{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"startTime":87.374,"endTime":92.40199999999999,"body":"Are some of your students stuck in a never ending cycle of engaging in negative behaviour and"},{"startTime":92.40199999999999,"endTime":98.363,"body":"getting consequences as a result, and yet the consequences don't seem to make a difference."},{"startTime":98.377,"endTime":104.40299999999999,"body":"So your pupil just keeps repeating the same behaviour over and over. Well, today, we're going"},{"startTime":104.40299999999999,"endTime":111.417,"body":"to reveal why that might happen and how to move pupils onto a pattern of success. So keep listening."},{"startTime":112.387,"endTime":117.431,"body":"Welcome to the School Behaviour Secrets podcast. I'm your host, Simon Currigan. My cohost is"},{"startTime":117.431,"endTime":122.447,"body":"Emma Shackleton, and we're obsessed with helping teachers, school leaders, parents, and, of"},{"startTime":122.447,"endTime":127.445,"body":"course, students when classroom behaviour gets in the way of success. We're gonna share the tried"},{"startTime":127.445,"endTime":132.41899999999998,"body":"and tested secrets to classroom management, behavioural special needs, whole school strategy,"},{"startTime":132.425,"endTime":138.352,"body":"and more, all with the aim of helping your students reach their true potential. Plus, we'll"},{"startTime":138.352,"endTime":143.38799999999998,"body":"be letting you eavesdrop on our conversations with thought leaders from around the world. So"},{"startTime":143.38799999999998,"endTime":149.375,"body":"you'll get to hear the latest evidence based strategies before anyone else. This is the School"},{"startTime":149.375,"endTime":155.392,"body":"Behaviour Secrets podcast. Hi there. My name is Simon Currigan, and welcome to a brand new episode"},{"startTime":155.40800000000002,"endTime":160.356,"body":"of school behaviour secrets. I've got a cat called Mittens, and the way she looks at me, I know"},{"startTime":160.356,"endTime":166.378,"body":"she's constantly judging everything I do and not in a good way. It's stressing me out. I'm joined"},{"startTime":166.378,"endTime":169.438,"body":"as ever by my nonjudgmental cohost, Emma Shackleton. Hi, Emma."},{"startTime":169.438,"endTime":170.41199999999998,"body":"Hi, Simon."},{"startTime":170.426,"endTime":171.44799999999998,"body":"Kick off with a quick question?"},{"startTime":172.35399999999998,"endTime":172.404,"body":"Obviously."},{"startTime":172.442,"endTime":177.415,"body":"Perfect. Were you ever told off at school for something that you didn't do?"},{"startTime":177.445,"endTime":183.39600000000002,"body":"Yes. And I could still remember it really clearly now. When I was in primary school and I was"},{"startTime":183.39600000000002,"endTime":190.432,"body":"about 8 or 9 years old, I got sent to the head teacher for flicking a dried pea across the table"},{"startTime":190.432,"endTime":197.437,"body":"at a boy called Steven, and it wasn't even me that did it. It was the girl next to me, and I"},{"startTime":197.437,"endTime":200.40800000000002,"body":"was absolutely gutted about that. Anyway"},{"startTime":200.44,"endTime":202.35199999999998,"body":"Has it scarred you?"},{"startTime":202.35199999999998,"endTime":208.446,"body":"Well, I was just gonna say I'm over it now. Okay. But only just. So what's the tenuous link"},{"startTime":208.446,"endTime":210.351,"body":"to today's episode?"},{"startTime":210.422,"endTime":216.36599999999999,"body":"So today, we're gonna look at why punishments by themselves often aren't enough to change the"},{"startTime":216.36599999999999,"endTime":222.36599999999999,"body":"behaviour of some individual students and why those students might persist with a negative"},{"startTime":222.404,"endTime":229.40099999999998,"body":"cycle of behaviours despite being hit with consequence after consequence after consequences."},{"startTime":230.355,"endTime":232.429,"body":"And we'll be asking, why don't they just learn?"},{"startTime":233.351,"endTime":238.379,"body":"Good stuff. But before we get to that, I'd like to ask you, yes, you, dear listener, if you"},{"startTime":238.379,"endTime":244.423,"body":"are finding our podcast useful, don't forget to hit the subscribe button so that you never miss another episode."},{"startTime":245.369,"endTime":250.35399999999998,"body":"And if you're interested in understanding why your students behave the way that they do, we've"},{"startTime":250.35399999999998,"endTime":256.36199999999997,"body":"also got a really good free download that goes along with this episode that can help. It's called"},{"startTime":256.36199999999997,"endTime":257.424,"body":"the SEND behaviour handbook."