{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":87.35,"endTime":93.43499999999999,"body":"Have you ever wondered why children with ADHD seem to struggle with tasks that other kids find simple?"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":93.43499999999999,"endTime":102.35499999999999,"body":"Well, it's because their brains are wired for immediate rewards, making certain activities feel physically uncomfortable for them."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":102.35499999999999,"endTime":112.407,"body":"In today's podcast, we shed light on the unique challenges faced by kids with ADHD and share valuable strategies for supporting them in the school environment."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":112.423,"endTime":118.40899999999999,"body":"If you're interested in understanding how to support a child with ADHD in your class, then keep listening."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":119.395,"endTime":124.359,"body":"Welcome to the School Behaviour Secrets podcast. I'm your host, Simon Currigan."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":124.36599999999999,"endTime":130.432,"body":"My co host is Emma Shackleton, and we're obsessed with helping teachers, school leaders, parents, and, of course, students"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":130.438,"endTime":133.43,"body":"when class room behaviour gets in the way of success."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":133.444,"endTime":140.36599999999999,"body":"We're gonna share the tried and tested secrets to classroom management, behavioural special needs, whole school strategy, and"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":140.36599999999999,"endTime":144.368,"body":"more, all with the aim of helping your students reach their true potential."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":144.35399999999998,"endTime":150.362,"body":"Plus, we'll be letting you eavesdrop on our conversations with thought leaders from around the world."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":150.362,"endTime":155.361,"body":"So you'll get to hear the latest evidence based strategies before anyone else."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":155.361,"endTime":159.387,"body":"This is the School Behaviour Secrets podcast. Hi there."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":159.387,"endTime":165.41899999999998,"body":"Simon Currigan here, and welcome to another essentials episode of School Behaviour Secrets where I share with you one important"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":165.41899999999998,"endTime":172.44299999999998,"body":"strategy or insight from an earlier episode that can have an impact for the students that you work with in your school or your classroom."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":172.44299999999998,"endTime":178.405,"body":"In this essentials episode, I'm gonna share a section of an interview I had with Jeff Copper."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":178.405,"endTime":184.386,"body":"Jeff is an ADHD coach, expert on attention issues, and founder of the DIG coaching practice."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":184.386,"endTime":189.35199999999998,"body":"We join Jeff midway through our interview where he explains how ADHD affects a child's executive functioning skills."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":192.368,"endTime":201.369,"body":"And if you find this episode interesting, please don't forget to subscribe and tell your friends and colleagues about the School Behaviour Secrets podcast."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":201.38,"endTime":204.432,"body":"And now, here's my interview with Jeff."},{"speaker":"Jeff Copper","startTime":204.445,"endTime":211.445,"body":"People with ADHD have a very reward driven brain. It's really dopamine related."},{"speaker":"Jeff Copper","startTime":211.445,"endTime":218.436,"body":"They want to feel good, and they want to feel good now. Not later, right now."},{"speaker":"Jeff Copper","startTime":218.436,"endTime":225.403,"body":"To the point in time, if they are in an activity that is somewhat boring, it's physically uncomfortable for them."},{"speaker":"Jeff Copper","startTime":225.403,"endTime":231.40099999999998,"body":"They'll do anything to escape it. Even if it's not something that they should do, it's it's good for them."},{"speaker":"Jeff Copper","startTime":231.40099999999998,"endTime":234.361,"body":"I like to talk about emotions as a reflexive reaction."},{"speaker":"Jeff Copper","startTime":234.386,"endTime":238.441,"body":"When you're threatened with your life, you go to fight, flight, or freeze, and you don't think."},{"speaker":"Jeff Copper","startTime":238.441,"endTime":244.37699999999998,"body":"And I'm emphasizing this because if you don't really acknowledge this, it's like going into the doctor's office when they"},{"speaker":"Jeff Copper","startTime":244.37699999999998,"endTime":251.35899999999998,"body":"hit your knee or when you're gonna fall, you instinctively reach for something to brace your fall. That's a reflexive instinct."