{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":87.35,"endTime":92.47,"body":"Are you seeing more pupils with a history of trauma in your school or classroom and their behaviour"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":92.47,"endTime":96.00999999999999,"body":"is heightened, unpredictable, and difficult to manage safely?"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":96.705,"endTime":98.30499999999999,"body":"Then you're not on your own."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":98.30499999999999,"endTime":103.024,"body":"And definitely keep listening because we're going to give you a relationship based simple step"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":103.024,"endTime":110.33999999999999,"body":"by step framework you can use to respond to their behavior that's been proven to work in classrooms around the world."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":110.88,"endTime":113.935,"body":"Welcome to the School Behaviour Secrets podcast."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":113.994,"endTime":115.514,"body":"I'm your host, Simon Currigan."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":115.514,"endTime":121.05,"body":"My cohost is Emma Shackleton, and we're obsessed with helping teachers, school leaders, parents,"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":121.05,"endTime":125.14999999999999,"body":"and of course students when classroom behaviour gets in the way of success."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":125.28999999999999,"endTime":130.105,"body":"We're gonna share the tried and tested secrets to classroom management, behavioural special needs,"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":130.105,"endTime":136.265,"body":"whole school strategy, and more, all with the aim of helping your students reach their true potential. Plus, we'll"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":136.505,"endTime":141.55,"body":"be letting you eavesdrop on our conversations with thought leaders from around the world."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":141.69,"endTime":146.35,"body":"So you'll get to hear the latest evidence based strategies before anyone else."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":146.41,"endTime":149.39,"body":"This is the School Behaviour Secrets podcast."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":150.255,"endTime":152.735,"body":"Welcome to this week's episode of School Behaviour Secrets."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":152.735,"endTime":154.035,"body":"My name is Simon Currigan."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":154.415,"endTime":157.055,"body":"Sit yourself down and make yourself welcome."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":157.055,"endTime":162.6,"body":"Before we get on with the behaviour stuff, I just wanted to share some geographical Atlas related"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":162.6,"endTime":164.7,"body":"news that I've got or ambition really."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":164.76,"endTime":170.274,"body":"I live not far away from a place called Kingdick's Hole. True story."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":170.73399999999998,"endTime":172.515,"body":"And I can't wait to visit."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":172.73399999999998,"endTime":177.57999999999998,"body":"Also, my hit list are Bellend in Dudley and Fanny Hands in Lincolnshire."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":178.12,"endTime":180.2,"body":"No. I'm not going down this rabbit hole."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":180.2,"endTime":183.07999999999998,"body":"I'm joined today by my co host, Emma Shackleton. Hi, Emma."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":183.07999999999998,"endTime":184.45999999999998,"body":"Those are all real place names."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":184.51999999999998,"endTime":186.3,"body":"Time to sneak in a quick question."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":186.46499999999997,"endTime":187.605,"body":"Is it family friendly?"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":188.70499999999998,"endTime":197.35,"body":"Absolutely. According to a teacher tap survey in 2023, what percentage of teachers said they"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":197.35,"endTime":202.41,"body":"felt that their leadership team listened to them most of the time?"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":202.70999999999998,"endTime":208.685,"body":"Okay. So teachers who feel listened to by their leadership team, I would like to think that"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":208.685,"endTime":212.98,"body":"this is fairly high. 65%. Go on."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":212.98,"endTime":214.44,"body":"What did the survey say?"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":214.5,"endTime":216.68,"body":"Alright. You're a bit of an optimist on this one."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":216.82,"endTime":220.73499999999999,"body":"The answer was 44 percent."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":220.795,"endTime":223.135,"body":"I'm not sure whether that's high or low, really."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":223.435,"endTime":230.0,"body":"It didn't give a breakdown of the 65%, but that still leaves a lot of teachers out there who"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":230.0,"endTime":234.95499999999998,"body":"feel like their input isn't valued or aren't sure whether their voice is being heard."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":235.755,"endTime":237.695,"body":"Okay. Why did you ask about that?"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":237.755,"endTime":242.89499999999998,"body":"Because today, we're gonna explore using an approach to managing confrontations with students"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":243.32,"endTime":246.29999999999998,"body":"and challenging behavior known as PACE."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":246.91899999999998,"endTime":253.415,"body":"And PACE is all about building empathy and relationships with students so they're more able"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":253.415,"endTime":258.695,"body":"to reflect on their own behaviour and emotions and make social and emotional gains from there."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":258.695,"endTime":264.83,"body":"It's literally the opposite of jumping into an incident and talking about expectations of what"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":264.83,"endTime":266.21000000000004,"body":"rules the child has broken."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":266.35,"endTime":275.445,"body":"It's not about removing boundaries and limits, but its goal is the same as traditional approaches to managing behaviour."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":275.445,"endTime":282.29999999999995,"body":"So it's about helping kids regulate and for them to know what happened during an incident from"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":282.29999999999995,"endTime":288.305,"body":"different perspectives, why it happened, and coach them to function successfully in school."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":288.365,"endTime":292.78499999999997,"body":"Oh, that sounds good. But before we get to that, a quick reminder to our listeners."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":293.16499999999996,"endTime":297.07,"body":"If you haven't done so already, please do subscribe to the show."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":297.07,"endTime":303.07,"body":"Subscribing makes it easy to hear future episodes, and it prompts the algorithm to share school"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":303.07,"endTime":306.995,"body":"behavior secrets with other teachers, school leaders, and parents."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":307.53499999999997,"endTime":313.555,"body":"Sharing the information with the people who need it most helps us to grow the show. It's a win win."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":313.93,"endTime":318.80899999999997,"body":"And, right, I don't know if we've mentioned this before, but if you're working with pupils who"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":318.80899999999997,"endTime":323.995,"body":"are presenting challenging behaviour and you don't know why they're acting the way they are and"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":323.995,"endTime":329.994,"body":"you want to help them by digging into the root causes of that behaviour, we've got a free download"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":329.994,"endTime":332.40999999999997,"body":"that can help called the SEND Handbook."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":332.54999999999995,"endTime":337.13,"body":"The handbook is a simple tool for linking the behaviours that you see in class with possible"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":337.19,"endTime":340.49,"body":"underlying needs like trauma, autism, and ADHD."