{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":87.42999999999999,"endTime":91.61,"body":"Are you working with a pupil who just won't complete their work?"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":91.99,"endTime":98.485,"body":"Then it's time to start thinking about what could be behind their reluctance. Maybe they're feeling overwhelmed."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":98.625,"endTime":102.32499999999999,"body":"Maybe they don't understand the task, or maybe they're just tired."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":102.625,"endTime":110.27,"body":"As teachers, deciphering these signals is crucial to offering effective support in getting them beyond that task avoidance."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":110.41,"endTime":116.07499999999999,"body":"Join us for this episode of School Behaviour Secrets as we explore work refusal in the classroom."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":116.375,"endTime":126.07999999999998,"body":"From understanding the signs to identifying the underlying reasons, we'll equip you with actionable strategies to support your students effectively. Let's dive in."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":126.38,"endTime":131.54399999999998,"body":"Welcome to the School Behaviour Secrets podcast. I'm your host, Simon Currigan."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":131.66,"endTime":138.375,"body":"My co host is Emma Shackleton, and we're obsessed with helping teachers, school leaders, parents, and, of course, students"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":138.375,"endTime":141.355,"body":"when classroom behaviour gets in the way of success."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":141.415,"endTime":147.589,"body":"We're gonna share the tried and tested secrets to classroom management, behavioural special needs, whole school strategy, and"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":147.589,"endTime":151.704,"body":"more, all with the aim of helping your students reach their true potential."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":152.005,"endTime":157.785,"body":"Plus, we'll be letting you eavesdrop on our conversations with thought leaders from around the world."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":157.844,"endTime":162.51999999999998,"body":"So you'll get to hear the latest evidence based strategies before anyone else."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":162.579,"endTime":167.165,"body":"This is the School Behaviour Secrets podcast. Hi there."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":167.165,"endTime":173.245,"body":"Simon Currigan here, and I'm back today to share with you another mini essentials episode of School Behaviour Secrets where"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":173.245,"endTime":180.53,"body":"we share key strategies and insights from an earlier episode that can have an immediate impact on the students that you work with."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":180.53,"endTime":189.175,"body":"In this essentials episode, my co host, Emma Shackleton, and I share proactive strategies that you can trial to try to reduce"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":189.39499999999998,"endTime":192.035,"body":"incidence of work refusal in your classroom."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":192.035,"endTime":195.48,"body":"We join the original episode about 11 minutes into the conversation."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":195.85899999999998,"endTime":202.74,"body":"But before we press play on that, can I just remind you that if you find this episode interesting or useful, please don't"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":202.74,"endTime":209.426,"body":"forget to subscribe and share this with your friends and colleagues on your social media so they can find out about the School"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":209.426,"endTime":215.32,"body":"Behaviour Secrets podcast, and we can continue to grow the show? I already appreciate you doing that."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":215.54,"endTime":218.44,"body":"And now here's my conversation with Emma."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":220.945,"endTime":228.165,"body":"So it's really important then that we dig into the causes to make sure that we can then match up the right solutions."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":229.01,"endTime":237.97,"body":"If we approach all task avoidance and work refusal in the same way, we might end up using the wrong strategies for the wrong cause."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":237.97,"endTime":243.60399999999998,"body":"Yeah. I think one thing I've noticed over the years as well, that there are 3 things that have to be in place for kids to be successful in the classroom."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":243.664,"endTime":246.339,"body":"The first is they have to be sort of happy and secure."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":246.559,"endTime":248.64,"body":"The second is they have to feel confident with the work."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":248.64,"endTime":250.16,"body":"They have to know what they're doing."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":250.16,"endTime":254.135,"body":"And the third is they have to be emotionally calm. It's like a 3 legged stool."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":254.135,"endTime":258.775,"body":"And if any one of those legs are missing, then you get problems in the classroom with behaviour and avoidance."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":258.775,"endTime":261.73,"body":"And in this case, what we're doing is we're taking away 2 of those legs."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":261.81,"endTime":267.40999999999997,"body":"So let's think about supporting kids who are moving away from failure, kids with self esteem or low resilience issues."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":267.40999999999997,"endTime":273.445,"body":"There was a a school of thinking for a long time, and I've been guilty of this, is a very seductive idea that's presented"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":273.445,"endTime":280.32399999999996,"body":"to us in the media that if you have someone who's having difficulty, who has low self esteem, low confidence, the way we get"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":280.32399999999996,"endTime":286.47,"body":"them past that barrier to do difficult things is to give them some sort of speech that puts a fire in their belly."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":286.47,"endTime":292.83500000000004,"body":"So you often see in films, there's a coach or a mentor and there's the hero who is like, they haven't found their confidence yet."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":292.83500000000004,"endTime":298.82,"body":"And there'll be a a montage, a training sequence where the mentor builds them up speeches and that they be suddenly become"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":298.82,"endTime":300.74,"body":"able to do things they weren't able to do in the past."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":300.74,"endTime":304.28,"body":"That's a really seductive idea and it turns out it's complete nonsense."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":304.34000000000003,"endTime":310.225,"body":"What the research shows is we don't start with confidence, and that encourages us to take action."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":310.365,"endTime":314.28499999999997,"body":"Actually, what improves confidence is taking action first."