{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":87.42999999999999,"endTime":93.20899999999999,"body":"So when we think about pupils with SEMH needs, we often focus on children who have difficulties"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":93.35,"endTime":96.40899999999999,"body":"with strong emotions like anger or anxiety."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":97.154,"endTime":101.255,"body":"But there's another group of students who often go under the radar."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":101.71499999999999,"endTime":106.86999999999999,"body":"They're the kids that experience persistent, long term feelings of sadness."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":107.41,"endTime":113.16399999999999,"body":"And in this week's episode, we interview Clare Williams from Hamish and Milo who shares strategies"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":113.30499999999999,"endTime":119.405,"body":"and insights for identifying who those children are and how we can help them in school."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":120.13,"endTime":122.94999999999999,"body":"Welcome to the School Behaviour Secrets podcast."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":123.25,"endTime":124.78999999999999,"body":"I'm your host, Simon Currigan."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":124.85,"endTime":130.33499999999998,"body":"My co host is Emma Shackleton, and we're obsessed with helping teachers, school leaders, parents,"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":130.33499999999998,"endTime":134.515,"body":"and, of course, students when classroom behaviour gets in the way of success."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":134.575,"endTime":139.44,"body":"We're gonna share the tried and tested secrets to classroom management, behavioural special needs,"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":139.44,"endTime":144.815,"body":"whole school strategy, and more, all with the aim of helping your students reach their true potential."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":145.115,"endTime":150.815,"body":"Plus, we'll be letting you eavesdrop on our conversations with thought leaders from around the world."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":151.035,"endTime":155.69,"body":"So you'll get to hear the latest evidence based strategies before anyone else."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":155.69,"endTime":160.055,"body":"This is the School Behaviour Secrets podcast. Hi there."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":160.055,"endTime":162.954,"body":"Welcome to school behavior secrets. My name's Simon Currigan."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":163.414,"endTime":167.83499999999998,"body":"Richard Dawkins once said, sometimes in life, it is a good idea to stop."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":168.149,"endTime":170.469,"body":"Sometimes it is a good idea to go on."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":170.469,"endTime":173.10899999999998,"body":"The trick is to decide when to stop."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":173.10899999999998,"endTime":178.755,"body":"If he was in this room listening to this podcast, hearing we've reached over 200 episodes in."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":178.89499999999998,"endTime":184.115,"body":"I reckon Richard Dawkins would have his head in his hands telling us we definitely missed a trick."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":184.33499999999998,"endTime":188.81,"body":"I'm joined today as ever by my more than able cohost, Emma Shackleton. Hi, Emma."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":188.81,"endTime":189.469,"body":"Hi, Simon."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":189.529,"endTime":190.749,"body":"Time for a quick question."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":190.889,"endTime":191.63,"body":"Of course."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":191.92899999999997,"endTime":201.185,"body":"Okay then. According to a February 2024 poll by YouGov, do most people prefer a happy ending"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":201.185,"endTime":205.42,"body":"or a sad ending to a romantic book film or TV show?"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":205.64,"endTime":210.7,"body":"Happy ending. Surely. What kind of people are craving a sad ending?"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":211.255,"endTime":212.71499999999997,"body":"The world is hard enough."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":213.175,"endTime":215.994,"body":"I say people want a happy ending a 100%."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":216.61499999999998,"endTime":218.775,"body":"Oh, the goths in the room won't agree with that."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":218.775,"endTime":222.26999999999998,"body":"But the winner by an absolute, sorry goths."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":222.26999999999998,"endTime":227.98499999999999,"body":"By an absolute landslide at 72% It's a happy ending."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":228.20499999999998,"endTime":229.965,"body":"Only 5% preferred a sad ending."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":229.965,"endTime":234.69899999999998,"body":"They listened to a lot of My Chemical Romance. And 23% were undecided."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":235.64,"endTime":237.32,"body":"Okay. So what's the point?"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":237.32,"endTime":240.059,"body":"Why are you asking about sad and happy endings?"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":240.28,"endTime":247.075,"body":"I'm asking today because we're going to be exploring how to support pupils who experience long"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":247.075,"endTime":253.57,"body":"term persistent feelings of sadness with our guest Clare Williams from Hamish and Milo."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":253.71,"endTime":258.875,"body":"So this isn't about kids who get short term sadness, the kind of feelings that naturally come"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":258.875,"endTime":261.055,"body":"and go for all children and adults, in fact."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":261.355,"endTime":266.075,"body":"This is when peoples get stuck in the sadness, and they can't get out of it."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":266.075,"endTime":272.14,"body":"And Clare gives us some really specific simple strategies we can use to support those kids in our schools."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":272.36,"endTime":274.46000000000004,"body":"Oh, I'm really excited for this episode."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":274.76,"endTime":278.93399999999997,"body":"Clare and I have both been guest speakers at Ascend Conference recently."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":279.395,"endTime":283.975,"body":"It's been so lovely to connect with her and hear about the work of Hamish and Milo."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":284.31,"endTime":289.43,"body":"I think this is an important conversation because it's easy for kids like this to go under the"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":289.43,"endTime":295.265,"body":"radar because they're not acting out or externalising their behavior or attacking other children"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":295.265,"endTime":298.805,"body":"or throwing chairs and that kind of thing. They're easy to miss."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":298.91999999999996,"endTime":300.84000000000003,"body":"Yeah. Definitely. Definitely easy to miss."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":300.84000000000003,"endTime":306.544,"body":"And this is another category of need we've definitely seen on the rise since COVID and lockdown."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":306.544,"endTime":311.58500000000004,"body":"By the way, if you're working with children who have difficulty managing strong emotions, we've"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":311.58500000000004,"endTime":316.96000000000004,"body":"got a free download that could help your students or even your own children at home if you're"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":316.96000000000004,"endTime":318.58,"body":"listening to this as a parent."