{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"startTime":87.35,"endTime":92.425,"body":"Ever wondered if a pupil you teach has oppositional defiant disorder or ODD? Join us on the"},{"startTime":92.425,"endTime":98.374,"body":"latest episode of School Behaviour Secrets as we remove some of the fog and confusion surrounding"},{"startTime":98.38,"endTime":103.447,"body":"ODD in the classroom from understanding its impact on pupils to recognizing the behaviours that"},{"startTime":103.447,"endTime":109.377,"body":"may surface in the classroom, we've got you covered. Don't miss out. It's time to demystify"},{"startTime":109.41499999999999,"endTime":116.365,"body":"ODD. Welcome to the School Behaviour Secrets podcast. I'm your host, Simon Currigan. My co host"},{"startTime":116.365,"endTime":121.374,"body":"is Emma Shackleton, and we're obsessed with helping teachers, school leaders, parents, and,"},{"startTime":121.374,"endTime":126.362,"body":"of course, students when classroom behaviour gets in the way of success. We're gonna share the"},{"startTime":126.362,"endTime":131.36599999999999,"body":"tried and tested secrets to classroom management, behavioural special needs, whole school strategy,"},{"startTime":131.36599999999999,"endTime":136.398,"body":"and more, all with the aim of helping your students reach their true potential. Plus, we'll"},{"startTime":136.398,"endTime":141.435,"body":"be letting you eavesdrop on our conversations with thought leaders from around the world. So"},{"startTime":141.435,"endTime":147.422,"body":"you'll get to hear the latest evidence based strategies before anyone else. This is the School"},{"startTime":147.422,"endTime":153.355,"body":"Behaviour Secrets podcast. Hi there. Simon Currigan here, and I'm back today to share with you"},{"startTime":153.42399999999998,"endTime":159.355,"body":"another mini essentials episode of School Behaviour Secrets where we share key strategies and"},{"startTime":159.355,"endTime":164.415,"body":"insights from an earlier episode that can have an immediate impact on the students that you"},{"startTime":164.415,"endTime":169.363,"body":"work with. And as always, if you're enjoying this podcast, please make sure you subscribe in"},{"startTime":169.363,"endTime":175.421,"body":"your podcast app so you don't miss out on a single episode. So without further ado, let's jump"},{"startTime":175.421,"endTime":182.369,"body":"in. This week, we're heading all the way back to January 2022 to original episode number 47"},{"startTime":182.40699999999998,"endTime":188.35899999999998,"body":"where my co host, Emma Shackleton, and I took a deep dive into helping educators understand"},{"startTime":188.35899999999998,"endTime":190.35399999999998,"body":"the complexities of ODD."},{"startTime":192.411,"endTime":201.35899999999998,"body":"So ODD is more about that high need to be in control, whereas PDA is about the anxiety that"},{"startTime":201.35899999999998,"endTime":204.37099999999998,"body":"comes around other people making demands upon them."},{"startTime":204.39499999999998,"endTime":209.35399999999998,"body":"Because we've got similar behaviours but different driving needs, it means our response to those"},{"startTime":209.35399999999998,"endTime":214.434,"body":"needs needs to be different. So let's think about why do kids develop ODD? What causes it? And"},{"startTime":214.434,"endTime":218.421,"body":"the truth is, at the moment, researchers don't know. They're not assured. There's all sorts"},{"startTime":218.421,"endTime":224.402,"body":"of research going on to this, but ODD hasn't been linked to any one specific cause. One factor"},{"startTime":224.402,"endTime":229.36599999999999,"body":"might be it might be developmental. It might be linked to changes in the prefrontal cortex."},{"startTime":229.36599999999999,"endTime":233.421,"body":"Now we've talked about the prefrontal cortex lots and lots and lots in this podcast. If you've"},{"startTime":233.421,"endTime":237.429,"body":"listened before, you'll know it's the part of the brain that deals with executive functions."},{"startTime":237.429,"endTime":244.378,"body":"It deals with regulating mood, accepting constraints, being flexible, regulating your emotions"},{"startTime":244.378,"endTime":249.35,"body":"and social interaction. So if that child has a prefrontal cortex that's wired slightly differently,"},{"startTime":249.35,"endTime":253.397,"body":"it's going to affect their ability to integrate in class. It's going to affect their ability"},{"startTime":253.411,"endTime":258.368,"body":"to be flexible. They're going to want to be more in control of their own actions and demands,"},{"startTime":258.368,"endTime":262.39300000000003,"body":"and it might affect the way they perceive other people and engage socially."