{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":87.58999999999999,"endTime":94.33,"body":"Ever wondered why 'connection before correction' is so crucial when supporting students with SEMH needs?"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":94.55,"endTime":105.74499999999999,"body":"Discover Adele Bates's insights and real life stories, including how a small gesture transformed behaviour for her and also when things went wrong."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":105.74499999999999,"endTime":110.24499999999999,"body":"That's all in this week's School Behaviour Secrets essentials. Tune in now."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":110.705,"endTime":115.425,"body":"Welcome to the School Behaviour Secrets podcast. I'm your host, Simon Currigan."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":115.425,"endTime":122.13999999999999,"body":"My co host is Emma Shackleton, and we're obsessed with with helping teachers, school leaders, parents, and, of course, students"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":122.13999999999999,"endTime":125.12,"body":"when classroom behaviour gets in the way of success."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":125.17999999999999,"endTime":131.339,"body":"We're gonna share the tried and tested secrets to classroom management, behavioural special needs, whole school strategy, and"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":131.339,"endTime":135.52499999999998,"body":"more, all with the aim of helping your students reach their true potential."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":135.665,"endTime":142.624,"body":"Plus, we'll be letting you eavesdrop on our conversations with thought leaders from around the world, so you'll get to hear"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":142.624,"endTime":146.244,"body":"the latest evidence based strategies before anyone else."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":146.304,"endTime":150.51,"body":"This is the School Behaviour Secrets podcast. Hi."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":150.51,"endTime":157.39,"body":"Simon Currigan here from Beacon School Support welcoming you back to another bite sized essentials episode of School Behaviour"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":157.39,"endTime":165.745,"body":"Secrets where we revisit key discussions from previous podcasts that can make a real difference in your classroom."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":165.745,"endTime":173.204,"body":"In today's essentials episode, we're sharing part of an interview I had with behaviour and educational specialist, Adele Bates,"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":173.505,"endTime":178.164,"body":"where we explored the powerful concept of 'connection before correction'."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":178.68,"endTime":186.039,"body":"We'll jump into the conversation where Adele shares practical examples of how this approach can transform behaviour in high"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":186.039,"endTime":191.515,"body":"needs SEMH students and when things for her didn't go quite as she planned."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":191.815,"endTime":199.355,"body":"If you find this episode valuable, please subscribe and share the School Behaviour Secrets podcast with your friends and colleagues."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":199.575,"endTime":207.81,"body":"I'd be really appreciative if you did so because that prompts the algorithm to share this information in the show with more"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":207.81,"endTime":216.39,"body":"school leaders and teachers just like you so we can get this important information out there to help as many classrooms and students and teachers as possible."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":216.53,"endTime":219.26999999999998,"body":"And now here's the interview with Adele Bates."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":221.67499999999998,"endTime":224.57399999999998,"body":"You talk about Kim Golding's idea of connection before correction."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":224.79399999999998,"endTime":230.095,"body":"Can you start to talk through what this idea is and why it's so important with these high needs kids?"},{"speaker":"Adele Bates","startTime":230.155,"endTime":238.95,"body":"Yes. So to begin with, very simply, it's the concept that if we connect with someone before we try and correct their behaviour,"},{"speaker":"Adele Bates","startTime":239.17,"endTime":240.71,"body":"we're way more likely to be successful."},{"speaker":"Adele Bates","startTime":240.85,"endTime":250.305,"body":"And we know that because we know the manager who keeps calling you Sara when your name's Sarah, you just have a little less"},{"speaker":"Adele Bates","startTime":250.305,"endTime":254.965,"body":"respect for that manager because they haven't taken the time to get your name right."},{"speaker":"Adele Bates","startTime":255.105,"endTime":264.21000000000004,"body":"For those managers who don't connect with you, who don't take the time to learn your name, you you're not quite as easy to form a relationship with. And that's a tiny example."