},{"speaker":"Jeff Copper","startTime":251.35899999999998,"endTime":257.44399999999996,"body":"And for our audience, you gotta understand this because it happens so fast. It's very difficult to control."},{"speaker":"Jeff Copper","startTime":257.44399999999996,"endTime":259.438,"body":"So this ADHD crowd has a real difficulty."},{"speaker":"Jeff Copper","startTime":259.438,"endTime":263.44899999999996,"body":"They don't really have a lot of self awareness, which I'll come back to in a second."},{"speaker":"Jeff Copper","startTime":263.44899999999996,"endTime":269.387,"body":"And emotionally, they have this reflexive action to feel really good right now, and they have a hard time restraining themselves."},{"speaker":"Jeff Copper","startTime":269.387,"endTime":272.43899999999996,"body":"So I like to lump those 3 executive functions in one quadrant because that's the more primitive brain."},{"speaker":"Jeff Copper","startTime":272.43899999999996,"endTime":273.414,"body":"That's the one that advertisers prey on. Right?"},{"speaker":"Jeff Copper","startTime":277.419,"endTime":280.381,"body":"It's all about giving you pleasure, escaping pain."},{"speaker":"Jeff Copper","startTime":280.381,"endTime":287.36400000000003,"body":"The next 3 I like to lump together, that's the visual imagery, the self talk, and play with information towards a goal."},{"speaker":"Jeff Copper","startTime":287.36400000000003,"endTime":290.404,"body":"Loosely, when I gave you those 6 words, that's what you were doing."},{"speaker":"Jeff Copper","startTime":290.404,"endTime":293.39300000000003,"body":"You were playing with information in your mind towards a goal."},{"speaker":"Jeff Copper","startTime":293.40099999999995,"endTime":296.446,"body":"That is impaired for people with working memory. Let's simplify it."},{"speaker":"Jeff Copper","startTime":297.368,"endTime":305.374,"body":"Thinking inside your head is more difficult for people with ADHD than neurotypicals. We know it's more difficult."},{"speaker":"Jeff Copper","startTime":305.39599999999996,"endTime":310.384,"body":"If you take a look at all the tip tricks and strategies, it's all about externalizing thinking. Right?"},{"speaker":"Jeff Copper","startTime":310.384,"endTime":315.354,"body":"But I really wanna emphasize that thinking inside your head is a challenge for people with ADHD."},{"speaker":"Jeff Copper","startTime":315.41200000000003,"endTime":321.43399999999997,"body":"Now they are as smart as anybody else, but they need to think outside their head, not inside their head."},{"speaker":"Jeff Copper","startTime":321.43399999999997,"endTime":325.394,"body":"So let me pause here for a second. Just give you opportunity. Any questions so far? Is this making sense?"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":325.394,"endTime":331.407,"body":"This is making perfect sense. And in my head, I'm imagining if you have difficulties with any of these areas, if you're a"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":331.407,"endTime":338.384,"body":"child in class and you're being asked to work in silence, say, I'm already thinking, if that child needs to work outside the"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":338.384,"endTime":342.43399999999997,"body":"head where they need to write something down or talk something through, they're already gonna have difficulties."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":342.44,"endTime":346.352,"body":"So then the other part of their brain that's gonna light up is gonna say, I need to escape this pain."},{"speaker":"Jeff Copper","startTime":346.352,"endTime":349.414,"body":"Absolutely. Absolutely. Human beings, we make observations with our senses."},{"speaker":"Jeff Copper","startTime":349.414,"endTime":352.428,"body":"And so we have a tendency to watch visible behaviour."},{"speaker":"Jeff Copper","startTime":353.37800000000004,"endTime":357.40999999999997,"body":"Understand that visible behaviour is a symptom of cognitive behaviour."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":357.40999999999997,"endTime":359.40099999999995,"body":"Could you explain that a little bit, please?"},{"speaker":"Jeff Copper","startTime":359.40099999999995,"endTime":363.352,"body":"In the world, everything that we do, we make observations with our senses."},{"speaker":"Jeff Copper","startTime":363.352,"endTime":367.4,"body":"If it stimulates our senses, it's an observation. That's a tangible thing."},{"speaker":"Jeff Copper","startTime":367.4,"endTime":371.39599999999996,"body":"If it doesn't stimulate our senses, it's an intangible. K? Okay."},{"speaker":"Jeff Copper","startTime":371.39599999999996,"endTime":373.432,"body":"So light color, if you will, is tangible."},{"speaker":"Jeff Copper","startTime":373.432,"endTime":376.369,"body":"It's intangible to a person blind at birth."