{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":87.58999999999999,"endTime":93.58999999999999,"body":"Working with students who you find are impulsive or find it hard to focus their attention, and"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":93.58999999999999,"endTime":99.485,"body":"it's impeding their schoolwork or their social relationships with their peers? Then this episode"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":99.485,"endTime":101.905,"body":"has the answers you've been looking for."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":102.205,"endTime":110.07,"body":"We're going to break down the difference between the different forms of impulsiveness from trait impulsiveness to state impulsiveness."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":110.689,"endTime":116.324,"body":"We're going to share the 5 key forms of long term impulsiveness in children, and we're going"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":116.324,"endTime":123.31,"body":"to explore the impact of adverse childhood experiences on impulsiveness and give you a set of"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":123.31,"endTime":129.605,"body":"strategies that you can use with your students to help to train and improve their ability to"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":129.605,"endTime":134.58499999999998,"body":"regulate their impulses, and that's all coming after the intro music."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":135.365,"endTime":138.28,"body":"Welcome to the School Behaviour Secrets podcast."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":138.499,"endTime":139.959,"body":"I'm your host, Simon Currigan."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":140.1,"endTime":145.575,"body":"My co host is Emma Shackleton, and we're obsessed with helping teachers, school leaders, parents,"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":145.575,"endTime":149.675,"body":"and, of course, students when classroom behaviour gets in the way of success."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":149.815,"endTime":154.54,"body":"We're gonna share the tried and tested secrets to classroom management, behavioural special needs,"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":154.62,"endTime":160.0,"body":"whole school strategy, and more, all with the aim of helping your students reach their true potential."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":160.3,"endTime":166.055,"body":"Plus, we'll be letting you eavesdrop on our conversations with thought leaders from around the world."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":166.195,"endTime":170.83499999999998,"body":"So you'll get to hear the latest evidence based strategies before anyone else."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":170.83499999999998,"endTime":175.38,"body":"This is the School Behaviour Secrets podcast. Hi there."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":175.38,"endTime":179.16,"body":"rMy name is Simon Curigan, and welcome to this week's episode of School Behaviour Secrets."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":179.535,"endTime":181.874,"body":"Here's a little known fact about me."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":182.015,"endTime":186.035,"body":"I just can't spell the word occasion. It just baffles me."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":186.175,"endTime":188.06,"body":"First go, I always get it wrong."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":188.14,"endTime":189.74,"body":"True story, not an interesting story."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":189.74,"endTime":193.18,"body":"Not sure how much mileage you're gonna get out of retelling that to your friends and family"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":193.18,"endTime":195.135,"body":"at the pub tonight, but it is a true story."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":195.135,"endTime":198.115,"body":"I'm joined today by my co host, Emma Shackleton. Hi, Emma."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":198.175,"endTime":198.915,"body":"Hi, Simon."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":199.135,"endTime":201.155,"body":"Any words you consistently spell wrong?"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":201.21499999999997,"endTime":207.38,"body":"Loads, actually. And I think it's a family trait because I've noticed that both my mom and my"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":207.38,"endTime":213.98399999999998,"body":"son consistently spell the same words wrong in texts too, which is mildly interesting."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":214.844,"endTime":217.585,"body":"Has this got any relevance to today's episode?"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":218.125,"endTime":222.57999999999998,"body":"Not a lot. We're really putting our finger on the pulse of sort of SEMH issues sweeping the country, aren't you?"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":222.57999999999998,"endTime":227.22,"body":"I just wanted to put our weaknesses all out there in the public domain, but I do have a question"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":227.22,"endTime":229.07399999999998,"body":"that is related to today's show."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":229.375,"endTime":230.195,"body":"Go on then."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":230.335,"endTime":234.915,"body":"Have you ever made an impulse purchase and regretted it afterwards?"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":235.51,"endTime":242.89,"body":"Oh, yeah. Definitely. Not so much lately because I'm trying to think a lot more carefully before I buy stuff now."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":243.095,"endTime":248.774,"body":"But when I was younger, I did buy quite a lot of items of clothing that I really loved in the"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":248.774,"endTime":250.95499999999998,"body":"shop and got excited about and bought."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":251.34,"endTime":256.06,"body":"But then when I got them home, I realised that they were pretty terrible and usually ended up"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":256.06,"endTime":257.74,"body":"taking them back to the shop again."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":257.74,"endTime":259.34000000000003,"body":"You're on an Amazon fast, aren't you?"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":259.34000000000003,"endTime":261.245,"body":"I am. Yes. Amazon fast."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":261.325,"endTime":262.78499999999997,"body":"The worst kind of fast?"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":263.16499999999996,"endTime":266.865,"body":"No. It's great. A lot less recycling to go out as well, I must say."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":267.325,"endTime":270.78499999999997,"body":"So, anyway, what's all this got to do with today's episode?"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":271.19,"endTime":277.21000000000004,"body":"So today, we're gonna share my interview with Ruth Pauli and Stephane De Brito who are researchers into impulsivity."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":277.35,"endTime":284.294,"body":"We're going to explore what impulsivity actually is at a scientific level, how impulsivity actually"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":284.515,"endTime":289.459,"body":"breaks down into a number of different traits or forms, and how we can support pupils whose"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":289.459,"endTime":294.679,"body":"behaviour is overly impulsive in a way that damages their outcomes or their social relationships"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":294.74,"endTime":296.115,"body":"or their experience in school."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":296.515,"endTime":300.615,"body":"Perfect. But before we press play on that interview, I've got a quick request."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":300.83500000000004,"endTime":305.82,"body":"If you're listening to this episode and you're enjoying School Behaviour Secrets and you've taken"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":305.82,"endTime":311.759,"body":"any value at all from it, please could you open your podcast app and hit the subscribe button?"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":312.355,"endTime":317.41499999999996,"body":"Subscribing will take you about 3 seconds, and it makes sure that you never miss another episode."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":317.955,"endTime":322.929,"body":"And while you've got the app open, how about clicking on the share button and letting someone"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":322.929,"endTime":325.75,"body":"else know about School Behaviour Secrets?"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":326.289,"endTime":331.804,"body":"That way, your friends and colleagues will also be able to benefit from the thoughtful, interesting,"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":331.94399999999996,"endTime":336.82,"body":"and sometimes, let's face it, bizarre content that we share."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":337.03999999999996,"endTime":339.62,"body":"Thank you so much for helping to spread the word."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":339.84000000000003,"endTime":343.28,"body":"We've also got a free download that accompanies this episode really well."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":343.28,"endTime":348.68499999999995,"body":"It's called the SEND Handbook, and its purpose is to help you dig into the root causes of student"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":348.68499999999995,"endTime":350.20500000000004,"body":"behaviours that you see in class."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":350.20500000000004,"endTime":356.28999999999996,"body":"And, of course, the idea here isn't for teachers to make a diagnosis because we're just not qualified to do that."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":356.90999999999997,"endTime":363.40999999999997,"body":"But if we can start to link the behaviours that we see to possible underlying causes quickly,"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":363.975,"endTime":369.355,"body":"it means that we can get the right help and get early intervention strategies into place."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":369.735,"endTime":375.09000000000003,"body":"It even comes with a set of fact sheets for conditions like oppositional disorder, fetal alcohol"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":375.09000000000003,"endTime":377.51,"body":"spectrum disorder, and developmental language delay."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":377.80999999999995,"endTime":383.11,"body":"The handbook is a completely free download, and we'll put a direct link in the episode description."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":383.395,"endTime":388.855,"body":"So all you've gotta do is open your podcast app and click directly to get your copy."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":389.155,"endTime":393.55999999999995,"body":"phAnd now here's Simon's interview with Ruth Pauli and Stephane De Brito."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":394.82000000000005,"endTime":399.139,"body":"I'm very excited to welcome Ruth Pauli and Stephane De Brito to the show today."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":399.139,"endTime":403.04499999999996,"body":"Doctor Ruth Pauli is a postdoctoral researcher at the University of Birmingham."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":403.18499999999995,"endTime":408.245,"body":"She studies developmental psychopathology with a focus on impulsivity and behaviour problems."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":408.52,"endTime":413.9,"body":"She uses computational modeling to better understand the cognitive processes involved in psychopathology"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":414.28,"endTime":416.14,"body":"in children and young people."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":416.41499999999996,"endTime":420.995,"body":"Doctor Stephane DeBrito is an associate professor also at the University of Birmingham."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":421.05499999999995,"endTime":426.40999999999997,"body":"He studies severe antisocial behaviour in children and adults and the effects of childhood maltreatment."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":426.78999999999996,"endTime":434.679,"body":"Much of his research uses MRI brain imaging to investigate neural changes associated with the development of antisocial behaviour."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":434.70500000000004,"endTime":440.80499999999995,"body":"And they've agreed kindly to be on the show today to discuss their research into impulsivity in children."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":441.1,"endTime":442.72,"body":"Both of you, welcome to the show."},{"speaker":"Stephane De Brito","startTime":442.78,"endTime":444.78,"body":"Thank you very much, Simon, for having us."