},{"speaker":"Adele Bates","startTime":264.43,"endTime":272.04999999999995,"body":"So with the pupils, it's that idea that if we want to correct someone's behaviour, we need to connect with them as humans first."},{"speaker":"Adele Bates","startTime":272.27,"endTime":280.554,"body":"Now, there is an argument that, and in some schools this works, that you go in and you are completely zero tolerance and very"},{"speaker":"Adele Bates","startTime":280.554,"endTime":285.93399999999997,"body":"disciplined, and they all just have to have high expectations around behaviour and get on with it. And it works."},{"speaker":"Adele Bates","startTime":286.235,"endTime":289.52,"body":"It works, I would argue, for compliance."},{"speaker":"Adele Bates","startTime":290.29999999999995,"endTime":297.28,"body":"And what always worries me about that approach is there is a difference between compliance and learning."},{"speaker":"Adele Bates","startTime":297.41999999999996,"endTime":306.08500000000004,"body":"We can have an entire class silent, working inverted commas, and then at the end of their lesson, you find how many pictures of penises have been drawn."},{"speaker":"Adele Bates","startTime":307.58500000000004,"endTime":315.105,"body":"So the idea between connecting first is that you start to build that relationship, which evolves trust, which evolves into"},{"speaker":"Adele Bates","startTime":315.105,"endTime":320.18,"body":"things like, I can support you to do things that you never thought you could dream that you could do."},{"speaker":"Adele Bates","startTime":320.24,"endTime":328.41999999999996,"body":"I can create a safe space for you to try and fail, to try reading in front of the class and fail and it doesn't matter because you're safe emotionally."},{"speaker":"Adele Bates","startTime":328.56,"endTime":336.964,"body":"And then the next question I usually get asked is, yeah, but we haven't got time to find out everybody's favorite football team. We haven't. We've got 33 in a class. I'm an art teacher."},{"speaker":"Adele Bates","startTime":336.964,"endTime":341.125,"body":"I teach 20 year 7 classes a week for 42 minutes."},{"speaker":"Adele Bates","startTime":341.125,"endTime":347.75,"body":"And there's often this idea that this approach of connection before correction has to be this massive 'be the child's best friend'."},{"speaker":"Adele Bates","startTime":347.80999999999995,"endTime":351.03,"body":"That is not the case at all and I have the best example to show."},{"speaker":"Adele Bates","startTime":351.09000000000003,"endTime":358.71000000000004,"body":"So I was on the way back from a train in London and I was on the train and it was during a point during the pandemic."},{"speaker":"Adele Bates","startTime":358.80499999999995,"endTime":365.004,"body":"It was at a point where masks were mandatory on public transport and there were these 2 lads standing there about 15, 16 about"},{"speaker":"Adele Bates","startTime":365.004,"endTime":369.544,"body":"a foot taller than me and they had their masks around their chins really usefully."},{"speaker":"Adele Bates","startTime":369.845,"endTime":377.17999999999995,"body":"And I sat there and I thought okay I want to correct that essentially. But I didn't know these teenagers."},{"speaker":"Adele Bates","startTime":377.32000000000005,"endTime":381.65999999999997,"body":"They weren't even from the school that I'd just been in. So I had a choice."},{"speaker":"Adele Bates","startTime":381.88,"endTime":389.95500000000004,"body":"In that second, I could have gone in and done what a lot of people do, I must say, to teenagers in our society."},{"speaker":"Adele Bates","startTime":389.95500000000004,"endTime":393.07500000000005,"body":"That's a whole other issue, but teenagers are very discriminated against."},{"speaker":"Adele Bates","startTime":393.07500000000005,"endTime":397.33500000000004,"body":"I write about it in the book. I could have gone in hard. 'Oi. You should be doing this."},{"speaker":"Adele Bates","startTime":397.635,"endTime":399.95399999999995,"body":"You need to follow the rules, yada yada yada'."},{"speaker":"Adele Bates","startTime":399.95399999999995,"endTime":407.18999999999994,"body":"But I didn't know them, and they were a foot taller than me. And I was on a train. There was no support network. There was no staff. There was no detention."},{"speaker":"Adele Bates","startTime":407.32899999999995,"endTime":410.21000000000004,"body":"So, I mean, they could have actually just told me where to go quite easily."},{"speaker":"Adele Bates","startTime":410.21000000000004,"endTime":413.75,"body":"And so what I did instead is that I connected with them first."},{"speaker":"Adele Bates","startTime":414.13,"endTime":417.225,"body":"And so I knew this wasn't the case, but it was my best opener."},{"speaker":"Adele Bates","startTime":417.225,"endTime":420.58500000000004,"body":"I said, 'Oh, are you from that school that I've just been in? I've just been working in'."},{"speaker":"Adele Bates","startTime":420.58500000000004,"endTime":424.525,"body":"And they said, 'Oh, no, miss, but from this other school'. And it was hilarious. They called me Miss."},{"speaker":"Adele Bates","startTime":425.225,"endTime":426.42499999999995,"body":"They didn't know I was a teacher."},{"speaker":"Adele Bates","startTime":426.42499999999995,"endTime":428.525,"body":"I must have, like, a whole teacher persona."