},{"speaker":"Jeff Copper","startTime":376.369,"endTime":377.41999999999996,"body":"They have no concept of what it is because they have no way of doing"},{"speaker":"Jeff Copper","startTime":380.41200000000003,"endTime":384.355,"body":"it. So everything we make observations are with our senses."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":384.355,"endTime":384.41700000000003,"body":"Sure."},{"speaker":"Jeff Copper","startTime":384.41700000000003,"endTime":392.41999999999996,"body":"So when you are looking at some kid that is not doing what you want them to do, you see that they're not doing that and you're quick"},{"speaker":"Jeff Copper","startTime":392.41999999999996,"endTime":395.422,"body":"to emotionally say that person has a focus problem. Okay?"},{"speaker":"Jeff Copper","startTime":395.422,"endTime":401.403,"body":"Understand you're watching visible behavior and you're making an observation on that behaviour. What's driving this cognitive behaviour? That's intangible."},{"speaker":"Jeff Copper","startTime":401.403,"endTime":404.39599999999996,"body":"Can't see it, which is one of the things that I do."},{"speaker":"Jeff Copper","startTime":404.39599999999996,"endTime":410.36199999999997,"body":"I gave you an opportunity to repeat 6 words back to me so I could put you in an experience."},{"speaker":"Jeff Copper","startTime":410.36199999999997,"endTime":415.375,"body":"You still can't see it, but you have a concept of what I'm talking about. Makes sense? Yep. Yep."},{"speaker":"Jeff Copper","startTime":415.375,"endTime":422.352,"body":"So if we begin to understand what cognitive behaviour is and we begin to pay attention to that, we can actually begin to look"},{"speaker":"Jeff Copper","startTime":422.352,"endTime":427.37199999999996,"body":"at what the root cause of a problem is and problem solve for it. Let's just talk about some examples."},{"speaker":"Jeff Copper","startTime":427.37199999999996,"endTime":432.419,"body":"When I gave you those 6 words, I asked you not to write them down because that would have been easy."},{"speaker":"Jeff Copper","startTime":432.419,"endTime":434.442,"body":"I also asked you not to repeat them."},{"speaker":"Jeff Copper","startTime":434.442,"endTime":438.35,"body":"The reason for that is play is very important for children."},{"speaker":"Jeff Copper","startTime":438.35,"endTime":442.37,"body":"That's where they actually practice and develop executive functioning. It's about planning and building stuff."},{"speaker":"Jeff Copper","startTime":442.37,"endTime":446.39300000000003,"body":"Like, imagine you got a 3 year old in a room that's building something. Okay?"},{"speaker":"Jeff Copper","startTime":446.39300000000003,"endTime":451.361,"body":"And you and I outside the door just kinda eavesdropping, but the kid is in there."},{"speaker":"Jeff Copper","startTime":451.361,"endTime":457.423,"body":"It doesn't always happen, but it's not uncommon for that child to be talking out loud to themselves about what they're doing."},{"speaker":"Jeff Copper","startTime":457.423,"endTime":460.39099999999996,"body":"They're not talking to you and me. They're talking to themselves."},{"speaker":"Jeff Copper","startTime":460.39099999999996,"endTime":464.356,"body":"And there's reason they're saying it out loud is their working memory is impaired."},{"speaker":"Jeff Copper","startTime":464.356,"endTime":467.35900000000004,"body":"So by saying it is making it tangible. That's developmentally normal."},{"speaker":"Jeff Copper","startTime":467.35900000000004,"endTime":473.448,"body":"Somewhere between age 35, that public conversation moves inside their head. It's still going on. It's called self talk."},{"speaker":"Jeff Copper","startTime":473.448,"endTime":477.38300000000004,"body":"Well, people with ADHD are not everybody. They struggle with that."},{"speaker":"Jeff Copper","startTime":477.38300000000004,"endTime":483.404,"body":"So they talk a lot and they and actually told they talk too much and they begin to suppress it."},{"speaker":"Jeff Copper","startTime":483.404,"endTime":491.36,"body":"Well, if you don't understand it from executive functioning, they're actually talking out loud, and to tell them not to talk is basically saying not to think."},{"speaker":"Jeff Copper","startTime":491.36,"endTime":497.36199999999997,"body":"You begin to understand that they're, you know, they're talking out loud, and I coach a lot of people who they're not aware of it. They talk a lot."},{"speaker":"Jeff Copper","startTime":497.36199999999997,"endTime":499.352,"body":"I'm like, did you notice that you're talking out loud?"},{"speaker":"Jeff Copper","startTime":499.352,"endTime":503.413,"body":"And it's funny because I've done it with CEOs before where I pointed out in the very first call, and, like, you know, 4 minutes"},{"speaker":"Jeff Copper","startTime":503.413,"endTime":505.42600000000004,"body":"later, they go, well, let me talk out loud for a second."