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":341.255,"endTime":345.755,"body":"And I know you know this if you're a regular listener, but we have to say it."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":345.894,"endTime":350.95000000000005,"body":"It's not there for us as educators to try and make a diagnosis because we're simply not qualified to do that."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":350.95000000000005,"endTime":352.33000000000004,"body":"We don't have that training."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":352.63,"endTime":354.89,"body":"That's the role of medical professionals."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":355.18999999999994,"endTime":359.45000000000005,"body":"But what the handbook can do is start to help to get the ball rolling."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":359.95399999999995,"endTime":365.23400000000004,"body":"Helping you and your teachers in school to get the right professionals involved and to help"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":365.23400000000004,"endTime":372.57000000000005,"body":"you to start to put early intervention strategies into place because that is always going to benefit the child."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":372.71000000000004,"endTime":377.82899999999995,"body":"The handbook also comes with fact sheets containing key information and strategies about conditions"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":377.82899999999995,"endTime":383.16499999999996,"body":"like PDA, ODD, fetal alcohol spectrum disorder, DLD, and more."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":383.30499999999995,"endTime":388.23,"body":"So if you'd like to get your hands on a free copy, we'll put a direct link in the show notes"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":388.23,"endTime":390.40999999999997,"body":"to where you can download from our website."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":390.549,"endTime":395.605,"body":"All you've got to do is open your podcast app, tap on the episode, and this will bring up the"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":395.605,"endTime":399.78499999999997,"body":"episode description where you'll be able to see the link and click right through."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":399.924,"endTime":406.17999999999995,"body":"And now without any further delay, it's time to put on our nose clip, slap on a rubber glove,"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":406.55999999999995,"endTime":412.58000000000004,"body":"extend out our hand gingerly, and grasp the cold fish we like to call behaviour."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":413.505,"endTime":418.725,"body":"So today, we're gonna discuss an approach to supporting children who are becoming dysregulated"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":418.94500000000005,"endTime":422.93999999999994,"body":"or engaging in sort of challenging behavior called PACE."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":422.93999999999994,"endTime":428.96000000000004,"body":"PACE is an acronym, p a c e, and it was developed not by us, but by Dan Hughes in America."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":429.644,"endTime":434.86400000000003,"body":"And it was developed really specifically to work with kids with a history of trauma or adverse"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":434.924,"endTime":441.71000000000004,"body":"childhood experiences, but it can actually be used in a kind of wider range of situations than that."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":441.71000000000004,"endTime":449.855,"body":"It's based on how parents tend to respond to infants when infants get upset or they're miscuing in social situations."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":449.91499999999996,"endTime":454.85,"body":"And and when you look at parents that do this well, what they do is they attune to the child,"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":454.85,"endTime":457.57000000000005,"body":"and that's what the PACE methodology does. Right?"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":457.57000000000005,"endTime":460.78999999999996,"body":"So we attune to the child. We use empathy."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":461.655,"endTime":466.375,"body":"Instead of jumping in and adding kind of, like, negative energy to the situation, the parents"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":466.375,"endTime":471.84000000000003,"body":"will slow down and be calm with the child. They coregulate."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":472.05999999999995,"endTime":478.55999999999995,"body":"So it's all about connecting first and then helping the infant to understand the experience,"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":478.62,"endTime":484.225,"body":"understand what's happened, and to interpret it in a way that's gonna be of benefit to them in the future."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":484.225,"endTime":490.35,"body":"So something's gone wrong in in the current situation, and we're kinda coaching them and helping them understand what happened."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":490.35,"endTime":494.269,"body":"So in future, they've got the information and knowledge they need to do better."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":494.269,"endTime":498.475,"body":"Obviously, you need to do this repeatedly over time for them to develop that knowledge."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":498.93499999999995,"endTime":502.55499999999995,"body":"So that's kind of like how parents tend to respond to infants."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":502.775,"endTime":509.93999999999994,"body":"However, this approach actually works really well for older children, especially those whose"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":509.93999999999994,"endTime":517.0649999999999,"body":"background didn't help them process and make sense of those early experiences effectively."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":518.005,"endTime":522.47,"body":"And when we're using PACE to support children we were working with, often, we're in a really"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":522.47,"endTime":525.6899999999999,"body":"heightened difficult situation where we're improvising."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":525.91,"endTime":530.25,"body":"And what happens then is it's actually really, really stressful and actually having these frameworks"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":530.31,"endTime":535.275,"body":"to refer to and use to takes the pressure out of the adult because you know you're following"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":535.495,"endTime":540.875,"body":"a sort of proven evidence based methodology to supporting your children when they're heightened."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":541.169,"endTime":545.1899999999999,"body":"You don't need to use all of the parts of pace in each situation."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":545.729,"endTime":548.695,"body":"It's gonna depend on the child and the situation you're in."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":548.775,"endTime":552.935,"body":"It's really a framework for how we interact with the child."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":552.935,"endTime":558.88,"body":"So it's not like you do p first and then a a next then c next and then e next. You know your kids."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":559.019,"endTime":562.9399999999999,"body":"You know the situation you're currently trying to deescalate or work through with the child,"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":562.9399999999999,"endTime":566.72,"body":"so you use your judgment about what's gonna work best in that situation."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":567.335,"endTime":569.595,"body":"It's great for diffusing confrontations."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":570.295,"endTime":578.299,"body":"And what it does actually is it builds trust and connection between you and the child forming a more solid relationship."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":578.299,"endTime":583.259,"body":"So what happens moving forward is they're more likely to trust you and let you sort of work"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":583.259,"endTime":589.475,"body":"alongside them and allow you to coregulate them, and they'll trust you to kind of mediate and resolve issues."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":589.615,"endTime":595.34,"body":"So we've kind of trailed and teased the PACE acronym or initialism."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":595.56,"endTime":597.58,"body":"Emma, do you wanna start with the first p?"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":597.72,"endTime":600.7,"body":"Yeah. Yeah. So the p stands for playfulness."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":601.0,"endTime":604.304,"body":"I'll go through all four letters, and then we'll do each one individually."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":604.525,"endTime":606.624,"body":"So we've got p for playfulness."