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":444.78,"endTime":450.655,"body":"Thank you. So before we go too much further, let's define our terms here and be clear exactly"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":450.655,"endTime":452.995,"body":"what we're talking about when we talk about impulsivity."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":453.855,"endTime":459.53,"body":"So when you think about impulsivity in your research, what are you actually focusing on? What you actually mean?"},{"speaker":"Stephane De Brito","startTime":459.53,"endTime":461.07000000000005,"body":"It's a really good question, Simon."},{"speaker":"Stephane De Brito","startTime":461.28999999999996,"endTime":467.79499999999996,"body":"Actually, if you ask, my colleagues or people on the street, what is impulsivity, they'll probably"},{"speaker":"Stephane De Brito","startTime":467.79499999999996,"endTime":470.135,"body":"all come up with, like, slightly different answer."},{"speaker":"Stephane De Brito","startTime":470.515,"endTime":476.02,"body":"And I would say all of them are correct because what we say is impulsivity is multifaceted."},{"speaker":"Stephane De Brito","startTime":477.03999999999996,"endTime":480.41999999999996,"body":"So some people might say, well, it's acting without regard for consequences."},{"speaker":"Stephane De Brito","startTime":480.94500000000005,"endTime":486.645,"body":"Other might say, well, it's fast reaction without conscious judgment or acting without enough thinking."},{"speaker":"Stephane De Brito","startTime":486.865,"endTime":490.28,"body":"Well, all these aspects are aspects of impulsivity."},{"speaker":"Stephane De Brito","startTime":490.65999999999997,"endTime":496.57899999999995,"body":"If we were to give like a really strict definition, the International Society For Research on"},{"speaker":"Stephane De Brito","startTime":496.57899999999995,"endTime":503.04499999999996,"body":"Impulsivity says it's behaviour without adequate thought, the tendency to act with less forethought"},{"speaker":"Stephane De Brito","startTime":503.42499999999995,"endTime":510.99,"body":"than do most individuals, or a predisposition toward rapid unplanned reaction to internal or"},{"speaker":"Stephane De Brito","startTime":510.99,"endTime":516.77,"body":"external stimuli without the regard to the negative consequences of these actions."},{"speaker":"Stephane De Brito","startTime":517.385,"endTime":523.865,"body":"So it is really a multifaceted construct, that basically reflects this tendency to give in,"},{"speaker":"Stephane De Brito","startTime":523.865,"endTime":530.6899999999999,"body":"to urges, to act before thinking, or seek out excitement, and have difficulty to controlling one's behaviour."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":530.75,"endTime":534.83,"body":"Could you give us some concrete examples of what that might look like in terms of the children"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":534.83,"endTime":536.29,"body":"that you work with and you study?"},{"speaker":"Stephane De Brito","startTime":536.625,"endTime":538.484,"body":"Maybe, Ruth, you want to give some examples?"},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":538.785,"endTime":543.345,"body":"Yeah. So, obviously, there's there's some sort of quite obvious examples that a teacher would be aware of."},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":543.345,"endTime":549.57,"body":"So children who have ADHD or that kind of, presentation, they would often struggle with things"},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":549.57,"endTime":553.89,"body":"like, shouting out an answer to a question in class when they've been told to put their hand"},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":553.89,"endTime":557.285,"body":"up because they know the answer and they just can't quite bring themselves to wait."},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":557.424,"endTime":561.125,"body":"They might do things like risk taking, behaviour in the playground."},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":561.185,"endTime":565.13,"body":"So the football goes up onto the roof or something, and they try and climb after it without"},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":565.13,"endTime":566.51,"body":"really thinking through the consequences."},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":566.889,"endTime":571.975,"body":"But there's also some examples that are probably less obvious because this kind of ADHD or slightly"},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":571.975,"endTime":575.495,"body":"hyperactive presentation, I think most teachers would recognize that."},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":575.495,"endTime":582.07,"body":"But impulsivity is also actually quite common in other types of presentations, so things like anxiety, depression, eating disorders."},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":582.53,"endTime":585.655,"body":"A lot of people with these problems will actually be impulsive as well."},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":585.734,"endTime":589.894,"body":"So in a school, for example, you might have a child who's very conscientious, who's very quiet,"},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":589.894,"endTime":591.674,"body":"who always does their work on time."},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":591.734,"endTime":596.609,"body":"But actually, in an exam situation, they tend to panic, and they see a question they're not"},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":596.609,"endTime":597.89,"body":"quite sure what the answer is."},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":597.89,"endTime":601.57,"body":"Instead of giving it a sufficient thought where they might come up with the right answer, they'll"},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":601.57,"endTime":605.4250000000001,"body":"just write down the first thing that comes into their mind and rush through the rest of the paper."},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":605.485,"endTime":609.4250000000001,"body":"So that's also, I think, another nice example where a child might actually be quite impulsive."},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":609.5640000000001,"endTime":613.879,"body":"But because their behaviour isn't difficult or challenging, it's not going to be picked up on"},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":613.879,"endTime":615.32,"body":"in the same way by a teacher."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":615.32,"endTime":618.6,"body":"That's really, really interesting. You're saying there's a whole kind of, like, raft of behaviours"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":618.6,"endTime":622.5550000000001,"body":"from children that might sort of go under the radar because they're not screaming, shouting,"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":622.5550000000001,"endTime":626.075,"body":"throwing a chair, or getting engaged in kind of like disputes with their friend."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":626.075,"endTime":627.275,"body":"That's really worth thinking about actually."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":627.275,"endTime":631.86,"body":"And often on this show, we're focusing on the big externalising obvious behaviours, but there"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":631.86,"endTime":633.72,"body":"can be other things bubbling underneath can't there?"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":634.02,"endTime":640.6650000000001,"body":"So you divide impulsivity into 2 separate categories, trait impulsivity and state impulsivity."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":641.445,"endTime":643.145,"body":"Can we start with trait impulsivity?"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":643.205,"endTime":646.1850000000001,"body":"What does that look like, and how would we recognize it in the classroom?"},{"speaker":"Stephane De Brito","startTime":646.325,"endTime":652.5500000000001,"body":"Yeah. So, usually, we say impulsivity can be seen as a stable personality facet, like a trait."},{"speaker":"Stephane De Brito","startTime":652.5500000000001,"endTime":656.65,"body":"Usually, we assess, trait impulsivity using a questionnaire."},{"speaker":"Stephane De Brito","startTime":657.035,"endTime":660.8140000000001,"body":"So we can ask the child, we can ask their teacher, we can ask their parent."},{"speaker":"Stephane De Brito","startTime":660.874,"endTime":664.4150000000001,"body":"And we assess different facets of these kind of trait impulsivity."},{"speaker":"Stephane De Brito","startTime":664.874,"endTime":666.64,"body":"Like I said, it's multifaceted."},{"speaker":"Stephane De Brito","startTime":667.4200000000001,"endTime":673.84,"body":"We know that impulsivity trait can be kind of divided in usually, we divide it into kind of 5 categories."},{"speaker":"Stephane De Brito","startTime":674.155,"endTime":676.174,"body":"The first one is what we call urgency."},{"speaker":"Stephane De Brito","startTime":676.554,"endTime":680.575,"body":"So it's kind of acting rashly in an emotional state."},{"speaker":"Stephane De Brito","startTime":680.874,"endTime":682.4110000000001,"body":"So it can be acting in a,"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":682.426,"endTime":682.538,"body":"rashly when you are in a positive"},{"speaker":"Stephane De Brito","startTime":682.538,"endTime":688.51,"body":"state, when you are when you are in a positive state, when you are excited, and that we call it positive urgency."},{"speaker":"Stephane De Brito","startTime":688.97,"endTime":692.4300000000001,"body":"Or you can act rashly when you are in a negative mood."},{"speaker":"Stephane De Brito","startTime":692.535,"endTime":697.975,"body":"So let's say you've just had a bad grade at school and you decide to go on a shopping spree."},{"speaker":"Stephane De Brito","startTime":697.975,"endTime":700.475,"body":"So that's what we would call negative urgency."},{"speaker":"Stephane De Brito","startTime":700.84,"endTime":705.02,"body":"And then there's also the aspect of children who might be lacking in premeditation."},{"speaker":"Stephane De Brito","startTime":705.32,"endTime":708.2,"body":"So failing to think before acting."},{"speaker":"Stephane De Brito","startTime":708.2,"endTime":712.835,"body":"So for example, a child might decide to visit a friend on a school night without checking the"},{"speaker":"Stephane De Brito","startTime":712.835,"endTime":714.535,"body":"return bus is running."},{"speaker":"Stephane De Brito","startTime":715.155,"endTime":717.575,"body":"Or something like lack of perseverance."},{"speaker":"Stephane De Brito","startTime":717.715,"endTime":721.97,"body":"So you can see that some children, they're quite unwilling to tolerate boredom."},{"speaker":"Stephane De Brito","startTime":721.97,"endTime":726.845,"body":"So they can give up on their homework after 5 minutes despite wanting to do well."},{"speaker":"Stephane De Brito","startTime":726.845,"endTime":732.605,"body":"And then a final aspect that we can also pick up on those question and measure is, like Ruth"},{"speaker":"Stephane De Brito","startTime":732.605,"endTime":736.5450000000001,"body":"mentioned, sensation seeking, so seeking out novel or thrilling experiences."},{"speaker":"Stephane De Brito","startTime":736.91,"endTime":742.85,"body":"So for example, Chang would like to to play near the railway track, which obviously is not a great idea."},{"speaker":"Stephane De Brito","startTime":743.15,"endTime":746.885,"body":"We have those questions that can capture those different facets of impulsivity."},{"speaker":"Stephane De Brito","startTime":747.744,"endTime":753.525,"body":"And this is what we would say is tend to be a stable kind of personality facet."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":753.76,"endTime":758.66,"body":"So these are things kind of like in the long term that tend to be true about the child that people recognize."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":759.36,"endTime":762.615,"body":"On an average day, this is kinda like what the child how the child presents."},{"speaker":"Stephane De Brito","startTime":762.615,"endTime":764.135,"body":"Exactly, Simon. Yes."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":764.135,"endTime":770.84,"body":"Okay then. So I'm probably gonna guess that if trait impulsivity are long term qualities. What state impulsivity?"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":770.9,"endTime":774.0400000000001,"body":"I'm guessing that's gonna be shorter term, comes and goes, transient?"},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":774.26,"endTime":778.76,"body":"Yeah. So state impulsivity then is how we measure impulsivity just in the moment."},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":779.095,"endTime":783.595,"body":"So regardless of whether you're generally an impulsive person or not in terms of your personality,"},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":783.895,"endTime":786.874,"body":"we probably all have moments where we do something that's impulsive."},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":787.095,"endTime":791.91,"body":"In research setting, we would measure this more, with computerized tasks, measuring things like"},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":791.91,"endTime":796.489,"body":"reaction times rather than asking someone to reflect on their personality or on their child's personality."