},{"speaker":"Jeff Copper","startTime":505.42600000000004,"endTime":508.35699999999997,"body":"They go, and so did you see what you did? Like, what?"},{"speaker":"Jeff Copper","startTime":508.35699999999997,"endTime":511.376,"body":"They don't even know that they act like, you say I'm talking out loud."},{"speaker":"Jeff Copper","startTime":511.376,"endTime":514.4399999999999,"body":"They have that self awareness of what they're doing, and now they're starting to manage it with intent."},{"speaker":"Jeff Copper","startTime":515.359,"endTime":522.428,"body":"But if we don't understand executive behaviour and somebody talks a lot, we're apt to say you're talking too much. Go off and do your wrong."},{"speaker":"Jeff Copper","startTime":522.428,"endTime":527.433,"body":"And that's the worst thing that you can do because you're basically saying, I want you to go think without the ability to think. Makes sense? Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely."},{"speaker":"Jeff Copper","startTime":530.358,"endTime":535.387,"body":"So one of the things that I talk about a lot is somebody with ADHD has gotta think about something."},{"speaker":"Jeff Copper","startTime":535.445,"endTime":538.409,"body":"There's 2 big things that run into the way."},{"speaker":"Jeff Copper","startTime":538.409,"endTime":545.433,"body":"If there's ambiguity and they don't really know what to do or if they're trying to do too much with their working memory,"},{"speaker":"Jeff Copper","startTime":545.433,"endTime":551.409,"body":"they got all the pieces, they can't put it all together to see it. It is physically uncomfortable for them."},{"speaker":"Jeff Copper","startTime":551.409,"endTime":555.373,"body":"It is too much mental effort, and all they wanna do is escape."},{"speaker":"Jeff Copper","startTime":555.373,"endTime":560.428,"body":"Now when I gave you those six words, you said I'm nervous. That was a reflexive emotional reaction."},{"speaker":"Jeff Copper","startTime":560.428,"endTime":565.418,"body":"So when they have too much going on, they have an emotional reaction to escape."},{"speaker":"Jeff Copper","startTime":565.418,"endTime":572.435,"body":"They wanna feel good right now, and they'll go to video games or social media or whatever. It looks like a focus issue."},{"speaker":"Jeff Copper","startTime":572.435,"endTime":576.4,"body":"To sit there and say, just try harder is absolutely crazy."},{"speaker":"Jeff Copper","startTime":576.4,"endTime":583.391,"body":"The issue is you gotta make thinking easier because that's what the root cause of the problem is."},{"speaker":"Jeff Copper","startTime":583.391,"endTime":590.397,"body":"And I'm harping on this particularly with your crowd, because everybody wants a tip, trick, or strategy to deal with the symptomatic problems."},{"speaker":"Jeff Copper","startTime":590.397,"endTime":592.397,"body":"And if you notice, it doesn't work."},{"speaker":"Jeff Copper","startTime":592.397,"endTime":596.351,"body":"Most of the times, it doesn't work because you're not dealing with the fundamental."},{"speaker":"Jeff Copper","startTime":596.351,"endTime":598.379,"body":"And that's why it's so important to understand that."},{"speaker":"Jeff Copper","startTime":598.379,"endTime":605.369,"body":"And that's why I think doctor Barclay's model is the most brilliant thing that ever come along with ADHD because in anything,"},{"speaker":"Jeff Copper","startTime":605.369,"endTime":612.388,"body":"whether it's physics, we have Newton's laws of motion. With electricity, we have Maxwell's equations. With evolution, we have Darwin's theory."},{"speaker":"Jeff Copper","startTime":612.388,"endTime":620.392,"body":"You have to have some fundamental theory that explains it with repeatable observable patterns that make some sense, and that's why I like doctor Barclay's model."},{"speaker":"Jeff Copper","startTime":620.392,"endTime":627.393,"body":"And the fact that he defined it with such precision, we can determine what is and what is not an executive function."},{"speaker":"Jeff Copper","startTime":627.393,"endTime":641.369,"body":"Now we can begin to sit down and look at behavior and look at it through the lens of executive functioning and begin to understand compensatory strategy to make up"},{"speaker":"Jeff Copper","startTime":644.376,"endTime":648.354,"body":"for their working memory challenge. So I'm gonna pause and see if you have any questions or comment."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":648.354,"endTime":649.441,"body":"No. This is making absolute sense."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":649.441,"endTime":655.434,"body":"Let's bring it back to the child again, and we're asking them the class to work in silence, say. We've taken away that crutch."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":655.434,"endTime":662.38,"body":"What I find really interesting then, and I've seen this personally over and over and over because in our role, we go into lots of classrooms."