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":314.28499999999997,"endTime":319.709,"body":"That builds our confidence, which encourages us to take risks and do more difficult things."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":319.709,"endTime":328.095,"body":"And when we achieve those, that increases our confidence again, and that encourages us to try even more difficult things. It's called the confidence competence loop."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":328.095,"endTime":329.555,"body":"So what does that mean in school?"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":329.615,"endTime":335.02,"body":"Well, that means what we're not going to have success with is telling the child that they've managed a piece of work like"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":335.02,"endTime":337.1,"body":"this in the past or they can do it."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":337.1,"endTime":338.72,"body":"They just have to believe in themselves."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":339.1,"endTime":344.525,"body":"What we need to do is get them working on something today that they feel confident doing already."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":344.525,"endTime":354.65999999999997,"body":"Now this might be a piece of work that's well within their zone of competence, but there is value on being on task. There is value on working independently."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":355.28,"endTime":362.43499999999995,"body":"There is value on completing work and creating the sense of pride and achievement even if it's things you can do already."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":363.05499999999995,"endTime":369.53999999999996,"body":"So the way we're going to help get them past these worry issues is by getting them working on something."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":369.67999999999995,"endTime":373.62,"body":"That action taking, the research shows, will increase their confidence."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":373.98400000000004,"endTime":377.10400000000004,"body":"So over time, then we can present slightly more difficult things."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":377.10400000000004,"endTime":381.20399999999995,"body":"We get them to experience success with that. That increases their confidence."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":381.345,"endTime":389.22900000000004,"body":"So getting past these self esteem and resilience issues is about getting them to take action rather than firing them up with confidence."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":389.44899999999996,"endTime":393.765,"body":"Another point to make here that I think is really worthwhile is about differentiation, how we pitch the work."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":393.765,"endTime":397.145,"body":"Sometimes I speak to teachers and they say, I've looked at the child's assessments."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":397.20500000000004,"endTime":403.83000000000004,"body":"I've looked at what they've been able to achieve in the past, and the work on the table is accurately differentiated for them."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":403.83000000000004,"endTime":410.28499999999997,"body":"Now that may be true, but that is different from the child perceiving they can complete and do the work."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":410.28499999999997,"endTime":416.93999999999994,"body":"So when we're looking at improving confidence and getting them to take action, we have to be pitching the work not at a level"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":416.93999999999994,"endTime":423.71500000000003,"body":"that is accurate in terms of their academic ability, but we might have to pitch the work slightly lower than that, that's within"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":423.71500000000003,"endTime":427.71500000000003,"body":"the child's perception of what they're able to complete and be successful with."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":427.71500000000003,"endTime":432.9,"body":"And then over time, as we've got them taking action, we can gradually increase the difficulty of the work."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":432.97900000000004,"endTime":442.19899999999996,"body":"So what do we do then about those children who are moving towards perfection and their anxieties around whatever they produce"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":442.259,"endTime":445.625,"body":"having to be absolutely a 100% accurate."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":446.005,"endTime":449.92499999999995,"body":"And again, perfection is a perception, isn't it?"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":449.92499999999995,"endTime":455.539,"body":"What the teacher might think is perfect and what the child might think is perfect could be 2 really different things."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":455.539,"endTime":457.799,"body":"So that's interesting to note as well."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":458.1,"endTime":466.20399999999995,"body":"But when children are very worried or anxious about starting a piece of work because they don't think they can finish it to"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":466.20399999999995,"endTime":475.28999999999996,"body":"what they perceive to be perfect, What they're actually doing there is overestimating the consequences of what will happen"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":475.35,"endTime":477.92999999999995,"body":"if the work doesn't turn out perfect."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":478.29499999999996,"endTime":486.635,"body":"So they're kind of catastrophizing the outcome of that piece of work not being absolutely spot on."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":486.92999999999995,"endTime":495.42999999999995,"body":"Because really, what is going to happen if the work isn't absolutely perfect? The world isn't going to end. It's not going to stop turning."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":495.674,"endTime":500.79499999999996,"body":"But for that child, it feels like a really, really big deal."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":500.79499999999996,"endTime":509.65999999999997,"body":"Or it could be that they are underestimating their ability to cope with the feelings that they get if the work isn't perfect."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":510.03999999999996,"endTime":517.725,"body":"That feeling of disappointment, a feeling of letting other people down, letting your self down, embarrassment, humiliation,"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":518.905,"endTime":522.364,"body":"they are all normal healthy feelings that people have sometimes."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":522.64,"endTime":531.225,"body":"But some children feel very vulnerable, and they would rather avoid having to experience those uncomfortable feelings by work"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":531.225,"endTime":534.205,"body":"refusal or task avoidance in the first place."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":534.425,"endTime":540.09,"body":"So we need to use questions to help promote more realistic thinking about the work."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":540.41,"endTime":549.175,"body":"So one really good strategy here is to ask, if you were to get this work wrong, how would you cope?"