},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":796.875,"endTime":799.855,"body":"And again, there's different there's different types of state impulsivity."},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":800.5550000000001,"endTime":804.5550000000001,"body":"So one of them is motor impulsivity, and I think this is quite an interesting one to think about,"},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":804.5550000000001,"endTime":806.71,"body":"especially in terms of primary school children."},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":806.77,"endTime":810.61,"body":"Because it's actually very difficult, especially for a small child, once they've made a decision"},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":810.61,"endTime":815.5550000000001,"body":"to do something physically, you know, grab something that they're interested in and grabbing"},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":815.5550000000001,"endTime":819.235,"body":"or they're running after someone in the playground, it can be quite difficult for them to actually"},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":819.235,"endTime":822.27,"body":"stop that activity, physically to stop themselves."},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":822.41,"endTime":826.89,"body":"So I think a really nice example is the children's game, Simon Says, where you have to do the"},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":826.89,"endTime":828.754,"body":"action sometimes and not other times."},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":828.754,"endTime":833.395,"body":"And a lot of children will struggle with that because they're primed to do something, and then"},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":833.395,"endTime":837.1800000000001,"body":"they can't quite stop themselves in time when they get this cue to not do it this time."},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":837.1800000000001,"endTime":839.82,"body":"And that's developmentally normal for young children."},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":839.82,"endTime":844.5550000000001,"body":"But I think a lot of teachers will see in a primary school that some children grow out of that"},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":844.635,"endTime":849.595,"body":"earlier than others, and it can be a bit of an issue with older children if they can't quite stop themselves in time."},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":849.595,"endTime":854.369,"body":"You know, maybe they're cycling towards a red light and they don't manage to stop in time or,"},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":854.6890000000001,"endTime":858.929,"body":"they're chatting and the teacher tells them to stop talking and they just can't quite do it in time."},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":858.929,"endTime":861.995,"body":"It's not a question of, thinking things through exactly."},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":861.995,"endTime":866.7950000000001,"body":"It's just a physical reaction and they don't quite have the control to stop themselves from doing something."},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":866.7950000000001,"endTime":868.89,"body":"Then we'd also talk about choice impulsivity."},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":869.11,"endTime":870.8100000000001,"body":"So this is when you're given a choice."},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":871.03,"endTime":873.83,"body":"Can you make a decision essentially that you won't regret later?"},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":873.83,"endTime":878.4350000000001,"body":"So typically, we would ask someone, would you like a small reward now, or would you like to"},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":878.4350000000001,"endTime":880.355,"body":"wait a bit longer and have a bigger reward?"},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":880.355,"endTime":885.49,"body":"So maybe you can have a little snack now, or you can wait till later and enjoy pudding after dinner."},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":885.49,"endTime":889.97,"body":"And some people, even adults, of course, but children especially, will find it really, really"},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":889.97,"endTime":896.215,"body":"hard to wait for a bigger reward later even if that might be what on reflection, they would have wanted to choose."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":896.215,"endTime":897.994,"body":"So is this the idea of delayed gratification?"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":898.615,"endTime":901.4300000000001,"body":"Like, foregoing a small reward now for a bigger payoff later?"},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":901.75,"endTime":903.75,"body":"Yes. Exactly. Exactly. It is."},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":903.75,"endTime":907.91,"body":"And, obviously, in in some situations, it might be quite sensible to go for the smaller reward."},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":907.91,"endTime":912.465,"body":"So maybe you've been offered something by an adult and you think, well, actually, that adult isn't very trustworthy."},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":912.605,"endTime":915.085,"body":"In the past, they said they're going to do something and then they don't."},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":915.085,"endTime":918.4200000000001,"body":"So maybe it actually makes sense for me to take the smaller reward."},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":918.48,"endTime":923.28,"body":"But in general, children who do that will often regret later that they didn't wait longer."},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":923.28,"endTime":925.975,"body":"So it's still a sort of a problem if they if they're like that."},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":925.975,"endTime":930.215,"body":"And then we also talk about reflection impulsivity, which is when you make a decision when you"},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":930.215,"endTime":933.57,"body":"haven't got enough information essentially to make that decision."},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":933.57,"endTime":938.21,"body":"And I mentioned earlier about a child, panicking in the exam and maybe writing down an answer"},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":938.21,"endTime":941.1850000000001,"body":"that they wouldn't have written down if they'd thought about it for a bit longer."},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":941.1850000000001,"endTime":942.725,"body":"So that's an example of that."},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":942.785,"endTime":946.865,"body":"And again, conversely, you don't want to wait too long if you do know that you've got enough information."},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":946.865,"endTime":950.96,"body":"There's no point sitting there for half an hour pondering over your one answer when you've got"},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":950.96,"endTime":952.58,"body":"20 more that you still got to do."},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":952.64,"endTime":957.095,"body":"But you shouldn't just do the first thing that comes to mind without thinking through, whether"},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":957.095,"endTime":959.254,"body":"you've got enough information to make that decision."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":959.254,"endTime":964.26,"body":"Okay. So I think everyone listening to this can imagine how these different types of impulsivity"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":964.48,"endTime":968.16,"body":"would affect a child in the classroom being successful both academically and emotionally and"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":968.16,"endTime":971.525,"body":"socially as well because all these things are kinda bound together, aren't they?"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":971.525,"endTime":975.945,"body":"Can you tell us a little bit about how you're researching this in children?"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":976.245,"endTime":977.5450000000001,"body":"Because you're doing this scientifically."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":977.66,"endTime":981.179,"body":"You're not kinda like doing this anecdotally like teachers comparing notes in the classroom."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":981.179,"endTime":983.0400000000001,"body":"You're doing something concrete and specific."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":983.179,"endTime":987.025,"body":"I think our listeners will be really interested in finding out about exactly what your approach is."},{"speaker":"Stephane De Brito","startTime":987.265,"endTime":994.004,"body":"What is really fascinating is so we know that these different facets of impulsivity, trait and state exist."},{"speaker":"Stephane De Brito","startTime":994.36,"endTime":998.62,"body":"What is really interesting is that they tend not really to correlate with each other."},{"speaker":"Stephane De Brito","startTime":998.9200000000001,"endTime":1004.254,"body":"So in that sense, you can have children who might be showing high level of, you know, urgency"},{"speaker":"Stephane De Brito","startTime":1004.475,"endTime":1007.0550000000001,"body":"but actually low level of sensation seeking."},{"speaker":"Stephane De Brito","startTime":1007.355,"endTime":1011.9150000000001,"body":"Or they might be showing high level of motor impulsivity but not being really impulsive when"},{"speaker":"Stephane De Brito","startTime":1011.9150000000001,"endTime":1017.53,"body":"we think about the level of So our research is really measuring those different facets in a"},{"speaker":"Stephane De Brito","startTime":1017.53,"endTime":1020.75,"body":"very detailed way using questionnaire, using task."},{"speaker":"Stephane De Brito","startTime":1020.755,"endTime":1027.735,"body":"So in terms of task, we have basically collaborated with colleagues in Australia who have developed gamified tasks."},{"speaker":"Stephane De Brito","startTime":1028.18,"endTime":1033.72,"body":"Those are tasks that look a bit like video games, but they are designed to measure, to assess"},{"speaker":"Stephane De Brito","startTime":1033.78,"endTime":1038.0049999999999,"body":"very in a sensitive way all these different facet of state impulsivity."},{"speaker":"Stephane De Brito","startTime":1038.385,"endTime":1043.185,"body":"So a game like a bit of like a Pac Man game where the child has to decide whether he wants to"},{"speaker":"Stephane De Brito","startTime":1043.185,"endTime":1048.6499999999999,"body":"take a longer route to go and get a coin that might be worth 100 points as opposed to take a"},{"speaker":"Stephane De Brito","startTime":1048.6499999999999,"endTime":1050.57,"body":"shortcut and just get 5 points."},{"speaker":"Stephane De Brito","startTime":1050.57,"endTime":1056.095,"body":"So we have a number of tasks like this where we can look at how the child makes those decisions"},{"speaker":"Stephane De Brito","startTime":1056.315,"endTime":1059.135,"body":"and kind of measures those different facets of impulsivity."},{"speaker":"Stephane De Brito","startTime":1059.675,"endTime":1062.335,"body":"And we can also manipulate their mood."},{"speaker":"Stephane De Brito","startTime":1062.42,"endTime":1068.04,"body":"So getting them a bit more excited or a bit more frustrated and see whether different mood,"},{"speaker":"Stephane De Brito","startTime":1068.499,"endTime":1072.715,"body":"state, influence, exacerbate some of those facets of impulsivity."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1073.0149999999999,"endTime":1074.855,"body":"And what do you find when you run those tests?"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1074.855,"endTime":1078.475,"body":"Are you at the point yet where you're starting to discover any patterns?"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1078.615,"endTime":1082.84,"body":"Or like you said, you're discovering that, different traits don't necessarily overlap."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1082.84,"endTime":1087.24,"body":"You might have one or another, but they you tend not to have full house to describe it that way."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1087.24,"endTime":1088.7549999999999,"body":"Well, what kind of things are you discovering?"},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":1088.835,"endTime":1092.115,"body":"We're still collecting data, so we haven't looked at our results for that yet."},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":1092.115,"endTime":1096.115,"body":"Anecdotally, working with the children, I do see that there are differences in how they respond"},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":1096.115,"endTime":1097.315,"body":"to these kinds of tests."},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":1097.315,"endTime":1100.251,"body":"We have one task, for example, which is quite fun with the younger children."},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":1100.251,"endTime":1104.7839999999999,"body":"We call it a picture decision task, and we have a picture that's revealed gradually bit by bit on the screen."