{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":87.42999999999999,"endTime":92.08999999999999,"body":"Hi there. And on this week's episode of School Behaviour Secrets, I have some new information"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":92.149,"endTime":95.03,"body":"that you need to support the kids in your school."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":95.03,"endTime":103.155,"body":"I'm gonna be talking to Jane Green, MBE, about the link between pain and neurodiversity and"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":103.155,"endTime":112.035,"body":"how that link may fuel issues like emotional dysregulation or attendance issues or a pupil's"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":112.035,"endTime":117.28999999999999,"body":"ability to succeed and thrive academically in school or make social connections with their friends."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":117.28999999999999,"endTime":123.44999999999999,"body":"It's really interesting work, and it's something that you need to know if you are working with"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":123.44999999999999,"endTime":127.05,"body":"neurodivergent pupils in your school, which means all of you."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":127.05,"endTime":129.95,"body":"So stay tuned for this week's episode of School Behaviour Secrets."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":130.545,"endTime":133.365,"body":"Welcome to the School Behaviour Secrets podcast."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":133.665,"endTime":135.20499999999998,"body":"I'm your host, Simon Currigan."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":135.264,"endTime":140.784,"body":"My co host is Emma Shackleton, and we're obsessed with helping teachers, school leaders, parents,"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":140.784,"endTime":144.884,"body":"and, of course, students when classroom behaviour gets in the way of success."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":145.02499999999998,"endTime":149.8,"body":"We're gonna share the tried and tested secrets to classroom management, behavioural special needs,"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":149.8,"endTime":155.25900000000001,"body":"whole school strategy, and more, all with the aim of helping your students reach their true potential."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":155.56,"endTime":160.44,"body":"Plus, we'll be letting you eavesdrop on our conversations with thought leaders so you'll get"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":160.44,"endTime":164.485,"body":"to hear the latest evidence based strategies before anyone else."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":164.485,"endTime":169.204,"body":"This is the School Behaviour Secrets podcast. Hi."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":169.254,"endTime":174.08499999999998,"body":"Simon Currigan here from School Behaviour Secrets and Beacon School Support, and welcome to this"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":174.08499999999998,"endTime":176.265,"body":"week's episode of the podcast."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":176.68,"endTime":179.57999999999998,"body":"We're gonna share with you today some really new important knowledge."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":179.88,"endTime":187.18,"body":"We've got a guest, Jane Green, MBE, on the show, and she's gonna talk to us about how neurodivergent"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":187.72,"endTime":195.27499999999998,"body":"pupils may experience pain or indeed have more physical pain in their lives and how adults'"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":195.27499999999998,"endTime":200.015,"body":"reactions to that, potentially their disbelief can affect their outcomes."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":200.71499999999997,"endTime":203.675,"body":"It can affect how they do socially and emotionally in school."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":203.675,"endTime":205.055,"body":"It might affect their attendance."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":205.56,"endTime":212.6,"body":"And there are serious implications here for how we respond to what our pupils are telling us in school as adults."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":212.6,"endTime":217.88,"body":"So some really important information that you need to know if you're working with kids in school,"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":217.88,"endTime":219.48,"body":"so please stay with us."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":219.48,"endTime":224.255,"body":"If you're finding the School Behaviour Secrets podcast useful, if you're finding this valuable"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":224.255,"endTime":227.79399999999998,"body":"information here, then please don't keep it to yourself."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":227.85399999999998,"endTime":234.274,"body":"Please, first of all, like and subscribe because that prompts the algorithm to share, the podcast"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":234.60999999999999,"endTime":237.32999999999998,"body":"with more teachers, school leaders, and parents. Indeed."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":237.32999999999998,"endTime":240.789,"body":"We've got an audience of parents who need this information."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":240.929,"endTime":242.209,"body":"It takes just 10 seconds."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":242.209,"endTime":246.44899999999998,"body":"It's the quickest and easiest way of supporting the work that we're doing."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":246.44899999999998,"endTime":251.48499999999999,"body":"And, indeed, if you can forward it to to 1 or 2 colleagues who might find it useful, that helps"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":251.54399999999998,"endTime":254.42499999999998,"body":"us grow and reach more people."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":254.42499999999998,"endTime":256.765,"body":"So I'd really appreciate it if you could do that."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":256.985,"endTime":263.305,"body":"Also, we've got a resource that really supports and accompanies this episode really well."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":263.305,"endTime":265.405,"body":"It's called the SEMH behaviour handbook."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":265.88,"endTime":270.6,"body":"And what it helps you do is it helps you link behaviours that you might be seeing in the classroom"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":270.6,"endTime":276.05899999999997,"body":"with possible underlying causes, things like autism or ADHD or trauma."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":276.36,"endTime":280.615,"body":"Now the point of this isn't for classroom teachers to try and make a diagnosis."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":281.315,"endTime":283.475,"body":"That's for medical practitioners to do."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":283.475,"endTime":284.755,"body":"We're not qualified to do that."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":284.755,"endTime":290.995,"body":"But often, we're the professionals that start to join the dots between what we're seeing in"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":290.995,"endTime":293.015,"body":"school and possible underlying needs."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":293.11,"endTime":297.77,"body":"So we can get the right professionals involved earlier on, and we can get early intervention"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":297.83,"endTime":303.13,"body":"strategies in place, which we know always results in positive outcomes for pupils."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":303.429,"endTime":304.709,"body":"You can get it from our website."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":304.709,"endTime":307.209,"body":"I'll put a direct link to the handbook."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":307.575,"endTime":311.67499999999995,"body":"If you're watching this on YouTube, I'll put a direct link in the comments. It's a free download."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":311.735,"endTime":316.29499999999996,"body":"Or if you're listening to the audio version of the podcast, simply tap, open up the episode"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":316.29499999999996,"endTime":321.40999999999997,"body":"description, and there'll be a direct link there so you can click straight through. That's it."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":321.40999999999997,"endTime":327.99,"body":"Now it's time for my conversation with Jane Green, MBE, about neurodivergent pupils and pain."