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":318.88,"endTime":323.38,"body":"It's called how to help children manage anger and other strong emotions."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":323.83500000000004,"endTime":327.455,"body":"Of course, persistent sadness is another strong emotion."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":327.595,"endTime":331.775,"body":"The guide gives you an approach to helping your student or your child understand, recognize,"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":331.995,"endTime":334.69899999999996,"body":"and manage strong emotions successfully."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":335.08,"endTime":340.19899999999996,"body":"It shares a method that's evidence based, walks you through how to use the approach step by"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":340.19899999999996,"endTime":343.73400000000004,"body":"step, and even comes with some principles to support your work."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":343.73400000000004,"endTime":348.855,"body":"So we'll put a direct link to the page on our website where you can download a copy for free."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":348.855,"endTime":354.67999999999995,"body":"All you've got to do is open your podcast app while it's playing, click the info button, or"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":354.67999999999995,"endTime":358.6,"body":"scroll down the episode description, and you'll see a direct link."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":358.6,"endTime":360.615,"body":"Make sure you grab your copy today."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":360.83500000000004,"endTime":366.53499999999997,"body":"And while you've got that podcast app open, don't forget to share school behaviour secrets with your friends and colleagues."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":366.91499999999996,"endTime":370.03,"body":"It really genuinely helps the podcast grow."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":370.09000000000003,"endTime":374.57000000000005,"body":"And if you think about it, it was probably from someone sharing an episode on social media or"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":374.57000000000005,"endTime":377.725,"body":"through a word-of-mouth recommendation that you found us too."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":377.725,"endTime":382.125,"body":"So to share the love in return, all you have to do is hit the share button on your podcast app"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":382.125,"endTime":387.40999999999997,"body":"when the episode is playing, and you'll be able to share it to whatever platform you like. Do it right now."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":387.40999999999997,"endTime":391.75,"body":"So now here's Simon's interview with Clare Williams from Hamish and Milo."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":392.68999999999994,"endTime":396.375,"body":"I'm super excited to welcome Clare Williams to the show today."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":396.375,"endTime":402.375,"body":"Clare is a primary teacher and educational psychotherapist, author, speaker, and advocate for"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":402.375,"endTime":404.23,"body":"children's mental health and well-being."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":404.23,"endTime":412.33500000000004,"body":"She was the coauthor and cocreator of Jigsaw PSHE and is a senior trainer and supervisor for trauma informed schools UK."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":412.71500000000003,"endTime":418.875,"body":"She's also worked in mental health and education provision and within child and adolescent mental"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":418.875,"endTime":423.76,"body":"health services and has led on national initiatives such as the social and emotional aspects"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":423.76,"endTime":428.645,"body":"of learning program, working as a consultant, leading on training curriculum, implementation,"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":428.645,"endTime":434.56499999999994,"body":"and development, as well as the local coordination of national PSHE CPD program."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":434.56499999999994,"endTime":441.9,"body":"Clare is also an Optimus education well-being award adviser and the author of the Hamish and Milo Well-being Resources."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":442.6,"endTime":446.595,"body":"Clare, you've clearly been a very busy person. Welcome to the show."},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":446.595,"endTime":449.095,"body":"Alright. It's a real delight to be here. Thank you."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":449.155,"endTime":452.05499999999995,"body":"Today, we're gonna talk about helping children with sadness."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":452.94899999999996,"endTime":457.98900000000003,"body":"For most children, sadness in life is something that's a perfectly natural feeling that will"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":457.98900000000003,"endTime":461.37,"body":"come and go, but for others, it can be more problematic."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":461.895,"endTime":464.395,"body":"As adults, how do we know the difference?"},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":464.615,"endTime":468.93499999999995,"body":"Do you know, I think it's really important to say at first that sadness is a very natural feeling"},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":468.93499999999995,"endTime":473.21000000000004,"body":"and that we all do feel it at some points in our life, But unless children are supported with"},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":473.21000000000004,"endTime":478.57000000000005,"body":"it and, you know, given permission to feel it and not feel alone with it, then it can place"},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":478.57000000000005,"endTime":480.83000000000004,"body":"us on a long term road to depression and anxiety."},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":481.56499999999994,"endTime":486.70399999999995,"body":"And so as adults, we need to know the context for children. What's happening to them?"},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":487.08500000000004,"endTime":492.88,"body":"Whether there's been a loss or an experience that might trigger a sadness or a sense of that"},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":493.019,"endTime":494.62,"body":"either in the present or in the past."},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":494.62,"endTime":497.34000000000003,"body":"You know, it might be the loss of a pet or a person in the family."},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":497.34000000000003,"endTime":500.995,"body":"It might be divorce or separation or not seeing a parent anymore."},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":500.995,"endTime":504.595,"body":"So, you know, it's really difficult to know the difference, actually."},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":504.595,"endTime":507.875,"body":"But I think more importantly, we need to be vigilant as adults."},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":507.875,"endTime":513.79,"body":"We need be proactive in giving them time and the right environment to feel safe enough to share"},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":513.85,"endTime":518.03,"body":"what's been happening to them and any losses and any sadness that's happened to them."},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":518.325,"endTime":524.485,"body":"When we know their context and children feel secure with them and we respond to them with a"},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":524.485,"endTime":528.98,"body":"way of being supportive and compassionate, then they're able to express it."},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":528.98,"endTime":534.66,"body":"So I think it's a difficult one to know, but I think it's more about the relationships we have"},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":534.66,"endTime":540.085,"body":"with them and helping them feel safe enough to be able to talk to us and be alongside us, and"},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":540.085,"endTime":543.845,"body":"for us actually to be alongside them with whatever feelings they bring."