{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":87.42999999999999,"endTime":93.609,"body":"Are you working in a school or classroom where behaviour is just not clicking or you feel there's a a sense of disconnection,"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":93.669,"endTime":100.02499999999999,"body":"there's a gap between your students and your staff, or perhaps you want to know about new ways of supporting children with"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":100.02499999999999,"endTime":106.02499999999999,"body":"their behaviour or their social, emotional, and mental health needs, then stay tuned because this episode is for you."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":106.02499999999999,"endTime":113.5,"body":"In my interview with Stephen Steinhaus, we're going to unpack what a relational behaviour policy actually is, the impact it"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":113.5,"endTime":123.02,"body":"can have for your students and your staff, and we look at how actually a relational approach is foundational to every aspect of teaching and learning in schools."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":123.02,"endTime":127.91999999999999,"body":"It's not just about the behaviour policy itself. Stay tuned for that. I'll be back after the music."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":128.605,"endTime":133.165,"body":"Welcome to the School Behaviour Secrets podcast. I'm your host, Simon Currigan."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":133.165,"endTime":139.905,"body":"My cohost is Emma Shackleton, and we're obsessed with helping teachers, school leaders, parents, and, of course, students"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":139.964,"endTime":142.865,"body":"when classroom behaviour gets in the way of success."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":142.925,"endTime":149.119,"body":"We're gonna share the tried and tested secrets to classroom management, behavioural special needs, whole school strategy, and"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":149.119,"endTime":153.219,"body":"more, all with the aim of helping your students reach their true potential."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":153.51999999999998,"endTime":160.385,"body":"Plus, we'll be letting you eavesdrop on our conversations with thought leaders from around the world, so you'll get to hear"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":160.385,"endTime":164.065,"body":"the latest evidence based strategies before anyone else."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":164.065,"endTime":168.785,"body":"This is the School Behaviour Secrets podcast. Hi there."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":168.785,"endTime":174.47,"body":"My name is Simon Currigan from Beacon School Support, and welcome to this week's episode of School Behaviour Secrets where"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":174.47,"endTime":184.49,"body":"we're going to be looking at what a relational behaviour policy actually is and how it can have a positive impact for your students and your staff."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":184.55,"endTime":192.375,"body":"In my interview with Steven Steinhaus, he's going to actually explore what makes a good relational behaviour policy and how"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":192.755,"endTime":199.315,"body":"a relational behaviour policy is actually about having higher standards for your pupils than it is about removing boundaries or"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":199.315,"endTime":206.36,"body":"expectations, which is a misunderstanding that many people have about this approach to working with children."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":206.74,"endTime":212.68,"body":"If you're finding School Behaviour Secrets useful, before we get into all that, what I'd like to ask you to do is to remember to like and subscribe."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":212.98,"endTime":217.48,"body":"Because when you do this, whether you're watching the video version of the podcast or whether you are listening to the audio,"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":218.135,"endTime":224.61499999999998,"body":"it prompts the algorithm to share this information with other school leaders, teachers, and and parents just like you so we"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":224.61499999999998,"endTime":228.45499999999998,"body":"can get this information out there to as many people as possible."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":228.45499999999998,"endTime":235.0,"body":"And, also, remember to share it maybe 1, 2, or 3 colleagues that you think would find this information useful so it can have"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":235.0,"endTime":238.62,"body":"a positive impact in as many schools as possible."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":239.16,"endTime":247.835,"body":"If you're watching this, we've got a really useful download that's completely free that complements the contents of this interview really, really well."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":247.835,"endTime":254.634,"body":"It's called the classroom management score sheet, and what it does is it gives you a list of objective actions that you're"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":254.634,"endTime":258.315,"body":"taking or not taking in the classroom in terms of your whole class management."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":258.315,"endTime":261.54999999999995,"body":"So maybe things aren't quite working the way you would like in class."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":261.54999999999995,"endTime":264.77,"body":"Do you think there's improvements that could be made around behaviour?"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":264.83,"endTime":272.405,"body":"Or maybe you just want to check that you're engaging in best practice in terms of behaviour and relationships, then this download can help."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":272.485,"endTime":279.524,"body":"It gives you a list of factors so you tick off a checklist of things that you're doing or not doing, and it gives you action"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":279.524,"endTime":283.604,"body":"items to make sure that you're improving your practice. And guess what?"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":283.604,"endTime":289.53,"body":"It's got a heavy focus on relational practice, forming those relationships, engaging with the children, and making sure they're"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":289.53,"endTime":294.57,"body":"connecting their learning with their future desires, what they want to get out of life."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":294.57,"endTime":300.57399999999996,"body":"So they understand the purpose of the learning, and we all know that when kids are engaged and they understand the why of"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":300.57399999999996,"endTime":306.735,"body":"what they're doing and how it connects with their lives, then they're more likely to behave well beyond task and achieve their potential."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":306.735,"endTime":312.48,"body":"You can get it from our website, beaconschoolsupport.co.uk, and I'll put a direct link in the show notes."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":312.48,"endTime":316.88,"body":"If you're listening to the podcast, all you have to do is click on the podcast artwork usually and it will pop up."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":316.88,"endTime":319.36,"body":"There's a direct link there, and you'll be able to click directly through."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":319.36,"endTime":324.02,"body":"Or if you're watching this on YouTube, I will put a direct link in the comments."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":324.155,"endTime":330.714,"body":"So with all that said, it's time for my interview with Stephen Steinhaus on the impact of relational behaviour policies, what"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":330.714,"endTime":337.73,"body":"goes into a a relational behaviour policy, and the skills your teachers need to be able to implement that in your school."