{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"startTime":87.35799999999999,"endTime":94.44099999999999,"body":"The death of a close family member can deeply affect a student's emotional well-being, leaving educators wondering how best"},{"startTime":94.44099999999999,"endTime":102.42999999999999,"body":"to provide support during such difficult times. Justine Wilson, counselor from the Edwards Trust, joins us in our latest podcast"},{"startTime":102.44399999999999,"endTime":111.42399999999999,"body":"to shed light on initiating conversations about grief, offering invaluable advice on what to say, and equally important, what"},{"startTime":111.42399999999999,"endTime":120.41199999999999,"body":"to avoid saying to students grappling with a loss. Tune in to find out more. Welcome to the School Behaviour Secrets podcast."},{"startTime":120.434,"endTime":127.41,"body":"I'm your host, Simon Currigan. My co host is Emma Shackleton, and we're obsessed obsessed with helping teachers, school leaders,"},{"startTime":127.41,"endTime":133.43599999999998,"body":"parents, and of course, students when classroom behaviour gets in the way of success. We're gonna share the tried and tested"},{"startTime":133.43599999999998,"endTime":140.402,"body":"secrets to classroom management, behavioural special needs, whole school strategy, and more, all with the aim of helping your"},{"startTime":140.41,"endTime":147.438,"body":"students reach their true potential. Plus, we'll be letting you eavesdrop on our conversations with thought leaders from around"},{"startTime":147.438,"endTime":155.425,"body":"the world. So you'll get to hear the latest evidence based strategies before anyone else. This is the School Behaviour Secrets"},{"startTime":155.43099999999998,"endTime":162.401,"body":"podcast. Hi there. Simon Currigan here. And today, I'm going to share with you a slightly longer essentials episode of School"},{"startTime":162.401,"endTime":168.43,"body":"Behaviour Secrets than normal, where I share indispensable strategies and insights from an earlier episode that can have an"},{"startTime":168.43,"endTime":174.428,"body":"immediate impact on the students that you work with. Remember, if you're enjoying the podcast, please remember to subscribe"},{"startTime":174.434,"endTime":183.398,"body":"in your podcast app so you never miss a single episode. So today, we are revisiting an interview with Justine Wilson who's"},{"startTime":183.398,"endTime":190.439,"body":"clinical lead at Edwards Trust, a charity that specializes in supporting children experiencing bereavement, where we discussed"},{"startTime":190.439,"endTime":199.369,"body":"some of the ways in which adults can sensitively support students with the issues of death, grief, and loss. We're going to"},{"startTime":199.369,"endTime":209.35899999999998,"body":"pick up my conversation with Justine about midway through the interview. But when it comes to bereavement, what kind of behaviours"},{"startTime":209.35899999999998,"endTime":214.41,"body":"might be considered normal for a grieving child? And then what I'm driving that really is what kind of behaviours might highlight"},{"startTime":214.41,"endTime":219.40099999999998,"body":"to us that the child isn't coping, there's a cause for concern, there might need some additional support."},{"startTime":219.40099999999998,"endTime":227.408,"body":"I think certainly being emotional and showing the concern, they may be talking about the person that's died, they may want"},{"startTime":227.416,"endTime":235.379,"body":"go over time and again, actually, things that have happened so that they can sort of process and make sense of things. All"},{"startTime":235.379,"endTime":243.421,"body":"of those things are are quite normal and all of the responses that we've previously spoken about can be considered to be normal"},{"startTime":243.43699999999998,"endTime":252.418,"body":"in terms of the grieving process. I guess the time to be concerned is if that is prolonged for, you know, a long period of"},{"startTime":252.418,"endTime":261.389,"body":"time, and that it's beginning to impact on day to day coping, day to day functioning in terms of you know, it might be that"},{"startTime":261.395,"endTime":268.43399999999997,"body":"it's really impacting on school work and their ability to engage with education and just to get through the day. Sometimes,"},{"startTime":268.448,"endTime":275.44,"body":"you know, if if things are starting to feel really difficult, then it may be really helpful for them to have a bit of space"},{"startTime":275.44,"endTime":283.397,"body":"to