},{"startTime":257.447,"endTime":262.429,"body":"It's a simple tool for linking the behaviours that you see in class with possible underlying"},{"startTime":262.443,"endTime":266.373,"body":"needs, such as trauma, autism, and ADHD."},{"startTime":267.358,"endTime":272.354,"body":"Now, obviously, it's not there for us as educators to try and make a diagnosis because we're"},{"startTime":272.354,"endTime":275.408,"body":"not qualified to do that. That's the role of medical professionals."},{"startTime":275.438,"endTime":281.351,"body":"But what you can do is start to get the ball rolling to help you get the right professionals"},{"startTime":281.382,"endTime":287.418,"body":"involved and also help you get early intervention strategies into place because that's always"},{"startTime":287.418,"endTime":289.36400000000003,"body":"going to benefit the child."},{"startTime":289.37,"endTime":294.352,"body":"The handbook also comes with fact sheets containing key information and strategies about conditions"},{"startTime":294.358,"endTime":300.44399999999996,"body":"like PDA, that's pathological demand avoidance, ODD, oppositional defiant disorder, fetal alcohol"},{"startTime":300.44399999999996,"endTime":302.43,"body":"spectrum disorder, and more."},{"startTime":303.36,"endTime":307.39300000000003,"body":"So if you'd like to get a hold of your free copy, we'll put a direct link in the show notes"},{"startTime":307.39300000000003,"endTime":312.423,"body":"to where you can download it from the website. All you've got to do is open your podcast app,"},{"startTime":312.445,"endTime":317.433,"body":"tap on the episode, and that will bring up the episode description where you'll be able to see"},{"startTime":317.433,"endTime":319.355,"body":"the link and click."},{"startTime":319.369,"endTime":325.369,"body":"That said, it's time to reach into the oven, pull out the baking tray, and prick the piping"},{"startTime":325.369,"endTime":332.35699999999997,"body":"hot sausage we call behaviour. So we're gonna think about why punishments work and why they don't"},{"startTime":332.35699999999997,"endTime":337.416,"body":"work and how they fail to influence the behavior of children. He seems to be constantly caught"},{"startTime":337.416,"endTime":341.424,"body":"in this cycle of behaviour detention, behaviour detention, behaviour detention, and see how we"},{"startTime":341.424,"endTime":347.351,"body":"can move on from that. And I think what we need to do is start by talking about punishment from"},{"startTime":347.351,"endTime":353.369,"body":"a scientific perspective and think about what punishment actually is. And sometimes people confuse"},{"startTime":353.44399999999996,"endTime":359.38199999999995,"body":"the difference between a punishment and negative reinforcement and kinda use the two terms interchangeably"},{"startTime":359.44399999999996,"endTime":364.39599999999996,"body":"when they're not actually the same thing. If we start by thinking about a punishment, it's something"},{"startTime":364.39599999999996,"endTime":369.447,"body":"that we add that's intended to reduce how often we see a given behaviour. So if you've got a"},{"startTime":369.447,"endTime":373.437,"body":"child who's shouting out on the carpet all the time and you give them a detention or keep them"},{"startTime":373.437,"endTime":378.44899999999996,"body":"in or there's some other form of consequence for that, the idea is by engaging in that extra"},{"startTime":378.44899999999996,"endTime":383.35299999999995,"body":"thing by giving them that punishment or giving them that negative feedback, giving them that"},{"startTime":383.35299999999995,"endTime":389.36699999999996,"body":"consequence, you see less of that behaviour in the future. Now that is different from negative"},{"startTime":389.37300000000005,"endTime":394.44100000000003,"body":"reinforcement. So negative reinforcement is something we remove that makes it more likely that"},{"startTime":394.44100000000003,"endTime":398.433,"body":"we see a behaviour. Now that sounds sort of counterintuitive. So I'll give you a quick example."