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":339.25,"endTime":343.73,"body":"So I'm very excited to welcome Stephen Steinhaus to the show today."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":343.73,"endTime":348.92999999999995,"body":"Stephen was born and raised in Chicago, but has lived in England for almost 25 years."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":348.92999999999995,"endTime":356.605,"body":"He opened Solihull Academy, an alternative provision free school for students in danger of permanent exclusion, in April 2018."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":356.905,"endTime":364.265,"body":"The academy converted to a multi academy trust in September 2022, and he's continuing to expand across the West Midlands with"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":364.265,"endTime":367.41999999999996,"body":"sites now in Solihull, Coventry, and Warwickshire."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":367.41999999999996,"endTime":370.88,"body":"Additionally, Stephen sits on the secondary council for the NAHT."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":371.019,"endTime":377.6,"body":"That's the National Association of Head Teachers and his coregional lead in the West Midlands for PRUs and APs."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":378.155,"endTime":391.58000000000004,"body":"He speaks at a growing number of conferences about, amongst other things, alternative provision, behaviour inclusion, curriculum intervention, attendance, SEND, and commissioning. Welcome to the show, Stephen. It's great to have you here."},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":391.82000000000005,"endTime":392.86,"body":"Thank you for having me."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":392.86,"endTime":396.22,"body":"I'm interested to tap into your experience today. We're gonna talk about behaviour policies."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":396.22,"endTime":405.02,"body":"And for me, behaviour policies are about how we how we kind of, like, transfer our aims and values, our sort of big picture"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":405.02,"endTime":410.66499999999996,"body":"stuff in school into actions that people take to create that culture that work that we're after."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":411.20500000000004,"endTime":413.525,"body":"And we're gonna talk about relational behaviour policy."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":413.525,"endTime":420.32500000000005,"body":"So I wanna kick off by asking, so what exactly is a relational behaviour policy, and how is that different from what we've done in the past?"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":420.32500000000005,"endTime":424.269,"body":"How is it different from an inverted comma \"traditional\" behaviour policy?"},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":425.21000000000004,"endTime":434.35,"body":"If one chooses to use the phrase behaviour management, which is now kinda old money, when schools have been at their worst"},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":434.625,"endTime":446.06499999999994,"body":"in terms of behaviour management, then old school behaviour policies function as essentially a how to guide to get rid. So it's a how to guide."},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":446.06499999999994,"endTime":448.644,"body":"How do I get this child out of my classroom?"},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":449.10900000000004,"endTime":454.80999999999995,"body":"How do I get this child out of school for a few days for respite?"},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":455.42999999999995,"endTime":464.155,"body":"Or how do I get this child out of sight, out of mind, either moving into a different provision or permanently excluded."},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":464.45399999999995,"endTime":474.635,"body":"And looking with a negative view at some of those old school behaviour policies, that's what it is."},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":474.69500000000005,"endTime":484.66999999999996,"body":"So relational means that behaviour is relationships. Behaviour is communication."},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":485.21000000000004,"endTime":493.30999999999995,"body":"And so and and particularly now post pandemic and post Brexit, austerity movement, all those things."},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":494.845,"endTime":506.06499999999994,"body":"You know, you have to think about behaviour and learning behaviours in particular as the bottom line is, why the heck should a kid behave?"},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":507.08500000000004,"endTime":513.92,"body":"What expectations cultural expectations of the school, of of the home?"},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":514.54,"endTime":517.58,"body":"What, role models do they have going before them?"},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":517.58,"endTime":528.625,"body":"Because all those rights of passage and totems and milestones that one, again, in old money would say, yeah. Well, this is what everybody does."},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":528.685,"endTime":534.685,"body":"Even back then, that was a challenge for a number of our our young people."},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":534.685,"endTime":542.71,"body":"But now, a number a further number of our young people are challenging those assumptions. Well, why should I do that?"},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":542.93,"endTime":551.975,"body":"So the relational element is understanding that we need to pay in and be deliberate with how we are working with with our"},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":551.975,"endTime":561.8149999999999,"body":"young people so that they are exhibiting the learning behaviors that we need them exhibit to exhibit in order to learn what"},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":561.8149999999999,"endTime":563.995,"body":"we're trying to help them to learn."},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":564.4399999999999,"endTime":573.8,"body":"It's, you know, the the very simple and I use it even though it's kind of a a fast metaphor of you know you're gonna you're"},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":573.8,"endTime":575.4,"body":"gonna take out of the piggy bank."},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":575.4,"endTime":582.085,"body":"You know you're gonna be withdrawing, so you better be paying in 1st. You can't start from empty."},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":582.085,"endTime":584.425,"body":"You're not you're not going into overdraft."},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":585.125,"endTime":594.979,"body":"And because overdraft in in our system, in any school system, is goodwill, is is, you know, this is what is expected."},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":595.039,"endTime":607.365,"body":"Well, what have you done as an educator, as as a provision, as an as a school, as an academy to engender that buy in rather than just expect it."},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":607.985,"endTime":612.785,"body":"You know, it's that old adage of if you want respect, you need to earn it. Well, that's what we're talking about."},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":612.785,"endTime":621.2,"body":"It's earning what in some cases for young people are unnatural artificial asks and behaviours."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":622.46,"endTime":627.58,"body":"What we're teaching the kids doesn't connect with their real lives, and it does no longer connect with what happens in the"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":627.58,"endTime":630.38,"body":"real world or what they're expected to do when they go into employment."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":630.38,"endTime":637.495,"body":"There are there are kids sitting in lessons thinking, what on earth does this have to do with my life, my ambitions, the way the real world works?"