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":607.325,"endTime":609.345,"body":"We've got a for acceptance."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":610.109,"endTime":614.45,"body":"We've got c for curiosity, and we've got e for empathy."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":614.59,"endTime":621.405,"body":"And as Simon said, you don't have to go through these techniques or strategies in order, but"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":621.405,"endTime":624.3050000000001,"body":"it's useful to have these concepts in mind."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":624.525,"endTime":632.369,"body":"And I really, really like this idea of thinking about stressful situations upfront as the adult"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":632.83,"endTime":637.445,"body":"so that you're mentally prepared with what to do next time."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":637.445,"endTime":644.585,"body":"Because when you're in a moment and it's a stressful situation, it's really hard for you to think clearly and strategically."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":645.09,"endTime":649.91,"body":"But if you've done that thinking ahead of a situation when you're calm, that means that your"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":650.0500000000001,"endTime":656.335,"body":"support and intervention is probably going to be a lot more considered, a lot calmer, and a"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":656.335,"endTime":658.835,"body":"lot more useful and effective."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":659.215,"endTime":664.8100000000001,"body":"So the p is for playfulness, and playfulness diffuses the confrontation."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":665.6700000000001,"endTime":672.825,"body":"So if somebody is upset or overwhelmed and somebody else comes along and gets upset or overwhelmed,"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":673.285,"endTime":675.625,"body":"that is not going to lower the tension."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":676.005,"endTime":683.72,"body":"So used really carefully and definitely not in a mocking type of way, coming from an angle of"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":683.72,"endTime":690.4250000000001,"body":"playfulness can really help to take the heat out of a difficult situation. It lowers the tension."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":690.885,"endTime":696.98,"body":"It gets everybody feeling calmer, and that means that sometimes, you know, this happens a lot, doesn't it?"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":696.98,"endTime":704.36,"body":"A small situation can really, really quickly escalate like wildfire, and you think to yourself, wow."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":704.595,"endTime":705.874,"body":"How did we get to this?"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":705.874,"endTime":711.655,"body":"I I only asked them to pick up a pencil or I only asked them to get their coat and suddenly, boom."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":712.109,"endTime":718.369,"body":"So what we're trying to do at every step of the way as the adult is think about what can I do"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":718.749,"endTime":722.235,"body":"which will mean that the tension drains away from this situation?"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":722.235,"endTime":728.1750000000001,"body":"How can I be the water in this situation with the fire rather than adding fuel to the fire?"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":728.395,"endTime":735.6800000000001,"body":"So in a class situation, this might look like using a more playful tone when giving a reminder, for example."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":736.0600000000001,"endTime":741.9150000000001,"body":"Instead of going in, you know, with your teacher bossy voice and being assertive, it might mean"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":742.2950000000001,"endTime":748.16,"body":"just being a little bit more fun, a little bit more relaxed, having a smile on your face."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":748.22,"endTime":753.0400000000001,"body":"You know, it's not the end of the world if children don't get into a straight line immediately."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":753.34,"endTime":758.515,"body":"But if that's the goal, the way that we ask them to get in the line will make a big difference"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":758.515,"endTime":761.4150000000001,"body":"to how the children actually get into that line."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":761.7950000000001,"endTime":767.34,"body":"So instead of being bossy or shouty, we can be more playful, make it a little bit fun."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":767.5600000000001,"endTime":770.62,"body":"The key here is to really think about your facial expression."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":771.345,"endTime":777.765,"body":"Lots of people don't realize how much of their emotions leak out of their faces and bodies."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":777.905,"endTime":780.645,"body":"So you've gotta be real good poker face here."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":780.73,"endTime":788.33,"body":"You've got to think carefully about actively softening your facial expressions, letting your"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":788.33,"endTime":794.025,"body":"face relax, smile rather than going in with stern body language."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":794.405,"endTime":797.865,"body":"And softening your face has 2 really great benefits."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":798.41,"endTime":804.49,"body":"One is it communicates nonverbally to everybody in the room that you're not cross."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":804.49,"endTime":805.6890000000001,"body":"This is not a threat."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":805.6890000000001,"endTime":806.99,"body":"This is not a confrontation."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":807.955,"endTime":815.975,"body":"But also actively softening your body language communicates to your own brain that this is not a threat situation."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":816.434,"endTime":819.239,"body":"We don't need to get excited about this."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":819.619,"endTime":820.999,"body":"We've got it under control."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":821.059,"endTime":824.34,"body":"So it gives really great biofeedback to your own brain."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":824.34,"endTime":830.515,"body":"So really being conscious of your face and your body when you're dealing with behaviour or correcting"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":830.735,"endTime":835.715,"body":"behaviour will have a big impact on how that interaction goes with the child."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":835.83,"endTime":839.99,"body":"So what that might look like here is imagine we've got a child who's engaging in task avoidance."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":839.99,"endTime":841.83,"body":"Maybe they're sitting there not doing any work."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":841.83,"endTime":843.75,"body":"One approach might be to go in and say, look."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":843.75,"endTime":847.054,"body":"The expectation is you need to do your work, pick up your pen, get on with it."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":847.054,"endTime":852.095,"body":"Now if the child is kinda like boiling underneath with their emotions, then that's actually"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":852.095,"endTime":853.91,"body":"likely to escalate the situation."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":853.91,"endTime":857.91,"body":"What we can do with playfulness, we can go in with just, you know, like, kind of like a just"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":857.91,"endTime":862.715,"body":"a just a gentle tone, a bit of a smile and say something along the lines of not working for you."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":862.715,"endTime":865.855,"body":"You know, you're staring it out to to see who wins either."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":865.9150000000001,"endTime":871.71,"body":"That kind of thing going in from the side to try and get just a smirk from the job because if"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":871.71,"endTime":875.63,"body":"you can get just a half smile from them, you're finding a way in."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":875.63,"endTime":882.115,"body":"And then you can start engaging in the next part of the PACE acronym where you can engage in a problem solving situation."