},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":1104.7839999999999,"endTime":1109.415,"body":"So they might see a line, and then they're asked, would you like to guess what this picture is showing now?"},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":1109.415,"endTime":1110.455,"body":"Or would you like to see a bit more?"},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":1110.455,"endTime":1113.415,"body":"And they can ask you a bit more, and it eventually builds up to the full picture."},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":1113.415,"endTime":1115.175,"body":"And that's about information gathering."},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":1115.175,"endTime":1120.759,"body":"So will they make a decision too early, or will they perhaps, wait even longer when they kind"},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":1120.759,"endTime":1121.9599999999998,"body":"of knew what it was already?"},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":1121.9599999999998,"endTime":1125.32,"body":"And we definitely see some differences in how children are responding to that."},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":1125.32,"endTime":1130.965,"body":"So I noticed, for example, that a child who is quite conscientious and generally quiet, if they"},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":1130.965,"endTime":1135.365,"body":"realize they've made a mistake in a previous, trial and they've guessed a bit too early, they'll"},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":1135.365,"endTime":1137.84,"body":"wait much longer and so on."},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":1137.84,"endTime":1141.379,"body":"We haven't analyzed the data to see whether that's going to come out across the whole sample,"},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":1141.4399999999998,"endTime":1146.0449999999998,"body":"but just looking at the children that we've had in so far, we do notice some differences."},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":1146.425,"endTime":1150.185,"body":"And we also, of course, we notice differences in how well the children can actually tolerate"},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":1150.185,"endTime":1151.465,"body":"sitting in a room and doing these"},{"speaker":"Stephane De Brito","startTime":1151.465,"endTime":1152.445,"body":"tasks as well."},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":1153.28,"endTime":1156.8,"body":"Some of the little ones, they, they they struggle and they need a few breaks."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1156.8,"endTime":1158.08,"body":"That that sounds really interesting."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1158.08,"endTime":1165.5749999999998,"body":"It sounds as if the children themselves, for themselves, are learning to manage those impulses"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1165.5749999999998,"endTime":1166.855,"body":"based on the feedback they're getting."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1166.855,"endTime":1168.7749999999999,"body":"Is that maybe early signs?"},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":1168.7749999999999,"endTime":1172.4399999999998,"body":"Yeah. So in all of these games, they get feedback on what they've just done."},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":1172.4399999999998,"endTime":1177.0,"body":"So if, for example, in a in a sort of measurement of reaction time, they've pressed too late"},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":1177.0,"endTime":1178.6799999999998,"body":"or something, they'll get feedback on that."},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":1178.6799999999998,"endTime":1180.06,"body":"They do learn from that."},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":1180.145,"endTime":1183.3449999999998,"body":"There's obviously also a motor component, a physical component."},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":1183.3449999999998,"endTime":1186.625,"body":"So especially for the younger children or the more impulsive children, and if they have that"},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":1186.625,"endTime":1191.4099999999999,"body":"kind of motor impulsivity that we talked about earlier, they might be perfectly able to see"},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":1191.4099999999999,"endTime":1195.51,"body":"what the feedback is, but they can't quite stop themselves from responding anyway."},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":1195.6499999999999,"endTime":1199.3449999999998,"body":"And we do see that with the little ones, and they sometimes get quite frustrated because they"},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":1199.3449999999998,"endTime":1202.725,"body":"they understand the game, but they just can't quite do it physically."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1202.7839999999999,"endTime":1204.725,"body":"What's the overall aim of your research?"},{"speaker":"Stephane De Brito","startTime":1204.7839999999999,"endTime":1211.28,"body":"So the research we are doing at the moment is is to try to understand how early adversity in"},{"speaker":"Stephane De Brito","startTime":1211.28,"endTime":1216.4199999999998,"body":"the form of child maltreatment might influence those different facets of impulsivity."},{"speaker":"Stephane De Brito","startTime":1217.3049999999998,"endTime":1222.425,"body":"So what we know from previous research is that there is an association between early childhood"},{"speaker":"Stephane De Brito","startTime":1222.425,"endTime":1228.99,"body":"maltreatment and the development of psychopathology, both internalizing problem and externalizing problems."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1229.129,"endTime":1232.6699999999998,"body":"Before you go any further, can I just ask you for listeners what you mean by psychopathology"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1232.945,"endTime":1235.105,"body":"just in case they're hearing this down for the first time?"},{"speaker":"Stephane De Brito","startTime":1235.105,"endTime":1240.0849999999998,"body":"Yeah. So we know that there is a relationship between early adversity, childhood maltreatment,"},{"speaker":"Stephane De Brito","startTime":1240.519,"endTime":1243.899,"body":"and psychopathology, which is basically psychiatric disorder."},{"speaker":"Stephane De Brito","startTime":1244.279,"endTime":1253.634,"body":"So things like depression, mood, and anxiety, but also externalizing problems like ADHD, conduct disorder, oppositional defiant disorder."},{"speaker":"Stephane De Brito","startTime":1254.175,"endTime":1260.509,"body":"And in our research, our hypothesis is that maltreatment exacerbate different forms of impulsivity."},{"speaker":"Stephane De Brito","startTime":1261.129,"endTime":1267.5049999999999,"body":"Because we know that impulsivity is present in different form of psychopathology, both in depression,"},{"speaker":"Stephane De Brito","startTime":1267.8049999999998,"endTime":1270.5449999999998,"body":"anxiety, but also externalizing problem."},{"speaker":"Stephane De Brito","startTime":1270.605,"endTime":1275.6799999999998,"body":"So our working hypothesis is that children who have experienced early adversity in the form"},{"speaker":"Stephane De Brito","startTime":1275.6799999999998,"endTime":1282.425,"body":"of childhood maltreatment, this has had an impact on their impulsivity, which in turn increases"},{"speaker":"Stephane De Brito","startTime":1282.5649999999998,"endTime":1286.165,"body":"their risk of developing mental health problem later on."},{"speaker":"Stephane De Brito","startTime":1286.165,"endTime":1291.4989999999998,"body":"So that's basically the aim of our research is to try to understand the relationship between"},{"speaker":"Stephane De Brito","startTime":1291.4989999999998,"endTime":1294.2389999999998,"body":"those 3 different variables, if you want."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1294.379,"endTime":1299.34,"body":"And when I speak to teachers in classrooms and we look at children, one of the phrases they"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1299.34,"endTime":1303.5849999999998,"body":"often use is that they live sort of in inverted commas in the now."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1303.5849999999998,"endTime":1304.7849999999999,"body":"They don't think things through."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1304.7849999999999,"endTime":1307.24,"body":"They're very now focused survival in the moment."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1307.24,"endTime":1313.0,"body":"And I guess that would tally with that kind of underlying brain development, which is what you're"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1313.0,"endTime":1314.6799999999998,"body":"investigating to see whether that's true, isn't it?"},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":1314.6799999999998,"endTime":1321.3149999999998,"body":"Yeah. So yeah. Definitely. I think behaviours that are impulsive or not impulsive is very much learned from our environment."},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":1321.3149999999998,"endTime":1328.1,"body":"So if a child's grown up in an environment where there's no consistency and they've got unreliable"},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":1328.24,"endTime":1332.605,"body":"adults or things keep changing that are out of their control, that's not an environment that"},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":1332.605,"endTime":1337.645,"body":"is going to teach a child to restrain their impulses or, you know, wait for a later reward rather"},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":1337.645,"endTime":1339.9499999999998,"body":"than a a smaller one now, that kind of thing."},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":1339.9499999999998,"endTime":1340.9089999999999,"body":"Because you just have to."},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":1340.9089999999999,"endTime":1345.25,"body":"And if you're living in that kind of environment, you know, if there's food available now, you've got to take it."},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":1345.3899999999999,"endTime":1347.4699999999998,"body":"And that's not just a child in a sense."},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":1347.4699999999998,"endTime":1348.5649999999998,"body":"It's also true for the adult."},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":1348.5649999999998,"endTime":1350.985,"body":"You know, they might have to eat what's available."},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":1351.0449999999998,"endTime":1355.3639999999998,"body":"They might have to, take what accommodation is available rather than being able to save up and"},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":1355.3639999999998,"endTime":1357.384,"body":"move somewhere nicer or safer."},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":1357.54,"endTime":1359.8,"body":"People just often have to live in that way."},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":1360.02,"endTime":1365.3,"body":"So children often coming into school where they've had this environment from birth that is encouraging"},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":1365.3,"endTime":1372.735,"body":"them to be impulsive, Sometimes through poverty and lack of resources, but also if the parent is inconsistent or unreliable."},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":1372.7949999999998,"endTime":1376.05,"body":"So they say that they're going to do something and then they don't do it and so on."},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":1376.129,"endTime":1379.11,"body":"And that's been sort of taught the children almost as a habit."},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":1379.1699999999998,"endTime":1383.0649999999998,"body":"And then they come into school and the school environment is obviously or hopefully, it's different,"},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":1383.144,"endTime":1386.904,"body":"and now it's not going to reward impulsive behaviors in quite the same way."},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":1386.904,"endTime":1389.865,"body":"But children have to sort of relearn when they come into school."},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":1389.865,"endTime":1393.23,"body":"So they need to have that really, really consistent environment."},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":1393.23,"endTime":1394.59,"body":"They need to have clear routines."},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":1394.59,"endTime":1395.9699999999998,"body":"They need to have clear consequences."},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":1396.1899999999998,"endTime":1401.9699999999998,"body":"All the things that would be helpful for any child, but they're so much more important for children who haven't had that"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1409.855,"endTime":1410.023,"body":"Because these impulsive behaviours, they're habits really."},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":1410.023,"endTime":1413.34,"body":"They're sort of learnt ways of because these impulsive behaviours, they're habits really."},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":1413.34,"endTime":1416.24,"body":"They're sort of learnt ways of responding that the child has."