},{"startTime":399.36299999999994,"endTime":403.38699999999994,"body":"Let's imagine you've got a child who keeps on doing badly with their homework and they they're failing"},{"startTime":403.38699999999994,"endTime":408.413,"body":"to have their homework in day after day after day after day. And all the adults around them"},{"startTime":408.43499999999995,"endTime":414.443,"body":"are continually moaning and complaining at the child. The student gives in their homework, and"},{"startTime":414.443,"endTime":422.385,"body":"then suddenly, everyone stops moaning. Right? So now there's quiet. And that quiet, that removal"},{"startTime":422.385,"endTime":427.414,"body":"of the moaning now makes it more likely that the child hands in their homework in future. It"},{"startTime":427.414,"endTime":433.374,"body":"increases how often they hand in their homework. So negative reinforcement is when we want to"},{"startTime":433.374,"endTime":440.429,"body":"increase a behaviour by removing something. So negative reinforcement is something we remove"},{"startTime":440.429,"endTime":445.385,"body":"that increases how likely it is we are to see a behaviour, but punishment is something that reduces"},{"startTime":446.379,"endTime":451.375,"body":"how likely we are to see a behaviour. So let's imagine a situation where we've got a rat in a"},{"startTime":451.375,"endTime":458.39099999999996,"body":"cage, and the floor of the cage has like a like a metal grill on it. And on the wall of the"},{"startTime":458.39099999999996,"endTime":463.43899999999996,"body":"cage, there's a button. The rat goes across and it presses the button on the wall of the cage,"},{"startTime":464.369,"endTime":471.35299999999995,"body":"and the floor gets electrocuted. The rat learns very quickly not to press the button. That's"},{"startTime":471.43399999999997,"endTime":476.413,"body":"a punishment because it's gonna reduce the number of times that the rat presses the button."},{"startTime":476.413,"endTime":478.428,"body":"He's less likely to press the button in the future."},{"startTime":478.44399999999996,"endTime":483.43999999999994,"body":"Yeah. I get the thing about the rat, and this is a really fake situation and a very high level"},{"startTime":483.43999999999994,"endTime":489.44899999999996,"body":"of punishment. In the real world, now that corporate punishment in this country has been banned,"},{"startTime":490.394,"endTime":496.41200000000003,"body":"the consequences are not going to be that severe. But if you think about it, all animals, including"},{"startTime":497.35900000000004,"endTime":505.369,"body":"humans, will intuitively seek to avoid physical pain. So for example, if you wanted to stop"},{"startTime":505.369,"endTime":511.40599999999995,"body":"somebody shouting out in class and you cattle prodded them every time they did it, they would"},{"startTime":511.40599999999995,"endTime":518.434,"body":"stop shouting out. But, obviously, that's not humane because it leads to negative health outcomes"},{"startTime":519.388,"endTime":525.434,"body":"and tends to lead to more violent behavior from the child in the future. In fact, interestingly,"},{"startTime":526.353,"endTime":533.351,"body":"studies have shown that witnessing parental violence in the preschool years predicted externalizing"},{"startTime":533.413,"endTime":541.409,"body":"problems in boys at the age of 16. So those boys who'd witnessed their parents in violent situations"},{"startTime":541.423,"endTime":548.39,"body":"were increasingly likely to have angry outbursts or be aggressive towards other people. And"},{"startTime":548.39,"endTime":554.352,"body":"actually for girls in the same early years situation, that predicted internalizing problems."},{"startTime":554.358,"endTime":559.414,"body":"So the way that that might show up for girls at around the age of 16 might be things like depression,"},{"startTime":560.3679999999999,"endTime":562.352,"body":"social withdrawal, anxiety."},{"startTime":562.424,"endTime":567.412,"body":"There was also a longitudinal study by Doctor Herren Cole from the National Institute of Justice"},{"startTime":567.412,"endTime":573.387,"body":"in the US. And a longitudinal study is where they take a group of people and study them over"},{"startTime":573.387,"endTime":578.447,"body":"years years years. They track them throughout their lives. So this study tracked 450 kids into"},{"startTime":578.447,"endTime":584.436,"body":"adulthood, and they found that abusive parenting was linked to criminal involvement later in"},{"startTime":584.436,"endTime":591.432,"body":"life. Doctor Herringkoll's study also found evidence of a cycle of violence. So that meant that"},{"startTime":591.432,"endTime":596.358,"body":"because those children were victims of violence in childhood, they were then much more likely"},{"startTime":596.396,"endTime":602.4300000000001,"body":"to perpetrate similar violence towards their peers or partners when they got older. I think"},{"startTime":602.4300000000001,"endTime":606.398,"body":"it's really interesting as well that when we think about punishment for adults, often we think"},{"startTime":606.398,"endTime":613.3530000000001,"body":"about prison. But when you look at the prison population, one of the problems is you see the"},{"startTime":613.3530000000001,"endTime":618.403,"body":"same repeat offenders going to prison over and over and over. Prisoner hasn't dealt with the"},{"startTime":618.403,"endTime":623.361,"body":"underlying causes causing the person to offend in the first place."