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":882.115,"endTime":886.63,"body":"What you've done there is instead of having a head on collision where you are telling the child"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":886.63,"endTime":890.47,"body":"to start their work and they're saying no, and you're both kind of digging in in this game of chicken."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":890.47,"endTime":895.535,"body":"Actually, you're coming alongside the child, and you're forming connections with the child."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":895.535,"endTime":898.6750000000001,"body":"And what playfulness does actually is it kinda makes it clear."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":899.135,"endTime":907.36,"body":"The relationship that you have with them is stronger and more powerful than the behaviour that they've engaged in."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":907.4200000000001,"endTime":912.315,"body":"You're trying to reach them at a personal level to say, look, you know, this behaviour may not"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":912.315,"endTime":916.395,"body":"be working, might not be successful in this situation, but actually I see you as a human being."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":916.395,"endTime":917.835,"body":"There's a connection between us."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":917.835,"endTime":919.58,"body":"This doesn't have to be the end of the world."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":919.66,"endTime":925.1,"body":"When we kind of minimize that and kind of deescalate and take the pressure away and form that"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":925.1,"endTime":932.254,"body":"connection with them, what it then does is it gives them a way to transition away and get back"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":932.254,"endTime":933.875,"body":"to normal running in the classroom."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":934.095,"endTime":939.39,"body":"We've moved from a game of chicken to opening a conversation about what's wrong and how we can move things forward."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":939.39,"endTime":945.845,"body":"Now, obviously, there are times when playfulness is appropriate, and there are times when it is not."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":945.905,"endTime":950.385,"body":"If you've got a child throwing a chair across the classroom at a window, if you've got children"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":950.385,"endTime":955.799,"body":"who are physically attacking each other, it is obviously not the time for a bit of dry humor. Okay."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":955.799,"endTime":958.379,"body":"It's not a time to sort of lighten what's happening."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":958.76,"endTime":961.465,"body":"But most incidents don't start like that."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":961.465,"endTime":967.145,"body":"They start with smaller frustrations, and that is where playfulness can come into play because"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":967.145,"endTime":973.52,"body":"it just takes the tension away and opens conversations rather than ending up in closed arguments"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":973.82,"endTime":980.2950000000001,"body":"where you end up with kinda like a win lose situation that fuels the escalation. So that's playfulness."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":980.595,"endTime":982.934,"body":"It's not jumping in with 2 feet and being stern."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":983.075,"endTime":987.7,"body":"It's actually thinking about how can we just loosen that release valve, take the tension out,"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":987.9390000000001,"endTime":989.4,"body":"and work together with the student."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":989.619,"endTime":995.799,"body":"I think what's also important to note here is as with all behaviour management or behaviour support,"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":995.885,"endTime":998.304,"body":"you're gonna be using your knowledge of the child."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":998.845,"endTime":1005.859,"body":"So some children hate it if the teacher tries to make a joke or uses humor because they feel"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1005.859,"endTime":1007.64,"body":"like they are being laughed at."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1008.02,"endTime":1013.755,"body":"So if you're detecting that and you know that the child doesn't like that, then you're obviously not gonna do that."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1014.075,"endTime":1019.835,"body":"But even when you are giving instructions or reminders, you can still think about your body"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1019.835,"endTime":1021.275,"body":"language and the tone of voice."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1021.275,"endTime":1025.92,"body":"You don't have to be daft and silly about it, but you can just make sure that there's a little"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1025.92,"endTime":1027.94,"body":"bit of softness and a little bit of kindness."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1028.3999999999999,"endTime":1035.245,"body":"Because the child, if they're in distress or they're overwhelmed, their antennae is up looking for threat."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1035.705,"endTime":1043.36,"body":"And if they detect any level of threat or confrontation from you, that's definitely gonna escalate the situation."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1043.6599999999999,"endTime":1045.82,"body":"Can I add one thing there before we move on, Emma, as well?"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1045.82,"endTime":1050.465,"body":"It reminds me of a case once where I was working with a child, and they they were really angry."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1050.465,"endTime":1054.465,"body":"And we used to have this sort of section of the classroom with some of the reading scheme in,"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1054.465,"endTime":1058.57,"body":"and they just went over there and they were kind of like venting and they threw the books on the floor."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1058.57,"endTime":1061.1299999999999,"body":"The humor doesn't have to actually be about about the child so much."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1061.1299999999999,"endTime":1063.1499999999999,"body":"You can make it about the thing that's gone wrong."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1063.195,"endTime":1066.635,"body":"So we made a joke about, yeah, I don't like that reading scheme either."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1066.635,"endTime":1072.21,"body":"So you can actually turn the playfulness on yourself, which actually depersonalizes it."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1072.21,"endTime":1073.57,"body":"It it's not about being a comedian."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1073.57,"endTime":1076.21,"body":"It's just about finding a shared moment of empathy, I think."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1076.21,"endTime":1077.8899999999999,"body":"And I think you touched on it earlier."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1077.8899999999999,"endTime":1080.325,"body":"It's just getting things into context. You know?"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1080.325,"endTime":1081.7649999999999,"body":"This is not the end of the world."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1081.7649999999999,"endTime":1088.08,"body":"So throwing the books on the floor is not what we want to happen, and it's not okay, but the"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1088.08,"endTime":1091.36,"body":"world isn't going to implode because somebody's thrown some books."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1091.36,"endTime":1094.18,"body":"So we're taking out the intensity in that situation."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1094.32,"endTime":1096.26,"body":"So we've got p for playfulness."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1097.145,"endTime":1100.2849999999999,"body":"In the PACE acronym, we've got a for acceptance."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1100.985,"endTime":1107.869,"body":"And this is about the adult not judging the child for what they are experiencing right now."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1108.01,"endTime":1110.989,"body":"So in our life, emotions just bubble up."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1111.049,"endTime":1114.029,"body":"And remember, there aren't any good or bad emotions."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1114.49,"endTime":1117.915,"body":"Emotions are just emotions, and they come and go."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1118.215,"endTime":1123.254,"body":"And we've actually got very little control over them a lot of the time, so we shouldn't judge"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1123.254,"endTime":1126.4699999999998,"body":"people based on the emotions that they are experiencing."