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":328.28999999999996,"endTime":333.11,"body":"I'm very excited to welcome Jane Green to the show today."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":333.16999999999996,"endTime":340.774,"body":"Jane was awarded an MBE for services to neurodivergent people and is an educationalist and ex assistant head teacher."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":340.774,"endTime":347.91499999999996,"body":"She also worked as a local authority advisor lead and national lead for autism, ADHD, and dyspraxia."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":348.21500000000003,"endTime":355.30999999999995,"body":"She has worked in all phases of education and leads the neurodivergent hypermobility charity"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":355.70500000000004,"endTime":361.15,"body":"SEDS Connective and regularly writes and presents to UK and global conferences."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":361.45000000000005,"endTime":369.595,"body":"She is the co author on the first paper on neurodivergent children and young people with health challenges."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":369.73400000000004,"endTime":372.07399999999996,"body":"Jane, welcome to the show."},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":372.61400000000003,"endTime":374.634,"body":"Thank you so much for having me on."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":374.85400000000004,"endTime":380.03999999999996,"body":"It's a pleasure. And this is a topic actually that I'm completely new to as well."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":380.26,"endTime":385.139,"body":"So I I'm looking forward to learning about your research and what you're discovering about how"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":385.139,"endTime":387.299,"body":"we can support neurodivergent kids in school."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":387.299,"endTime":394.894,"body":"So I wanna start by asking you, what are the unique challenges that neurodivergent pupils with"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":394.894,"endTime":398.514,"body":"physical health conditions face in mainstream schools?"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":398.73400000000004,"endTime":403.55499999999995,"body":"And why is it for us as educators to understand those needs?"},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":404.22900000000004,"endTime":408.32899999999995,"body":"They are unique in the way that we haven't considered them before."},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":408.94899999999996,"endTime":416.57000000000005,"body":"But in a way, they're not unique because they co occur with neurodivergent children and young people and adults, actually."},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":417.655,"endTime":423.83500000000004,"body":"But I think what is unique is it's just coming to the forefront in education health and care"},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":423.975,"endTime":430.49,"body":"throughout everything and the unique thing is and it sounds utterly bizarre to people who've"},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":430.49,"endTime":436.80999999999995,"body":"been working in this area for a long time that neurodivergent children, young people i.e."},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":436.80999999999995,"endTime":444.875,"body":"So I'm gonna identify autistic, ADHD, dyspraxic, probably dyslexic, those with Tourettes have"},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":444.875,"endTime":447.855,"body":"co occurring physical health differences."},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":448.475,"endTime":451.355,"body":"In our body, we have connective tissue."},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":451.355,"endTime":455.53499999999997,"body":"It's top to bottom, you know, entry to exit, I could say."},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":455.995,"endTime":462.34000000000003,"body":"And what they found, the scientists, is that our collagen, the protein in the connective tissue"},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":462.34000000000003,"endTime":471.79999999999995,"body":"is weak, is really lax, is really stretchy and elastic much more than the neurotypical or neuromajority population."},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":472.17999999999995,"endTime":479.11400000000003,"body":"That's what it's found and so this connective tissue surrounds our organs, our tendons, ligaments"},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":479.174,"endTime":487.37,"body":"and joints, even our vascular systems of the veins, the bowel, bladder, stomach, heart, even"},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":487.37,"endTime":492.269,"body":"our lungs, the ears, even eyes, and probably brain."},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":492.65,"endTime":495.30999999999995,"body":"I was one of those children missing in education."},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":496.65,"endTime":504.655,"body":"I was one of those children who didn't do well, was considered dim and, a hypochondriac and I've"},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":504.655,"endTime":511.53499999999997,"body":"been like that all my life, until I late studied and even now I still got a bit of the imposter,"},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":511.53499999999997,"endTime":518.1899999999999,"body":"obviously I've got degrees and things but the hypochondria, the invalidation of not believing"},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":518.25,"endTime":525.289,"body":"that I'm actually ill or injured is still with me at times and I think that's that's a trauma"},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":525.289,"endTime":527.71,"body":"in a way from from my schoolhood."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":528.105,"endTime":529.385,"body":"Can I just ask a question about that?"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":529.385,"endTime":530.825,"body":"Because you've got personal experience of that."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":530.825,"endTime":532.605,"body":"This is obviously important to you."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":533.945,"endTime":540.825,"body":"What was the impact on you of that, I guess, in disbelief from adults when you were younger?"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":540.825,"endTime":546.85,"body":"You've you've sort of touched on it made you feel like a hypochondriac, but what was that like for you?"},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":548.109,"endTime":549.57,"body":"I didn't know any different."},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":549.63,"endTime":555.73,"body":"I also didn't know that pain wasn't normal because I've always been in pain and I think that's quite key."},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":556.345,"endTime":559.965,"body":"But what it did do was -  I wasn't a great communicator."},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":560.265,"endTime":566.665,"body":"In fact, I was selective mute probably most of my particularly secondary age."},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":566.665,"endTime":567.907,"body":"I was also bottom setted"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":568.265,"endTime":568.441,"body":"and there was no structure in the classroom so it was a"},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":568.441,"endTime":571.15,"body":"matter of survival"},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":571.456,"endTime":575.42,"body":"and not being squashed by your peers, but I wouldn't if I did know an answer or something I wouldn't"},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":575.42,"endTime":579.28,"body":"dare come out with it because I knew my peers would squash me."},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":582.5649999999999,"endTime":585.225,"body":"But also I was often missing in school."},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":585.285,"endTime":592.085,"body":"A - it was easy to be a truant person what we call non attendance avoidance now because in those"},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":592.085,"endTime":596.805,"body":"days you just used to sign in on register and then at the end of the day so you could leave"},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":596.805,"endTime":603.13,"body":"in between. But I had a lot of infections not just flu but scarlet fever and things like that."},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":603.13,"endTime":605.39,"body":"A lot of viral infections as well."},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":605.85,"endTime":607.5500000000001,"body":"And a lot of pain."