},{"startTime":262.41499999999996,"endTime":268.375,"body":"And, of course, researchers are wondering if ODD could be genetic. So that means that it would"},{"startTime":268.375,"endTime":276.35299999999995,"body":"be inherited from 1 or both parents, like some other disorders, like autism, like ADHD, for example."},{"startTime":276.385,"endTime":281.35699999999997,"body":"Another question I often get asked about ODD is, is it learned? Okay. Is this something to do"},{"startTime":281.35699999999997,"endTime":286.418,"body":"with parenting? And the truth is kids with ODD will present very, very challenging behavior"},{"startTime":286.418,"endTime":291.416,"body":"in the home, which will often result in that negative behaviour being reinforced from parents,"},{"startTime":291.422,"endTime":296.442,"body":"you know, by giving too much attention, which feeds that behaviour in future, or parents might"},{"startTime":296.442,"endTime":301.422,"body":"not feel they have the skills in place to put in place consistent boundaries because, otherwise,"},{"startTime":301.422,"endTime":306.42499999999995,"body":"they would constantly be putting in place boundaries with their kids for every little behaviour,"},{"startTime":306.435,"endTime":311.383,"body":"and some parents will stop trying to enforce those boundaries just for the sake of some harmony"},{"startTime":311.389,"endTime":316.35299999999995,"body":"in the household. So if you've got ODD, you're gonna bring more challenging behaviour, which"},{"startTime":316.35299999999995,"endTime":318.406,"body":"is going to need a different kind of parenting style."},{"startTime":318.406,"endTime":324.422,"body":"Well, that's right. And it's important to note that bad parenting alone can't cause ODD on its"},{"startTime":324.422,"endTime":331.421,"body":"own. It's a bit like chicken and egg. ODD kids are naturally harder to parent because of their"},{"startTime":331.421,"endTime":337.408,"body":"temperament, which can lead then to a negative parenting style, and that results in more challenging"},{"startTime":337.414,"endTime":342.354,"body":"behaviour, which is even harder to parent, and around and around and around we go."},{"startTime":342.354,"endTime":346.43499999999995,"body":"So let's have a look at a couple of strategies that will work with kids in the classroom who"},{"startTime":346.43499999999995,"endTime":353.381,"body":"present ODD. So kids with ODD often respond well to extrinsic rewards. So it's time to break"},{"startTime":353.381,"endTime":358.429,"body":"out those reward charts. Now in this podcast, we've talked in the past how the ideal is, you"},{"startTime":358.437,"endTime":363.37699999999995,"body":"know, to encourage kids with intrinsic behaviour that we do the right thing because it's the"},{"startTime":363.37699999999995,"endTime":367.433,"body":"right thing, but you've got to work with what you've got. You've got to use what's affected"},{"startTime":367.433,"endTime":373.35299999999995,"body":"with the children that are in front of you. And the fact is research shows that using extrinsic"},{"startTime":373.375,"endTime":378.442,"body":"reward systems is very effective with kids with ODD. So we need to get our reward charts. And"},{"startTime":378.442,"endTime":384.42600000000004,"body":"on those reward charts, we need to be very specific about the behaviours we are looking for from"},{"startTime":384.42600000000004,"endTime":390.384,"body":"that child. We want to make the criteria for success objective. So we could put on a target"},{"startTime":390.384,"endTime":395.351,"body":"along the lines of to behave better in class. But, actually, what does that mean? It could mean"},{"startTime":395.35900000000004,"endTime":399.40700000000004,"body":"a variety of things. It could be about how you engage during whole class introductions and whole"},{"startTime":399.40700000000004,"endTime":404.371,"body":"class conversations. It could be about trying hard with your work. It could be about not being"},{"startTime":404.371,"endTime":408.395,"body":"physically aggressive to the other children. It's just too broad. So with our reward chart,"},{"startTime":408.395,"endTime":413.404,"body":"we need to be super specific about the things we're looking for. So that might be along the"},{"startTime":413.404,"endTime":418.408,"body":"lines of putting up your hand 3 times on the carpet. That is something the child has done or"},{"startTime":418.408,"endTime":424.356,"body":"not done. Where there is a gray area and bear in mind, the child here with ODD, one of their"},{"startTime":424.356,"endTime":428.41200000000003,"body":"characteristics