explore what's going on. And as I said already, it will really also depend on the support around them. So, you know, if"},{"startTime":283.413,"endTime":293.422,"body":"they have a support network and people that they can talk to and the family are very open and promoting the ability to access"},{"startTime":293.422,"endTime":301.443,"body":"memories and share that information. That can be really helpful. But for, obviously, for other grieving parents or family"},{"startTime":301.443,"endTime":311.387,"body":"members that might be really painful to support that and it might be quite difficult to support the grieving child when you're"},{"startTime":311.387,"endTime":321.38599999999997,"body":"grieving yourself and so it's not always easy to offer that. So it's a combination of things really, I suppose, that we would"},{"startTime":321.38599999999997,"endTime":336.382,"body":"look for. Does this person need support in terms of what was their behaviour like before the bereavement When"},{"startTime":336.399,"endTime":341.355,"body":"When you think about the conversations you've had with the many children that you've supported, what were the sort of things"},{"startTime":341.355,"endTime":347.447,"body":"that they said that their teachers or educators had done or they wished they'd have done that are helpful to them?"},{"startTime":347.447,"endTime":356.42100000000005,"body":"Yeah. I think there is, as we know, a bit of a stigma still about talking about death and dying generally within society,"},{"startTime":357.35900000000004,"endTime":365.44500000000005,"body":"and it's not an easy subject to broach. And I guess, you know, certainly for the young people that have attended Edwards Trust,"},{"startTime":366.39300000000003,"endTime":374.35400000000004,"body":"we've made some films recently actually with some of our young people who have talked about the support that they had in schools"},{"startTime":374.351,"endTime":381.361,"body":"and what they wished would have been in place and actually what they experienced. And one of the things I think first of all"},{"startTime":381.361,"endTime":390.40099999999995,"body":"is just an acknowledgement of the loss. So, you know, rather than teachers not mentioning it at all and pupils being unsure"},{"startTime":390.41499999999996,"endTime":398.43899999999996,"body":"actually what people know and whether other pupils know, whether teachers know. It's just that open conversation of acknowledging"},{"startTime":399.361,"endTime":407.36799999999994,"body":"that there has been a loss and that actually, it might be difficult at times. So that is definitely helpful. I think the ability"},{"startTime":407.35400000000004,"endTime":416.39099999999996,"body":"to have someone to talk to about what's going on is really useful. And things like practical things actually, like a time"},{"startTime":416.39099999999996,"endTime":424.432,"body":"out card. So if a pupil feels that they're really struggling to have that facility to be able to just take a little bit of"},{"startTime":424.432,"endTime":433.38699999999994,"body":"time out and for it to be okay and be supported by school, I think is really, really valuable because one of the things about"},{"startTime":433.38699999999994,"endTime":441.37800000000004,"body":"grief is that we don't actually know when things are going to impact on us. And it may be that emotions start to rise and"},{"startTime":441.37800000000004,"endTime":449.403,"body":"can hit us when we least expect it. And so I suppose from a school perspective, if we're alert to that and we're supporting"},{"startTime":450.389,"endTime":457.42600000000004,"body":"pupils to be able to take some time out and acknowledge that that can happen, I think that's really helpful. Some of the activities"},{"startTime":457.448,"endTime":466.43100000000004,"body":"that we do in class, obviously, if we're thinking about celebrating Father's Day, Mother's Day, other events that might be"},{"startTime":466.43100000000004,"endTime":475.43499999999995,"body":"really significant in a child's life and and their sort of experience with family. It's worth thinking about the fact that"},{"startTime":475.43499999999995,"endTime":482.44500000000005,"body":"that might impact on that particular child. And if we can, give them a bit of advance warning that we might be looking at"},{"startTime":482.44500000000005,"endTime":489.43899999999996,"body":"that subject, you know, in the next lesson. And, you know, how do they feel about it? Do they want to engage with