{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":87.42999999999999,"endTime":96.51499999999999,"body":"ODD, which is oppositional defiant disorder, and PDA, which is pathological demand avoidance syndrome, can look similar."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":96.735,"endTime":106.56,"body":"Refusal, not following instructions or requests, not doing work, defiance, rejecting authority, that kind of thing. But they're actually very different conditions."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":106.56,"endTime":114.395,"body":"And when it comes to supporting pupils with additional needs in school, having the right strategy to support the right child is crucial."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":114.85499999999999,"endTime":120.315,"body":"So join us for an essentials episode of the School Behaviour Secrets podcast to find out more."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":121.35999999999999,"endTime":125.94,"body":"Welcome to the School Behaviour Secrets podcast. I'm your host, Simon Currigan."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":126.0,"endTime":132.694,"body":"My co host is Emma Shackleton, and we're obsessed with helping teachers, school leaders, parents, and of course, students"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":132.755,"endTime":135.655,"body":"when classroom behaviour gets in the way of success."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":135.714,"endTime":141.92,"body":"We're gonna share the tried and tested secrets to classroom management, behavioural special needs, whole school strategy, and"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":141.92,"endTime":146.015,"body":"more, all with the aim of helping your students reach true potential."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":146.23499999999999,"endTime":153.14999999999998,"body":"Plus, we'll be letting you eavesdrop on our conversations with thought leaders from around the world, so you'll get to hear"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":153.14999999999998,"endTime":156.82999999999998,"body":"the latest evidence based strategies before anyone else."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":156.82999999999998,"endTime":161.52499999999998,"body":"This is the School Behaviour Secrets podcast. Hi, everyone."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":161.52499999999998,"endTime":169.305,"body":"Simon Currigan here back with another popular essentials episode of School Behaviour Secrets where we dive into some key strategies"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":169.52499999999998,"endTime":176.1,"body":"and insights from an earlier episode that can make a real difference for the students that you work with right away."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":176.1,"endTime":182.21499999999997,"body":"And remember, if you're loving the show, please do us a favour and hit that subscribe button in your podcast app so you never"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":182.21499999999997,"endTime":185.195,"body":"miss out on our latest tips and tricks."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":185.33499999999998,"endTime":193.6,"body":"So today, we're gonna go back to episode 93 where my co host, Emma Shackleton, and I discuss the differences between ODD,"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":193.66,"endTime":198.89499999999998,"body":"which is oppositional defiance disorder, and PDA, pathological demand avoidance."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":199.83499999999998,"endTime":208.12,"body":"ODD is a condition where pupils find it hard to manage their impulses and are driven by a really strong need for control."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":208.5,"endTime":216.505,"body":"Whereas PDA is a condition where anxiety is much more of a massive factor and the children aren't necessarily seeking control."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":217.045,"endTime":224.7,"body":"What they're trying to do is escape overwhelming demands, which is a slightly different thing and needs a different approach,"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":224.7,"endTime":229.51999999999998,"body":"but it can result in what look from the outside like very similar behaviours."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":230.20499999999998,"endTime":233.105,"body":"So let's hit play and find out more."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":236.045,"endTime":240.94,"body":"So ODD stands for oppositional defiant disorder."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":241.48,"endTime":250.995,"body":"Oppositional means opposing, as in taking an opposing view or being opposed to doing something you've been asked to do."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":251.135,"endTime":259.81,"body":"So most commonly in school, this would look like refusing to do your work, or follow the teacher's instructions or actually"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":259.81,"endTime":263.66999999999996,"body":"doing the exact opposite of what they've been asked to do."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":264.04499999999996,"endTime":267.265,"body":"If you ask them to write in pen, they'd get a pencil."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":267.725,"endTime":273.44,"body":"If you ask them to walk quietly down the hall, they'd run and shout, that kind of thing."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":273.65999999999997,"endTime":280.32,"body":"Interestingly, ODD is actually a form of impulse control disorder. So what is impulse control disorder?"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":280.615,"endTime":285.895,"body":"So Viktor Frankl famously wrote there's a gap between stimulus and response."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":285.895,"endTime":293.73,"body":"So we have an idea, something happens to us and then we have an idea about how to react and there's a gap where we evaluate"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":294.03,"endTime":297.135,"body":"whether that's a good idea or not and then we act."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":297.21500000000003,"endTime":304.095,"body":"And an impulse control disorder means that that gap is either very short or hardly existent at all so we're doing very little"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":304.095,"endTime":307.6,"body":"assessment of an idea that we might get before we carry it out."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":307.6,"endTime":312.96000000000004,"body":"So someone might take our pencil and our immediate thought might be, I'm gonna thump them, and then there's a gap where we"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":312.96000000000004,"endTime":318.455,"body":"might evaluate that idea and think about whether it's gonna get us into trouble and how it's gonna affect our relationship"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":318.515,"endTime":320.755,"body":"with the other child before we then act."