},{"startTime":623.375,"endTime":628.448,"body":"Yeah. So in a school based level then, we imagine the child shouts out in class. They're not"},{"startTime":628.448,"endTime":635.421,"body":"going to be physically beaten, which is obviously a good thing. So instead, the punishment that"},{"startTime":635.421,"endTime":637.4390000000001,"body":"they're often given is a detention."},{"startTime":638.3770000000001,"endTime":642.4490000000001,"body":"So I want to introduce a concept called the hedonistic treadmill from psychology and social"},{"startTime":642.4490000000001,"endTime":650.362,"body":"psychology. Hedonistic treadmill is usually thought of in a positive way. It's the way we become"},{"startTime":650.376,"endTime":656.381,"body":"accustomed to new rewards. A classic example is the idea of pay increase. So let's imagine you"},{"startTime":656.381,"endTime":662.383,"body":"turn up to school and you suddenly find, as a teacher, you've been given a £500 pay rise. And"},{"startTime":662.383,"endTime":666.441,"body":"to start with, that's really exciting. It's really motivating. You're thinking, wow. Someone's"},{"startTime":667.395,"endTime":672.3870000000001,"body":"finally recognized my talents and my skills, and they've awarded me this surprise pay rise."},{"startTime":672.393,"endTime":676.409,"body":"And when you open your pay packet at the end of the month, you see the extra £500, and that's"},{"startTime":676.409,"endTime":683.4150000000001,"body":"exciting, and you feel valued by your employer. Then next month, you see that £500, and it still"},{"startTime":683.4150000000001,"endTime":690.357,"body":"gives you a bit of a buzz, a bit of excitement. But 4, 5, 6 months down the line, it just becomes"},{"startTime":690.363,"endTime":694.443,"body":"part of what you expect from life. It becomes part of what you expect to see in your pay packet,"},{"startTime":694.443,"endTime":700.436,"body":"and it stops having that boost, that emotional boost you feel when you see it. And this is the"},{"startTime":700.436,"endTime":705.437,"body":"idea of the hedonistic treadmill. We become accustomed to rewards. So we're on this treadmill."},{"startTime":705.437,"endTime":711.365,"body":"We get one reward that's really, really exciting. But to continue with that buzz, that excitement,"},{"startTime":711.365,"endTime":715.434,"body":"that feeling of motivation and moving forwards, you have to keep running and running and running"},{"startTime":715.434,"endTime":720.374,"body":"on this treadmill to get more and more and more and more and more. And, actually, we're not"},{"startTime":720.374,"endTime":725.3960000000001,"body":"going anywhere. We're just becoming accustomed to and acclimatized to the positive change. Once"},{"startTime":725.3960000000001,"endTime":730.4350000000001,"body":"we absorb that into our general outlook on the world and how we feel about things, then we move"},{"startTime":730.4350000000001,"endTime":737.4490000000001,"body":"on to the next dopamine fix. But it can apply in the opposite direction to negative inputs as well."},{"startTime":738.389,"endTime":743.419,"body":"Yeah. Just listening to what you were saying there, I bet everybody can identify with children"},{"startTime":743.4250000000001,"endTime":748.436,"body":"where they've put positive reinforcements and rewards in place, maybe like a sticker chart or"},{"startTime":748.436,"endTime":754.356,"body":"something like that. And for the first two days, the child's been working their socks off to get"},{"startTime":754.356,"endTime":758.4250000000001,"body":"their stickers, and they've been trying really, really hard. And everyone thinks, yes, we've"},{"startTime":758.4250000000001,"endTime":764.409,"body":"cracked it. The sticker chart's working. And then on day 3, it's not working so much. And then"},{"startTime":764.409,"endTime":769.3530000000001,"body":"on day 4, it's not working at all. And then by the end of the week, the child doesn't give two"},{"startTime":769.3530000000001,"endTime":774.389,"body":"hoots about getting a sticker, and everybody gets demoralized. So, yeah, we do get accustomed"},{"startTime":774.389,"endTime":778.423,"body":"to it. You you kind of think, yeah, sticker's great. And then once you've had loads of stickers,"},{"startTime":778.445,"endTime":780.383,"body":"it's not that great anymore."