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":543.845,"endTime":546.7,"body":"Do you mind if we just unpack that a little bit?"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":546.7,"endTime":552.255,"body":"How do we practically get the kids to feel that sense of psychological safety with us so they're"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":552.575,"endTime":555.635,"body":"happy to talk about their feelings and opening up to us?"},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":555.695,"endTime":559.055,"body":"Well, I think it's absolutely a felt sense of being."},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":559.055,"endTime":565.52,"body":"You know, if that person is smiling, is, really welcoming to them, helps them almost feel through"},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":565.52,"endTime":571.364,"body":"their eye contact that they're safe to be with and really wants that child to feel that they"},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":571.364,"endTime":572.5649999999999,"body":"matter and that they belong."},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":572.5649999999999,"endTime":575.82,"body":"And I think it is something that we feel within us."},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":576.46,"endTime":582.06,"body":"And if children are kind of frightened or nervous or have feelings such as sadness, then I think"},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":582.06,"endTime":583.42,"body":"as soon as they can shut down."},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":583.42,"endTime":590.545,"body":"And it's, about really helping them to feel that we're trustworthy, we are really compassionate, that we're kind."},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":590.605,"endTime":591.825,"body":"You know, it is kindness."},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":591.91,"endTime":596.97,"body":"It's absolutely about kindness and that the children will sense that from our body language,"},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":597.03,"endTime":600.63,"body":"our our eye contact, just the way we are in the room with them."},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":600.63,"endTime":603.374,"body":"And it's something that we can't necessarily teach it."},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":603.374,"endTime":605.455,"body":"It's more about a sense of that."},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":605.455,"endTime":607.455,"body":"It's a hard one to unpick, actually, isn't it?"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":607.455,"endTime":612.21,"body":"It is. It is. And I know it's something that many of our listeners are interested in and can"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":612.21,"endTime":617.49,"body":"struggle with, because often the kids that need the help the most are the ones that are are most resistant to it."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":617.49,"endTime":623.705,"body":"How might sadness present at school, in the classroom, and affect a child's learning and behaviour?"},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":623.845,"endTime":630.83,"body":"So I think, again, it's very individual for different children, but I think it really can present as feeling unhappy."},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":631.0500000000001,"endTime":634.03,"body":"Children might look and appear very tearful."},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":634.1700000000001,"endTime":635.71,"body":"They might be very clingy."},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":635.85,"endTime":638.254,"body":"They might present as being very withdrawn."},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":638.475,"endTime":644.63,"body":"And those children that are quite often alone or lonely, it can be something that they lack"},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":645.03,"endTime":649.61,"body":"motivation, so they're really hard to draw in even if the environment is exciting."},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":649.75,"endTime":653.2950000000001,"body":"And they lack a real sense of joy or engagement in the world, really."},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":653.2950000000001,"endTime":655.535,"body":"So they can really present like that."},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":655.535,"endTime":658.115,"body":"But I think also it can affect our appetite."},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":658.1750000000001,"endTime":660.995,"body":"We sometimes don't eat so well if we're feeling sad."},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":661.08,"endTime":662.2,"body":"It kind of shuts us down."},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":662.2,"endTime":666.86,"body":"But I think there is another layer that some children can feel angry or volatile as well."},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":666.9200000000001,"endTime":672.895,"body":"Because it can really trigger that sense of defense if they are really deeply sad within."},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":672.955,"endTime":677.375,"body":"I think one of the other things that I've worked with with children is that sometimes they appear"},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":677.515,"endTime":680.25,"body":"almost too happy for the situation they're in."},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":680.25,"endTime":683.07,"body":"So there is that real kind of paradox there."},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":683.13,"endTime":687.815,"body":"And that's why what I said earlier that it's so important that we notice that we're vigilant,"},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":687.815,"endTime":692.155,"body":"that we understand the child's story so that we can be responsive to that."},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":692.2950000000001,"endTime":697.48,"body":"So, as you can see, it's a whole range of ways that that behaviour can present."},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":697.62,"endTime":702.6800000000001,"body":"And, you know, sometimes children feel very distant or even numb, disconnected to the situations"},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":702.98,"endTime":706.345,"body":"that they're in and the environment they're in or very tired and lethargic."},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":706.565,"endTime":708.8050000000001,"body":"You know, sadness very much takes us over."},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":708.8050000000001,"endTime":714.0500000000001,"body":"It can block our capacity to really engage in the world And, you know, it also we know it shuts"},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":714.0500000000001,"endTime":718.9300000000001,"body":"down the kind of thinking part of the brain and just makes you responsive in a fight, flight, freeze way."},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":718.9300000000001,"endTime":723.254,"body":"So, you know, you start to see those behaviours when sadness really takes hold."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":723.3140000000001,"endTime":727.395,"body":"That's really interesting because when we think about fight, flight, and freeze, most often"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":727.395,"endTime":730.855,"body":"we're thinking about kids that are very, very angry or very, very anxious."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":731.39,"endTime":735.5500000000001,"body":"But, of course, there are other emotional states that can bring that on for a child that's gonna"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":735.5500000000001,"endTime":738.27,"body":"impede the way they interact and thrive and succeed at school."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":738.27,"endTime":745.1850000000001,"body":"Can you tell us about your approach to helping pupils understand what sadness actually is and"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":745.1850000000001,"endTime":747.86,"body":"and what they can do to manage those feelings of sadness?"