it? You"},{"startTime":489.43899999999996,"endTime":498.37699999999995,"body":"know, because we can't assume, for example, because dad's died that a child might not want to make a father's day card for"},{"startTime":498.37699999999995,"endTime":504.42499999999995,"body":"example because actually that might be really helpful and they may want to do that. They may want to take it to the grave"},{"startTime":504.42499999999995,"endTime":513.357,"body":"for example. So I think there's something about not making assumptions, but having that dialogue and open conversation really"},{"startTime":513.365,"endTime":519.407,"body":"so that pupils know that they can talk about what's going on for them if they feel they need to."},{"startTime":519.445,"endTime":526.361,"body":"In general, in those early days, who should be initiating those early conversations? Should we, as the adults, be approaching"},{"startTime":526.361,"endTime":531.374,"body":"the child to say, look, we know something's happened and that, you know, we're here to support you? Or is it better to leave"},{"startTime":531.374,"endTime":535.4,"body":"the child to come to you, but run the risk then that they feel that no one cares?"},{"startTime":535.414,"endTime":544.365,"body":"I think I would certainly advocate for the first option there, Simon, which is let's have that conversation in terms of, you"},{"startTime":544.365,"endTime":552.436,"body":"know, we know what's happened. We are aware of it. If you need some time out, if you need to talk, then that's okay. Because"},{"startTime":552.436,"endTime":560.403,"body":"I think if we leave the onus on the child, then that can be difficult actually. You know, we're asking people to be quite"},{"startTime":560.403,"endTime":568.406,"body":"vulnerable, aren't we, in terms of this is what's happened. This might be really different from every other child's experience"},{"startTime":568.42,"endTime":576.402,"body":"in this classroom, and that might be difficult for me to ask for what I need. So I think if the teacher's taking the initiative,"},{"startTime":576.424,"endTime":579.358,"body":"then I think that's that's really helpful."},{"startTime":579.3629999999999,"endTime":581.408,"body":"What sort of things should we avoid saying and doing?"},{"startTime":581.414,"endTime":590.365,"body":"I think there's something about simple and honest communication. So we can all be guilty actually of using euphemisms when"},{"startTime":590.365,"endTime":598.442,"body":"we're talking about death. So people might say that person has gone to sleep, or they're watching over you, or they're in"},{"startTime":598.442,"endTime":608.359,"body":"the stars. And it may feel like it softens the blow almost and makes it easier for the child to kind of take on board. But"},{"startTime":608.359,"endTime":617.362,"body":"I think for children often they can take that literally. So you can find that children, for example, might struggle to want"},{"startTime":617.362,"endTime":623.399,"body":"to go to bed and go to sleep if they've been told that someone's gone to sleep because it might feel really scary actually"},{"startTime":623.413,"endTime":631.354,"body":"or if they're told that somebody's lost, we've lost them. Where are they? Let's try and find them, you know, where they must"},{"startTime":631.354,"endTime":638.429,"body":"be somewhere. If we say that somebody's in a better place, what does that mean and why can't we go and visit them, for example,"},{"startTime":639.352,"endTime":646.4200000000001,"body":"You know? So I think our language, if we can think about the things that we say, that can be really helpful. We want to try"},{"startTime":646.4200000000001,"endTime":654.3870000000001,"body":"and make it better often, don't we, when children are distressed and when they're upset. And so we can try and say things"},{"startTime":654.4010000000001,"endTime":662.4440000000001,"body":"that sort of minimise what's going on. I know how you feel, you know, you need to be strong, those sort of things. But it's"},{"startTime":663.35,"endTime":670.446,"body":"not necessarily helpful because what message are we giving the children then? Are we saying it's not okay, actually, to experience"},{"startTime":671.384,"endTime":680.399,"body":"what you're revealing and to be able to show that. So I think it's about, you know, thinking about the language we use, trying"},{"startTime":680.399,"endTime":690.374,"body":"to be clear and and simple in what we say, but don't be afraid to use 'dead' or 'dying' and the specific terms. And I think"},{"startTime":690.389,"endTime":698.443,"body":"part of the difficulty we have is that as adults, we can find it difficult to have those frank and honest conversations. So"},{"startTime":698.443,"endTime":708.3580000000001,"body":"it can feel quite brutal to talk in that way to children. But as we know, they respond well to factual information, and they"},{"startTime":708.3580000000001,"endTime":716.424,"body":"can cope with it as long as it's age appropriate language and we don't necessarily overload them with information, it feels"},{"startTime":716.424,"endTime":718.378,"body":"like that's the best approach."