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":637.495,"endTime":639.595,"body":"And then we wonder why they're not interested."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":640.0550000000001,"endTime":647.655,"body":"And then you throw on behaviour policies that are kind of stuck, and then you get this sort of tension between the teachers"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":647.655,"endTime":652.4,"body":"and the kids because we're not actually digging deeper into in into why they're behaving that way."},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":652.4,"endTime":660.9,"body":"Yeah. And and, I think the relational aspects are also the relevant aspects exactly as you say, Simon."},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":661.0400000000001,"endTime":665.3000000000001,"body":"So relational behaviour is is the curriculum."},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":666.864,"endTime":675.585,"body":"You can call it a behaviour curriculum and teaching learning behaviours, but, also, it's the adaptive curriculum. Previously I was an English teacher."},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":675.585,"endTime":684.3000000000001,"body":"Previously, vast majority of kids would learn paragraph structure when we were working on it because I said, we're gonna learn paragraph structure."},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":684.999,"endTime":695.26,"body":"There wasn't the the the urgency of the why. Why are we learning this? Why are we doing this? How are we learning this? How are we doing this?"},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":695.32,"endTime":709.77,"body":"Those are all questions that adaptive curriculum and relational behaviour makes primary in that transaction between educator and educated."},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":710.23,"endTime":720.89,"body":"And the pandemic calls into question the the the essence of schooling as compared to the essence of learning."},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":721.855,"endTime":725.475,"body":"You know, I've I've mentioned this previously in other podcast interviews."},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":725.535,"endTime":732.995,"body":"My oldest son did his is in his 3rd rotation as a junior pediatric orthopedic surgeon in France."},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":733.85,"endTime":742.83,"body":"He went to med school in France, and halfway through his medical degree stopped going to lectures because he said, I'm not learning from them. I'm learning from this."},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":743.53,"endTime":746.49,"body":"No one can argue that he hasn't learned what he needed to learn."},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":746.49,"endTime":754.225,"body":"He passed his national exams in a second language, but the bricks and mortar didn't matter. You know?"},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":754.225,"endTime":758.405,"body":"So it's a relational behaviour policy says, okay."},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":758.785,"endTime":769.27,"body":"These are our, expectations or nonnegotiables, but also says, this is what we're going to invest in order to get the best"},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":769.35,"endTime":771.85,"body":"get those glimmers out of our students."},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":772.47,"endTime":783.265,"body":"Because, you know, a a a good behaviour policy, whether you call it relational or not, doesn't really apply some of those some"},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":783.265,"endTime":789.285,"body":"of those appendices and what not doesn't really apply to 85% of the school."},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":789.505,"endTime":795.1890000000001,"body":"But a good behaviour policy also drives those 85%."},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":796.53,"endTime":799.99,"body":"Because it's not just about what happens when you do something wrong."},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":800.45,"endTime":806.869,"body":"It's about what do we expect in terms of being a member of our community and eventually being a member of the wider community,"},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":807.09,"endTime":809.35,"body":"and how are we transferring those skills."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":809.624,"endTime":815.865,"body":"Sometimes I talk to teachers. This tends to be more at secondary just because of the way the curriculum's laid out, but they"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":815.865,"endTime":820.445,"body":"love their subject, and they say, I am here to impart my subject knowledge to the kids."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":820.825,"endTime":825.85,"body":"And this behaviuor stuff, this relational stuff, this is this is stuff that other people should be doing."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":825.85,"endTime":833.45,"body":"I do kinda think in a world with chat GPT, it can already explain it 6 ways 6 different ways, probably explain it in more"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":833.45,"endTime":836.01,"body":"detail, give more examples, do it in a more interactive way."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":836.01,"endTime":843.035,"body":"One of the only things we have to offer in 5 years' time above some of these teaching methods is our humanity and our ability"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":843.035,"endTime":848.875,"body":"to engage and reach people on a human level and make those kind of adaptations that computers just simply can't do."},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":848.875,"endTime":858.53,"body":"You know, I guess probably when I was trained to teach, as when you were trained to teach, Simon, there was still that element"},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":858.99,"endTime":869.1750000000001,"body":"of you you need to know your subject so you can fill up their cups kinda thing as opposed you need to now you need to know"},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":869.1750000000001,"endTime":878.3140000000001,"body":"your subject so you can address the gaps and so you can light a fire. It's the same thing."},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":878.455,"endTime":885.3100000000001,"body":"I was I was working with a school in Warwickshire, and I was talking to this member of staff about a similar query."},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":885.3100000000001,"endTime":893.87,"body":"It's like, well, you know, I I am a history specialist and this, and I said, well he said, so what do I need to do, small talk?"},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":893.87,"endTime":897.285,"body":"And I said, well, yeah, sort of."},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":897.285,"endTime":900.905,"body":"Is that you're trying to make a human connection."},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":901.285,"endTime":913.72,"body":"So, you know, as subject specialists and people who have gone into teaching because they're passionate about those subject I mean, I did. That's why I went into teaching. It's because I love English literature. I love I love drama."},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":913.72,"endTime":921.559,"body":"I love Shakespeare and Brecht and and Arthur Miller and Toni Morrison and all these things. So what I yes."},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":921.559,"endTime":930.595,"body":"I'm trying to impart knowledge, but I'm also trying to inspire, and that's where the relational element has diversified."},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":930.975,"endTime":944.1700000000001,"body":"Because I may not be inspiring the next generation of English professors, but what I am inspiring is the next generation, full stop."},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":945.749,"endTime":957.2950000000001,"body":"And that relational policy says, I need to be not just an expert, but a role model of behaviours of how I make connections"},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":957.2950000000001,"endTime":968.11,"body":"with people, how I regulate, how I deal with upset, you know, how I interact with people, how how I react when challenged."