},{"speaker":"Adele Bates","startTime":428.6,"endTime":430.36,"body":"And I said, 'oh, what's that school like?'"},{"speaker":"Adele Bates","startTime":430.36,"endTime":432.43999999999994,"body":"'What's it like compared to the school I've been in?'"},{"speaker":"Adele Bates","startTime":432.43999999999994,"endTime":435.1,"body":"What's the, you know, what's the local gossip between the postcodes?"},{"speaker":"Adele Bates","startTime":435.32000000000005,"endTime":438.93999999999994,"body":"And they kind of entertained me in this kind of small talk conversation."},{"speaker":"Adele Bates","startTime":439.15999999999997,"endTime":446.975,"body":"And listeners, as I was talking, this doesn't really work in a podcast so I'm gonna describe it, all I had to do was mime"},{"speaker":"Adele Bates","startTime":447.11400000000003,"endTime":452.07500000000005,"body":"bringing the mask up from their chin and putting it on their nose. That's all I had to do."},{"speaker":"Adele Bates","startTime":452.07500000000005,"endTime":457.40999999999997,"body":"I did not even mention the masks at all."},{"speaker":"Adele Bates","startTime":457.549,"endTime":462.98900000000003,"body":"And as we were talking, they saw me do that little movement and they both quickly put their masks up."},{"speaker":"Adele Bates","startTime":462.98900000000003,"endTime":465.71000000000004,"body":"And of course, the best thing I was excited about was like, oh my goodness."},{"speaker":"Adele Bates","startTime":465.71000000000004,"endTime":467.889,"body":"That's an example of connection before correction."},{"speaker":"Adele Bates","startTime":468.10900000000004,"endTime":471.07000000000005,"body":"But it's so beautiful because I didn't know those kids."},{"speaker":"Adele Bates","startTime":471.07000000000005,"endTime":472.70399999999995,"body":"I I didn't have a relationship with them."},{"speaker":"Adele Bates","startTime":472.70399999999995,"endTime":479.924,"body":"I didn't know which football team they supported or who their auntie Joan was or I didn't know anything, but I connected with them first."},{"speaker":"Adele Bates","startTime":480.46500000000003,"endTime":482.924,"body":"And so then me correcting their behaviour."},{"speaker":"Adele Bates","startTime":482.94500000000005,"endTime":485.12,"body":"I mean, they knew they were supposed to be wearing their masks."},{"speaker":"Adele Bates","startTime":485.12,"endTime":492.34000000000003,"body":"Of course they did because they were on their chin. They'd forgotten. They're human. Lots of us did. So actually it worked."},{"speaker":"Adele Bates","startTime":492.55999999999995,"endTime":499.885,"body":"And then on the other side of this, a quick example of where I totally got this wrong was we'd had one of those sick meetings,"},{"speaker":"Adele Bates","startTime":500.025,"endTime":503.885,"body":"SLT, telling teachers we need to get stricter on the uniform policy."},{"speaker":"Adele Bates","startTime":504.025,"endTime":507.48400000000004,"body":"And the issue was, surprise, surprise, the length of the girl skirts."},{"speaker":"Adele Bates","startTime":507.78499999999997,"endTime":514.525,"body":"It was one of those meetings where we were gonna come down hard on lengths of girl skirts, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera. Right. Okay. Fine."},{"speaker":"Adele Bates","startTime":514.79,"endTime":521.1899999999999,"body":"So I came out all rallied up about this issue, and it was almost like we'd been told it was the most important thing. You know?"},{"speaker":"Adele Bates","startTime":521.1899999999999,"endTime":530.394,"body":"And I bumped into a young person who I think I taught a couple of times in a cover lesson or something, but I didn't have a relationship with them. They weren't someone I knew."},{"speaker":"Adele Bates","startTime":530.535,"endTime":536.375,"body":"And I came straight out of this meeting and I saw her and her skirt was short. She'd rolled it up."},{"speaker":"Adele Bates","startTime":536.375,"endTime":540.294,"body":"And so the first thing I did was I went in and I said, you shouldn't have your verdah."},{"speaker":"Adele Bates","startTime":540.294,"endTime":542.51,"body":"You need to roll your skirt down. Blah dee blah dee blah."},{"speaker":"Adele Bates","startTime":542.83,"endTime":549.33,"body":"She scoffed at me with disdain, and this is the first and only time I've experienced this actually."},{"speaker":"Adele Bates","startTime":549.39,"endTime":551.87,"body":"She said, I know you're bisexual, miss. Why are you saying that?"},{"speaker":"Adele Bates","startTime":551.87,"endTime":552.91,"body":"Why are you perving at my legs?"},{"speaker":"Adele Bates","startTime":552.91,"endTime":554.77,"body":"Why are you looking at my legs, miss? Wow."},{"speaker":"Adele Bates","startTime":554.83,"endTime":562.785,"body":"And I have to say in that moment, I had a lot more empathy for male teachers in this scenario because I'd never experienced that before."},{"speaker":"Adele Bates","startTime":562.785,"endTime":565.745,"body":"It kinda took the wind out of me because I hadn't, and I didn't know what to do."},{"speaker":"Adele Bates","startTime":565.745,"endTime":566.865,"body":"And I thought, well, hang on a minute."},{"speaker":"Adele Bates","startTime":566.865,"endTime":568.625,"body":"Whatever I say is gonna be wrong now."},{"speaker":"Adele Bates","startTime":568.625,"endTime":571.28,"body":"And and I kinda got my nix in a twist about it."