},{"startTime":780.405,"endTime":784.399,"body":"And then you see that thing in school, don't you, where you get sticker inflation or house point"},{"startTime":784.399,"endTime":788.4150000000001,"body":"inflation, whereas the teacher in the past could get away with giving one sticker or one house"},{"startTime":788.4150000000001,"endTime":793.368,"body":"point to enthuse the kids. Now they're giving away 2 stickers or 2 house points and then 3 stickers"},{"startTime":793.368,"endTime":797.352,"body":"and 3 house points to have the same effect because you're trying to overcome this treadmill effect."},{"startTime":797.368,"endTime":801.402,"body":"And it just devalues the point or the sticker, doesn't it? It makes it not that worthwhile."},{"startTime":801.448,"endTime":807.39,"body":"But, yeah, it it also goes the other way. So it can apply in the opposite direction to negative"},{"startTime":807.404,"endTime":813.39,"body":"input. So let's go back to our child in class who's shouting out. They get a detention. And"},{"startTime":813.423,"endTime":818.395,"body":"maybe the first time they get that detention, they're quite upset about it, like when I got"},{"startTime":818.395,"endTime":823.3720000000001,"body":"sent to the head for flicking the pea. You know, I was really, really upset about that. That was"},{"startTime":823.3720000000001,"endTime":824.402,"body":"a big deal for me."},{"startTime":824.408,"endTime":826.354,"body":"Move on, Emma. Move on."},{"startTime":826.36,"endTime":832.438,"body":"Well, had I been sent to the head every day for flicking a pea or some other misdemeanor, it"},{"startTime":832.438,"endTime":837.442,"body":"probably wouldn't have been very enjoyable. But, actually, over time, you just get accustomed"},{"startTime":837.442,"endTime":842.35,"body":"to it. You just get used to it, and you kind of think, okay. I've been to the head before. I've"},{"startTime":842.35,"endTime":846.4490000000001,"body":"lived through it. It's not that great, but it's not that awful. So, you know, it doesn't matter"},{"startTime":846.4490000000001,"endTime":852.393,"body":"if I get sent there again. I don't care about that. So the child who's shouting out in class,"},{"startTime":852.393,"endTime":857.365,"body":"they get a detention and then another detention and another, and they just get kind of used"},{"startTime":857.365,"endTime":862.4350000000001,"body":"to it. And then it just gets kind of built in as an accepted part of their week. They kind of"},{"startTime":862.4350000000001,"endTime":867.385,"body":"elongate their timetable and recognize that 2 or 3 days a week, they're gonna be in detention."},{"startTime":867.394,"endTime":872.4300000000001,"body":"So what? It just doesn't mean anything, and they've adapted to it. And then they're getting"},{"startTime":872.4300000000001,"endTime":878.447,"body":"so many punishments that school's got nowhere to go. So it's that age old thing where you, you"},{"startTime":878.447,"endTime":884.351,"body":"know, you tell a child that they have to stay in for a minute at at lunchtime or 5 minutes at"},{"startTime":884.351,"endTime":888.431,"body":"lunchtime or 10 minutes or lose their whole lunchtime or lose their whole lunchtime for the"},{"startTime":888.431,"endTime":893.4150000000001,"body":"week or their whole lunchtime for the term. I'm sure nobody's doing that. But you get the picture."},{"startTime":894.369,"endTime":900.3770000000001,"body":"There's only so far you can go with those punishments, and, actually, they are not changing"},{"startTime":900.3770000000001,"endTime":902.443,"body":"the child's behaviour. They're not making a difference."},{"startTime":903.365,"endTime":907.421,"body":"Reminds me of a story of a child that I met once who had ADHD in a secondary school, and he"},{"startTime":907.421,"endTime":911.4350000000001,"body":"found it very difficult to sit still and he would often shout out in class and stuff like that."},{"startTime":911.4350000000001,"endTime":917.405,"body":"And he would find himself in detention, and the rule in detention was you had to sit still."},{"startTime":918.361,"endTime":922.4110000000001,"body":"Otherwise, you had another detention to kind of make up for the one that you didn't do perfectly."