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":320.755,"endTime":325.04999999999995,"body":"And we might then decide to change our action or we might decide to to carry on and fund them."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":325.04999999999995,"endTime":328.51,"body":"But there is an assessment there that requires a little bit of time."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":328.73,"endTime":335.115,"body":"And if you have difficulty controlling your impulses, that idea bubbles up into your head and before you've assessed it in"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":335.115,"endTime":339.055,"body":"any great depth, your body just sort of executes that idea."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":339.14,"endTime":348.12,"body":"And the thing to bear in mind when we're talking about ODD here is that no two children with ODD are the same, and we have to treat them as individuals."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":348.78499999999997,"endTime":352.16499999999996,"body":"But there are some common threads to their behaviour."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":352.30499999999995,"endTime":354.385,"body":"So let's dig down and have a look at that."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":354.385,"endTime":360.09000000000003,"body":"ODD tends not to be diagnosed until the age of 4 and above for very good reasons."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":360.30999999999995,"endTime":366.70500000000004,"body":"Before that age, it's quite normal for kids to have tantrums and refusals when they're asked to do something."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":366.845,"endTime":369.405,"body":"Many children go through the terrible twos."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":369.405,"endTime":374.09000000000003,"body":"They age when they start to get a little bit of independence. They're able to move around safely."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":374.15,"endTime":383.30499999999995,"body":"They can communicate effectively, and they discover that they don't like adults putting limits on their wants or their actions. They know what they want."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":383.30499999999995,"endTime":390.919,"body":"They wanna go out and get it without an adult standing in their way, and that can result in tantrums and saying no and stamping your feet and that kinda thing."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":390.919,"endTime":399.15999999999997,"body":"Now most kids will grow out of those tantrums by the age of 4 or at least grow out of having them frequently because they're"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":399.15999999999997,"endTime":402.505,"body":"starting to learn to regulate their emotions a little."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":402.505,"endTime":407.885,"body":"They're starting to accept social expectations, and they're becoming a little bit more reasonable."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":408.0,"endTime":414.65999999999997,"body":"But if those tantrums carry on for longer, then it might be a sign that something else is going on."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":414.79999999999995,"endTime":424.63,"body":"It could be, not necessarily is, but it could be a sign that the child's behaviour is being driven by something like oppositional defiance disorder."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":424.85,"endTime":431.11,"body":"Interestingly as well, ODD can actually develop in teenagers as kids reach adolescence."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":431.865,"endTime":439.49,"body":"So children who were quite easygoing and reasonable at primary school can suddenly change their behaviour."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":439.57000000000005,"endTime":443.99,"body":"And again, this might be a sign of teenage onset ODD."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":444.28999999999996,"endTime":451.875,"body":"And just to be clear here, this is going beyond the stereotype of an argumentative or grumpy teenager."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":452.495,"endTime":461.46000000000004,"body":"We're talking about significantly challenging behaviours at home and at school that are predominantly oppositional in nature."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":461.67999999999995,"endTime":467.79499999999996,"body":"The tricky thing is that ODD often presents in children alongside other conditions."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":468.33500000000004,"endTime":480.17999999999995,"body":"So you'll often see a child with a diagnosis of attention deficit hyperactivity disorder and ODD, or they might have autism and ODD."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":480.72,"endTime":488.20399999999995,"body":"In fact, about 4 out of 10 students with ADHD also end up with an ODD diagnosis."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":488.58500000000004,"endTime":498.05999999999995,"body":"And that makes sense really if you think about that idea that it's an impulse control disorder, because that's a a strong factor of ADHD too."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":498.12,"endTime":508.06499999999994,"body":"Obviously, ODD can only be diagnosed by a medical professional, not by a teacher or anybody who works in education. Okay."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":508.125,"endTime":515.57,"body":"So let's compare that to pathological demand avoidance or PDA, sometimes called PDA syndrome."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":516.1899999999999,"endTime":526.954,"body":"PDA is a very specific form of autism that presents a little differently to autism generally. So it can be easily overlooked."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":527.174,"endTime":535.52,"body":"But one of the important things to remember is children with PDA often have all of the related difficulties or challenges"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":535.9,"endTime":540.72,"body":"related to autism, but they're not necessarily as obvious in the classroom."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":541.485,"endTime":547.745,"body":"So there's a difference between demand avoidance and pathological demand avoidance."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":548.045,"endTime":556.49,"body":"Yeah. Demand avoidance is something we all get as adults or kids, and it essentially means not wanting to do something that you've been asked to do."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":556.49,"endTime":561.614,"body":"So someone's placed a demand on you, then you don't like it. You're resistant to that demand."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":561.614,"endTime":563.954,"body":"There's actually a term for it in psychology called reactance."