},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":968.41,"endTime":980.895,"body":"Those are with schools increasingly footing the bill for society in terms of SEMH, in terms of safeguarding, in terms of social"},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":980.895,"endTime":993.255,"body":"care and social skills and whatnot, then it is incumbent upon us to look at all of those issues in the context of a a a learning"},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":993.255,"endTime":1004.65,"body":"unit, a learning moment, a teachable moment, because a teachable moment requires engaging on any number of those fronts in order to get that information across."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1005.91,"endTime":1011.765,"body":"Some people will be listening to this, right, and they'll be thinking, is this the same as just getting rid of rules and boundaries?"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1012.465,"endTime":1016.325,"body":"How is this consistent with high expectations in school?"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1017.105,"endTime":1019.745,"body":"What would you say to people that are kinda raising those questions?"},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":1019.745,"endTime":1022.885,"body":"There is that element of improvisation and adaptation."},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":1024.36,"endTime":1032.94,"body":"But in order to adapt and improvise, you need to know not just your subject, but your lesson plan and your students."},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":1034.12,"endTime":1039.244,"body":"Like, whatever is is more knowable than the back of your hand."},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":1039.244,"endTime":1044.5439999999999,"body":"I mean, you need to be in deep with that in order to do that."},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":1044.924,"endTime":1054.61,"body":"But, also, when students come to us, And in the old days, and I still do this on some occasions, that a student who is referred"},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":1055.1499999999999,"endTime":1068.595,"body":"either for some support from our trust or into our trust, they in the old days when I was principal of our first school, I would meet them first. And it's a very simple thing."},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":1069.935,"endTime":1082.59,"body":"If you can sit in a room at the age of 13 with a 6 foot 4, and back in those days, 345lb skinhead American guy, and talk about"},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":1082.809,"endTime":1091.845,"body":"your education and your school and your issues and your triggers and your, you you know, best practice and the interventions"},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":1091.905,"endTime":1100.725,"body":"that you've had and what's gone wrong and the the accuracy of what your home school has said about your educational career."},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":1101.905,"endTime":1105.55,"body":"If, man, isn't that the highest expectation?"},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":1105.93,"endTime":1116.365,"body":"We're putting you in that situation, and what we are expecting is for you to be able to engage at that level with a stranger,"},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":1116.745,"endTime":1121.485,"body":"for for all intents and purposes, who owes you nothing and you owe nothing."},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":1121.7849999999999,"endTime":1132.129,"body":"So a relational behaviour policy has the highest expectations is that we are expecting you to engage and to improve your engagement"},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":1133.07,"endTime":1146.2949999999998,"body":"as a young or future adult who can be aware of their limitations, be that limitations in in terms of need or be that limit"},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":1146.455,"endTime":1156.395,"body":"limitations in terms of understanding, you know, electrons, whatever that whatever that gap or limitation is, this is the highest expectation."},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":1156.7749999999999,"endTime":1166.33,"body":"In on our worst days, with a with an old school behavior policy or with a relational policy, in our worst days, a child who"},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":1166.33,"endTime":1176.865,"body":"is struggling to master the concept that you are asking them to engage with in your lesson Never engages with it because they"},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":1176.865,"endTime":1178.645,"body":"know how to get out of it."},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":1179.105,"endTime":1187.2649999999999,"body":"If I throw a pencil, if I pop this kid in the ribs, if I call that person something I shouldn't call, if I get up and walk"},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":1187.2649999999999,"endTime":1195.1699999999998,"body":"out, you know, the day walker phenomenon, then I don't have to grapple with something that I don't understand."},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":1195.55,"endTime":1198.4299999999998,"body":"Now it may not be my fault that I don't understand it."},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":1198.4299999999998,"endTime":1201.2489999999998,"body":"It's because of the building blocks that aren't there."},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":1202.8249999999998,"endTime":1212.3449999999998,"body":"And so that relational part behaviour approach alongside that adaptive curriculum is my job is not necessarily to get them to"},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":1212.3449999999998,"endTime":1215.3249999999998,"body":"master the concept that I put up on the board as a learning objective."},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":1215.62,"endTime":1224.98,"body":"My job is to understand what building blocks are missing from in terms of academics or mental health or or regulation or whatever"},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":1224.98,"endTime":1231.175,"body":"it is that I can address that to then try and get them to that concept."},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":1231.5549999999998,"endTime":1236.995,"body":"People can say, well, they're disrupting lessons, so they need to go, and I take that."},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":1236.995,"endTime":1244.0549999999998,"body":"But what it also does is it means they never grapple with the beast of what you're trying to get them to do in the first place."},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":1244.49,"endTime":1250.75,"body":"And all that in incumbent and inherent learning that will get them to that place."},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":1251.1299999999999,"endTime":1256.615,"body":"That's high expect that but, also, that's hugely high expectations of the staff as well."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1256.7749999999999,"endTime":1258.135,"body":"Now can I ask a question about that?"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1258.135,"endTime":1263.655,"body":"Because in my head here, I'm I'm trying to picture myself as, say, a headteacher or deputy head is who's interested in this."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1263.655,"endTime":1271.8799999999999,"body":"And the thing is with the traditional behavior policy, actually implementing it is dead easy. You've got a set of rules. Kids are out of line. You do x, y, z. You follow a flowchart."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1271.9399999999998,"endTime":1276.6,"body":"If a if a child does the right thing, x, y, z, you slap a sticker on them or a house point or whatever."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1276.6599999999999,"endTime":1280.04,"body":"They are very simple systematic things to implement."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1280.4199999999998,"endTime":1286.8539999999998,"body":"So imagine we got an ECT joining our school, you know, early career teacher, someone who's newly qualified, fresh to the classroom,"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1286.994,"endTime":1288.935,"body":"first time they've ever had their own class."