},{"startTime":922.4250000000001,"endTime":929.429,"body":"So this child, right, you had ADHD, h for hyperactive. He literally couldn't sit still. He would"},{"startTime":929.429,"endTime":934.446,"body":"go to detention, squirm around a lot, find himself in another detention. In that detention,"},{"startTime":934.446,"endTime":938.438,"body":"he still couldn't sit still, would have to squirm around a lot, would find himself in another"},{"startTime":938.438,"endTime":942.443,"body":"detention, and so on. He just now just assumed he would be in detention day after day after"},{"startTime":942.443,"endTime":947.433,"body":"day. And at that point, what does he got to lose? It stopped having an impact on him. Equally,"},{"startTime":948.356,"endTime":953.3770000000001,"body":"he's in a cycle where he can't escape the detentions. So you start to get a situation that looks"},{"startTime":953.3770000000001,"endTime":958.429,"body":"a bit like learned helplessness, which is where someone believes that they can't change the"},{"startTime":958.429,"endTime":962.438,"body":"situation they're in. So they don't even bother trying even if the opportunity for a better"},{"startTime":962.438,"endTime":967.378,"body":"situation presents itself. There's some research done by, professor Martin Seligman, who was"},{"startTime":967.378,"endTime":972.357,"body":"the father of positive psychology, But he identified 3 key features that are interesting, that"},{"startTime":972.357,"endTime":977.417,"body":"are associated with this feeling of learned helplessness. And they were, number 1, the child"},{"startTime":977.417,"endTime":983.407,"body":"becomes very passive and of accepts that situation. 2, they have difficulty learning how to"},{"startTime":983.407,"endTime":988.398,"body":"find their way out of that difficult situation, the series of punishments or detentions. And,"},{"startTime":988.398,"endTime":992.44,"body":"ultimately, you get an increase in their stress chemicals, their cortisol, and their adrenaline."},{"startTime":993.386,"endTime":997.388,"body":"And over time, that can actually lead to anxiety or depression."},{"startTime":997.421,"endTime":1004.417,"body":"Yeah. So punishment assumes that you're engaging in a chosen behaviour. So your ADHD example"},{"startTime":1004.417,"endTime":1013.355,"body":"is perfect there. That person with ADHD is going to find it incredibly difficult to sit still."},{"startTime":1013.366,"endTime":1018.3770000000001,"body":"So they're actually being punished for something that they've got very little control over."},{"startTime":1018.3770000000001,"endTime":1024.44,"body":"It's an unreasonable expectation. We all engage in different types of behaviour, and and it's"},{"startTime":1024.44,"endTime":1029.3799999999999,"body":"important when we're thinking about how to change behaviour that we choose the right method for"},{"startTime":1029.3799999999999,"endTime":1036.435,"body":"that. So there's a difference between chosen behaviours, things that we actively decide to do,"},{"startTime":1037.402,"endTime":1042.422,"body":"automatic behaviours, things that we're just doing without really thinking about it, and then"},{"startTime":1042.422,"endTime":1047.423,"body":"emotionally driven behaviours. And those are the sorts of behaviours that you see when a child"},{"startTime":1047.423,"endTime":1054.424,"body":"is dysregulated. And we all know that when a child's dysregulated, their logical thinking rational"},{"startTime":1055.386,"endTime":1062.4289999999999,"body":"brain isn't driving the process. They're fueled purely by emotion, so there's not much logic"},{"startTime":1062.4289999999999,"endTime":1068.414,"body":"and sense there. And it's really unfortunate, I think, when children are punished for behaviours"},{"startTime":1068.421,"endTime":1075.356,"body":"that they are exhibiting when they are dysregulated. Of course, those behaviours might be unwanted"},{"startTime":1075.386,"endTime":1082.353,"body":"and unsavory, but sometimes in that moment, well, definitely when they're dysregulated, the"},{"startTime":1082.353,"endTime":1089.383,"body":"child has very little control over what they are saying or doing. So to punish them for behaving"},{"startTime":1089.389,"endTime":1093.411,"body":"in that way, when you think about it logically, is really a bit daft."},{"startTime":1093.411,"endTime":1097.421,"body":"Punishment tends to be more effective for people when they're making sort of those deliberate"},{"startTime":1097.435,"endTime":1103.439,"body":"chosen decisions in a calm state. If you're highly stressed or emotionally charged, your emotions"},{"startTime":1103.445,"endTime":1108.394,"body":"just start making those decisions for you. And they're governed by a part of your brain the"},{"startTime":1108.394,"endTime":1112.442,"body":"amygdala that doesn't really care about consequences. It lives in the now. It doesn't"},{"startTime":1112.442,"endTime":1118.3819999999998,"body":"care about tomorrow. It just cares about how things feel right now. So we're not saying take"},{"startTime":1118.3819999999998,"endTime":1123.388,"body":"boundaries and consequences away because a lot of people spend most of their life in a calm,"},{"startTime":1123.4019999999998,"endTime":1128.36,"body":"reasoned state, and it it helps people understand what behaviours are acceptable and not acceptable"},{"startTime":1128.36,"endTime":1133.3719999999998,"body":"in school. But what we're looking at here is children that are receiving punishment after punishment"},{"startTime":1133.3719999999998,"endTime":1138.386,"body":"after punishment, and it's not reducing how often we're seeing those negative behaviours. And"},{"startTime":1138.386,"endTime":1143.447,"body":"if they're in an emotional state, then the likelihood is it's not going to reduce those behaviours"},{"startTime":1143.447,"endTime":1147.415,"body":"in the future. So it's the right tool at the right time, really. That's what we're saying here, isn't it?"