is they're going to be argumentative If your targets are in in that gray area"},{"startTime":428.41200000000003,"endTime":432.43600000000004,"body":"or woolly, you know, and you're using a reward chart, then they might start arguing about whether"},{"startTime":432.43600000000004,"endTime":436.419,"body":"they've achieved the target or not. So we want something they've done or they haven't done that's"},{"startTime":436.419,"endTime":442.41099999999994,"body":"very, very objective. And then we need to be consistent on our expectations and delivering the"},{"startTime":442.41099999999994,"endTime":447.38300000000004,"body":"rewards. If we say we're gonna promise something, if they get 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 stickers on their"},{"startTime":447.38300000000004,"endTime":452.37800000000004,"body":"chart, then we have to deliver it. Otherwise, the child won't believe in the system, won't believe"},{"startTime":452.37800000000004,"endTime":456.394,"body":"they're gonna get the rewards and it loses its effectiveness. Another thing you can do with"},{"startTime":456.394,"endTime":462.41499999999996,"body":"reward charts is to vary the rewards because the system gets boring otherwise. And if your criteria"},{"startTime":462.41499999999996,"endTime":467.433,"body":"are simple and objective, there's no middle ground to argue about whether the reward was earned."},{"startTime":467.433,"endTime":472.39700000000005,"body":"Use phrases, if they try to argue like, I'm not going to argue about what I've seen with my"},{"startTime":472.39700000000005,"endTime":477.35400000000004,"body":"own eyes and the decision has been made when you're discussing whether the child has met the"},{"startTime":477.35400000000004,"endTime":480.352,"body":"criteria or not. That will close down the argument. I"},{"startTime":480.352,"endTime":485.42100000000005,"body":"think closing down the argument is key actually because sometimes adults get very drawn into"},{"startTime":486.35900000000004,"endTime":492.351,"body":"arguments with children, and children with ODD are like world class arguers. They're very well"},{"startTime":492.351,"endTime":497.36299999999994,"body":"practiced. What we've got to realize is that an argument is like a game of table tennis. It"},{"startTime":497.36299999999994,"endTime":504.38199999999995,"body":"takes 2. So one person, the adult, needs to put the bat down and walk away. So having those"},{"startTime":504.38199999999995,"endTime":510.38199999999995,"body":"closure phrases like I'm not going to argue or the decision has been made, and then should be"},{"startTime":510.38199999999995,"endTime":515.441,"body":"physically turning away, walking away, indicating. What I sometimes see is adults saying, I'm"},{"startTime":515.441,"endTime":522.369,"body":"not going to argue about it, and then carrying on arguing about it. So you've got to, you know,"},{"startTime":522.369,"endTime":527.406,"body":"say it with conviction. And don't worry if you don't have the last word. So don't worry if the"},{"startTime":527.406,"endTime":533.406,"body":"child comes back with something because they will, but be the grown up, and don't you feel like"},{"startTime":533.406,"endTime":538.422,"body":"you have to have the last word. So let them have their say. You say what you need to say, and"},{"startTime":538.422,"endTime":544.383,"body":"then that's it. Stop engaging with that behaviour. Otherwise, it's easy to get tied up in knots,"},{"startTime":544.383,"endTime":549.355,"body":"and you start negotiating and compromising and going round and round in circles, and it just"},{"startTime":549.355,"endTime":554.398,"body":"gets really complicated. So choose to put them back down and walk away. Another useful strategy"},{"startTime":554.404,"endTime":560.351,"body":"is to give lots of choices about the work where you can. So you can give choices about where"},{"startTime":560.351,"endTime":565.412,"body":"it's done, for example. So you can say to the child, it's up to you. You can work here at the"},{"startTime":565.412,"endTime":571.361,"body":"table, or you can work in the book corner, or you can lay on the beanbag to do your work. You"},{"startTime":571.361,"endTime":576.413,"body":"can give choices about how the work is done. So maybe let them use to write in pen or write"},{"startTime":576.413,"endTime":582.422,"body":"in pencil or write on a whiteboard and photocopy it or use post it notes or have a special notebook."