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1127.57,"endTime":1135.0849999999998,"body":"So when we are coming from an acceptance point of view, we're going to listen and accept the"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1135.0849999999998,"endTime":1139.5049999999999,"body":"child's thoughts nonjudgmentally, and this is hard."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1140.05,"endTime":1145.99,"body":"You don't have to agree with what the child is thinking or saying or their perception of the situation."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1146.53,"endTime":1152.2749999999999,"body":"It doesn't mean that you're colluding with that, but you're also not going to be dismissive."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1152.8149999999998,"endTime":1158.2749999999999,"body":"You're not gonna push their thoughts and feelings to the side, and you're not going to argue with them."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1158.649,"endTime":1164.25,"body":"Even if you blatantly can see that the way they are reading a situation is very differently"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1164.25,"endTime":1169.365,"body":"to the way that you are reading it, now is not the time to have that conversation."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1169.904,"endTime":1173.8249999999998,"body":"When they are heightened, they are not in a learning brain state."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1173.8249999999998,"endTime":1175.605,"body":"So this is not the teaching point."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1175.9099999999999,"endTime":1181.61,"body":"So acceptance is literally listening and accepting."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1182.1499999999999,"endTime":1184.6299999999999,"body":"They are feeling something right now."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1184.6299999999999,"endTime":1188.8149999999998,"body":"They are perceiving a situation to be happening a certain way."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1188.875,"endTime":1195.8,"body":"And the way that you can show your acceptance is by neutral body language and using a technique"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1195.8,"endTime":1199.8799999999999,"body":"called reflection, where you're repeating back what the child is saying."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1199.8799999999999,"endTime":1205.615,"body":"So it might be, for example, the child might be saying, it's too hard. I can't do it."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1205.675,"endTime":1207.2949999999998,"body":"This is too hard for me."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1207.5949999999998,"endTime":1212.975,"body":"And you might be saying, I think what I'm hearing is you're finding the work too hard."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1213.58,"endTime":1219.8999999999999,"body":"Or you might say, I think you're saying that you think this work is too hard for you, and that"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1219.8999999999999,"endTime":1222.48,"body":"made you upset and you ran away, for example."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1223.154,"endTime":1228.1139999999998,"body":"Or it might be if a child thinks another child has done something to them, and maybe they have"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1228.1139999999998,"endTime":1230.3799999999999,"body":"or they haven't, that's their perception so were going to validate that perception by saying ok"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1238.06,"endTime":1241.725,"body":"so another child has done something and that's what made you angry?"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1242.105,"endTime":1248.8249999999998,"body":"Now whether or not that is what really happened, that is what the child perceived to have happened,"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1248.8249999999998,"endTime":1251.6899999999998,"body":"and that has triggered a strong emotion in them."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1251.75,"endTime":1257.5749999999998,"body":"So we are accepting the situation from the child's perspective, and we're accepting that they're"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1257.5749999999998,"endTime":1259.495,"body":"having a big feeling around that."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1259.495,"endTime":1264.475,"body":"It still doesn't mean that it's okay to hurt somebody else or hurt yourself or break things,"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1265.1,"endTime":1273.1139999999998,"body":"but we are accepting this is what you think has happened, and this is how you are feeling about it. And that's okay."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1273.1139999999998,"endTime":1274.495,"body":"And do you know what's interesting here?"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1274.7949999999998,"endTime":1281.3899999999999,"body":"Even if you know the child is actively lying, and even if the child knows they're lying, actually,"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1281.3899999999999,"endTime":1287.4699999999998,"body":"what you're doing by investing the time in listening to them is that you're saying, like, I"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1287.4699999999998,"endTime":1290.4499999999998,"body":"am here, and I am taking what you are saying seriously."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1291.0649999999998,"endTime":1295.8049999999998,"body":"And that actually builds your relationship with them."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1296.105,"endTime":1302.62,"body":"And what we we definitely wanna reinforce is this is not the same as accepting the pupil's behaviour as being okay."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1302.76,"endTime":1306.06,"body":"It's not the same as saying there's no limits on what they can do or say."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1306.1999999999998,"endTime":1311.144,"body":"I think it's Alcoholics Anonymous have the saying all progress starts with the truth."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1311.144,"endTime":1316.009,"body":"And what we'd need to do as the adult is understand the truth from their perspective because"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1316.009,"endTime":1318.1899999999998,"body":"without that, we're gonna find it difficult to make progress."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1318.649,"endTime":1323.745,"body":"So it might be that you put firm limits on place on their behaviour and you put firm boundaries in place."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1323.985,"endTime":1329.685,"body":"But this approach helps the child understand when you talk it through that it's the behaviour"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1330.225,"endTime":1334.57,"body":"that's at issue, not the child as an individual, not the child's individual worth."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1334.79,"endTime":1337.59,"body":"It's not about your relationship with the child."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1337.59,"endTime":1343.2839999999999,"body":"So what we do in this phase is we're accepting whether that's true, right, wrong."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1343.2839999999999,"endTime":1346.965,"body":"We're accepting that in this moment, this is how they feel."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1346.965,"endTime":1352.07,"body":"These are their thoughts right now, and we're not going into whether what they've done is right or wrong."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1352.07,"endTime":1358.0549999999998,"body":"We're trying to understand what's driving their behaviour, what their motivation is, and we're"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1358.0549999999998,"endTime":1361.435,"body":"putting ourself in their shoes as well as we can."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1361.655,"endTime":1366.7199999999998,"body":"So as the adult, what we can do then is we can identify any misunderstandings."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1367.26,"endTime":1372.3799999999999,"body":"Perhaps there was an incident in the classroom around a social situation or, they've misread"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1372.3799999999999,"endTime":1378.7649999999999,"body":"an expectation, and they've become frustrated or angry or embarrassed or anxious, and that's led to an issue."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1378.7649999999999,"endTime":1381.3449999999998,"body":"Perhaps there was a gap in their social or emotional knowledge."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1381.4499999999998,"endTime":1387.4499999999998,"body":"But unless we sit down and listen actively to the child without interrupting or arguing, then"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1387.4499999999998,"endTime":1390.35,"body":"we will never get to that gap."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1390.955,"endTime":1393.455,"body":"We can't support them with them because we don't know what it is."