},{"startTime":718.432,"endTime":724.443,"body":"What would you say to a teacher or a teaching assistant who's got a child in their class who's recently had a death in the"},{"startTime":724.443,"endTime":730.398,"body":"family and they want to support the child, but they're worried about saying the wrong thing, what would you advise them?"},{"startTime":730.398,"endTime":742.386,"body":"I think don't be afraid to open the conversation, really. And as we've said already, take the initiative, conversation if"},{"startTime":745.395,"endTime":752.399,"body":"they want that. And I think if children feel that they're listened to and that there is time for them to talk if they need"},{"startTime":752.399,"endTime":762.379,"body":"to, then that's amazing. It's about offering opportunities to remember those opportunities to talk, but also space if they"},{"startTime":762.379,"endTime":770.357,"body":"need it just to have a little bit of time away as well. I think it's being open, and I think it's being available and just"},{"startTime":770.357,"endTime":779.354,"body":"being aware that their grief can surface at any time. So, you know, maybe just a watchful eye at times as well. The other"},{"startTime":779.354,"endTime":789.352,"body":"thing I would say actually for school staff generally is that this subject is difficult. And as we know, you know, most people"},{"startTime":789.352,"endTime":797.408,"body":"do experience a loss at some point during their lives. And for some school staff, they may also be experiencing their own"},{"startTime":797.446,"endTime":817.4110000000001,"body":"personal issues or losses. And it may bring up things for them too. And they may find that it's really worth thinking about,"},{"startTime":817.4110000000001,"endTime":825.413,"body":"am I the right person to support this child in their grief? Because I might have a lot going on myself and might find it difficult"},{"startTime":825.357,"endTime":831.364,"body":"to be available. And, you know, it might bring things up for me as well about the losses I have."},{"startTime":831.364,"endTime":837.397,"body":"You've mentioned lots of practical ideas to support kids, but if you're a teacher or a parent listening to this podcast, what's"},{"startTime":837.397,"endTime":842.441,"body":"the first step you can take today to start supporting those pupils around the issues of death, grief, and bereavement? You"},{"startTime":842.441,"endTime":847.413,"body":"mentioned you've got some videos on your website and you've got some resources. How can they get hold of those?"},{"startTime":847.413,"endTime":854.366,"body":"There's quite a lot of resources in the videos as I say. So if they just go to our website, which is edwardstrust.org.uk,"},{"startTime":856.3720000000001,"endTime":857.442,"body":"they're all available on there."},{"startTime":860.424,"endTime":867.4010000000001,"body":"And if you would like to hear more about how the death of a family member may affect a child and the types of behaviours we"},{"startTime":867.4010000000001,"endTime":874.431,"body":"may see at home or in school as a result, please click the link at the bottom of the episode description to go back to original"},{"startTime":875.3530000000001,"endTime":883.408,"body":"episode number 50. If you found today's episode helpful, we'd really appreciate your support. It only takes you 30 seconds"},{"startTime":883.408,"endTime":891.4060000000001,"body":"to sprinkle some podcast joy by rating and reviewing us. Trust us. This tiny gesture will make a big difference because hitting"},{"startTime":891.4060000000001,"endTime":898.434,"body":"the subscribe button not only guarantees you won't miss out on any future episodes, but also helps us share valuable insights"},{"startTime":898.434,"endTime":905.37,"body":"to educate the school leaders and parents everywhere. Thanks for tuning in, and I look forward to seeing you next time for"},{"startTime":905.37,"endTime":907.364,"body":"another School Behaviour Secrets."}]}