},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":1416.4599999999998,"endTime":1421.205,"body":"And if you've had a very inconsistent environment, then it's, of course, going to take you longer"},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":1421.205,"endTime":1423.5449999999998,"body":"to realize that this environment is not inconsistent."},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":1423.8449999999998,"endTime":1428.36,"body":"So if the teacher is trying to be very consistent and have very good routines with the child,"},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":1428.36,"endTime":1433.1,"body":"but after a month or two, they think, oh, this just this isn't making any difference. The child isn't responding."},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":1433.3999999999999,"endTime":1438.475,"body":"I'd say don't give up because the child might have had 4 or 5 years where they haven't had consistency."},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":1439.0149999999999,"endTime":1444.8,"body":"Therefore, they're gonna have to take longer to learn that this is a consistent environment. And children can change."},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":1444.8,"endTime":1447.4599999999998,"body":"They can change these habits and ways of responding."},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":1447.6,"endTime":1452.2649999999999,"body":"So even if it doesn't feel to the teacher that they're making a lot of progress, the fact that"},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":1452.2649999999999,"endTime":1456.665,"body":"they are being consistent and the child has that structured environment will be helping them."},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":1456.665,"endTime":1462.01,"body":"And, hopefully, over sort of months, years even, the child's, impulsive behaviour will start"},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":1462.01,"endTime":1466.01,"body":"to improve, and they will start to have more impulse control, especially as they grow up."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1466.01,"endTime":1470.8349999999998,"body":"And in your research, you're sort of specifically comparing groups of kids that have had kind"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1470.8349999999998,"endTime":1474.195,"body":"of, like, adverse childhood experiences as opposed to a control group."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1474.195,"endTime":1476.0339999999999,"body":"There'll be teachers listening to this thinking, hold on."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1476.0339999999999,"endTime":1478.759,"body":"I've got a child with ADHD. That's slightly different. Yeah?"},{"speaker":"Stephane De Brito","startTime":1478.899,"endTime":1484.84,"body":"Yeah. Basically, the the focus of the the research is really to understand how childhood maltreatment"},{"speaker":"Stephane De Brito","startTime":1485.2199999999998,"endTime":1488.365,"body":"might have influenced those different facets of impulsivity."},{"speaker":"Stephane De Brito","startTime":1488.5849999999998,"endTime":1493.85,"body":"So we are collaborating with different agency who, come and school who come in contact with"},{"speaker":"Stephane De Brito","startTime":1493.85,"endTime":1498.51,"body":"children who have experienced different forms of adversity, specifically child maltreatment."},{"speaker":"Stephane De Brito","startTime":1498.9699999999998,"endTime":1504.5749999999998,"body":"And we are basically comparing those who have experienced quite high level of those adversity"},{"speaker":"Stephane De Brito","startTime":1504.715,"endTime":1510.0749999999998,"body":"versus children who haven't experienced this kind of, adversity to try to really understand"},{"speaker":"Stephane De Brito","startTime":1510.0749999999998,"endTime":1514.36,"body":"how maltreatment might be related to these different facets of impulsivity."},{"speaker":"Stephane De Brito","startTime":1515.06,"endTime":1520.355,"body":"But like everything, we just not look at it like just clear cut. Yes. No."},{"speaker":"Stephane De Brito","startTime":1520.355,"endTime":1526.195,"body":"We can also look more dimensionally in terms of quantifying kind of how much of kind of early"},{"speaker":"Stephane De Brito","startTime":1526.195,"endTime":1530.09,"body":"adversity is kind of related to these different facets of impulsivity."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1530.55,"endTime":1535.4299999999998,"body":"Can you give us examples of any strategies or activities teachers can use to support children"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1535.4299999999998,"endTime":1540.935,"body":"or parents can use to support children whose impulsivity is a barrier to their success, especially in school?"},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":1540.995,"endTime":1544.2749999999999,"body":"So we we already talked a bit about some of the obvious things that teachers, I think, will"},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":1544.2749999999999,"endTime":1548.02,"body":"be aware of, like clear routines, consequences, structure, and so on."},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":1548.02,"endTime":1553.24,"body":"But I'd also say, especially with little children, there's a lot of traditional games and activities"},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":1553.3,"endTime":1559.1239999999998,"body":"that although they're not explicitly perhaps designed in a sense to help with impulsivity, they are actually very helpful."},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":1559.1239999999998,"endTime":1563.8449999999998,"body":"So these kinds of games like Grandmother's Footsteps and Simon Says, they do help the child"},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":1563.8449999999998,"endTime":1567.81,"body":"to learn to control their impulses, in that case, their motor impulses."},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":1567.81,"endTime":1572.6899999999998,"body":"And I think other activities which naturally involve waiting or have a bit of rhythm or routine to them."},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":1572.6899999999998,"endTime":1576.2949999999998,"body":"So, for example, if you make a loaf of bread, you've got to wait for it to rise and you've got"},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":1576.2949999999998,"endTime":1577.2549999999999,"body":"to wait for it to bake."},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":1577.2549999999999,"endTime":1578.935,"body":"You can't just eat it straight away."},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":1578.935,"endTime":1583.6499999999999,"body":"If you're growing seeds in the forest school area or in the garden, whatever you have at school,"},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":1583.6499999999999,"endTime":1586.77,"body":"then you've got to wait for the right season, and you've got to wait for the sunshine, and you've"},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":1586.77,"endTime":1589.905,"body":"got to wait for the rain, and you've got to wait for their fruits to mature and so on."},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":1589.905,"endTime":1593.365,"body":"I think a lot of children these days, they're not having a lot of those kinds of experiences"},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":1593.5849999999998,"endTime":1599.99,"body":"even in quite, you know, well functioning households because we live in a very sort of now focused culture."},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":1599.99,"endTime":1602.07,"body":"So they might be, online a lot."},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":1602.07,"endTime":1603.75,"body":"They can order whatever they want off Amazon."},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":1603.75,"endTime":1605.35,"body":"It will be delivered tomorrow."},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":1605.35,"endTime":1608.0549999999998,"body":"We don't have a lot of waiting generally in our culture."},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":1608.0549999999998,"endTime":1611.3719999999998,"body":"We don't have a lot of incentive to wait for things because we don't have to."},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":1611.3719999999998,"endTime":1613.2379999999998,"body":"And I think for children, that's not very helpful."},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":1613.2379999999998,"endTime":1617.177,"body":"So all of these kinds of games and activities that give them a bit of rhythm in their lives"},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":1617.177,"endTime":1619.32,"body":"and a bit of natural waiting."},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":1619.32,"endTime":1620.12,"body":"You know, not as a punishment."},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":1620.12,"endTime":1623.8,"body":"I'm not telling the child it's good for you to wait, so I'm going to make you wait for a week"},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":1623.8,"endTime":1625.9599999999998,"body":"before you get your parcel over in the post."},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":1625.9599999999998,"endTime":1630.125,"body":"But things where you naturally have to wait, I think that's very helpful for children when the"},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":1630.125,"endTime":1631.745,"body":"teacher can do that at school."},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":1631.965,"endTime":1638.1299999999999,"body":"I'd also say that impulsive behaviours, a lot of these sort of behaviours in general, as we said, they are a habit."},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":1638.27,"endTime":1642.35,"body":"And if children are going to learn good habits, they need to practice getting it right, not"},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":1642.35,"endTime":1643.885,"body":"getting it wrong, if that makes sense."},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":1643.885,"endTime":1648.125,"body":"So I think it's really important, especially for primary school age children, to minimize the"},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":1648.125,"endTime":1650.865,"body":"opportunities that they have to go wrong, to make mistakes."},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":1651.3,"endTime":1655.86,"body":"So if you know that a child is going to be distracted by having a fidget toy on their desk or"},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":1655.86,"endTime":1660.3449999999998,"body":"having a brightly colored display next to them or perhaps another child who's going to speak to them."},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":1660.3449999999998,"endTime":1664.985,"body":"Just try and avoid putting them in that situation in the first place because they are only going"},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":1664.985,"endTime":1668.905,"body":"to learn that they get put there and then they start chatting and this is what happens at school"},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":1668.905,"endTime":1670.389,"body":"and it becomes a learned habit."},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":1670.389,"endTime":1675.35,"body":"So if they can sort of prevent rather than cure in a sense in that way by avoiding opportunities"},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":1675.35,"endTime":1677.425,"body":"for children to make mistakes and go wrong."},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":1677.5649999999998,"endTime":1681.8049999999998,"body":"It's also, I think, a a very good idea for teachers to try and observe children as closely as"},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":1681.8049999999998,"endTime":1685.3,"body":"as possible to look at what kind of triggers there are for impulsive behaviour."},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":1685.3,"endTime":1690.26,"body":"So Stephane mentioned earlier about positive and negative urgency and how in general different"},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":1690.26,"endTime":1692.945,"body":"mood states could be triggers for different children."},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":1693.165,"endTime":1696.764,"body":"So it might be that you have one child, and as soon as they're a bit bored or they haven't got"},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":1696.764,"endTime":1700.8449999999998,"body":"something that's interesting for them to do, then they will start to act impulsively, wander"},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":1700.8449999999998,"endTime":1703.2099999999998,"body":"off, start chatting, do things they're going to regret."},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":1703.4299999999998,"endTime":1706.33,"body":"For another child, it might be when they're under time pressure."},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":1706.7099999999998,"endTime":1711.5549999999998,"body":"So a more anxious child, for example, they might really struggle to complete a piece of work"},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":1711.5549999999998,"endTime":1715.715,"body":"if they know that they've got time pressure because that just puts them in a state where they can't focus."