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":747.86,"endTime":749.22,"body":"Because emotions are hard, aren't they?"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":749.22,"endTime":755.085,"body":"You're trying to connect feelings in your body to psychological labels, and that's tough for some kids."},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":755.405,"endTime":762.304,"body":"Yeah. Absolutely. So in our program, we have a specific program around sadness called Finding Me."},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":762.365,"endTime":768.22,"body":"And we do this in a small group context with an adult that is that very compassionate, kind"},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":768.36,"endTime":772.785,"body":"and enables that child or the group of children actually to feel that they can trust them."},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":772.864,"endTime":777.905,"body":"We help the children through being involved in activities, discussions and some sort of group"},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":777.905,"endTime":782.65,"body":"tasks that just help them think about what sadness is and what it might look like."},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":782.71,"endTime":785.85,"body":"And we really do activities that are creative."},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":786.07,"endTime":791.124,"body":"So we might do, for example, one of my favorite activities actually, is called masquerade, where"},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":791.124,"endTime":795.364,"body":"children create a mask, very much like you might at a masquerade ball with, you know, sequins"},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":795.364,"endTime":799.13,"body":"and feathers and that kind of thing, which shows what the feeling is on the outside."},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":799.21,"endTime":801.71,"body":"What would people see if they were to meet you?"},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":802.01,"endTime":807.39,"body":"And then the beauty of this activity is we take away that mask and we say, what's the hidden feeling?"},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":807.705,"endTime":809.865,"body":"What might it look like? What color is it?"},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":809.865,"endTime":811.385,"body":"What texture might it have?"},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":811.385,"endTime":815.47,"body":"So what we're doing is then helping children to express things in a way that they perhaps might"},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":815.47,"endTime":817.09,"body":"have not even been asked to before."},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":817.23,"endTime":822.59,"body":"So what we're really trying to do is help them feel safe enough to explore it, to reflect on"},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":822.59,"endTime":825.364,"body":"it, to know that it's okay to have that feeling."},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":825.585,"endTime":830.385,"body":"And also, because they're in a small group setting, it's giving them the chance to know that"},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":830.385,"endTime":831.6650000000001,"body":"other people feel it too."},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":831.6650000000001,"endTime":836.28,"body":"So it's normalising it to a degree without diminishing the power of it."},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":836.28,"endTime":840.76,"body":"And I think the other thing with sadness is that often people try to cheer children up."},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":840.76,"endTime":845.235,"body":"They jolly them along so that they don't allow them to stay with that feeling."},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":845.235,"endTime":849.475,"body":"And that's very different in our approach because we want to be able to say, you know, if you"},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":849.475,"endTime":852.16,"body":"feel sad, it's a real feeling we've got to acknowledge."},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":852.3000000000001,"endTime":853.98,"body":"And you're not alone with that feeling."},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":853.98,"endTime":857.4200000000001,"body":"We're with you with that feeling, and I'm so sorry you're feeling that way."},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":857.4200000000001,"endTime":860.845,"body":"And it's about really opening up those conversations, really."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":860.845,"endTime":865.244,"body":"I think that's a really key point that you just brought up there because often when we see kids"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":865.244,"endTime":869.82,"body":"who are feeling sad or a little down I mean, certainly, I've been guilty of this as a parent"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":869.82,"endTime":872.14,"body":"when my kids have been feeling a bit sad or something."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":872.14,"endTime":875.34,"body":"I tried to sort of chivvie them up and cheer them up and distract them from their feeling."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":875.34,"endTime":879.695,"body":"But I guess that kind of, from their perspective, the adult is diminishing what I'm feeling"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":879.695,"endTime":882.734,"body":"and not recognizing and acknowledging it as a serious thing."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":882.734,"endTime":886.78,"body":"And and I guess the child then might wonder, is there something wrong with me for feeling this"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":886.78,"endTime":888.16,"body":"way because of the adult's reaction?"},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":888.379,"endTime":893.125,"body":"Absolutely that. And I think as parents, we wanna rescue, we want to quickly make them feel better."},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":893.285,"endTime":898.485,"body":"And, actually, if we can stay with that feeling, it's a really powerful communication to that"},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":898.485,"endTime":903.73,"body":"child that, you know, any feeling you have is okay and I'm with you with that feeling and we"},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":903.73,"endTime":905.89,"body":"can get through it and you can survive through it too."},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":905.89,"endTime":909.385,"body":"Because that's the other thing that we sometimes don't want to brush it aside."},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":909.385,"endTime":916.345,"body":"We want to say, actually, how do we empower children to have the feeling, but know it's survivable because that's a gift."},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":916.345,"endTime":917.8050000000001,"body":"That is a life gift."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":917.865,"endTime":922.34,"body":"Absolutely. Absolutely. And I think there are there are lots of adults who find it hard to sit with emotions."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":922.34,"endTime":925.379,"body":"And maybe if they'd had that support earlier on in life, you know, they wouldn't be looking"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":925.379,"endTime":931.895,"body":"for distractions in in all other kind of different ways, you know, like alcohol or drugs or social media even. God help them."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":931.895,"endTime":938.3100000000001,"body":"In your Hamish and Milo program, the kids make sock puppets, and they use the sock puppets to"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":938.3100000000001,"endTime":941.485,"body":"check-in at the beginning of the session and say how they're feeling."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":941.485,"endTime":944.6850000000001,"body":"What made you take this approach, and what advantage does it give you?"},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":944.6850000000001,"endTime":949.485,"body":"Do you know what? The sock puppets are absolutely magical, and, they've now become a really"},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":949.485,"endTime":951.049,"body":"integral part of the program."