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":662.38,"endTime":666.3910000000001,"body":"What I find really interesting then is this idea of this is actually causing me more pain."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":666.3910000000001,"endTime":669.4060000000001,"body":"You've taken away the thing that I need. You've taken away this crutch."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":669.4060000000001,"endTime":675.357,"body":"And now instead of encouraging me to work quietly, what you've done is put me under more pain. Yes."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":675.357,"endTime":679.392,"body":"And I've got this natural propensity to move away from pain as quickly as possible."},{"speaker":"Jeff Copper","startTime":679.392,"endTime":681.399,"body":"Absolutely. Yes. That's the cause and the effect."},{"speaker":"Jeff Copper","startTime":681.399,"endTime":683.379,"body":"And this is a very complicated thing."},{"speaker":"Jeff Copper","startTime":683.379,"endTime":687.3670000000001,"body":"And so if you understand the impact because it's really all about problem solving."},{"speaker":"Jeff Copper","startTime":687.3670000000001,"endTime":690.384,"body":"And I like this and we're talking to teachers. Right? Yeah. Yeah."},{"speaker":"Jeff Copper","startTime":690.384,"endTime":694.356,"body":"You know, the way I like to describe this is, you know, I hated word problems."},{"speaker":"Jeff Copper","startTime":694.356,"endTime":696.365,"body":"I don't know about you, but I hated it."},{"speaker":"Jeff Copper","startTime":696.365,"endTime":699.351,"body":"Because what you have to do is like, just give me the equation."},{"speaker":"Jeff Copper","startTime":699.351,"endTime":702.418,"body":"I but if you think about it, word problems is you gotta read a bunch of information."},{"speaker":"Jeff Copper","startTime":702.418,"endTime":704.422,"body":"You gotta determine what the relevant and irrelevant variables are."},{"speaker":"Jeff Copper","startTime":704.422,"endTime":708.441,"body":"Then you have to take variables and you have to align them in a way that you can solve the problem."},{"speaker":"Jeff Copper","startTime":708.441,"endTime":710.399,"body":"In short, you have to derive the equation."},{"speaker":"Jeff Copper","startTime":710.399,"endTime":712.417,"body":"And when it comes to ADHD, everybody just wants the equation."},{"speaker":"Jeff Copper","startTime":712.417,"endTime":716.375,"body":"I'm like, well, you it doesn't work like that because there's different situational variables."},{"speaker":"Jeff Copper","startTime":716.375,"endTime":723.4150000000001,"body":"And you have a hard time really deriving the equation if you don't really understand executive functioning because you don't know what the variables are."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":723.4150000000001,"endTime":727.357,"body":"And every child with ADHD is an individual. Yeah? They're not all the same."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":727.357,"endTime":730.423,"body":"They don't just come off a production line looking exactly the same like a cookie cutter shape."},{"speaker":"Jeff Copper","startTime":730.423,"endTime":733.3720000000001,"body":"Absolutely."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":733.3720000000001,"endTime":739.431,"body":"And that was just a very small part of the interview I had with Jeff Copper back in 2022."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":739.431,"endTime":743.417,"body":"If you wanna hear more, head back to episodes 60 and 61."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":743.417,"endTime":752.351,"body":"Jeff shared so much good advice around adopting the right mindset and strategies for supporting kids with ADHD that we actually"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":752.351,"endTime":754.445,"body":"ran his interview across 2 podcast episodes."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":754.445,"endTime":760.436,"body":"I'll put direct links to both and signpost you to Jeff's online resources in the episode description."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":760.436,"endTime":767.383,"body":"If you found today's episode helpful, please do take a moment to rate and review us. It takes just 30 seconds."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":767.383,"endTime":772.404,"body":"And when you do, it prompts the algorithm to recommend school behavior secrets to other listeners."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":772.404,"endTime":778.419,"body":"So let's spread the word and help this podcast grow reaching fellow teachers, school leaders, and parents across the globe."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":778.419,"endTime":783.378,"body":"Thanks for tuning in, and I look forward to seeing you next time on School Behaviour"},{"speaker":"Jeff Copper","startTime":787.438,"endTime":788.388,"body":"Secrets."}]}