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1289.475,"endTime":1297.78,"body":"What skills do I need to be working on them with to to be able to implement this? Because this this is more complicated. This requires more skill."},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":1298.9599999999998,"endTime":1304.6399999999999,"body":"Those students who are not engaging with that, as you say, very simple system."},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":1304.6399999999999,"endTime":1309.955,"body":"Here's what you come in, you sit down, you get your, you know, do now task, you adjust that, you do that."},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":1310.195,"endTime":1320.0549999999998,"body":"But those students who aren't, you need to be very deliberate in terms of, I'm going to adapt for those students."},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":1320.355,"endTime":1322.7199999999998,"body":"I'm gonna get to know those students better."},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":1322.8799999999999,"endTime":1326.6589999999999,"body":"I'm gonna ask questions of and about those students."},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":1326.8,"endTime":1330.1799999999998,"body":"I'm gonna do my research on those students."},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":1330.8799999999999,"endTime":1338.185,"body":"And we've got we've got one member of staff, one of our sites who actually took me at my word because I said, you know, there's"},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":1338.185,"endTime":1344.5249999999999,"body":"something to be said for a 20 minute investment of slap on your trainers and and go jump on the football pitch."},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":1345.225,"endTime":1349.8049999999998,"body":"Now that's a very again, it's that's a very flippant response."},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":1350.55,"endTime":1353.51,"body":"And this member of staff, actually came in the next day in trainers."},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":1353.51,"endTime":1355.27,"body":"God bless him, and he went for it."},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":1355.27,"endTime":1360.6499999999999,"body":"Because those are the students who I'm not getting through to. What can I do differently?"},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":1360.7099999999998,"endTime":1368.715,"body":"That is a skill to reflect and go, what can I do differently to make it overt, explicit, relational, and deliberate?"},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":1369.0949999999998,"endTime":1379.56,"body":"I want to connect with you so you can learn this because I truly believe that learning this is going to be a benefit for you"},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":1379.779,"endTime":1385.1399999999999,"body":"rather than because it's on a policy and because it's in a national curriculum, we're gonna do that."},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":1385.1399999999999,"endTime":1390.1999999999998,"body":"I think for an increasing number of our students that don't cut bait anymore."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1390.715,"endTime":1398.635,"body":"One thing I often see is now the curriculum is so packed, and I think teachers feel uneasy about exercising their professional judgment."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1398.635,"endTime":1403.135,"body":"There's so much material that the kids walk through the door, bang, we're straight into a lesson."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1403.355,"endTime":1409.6999999999998,"body":"And the kids are desperate to share things about their lives or talk and make that connection with the person at the front"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1409.6999999999998,"endTime":1412.899,"body":"of the room, then that kind of regulates them and gets them ready for learning."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1412.899,"endTime":1422.175,"body":"And and without that investment, and it might just be 3 minutes, right, 3 or 4 minutes talking and connecting, that can unlock the rest of the lesson."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1422.175,"endTime":1427.695,"body":"Actually, you make a lot more progress than if you'd kinda just you just try and push through that and ignore it."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1427.695,"endTime":1432.895,"body":"And I think the same with, the kids' physical state, like with younger children when they come in off the playground, they"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1432.895,"endTime":1435.1299999999999,"body":"might be amped up and excited or something like that."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1435.4499999999998,"endTime":1441.6899999999998,"body":"Just trying to push through into your math lesson and ignoring their physical emotional state, you're not gonna get the learning done."},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":1441.6899999999998,"endTime":1447.4699999999998,"body":"I think you've just summed up this I can go now. You've summed up this podcast."},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":1447.53,"endTime":1452.955,"body":"But I'm I I am a man who likes to make ridiculous pop cultural references."},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":1453.5749999999998,"endTime":1461.5949999999998,"body":"And so to to as a follow-up to what you're saying is, I talk a lot when I'm working with ECTs and and and, well, and all teachers"},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":1461.895,"endTime":1464.08,"body":"and coat in a from in a coaching model."},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":1464.56,"endTime":1471.62,"body":"There was, unfortunately, no longer is, there was a prog rock band from Canada, the Mighty Mighty Rush."},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":1472.0,"endTime":1477.2649999999999,"body":"And their drummer, Neil Peart, is referred to by many as the greatest rock drummer ever."},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":1477.5049999999999,"endTime":1488.3249999999998,"body":"And they did this documentary, and he was working with a he was the greatest rock drummer ever and then decided I need to relearn how to play drums. How about that? How's that for a role model?"},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":1488.385,"endTime":1490.405,"body":"And was working with a jazz drummer."},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":1491.4399999999998,"endTime":1498.26,"body":"And they're they're in the the 2 of them are in this discussion about most people think drumming is the hits."},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":1499.76,"endTime":1509.235,"body":"He said, stop thinking about the hits, stop thinking about the sound, and think about the patterns of movement that gets you to the hits."},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":1510.2549999999999,"endTime":1518.57,"body":"And so the the the visual of adaptive relational teaching is that."},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":1518.6299999999999,"endTime":1536.155,"body":"It's not I'm at the board and and holding forth because, you know, in in any mainstream school, 85, 87, 82, 76 percent will"},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":1536.155,"endTime":1543.695,"body":"take that, but they they probably can't even absorb that for a full 50 minutes. And it's not just here."},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":1544.235,"endTime":1558.019,"body":"It's and as I'm moving through, just the the change in air as I come past you or just, you know, a a a pat on the shoulder"},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":1558.019,"endTime":1568.955,"body":"or a tap on the desk or yes or you know, it doesn't have to be a full a a full sentence or conversation or a fist bump or, hey."},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":1569.274,"endTime":1572.3349999999998,"body":"Our director of education talks about all the time. Hey. Nice trainers."