},{"startTime":582.444,"endTime":589.395,"body":"Give choices so it doesn't feel like you are trying to control everything. And a great way to"},{"startTime":589.395,"endTime":596.356,"body":"do that is use the language of choice. So say things like, when you're ready, or it's up to"},{"startTime":596.356,"endTime":603.403,"body":"you, or you decide, and that really takes away that pressure of the adult trying to control"},{"startTime":603.403,"endTime":609.388,"body":"the child, and it helps the child with ODD to feel like they've got some control and they are"},{"startTime":609.388,"endTime":610.442,"body":"doing some of the decision making."},{"startTime":610.448,"endTime":615.44,"body":"Linked to that is an approach called limited choice for managing behaviour. Very, very similarly,"},{"startTime":615.44,"endTime":619.44,"body":"imagine you've got a child who's refusing to come in from outside. What you do is give them"},{"startTime":619.44,"endTime":624.4150000000001,"body":"2 separate options. So you might say to them, well, you can go in through the reception door,"},{"startTime":624.4150000000001,"endTime":629.363,"body":"or you can come in through the year 6 door. And giving them that choice makes them feel like"},{"startTime":629.363,"endTime":633.362,"body":"they're in control of the outcome. And as Emma said, finish that off by saying, you know, it's"},{"startTime":633.362,"endTime":636.398,"body":"your choice. You're in control. So you can go in through reception or you can go in through"},{"startTime":636.398,"endTime":639.365,"body":"year 6. It's entirely your choice. I don't mind."},{"startTime":639.365,"endTime":644.4010000000001,"body":"I think with limited choices too, it's important to make sure that you're limiting to probably"},{"startTime":644.4010000000001,"endTime":650.351,"body":"2 choices and make sure that you're happy with either outcome because where I've seen this technique"},{"startTime":650.351,"endTime":655.443,"body":"fail is where the adult has given 2 choices, one that they would really like the child to pick"},{"startTime":655.443,"endTime":660.432,"body":"and one that they don't want the child to pick. So in your example, Simon, about coming in,"},{"startTime":660.432,"endTime":666.392,"body":"if the adult says, well, you can either come in or you can stay out when really you want them"},{"startTime":666.392,"endTime":671.3720000000001,"body":"to come in, you know what's gonna happen. The child is going to choose the, well, I'll stay"},{"startTime":671.3720000000001,"endTime":676.4110000000001,"body":"outside choice then. And if you've given that as an option, it feels like, oh, you've been foiled."},{"startTime":676.417,"endTime":681.381,"body":"So make sure you think through the options and you're happy with either one. So if you're given"},{"startTime":681.381,"endTime":685.448,"body":"the option, you can come through the reception door or come in through the year 6 door. Don't"},{"startTime":685.448,"endTime":689.352,"body":"then tell them off for choosing the year 6 door if that's what they do."},{"startTime":689.352,"endTime":693.368,"body":"And you've gotta sound super neutral. Not like you're trying to force them towards one choice."},{"startTime":693.368,"endTime":697.364,"body":"You gotta sound super neutral. Now is not the time to be assertive. It's more dialing it back"},{"startTime":697.364,"endTime":699.4440000000001,"body":"to neutral saying, yeah, do that one or that one. I don't mind either way."},{"startTime":699.4440000000001,"endTime":703.446,"body":"It's feigning a little bit of disinterest, so it takes the heat out of it, isn't it?"},{"startTime":705.442,"endTime":711.386,"body":"And if you'd like to hear more, just click the link at the bottom of the episode description,"},{"startTime":711.386,"endTime":717.388,"body":"your podcast app, to head back to original episode 47. If you found today's episode helpful,"},{"startTime":717.388,"endTime":723.369,"body":"please take a moment to rate and review us. It takes just 30 seconds. And did you know that"},{"startTime":723.369,"endTime":727.4110000000001,"body":"hitting that subscribe button not only helps you stay updated with all the latest episodes,"},{"startTime":727.3580000000001,"endTime":732.4250000000001,"body":"but it also supports our mission to spread valuable insights to fellow teachers, school leaders,"},{"startTime":732.4250000000001,"endTime":737.437,"body":"and parents who could really benefit from this information. Yep. It's a bit like giving a high"},{"startTime":737.437,"endTime":742.433,"body":"five to the education community and saying, let's make a difference together. So go ahead, hit"},{"startTime":742.433,"endTime":748.388,"body":"subscribe and let's keep this learning journey going strong. Thanks for listening. I look forward"},{"startTime":748.388,"endTime":753.394,"body":"to seeing you next time for another educational episode of School Behaviour Secrets."}]}