},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":951.049,"endTime":954.489,"body":"You know, some of our adults say, oh, the children, they're too cool for school."},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":954.489,"endTime":956.65,"body":"They're not really gonna buy into the puppet thing."},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":956.65,"endTime":958.09,"body":"And we're like, that's fine."},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":958.09,"endTime":964.0450000000001,"body":"You know, we don't ever force a child to do that, but we just say, let's just invite them to without any obligation."},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":964.4250000000001,"endTime":965.3050000000001,"body":"And do you know what?"},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":965.3050000000001,"endTime":968.35,"body":"Just see what happens, and then the magic really happens."},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":968.35,"endTime":973.809,"body":"Because the children make their own that are individualised to them, so it's a kind of fun engaging activity."},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":973.869,"endTime":976.0550000000001,"body":"It starts to get them, you know, interested."},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":976.535,"endTime":981.1750000000001,"body":"And if the adult makes a sock puppet too and just becomes playful, then the child gets pulled"},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":981.1750000000001,"endTime":984.395,"body":"into that kind of sense of fun as well and engagement."},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":984.86,"endTime":989.66,"body":"And then the real magic is when we help the children talk through the sock puppet."},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":989.66,"endTime":992.4350000000001,"body":"So they might tell us how the sock puppet is feeling."},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":992.4350000000001,"endTime":996.535,"body":"And, actually, of course, it gives us an insight into how they are feeling themselves."},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":996.6750000000001,"endTime":1000.139,"body":"You know, one of the most beautiful quotes I had from a senco was, you know, the children are"},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":1000.139,"endTime":1000.181,"body":"voicing things they've never voiced before through the puppets."},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":1000.181,"endTime":1000.85,"body":"And I just think, wow. That's when the magic's happened and allowed us to understand"},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":1008.905,"endTime":1009.864,"body":"What's happening for the children."},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":1009.864,"endTime":1011.484,"body":"So it's a distancing technique."},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":1011.624,"endTime":1017.76,"body":"It's a way of using it therapeutically that also allows us to hear the inner world of the child"},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":1017.76,"endTime":1023.78,"body":"in a way that doesn't mean that they're being judged or that they're on show. So that's the power. That's the magic."},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":1023.919,"endTime":1028.545,"body":"And really, I don't think I could have imagined that the sock puppets would be as powerful as"},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":1028.545,"endTime":1029.845,"body":"they've been in our programmes."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1030.064,"endTime":1032.405,"body":"I love that. It's super simple, super powerful."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1032.465,"endTime":1038.85,"body":"Sometimes when we talk to pupils, they know though they may know that they feel sad, but what"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1038.85,"endTime":1041.97,"body":"the adult is naturally going to then ask is, what do you feel sad about?"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1041.97,"endTime":1044.325,"body":"And sometimes they find that hard to put into words."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1044.405,"endTime":1045.7649999999999,"body":"What do we do in that situation?"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1045.7649999999999,"endTime":1048.325,"body":"What's the best way of supporting a child there?"},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":1048.325,"endTime":1052.325,"body":"Well, we really recognise that, you know, sometimes we do know what we're sad about, especially"},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":1052.325,"endTime":1053.605,"body":"if something's happening at the time."},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":1053.605,"endTime":1058.21,"body":"You know, grandparent is ill or we've got a pet that's just died or even divorce or separation,"},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":1058.21,"endTime":1059.73,"body":"we can feel sad about that."},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":1059.73,"endTime":1065.345,"body":"But, actually, sometimes sadness is kind of something that happened a while ago, and it's kind"},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":1065.345,"endTime":1070.465,"body":"of embedded within and become integral to us, which we don't even know what we're sad about."},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":1070.465,"endTime":1075.53,"body":"And that's a really painful place for a child to hold on to a feeling that's never been able"},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":1075.53,"endTime":1079.71,"body":"to be responded to or supported for them to feel those feelings."},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":1079.905,"endTime":1084.325,"body":"So if it does internalise, that does put a child in a very vulnerable position."},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":1084.5439999999999,"endTime":1089.35,"body":"And so through our programme, we really do give lots of different ways to explore those feelings"},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":1089.4099999999999,"endTime":1090.53,"body":"and the feelings of others."},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":1090.53,"endTime":1092.95,"body":"So obviously, it's through the sock puppet pets."},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":1093.01,"endTime":1099.3039999999999,"body":"We might draw what sadness looks like, helping them to use creative activities to express themselves."},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":1099.3039999999999,"endTime":1104.0249999999999,"body":"And then through that, sometimes unconscious feeling comes out as well that we can then respond"},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":1104.0249999999999,"endTime":1106.51,"body":"to and notice and acknowledge."},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":1106.8899999999999,"endTime":1110.57,"body":"And some of it's not about fixing it because we can't fix what's happened to a child."},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":1110.57,"endTime":1115.7849999999999,"body":"It's just about saying, actually, we're with you and we've seen what you're saying and acknowledged it."},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":1115.7849999999999,"endTime":1117.8049999999998,"body":"So it's validating their experience."},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":1118.3449999999998,"endTime":1121.0849999999998,"body":"Whatever that experience might be is actually huge."},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":1121.225,"endTime":1125.74,"body":"And we also know that the group experience of hearing other people that have got feelings like"},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":1125.74,"endTime":1128.2199999999998,"body":"this or just it kind of resonates or it connects."},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":1128.2199999999998,"endTime":1130.435,"body":"They might feel like, oh gosh. Yes."},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":1130.435,"endTime":1135.394,"body":"That's something that I've thought about or I hadn't known I'd thought about it, but that rings true for me now."},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":1135.394,"endTime":1138.695,"body":"So, the group experience really helps them develop new friendships."