},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":1572.715,"endTime":1577.3,"body":"Now, obviously, you're not supposed to be wearing trainers, but you know what I mean."},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":1577.379,"endTime":1580.04,"body":"I'm not here to be their friend. No."},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":1580.6589999999999,"endTime":1595.014,"body":"But you are there to show them what stable, healthy, positive relationships can look like and how they maintain those relationships as well as you."},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":1595.394,"endTime":1603.9499999999998,"body":"But, you know, when it's gotta be the adult who changes and makes the effort for most children or for most children that we're"},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":1603.9499999999998,"endTime":1607.4099999999999,"body":"talking about in terms of who may struggle with behavior."},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":1607.79,"endTime":1616.615,"body":"Again, it's that overt, I am making an effort. You know? It's also, you've walked in late. It's very it's very different."},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":1617.5549999999998,"endTime":1625.2549999999999,"body":"Why the heck are you late to let me get you up to speed on what we're doing and then having a word later."},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":1625.3149999999998,"endTime":1633.529,"body":"When when we first opened as a free school, and and we still do this, is that, you know, getting in a kid's face and shouting"},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":1633.529,"endTime":1644.3049999999998,"body":"or or anything like that, get out and all that, all those awful bits, we we don't do. I was very clear. I don't do it. You shouldn't have to do it."},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":1644.5449999999998,"endTime":1648.965,"body":"And I I hauled off on this this this one kid. I really did."},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":1649.744,"endTime":1654.004,"body":"And then I went and found him, and I said I was wrong."},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":1654.945,"endTime":1658.3049999999998,"body":"And this is before we had fully established our restorative practice."},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":1658.3049999999998,"endTime":1664.1899999999998,"body":"I went and said that I did it in public. I was wrong. I apologise. That's not acceptable."},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":1664.4099999999999,"endTime":1669.1499999999999,"body":"What you did wasn't acceptable, but how I responded was not the way it should."},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":1669.2099999999998,"endTime":1679.654,"body":"Now just in that, you know, modeling for staff, modeling for students, accepting your mistake, doing something about it, but"},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":1679.654,"endTime":1684.634,"body":"also holding the child to account while also holding yourself accountable. And that's exhausting."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1685.0949999999998,"endTime":1691.03,"body":"And then and then kids learn that adults are human beings, and and you can repair relationships and do the right thing."},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":1691.03,"endTime":1695.1299999999999,"body":"And to that end then, everything is curriculum."},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":1695.9099999999999,"endTime":1700.5469999999998,"body":"So a relational behaviour policy is behaviour curriculum."},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":1700.87,"endTime":1713.5549999999998,"body":"But it's also in our teaching and learning policy, is essentially the ocean in that it's the behaviour piece, and then the"},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":1713.615,"endTime":1715.455,"body":"the learning rolls on top of it."},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":1715.455,"endTime":1723.7099999999998,"body":"Because if we don't have this, that's not gonna happen for our kids, the vast majority of our kids in AP."},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":1724.1699999999998,"endTime":1730.029,"body":"Whereas the opposite is is it's well, actually, it's less true than it used to be."},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":1730.09,"endTime":1733.7549999999999,"body":"But you would say a mainstream for the majority."},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":1733.7549999999999,"endTime":1738.875,"body":"Maybe maybe they're not a huge majority, but for the majority, we'll get this, this, and this."},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":1738.875,"endTime":1744.395,"body":"But for those who struggle, we've got to make sure that this is there."},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":1744.395,"endTime":1748.34,"body":"The relationships are there in order for the learning to happen."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1749.279,"endTime":1752.82,"body":"And let's not forget, right, the kids that are submarining here. There was I saw a figure."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1753.1999999999998,"endTime":1759.9399999999998,"body":"I can't remember it's where it was from, but it said 1 in 5 kids, right, right now are struggling with anxiety."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1760.645,"endTime":1762.885,"body":"That's a table of kids in every classroom."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1762.885,"endTime":1765.0649999999998,"body":"Average classroom of 30, that's a table of 6."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1765.8449999999998,"endTime":1769.365,"body":"You might not notice them, but they're submarining. They're hoping no one noticed them."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1769.365,"endTime":1774.8049999999998,"body":"They're hoping they can get through the day without being picked on all psychological start up scars or having to stand up"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1774.8049999999998,"endTime":1777.98,"body":"and say something in class, but but this works for them too."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1777.98,"endTime":1783.26,"body":"Can I ask, right, I'm I'm just I'm trying to put myself in the in in, you know, in the position of a head teacher who's really"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1783.26,"endTime":1791.5949999999998,"body":"interested in this or a deputy or a behaviour lead? And I'm thinking, okay. How do I write this policy? What's in it? What does it actually look like?"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1791.5949999999998,"endTime":1800.4099999999999,"body":"Because we all know what a what a traditional behavior policy looks like and says, but what what does a relational policy actually say?"},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":1800.49,"endTime":1809.29,"body":"Well, it can be that whole scale of, okay, that teaching and learning is underpinned by relationships and behaviour, and that"},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":1809.29,"endTime":1815.905,"body":"behavior is not just a one trick pony of this is the behaviour policy and that's it."},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":1816.0649999999998,"endTime":1829.649,"body":"But also it's it's a policy where there is room for a consequence might be intervention rather than sanction or might be intervention alongside sanction."},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":1830.029,"endTime":1841.389,"body":"It reinforces that we we can't must be looking at reasonable adjustments if that's what's going to be best for the child."},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":1841.389,"endTime":1851.8449999999998,"body":"It highlights that idea of, yes, the brunt of this policy is about what we're gonna take out if things don't go the way they need to. Right?"},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":1851.905,"endTime":1854.145,"body":"But it front what are we front loading?"},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":1854.145,"endTime":1856.725,"body":"What are we paying in from the start?"