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1393.5149999999999,"endTime":1396.235,"body":"So that's what this section of pace is all about."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1396.235,"endTime":1401.6599999999999,"body":"Accepting that this is how they feel right now, not accepting that break in the window or throwing"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1401.6599999999999,"endTime":1403.98,"body":"something or swearing at someone else is okay."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1403.98,"endTime":1405.6,"body":"It's a different kind of acceptance."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1406.3,"endTime":1410.185,"body":"That's right. So we've got p for playfulness, a for acceptance."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1410.644,"endTime":1413.705,"body":"So let's move on to c, which stands for curiosity."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1414.484,"endTime":1422.6,"body":"So, again, in this vein of listening, tuning in, understanding the meaning behind the words,"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1422.82,"endTime":1430.2949999999998,"body":"understanding the communication behind the behaviour, using curiosity instead of judgment helps"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1430.2949999999998,"endTime":1433.7549999999999,"body":"the child explore their feelings and what went wrong."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1434.29,"endTime":1441.009,"body":"And this is acting with genuine curiosity, and this can be really, really hard to do because"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1441.009,"endTime":1448.3249999999998,"body":"when children behave in particular ways, that pushes our buttons, and it causes a visceral emotional"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1448.465,"endTime":1450.404,"body":"reaction in us as well."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1450.625,"endTime":1455.9599999999998,"body":"So we've really got to be super aware of our own feelings and our own demeanor, and we've got"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1455.9599999999998,"endTime":1463.394,"body":"to kind of squash that down for now, prioritize the child so that we can be curious about, I"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1463.394,"endTime":1465.634,"body":"wonder why they responded in that way."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1465.634,"endTime":1467.8149999999998,"body":"What were they thinking around that time?"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1468.11,"endTime":1470.03,"body":"What actually happened and what went wrong?"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1470.03,"endTime":1472.1899999999998,"body":"What were the child's perceptions around it?"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1472.1899999999998,"endTime":1479.0649999999998,"body":"And then as Simon said, once we understand that in a calmer, cooler moment, we can start to"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1479.0649999999998,"endTime":1485.1,"body":"teach them about managing and coping with those feelings and emotions, and that will then make"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1485.1,"endTime":1487.4399999999998,"body":"positive changes in the way that they behave."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1487.58,"endTime":1496.245,"body":"If we don't do that teaching part, the child will be stuck in a cycle of something happens, they respond. Something happens, they respond."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1496.705,"endTime":1502.145,"body":"So where we actually want to change or modify behaviours, we've got to really listen in and be"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1502.145,"endTime":1506.779,"body":"curious about why why did they respond in that way? What happened there?"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1507.2389999999998,"endTime":1514.0149999999999,"body":"When we are judgy, when we are blaming, that immediately gets people's backs up, and they normally"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1514.0149999999999,"endTime":1515.135,"body":"go one of 2 ways."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1515.135,"endTime":1520.08,"body":"They either become aggressive and they go on the attack because they feel like you're not listening"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1520.08,"endTime":1526.0,"body":"and you're being mean to them or you're telling them off, or they shut down and they won't engage."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1526.0,"endTime":1531.665,"body":"And neither one of those options is going to help us get to the bottom of how the child is feeling"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1531.665,"endTime":1534.645,"body":"about this and why they are responding in this way."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1535.3,"endTime":1542.259,"body":"So the way to be curious is to use open questions to get more information about what the child"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1542.259,"endTime":1546.495,"body":"is thinking at the time and, again, thinking about our tone."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1546.875,"endTime":1553.215,"body":"So you might say something like, I wonder what you were thinking when, and then x, y, and zed."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1553.519,"endTime":1560.019,"body":"Now if I say that same question again in a different tone, you'll hear the difference in the intonation. What were you thinking?"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1560.8249999999998,"endTime":1562.504,"body":"That's completely different, isn't it?"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1562.504,"endTime":1564.445,"body":"So it's curious and wondering."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1565.225,"endTime":1571.49,"body":"What do you hear and see the other child do before, And what what do you think was going on?"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1571.6299999999999,"endTime":1578.77,"body":"Or even saying something like, can you help me understand what happened before he took the pencil sharpener?"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1579.2949999999998,"endTime":1585.215,"body":"So saying things like that, can you help me to understand, opens up the opportunity for the"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1585.215,"endTime":1589.4599999999998,"body":"child to think about what happened and then articulate it."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1590.08,"endTime":1594.8,"body":"And in that way, you'll be able to get to the bottom of the feelings that motivated the child"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1594.8,"endTime":1596.0449999999998,"body":"to behave in that way."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1596.2839999999999,"endTime":1602.8639999999998,"body":"One tip here actually is to avoid one open question in particular, which is asking them why"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1603.48,"endTime":1606.4599999999998,"body":"they did something or or why something happened."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1606.76,"endTime":1610.62,"body":"Because often, they don't actually know."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1611.0149999999999,"endTime":1615.3349999999998,"body":"But what they can do is when you ask questions like Emma just said, you know, what do you think"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1615.3349999999998,"endTime":1617.195,"body":"was going on, or can you help me understand?"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1617.975,"endTime":1622.889,"body":"What that does is the child's probably able to answer those questions because it's kind of factual"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1623.029,"endTime":1626.87,"body":"concrete information that they can access, that they can tell you."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1626.87,"endTime":1631.5339999999999,"body":"They might not have the emotional awareness to know why if he was in a highly emotional state."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1631.5339999999999,"endTime":1634.654,"body":"Often, when we're heightened, we don't know why we've done things."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1634.654,"endTime":1636.5949999999998,"body":"We're just fueled by our feelings."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1637.33,"endTime":1641.4099999999999,"body":"So one tip here is definitely avoid asking the child why they did something."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1641.4099999999999,"endTime":1649.115,"body":"But another thing you can do is suggest your own ideas to help them clarify their thinking."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1649.175,"endTime":1653.3349999999998,"body":"Let's imagine a situation here where one of the children's been working and another child borrowed"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1653.3349999999998,"endTime":1655.915,"body":"their pencil sharpener and and the other child got really upset."