},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":1138.9599999999998,"endTime":1144.56,"body":"And this is a huge step to children not feeling alone, not feeling lonely, and sometimes that"},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":1144.56,"endTime":1147.175,"body":"can be very much the root of sadness."},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":1147.235,"endTime":1152.115,"body":"So I think the beauty of the resources and the programmes is the range of activities that children"},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":1152.115,"endTime":1156.869,"body":"can use to think together, but have permission to feel the feelings that they're having that"},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":1156.869,"endTime":1158.7099999999998,"body":"perhaps haven't been acknowledged before."},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":1158.7099999999998,"endTime":1163.685,"body":"So, you know, there's a real sense of relief in that if someone has seen and heard and understood"},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":1163.685,"endTime":1165.3049999999998,"body":"you even for the first time."},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":1165.365,"endTime":1171.4299999999998,"body":"And so I think that's why it's so powerful for us to not shy away from this work and actually"},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":1171.6499999999999,"endTime":1177.57,"body":"be able and prepared and have confidence to to run programmes like this that enable children"},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":1177.57,"endTime":1180.144,"body":"to have a voice and to have their voice heard."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1180.205,"endTime":1188.62,"body":"You can really imagine in this approach the bonds building between the pupils and the adults in the room, actually."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1188.62,"endTime":1193.4199999999998,"body":"And I can imagine that having a significant impact on the way the child thinks about coming"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1193.4199999999998,"endTime":1197.475,"body":"into school or starts to enjoy coming into school or there's a part of the school week that"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1197.475,"endTime":1201.915,"body":"they start to look forward to where they're meeting, like, like minded kids knowing they're not on their own."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1201.915,"endTime":1203.695,"body":"Is that what you see in practice in schools?"},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":1203.7549999999999,"endTime":1208.1299999999999,"body":"We've seen that. And we've had, stories now of children coming to school on Hamish and Milo"},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":1208.1299999999999,"endTime":1212.2099999999998,"body":"days when they've been emotionally school based avoidance, you know, issues around that and"},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":1212.2099999999998,"endTime":1213.4099999999999,"body":"fear of coming into school."},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":1213.4099999999999,"endTime":1218.5149999999999,"body":"And I think it is that real nurture, that real sense of connection with a key adult and, you"},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":1218.5149999999999,"endTime":1224.04,"body":"know, real relational practice that helps that child feel, you are so important to me. You matter."},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":1224.1999999999998,"endTime":1229.08,"body":"And the belonging, the sense of belonging that you have in a small group experience, for me,"},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":1229.08,"endTime":1232.385,"body":"I think that is the kind of the bedrock of this whole approach."},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":1232.385,"endTime":1237.105,"body":"It would only work, you know, any program is only really ever as good as the adult that's running it."},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":1237.105,"endTime":1239.425,"body":"And I think that it's about relational practice."},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":1239.425,"endTime":1244.3799999999999,"body":"It's about how does that child feel in the presence of that adult and that space as well."},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":1244.3799999999999,"endTime":1248.54,"body":"Because also we try and create the room or if there's space, sometimes it's done in a corridor."},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":1248.54,"endTime":1252.0449999999998,"body":"You know, sometimes people have got a tiny cupboard that they're trying to work with a small"},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":1252.0449999999998,"endTime":1253.405,"body":"group of children in a school."},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":1253.405,"endTime":1254.5249999999999,"body":"We know it's not ideal."},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":1254.5249999999999,"endTime":1258.7649999999999,"body":"But where it works beautifully is when they really do have a very safe place to come with with"},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":1258.7649999999999,"endTime":1260.6499999999999,"body":"that key adult that they know."},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":1260.87,"endTime":1265.6699999999998,"body":"And it's almost like a little safety place, a haven, and then the real powerful work can follow."},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":1265.6699999999998,"endTime":1271.3739999999998,"body":"And I think the nurture is massive, that relational practice, but then really giving children"},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":1271.3739999999998,"endTime":1275.0549999999998,"body":"opportunity to be taught about those social and emotional skills."},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":1275.0549999999998,"endTime":1282.05,"body":"So there's a real kind of depth of teaching, as well as responding, as well as listening and hearing and connecting."},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":1282.27,"endTime":1288.0549999999998,"body":"So it's very multifaceted and, it's exciting to see how this work is really, you know, being"},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":1288.195,"endTime":1290.915,"body":"developed and and seen in the schools that we're working with."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1290.915,"endTime":1296.37,"body":"Can you give me a sense of the sort of qualities that key adults would need or would have to"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1296.37,"endTime":1297.9699999999998,"body":"develop to to run this successfully?"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1297.9699999999998,"endTime":1301.7849999999999,"body":"It sounds like they need to be very sort of socially and emotionally aware, but what kind of"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1301.7849999999999,"endTime":1304.665,"body":"qualities that do they need to run to get the best out of the group?"},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":1304.665,"endTime":1310.28,"body":"So, of course, you know, it's something that many people just have a natural warmth, but not"},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":1310.28,"endTime":1311.5,"body":"all of us have that."},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":1311.56,"endTime":1316.78,"body":"So there is a real need for self awareness but it is about that sense of compassion."},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":1317.08,"endTime":1319.635,"body":"It is about being able to be kind."},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":1319.855,"endTime":1328.05,"body":"It is about that capacity to empathise and to be able to not be phased by what children bring to you as well."},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":1328.05,"endTime":1333.33,"body":"So that an adult is able to hear and to not judge something or to try to, you know, like jolly"},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":1333.33,"endTime":1339.3349999999998,"body":"children out of it but just able to respond and give empathy to what a child brings to that situation."},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":1339.3349999999998,"endTime":1340.935,"body":"I think empathy is huge, isn't it?"