{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":87.42999999999999,"endTime":93.42999999999999,"body":"Are you using or thinking about introducing restorative practice in your school? Done right."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":93.42999999999999,"endTime":103.185,"body":"It's a fantastic way to teach pupils conflict resolution and encourage positive behaviour by making them care about the impact of their own actions."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":103.185,"endTime":112.16399999999999,"body":"But when it's not introduced effectively, it can lead to people, staff, and parents losing faith in the process."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":112.38499999999999,"endTime":117.64999999999999,"body":"So how do you ensure restorative practice is a success in your school?"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":117.78899999999999,"endTime":119.97,"body":"Stick around to hear our top tips."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":120.589,"endTime":125.249,"body":"Welcome to the School Behaviour Secrets podcast. I'm your host, Simon Currigan."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":125.31,"endTime":131.98499999999999,"body":"My co host is Emma Shackleton, and we're obsessed with helping teachers, school leaders, parents, and, of course, students"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":132.045,"endTime":134.945,"body":"when classroom behaviour gets in the way of success."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":135.08499999999998,"endTime":141.26,"body":"We're gonna share the tried and tested secrets to classroom management, behavioural special needs, whole school strategy, and"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":141.26,"endTime":145.28,"body":"more, all with the aim of helping your students reach their true potential."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":145.57999999999998,"endTime":152.45999999999998,"body":"Plus, we'll be letting you eavesdrop on our conversations with thought leaders from around the world, so you'll get to hear"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":152.45999999999998,"endTime":156.035,"body":"the latest evidence based strategies before anyone else."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":156.035,"endTime":160.355,"body":"This is the School Behaviour Secrets Podcast. Hi there."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":160.355,"endTime":166.21499999999997,"body":"Simon Currigan here, and welcome as we unroll another essentials episode of School Behaviour Secrets."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":166.515,"endTime":175.289,"body":"In these episodes, we share bite sized strategies from earlier shows that you can use straight away with the children that you work with."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":175.289,"endTime":182.17,"body":"But before we get all tangled up in today's content, I'd like to remind you, if you're enjoying these episodes, don't forget"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":182.17,"endTime":187.685,"body":"to subscribe so you never miss a chance to stick with us for more unmissable episodes."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":187.985,"endTime":196.70499999999998,"body":"So today, we're heading back to original episode 55 to revisit the subject of restorative practice and specifically common"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":196.70499999999998,"endTime":202.725,"body":"pitfalls that can make restorative approaches unravel before they've even started."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":202.82,"endTime":210.6,"body":"We're here to guide you based on our own personal experience of working with children and supporting schools so you can avoid"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":210.74,"endTime":219.135,"body":"the traps that we've seen in the real world and help build better relationships with the pupils in your class. Let's go then."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":221.835,"endTime":228.655,"body":"So another reason why restorative practice doesn't get off the ground in some schools is because the adults don't receive"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":228.95499999999998,"endTime":232.01,"body":"adequate training, and they actually feel out of their depth."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":232.01,"endTime":241.23,"body":"If you're moving to restorative practice and away from that old system of rewards and consequences, that can be a pretty big mind shift for some staff."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":241.37,"endTime":246.48499999999999,"body":"So most teachers and TAs are really comfortable with traditional ways of managing behaviour."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":246.545,"endTime":250.085,"body":"We all like to do things the way that we've always done them."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":250.305,"endTime":259.205,"body":"And if it's straightforward, if it's simple, if we believe that it works for most children most of the time, we might be a bit resistant to change it."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":259.64,"endTime":262.53999999999996,"body":"So someone does the right thing, you dole out a reward."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":262.76,"endTime":267.1,"body":"Someone does the wrong thing, you issue a consequence. That's the old style system."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":267.24,"endTime":270.53999999999996,"body":"These are the systems we experienced when we went to school."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":270.68,"endTime":274.53999999999996,"body":"We know exactly how to use them, and we know exactly what they mean."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":274.67499999999995,"endTime":278.055,"body":"So they're simple, they're straightforward, they're easy to implement."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":278.274,"endTime":284.195,"body":"And for some teachers, this reward and consequence, this carrot and stick approach, it's all they mean when they talk about"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":284.195,"endTime":288.055,"body":"behaviour management because of their background, because of their training, because of their understanding."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":288.27,"endTime":290.69,"body":"So put yourself in the teacher's position."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":291.149,"endTime":299.52099999999996,"body":"They haven't had a lot of training about SEMH needs and behaviour, and the underlying conditions that affect children's behaviour,"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":299.869,"endTime":305.53499999999997,"body":"such as trauma and attachment, all of the good stuff that we've covered in other podcast episodes."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":305.91499999999996,"endTime":316.095,"body":"If they don't have that depth of experience and knowledge, and then somebody comes along and says, here's an hour's training on restorative conversations."