{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":87.50999999999999,"endTime":95.20899999999999,"body":"There's loads of research out there listing the transformative effects of mindfulness on adults, but have you ever wondered"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":95.445,"endTime":97.205,"body":"if the same is true for children?"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":97.205,"endTime":100.985,"body":"Can mindfulness truly help children struggling with intense emotions?"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":101.445,"endTime":108.42999999999999,"body":"Tune in as we explore the fundamentals of mindfulness and in particular, review the scientific research into its application"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":108.64999999999999,"endTime":115.35499999999999,"body":"and success with children so you can consider its application in your classroom."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":115.41499999999999,"endTime":120.13499999999999,"body":"Welcome to the School Behaviour Secrets podcast. I'm your host, Simon Currigan."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":120.13499999999999,"endTime":126.82999999999998,"body":"My co host is Emma Shackleton, and we're obsessed with helping teachers, school leaders, parents, and, of course, students"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":126.97,"endTime":129.79,"body":"when classroom behaviour gets in the way of success."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":129.929,"endTime":136.075,"body":"We're gonna share the tried and tested secrets to classroom management, behavioural special needs, whole school strategy, and"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":136.075,"endTime":140.17,"body":"more, all with the aim of helping your students reach their true potential."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":140.47,"endTime":146.17,"body":"Plus, we'll be letting you eavesdrop on our conversations with thought leaders from around the world."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":146.31,"endTime":150.995,"body":"So you'll get to hear the latest evidence based strategies before anyone else."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":150.995,"endTime":156.0,"body":"This is the School Behaviour Secrets podcast. Hi there."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":156.0,"endTime":162.8,"body":"Simon Currigan here, and welcome to another essentials episode of School Behaviour Secrets where I share a small excerpt from"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":162.8,"endTime":166.785,"body":"an earlier episode that can have an impact for the students that you work with."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":166.785,"endTime":175.48,"body":"And in this essentials episode, we join my co host Emma Shackleton and I midway through original episode number 64 where we"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":175.48,"endTime":179.18,"body":"considered research into the effectiveness of mindfulness for children."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":179.295,"endTime":185.63400000000001,"body":"But before we begin, I'd like to remind you that if you find this episode interesting or useful, please don't forget to subscribe"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":185.855,"endTime":189.85899999999998,"body":"and tell your friends or colleagues about the School Behaviour Secrets podcast."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":192.88,"endTime":199.83499999999998,"body":"So then when it comes to regulating emotions, mindfulness seems to help by allowing us to surf an emotion."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":199.975,"endTime":208.73,"body":"When we notice anger or anxiety rising, we recognize it and stay with it, labeling it, and then dismissing it and waiting"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":208.73,"endTime":217.155,"body":"for it to pass, rather than not having those emotions at all in the first place, which is the focus of many other practices around strong emotions."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":217.695,"endTime":220.67499999999998,"body":"So we're not actually trying to get rid of those emotions."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":221.215,"endTime":228.14,"body":"We're just trying to notice them, recognize them for what they are, put the accurate label on them, which we know takes the"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":228.14,"endTime":231.42,"body":"sting out of big emotions, and then let them pass."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":231.42,"endTime":235.345,"body":"We don't have to feel an emotion and then immediately act on it."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":235.345,"endTime":236.945,"body":"We're trying to work with that gap."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":236.945,"endTime":244.97899999999998,"body":"It's also been shown in MRI scanners that mindfulness turns off the part of the brain called the posterior cingulate cortex."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":245.51999999999998,"endTime":252.185,"body":"This area of the brain lights up when we are thinking about ourselves, are craving something, or we are daydreaming."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":252.64499999999998,"endTime":259.619,"body":"It could be by shifting the focus away from ourselves helps us to regulate our thoughts and emotions more effectively."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":260.24,"endTime":268.714,"body":"So we're kind of taking a psychological step back from the problem and analyzing this in a less personal, more detached way."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":269.015,"endTime":273.095,"body":"So does this work in practice with children? What does the evidence say?"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":273.095,"endTime":279.74,"body":"Well, let's think about how mindfulness might impact on positive outlook first and kids' life satisfaction."