},{"speaker":"Adele Bates","startTime":571.519,"endTime":576.019,"body":"And I realized afterwards when I reflected on it, I didn't even say hello."},{"speaker":"Adele Bates","startTime":576.16,"endTime":579.22,"body":"I just went in and I told about the length of this day."},{"speaker":"Adele Bates","startTime":579.359,"endTime":582.98,"body":"What right have I as an adult teacher?"},{"speaker":"Adele Bates","startTime":583.04,"endTime":587.979,"body":"I mean, regardless of my sexual orientation or gender or anything, but what right have I to tell a young girl? Yeah."},{"speaker":"Adele Bates","startTime":587.979,"endTime":592.135,"body":"And it was so out of character for me to do it as well. It's not my usual approach."},{"speaker":"Adele Bates","startTime":592.135,"endTime":596.475,"body":"But I realized that I got fired up in this meeting, and it'd been presented like the most important thing in the world."},{"speaker":"Adele Bates","startTime":596.475,"endTime":605.09,"body":"And I'd come out and going, I need to do my job properly, and this is obviously what we need to do right now. And it completely backfired."},{"speaker":"Adele Bates","startTime":605.15,"endTime":609.7900000000001,"body":"And I think I just mumbled something really inane and really, really ineffective. And I probably turned around."},{"speaker":"Adele Bates","startTime":609.7900000000001,"endTime":613.629,"body":"She probably rolled her skirt up even higher. I don't know. But I hadn't connected with her."},{"speaker":"Adele Bates","startTime":613.629,"endTime":615.395,"body":"And yet I was trying to correct her."},{"speaker":"Adele Bates","startTime":615.554,"endTime":621.075,"body":"It is not my place to start going around in that way correcting people if I haven't built up a trust."},{"speaker":"Adele Bates","startTime":621.075,"endTime":628.135,"body":"And, of course, she retaliated and got me where she thought it would hurt, and she did really well. I hope she goes into politics."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":629.72,"endTime":639.08,"body":"There will be teachers and school leaders listening to this saying, I'm teaching a child right now who doesn't want me to take an interest. They're they're actively pushing me away."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":639.08,"endTime":641.32,"body":"So what are the practical things that we can do?"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":641.32,"endTime":645.735,"body":"What are the tips and tricks that you've got about forming those connections with resistant kids?"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":645.735,"endTime":652.075,"body":"Because as we've discussed, they don't consider the adult safe and they're deliberately pushing us away as a protective behaviour."},{"speaker":"Adele Bates","startTime":652.2950000000001,"endTime":661.9390000000001,"body":"Absolutely. Often I refer to this as the blank because sometimes having that non response is harder than having an outwardly"},{"speaker":"Adele Bates","startTime":661.9390000000001,"endTime":665.379,"body":"aggressive conflicting response because at least then you've got something to play with."},{"speaker":"Adele Bates","startTime":665.379,"endTime":672.075,"body":"But when they shut down, I think which is what you're talking about, it can be really challenging and for some staff it can"},{"speaker":"Adele Bates","startTime":672.075,"endTime":674.495,"body":"be the most triggering thing for them personally."},{"speaker":"Adele Bates","startTime":674.5550000000001,"endTime":676.955,"body":"We all have this, and I talk about this a lot in the book."},{"speaker":"Adele Bates","startTime":676.955,"endTime":681.695,"body":"We all have our behaviours that for one reason or another just get under asking."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":683.595,"endTime":686.9,"body":"And that's all we have time for in this essentials episode."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":686.9,"endTime":692.2,"body":"If you wanna hear the full interview with Adele, head back to episode number 54."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":692.34,"endTime":695.32,"body":"I'll include a direct link to it in the podcast description."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":695.619,"endTime":704.495,"body":"I definitely recommend that you do because she shares lots of practical information and tips that you can use to support the kids that you work with."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":704.495,"endTime":707.775,"body":"And, hey, if you've enjoyed today's episode, why not share it?"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":707.775,"endTime":710.835,"body":"Why not share the School Behaviour Secrets podcast with a colleague?"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":710.895,"endTime":716.65,"body":"It's a lot easier than managing a class of 30 on a Friday afternoon. I know. I've been there."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":716.71,"endTime":724.65,"body":"All you have to do is hit the share button in your podcast app, and you will be your colleague's new best friend."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":724.7900000000001,"endTime":729.5450000000001,"body":"Thanks for listening today, and we'll catch you next time on School Behaviour Secrets."}]}