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1656.7199999999998,"endTime":1663.139,"body":"A question you might ask is, could it be you thought the other boy was stealing your pencil sharpener?"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1663.5449999999998,"endTime":1668.105,"body":"And then you just hang back, and you don't jump in with any more ideas, and you let them just"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1668.105,"endTime":1671.0849999999998,"body":"think about it and talk about your idea."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1671.35,"endTime":1676.3899999999999,"body":"So that's prompting something in their head that's gonna help them to understand the situation"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1676.3899999999999,"endTime":1677.99,"body":"that they're in that they may not have considered."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1677.99,"endTime":1683.965,"body":"Or you might say, tell me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like you were worried you would never"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1683.965,"endTime":1686.144,"body":"get the pencil sharpener back."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1686.445,"endTime":1692.26,"body":"Because many children who have a history of trauma or ACE's don't actually appreciate that an"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1692.26,"endTime":1697.06,"body":"object can be taken away in return or they don't trust in the past, they've had things taken"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1697.06,"endTime":1701.0949999999998,"body":"away from them by parents or by, you know, experiences in their early childhood."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1701.394,"endTime":1704.195,"body":"Things have been taken from them, and they've never been returned."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1704.195,"endTime":1707.76,"body":"So they don't believe that once something's been taken away, it's gonna come back."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1707.9199999999998,"endTime":1713.4399999999998,"body":"Or you could prompt a question like, is there a part of you that felt angry when he took the"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1713.4399999999998,"endTime":1715.78,"body":"sharpener, but didn't know what to say?"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1715.84,"endTime":1721.425,"body":"And things like, is part of this because you feel sad that your dog is poorly and has to go to the vets tonight?"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1721.725,"endTime":1725.165,"body":"Looking at actually, this has nothing to do with a pencil sharpener, and that actually there are"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1725.165,"endTime":1733.1499999999999,"body":"things going on at home that are background emotional churn that are affecting the way that you're acting right now."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1733.1499999999999,"endTime":1735.33,"body":"So you wanna keep the tone light."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1735.705,"endTime":1737.165,"body":"You wanna keep it curious."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1737.865,"endTime":1742.2649999999999,"body":"When you go in with this curious kinda tone, this curious state of mind, what it does is it"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1742.2649999999999,"endTime":1746.85,"body":"puts the child in a state where they're able to really sort of open up and talk about what happened."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1747.149,"endTime":1752.225,"body":"And when you're prompting them with these open questions, you're helping them reflect on not"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1752.225,"endTime":1758.3049999999998,"body":"just what happened, but their own thoughts, how valid their those thoughts are, and whether"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1758.3049999999998,"endTime":1763.07,"body":"the behaviour was kind of appropriate for the situation they were in now they've had time to"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1763.07,"endTime":1766.1899999999998,"body":"reflect on it, or you've helped them to reflect on it."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1766.1899999999998,"endTime":1771.654,"body":"And remember, some kids might not understand what they've done wrong for a range of reasons,"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1771.955,"endTime":1776.6589999999999,"body":"and they might actually feel that they're being attacked by the other children or the adults. They might understand."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1776.6589999999999,"endTime":1781.08,"body":"The other child sitting next to him should have asked to borrow the pencil sharpener."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1781.3,"endTime":1785.494,"body":"But that, you know, in that in that social situation, the appropriate thing to do is to use"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1785.494,"endTime":1790.955,"body":"your words and kind of try and understand what's happening in that situation and negotiate a reasonable reasonable outcome."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1791.254,"endTime":1795.9499999999998,"body":"They might know something's gone wrong that the pencil sharpener's being taken away, and they"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1795.9499999999998,"endTime":1799.01,"body":"feel angry or, you know, attacked by that."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1799.1499999999999,"endTime":1802.6699999999998,"body":"And they know they're now in trouble with the adult because they were shouting and swearing,"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1802.6699999999998,"endTime":1806.0749999999998,"body":"but they're not quite sure why they don't see the chain of cause and effect."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1806.455,"endTime":1813.82,"body":"So approaching with curiosity rather than interrogating helps the child reflect and learn for themselves."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1814.4399999999998,"endTime":1819.58,"body":"And when we have those conversations, what we're doing is we're making lots of implicit unspoken"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1819.8,"endTime":1825.5149999999999,"body":"knowledge about those social situations more explicit so the child knows what to do next time."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1825.5149999999999,"endTime":1833.2099999999998,"body":"So we've had p for playfulness, a for acceptance, c for curiosity, and finally, e for empathy."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1833.83,"endTime":1839.5649999999998,"body":"So this is where we show the child that what they were thinking and feeling is important to"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1839.5649999999998,"endTime":1845.425,"body":"the adult and that we are taking the time to support them even in hard times."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1845.639,"endTime":1850.4599999999998,"body":"We're not just going to interact with them when they're good or compliant or happy."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1850.9199999999998,"endTime":1853.82,"body":"When things go wrong, we will be there for them."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1853.975,"endTime":1857.7549999999999,"body":"So we can talk about the emotions and feelings that they are experiencing."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1858.455,"endTime":1861.675,"body":"We can emphasize that the emotion is temporary."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1861.895,"endTime":1863.195,"body":"It will come and go."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1863.54,"endTime":1864.98,"body":"Feelings are like the weather."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1864.98,"endTime":1870.5,"body":"You can have more than one feeling at the same time, and it's like clouds going past, isn't it?"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1870.5,"endTime":1872.1,"body":"They might not realize that."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1872.1,"endTime":1877.0849999999998,"body":"When you're having a big feeling, it can feel like this is it forever."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1877.145,"endTime":1878.5249999999999,"body":"It can be all consuming."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1879.225,"endTime":1882.7649999999999,"body":"So talking about that can really help to build relationships."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1883.4099999999999,"endTime":1889.2079999999999,"body":"And we are seeing the person and connecting with the person behind the behaviour."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1889.33,"endTime":1894.215,"body":"You'll sometimes hear people talk about separating the behaviour from the person."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1894.514,"endTime":1899.3149999999998,"body":"I know that feels difficult to do, but just because they've made a mistake, it doesn't mean"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1899.3149999999998,"endTime":1902.519,"body":"that they're a bad person or that we don't like them now."