},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":1857.279,"endTime":1864.08,"body":"You know, whether that be you you come in in year 7, and we are explicitly teaching behaviour and doing that at pastoral time"},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":1864.08,"endTime":1871.0339999999999,"body":"and and this, that, and the other thing, or whether that's interventions that are waiting that child, a child can access or"},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":1871.254,"endTime":1880.7949999999998,"body":"a greeting when a child arrives at school in your lesson, exits your lesson, all of that sort of stuff makes it makes it relation."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1881.254,"endTime":1886.259,"body":"So we've got a child who's having difficulty in those difficulties are persisting, instead of just hammering away more detentions,"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1886.259,"endTime":1890.9199999999998,"body":"we think about what should be going on if this child could succeed. They would be succeeding."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1891.379,"endTime":1898.5449999999998,"body":"Actually, what's going on alongside whatever we've got in school, what adaptations we're making, the links to the SEND policy"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1898.5449999999998,"endTime":1900.7839999999999,"body":"bringing that together as a current year in whole."},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":1900.7839999999999,"endTime":1905.685,"body":"If everything is curriculum, then everything is behavior and relationships."},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":1906.384,"endTime":1915.359,"body":"And and and behaviour and relationships is the potting soil, is the fuel that is growing the culture, growing the learning,"},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":1915.9789999999998,"endTime":1919.04,"body":"and and facilitating the progress and the attainment."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1919.58,"endTime":1921.4199999999998,"body":"What you're describing here isn't a tick box."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1921.4199999999998,"endTime":1925.5849999999998,"body":"It isn't a 'relational behaviour policies are becoming more popular'."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1925.5849999999998,"endTime":1929.5249999999999,"body":"Let's tick this box and get that for our school. This this set this is foundational."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1929.5849999999998,"endTime":1935.2649999999999,"body":"What you're talking about really is foundational about the way the school approaches education in general."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1935.2649999999999,"endTime":1937.5849999999998,"body":"It's not siloed in behaviour or SEND."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1937.5849999999998,"endTime":1939.4599999999998,"body":"This this this is real big picture stuff."},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":1939.86,"endTime":1948.4399999999998,"body":"Yes. Absolutely. And we you know, because if you look at it in an extreme not extreme, but towards the end of the behaviour"},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":1948.58,"endTime":1953.3,"body":"ladder in a policy, we're just having this conversation with a a school we're working with."},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":1953.3,"endTime":1961.645,"body":"I was just having this conversation yesterday, a mainstream school we're working with, is is suspension and then permanent exclusion."},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":1962.105,"endTime":1969.5649999999998,"body":"Now there is there ain't none of us who have gotten into this this sector and this business to permanently exclude students"},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":1969.625,"endTime":1979.4099999999999,"body":"because we know what happens that gets students permanently excluded and what happens to students who are permanently excluded."},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":1979.55,"endTime":1984.2649999999999,"body":"Not everybody, but we know the caustic effects of that."},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":1984.5049999999999,"endTime":1988.925,"body":"But we also know one of the leading drivers of PX is multiple suspensions."},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":1990.2649999999999,"endTime":1999.759,"body":"But our behaviour policy says that it's it's not the nuclear option, but it's the golden buzzer and that suspension. So what is that doing?"},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":1999.759,"endTime":2007.779,"body":"That's driving the child further away from engaging with their academics. It's not an intervention. It's a sanction."},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":2008.48,"endTime":2016.2849999999999,"body":"It's lowering their attendance, and it's moving them closer to permanent exclusion."},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":2016.5849999999998,"endTime":2028.84,"body":"So it's you know, a relational behaviour policy looks at, okay, what can we do that has the same punitive impact as a as a"},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":2028.84,"endTime":2035.259,"body":"suspension, but also intervenes because we know where this bus is going."},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":2035.879,"endTime":2049.075,"body":"I guess, what a relation relational approach to behaviour as opposed to just a relational behaviour policy says is we must be very clear."},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":2049.6150000000002,"endTime":2052.755,"body":"And, Simon, I don't know, have you ever been involved in a permanent exclusion?"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":2053.2,"endTime":2056.56,"body":"So I used to be the center head of a people referral unit."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":2056.56,"endTime":2063.44,"body":"I'm I think pea a lot of people are under the impression that if you permanently exclude people, suddenly it will force something"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":2063.44,"endTime":2068.935,"body":"magical to happen, and agencies will line up like a hit squad of crack professionals."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":2069.715,"endTime":2072.695,"body":"Actually, when I was working in the system, nothing happened."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":2073.075,"endTime":2075.495,"body":"It's and those kids were just left waiting for spaces."},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":2076.035,"endTime":2084.69,"body":"And for the professionals involved and for the shot callers in that mainstream school who are making that decision, you know,"},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":2084.69,"endTime":2090.21,"body":"for your own self protection, you could see how, okay, have I got all my ducks in the row?"},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":2090.21,"endTime":2093.91,"body":"Have I done everything I need to do in order for this PX to go through?"},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":2094.835,"endTime":2107.07,"body":"But also, a relational approach to behaviour says that even if we've done all that, it's still gonna take a piece of your soul to do this."},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":2107.31,"endTime":2110.13,"body":"Because we know what PX does."},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":2110.67,"endTime":2116.83,"body":"And I I I will fight to the death for mainstream colleagues to have the ability to suspend and PX."},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":2116.83,"endTime":2125.955,"body":"That's not my job to say you can't do that, but it costs the staff as well, obviously, as the student. My gosh."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":2126.095,"endTime":2129.634,"body":"Once once you're through that door for the child, there's no walking back."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":2129.935,"endTime":2131.695,"body":"Their life will never be the same."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":2131.695,"endTime":2136.54,"body":"So if you're gonna make that decision, you have to be 100% certain."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":2137.0,"endTime":2144.62,"body":"You've done everything you can because, you know, there's there's for the child, their life will never be the same."