},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":607.85,"endTime":612.845,"body":"I would eat lunch occasionally even though it was pretty grim I'm going to say."},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":612.845,"endTime":617.1850000000001,"body":"But I would have looked like I was 9 months pregnant because of the bloating in my stomach."},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":618.0450000000001,"endTime":619.8050000000001,"body":"And I didn't know what it was."},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":619.8050000000001,"endTime":622.205,"body":"I just felt very uncomfortable with it."},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":622.205,"endTime":625.565,"body":"So you sort of avoid food because you don't know what's happening."},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":625.565,"endTime":628.21,"body":"You just know how how painful you are."},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":628.35,"endTime":633.73,"body":"And I used to get comments from others or I was just told I was making it up basically."},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":634.03,"endTime":638.85,"body":"I used to have all sorts of migraines, joint aches, but I thought that was normal."},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":638.99,"endTime":644.504,"body":"What we call half dislocations, although I've had full ones as well of the joints."},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":644.8050000000001,"endTime":650.745,"body":"And obviously, they're quite painful, but the doctor just used to roll his eyes up at me."},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":650.885,"endTime":659.78,"body":"So I think to your question, what it does, it invalidates my own belief or it did in my in my"},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":659.78,"endTime":664.0400000000001,"body":"health that it wasn't true that I was making it up, that I was being oversensitive."},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":665.059,"endTime":670.895,"body":"Obviously, neurodivergence wasn't known back then at all. And so I I just thought I was a bit"},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":670.895,"endTime":678.4150000000001,"body":"of a failure really because I couldn't do what the others were doing in PE, in all sorts of things."},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":678.4150000000001,"endTime":682.035,"body":"Yet some things I really excelled at and I didn't know why either."},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":682.87,"endTime":684.97,"body":"Like being I'm particularly bendy."},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":685.03,"endTime":687.45,"body":"Not everyone is who's got hypermobility."},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":687.91,"endTime":689.69,"body":"I just want to put that out there."},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":690.15,"endTime":692.89,"body":"And you get extreme fatigue as well."},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":693.35,"endTime":699.945,"body":"And so all these symptoms are very familiar to us now with what is happening in school."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":700.005,"endTime":701.205,"body":"Could you explain a little bit more?"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":701.205,"endTime":708.505,"body":"You started talking about collagen and how it can be different in neurodivergent pupils or people in general."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":708.8050000000001,"endTime":715.09,"body":"Can can you explain more about why that's important, the link between that and how those pupils might experience pain?"},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":715.7900000000001,"endTime":722.129,"body":"So we know with neurodivergent people, a lot of the approaches and interventions is about burnout"},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":722.35,"endTime":725.71,"body":"and fatigue and anxiety, for example."},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":725.71,"endTime":730.085,"body":"And so you've got the social, emotional, mental supports in."},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":730.085,"endTime":736.505,"body":"But what we know about the connective tissue being weak is that for a lot of people in primary"},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":736.8050000000001,"endTime":744.105,"body":"a lot of allergies, those children with eczema, hay fever, rhinitis, we have extreme reactions with histamine."},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":744.98,"endTime":750.36,"body":"It's all to do with the connective tissues, temperature regulation, but also with younger children"},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":750.4200000000001,"endTime":754.9200000000001,"body":"particularly it's constipation, impaction and diarrhea."},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":755.3000000000001,"endTime":762.9150000000001,"body":"And so a lot of late toileting might be actually due to hypermobility and, it causes a lot of anxiety."},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":762.975,"endTime":768.4150000000001,"body":"We get back loads of correspondence from parents and carers even professionals who don't know"},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":768.4150000000001,"endTime":772.595,"body":"what to do but they're accused of late toileting or other things."},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":772.735,"endTime":776.48,"body":"But the children cannot - there are various things going into it."},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":776.62,"endTime":778.96,"body":"They cannot control it because of the hypermobility."},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":780.86,"endTime":786.5600000000001,"body":"So the nerves in the bowel and blood and stomach either are too loose or they're too strong."},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":787.0550000000001,"endTime":792.975,"body":"So we're quite extreme and that's why we get the diarrhea constipation and this causes anxiety"},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":792.975,"endTime":796.495,"body":"for the child because they don't know what's happening either."},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":796.495,"endTime":801.4200000000001,"body":"Then you've got the interoception sense, cognitive emotion going on."},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":801.4200000000001,"endTime":806.3000000000001,"body":"One of the inner senses that you don't know what your bladder and bowel or stomach is doing."},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":806.3000000000001,"endTime":811.9200000000001,"body":"So neurodivergent people often don't know if they're in pain until it's suddenly overwhelming"},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":812.485,"endTime":817.285,"body":"and I think a lot of teachers or teaching assistants and staff suddenly see that coming out"},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":817.285,"endTime":820.504,"body":"of the blue which perplexes them and that is why."},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":820.965,"endTime":827.13,"body":"And then also understanding it in our brains that that is pain or that is hunger It's quite"},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":827.13,"endTime":828.75,"body":"difficult for us to know."},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":828.8100000000001,"endTime":831.47,"body":"We actually have to be almost taught it."},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":832.41,"endTime":837.9300000000001,"body":"The other thing with anxiety is really, really interesting and this is a key part."},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":837.9300000000001,"endTime":846.4350000000001,"body":"So particularly for girls in secondary, coming up to puberty is really key and why we get so many issues then."},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":846.4350000000001,"endTime":848.455,"body":"And obviously the attendance actually."},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":849.155,"endTime":855.59,"body":"So it's a gravity thing because the if you like, the veins are quite elastic and loose and not"},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":855.59,"endTime":863.9300000000001,"body":"very strong, when you get up from lying to sitting, the blood starts pooling down from the head going it goes downwards."},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":864.47,"endTime":870.485,"body":"And then as you you stand up, it goes down to the feet, but it means the oxygenated blood does"},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":870.485,"endTime":871.625,"body":"not get to the brain."