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":280.36,"endTime":286.495,"body":"There was a really interesting study in 2020 that looked at the effectiveness of mindfulness training for 9 10 year olds."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":286.495,"endTime":294.16999999999996,"body":"So this was a 6 week program, so it was a sustained program and involved a 108 children, half of which were given a mindfulness"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":294.31,"endTime":297.37,"body":"program as part of their normal curriculum entitlement."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":297.66999999999996,"endTime":301.905,"body":"And the other half just carried on, you know, doing their normal work that they would do at that time."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":301.96500000000003,"endTime":311.29999999999995,"body":"Compared to the control groups, the researchers found that children in the mindfulness group did show significant improvements in positive outlook and life satisfaction."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":311.68,"endTime":315.94,"body":"And the majority of the children also said as a side benefit that they enjoyed the sessions."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":316.16499999999996,"endTime":322.005,"body":"And when researchers asked children the question, do you feel you are now living with more friendliness towards yourself and"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":322.005,"endTime":331.03,"body":"others, over half, 55%, said yes. 43% said that they didn't know. And those effects weren't just immediate."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":331.645,"endTime":340.36,"body":"They persisted when the researchers followed up with the students, although they did find that the effects of that mindfulness intervention did fade over time."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":340.36,"endTime":343.32,"body":"Now this is a reasonably sized study of a group of mainstream children."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":343.32,"endTime":348.08500000000004,"body":"We're talking about a 100 kids, but it did rely on children self reporting accurately."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":348.30499999999995,"endTime":355.60900000000004,"body":"And we do have to question about how effective, how well those children were able to answer those questions."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":355.669,"endTime":360.80999999999995,"body":"It requires a certain amount of self knowledge that they may or may not been able to access consistently."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":361.59000000000003,"endTime":368.80499999999995,"body":"What it proved was that for a small group of kids, just 64, received the mindfulness intervention in the end, 30 could have a positive impact."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":368.80499999999995,"endTime":371.525,"body":"And I'm not saying that's a bad thing. Those signs are positive."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":371.525,"endTime":379.42999999999995,"body":"But is a sample of 64 children, are they going to be representative of children as a whole when we scale up these kind of interventions?"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":379.42999999999995,"endTime":382.33500000000004,"body":"So it's a positive study, but it was a small study."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":383.355,"endTime":387.375,"body":"Okay. So let's look at the effects of mindfulness and emotional well-being."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":387.83500000000004,"endTime":396.97,"body":"Another study back in 2,005 looks at the impact of mixing mindfulness and relaxation techniques with 5 to 8 year olds."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":397.509,"endTime":403.895,"body":"This time, the sessions ran for 12 sessions, and each of those sessions was 45 minutes long."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":404.355,"endTime":411.38,"body":"Now the biggest impact of this research was that on children's ability to make conscious choices of what to pay attention"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":411.38,"endTime":415.08000000000004,"body":"to and the students' experience of test anxiety."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":415.93999999999994,"endTime":420.765,"body":"However, the ability to sustain attention was weaker, though still measurable."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":421.30499999999995,"endTime":430.16999999999996,"body":"So while kids were better at focusing their thoughts intentionally after the intervention, mindfulness was less good at helping"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":430.16999999999996,"endTime":432.97,"body":"them stay focused over a period of time."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":432.97,"endTime":440.83500000000004,"body":"There was a separate study in 2010 that found the inner kids mindfulness training program was particularly effective at promoting"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":440.83500000000004,"endTime":444.95000000000005,"body":"self regulation for kids who found this difficult to start with."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":444.95000000000005,"endTime":447.53,"body":"So this isn't just a sample of kids from mainstream."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":447.99,"endTime":452.16999999999996,"body":"These are children who already had difficulty with emotional regulation."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":452.355,"endTime":459.57500000000005,"body":"And the authors wrote that these children in particular showed significant improvements in their ability to regulate their emotions."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":459.66999999999996,"endTime":467.18999999999994,"body":"For kids with average or above average regulation already, researchers didn't find any significant impact."