},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":1715.715,"endTime":1719.129,"body":"And And then another child might be the complete opposite that they actually need a bit of time"},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":1719.129,"endTime":1722.889,"body":"pressure to focus them, otherwise they sort of feel out with, you know, I can do that later."},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":1722.889,"endTime":1727.502,"body":"So I think as far as as much as it's possible in a sort of busy classroom environment, the teacher"},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":1727.502,"endTime":1731.4599999999998,"body":"should try to think about these different triggers and mitigate them as much as possible because"},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":1731.4599999999998,"endTime":1733.98,"body":"it will be very different for different children."},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":1733.98,"endTime":1738.2199999999998,"body":"And I think one last thing that I see happening in schools, which I think maybe isn't always"},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":1738.2199999999998,"endTime":1742.425,"body":"helpful in this particular context, is that we tend to give children a lot of choices."},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":1742.644,"endTime":1745.445,"body":"And, obviously, that can be, helpful in some situations."},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":1745.445,"endTime":1749.149,"body":"So if a child doesn't react well to authority and you need them to do something, it might be"},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":1749.149,"endTime":1752.77,"body":"helpful to give them a choice so that they feel that they've made the decision to comply."},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":1752.83,"endTime":1756.5549999999998,"body":"But for children who are impulsive, I think sometimes that's quite unhelpful because this is"},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":1756.5549999999998,"endTime":1760.3149999999998,"body":"the kind of situation where they're really going to struggle to make a thoughtful decision."},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":1760.3149999999998,"endTime":1764.475,"body":"And if we're giving them constant decisions, it's it's almost like a cognitive overload for"},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":1764.475,"endTime":1767.35,"body":"them that they're just not quite going to be able to cope with that."},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":1767.35,"endTime":1771.59,"body":"And I think as adults, it's really easy for us to think, well, if we're offering them, you know,"},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":1771.59,"endTime":1775.5149999999999,"body":"do your maths now and then do some coloring in 5 minutes or do some coloring now and do your"},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":1775.5149999999999,"endTime":1778.395,"body":"maths in 5 minutes, it's it's trivial and it doesn't really matter."},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":1778.395,"endTime":1781.915,"body":"But if you're 5, that might be the most important decision that you've made all day."},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":1781.915,"endTime":1784.98,"body":"So it's quite a lot when children have to make these choices constantly."},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":1785.4399999999998,"endTime":1791.279,"body":"And I talked earlier about avoiding opportunities for children to go wrong or to make mistakes they're going to regret."},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":1791.279,"endTime":1793.2199999999998,"body":"And I think that's really relevant here."},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":1793.3049999999998,"endTime":1797.145,"body":"So I would say if you know that a child is actually going to struggle with decisions, is going"},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":1797.145,"endTime":1801.6799999999998,"body":"to struggle with making thoughtful decisions, try and avoid giving them lots and lots of choices"},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":1801.6799999999998,"endTime":1805.9989999999998,"body":"if you can because it it is really just a form of cognitive overload for them, and it just gives"},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":1805.9989999999998,"endTime":1810.405,"body":"them opportunities to make mistakes and get in the habit of making mistakes that they will regret."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1810.645,"endTime":1814.0049999999999,"body":"We're actually seeing this more and more in the early years where they they go into a classroom"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1814.0049999999999,"endTime":1816.0849999999998,"body":"and they just have this tidal wave of choices."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1816.0849999999998,"endTime":1817.6899999999998,"body":"They could go to one table or another table."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1817.6899999999998,"endTime":1818.73,"body":"They can go outside or they could play."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1818.73,"endTime":1819.4499999999998,"body":"And you just see them."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1819.4499999999998,"endTime":1821.79,"body":"And for a moment, they're frozen and then they're overwhelmed."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1822.1699999999998,"endTime":1829.695,"body":"And then they just get emotionally heightened and don't know what to do, so they throw the LEGO bricks at someone. So that's really true. It's really, really true. Is impulsivity always bad?"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1829.8349999999998,"endTime":1833.6139999999998,"body":"Are there any cases where it might be adaptive for certain students to be impulsive?"},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":1833.754,"endTime":1837.6,"body":"Yeah. Definitely. I think some people would say, by definition, impulsivity is bad."},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":1837.6,"endTime":1841.4399999999998,"body":"But if we go with the the sort of broader definition that Stephane talked about earlier, then,"},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":1841.4399999999998,"endTime":1843.2199999999998,"body":"yes, I would say definitely it's helpful."},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":1843.3449999999998,"endTime":1848.465,"body":"Mean, we already talked about the kind of home environment where you often need to be impulsive just to survive."},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":1848.465,"endTime":1852.649,"body":"So don't wait to have a delicious meal later if there's food now because you don't know if you're"},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":1852.649,"endTime":1854.4089999999999,"body":"going to get your delicious meal later."},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":1854.4089999999999,"endTime":1858.9699999999998,"body":"And, you know, if an adult is volatile or is violent, you need to be able to make a snap decision"},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":1858.9699999999998,"endTime":1861.0449999999998,"body":"about whether you're going to to stay in the room or run away."},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":1861.0449999999998,"endTime":1866.0849999999998,"body":"You need to be able to read people's emotional states very quickly to be able to keep yourself"},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":1866.0849999999998,"endTime":1870.6899999999998,"body":"safe, which then in an environment like school might make a child very, hyperreactive to emotion,"},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":1870.6899999999998,"endTime":1873.9699999999998,"body":"but home or in a more volatile environment that actually makes sense."},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":1873.9699999999998,"endTime":1877.49,"body":"But even for children who don't come from these kinds of backgrounds, I think there are situations"},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":1877.49,"endTime":1880.3149999999998,"body":"for all of us where impulsive decisions are necessary."},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":1880.615,"endTime":1884.215,"body":"So, for example, if we're in a life or death situation, you're not going to stand there and"},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":1884.215,"endTime":1885.2549999999999,"body":"think through all your options."},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":1885.2549999999999,"endTime":1888.51,"body":"You know, shall I go and help that child get down from the tree, or should I just sit here and"},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":1888.51,"endTime":1889.81,"body":"wonder if they're going to fall?"},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":1890.27,"endTime":1891.9499999999998,"body":"You have to make a decision, don't you?"},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":1891.9499999999998,"endTime":1893.31,"body":"You have to just jump to it."},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":1893.31,"endTime":1896.2099999999998,"body":"And so we wouldn't want to not be impulsive in that situation."},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":1896.654,"endTime":1898.3349999999998,"body":"And there are other examples as well."},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":1898.3349999999998,"endTime":1901.215,"body":"You know, sometimes, I think we've all had this experience."},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":1901.215,"endTime":1903.0549999999998,"body":"You're browsing for something online."},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":1903.0549999999998,"endTime":1906.0949999999998,"body":"You're wasting a bit of time maybe because you're putting off doing something else that you"},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":1906.0949999999998,"endTime":1911.139,"body":"ought to be doing, and you spend hours and hours comparing 2 saucepans on Amazon or something."},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":1911.279,"endTime":1914.08,"body":"You don't really need to spend that much time making that decision."},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":1914.08,"endTime":1917.365,"body":"You know, you could have a quick look, see which one's got better reviews, make a decision,"},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":1917.365,"endTime":1918.965,"body":"and get on with what you're supposed to be doing."},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":1918.965,"endTime":1920.165,"body":"So there's definitely a balance."},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":1920.165,"endTime":1924.0849999999998,"body":"You don't want to be overly impulsive, but you don't want to be indecisive as well and waste"},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":1924.0849999999998,"endTime":1926.5,"body":"lots time doing things that you don't need to be doing."},{"speaker":"Stephane De Brito","startTime":1926.9599999999998,"endTime":1932.6399999999999,"body":"No. And just to go back, to children and kind of in the classroom, I think one of the thing"},{"speaker":"Stephane De Brito","startTime":1932.6399999999999,"endTime":1937.745,"body":"that was also mentioned in a previous podcast is they will get it wrong, the children."},{"speaker":"Stephane De Brito","startTime":1938.0449999999998,"endTime":1943.4489999999998,"body":"And it's really trying to focus on positive reinforcement when they get it right and to try"},{"speaker":"Stephane De Brito","startTime":1943.4489999999998,"endTime":1948.73,"body":"to encourage when they've shown example where they they could wait for their turn, where they"},{"speaker":"Stephane De Brito","startTime":1948.73,"endTime":1953.975,"body":"didn't act too rationally, is actually praising them and and giving a lot of positive reinforcement"},{"speaker":"Stephane De Brito","startTime":1954.115,"endTime":1956.7749999999999,"body":"rather than focusing on when they they get it wrong."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1956.8349999999998,"endTime":1960.62,"body":"To encourage that behaviour in the future, that sort of delayed gratification or the thinking"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1960.62,"endTime":1963.58,"body":"ahead or the restraining of the sensory impulse, whatever it was."},{"speaker":"Stephane De Brito","startTime":1963.58,"endTime":1964.08,"body":"Exactly."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1964.3,"endTime":1969.0949999999998,"body":"Your research is really interesting, and I know this is where our audience comes in, that you"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1969.0949999999998,"endTime":1973.675,"body":"are looking for families and children to participate in your study right now."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1973.8149999999998,"endTime":1977.8,"body":"So if schools or families wanna get involved, what are you looking for?"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1977.8,"endTime":1979.82,"body":"What does their participation look like?"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1980.12,"endTime":1981.9599999999998,"body":"And how do they get in touch with you?"