},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":872.485,"endTime":878.105,"body":"So for neurodivergent people and working with them they say oh I've got brain fog, oh I'm confused,"},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":878.245,"endTime":880.1850000000001,"body":"oh it's my executive functioning."},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":880.76,"endTime":888.379,"body":"Actually this is connective tissue, this is hypermobility, it's often it's got a technical name,"},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":888.679,"endTime":894.885,"body":"but what the heart does because the heart is really clever it starts pounding really, it starts"},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":894.885,"endTime":900.885,"body":"working really hard to get the blood back up there and so for the person it feels like your"},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":900.885,"endTime":906.245,"body":"heart's pounding, you start getting hot and sweaty, you don't know why you've been perfectly"},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":906.245,"endTime":913.22,"body":"fine before but it makes you feel anxious and to anyone looking outside it's anxiety, but actually"},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":913.22,"endTime":919.86,"body":"it's a physical cause, so any social and emotional or mental support for that won't have the"},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":919.86,"endTime":923.075,"body":"best outcomes And that works in lessons as well."},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":923.075,"endTime":925.575,"body":"You might have to raise your legs and things like that."},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":925.7950000000001,"endTime":928.2950000000001,"body":"So that's just one example of anxiety."},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":928.9150000000001,"endTime":930.595,"body":"Why it matters so much."},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":930.595,"endTime":935.1750000000001,"body":"And most people think of neurodivergence, they've got brain fatigue, they've got burnout."},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":935.6800000000001,"endTime":941.84,"body":"Actually, we know that with connective tissue being loose, the muscles are the ones doing all"},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":941.84,"endTime":943.38,"body":"the work holding us together."},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":943.44,"endTime":949.6,"body":"And you have to sit up in school, and it takes much more energy for a neurodivergent child to"},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":949.6,"endTime":955.655,"body":"do that than the neuro majority or neurotypical whatever you like to say much more energy."},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":955.955,"endTime":962.855,"body":"So using more energy just sitting up let alone working and everything makes you more tired because you're inflamed."},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":962.995,"endTime":968.72,"body":"We're inflamed from infections, we get more infections, we get we're dealing usually with a"},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":968.72,"endTime":972.34,"body":"lot of pain and injury but you can't see it. It's invisible."},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":973.2,"endTime":977.359,"body":"And migraines are particularly key, jaw pain issues, eye issues."},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":977.359,"endTime":982.245,"body":"There's obviously a lot of astigmatism in neurodivergent people due to hypermobility."},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":983.905,"endTime":990.725,"body":"And stomach issues, so as I said entry to exit, so it can be swallowing, it can be burning reflux,"},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":991.105,"endTime":994.97,"body":"burning pain, it can be stomach cramps all the time."},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":995.83,"endTime":1001.11,"body":"So people avoid food and they think it's an eating disorder which it might be but it also you"},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":1001.11,"endTime":1003.03,"body":"need to look at the physical as well."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1003.03,"endTime":1008.155,"body":"The implications of this are actually really complicated because on the one hand you've got"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1008.155,"endTime":1014.475,"body":"the child in the classroom who might be misinterpreting or not understanding their own pain"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1014.475,"endTime":1018.575,"body":"or why they're feeling like you described the feelings of anxiety, but it's not actually anxiety."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1019.45,"endTime":1024.73,"body":"And then you've got the adults who are also misinterpreting potentially what's going on."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1024.73,"endTime":1028.989,"body":"So there's there's a lot of room for error there about how the pain could be misinterpreted."},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":1030.4099999999999,"endTime":1036.504,"body":"Absolutely. And that's why the trauma what we find is children, young people are disbelieved and they grow up."},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":1036.504,"endTime":1044.684,"body":"We've got all ages in our charity with huge trauma and PTSD, fullness, not being believed, told"},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":1045.07,"endTime":1049.01,"body":"by many doctors and others that it's all in their head."},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":1049.47,"endTime":1053.57,"body":"I mean, I've been told that many many times even with visible injuries."},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":1054.11,"endTime":1057.57,"body":"But also for staff, it's quite, scary."},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":1058.189,"endTime":1060.965,"body":"I've done a lot of work."},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":1060.965,"endTime":1066.985,"body":"I've done toolkits and publications and I I talk to a lot of teachers and I remember PE teachers,"},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":1067.365,"endTime":1070.325,"body":"always key, talking to me and saying it was really scary."},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":1070.325,"endTime":1076.3899999999999,"body":"They've got this wonderful student who excels at one sport or they've got another one and they"},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":1076.3899999999999,"endTime":1077.53,"body":"think they might be hypermobile."},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":1077.749,"endTime":1080.09,"body":"They were learning about it from me."},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":1080.23,"endTime":1085.989,"body":"They said, but suddenly this person's ankle seemed to be out of place and I didn't see anything"},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":1085.989,"endTime":1090.6499999999999,"body":"happen before and I've got to go back and tell the parents what happened, but I don't know what happened."},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":1091.175,"endTime":1092.555,"body":"It's a two way thing."},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":1093.415,"endTime":1096.795,"body":"The parents don't often know either because they haven't been diagnosed."},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":1097.0149999999999,"endTime":1104.075,"body":"It you can't get a diagnosis for the formal, terminology. It's so complex."},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":1104.1599999999999,"endTime":1106.239,"body":"I don't even want to go into it too much."},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":1106.239,"endTime":1107.54,"body":"That's why I use hypermobility."},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":1108.3999999999999,"endTime":1111.6999999999998,"body":"In the paper, we've used JHS and EDS."},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":1112.08,"endTime":1117.2949999999998,"body":"There's also HSD but it changed again last year to pediatric types."},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":1117.455,"endTime":1123.774,"body":"So we use hypermobility as a simple word to cover the formal diagnosis but for children it's"},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":1123.774,"endTime":1127.3149999999998,"body":"very unlikely they'll get a diagnosis unless very rare."},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":1127.5339999999999,"endTime":1133.154,"body":"If you've got a neuro divergent child particularly at puberty the hormones are very very key."},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":1133.48,"endTime":1143.58,"body":"So the male hormones tend to, protect more, not always, but they tend to protect because the muscular gets stronger. So that's key."