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":564.335,"endTime":570.01,"body":"Demand avoidance from time to time in children is quite common depending on the task or what we've asked them to do."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":570.01,"endTime":572.91,"body":"We all have things that we don't like doing."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":573.21,"endTime":574.97,"body":"We don't like being made to do them."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":574.97,"endTime":579.3149999999999,"body":"We don't like being told to do things at certain times, then we all put up a little resistance."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":579.775,"endTime":589.05,"body":"The key thing here is that feeling does not have a negative impact on our bodies or our biology, and it doesn't represent"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":589.05,"endTime":596.11,"body":"a sort of general response to people placing demands on us or asking us to do certain things. Now PDA is different."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":596.655,"endTime":602.595,"body":"The pathological in pathological demand avoidance means abnormal or dysfunctional."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":603.135,"endTime":613.9300000000001,"body":"If you have PDA and someone places a demand on you, your body reacts with a rush of stress chemicals that fuel huge amounts of anxiety."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":614.535,"endTime":620.715,"body":"They put you in this heightened emotional state that feels like it's going to overwhelm you."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":620.9350000000001,"endTime":631.4200000000001,"body":"And the more those demands feel outside of your control, the more anxious you become until you reach a point where you can't cope with those feelings anymore."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":632.015,"endTime":637.955,"body":"So unsurprisingly, one of the behaviours you'll see in class is resistance to tasks."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":638.254,"endTime":641.075,"body":"Usually, this starts with what's called social manipulation."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":641.76,"endTime":648.559,"body":"That's where the child bargains or they negotiate with you about how the task will be done or whether it needs to be done,"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":648.559,"endTime":650.739,"body":"or maybe they engage in task avoidance."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":650.985,"endTime":657.1650000000001,"body":"So instead of getting on with a piece of work, they'll spend 20 minutes sharpening every pencil they can find in the classroom"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":657.225,"endTime":660.445,"body":"or looking through their drawer for just the right ruler."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":660.89,"endTime":667.609,"body":"They find every sort of non violent means of avoiding that task to try and escape the anxiety associated with it."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":667.609,"endTime":671.945,"body":"Another behaviour that you could easily miss is during whole class input."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":672.405,"endTime":680.14,"body":"If the child feels like they can't cope with the demands of having to sit and listen to the teacher, they might use a strategy"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":680.28,"endTime":687.4200000000001,"body":"such as putting on a face that looks like they're listening, but their mind is actually deliberately focused elsewhere."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":688.075,"endTime":690.335,"body":"It's kind of like a passive resistance."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":690.7950000000001,"endTime":699.02,"body":"And then, of course, if you keep pressuring and pressuring the child and this social manipulation technique isn't effective"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":699.16,"endTime":705.58,"body":"for them, their anxiety is going to shoot up, and you're likely to see the child become overwhelmed."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":705.715,"endTime":713.155,"body":"And that's where you're going to get a meltdown or see the child engaging in other escape behaviour, maybe walking out of"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":713.155,"endTime":720.28,"body":"the classroom or refusing, for example, because you're pushing them towards that classic fight or flight response."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":720.66,"endTime":728.945,"body":"That means while for other children, setting firm expectations and holding them to account can be really effective and actually"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":728.945,"endTime":733.82,"body":"improve behaviour, for children with PDA, the opposite is true."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":734.12,"endTime":738.78,"body":"Setting firm expectations and holding them to account is going to be counterproductive."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":739.4350000000001,"endTime":742.495,"body":"It's like throwing more pressure into the pressure cooker."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":742.7950000000001,"endTime":748.015,"body":"At some point, the walls won't hold anymore, and the whole thing's gonna blow."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":750.2,"endTime":759.785,"body":"Okay. So that seems like a good place to press pause, but you can see why picking the right strategy for supporting these children is so important."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":759.785,"endTime":768.549,"body":"Because in either case, a strategy that would work for ODD, say, might accidentally make the anxieties of a child with PDA"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":768.549,"endTime":774.33,"body":"worse, and then you'd see the knock on effect of more challenging behavior in the classroom and vice versa."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":774.515,"endTime":785.83,"body":"If you want to know more, then please open the episode description and click the link that I put in there for you to head back to the original episode. That's episode number 93."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":785.97,"endTime":788.2900000000001,"body":"Thanks for tuning in to another essentials episode."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":788.2900000000001,"endTime":793.749,"body":"Your feedback is the spark that keeps the School Behaviour Secrets team alight."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":793.9150000000001,"endTime":797.355,"body":"If you've enjoyed today's episode, please rate and review the podcast."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":797.355,"endTime":799.934,"body":"It makes a huge difference to us and the podcast."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":800.235,"endTime":803.51,"body":"I hope you have a brilliant week, and I'll catch you next time."}]}