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1902.7389999999998,"endTime":1908.359,"body":"So it's helping them to understand all feelings are normal and that they can come and go."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1908.4989999999998,"endTime":1915.685,"body":"And and like we said before, being empathetic is different from agreeing with the child's actions"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1916.0649999999998,"endTime":1920.11,"body":"or their viewpoints or endorsing or corroborating."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1920.49,"endTime":1926.75,"body":"We're not saying that it's okay to throw the pencil sharpener or whatever they've done. That's not okay."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1926.935,"endTime":1930.935,"body":"But what we are saying is they are okay. We still like them."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1930.935,"endTime":1932.394,"body":"We still care about them."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1932.615,"endTime":1938.6589999999999,"body":"We've got a human relationship with them regardless of the fact that they've made a mistake with their behaviour."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1939.519,"endTime":1947.665,"body":"So it's more about making them feel heard and seen, all of that before we start talking about"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1947.665,"endTime":1951.7649999999999,"body":"rules or limits or boundaries or consequences."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1952.61,"endTime":1956.05,"body":"And we're also communicating to that child that they're not alone."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1956.05,"endTime":1958.79,"body":"They don't have to deal with hard things on their own."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1958.85,"endTime":1965.355,"body":"We are there standing side by side with them because we care about them, and and we want them to be okay."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1965.735,"endTime":1970.4499999999998,"body":"And as Simon mentioned earlier, for some kids, they haven't had that."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1970.4499999999998,"endTime":1975.75,"body":"There hasn't been a reliable, dependent adult who has stuck with them through thick or thin."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1975.9699999999998,"endTime":1983.6139999999998,"body":"So we're really teaching them that this is a possibility that other adults can form meaningful connections with them."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1983.6139999999998,"endTime":1987.9399999999998,"body":"So if you want to show empathy, again, recap what the child has said with phrases like, I think"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1987.9399999999998,"endTime":1992.8999999999999,"body":"you're saying that or let me say that back to you to make sure I've got it right in my head."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1992.8999999999999,"endTime":1997.355,"body":"And what you're doing is you're showing you've listened and you've thought about what they've said."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1997.355,"endTime":2001.195,"body":"You're not just going through a, like, a tick box formality of listening to what they say before"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":2001.195,"endTime":2002.735,"body":"you drop the hammer on a punishment."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":2003.1899999999998,"endTime":2006.4699999999998,"body":"The message is together, we will get through this."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":2006.4699999999998,"endTime":2008.7099999999998,"body":"You won't be abandoned because of this mistake."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":2008.7099999999998,"endTime":2011.4499999999998,"body":"Your relationship with this adult can survive the behaviour."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":2011.6239999999998,"endTime":2015.5449999999998,"body":"And I've worked with a number of families, and I can't kind of reinforce this enough."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":2015.5449999999998,"endTime":2020.185,"body":"In most households, if there's an argument or a a disagreement between an adult and a child"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":2020.185,"endTime":2026.529,"body":"about behaviour, what will happen after the discussion or indeed the telling off depending on what household you're in?"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":2026.529,"endTime":2030.7549999999999,"body":"There will be a moment where the adult says to the child, brings them back together, has the"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":2030.7549999999999,"endTime":2035.5549999999998,"body":"connection, and and they'll say, I still love you. It doesn't matter. We can fix things."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":2035.5549999999998,"endTime":2037.7949999999998,"body":"Now in some households, that doesn't happen."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":2037.7949999999998,"endTime":2043.639,"body":"And what happens is the child learns that the adult and the child have an argument, and they see the adult's fury."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":2043.639,"endTime":2046.2199999999998,"body":"They see the adult's anger or they get told off or whatever."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":2046.5549999999998,"endTime":2049.275,"body":"But then that moment of reconnection doesn't happen."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":2049.275,"endTime":2054.659,"body":"So they might not appreciate that relationships can be repaired after an incident."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":2054.659,"endTime":2057.2400000000002,"body":"The solution to that is empathy."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":2057.7,"endTime":2063.545,"body":"And when you think about it, in your own life, if you've made a mistake as an adult, you're"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":2063.545,"endTime":2069.705,"body":"more likely to talk to someone that you view as empathetic about it than than someone who's"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":2069.705,"endTime":2072.729,"body":"gonna judge you or damn you or be inquisitorial about it."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":2072.729,"endTime":2074.909,"body":"And you you kinda see this in the medical profession."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":2075.29,"endTime":2080.029,"body":"When doctors make mistakes, often what happens is they'll get sued."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":2080.145,"endTime":2084.485,"body":"There'll be a malpractice suit, and then there's public judgment and shaming."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":2084.8650000000002,"endTime":2090.8,"body":"So in the medical profession, the strong temptation when a mistake is made is to cover it up"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":2090.86,"endTime":2098.16,"body":"and not own up and bring mistakes to light so they can be examined with empathy in a nonjudgmental way."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":2098.885,"endTime":2104.245,"body":"Unless that empathy is there and that supportive procedure is in place, then we don't learn"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":2104.245,"endTime":2107.879,"body":"to address mistakes so they don't get repeated in the future."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":2108.0190000000002,"endTime":2113.54,"body":"So to conclude, the PACE acronym is p for playfulness"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":2113.94,"endTime":2114.92,"body":"a for acceptance."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":2115.685,"endTime":2116.745,"body":"C for curiosity."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":2117.205,"endTime":2118.425,"body":"And e for empathy."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":2118.885,"endTime":2120.485,"body":"And that's what we've got for you today."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":2120.485,"endTime":2124.43,"body":"If you found our explanation of using PACE useful, remember, don't keep it to yourself."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":2124.43,"endTime":2127.95,"body":"Share this episode with your friends and colleagues on social media."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":2127.95,"endTime":2130.75,"body":"All you have to do is use the share button on your podcast app."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":2130.75,"endTime":2133.409,"body":"The app will make it easy to post this episode."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":2133.654,"endTime":2138.875,"body":"We'll share a direct link of this episode in a message or a text or whatever."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":2139.334,"endTime":2140.77,"body":"So thank you for listening today."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":2140.929,"endTime":2148.085,"body":"We both hope that you have a great week, and we can't wait to see you next time on School Behaviour Secrets. Bye for now. Bye."}]}