},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":1143.6399999999999,"endTime":1145.8799999999999,"body":"But for girls and women, it gets worse."},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":1145.8799999999999,"endTime":1149.605,"body":"And there is a study about the endocrine and hormone issues."},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":1149.605,"endTime":1156.745,"body":"So the monthly pain can be much worse and I know it's in the news at the moment as well."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1156.965,"endTime":1164.56,"body":"So how does this disbelief in the child's pain from medical professionals, from teachers, from"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1164.56,"endTime":1170.639,"body":"parents who don't understand what's going on, how does that impact on their access to the curriculum"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1170.639,"endTime":1173.6999999999998,"body":"as you know, aside from getting a diagnosis or the label?"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1173.84,"endTime":1175.5149999999999,"body":"Just thinking about school wise?"},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":1175.895,"endTime":1181.5749999999998,"body":"I've always been very passionate about attendance because I could see the issues why so many"},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":1181.5749999999998,"endTime":1188.875,"body":"neurodivergent people were missing in education and of course my own, story and my children."},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":1189.33,"endTime":1196.61,"body":"So if you do not have a formal diagnosis of something unlike, say, diabetes, I'm just picking"},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":1196.61,"endTime":1203.51,"body":"that out of the air, there is no code, there's no reason they're absent from school, they're tired."},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":1204.0749999999998,"endTime":1210.395,"body":"Then it might be they've got a neurodivergent diagnosis, so it's misattributed just to the social"},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":1210.395,"endTime":1215.0549999999998,"body":"and emotional mental neurodevelopmental side, but actually it's physical."},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":1215.115,"endTime":1217.4499999999998,"body":"The parents, carers often don't know it."},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":1218.09,"endTime":1223.2099999999998,"body":"So the SENCO or whatever might go to the doctor, say is there a reason this student's not at"},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":1223.2099999999998,"endTime":1226.75,"body":"school, the doctor won't know it, they're not trained in hypermobility."},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":1227.6899999999998,"endTime":1234.0649999999998,"body":"This is the biggest issue and so there's no coding or they might say well they're autistic or"},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":1234.0649999999998,"endTime":1240.5649999999998,"body":"ADHD so it's fatigue and burnout or EBSA, emotional based school avoidance, EBSA."},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":1241.024,"endTime":1247.34,"body":"So that's what I've been working on for many years and it's a key point I present on this."},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":1247.7199999999998,"endTime":1253.8,"body":"Emotional based school avoidance, if you look at the articles mention physical symptoms and they"},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":1253.8,"endTime":1261.485,"body":"are fatigue, stomachache, headaches, and anxiety, and I think I've just explained that these"},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":1261.485,"endTime":1264.225,"body":"are physical co occurrences with hypermobility."},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":1264.8449999999998,"endTime":1270.144,"body":"There's a real reason for this, but if you disbelieve it and say it's socially, emotional, mental"},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":1270.605,"endTime":1275.6599999999999,"body":"the child feels like a failure when they've got all this support and interventions and approaches"},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":1275.7199999999998,"endTime":1279.1,"body":"working but they're still feeling really anxious or fatigued."},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":1279.7199999999998,"endTime":1286.4399999999998,"body":"I think the mental interplay is really interesting with the physical because then you do get"},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":1286.4399999999998,"endTime":1292.715,"body":"anxiety and depression because you're not being supported and that's where it's not just physical."},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":1292.935,"endTime":1299.175,"body":"I'm very much for the whole body brain and I know I've been there and the mental really impacts"},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":1299.175,"endTime":1301.2099999999998,"body":"that they don't believe me. I'm making it up."},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":1301.2099999999998,"endTime":1303.23,"body":"I must be invalidating myself."},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":1303.77,"endTime":1305.77,"body":"I can't do what my friends are doing."},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":1305.77,"endTime":1307.9299999999998,"body":"Look, teenagers, they want to do."},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":1307.9299999999998,"endTime":1308.9699999999998,"body":"They want to go out."},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":1308.9699999999998,"endTime":1312.029,"body":"They want to do this. They can't. They're absolutely fatigued."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1312.81,"endTime":1315.205,"body":"There's a lot of complexity there."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1315.205,"endTime":1319.685,"body":"I can imagine once a child starts to feel anxious on top of it, then you have a really hard"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1319.685,"endTime":1323.685,"body":"time unpicking what is what at different times."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1323.685,"endTime":1329.33,"body":"And I I wanna circle back to something you said actually about kids then getting potential,"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1329.33,"endTime":1336.2099999999998,"body":"like, interventions around anxiety or, you know, some other SEMH support that might actually"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1336.2099999999998,"endTime":1342.945,"body":"be a waste of time because it's focused on anxiety, but actually, at that point, it might be"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1342.945,"endTime":1348.485,"body":"entirely related to the way the child's experiencing pain in school."},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":1349.425,"endTime":1355.779,"body":"Yes. I wouldn't like to say it's a complete waste of time because I believe in the mental health and support."},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":1356.1589999999999,"endTime":1361.1999999999998,"body":"But if you think of the amount of funds the government is pouring into mental health without"},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":1361.1999999999998,"endTime":1365.1999999999998,"body":"the physical, you know, where brain and body joined up."},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":1365.1999999999998,"endTime":1369.0949999999998,"body":"I keep saying that it doesn't make sense when we've got the evidence."},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":1369.235,"endTime":1372.5339999999999,"body":"And also, you know, on behaviour, we wrote this in the paper."},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":1373.0749999999998,"endTime":1378.675,"body":"If you've got someone in pain and they're not believing they can't articulate it or express"},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":1378.675,"endTime":1384.1589999999999,"body":"it or understand it, it's going to express in a different way in the classroom, isn't it?"},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":1384.1589999999999,"endTime":1389.9399999999998,"body":"If you think neurodivergent children, think hypermobility and vice versa until you know different."},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":1390.56,"endTime":1393.485,"body":"But it's not to say everyone will be symptomatic."},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":1393.625,"endTime":1399.7849999999999,"body":"And I don't want to paint it as a doom and gloom thing, but we do need awareness training and"},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":1399.7849999999999,"endTime":1405.965,"body":"support to practice to support these children and young people because otherwise they grow up"},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":1406.37,"endTime":1410.87,"body":"with this trauma and disbelief as as well as poor poorer health. We know that."