},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":1981.9599999999998,"endTime":1984.6999999999998,"body":"So we're running a study at the University of Birmingham."},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":1984.8449999999998,"endTime":1989.3249999999998,"body":"We're asking families to come and, visit us at the university to take part, ideally."},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":1989.3249999999998,"endTime":1993.269,"body":"Although if there are people who are interested in taking part and they live further afield,"},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":1993.269,"endTime":1998.33,"body":"we do have a short online version that families can do as well, so they don't have to visit us in person."},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":1998.389,"endTime":2005.0339999999999,"body":"We're looking for children aged 9 to 16 years old and a parent or carer who can participate with them."},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":2005.0949999999998,"endTime":2007.0949999999998,"body":"We can take most children in that age range."},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":2007.0949999999998,"endTime":2009.494,"body":"Unfortunately, we we can't take children with autism."},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":2009.494,"endTime":2013.11,"body":"That's just part of our ethics that we can't take them at the moment if they've got a diagnosis."},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":2013.25,"endTime":2017.57,"body":"And they would have to be able to sort of understand the the purpose of the study and so on to consent."},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":2017.57,"endTime":2019.0849999999998,"body":"But assuming they meet all those criteria,"},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":2022.7649999999999,"endTime":2025.965,"body":"University of Birmingham, and they can come for 1 or 2 sessions."},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":2025.965,"endTime":2030.12,"body":"So, typically, they might come for 2 afternoons after school or they might come for a whole"},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":2030.12,"endTime":2031.899,"body":"day at the weekend or school holidays."},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":2032.1999999999998,"endTime":2038.175,"body":"We always offer slots outside of school time, so we're obviously not asking children to, miss school for this. So they come in."},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":2038.175,"endTime":2042.655,"body":"We'll give some questionnaires to the parent asking a bit about their child's behaviour and their"},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":2042.655,"endTime":2046.105,"body":"background, and the child will do some very simple computer games."},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":2046.105,"endTime":2047.52,"body":"We always call them computer games."},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":2047.52,"endTime":2050.96,"body":"I think children these days are so used to computer games that they come in and say, this isn't"},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":2050.96,"endTime":2056.205,"body":"a proper game, but it's a sort of gamified, online task and some questionnaires for them to do as well."},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":2056.205,"endTime":2060.285,"body":"And these questionnaires and games are measuring the different types of impulsivity that we've talked about."},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":2060.285,"endTime":2065.55,"body":"So motor impulsivity based on reaction times, how much information do you take into account before"},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":2065.55,"endTime":2067.15,"body":"you make a decision, and so on."},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":2067.15,"endTime":2073.73,"body":"We also offer to children who are interested for them to come and have an MRI scan, which is a a brain scan. It's noninvasive."},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":2073.95,"endTime":2079.845,"body":"It doesn't involve any contrast agents or any, radioactive, substances or anything like that. So it's completely safe."},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":2079.845,"endTime":2082.805,"body":"That takes about 30 minutes, and it's just an optional extra."},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":2082.805,"endTime":2086.68,"body":"If children are interested in that, they can do that part of the study and get a picture of"},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":2086.68,"endTime":2090.279,"body":"their brain to take home, which most of them find quite exciting to do."},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":2090.279,"endTime":2094.585,"body":"If families live locally, we will pay their travel expenses to come into the university, and"},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":2094.585,"endTime":2097.465,"body":"we give the parents a little payment as well for their time."},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":2097.465,"endTime":2100.665,"body":"The children get a certificate, and they get a book about brain."},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":2100.665,"endTime":2105.93,"body":"And in their second session, when we do some games designed to test how their mood affects impulsivity"},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":2106.07,"endTime":2110.47,"body":"as well, they'll have a chance to win a little prize of their choice, so a toy or game or a"},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":2110.47,"endTime":2111.909,"body":"voucher if they're a bit older."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":2111.909,"endTime":2114.645,"body":"And how do people get in touch with you to participate in that?"},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":2114.645,"endTime":2119.465,"body":"So I think you're going to put our contact details, aren't you, in the information that comes with the podcast."},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":2119.93,"endTime":2124.89,"body":"There's, should be an email address and a phone number on there and a link that links to our,"},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":2125.05,"endTime":2127.85,"body":"website where they can see our study flyer with all the information."},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":2127.85,"endTime":2132.555,"body":"So if parents are interested, they can get in touch with us, and we'll, do a quick screening"},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":2132.555,"endTime":2135.515,"body":"on the phone to make sure the child is suitable and then take it from there."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":2135.515,"endTime":2139.0699999999997,"body":"So if you're listening to this, all you need to do now is open up your podcast app."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":2139.0699999999997,"endTime":2143.27,"body":"Look at the episode description, and you'll see all the links and email addresses explaining"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":2143.27,"endTime":2147.21,"body":"how you can participate there in the text underneath the episode description."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":2147.895,"endTime":2152.535,"body":"If you're a teacher or school leader listening to this podcast, what's the best first step you"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":2152.535,"endTime":2157.1949999999997,"body":"can take today to help a people in your class who's struggling with their impulsivity?"},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":2157.7599999999998,"endTime":2160.9,"body":"Yeah. I would say recognizing the impulsivity is a habit."},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":2161.04,"endTime":2164.295,"body":"So you don't want to train children to have the wrong habit."},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":2164.375,"endTime":2167.495,"body":"So thinking about what is likely to trigger a child to be impulsive."},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":2167.495,"endTime":2169.835,"body":"And as you said, that's gonna be different for every child."},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":2170.1349999999998,"endTime":2174.79,"body":"Trying to remove opportunities for them to make decisions that they're going to later regret."},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":2174.79,"endTime":2178.33,"body":"And this is things like, you know, having clear routines, having clear consequences."},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":2178.63,"endTime":2182.575,"body":"It sounds really obvious, but if a child doesn't actually know what the consequences of their"},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":2182.575,"endTime":2186.1749999999997,"body":"behaviour are going to be, then they can't plan ahead because they don't know what's going to happen."},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":2186.1749999999997,"endTime":2190.419,"body":"So it's important that children do know how you're going to react to different kinds of behaviour"},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":2190.419,"endTime":2192.199,"body":"so they can take that into account."},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":2192.2599999999998,"endTime":2196.58,"body":"And I think something that's really helpful for situations where children do have to make decisions."},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":2196.58,"endTime":2200.005,"body":"So it's not just sort of their habitual normal behaviour, but they've got to make a decision"},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":2200.005,"endTime":2204.185,"body":"about something at school, you know, how to react to a child being mean to them or something."},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":2204.4049999999997,"endTime":2208.985,"body":"It can be really helpful to rehearse in advance with that child how they're going to respond"},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":2209.2,"endTime":2212.72,"body":"Because we know that when people are put on the spot and asked to make a decision, it's much"},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":2212.72,"endTime":2216.88,"body":"easier for them to make a thoughtful decision if they've rehearsed a little bit mentally how"},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":2216.88,"endTime":2218.9449999999997,"body":"they're going to react to that situation."},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":2219.565,"endTime":2223.005,"body":"So that might in the classroom, that might look like a teacher having a conversation with a"},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":2223.005,"endTime":2228.2,"body":"child about if Josh says something mean to you in the playground or this child takes your toy away."},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":2228.2,"endTime":2229.64,"body":"How are you going to respond to that?"},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":2229.64,"endTime":2231.48,"body":"And actually have the child rehearse a little bit."},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":2231.48,"endTime":2234.9049999999997,"body":"You know, I'm going to take a deep breath, and I'm going to walk away, and I'm going to fetch"},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":2234.9049999999997,"endTime":2238.985,"body":"a teacher rather than reacting badly and hitting him or yelling, this kind of thing."},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":2238.985,"endTime":2242.83,"body":"It's just really helpful, I think, for children to have those conversations so that they know"},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":2242.83,"endTime":2244.0499999999997,"body":"how they're going to respond."},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":2244.27,"endTime":2245.79,"body":"And sometimes they won't manage to."},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":2245.79,"endTime":2247.89,"body":"Sometimes they'll just be too wound up in the situation."},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":2247.95,"endTime":2252.065,"body":"And and like Stephane mentioned earlier, then you try not to focus too much on the negative."},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":2252.065,"endTime":2255.605,"body":"You reward them when they have done well and focus on when they have done the right thing."},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":2255.665,"endTime":2259.79,"body":"But having those sort of almost pre prepared scripts so that the child has a plan for what to"},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":2259.79,"endTime":2262.37,"body":"do when things go wrong, that is really helpful."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":2262.43,"endTime":2266.43,"body":"That's really helpful practical advice for, everyone listening out there, I'm sure."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":2266.43,"endTime":2269.105,"body":"And finally, we ask this of all our listeners."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":2269.245,"endTime":2273.4049999999997,"body":"Who is the key figure that's influenced you, or what is the key book that you've read that's"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":2273.4049999999997,"endTime":2277.91,"body":"had the biggest impact on your approach to working with kids?"