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":467.18999999999994,"endTime":474.18499999999995,"body":"So this study shows that mindfulness was helpful teaching kids regulation skills if they didn't have them already."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":474.18499999999995,"endTime":478.18999999999994,"body":"It was of less benefit to kids who already had those skills."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":478.25,"endTime":487.21500000000003,"body":"However, although promising, again, this study was small scale, only working with 64 children, and many of those didn't get the mindfulness."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":487.275,"endTime":488.635,"body":"They were placed in a control group."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":488.635,"endTime":492.015,"body":"So, again, we've got a study with a very small number of kids."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":492.235,"endTime":497.26,"body":"Then we have to ask ourselves, would that scale out to larger numbers of pupils?"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":497.639,"endTime":501.47900000000004,"body":"And there are many other small scale trials out there that have found some impact."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":501.47900000000004,"endTime":507.93499999999995,"body":"It's been shown that mindfulness can, in italics, have an impact on optimism and positive emotions."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":508.31499999999994,"endTime":512.495,"body":"It can help with an improvement in social and emotional competence."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":512.81,"endTime":520.59,"body":"It can cause decreases in aggression, can decrease in oppositional behavior in the classroom, can cause improvements in motivation,"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":520.914,"endTime":525.574,"body":"can cause improvements in calm and self acceptance, can lead to reductions in depression anxiety."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":525.954,"endTime":532.76,"body":"But, again, when you dig into the details of all of these studies, they are often small in scale."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":533.299,"endTime":540.625,"body":"One study measured the impact on just 24 students and another on 2 classes of children, another on 64 children."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":540.625,"endTime":549.139,"body":"So we do have to look at the whether the results of these studies are scalable because the numbers of children involved are too small."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":549.139,"endTime":555.239,"body":"Is it just that we're finding a small group of children for whom this intervention happened to be impactful?"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":555.46,"endTime":559.265,"body":"It just happened to work for them. Was it a statistical fluke?"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":559.644,"endTime":566.225,"body":"Or when we take this out to wider numbers of children in the 100 and 1,000, is it still going to have the same difference?"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":566.609,"endTime":575.67,"body":"So I guess what you're saying there that although there are some positive indicators, size really does matter because it tells us whether the research is scalable."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":576.305,"endTime":580.725,"body":"And social science and educational research has a big issue around scalability."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":581.505,"endTime":590.04,"body":"What we mean by that is just because something works with 64 kids doesn't mean it will work with a 1000 kids or a 100000 kids."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":590.5,"endTime":599.005,"body":"Perhaps there was something particular about the demographics or the backgrounds of that small sample in that particular school that was relevant to the research."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":600.025,"endTime":603.885,"body":"Many trials are run by researchers who care about the outcome."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":604.35,"endTime":612.69,"body":"So often, the programs are delivered by experts who can provide a much better quality of teaching than, say, an average teacher"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":612.825,"endTime":619.085,"body":"who's got no particular expertise in teaching mindfulness. And those experts are enthusiastic."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":619.544,"endTime":624.95,"body":"They care about the program doing well, and they're likely to invest time and effort in preparation."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":626.37,"endTime":630.87,"body":"Small trials might not be measuring whether mindfulness is effective."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":631.335,"endTime":637.835,"body":"Particularly, they might be measuring the effectiveness and enthusiasm of the person delivering the program."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":641.25,"endTime":648.825,"body":"And if you would like to hear the original episode, simply click the link at the bottom of the episode description to head back to episode number 64."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":648.965,"endTime":655.94,"body":"If you found today's episode helpful, please spare a moment to rate and review as it only takes 30 seconds, then your feedback"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":655.94,"endTime":662.6,"body":"will help boost School Behaviour Secrets to reach more listeners. Let's keep this community building together."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":662.885,"endTime":667.225,"body":"Thanks for tuning in today and I look forward to seeing you next time on School Behaviour Secrets."}]}