},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":1410.9299999999998,"endTime":1417.4299999999998,"body":"And what the evidence shows is that if you're with Ehlers Danlos, which is a formal terminology"},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":1417.8899999999999,"endTime":1426.154,"body":"with hypermobility, given, so given hypermobility, you are over 7.5 times more likely to be autistic"},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":1426.375,"endTime":1432.5549999999998,"body":"and 5.6 to be ADHD and about 20 to 30, but there hasn't been too much evidence for dyspraxia."},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":1433.175,"endTime":1439.32,"body":"And then another one shows that you are over double if you're neurodivergent, you are over double"},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":1439.3799999999999,"endTime":1442.4399999999998,"body":"likely to have hypermobility and more pain."},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":1442.5,"endTime":1444.28,"body":"So that came here out in 22."},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":1444.4199999999998,"endTime":1446.02,"body":"We've got it on our thing."},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":1446.02,"endTime":1451.135,"body":"And then another one interestingly this year was about the emotional dysregulation."},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":1452.5549999999998,"endTime":1454.175,"body":"It's actually linked to hypermobility."},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":1455.195,"endTime":1462.1589999999999,"body":"So a lot of people with ADHD in school, they have a lot of emotional regulation interventions and approaches."},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":1462.619,"endTime":1469.7389999999998,"body":"But if you don't look at the hypermobility, dyspraxia, for example, DCD, and the interplay of"},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":1469.7389999999998,"endTime":1476.014,"body":"that with the emotions, I won't go into it too far, we can see the dysregulation."},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":1476.7949999999998,"endTime":1479.2949999999998,"body":"So that's a really important paper as well."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1479.435,"endTime":1489.75,"body":"What are your recommendations? What can we do to help pupils, I guess, manage and understand their pain?"},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":1490.1299999999999,"endTime":1495.1899999999998,"body":"I think what we need is obviously funding to make this, I mean, global."},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":1495.25,"endTime":1497.6699999999998,"body":"It's going to be huge. It's going to happen."},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":1497.8899999999999,"endTime":1503.4299999999998,"body":"But think neurodivergent, think hypermobility and vice versa until you're no different."},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":1504.195,"endTime":1509.895,"body":"If they have key indicators like the Beighton scale and we've got symptom checkers."},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":1510.195,"endTime":1516.49,"body":"So if you've got migraines, stomachache, fatigue, allergies, particularly eczema, you might"},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":1516.49,"endTime":1518.9699999999998,"body":"want to look further into it vice versa."},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":1518.9699999999998,"endTime":1526.73,"body":"When I did a a webinar about a year ago, I was talking to local advisory teachers, my my ex peers."},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":1526.73,"endTime":1528.145,"body":"It's always scary doing that."},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":1528.465,"endTime":1536.5449999999998,"body":"About 350 of them and one said you know I've taught 100s and 100s and 100s of autistic children"},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":1536.5449999999998,"endTime":1540.0849999999998,"body":"and advised them and their teachers and ADHD children."},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":1540.32,"endTime":1544.8999999999999,"body":"None of them had an Ehlers Danlos diagnosis and I said no they probably don't."},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":1545.4399999999998,"endTime":1550.8999999999999,"body":"She said but they all complained of symptoms you've just mentioned and she said I'm actually"},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":1551.04,"endTime":1557.935,"body":"trembling thinking about it now that I didn't know this and I think you can't feel guilty about it."},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":1557.935,"endTime":1564.0349999999999,"body":"We.. I've been doing this for a while but it takes a while for this knowledge and understanding"},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":1564.0949999999998,"endTime":1569.9089999999999,"body":"and acceptance that something physical with neuro divergence is real."},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":1570.129,"endTime":1571.7489999999998,"body":"We want to be believed."},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":1572.369,"endTime":1576.31,"body":"I am still asking to be believed even now at my age."},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":1576.85,"endTime":1580.945,"body":"So I think we are just one charity although we're growing quite big."},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":1581.5049999999999,"endTime":1586.485,"body":"We want to connect to other educators that's what you can do as educators yourself."},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":1586.945,"endTime":1588.884,"body":"We want to do training."},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":1589.024,"endTime":1594.945,"body":"We are talking to policy makers and I do a lot of think tank talks and so on."},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":1594.945,"endTime":1600.4299999999998,"body":"I'm usually squashed in in inside mental health so it's always quite interesting."},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":1600.73,"endTime":1607.629,"body":"But I as I said I'm not against mental health it's very much an interplay but we cannot do one without the other."},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":1607.6899999999998,"endTime":1610.6699999999998,"body":"It's like the social model and the medical model."},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":1610.904,"endTime":1613.885,"body":"We want the biopsychosocial medical model."},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":1614.105,"endTime":1620.985,"body":"My members and their children, their parents are crying out for a medical model to believe us."},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":1620.985,"endTime":1623.885,"body":"It's not just about the social model and the environment."},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":1624.8249999999998,"endTime":1631.25,"body":"The environment is really key if you're, in secondary, particularly children might need to put"},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":1631.25,"endTime":1636.61,"body":"their legs up to help with the dysentery, the dizziness, and so on. Things like that."},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":1636.61,"endTime":1642.435,"body":"Having water, having electrolytes, some people need them regularly."},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":1643.0549999999998,"endTime":1648.2549999999999,"body":"Looking at the eating issues, are they always an eating disorder? Is it actually pain?"},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":1648.2549999999999,"endTime":1650.5749999999998,"body":"I was vomiting all the time, you know."},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":1650.5749999999998,"endTime":1654.5949999999998,"body":"Is it for younger children? Is it toileting? Are they floppy?"},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":1654.735,"endTime":1657.389,"body":"Are they misbehaving if you like?"},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":1657.769,"endTime":1663.1299999999999,"body":"But is it something else could actually be pain and we we often need movement."},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":1663.1299999999999,"endTime":1668.605,"body":"You will find me if you ever meet me, I'm always fidgeting. I'm always moving."},{"speaker":"If I'm talking in a big conference I'm moving around and that's because A","startTime":1668.665,"endTime":1674.185,"body":"I want to know where"},{"speaker":"If I'm talking in a big conference I'm moving around and that's because A","startTime":1674.185,"endTime":1679.225,"body":"my limbs are and remind them they're connected to me because they're extraneous joint noises"},{"speaker":"going on but B","startTime":1679.225,"endTime":1681.8049999999998,"body":"I need the feedback."