},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":1340.935,"endTime":1346.07,"body":"I think when we validate a child's feeling and just sit with that and say, wow, I'm so sorry"},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":1346.07,"endTime":1350.87,"body":"that you feel like that, but I'm really glad you told me, is a really powerful statement rather"},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":1350.87,"endTime":1355.475,"body":"than saying, come on, let's try and see if we can change this or or sort this out or change it for you."},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":1355.475,"endTime":1361.415,"body":"It's more about being able to to be empathic and to be relational in that way. So it's it's relationships."},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":1361.78,"endTime":1367.4599999999998,"body":"And, I think there are some elements you can teach, but some of it's integral to who we are as people."},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":1367.4599999999998,"endTime":1372.7849999999999,"body":"And, hopefully, sort of the nurturing adults that are really powerful in this work have a kind"},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":1372.7849999999999,"endTime":1374.465,"body":"of natural gift for it."},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":1374.465,"endTime":1381.4499999999998,"body":"But it's about then literally empowering them to be able to be valued in the work that they're doing as well."},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":1381.4499999999998,"endTime":1384.9699999999998,"body":"Because often it's the adults that are paid the least that, you know, are pulled into doing"},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":1384.9699999999998,"endTime":1386.57,"body":"this work and aren't always valued."},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":1386.57,"endTime":1390.5849999999998,"body":"So I think one of the other layers of our work is how do we value those adults?"},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":1390.5849999999998,"endTime":1396.925,"body":"How do we really show that they are supported, they are valued, that they are given the resources"},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":1396.985,"endTime":1399.73,"body":"that empower them to feel that they can make a difference."},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":1399.73,"endTime":1404.4499999999998,"body":"Because if they're supported, empowered, and nurtured and supported too, then they are more"},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":1404.4499999999998,"endTime":1407.685,"body":"equipped to be able to nurture those children. It's really powerful."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1407.904,"endTime":1415.024,"body":"In your programme, there's a lovely visualisation technique where the children picture a safe place in their mind."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1415.024,"endTime":1420.1499999999999,"body":"Can you talk us through and explain how it supports people to manage their emotions?"},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":1420.29,"endTime":1425.165,"body":"Yes. Of course. You know, we have to help children think about what sadness is, But then, we"},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":1425.165,"endTime":1429.245,"body":"do have to give them some helpful strategies and techniques to sort of manage some of those"},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":1429.245,"endTime":1431.5649999999998,"body":"feelings when they become difficult to manage."},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":1431.5649999999998,"endTime":1434.1899999999998,"body":"And, you know, we do this relationally, of course."},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":1434.1899999999998,"endTime":1439.149,"body":"But the safe place visualisation is a mindful technique that can be very powerful in allowing"},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":1439.149,"endTime":1444.5349999999999,"body":"the children to create an image in their mind's eye, which is calming, which helps them to feel"},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":1444.5349999999999,"endTime":1450.5549999999998,"body":"present, to feel kind of centred, to kind of help them breathe, to help them feel calm and regulated."},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":1450.83,"endTime":1455.8899999999999,"body":"So the activity very much does at first help them to breathe, to calm their body and their mind,"},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":1455.9499999999998,"endTime":1461.0249999999999,"body":"and then to kind of call to mind this image that helps them feel safe, secure."},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":1461.0249999999999,"endTime":1464.625,"body":"It's a place that feels good and calming for them."},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":1464.625,"endTime":1467.6,"body":"So it might be something like, well, it can be even their bedroom."},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":1467.6,"endTime":1470.3999999999999,"body":"It can be, a scene like, you know, a beach."},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":1470.3999999999999,"endTime":1473.3,"body":"It can be something that is what's powerful for them."},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":1473.425,"endTime":1478.145,"body":"What we get the children to do then is notice the sensations that they're feeling within their"},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":1478.145,"endTime":1483.48,"body":"body within that moment when they have that visual image and to notice how their senses are affected."},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":1483.54,"endTime":1487.0,"body":"So, what they might smell, what they might see, what they could touch."},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":1487.2199999999998,"endTime":1492.5649999999998,"body":"So, it really draws the image in and really creates a real depth to the image."},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":1492.965,"endTime":1497.384,"body":"And this is a an anchoring technique being able to bring something to mind."},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":1497.8449999999998,"endTime":1505.619,"body":"And then they can revisit that in times and be able to pull that sense of being back at times when they need it."},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":1505.619,"endTime":1511.175,"body":"So it's it's a very, very beautiful way of being able to manage some of the uncomfortable feelings"},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":1511.175,"endTime":1515.56,"body":"that we might have and learning something that they can use again and again."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1515.7199999999998,"endTime":1520.12,"body":"If you're a teacher or a school leader listening to this podcast and you're working with kids"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1520.12,"endTime":1524.965,"body":"in your class that you suspect that they've got persistent feelings of sadness, what's the first"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1524.965,"endTime":1527.365,"body":"step you can take to towards helping them?"},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":1527.365,"endTime":1531.205,"body":"I think the first thing to say is know your children, you know, know what's happening or be"},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":1531.205,"endTime":1536.1,"body":"curious and ask those questions, really, And then be very vigilant and create opportunities"},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":1536.2389999999998,"endTime":1538.4789999999998,"body":"for them to talk to you or another key adult."},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":1538.4789999999998,"endTime":1540.4199999999998,"body":"So someone that's really good at relationships."},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":1540.879,"endTime":1545.904,"body":"Notice their friendships too and help them to be connected to someone that they can talk to or be with."},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":1545.904,"endTime":1550.0049999999999,"body":"I think it's about kindness, being curious, checking in with them regularly."},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":1550.0649999999998,"endTime":1554.2099999999998,"body":"So really building that sense of safety that we talked about right at the beginning because"},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":1554.2099999999998,"endTime":1557.269,"body":"that's the first step before you do any of this deeper work."