},{"startTime":1147.415,"endTime":1152.425,"body":"Yeah. And I think it gets very frustrating for adults, And there's an ongoing debate whether,"},{"startTime":1153.3629999999998,"endTime":1158.3799999999999,"body":"you know, if it's a child with ADHD, for example, it's trying to unpick whether the behaviour"},{"startTime":1158.3799999999999,"endTime":1165.3519999999999,"body":"was a consequence of their ADHD or whether it was chosen. And sometimes children with ADHD will"},{"startTime":1165.3519999999999,"endTime":1170.365,"body":"make poor behaviour choices because that's normal. Every child does that sometimes, and it and"},{"startTime":1170.365,"endTime":1177.366,"body":"it can be difficult to unpick. And sometimes adults get very hung up on saying, yes. Yes. Well,"},{"startTime":1177.366,"endTime":1181.406,"body":"I know they've got ADHD, but they're doing it on purpose or they're doing it deliberately. And"},{"startTime":1181.406,"endTime":1188.37,"body":"and sometimes they might be, but even chosen behaviours are happening for a reason, and it's"},{"startTime":1188.37,"endTime":1194.36,"body":"more valuable to unpick what that reason might be and what's driving that behaviour rather than"},{"startTime":1194.36,"endTime":1198.4479999999999,"body":"keep putting in punishments that are not working. If you're in a punishment cycle where you're"},{"startTime":1198.4479999999999,"endTime":1203.4209999999998,"body":"putting in a punishment, the child's behaviour isn't changing, you're putting the punishment"},{"startTime":1203.427,"endTime":1208.385,"body":"in again, the child's behaviour isn't changing again, all that's happening is we're increasing"},{"startTime":1209.437,"endTime":1212.355,"body":"resentment and eroding that relationship."},{"startTime":1212.377,"endTime":1216.4209999999998,"body":"Yeah. If punishments don't work fairly quickly, they they tend to be fairly ineffective. And"},{"startTime":1216.4209999999998,"endTime":1222.3829999999998,"body":"the other issue we need to think about here is a punishment is only an effective punishment,"},{"startTime":1222.397,"endTime":1230.3719999999998,"body":"so it's gonna reduce how often we see that negative behaviour over time if the child cares about"},{"startTime":1230.3719999999998,"endTime":1234.407,"body":"the punishment, if they're bothered by it. I remember talking to a pupil once. We were talking"},{"startTime":1234.407,"endTime":1238.3509999999999,"body":"about his behaviour, and I was saying something along the lines of, you know, you're gonna be"},{"startTime":1238.3509999999999,"endTime":1241.395,"body":"kept in 4 or 5 minutes at dinner time, and we'll talk about your behaviour, this, that, and the"},{"startTime":1241.395,"endTime":1246.416,"body":"other. And he was like, I'm happy to stop in at dinner time. I hate it out there. It's noisy,"},{"startTime":1246.416,"endTime":1252.435,"body":"and it's busy. I argue with my friends. I'm happier in here. For him, what I consider to be"},{"startTime":1252.435,"endTime":1257.4009999999998,"body":"a consequence was actually like a positive reward. It was acting as a positive reinforcement,"},{"startTime":1257.4399999999998,"endTime":1261.4399999999998,"body":"probably increasing the amount of times I was gonna see those behaviours in the classroom. And"},{"startTime":1261.4399999999998,"endTime":1266.4279999999999,"body":"on a more serious note, if you've got a child, say, who experiences high levels of abuse at"},{"startTime":1266.4279999999999,"endTime":1274.3529999999998,"body":"home, being in detention after school, several nights a week might actually be preferable than"},{"startTime":1274.3529999999998,"endTime":1280.359,"body":"being at home. If a child's got low resilience in maths, say, and shouting out results in being"},{"startTime":1280.3729999999998,"endTime":1285.405,"body":"sent out of maths, then the punishment may be preferable to being in maths. And the same is"},{"startTime":1285.405,"endTime":1291.405,"body":"often true for children who have anxiety. Let's say they're anxious about going into a busy"},{"startTime":1291.405,"endTime":1297.4189999999999,"body":"social