned to"},{"startTime":513.352,"endTime":516.357,"body":"that role. It might be the librarian. It might be the caretaker. It might be the lady in the"},{"startTime":516.357,"endTime":520.399,"body":"office that's kind to you when you've arrived late yet again because because of something that"},{"startTime":520.399,"endTime":523.443,"body":"was very difficult that was happening at home and you couldn't get to school on time. Those"},{"startTime":523.443,"endTime":528.383,"body":"key adults can arise from anywhere. And actually, if the child themselves gravitates towards"},{"startTime":528.383,"endTime":532.417,"body":"an adult, it sometimes could be a good idea to just allow that to happen really and sort of"},{"startTime":532.417,"endTime":536.385,"body":"semi formalize that. And I think one of the things that's really important about this is we"},{"startTime":536.385,"endTime":539.387,"body":"often think, especially as children get towards the end of primary and preparing for secondary"},{"startTime":539.387,"endTime":543.411,"body":"school and through secondary school, that we want children to be more independent. And so we"},{"startTime":543.411,"endTime":547.413,"body":"see sometimes in schools rotating teaching assistants because the child's getting too dependent."},{"startTime":548.358,"endTime":551.418,"body":"Schools may be concerned about the depth of the relationship that's going on there, and these"},{"startTime":551.418,"endTime":556.35,"body":"do need to be professional relationships. But if we want children to be independent, we must"},{"startTime":556.35,"endTime":559.358,"body":"understand that there are building blocks towards that. And the first building block of that"},{"startTime":559.358,"endTime":564.362,"body":"is dependence. Children need to be healthily dependent before they can learn to be healthily"},{"startTime":564.362,"endTime":570.4399999999999,"body":"independent. And when we pick up a child at 6 or 10 or 15 who isn't very independent, just throwing"},{"startTime":570.4399999999999,"endTime":575.382,"body":"them in the deep end of independence will not make them suddenly have those foundational understandings."},{"startTime":575.428,"endTime":580.4399999999999,"body":"Healthy dependence comes before healthy independence, and schools can provide a forum for healthy"},{"startTime":580.4399999999999,"endTime":584.445,"body":"dependence to take place. And one of the ways of doing that is through a key adult."},{"startTime":585.353,"endTime":588.429,"body":"You used a phrase earlier, the child learning that they can be held in mind. Can you talk us"},{"startTime":588.429,"endTime":590.437,"body":"through what that means and why that's important?"},{"startTime":590.437,"endTime":594.429,"body":"Yeah. And I guess it comes back to sort of what I was saying about separation anxiety. But I"},{"startTime":594.429,"endTime":599.385,"body":"think for children who've experienced particularly neglect or different kinds of less than ideal"},{"startTime":599.385,"endTime":604.361,"body":"for early childhoods, There's often a strong drive not to be forgotten, you know, because survival"},{"startTime":604.361,"endTime":610.421,"body":"for a child requires having an adult's attention or doing it yourself in some way. And so these"},{"startTime":610.421,"endTime":614.397,"body":"are both behaviorus that can come out of having a disrupted attachment relationship with child"},{"startTime":614.397,"endTime":618.408,"body":"that really needs to get adult attention because that's what they've learned to do in order"},{"startTime":618.408,"endTime":622.356,"body":"to get their needs met, or children that are really ambivalent towards adult attention because"},{"startTime":622.356,"endTime":625.417,"body":"they're just gonna sort themselves out, and they don't trust any of you lot to do anything helpful"},{"startTime":625.417,"endTime":629.3770000000001,"body":"anyway, and I'm just gonna sort myself out. For either of those groups of children, knowing"},{"startTime":629.3770000000001,"endTime":634.352,"body":"that they are remembered, it seems like a small thing, but it's a really important thing to"},{"startTime":634.352,"endTime":639.3530000000001,"body":"know that the adults in your life actually are thinking about you. You are held in their mind."},{"startTime":639.3530000000001,"endTime":643.3720000000001,"body":"So there's like an invisible thread between you and the people that are supposed to be caring"},{"startTime":643.3720000000001,"endTime":647.3960000000001,"body":"for you and nurturing you. And some children really need it to be demonstrated that that is"},{"startTime":647.3960000000001,"endTime":652.422,"body":"happening because they haven't had the healthy start that would allow them to take that untrust"},{"startTime":652.436,"endTime":656.438,"body":"or to just take it for granted. We're looking at children who don't have any reason to think"},{"startTime":656.438,"endTime":660.414,"body":"that any of the adults in their life given monkeys about them really, and that plays out in"},{"startTime":660.414,"endTime":665.379,"body":"all different kinds of ways. But consistently demonstrating to children in small ways that you"},{"startTime":665.379,"endTime":670.407,"body":"do give a monkey's about them can make enormous amounts of difference in a child's just ability"},{"startTime":670.407,"endTime":673.3530000000001,"body":"to settle down to what it is you're actually asking them to do."},{"startTime":675.4010000000001,"endTime":680.357,"body":"And if you would like to hear my whole conversation with Rebecca, and I definitely recommend"},{"startTime":680.357,"endTime":685.417,"body":"that you do, All you need to do is click the link at the bottom of the episode description and"},{"startTime":685.417,"endTime":691.421,"body":"head back to original episode number 45. If you found today's episode helpful, please take a"},{"startTime":691.421,"endTime":697.4350000000001,"body":"moment to rate and review us. It takes just 30 seconds. And when you do, it makes a real difference"},{"startTime":697.4350000000001,"endTime":703.363,"body":"to us and helps us grow the show. Because when people subscribe, it tells the algorithm gods"},{"startTime":703.363,"endTime":708.3870000000001,"body":"to share school behaviour secrets with other listeners just like you, and that throws some good"},{"startTime":708.3870000000001,"endTime":713.397,"body":"karma out there, helps us grow the show, and get this information to other teachers, school"},{"startTime":713.397,"endTime":718.3770000000001,"body":"leaders, and parents who need this information. Thanks for listening today, and I look forward"},{"startTime":718.3770000000001,"endTime":721.364,"body":"to seeing you next time on School behaviour secrets."}]}