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1557.33,"endTime":1562.2749999999999,"body":"And you started talking about your approach, which is the Hamish and Milo approach."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1562.2749999999999,"endTime":1566.995,"body":"And it's not just about sadness, it's about supporting kids with a range of social and emotional learning."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1566.995,"endTime":1571.82,"body":"If our listeners want to find out more about the Hamish and Milo approach and using it in their"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1571.82,"endTime":1575.84,"body":"school, can you tell us a little bit about how it works and how schools get access to it?"},{"speaker":"Clare Williams: Of course. So Hamish and Milo is a series of 10, actually. 10","startTime":1576.06,"endTime":1581.5749999999998,"body":"10 week programs around key emotion themes."},{"speaker":"Clare Williams: Of course. So Hamish and Milo is a series of 10, actually. 10","startTime":1581.5749999999998,"endTime":1584.455,"body":"So silence is 1, of course. Angry feelings is another."},{"speaker":"Clare Williams: Of course. So Hamish and Milo is a series of 10, actually. 10","startTime":1584.455,"endTime":1587.7549999999999,"body":"Change, transition, resilience, friendship, and self esteem."},{"speaker":"Clare Williams: Of course. So Hamish and Milo is a series of 10, actually. 10","startTime":1588.05,"endTime":1593.59,"body":"It's an SEMH intervention program, really, or an emotions curriculum, and it sits alongside PSHE."},{"speaker":"Clare Williams: Of course. So Hamish and Milo is a series of 10, actually. 10","startTime":1594.05,"endTime":1598.0349999999999,"body":"Our website, hamishandmilo.org, has so much more information about the program."},{"speaker":"Clare Williams: Of course. So Hamish and Milo is a series of 10, actually. 10","startTime":1598.0349999999999,"endTime":1602.7549999999999,"body":"And we've also got a digital dashboard called Navigator, which helps you track progress and"},{"speaker":"Clare Williams: Of course. So Hamish and Milo is a series of 10, actually. 10","startTime":1602.7549999999999,"endTime":1605.5,"body":"show impact for groups of children and even individuals."},{"speaker":"Clare Williams: Of course. So Hamish and Milo is a series of 10, actually. 10","startTime":1605.5,"endTime":1610.08,"body":"So it's really relevant for reviewing IPs or EHCPs and provision mapping."},{"speaker":"Clare Williams: Of course. So Hamish and Milo is a series of 10, actually. 10","startTime":1610.3,"endTime":1616.7749999999999,"body":"So, you know, we also run fortnightly information sessions online for people to just come along and find out more."},{"speaker":"Clare Williams: Of course. So Hamish and Milo is a series of 10, actually. 10","startTime":1616.7749999999999,"endTime":1622.52,"body":"But it's lots of resources around those key emotion themes in a structured, but also very flexible"},{"speaker":"Clare Williams: Of course. So Hamish and Milo is a series of 10, actually. 10","startTime":1622.74,"endTime":1627.6399999999999,"body":"approach to really teach the social emotional skills and respond to children's social emotional needs."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1627.78,"endTime":1632.375,"body":"And I'll put direct links to your website in the episode description for people that are interested."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1632.375,"endTime":1636.2949999999998,"body":"All you gotta do is tap on this episode as it's playing, and it will bring up a text description"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1636.2949999999998,"endTime":1640.9599999999998,"body":"of the episode, and the link to the Hamish at Milo website will be there and waiting for you."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1641.1,"endTime":1644.0,"body":"Finally, we ask this of all our guests."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1644.4599999999998,"endTime":1648.935,"body":"Who is the key figure that's influenced you, or what is the key book that you've read that's"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1648.935,"endTime":1652.135,"body":"had the biggest impact on your approach to working with children?"},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":1652.135,"endTime":1654.11,"body":"Do you know what? I could speak forever about this."},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":1654.11,"endTime":1655.73,"body":"I've got too many to really mention."},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":1655.87,"endTime":1660.59,"body":"It's so hard because I think there are multiple people that have influenced me and my work."},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":1660.59,"endTime":1666.0649999999998,"body":"But I think, you know, attachment theory, John Bowlby relationships is so, so powerful."},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":1666.125,"endTime":1670.58,"body":"It's connection and relationship that's at the very heart of everything we do to help children"},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":1670.58,"endTime":1672.82,"body":"feel safe and secure and able to thrive."},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":1672.82,"endTime":1677.8049999999998,"body":"But other people, I think, are amazing are Bruce Perry, Dan Hughes, Dan Siegel. I can't really stop."},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":1677.8049999999998,"endTime":1683.665,"body":"So I think they're all wonderful, and there is such a lot around, you know, relationships and connection and safety."},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":1683.725,"endTime":1686.37,"body":"So I think, yeah, attachment theory, John Bowlby."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1686.37,"endTime":1688.37,"body":"Clare, it's like you're describing the bookcase behind me."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1688.37,"endTime":1689.889,"body":"Thank you for being on the show."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1689.889,"endTime":1693.009,"body":"You've shared such useful practical advice today."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1693.009,"endTime":1694.4499999999998,"body":"It's been an absolute pleasure."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1694.4499999999998,"endTime":1695.3149999999998,"body":"Thank you for your time."},{"speaker":"Clare Williams","startTime":1695.3149999999998,"endTime":1697.894,"body":"Thank you so much. It's been a real pleasure for me as well."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1698.435,"endTime":1700.3739999999998,"body":"Oh, I really enjoyed that interview."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1700.435,"endTime":1705.1589999999999,"body":"Clare is so good and knowledgeable, and her advice is so practical."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1705.4599999999998,"endTime":1710.1999999999998,"body":"Yeah. I know. I'll put a direct link to her Hamish and Milo website in the episode description."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1710.58,"endTime":1715.0649999999998,"body":"If you think it would be useful to use in your school, open your podcast app now, and you can"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1715.0649999999998,"endTime":1716.905,"body":"click or tap directly through."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1716.905,"endTime":1718.985,"body":"And that's all we've got time for for today."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1718.985,"endTime":1721.0849999999998,"body":"I hope you find the content useful."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1721.5449999999998,"endTime":1725.04,"body":"And if you have, don't forget to leave us a rating and review."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1725.1799999999998,"endTime":1729.725,"body":"It'll take you 30 seconds and it will really help other listeners to find us."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1729.885,"endTime":1731.185,"body":"So thanks for doing that."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1731.485,"endTime":1736.465,"body":"We hope you have a brilliant week, and we can't wait to see you next time on School Behavior Secrets. Bye for now."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1736.685,"endTime":1738.09,"body":"Bye."}]}