},{"speaker":"going on but B","startTime":1682.11,"endTime":1684.27,"body":"I need that feedback all the time."},{"speaker":"going on but B","startTime":1684.27,"endTime":1688.05,"body":"You need some movement or you need some dream time or downtime."},{"speaker":"going on but B","startTime":1688.51,"endTime":1692.6699999999998,"body":"We've got the autonomic I won't go into it, but the autonomic nervous system."},{"speaker":"going on but B","startTime":1692.6699999999998,"endTime":1697.8249999999998,"body":"Sometimes we need to calm it down, but sometimes we need to rise it up, but we're quite extreme"},{"speaker":"going on but B","startTime":1698.205,"endTime":1703.3249999999998,"body":"like that and that's how you get the best outcomes for the child but what I really think they"},{"speaker":"going on but B","startTime":1703.3249999999998,"endTime":1706.144,"body":"need is support and management to encourage them."},{"speaker":"going on but B","startTime":1706.524,"endTime":1709.4199999999998,"body":"So shoes are really key."},{"speaker":"going on but B","startTime":1709.58,"endTime":1715.359,"body":"Teenagers might need different shoes that support the ankle or use special insoles and orthotics."},{"speaker":"going on but B","startTime":1716.139,"endTime":1717.58,"body":"They don't look like their peers."},{"speaker":"going on but B","startTime":1717.58,"endTime":1719.6799999999998,"body":"They might not wear them. I write about this."},{"speaker":"going on but B","startTime":1719.7389999999998,"endTime":1724.3149999999998,"body":"That's okay because actually that's their choice as a teenager."},{"speaker":"going on but B","startTime":1724.375,"endTime":1726.955,"body":"I think we have to go with it. You can't make them."},{"speaker":"going on but B","startTime":1727.0949999999998,"endTime":1732.935,"body":"Sometimes they might need lift passes, but you've seen them running the next morning and they"},{"speaker":"going on but B","startTime":1732.935,"endTime":1734.455,"body":"said, well, they don't need it. Yes."},{"speaker":"going on but B","startTime":1734.455,"endTime":1738.2199999999998,"body":"They do Because they'll get extremely fatigued and dizzy."},{"speaker":"going on but B","startTime":1738.52,"endTime":1741.0,"body":"Same with wheelchairs or or walking sticks."},{"speaker":"going on but B","startTime":1741.0,"endTime":1748.0149999999999,"body":"So if you've got a a health care plan, definitely, you know, don't take away things just because"},{"speaker":"going on but B","startTime":1748.0149999999999,"endTime":1749.455,"body":"they seem to be better."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1749.455,"endTime":1752.495,"body":"You make a really important point there, actually, because I've seen this with the work"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1752.495,"endTime":1758.7549999999999,"body":"that we do in schools that sometimes people see kids in a snapshot of time and they appear to be okay."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1758.895,"endTime":1761.955,"body":"So they start saying, well, they don't need x, y, and z anymore."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1762.23,"endTime":1767.1899999999998,"body":"But, actually, when you look at them later in the day or across the week, actually taking that"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1767.1899999999998,"endTime":1771.59,"body":"away because you saw them in a sort of 3 minute snapshot where they didn't appear to need that."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1771.59,"endTime":1775.135,"body":"Or perhaps they didn't in that moment, you know, like, literally need it."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1775.2949999999998,"endTime":1781.2949999999998,"body":"That doesn't mean that it's a useful support through throughout the rest of the week."},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":1781.2949999999998,"endTime":1786.2549999999999,"body":"Yeah. I mean, as an advisory teacher, we'd go in, and I always said, I want to see them in this"},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":1786.2549999999999,"endTime":1788.7549999999999,"body":"context, in this context, in this context."},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":1789.2949999999998,"endTime":1794.5,"body":"But, absolutely, if you think hypermobility is there, is it walk the walk?"},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":1794.8,"endTime":1796.1,"body":"You know, do their day."},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":1796.24,"endTime":1797.9199999999998,"body":"Walk the walk if you've got time."},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":1797.9199999999998,"endTime":1803.76,"body":"But that's what I say is do that walk and see how they get through the day and why they're so"},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":1803.76,"endTime":1805.4599999999998,"body":"fatigued at the end of the day."},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":1805.8149999999998,"endTime":1811.7549999999999,"body":"And the parents are probably saying they completely crashed out whatever they're doing. That's probably why."},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":1812.615,"endTime":1816.695,"body":"They might really enjoy it but they can't they can't cope if they're not believed."},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":1816.695,"endTime":1822.2199999999998,"body":"So I'm going back to that belief and it's not that they don't want to be there but sometimes"},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":1822.2199999999998,"endTime":1827.6799999999998,"body":"we need to somehow get some more flexibility for why they can't be in school or particularly"},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":1828.1399999999999,"endTime":1833.04,"body":"at teenage years and I've got some at primary who can't get to school on time."},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":1833.144,"endTime":1834.3449999999998,"body":"We need to work on that."},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":1834.3449999999998,"endTime":1840.445,"body":"It's really, really difficult for them because in the morning with dizziness, this this, oxygenated"},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":1840.8249999999998,"endTime":1847.6899999999998,"body":"blood, it's really hard to get enough fluids and electrolytes in and it it most appears in the morning."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1847.83,"endTime":1850.73,"body":"We're a big, you know, supporter of sort of the EBSA model."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1850.9499999999998,"endTime":1857.27,"body":"But when you're thinking about often schools go the court root, you know, you you can see the difficulties there."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1857.27,"endTime":1860.7099999999998,"body":"When you know about this research and you have this information, you think things through."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1860.7099999999998,"endTime":1863.5049999999999,"body":"So policy makers there's a there's a new piece there."},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":1864.0449999999998,"endTime":1869.3249999999998,"body":"Some parents do mention they are accused of fabricated induced illness because they've got all"},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":1869.3249999999998,"endTime":1873.485,"body":"these injuries, illness, and fatigue, and they don't know why, what's going on."},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":1873.485,"endTime":1875.985,"body":"The child doesn't know why, but they don't look well."},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":1876.3799999999999,"endTime":1878.3799999999999,"body":"Or they're they're told they're making it up."},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":1878.3799999999999,"endTime":1883.58,"body":"I've got pediatricians who've actually been with their children been accused of this which is"},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":1883.58,"endTime":1892.715,"body":"completely bizarre and I also think examination is a key too because of the support of writing and the brain fog."},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":1892.715,"endTime":1896.5749999999998,"body":"So they need electrolytes, fluids or movement breaks."},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":1896.635,"endTime":1903.8,"body":"And so we're just writing something on JCQ what these students might need if it's agreed."