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":549.415,"endTime":558.57,"body":"What that question does is prompts the child to accept the possibility that the child is concerned about, but opens up a conversation"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":558.95,"endTime":561.53,"body":"about it not being the end of the world."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":561.67,"endTime":568.445,"body":"So, yes, it is likely that the work might not be a 100% correct or a 100% perfect."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":568.824,"endTime":571.785,"body":"And how then are you going to handle that?"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":571.785,"endTime":575.65,"body":"And this is like coaching really through those difficult feelings, isn't it?"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":575.81,"endTime":583.65,"body":"If the work isn't perfect or if you don't feel like it's perfect when you finished it, what are you going to do to manage"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":583.65,"endTime":586.685,"body":"those strong emotions that will be evoked?"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":586.905,"endTime":588.925,"body":"Because it's not the end of the world."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":588.985,"endTime":596.27,"body":"Another good thing to get things into perspective is thinking, you know, in the moment, it feels like the end of the world."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":596.41,"endTime":603.63,"body":"But another good question is, will this matter next week? Will this matter in 3 weeks?"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":603.895,"endTime":606.395,"body":"Will this matter in a year's time?"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":606.615,"endTime":611.1750000000001,"body":"Will this matter in 5 years' time? Usually, the answer is no."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":611.1750000000001,"endTime":620.25,"body":"And helping the child to get perspective might help them to be able to reduce their fear of making mistakes and be more open"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":620.25,"endTime":625.0550000000001,"body":"to having a go at the work and and recognizing that everybody does make mistakes sometimes."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":625.4350000000001,"endTime":634.07,"body":"Another way you can explore this with children who are worried about perfectionism is exploring, having them make deliberate mistakes with their works."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":634.07,"endTime":639.51,"body":"What you do is you get an anxiety scale, which is just a scale from 1 to 10, like a number line, where 10 means that they're"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":639.51,"endTime":643.995,"body":"very, very anxious, very, very worried. 1 means that they don't feel worried at all."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":643.995,"endTime":645.9150000000001,"body":"They're perfectly calm. 5 is kind of in the middle."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":645.9150000000001,"endTime":652.59,"body":"And you get them to predict how making a deliberate mistake with their work, a mistake that they are perfectly in control"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":652.59,"endTime":658.125,"body":"of, that they're choosing when they make it, they're choosing how they made that mistake, how will that make them feel when"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":658.125,"endTime":659.885,"body":"they do it, when they gauge with the work?"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":659.885,"endTime":661.005,"body":"So they're gonna do a piece of work."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":661.005,"endTime":663.025,"body":"At some point, they're gonna make a deliberate mistake."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":663.299,"endTime":667.14,"body":"How will you feel when you make that mistake or when you hand in the work?"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":667.14,"endTime":670.725,"body":"And then they go away and complete the work, and they make their deliberate mistake."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":670.725,"endTime":676.085,"body":"And then they go back to their anxiety scale afterwards, and they say how it actually made them feel."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":676.085,"endTime":683.1,"body":"You you got a prediction of before I do the task, this is how I predict it's going to make me feel, which might be, say, a 7 or a 8."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":683.1,"endTime":688.379,"body":"And then after they've done it and they do their review, they might then say, well, actually, you know, that wasn't too bad."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":688.379,"endTime":690.9250000000001,"body":"That was actually a 6 or a 5."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":690.9250000000001,"endTime":698.124,"body":"In some cases, the teacher might have to agree, say, not to mark the mistake to encourage them to experiment, or they get"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":698.124,"endTime":701.58,"body":"the option to do the mistake in pencil. They can hand the book in."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":701.58,"endTime":706.46,"body":"They can write on their anxiety scale how they feel now, and then we agree to rub it out afterwards."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":706.46,"endTime":709.114,"body":"We might have to take baby steps towards making that mistake."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":709.114,"endTime":713.934,"body":"And then we ask them questions like, was making the mistake as bad as you thought it would be?"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":714.155,"endTime":718.39,"body":"And what were the consequences for making that mistake? Did anything bad happen?"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":718.45,"endTime":721.49,"body":"And were you able to cope with handing that book in?"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":721.49,"endTime":727.655,"body":"And remember, being able to cope and being able to manage an anxiety is different from feeling happy."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":729.554,"endTime":736.87,"body":"And if you'd like to hear more from the original podcast where we explore in more detail about what work refusal may look"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":736.87,"endTime":745.215,"body":"like and the possible causes behind it, simply click the link at the bottom of the episode description to head back to original episode number 75."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":745.355,"endTime":749.7900000000001,"body":"Definitely worth a listen if if this is something you're seeing in your classroom right now."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":749.87,"endTime":756.4300000000001,"body":"If today's episode has left you inspired, energized, or even just a little intrigued, we'd love to hear from you."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":756.4300000000001,"endTime":765.294,"body":"Your feedback fuels the fire behind school behavior secrets, propelling us to new heights and reaching even more listeners. So don't hold back."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":765.294,"endTime":769.34,"body":"Take just 30 seconds to rate and review us on your podcast app."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":769.34,"endTime":775.085,"body":"Thanks for joining me today, and get ready for more educational insights next time on School Behaviour"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":779.785,"endTime":780.285,"body":"Secrets."}]}