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":316.71500000000003,"endTime":322.71000000000004,"body":"Next week, that's how you're going to manage all behaviour in school. Well, imagine how that would feel."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":322.71000000000004,"endTime":326.01,"body":"It feels like the rug has been whipped out from under your feet."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":326.31,"endTime":333.845,"body":"I don't think staff are going to feel confident in completely revolutionizing their approach, and they're more likely to feel"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":334.065,"endTime":338.725,"body":"underconfident and disempowered and quite resistant to making those changes."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":338.945,"endTime":344.625,"body":"Yeah. If that member of staff then attempts to use a restorative conversation in the early days and it doesn't go well or"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":344.625,"endTime":347.784,"body":"it doesn't get the result they were expecting or saying things that they weren't expecting and they didn't know how to react"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":347.784,"endTime":351.443,"body":"or change the questions or follow the process, then what is that person's reaction likely to be?"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":351.443,"endTime":355.48,"body":"They're gonna put up their hands and say this doesn't work, management doesn't know what they're talking about, and they're"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":355.48,"endTime":357.26,"body":"gonna lose any commitment to the process."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":362.255,"endTime":365.69500000000005,"body":"That's right. Sometimes they might use it, sometimes they won't."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":365.69500000000005,"endTime":373.375,"body":"They don't really wholeheartedly believe it, so it's not convincing when they use the process and the techniques. Maybe they just give up."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":373.375,"endTime":376.595,"body":"Maybe they just resort straight back to what they've always done."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":376.93999999999994,"endTime":386.79999999999995,"body":"Perhaps the result of every conversation is actually the adult's shortcutting to making the child say sorry, but that isn't the purpose of a restorative conversation."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":387.41999999999996,"endTime":394.45500000000004,"body":"So what happens there is you'll get some staff who are skilled and able to adapt to a new system."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":394.595,"endTime":399.655,"body":"You'll get others who need more input, more support, more time, more training."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":400.03499999999997,"endTime":403.735,"body":"So you quickly get inconsistency between classes."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":404.18999999999994,"endTime":410.769,"body":"So it can feel like as a whole school, this new process of restorative practice just isn't working."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":410.90999999999997,"endTime":418.41499999999996,"body":"Yeah. Ask any senior leader, and they will tell you inconsistency kills behaviour policies. And the thing is right. All behaviour management is a skill."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":418.41499999999996,"endTime":420.91499999999996,"body":"It's not something you learn in an hour and a PowerPoint."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":420.975,"endTime":424.095,"body":"I always compare it to the idea of teaching a child to ride a bike."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":424.095,"endTime":426.81499999999994,"body":"So what you're doing is you're teaching them a skill."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":426.81499999999994,"endTime":433.94899999999996,"body":"So what you wouldn't do if you were teaching a child to ride a bike is grab a PowerPoint and tell them all about angular velocity"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":434.25,"endTime":437.22900000000004,"body":"and what balance looks like in terms of physics and levers."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":437.289,"endTime":440.72900000000004,"body":"And at the end of the hour, turn the power point off and say, bang. There you go."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":440.72900000000004,"endTime":442.009,"body":"You know how to ride a bike."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":442.009,"endTime":446.08500000000004,"body":"What you've done is given them lots of information about riding a bike."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":446.08500000000004,"endTime":453.924,"body":"But actually, riding a bike is a skill you learn over time with encouragement and guidance, and it's the same with behaviour management. It's a skill."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":453.924,"endTime":460.405,"body":"You can read about it, but until you put it into practice with advice and guidance and support, it's not something that you"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":460.405,"endTime":464.67999999999995,"body":"can just pick up very, very quickly. It requires coaching and mentoring."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":464.9,"endTime":467.55999999999995,"body":"And I think behaviour management is ever evolving."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":468.17999999999995,"endTime":474.03999999999996,"body":"I mean, I'm nearly 25 years in education now, and I'm learning new things all the time about how to manage behaviour."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":474.34000000000003,"endTime":483.765,"body":"So the solution is sustained support over time, and especially in those early months when the school is transitioning to a new system."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":484.225,"endTime":489.605,"body":"We need to give plenty of opportunities to talk and compare notes with other teachers."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":489.92999999999995,"endTime":492.49,"body":"We need mentoring and support from leaders."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":492.49,"endTime":497.15,"body":"It's about creating a culture shift and that isn't going to happen overnight."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":497.53,"endTime":503.39,"body":"Another thing to bear in mind is as leaders we can suffer from the curse of knowledge, which is assuming people know exactly"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":503.95399999999995,"endTime":507.155,"body":"what we know to the depth of our experience and the depth of our knowledge."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":507.155,"endTime":514.134,"body":"We don't make allowances or perhaps we don't make enough allowance for the difference in the levels of knowledge."