},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":1903.8,"endTime":1910.54,"body":"So hopefully there will be more knowledge in with the government policies DFE but in the meantime"},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":1910.6,"endTime":1916.8149999999998,"body":"we can all do something do look at our paper number 1 probably see if it makes sense I think"},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":1916.8149999999998,"endTime":1921.935,"body":"it does but our paper is really interesting it's quite easy to read actually it's not a very"},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":1921.935,"endTime":1928.735,"body":"very technical one in that sense and I think some of the quotes really hit home what we've picked"},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":1928.735,"endTime":1936.1599999999999,"body":"out there and why children you might see them where the behaviour changes, but actually is linked to something else."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1936.3,"endTime":1938.2199999999998,"body":"Yeah. This is really important new knowledge."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1938.2199999999998,"endTime":1941.6599999999999,"body":"And and thank you for bringing it to our attention, Jane."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1941.6599999999999,"endTime":1946.685,"body":"I mean, I would say, like, I've been supporting schools for over 17 years now."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1946.685,"endTime":1949.725,"body":"And until you brought this to my attention, I've never heard of it."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1949.725,"endTime":1953.885,"body":"So there'll be people listening to this just like me for the first time thinking, yeah, I can"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1953.885,"endTime":1956.625,"body":"picture my response in that situation. Oh my goodness."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1956.9399999999998,"endTime":1960.86,"body":"But to people who are thinking that actually, you you've gotta give yourself some leeway and"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1960.86,"endTime":1964.3799999999999,"body":"think everyone's doing the best they can with the knowledge they have at the time."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1964.3799999999999,"endTime":1965.6599999999999,"body":"So now we've got this knowledge."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1965.6599999999999,"endTime":1967.98,"body":"It can help us support the kids moving forward too."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1967.98,"endTime":1970.32,"body":"Jane, we ask this of all our guests."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1970.915,"endTime":1975.955,"body":"Who's the key figure that's influenced you, or what's the key book that you've read that's had"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1975.955,"endTime":1979.175,"body":"the biggest impact on your approach to working with kids?"},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":1979.7949999999998,"endTime":1985.894,"body":"Book wise, I always loved The Chronicles of Narnia because of the creativity and the fantasy"},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":1986.0339999999999,"endTime":1989.1299999999999,"body":"and the pure joy of that."},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":1989.1299999999999,"endTime":1992.35,"body":"But I also I'm gonna pick 2. Sorry."},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":1992.57,"endTime":1996.51,"body":"Philip Pullman because of the fantasy and creativity as well."},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":1996.6499999999999,"endTime":2000.895,"body":"He writes about, you know, the child doing it for themself."},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":2001.115,"endTime":2007.355,"body":"If you don't have that that belief in you, if you're squashed in creativity or whatever it is"},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":2007.355,"endTime":2011.995,"body":"you're doing, you know, you can do it for yourself and motivate yourself."},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":2011.995,"endTime":2014.5749999999998,"body":"And I I find that really really inspiring."},{"speaker":"I loved, I don't, I'm not a practicing teacher now because A: I got quite ill and B","startTime":2015.1799999999998,"endTime":2021.74,"body":"I'm running"},{"speaker":"I loved, I don't, I'm not a practicing teacher now because A: I got quite ill and B","startTime":2021.74,"endTime":2029.754,"body":"a charity, but that creativity is always a spark for every child I believe in whatever area whether"},{"speaker":"I loved, I don't, I'm not a practicing teacher now because A: I got quite ill and B","startTime":2029.754,"endTime":2033.5339999999999,"body":"it is in math, science, STEM or sport."},{"speaker":"I loved, I don't, I'm not a practicing teacher now because A: I got quite ill and B","startTime":2033.675,"endTime":2040.475,"body":"It's the creative structure we're doing and I believe that's our passion and motivation and I love joy."},{"speaker":"I loved, I don't, I'm not a practicing teacher now because A: I got quite ill and B","startTime":2040.475,"endTime":2046.4099999999999,"body":"I know what it's like to lose nearly everything And I think having joy is really key."},{"speaker":"I loved, I don't, I'm not a practicing teacher now because A: I got quite ill and B","startTime":2046.4099999999999,"endTime":2048.9900000000002,"body":"So that's why I love those books."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":2049.77,"endTime":2056.67,"body":"Jane, can you tell us how we can find out more about the work you've been doing, the research that's related to this?"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":2056.955,"endTime":2058.555,"body":"You talked about, your paper."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":2058.555,"endTime":2060.415,"body":"Can you tell us how to get a hold of that, please?"},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":2061.275,"endTime":2069.6150000000002,"body":"Yes. Of course. On our website, we have a research section, so relevant research should be on there. It's www.sedsconnective"},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":2072.72,"endTime":2079.86,"body":"dot org. SENSEconnective stands for symptomatic hypermobility Ehlers Danlos neurodivergent syndrome"},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":2080.32,"endTime":2086.465,"body":"in Sussex where we started, but we're now global and connective because it's I think you've got"},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":2086.465,"endTime":2089.205,"body":"the ideas about connective tissue now."},{"speaker":"Jane Green","startTime":2089.425,"endTime":2095.045,"body":"And, you know, there's a lovely saying, if you can't connect the issues, think connective tissues."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":2095.665,"endTime":2096.93,"body":"Oh, yeah. That's really neat."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":2096.93,"endTime":2101.889,"body":"And I'll put a direct link to the website in if you're listening to the audio version of the"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":2101.889,"endTime":2103.909,"body":"podcast, it'll be in the episode description."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":2104.21,"endTime":2108.69,"body":"And if you're watching this on YouTube, I'll put the a direct link through in the comments as"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":2108.69,"endTime":2111.595,"body":"well so you can click straight through. Thank you."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":2111.735,"endTime":2117.975,"body":"And that was my conversation with Jane Green, MBE, about the link between neurodivergence and pain."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":2117.975,"endTime":2124.35,"body":"That's really important new work that's everybody in school who works in school needs to know about."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":2124.35,"endTime":2131.01,"body":"If you want to know more, head straight to Jane's website, sedsconnective.org, and SEDS is spelled S E D S connective.org."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":2133.39,"endTime":2136.99,"body":"I'll put a direct link as I promised during the interview in the show notes."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":2136.99,"endTime":2139.15,"body":"I hope you found today's show useful."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":2139.15,"endTime":2141.1949999999997,"body":"If you have, make sure you share it."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":2141.1949999999997,"endTime":2142.315,"body":"Don't keep it to yourself."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":2142.315,"endTime":2146.7149999999997,"body":"Let's get that knowledge out there to all of the school leaders and the school teachers and"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":2146.7149999999997,"endTime":2149.535,"body":"the parents who need this to support their kids."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":2149.755,"endTime":2153.929,"body":"I hope you have a brilliant week, and I can't wait to see you next time on School Behaviour Secrets."}]}