environment, maybe into, say, like, a busy drama classroom. They might prefer not to"},{"startTime":1297.4189999999999,"endTime":1303.388,"body":"be in that classroom in the first place and be sent out than joining in. A parent may offer"},{"startTime":1303.388,"endTime":1308.3519999999999,"body":"a consequence to that child who's anxious about going into school, say, by threatening to take"},{"startTime":1308.3519999999999,"endTime":1312.4289999999999,"body":"away their pocket money. But for that child who's got emotionally based school avoidance, who"},{"startTime":1312.4289999999999,"endTime":1317.4489999999998,"body":"actively is worrying and fearing about going into school, the loss of that pocket money may"},{"startTime":1317.4489999999998,"endTime":1320.358,"body":"be preferable to facing their demons."},{"startTime":1320.403,"endTime":1326.4279999999999,"body":"Absolutely. So to wrap it up then today, if solving complex behaviour problems were as simple"},{"startTime":1326.4279999999999,"endTime":1334.405,"body":"as punishments, this podcast would have finished about a 195 episodes ago. We would have called"},{"startTime":1334.405,"endTime":1340.397,"body":"episode 1 the punishment episode, dropped the mic, and then canceled the podcast there and then"},{"startTime":1340.397,"endTime":1342.4289999999999,"body":"because there was simply nothing else to say."},{"startTime":1342.4289999999999,"endTime":1348.408,"body":"Consequences and punishment do have a role in maintaining boundaries, and that tends to work"},{"startTime":1348.408,"endTime":1353.3899999999999,"body":"more at a group level. And remember here, we're talking about situations where those punishments"},{"startTime":1353.396,"endTime":1356.413,"body":"aren't working. It's the old Henry Ford quote, isn't it? If you do what you've always done,"},{"startTime":1356.413,"endTime":1360.4209999999998,"body":"you're gonna get what you've always got. And if they they haven't worked fairly quickly, then"},{"startTime":1360.4209999999998,"endTime":1364.365,"body":"they're for a child, then they're unlikely to work in the future."},{"startTime":1364.3709999999999,"endTime":1370.4109999999998,"body":"Yeah. And if you're solely relying on punishment to change the behaviour of an individual and"},{"startTime":1370.4109999999998,"endTime":1377.3529999999998,"body":"that behaviour isn't changing, then it's time to switch things up. Look deeper at what the drivers"},{"startTime":1377.394,"endTime":1384.3519999999999,"body":"behind that behaviour might be. And we're always talking about this, trying to ask why, why,"},{"startTime":1384.3519999999999,"endTime":1390.446,"body":"why, why, why? What's the underlying issue? What's the root cause? And how can we skill up the"},{"startTime":1390.446,"endTime":1396.398,"body":"child to be able to cope and be able to manage in this situation rather than keep punishing"},{"startTime":1396.398,"endTime":1397.426,"body":"them for getting it wrong?"},{"startTime":1397.426,"endTime":1403.434,"body":"And, of course, you need to think about in those situations how you use positive reinforcement"},{"startTime":1404.396,"endTime":1410.416,"body":"to encourage the child to replace the old unhelpful behaviour with a more positive one. If it"},{"startTime":1410.416,"endTime":1416.3509999999999,"body":"was as easy as just punishing and reducing a behaviour out of existence, then what we haven't"},{"startTime":1416.3509999999999,"endTime":1422.4109999999998,"body":"actually done is explained what we want the child to actually do, to be successful in that situation,"},{"startTime":1422.4489999999998,"endTime":1426.388,"body":"and they might not have the social understanding or the emotional knowledge to be able to do"},{"startTime":1426.388,"endTime":1430.4119999999998,"body":"that, or they might not be able to do it without support. So usually, punishment by itself is"},{"startTime":1430.4119999999998,"endTime":1435.3619999999999,"body":"gonna be ineffective because it doesn't take a child from a before state where they're struggling"},{"startTime":1435.4099999999999,"endTime":1440.366,"body":"to cope in a certain situation to a positive state where they have all the information they"},{"startTime":1440.366,"endTime":1441.4119999999998,"body":"need to be successful."},{"startTime":1441.418,"endTime":1447.385,"body":"So that's it for today. If you are enjoying school behaviour secrets, don't forget to leave us"},{"startTime":1447.385,"endTime":1452.4199999999998,"body":"a review and recommend us to your friends. Thank you very much for listening. We hope you have"},{"startTime":1452.4199999999998,"endTime":1456.398,"body":"a great week and we'll see you next time. Bye now. Bye for now."}]}