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":514.275,"endTime":520.81,"body":"We take ideas which we understand on a scale of complexity, let's say, 9 out of 10, and then we kinda dumb it down."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":520.81,"endTime":525.15,"body":"We explain it in a simpler way, and we sort of bring it down to a 5 out of 10."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":525.29,"endTime":532.805,"body":"But actually, sometimes we have to go right down to a 1 or a 2 to communicate effectively because the person that we're speaking"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":532.805,"endTime":539.365,"body":"to or the staff that we're speaking to or segments of the staff we're speaking to may have very little knowledge about this."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":539.365,"endTime":549.269,"body":"And taking it right down to that level is, you know, essential for ensuring they understand the process and that we carry them with us. This isn't being patronizing. It's differentiation."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":549.65,"endTime":561.1899999999999,"body":"And our final reason why sometimes schools find it hard to launch restorative justice in their school is what about the adaptations for pupils with special educational needs?"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":561.625,"endTime":568.125,"body":"So schools always need to consider how they're going to adapt the process for kids with additional needs."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":568.505,"endTime":571.0649999999999,"body":"And here are a few pointers to bear in mind."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":571.0649999999999,"endTime":576.14,"body":"Does the child experience toxic shame due to their early childhood experiences or trauma?"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":576.14,"endTime":585.12,"body":"Now toxic shame is a condition where you feel that on the inside you are genuinely a bad person who isn't worthy of love or praise."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":585.42,"endTime":595.555,"body":"If you have this condition, then a restorative conversation is going to ask you to take responsibility for negative actions you've taken against another person."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":595.775,"endTime":602.835,"body":"Now these negative actions are going to be yet more evidence from your point of view that you are bad through and through."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":603.14,"endTime":609.5400000000001,"body":"So you're not likely to want to engage in that because even admitting that you've done something that's impacted badly on"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":609.5400000000001,"endTime":614.26,"body":"another person is making you sort of confront this underlying belief that I am genuinely bad."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":614.26,"endTime":618.4390000000001,"body":"So we need to think about what do we do for children that experience toxic shame issues."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":618.705,"endTime":624.065,"body":"And the next point to consider is can the child take responsibility for their choices?"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":624.065,"endTime":626.965,"body":"Can they actually do that during the incident?"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":627.505,"endTime":631.205,"body":"If not, maybe we need additional time for discussion."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":631.82,"endTime":639.98,"body":"So we might need to use visual resources, such as comic strip conversations, for example, or choice points to map out what"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":639.98,"endTime":643.0400000000001,"body":"happened and where children made specific choices."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":643.499,"endTime":646.559,"body":"We've got to go from where children are at."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":646.625,"endTime":655.0450000000001,"body":"And if they're simply unable to take responsibility, we've got to start from there and help to teach them how to fully understand"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":655.1850000000001,"endTime":662.325,"body":"what happened in a situation, not just from their own viewpoint, but from other children's viewpoints as well."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":662.52,"endTime":668.86,"body":"And lots of children, particularly very young children, that is developmentally appropriate, that they are entirely egocentric."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":669.24,"endTime":671.66,"body":"They can only see things from their own perspective."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":671.96,"endTime":678.945,"body":"So as children go through the school, we've got to work with them not at their chronological age, but at their developmental age."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":679.245,"endTime":687.025,"body":"And some children, even older children, still find it incredibly difficult to view a situation from another person's perspective."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":687.405,"endTime":689.4200000000001,"body":"So what can we do to help them with that?"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":689.4200000000001,"endTime":693.52,"body":"What resources, what visuals have we got to facilitate that discussion?"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":695.98,"endTime":702.515,"body":"And we have to pause the interview just there as we don't have time, unfortunately, for the full episode today."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":702.515,"endTime":709.5550000000001,"body":"If you wanna know more about how to keep restorative practices from coming unstuck in your school, then feel free to check"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":709.5550000000001,"endTime":712.0550000000001,"body":"out the full conversation in episode 55."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":712.195,"endTime":716.515,"body":"It's full of practical tips, and it's well worth the listen."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":716.515,"endTime":720.859,"body":"I'll stick a link at the bottom of the episode description so you can have easy access."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":720.859,"endTime":722.799,"body":"All you have to do is click right through."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":723.02,"endTime":727.179,"body":"If you've enjoyed today's episode, do please take a moment to rate and review us."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":727.179,"endTime":734.455,"body":"It takes only 30 seconds, and it helps the algorithm to recommend School Behaviour Secrets to more teachers, school leaders,"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":734.455,"endTime":738.695,"body":"and parents who could benefit from the advice we share on this show."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":738.695,"endTime":743.58,"body":"Thanks for tuning in today, and I look forward to seeing you next time on School Behaviour Secrets."}]}