},{"speaker":"Stephane De Brito","startTime":2278.13,"endTime":2283.19,"body":"Personally, there's lots of scientists in this field of work that have been really influential,"},{"speaker":"Stephane De Brito","startTime":2283.25,"endTime":2286.9449999999997,"body":"but I would say one in particular is Dante Cicchetti."},{"speaker":"Stephane De Brito","startTime":2287.565,"endTime":2295.87,"body":"He's a psychologist in the United States and has developed this, what we call the developmental psychopathology approach."},{"speaker":"Stephane De Brito","startTime":2296.17,"endTime":2303.485,"body":"It's really a way of understanding how biological, emotional, cognitive, relational, and also"},{"speaker":"Stephane De Brito","startTime":2303.545,"endTime":2312.199,"body":"unconscious processes, how they interact together to lead to psychopathology or maladaptive behaviour."},{"speaker":"Stephane De Brito","startTime":2312.27,"endTime":2319.775,"body":"And it's really this approach to really look at the child in a holistic way, thinking about"},{"speaker":"Stephane De Brito","startTime":2319.775,"endTime":2325.055,"body":"the emotional, the cognitive, the relational aspect, but also unconscious processes and how"},{"speaker":"Stephane De Brito","startTime":2325.055,"endTime":2328.31,"body":"they might interact to create different outcome."},{"speaker":"Stephane De Brito","startTime":2328.5299999999997,"endTime":2336.625,"body":"Because we know, for example, that children who have experienced adversity, some of them will develop anxiety, mood disorders."},{"speaker":"Stephane De Brito","startTime":2337.084,"endTime":2340.544,"body":"Others might develop more like externalizing problems."},{"speaker":"Stephane De Brito","startTime":2340.9249999999997,"endTime":2345.74,"body":"Others will have a combination of those kind of problems, internalizing, externalizing."},{"speaker":"Stephane De Brito","startTime":2346.439,"endTime":2349.18,"body":"And also some children will actually be resilient."},{"speaker":"Stephane De Brito","startTime":2349.48,"endTime":2357.1549999999997,"body":"So this approach is really, really important and has been really instrumental in understanding these different outcomes."},{"speaker":"Stephane De Brito","startTime":2357.2149999999997,"endTime":2364.08,"body":"And I think one of the aspects of this developmental psychopathology approach is really focusing"},{"speaker":"Stephane De Brito","startTime":2364.22,"endTime":2369.04,"body":"on developmental processes that are both reciprocal and transactional."},{"speaker":"Stephane De Brito","startTime":2369.665,"endTime":2377.845,"body":"So what we mean by that is if you look at the child factors, their aspects, they will influence the environment."},{"speaker":"Stephane De Brito","startTime":2378.15,"endTime":2381.85,"body":"And the environment will respond to that and influence the child."},{"speaker":"Stephane De Brito","startTime":2382.0699999999997,"endTime":2387.209,"body":"So basically, it's gonna be a reciprocal kind of influence, the child and the environment."},{"speaker":"Stephane De Brito","startTime":2387.495,"endTime":2391.835,"body":"And those influences change the child as well as their environment."},{"speaker":"Stephane De Brito","startTime":2392.2149999999997,"endTime":2398.52,"body":"So if you think about the child who has ADHD, who is very impulsive, they will be very difficult to parent."},{"speaker":"Stephane De Brito","startTime":2398.52,"endTime":2401.98,"body":"They will be very difficult to work with in a school setting."},{"speaker":"Stephane De Brito","startTime":2402.12,"endTime":2407.9449999999997,"body":"So the child, their characteristic will influence the environment, but the environment will respond to that child."},{"speaker":"Stephane De Brito","startTime":2408.165,"endTime":2410.985,"body":"And that will also shape how the child will respond."},{"speaker":"Stephane De Brito","startTime":2411.365,"endTime":2418.89,"body":"So this approach that Dante Cicchetti has developed has a number of these kind of key core aspects"},{"speaker":"Stephane De Brito","startTime":2419.35,"endTime":2424.955,"body":"that has really helped us tremendously in understanding these kind of transactional processes"},{"speaker":"Stephane De Brito","startTime":2425.095,"endTime":2426.6349999999998,"body":"between the child and the environment."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":2427.015,"endTime":2430.615,"body":"Sounds like an important framework for understanding why children do the things they do."},{"speaker":"Stephane De Brito","startTime":2430.615,"endTime":2437.35,"body":"Yeah. And how we respond to them and, how that might in turn influence them and, you know, contribute"},{"speaker":"Stephane De Brito","startTime":2437.41,"endTime":2444.665,"body":"to sometimes kind of cycle that become really entrenched and difficult to, to change."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":2444.665,"endTime":2450.17,"body":"I was literally about to say, and around and around it goes. Exactly. Ruth, how about you?"},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":2450.17,"endTime":2455.15,"body":"I think I would mention there's a research psychologist in America called Russell Poldrack,"},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":2455.4649999999997,"endTime":2458.045,"body":"and he does a lot of work not just with, impulsivity."},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":2458.185,"endTime":2461.3849999999998,"body":"He's a sort of looking at decision making and psychology generally."},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":2461.3849999999998,"endTime":2467.38,"body":"But he wrote a book, I think, a couple of years ago called  Hard to Break, where he was looking at how habits develop."},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":2467.44,"endTime":2471.9049999999997,"body":"It's not just about impulsivity, but I think it's quite interesting in this context because"},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":2471.9049999999997,"endTime":2475.745,"body":"he's talking about, the brain and he's talking about the different systems of memory."},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":2475.745,"endTime":2481.0699999999997,"body":"So our more sort of, like, conscious deliberate memory versus our more habitual system and how"},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":2481.0699999999997,"endTime":2483.23,"body":"these relate to different aspects of our behaviour."},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":2483.23,"endTime":2487.73,"body":"So addiction, for example, is something that's very much based on our habitual memory."},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":2487.855,"endTime":2493.7149999999997,"body":"Whereas making a conscious decision to learn how to do quadratic equations, for example, would be very, very conscious."},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":2493.775,"endTime":2497.95,"body":"And I think it's quite interesting in the context of impulsivity for teachers to think about this."},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":2497.95,"endTime":2503.15,"body":"So one of the things that he mentions in this book, which I like, he says, as far as you can,"},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":2503.15,"endTime":2504.85,"body":"make rules, don't make decisions."},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":2505.1549999999997,"endTime":2509.575,"body":"And I think that nicely encapsulates a lot of what we've talked about today because children"},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":2509.6349999999998,"endTime":2514.08,"body":"or adults for that matter struggle to make good decisions because they're impulsive."},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":2514.08,"endTime":2518.48,"body":"It's really helpful to have a rule that, you know, in this situation, I do this, and and that's"},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":2518.48,"endTime":2519.2799999999997,"body":"the end of the story."},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":2519.2799999999997,"endTime":2523.834,"body":"So you then don't have to to keep using your willpower essentially to just keep making decisions"},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":2523.834,"endTime":2524.7149999999997,"body":"that are difficult for you."},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":2524.7149999999997,"endTime":2529.197,"body":"And I think that's a really nice phrase in a way for teachers to bear in mind when they're thinking"},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":2529.197,"endTime":2533.252,"body":"about the best way to work with these children because it just, yeah, it just sums up everything"},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":2533.252,"endTime":2536.165,"body":"that's gonna make it easier for people to make good decisions."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":2536.305,"endTime":2541.025,"body":"I think there's something that we all can take away there, children and adults, you know, for improving our lives."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":2541.025,"endTime":2544.0099999999998,"body":"Ruth and Stephane, thank you for sharing your expertise on the show."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":2544.0099999999998,"endTime":2546.25,"body":"I really appreciate you, joining us today."},{"speaker":"Ruth Pauli","startTime":2546.25,"endTime":2546.73,"body":"Thank you."},{"speaker":"Stephane De Brito","startTime":2546.73,"endTime":2547.95,"body":"Thank you for having us."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":2548.65,"endTime":2553.1949999999997,"body":"Oh, so that really makes you think about the behaviours from the kids that you're seeing in class"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":2553.755,"endTime":2560.574,"body":"and how they are affected individually by the different forms of impulsivity and how potentially"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":2561.49,"endTime":2567.5699999999997,"body":"more old fashioned play activities might have actively encouraged children to learn to restrain"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":2567.5699999999997,"endTime":2575.955,"body":"their impulses, where more modern ones, I'm thinking screens here, don't coach children in the same way."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":2576.095,"endTime":2581.5,"body":"Yeah. Just think about how many games and apps nowadays are engineered to keep giving kids hits"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":2581.5,"endTime":2586.218,"body":"of dopamine and rewards to keep playing rather than waiting for a reward. Did you remember?"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":2586.218,"endTime":2589.685,"body":"I was in a shop the other day, and I actually saw a pram. Right?"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":2589.685,"endTime":2596.17,"body":"Imagine like a stroller with a strap across the front like a bar to hold a tablet in front of"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":2596.17,"endTime":2601.23,"body":"a baby's face so they didn't even have to look at the real world."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":2601.455,"endTime":2602.975,"body":"That is just shocking, isn't it?"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":2602.975,"endTime":2605.235,"body":"That's a really worrying trend, I think."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":2605.615,"endTime":2610.0099999999998,"body":"And, of course, we should say that if you're working with children with specific conditions"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":2610.15,"endTime":2617.265,"body":"such as autism or ADHD, and there may be an underlying reason at the brain based level why those"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":2617.265,"endTime":2624.725,"body":"children find impulse control difficult, and those students may require a specialized approach to make progress."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":2625.0499999999997,"endTime":2630.49,"body":"And if you're interested in being part of Ruth and Stephane's research,  remember, I have put"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":2630.49,"endTime":2632.49,"body":"direct links in the episode description."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":2632.49,"endTime":2635.705,"body":"If you've enjoyed today's show, remember to rate and review us."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":2635.705,"endTime":2640.825,"body":"Every single review you leave prompts the algorithm to share school behavior secrets with other"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":2640.825,"endTime":2646.159,"body":"listeners helping us get the word out there to other school leaders, parents, and teachers who need this information."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":2646.38,"endTime":2648.219,"body":"And that's all we've got time for today."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":2648.219,"endTime":2653.165,"body":"We do hope that you have a great week, and we can't wait to see you next time on next week's"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":2653.165,"endTime":2656.865,"body":"episode of School Behaviour Secrets. Bye for now."}]}