},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":2145.334,"endTime":2150.234,"body":"No. And and, also, that is the sanction."},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":2150.375,"endTime":2157.6749999999997,"body":"So part of our approach to AP in this trust is the permanent exclusion, that tag is the sanction."},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":2158.11,"endTime":2161.41,"body":"The provision you get after that should not be the sanction."},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":2161.87,"endTime":2165.0099999999998,"body":"Oh, well, you just get whatever because you've been bad."},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":2166.19,"endTime":2171.0899999999997,"body":"And, again, when this system is at its worst, that is what happens."},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":2172.094,"endTime":2184.9939999999997,"body":"But, you know, the Centre For Social Justice has been very clear in their research in saying that how do we address that impact, permanent exclusion?"},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":2185.1349999999998,"endTime":2189.56,"body":"How do we prevent that, well, school to prison pipeline and whatnot?"},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":2189.7,"endTime":2200.04,"body":"Well, one of the key weapons in that fight is ambitious, relational, academically innovative alternative provision."},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":2200.795,"endTime":2206.955,"body":"But what I again, I'm try I'm not trying to do myself out of a job, but what I'm when I work with mainstreams and when we"},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":2206.955,"endTime":2214.5299999999997,"body":"work with mainstream schools is that alternative does not necessarily mean this site where I'm sitting now."},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":2215.33,"endTime":2221.81,"body":"It means it might just mean thinking of in an alternative way. This is not working."},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":2221.81,"endTime":2223.89,"body":"What can we do differently for this child?"},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":2223.89,"endTime":2231.9449999999997,"body":"Now mainstream education is unwieldy beast, so you can't really shift in real time into a different gear."},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":2233.9249999999997,"endTime":2245.36,"body":"But a relational policy and a relational approach kinda builds just that little bit of capacity to think, hang on. We've been down this road before."},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":2245.8199999999997,"endTime":2247.7599999999998,"body":"Why are we still doing it this way?"},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":2248.94,"endTime":2251.92,"body":"The vast majority of kids in mainstream not vast majority."},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":2252.06,"endTime":2257.04,"body":"Majority of kids in mainstream, this is how we do it. They will buy into it. That's fine."},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":2257.165,"endTime":2265.085,"body":"But what we have to accept coming, again, coming out of the pandemic and where we are in the world we live in, in the country"},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":2265.085,"endTime":2271.985,"body":"we're working, in the system we are a part of, is there are students for whom that will not work."},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":2272.0699999999997,"endTime":2283.93,"body":"And, actually, it doesn't matter whether it's the kid's responsibility or parent or carer or society or social worker or or school or whatever. We are the professionals."},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":2283.99,"endTime":2289.7149999999997,"body":"We are the educators, and we got into this business, every single one of us, to change lives."},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":2289.935,"endTime":2291.875,"body":"So let's let's see what we can do."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":2292.815,"endTime":2299.395,"body":"We've covered a lot of ground about the power of relational behaviour policies and why they're important."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":2300.415,"endTime":2308.189,"body":"So if you're a teacher or school leader listening to this, Stephen, what's the first small because we've talked about an awful lot here."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":2308.189,"endTime":2316.834,"body":"What's the small first practical step you can take towards moving towards this more relational approach? Because we've talked about that philosophy."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":2317.2149999999997,"endTime":2320.254,"body":"You know, it's it's it's an all encompassing approach to education."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":2320.254,"endTime":2326.754,"body":"But what's one small thing you could do today or tomorrow to start implementing this or moving towards it?"},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":2327.615,"endTime":2343.21,"body":"Who are the students that are vulnerable in your school, in your year group, in your lesson, who are vulnerable in terms of"},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":2343.5099999999998,"endTime":2351.345,"body":"they are not going to make it through to the end of year 11 and and ratcheting that all the way back. They're not gonna make it through."},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":2351.345,"endTime":2354.225,"body":"They're not gonna make it they're consistently not making it through your lesson."},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":2354.225,"endTime":2356.785,"body":"If they're not making it through your lesson, they're not gonna make it through the school day."},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":2356.785,"endTime":2360.145,"body":"If they're not coming through the school day, they're gonna be suspended within the week."},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":2360.145,"endTime":2363.0299999999997,"body":"If they're gonna be continually suspended, they're gonna be PX'd."},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":2363.11,"endTime":2369.37,"body":"And that whole Russian nesting doll going through, who are those kids? Pick 1."},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":2370.87,"endTime":2378.485,"body":"You know, pick 2 in a in a class. Pick 1 in your class. Pick 5 in your year group."},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":2379.265,"endTime":2382.4049999999997,"body":"And what are we, what am I as an individual?"},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":2382.4649999999997,"endTime":2387.125,"body":"What are we as a department or a pastoral team? What are we as a school?"},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":2387.825,"endTime":2396.94,"body":"What do we know about them, And how are we using that information to try and, I talk about evasive maneuvers. Right?"},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":2397.4,"endTime":2402.7799999999997,"body":"How are we gonna try to prevent, to disrupt, to change that trajectory?"},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":2403.935,"endTime":2409.935,"body":"So, you know, here are the needs that we have identified that are not being met."},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":2409.935,"endTime":2412.334,"body":"What are we as a school doing to meet those needs?"},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":2412.334,"endTime":2416.255,"body":"What are we as a pastoral team doing to meet those needs? Can't we do anything different?"},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":2416.255,"endTime":2421.56,"body":"We know what are the things that actually work? Okay. Well, we know that. Is everybody doing that?"},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":2422.58,"endTime":2432.2799999999997,"body":"You know, and and really drilling down, we need to know everything we can about this child in real time and adapt in real time."},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":2433.06,"endTime":2454.97,"body":"You start with 1 and really make it deliberate and explicit your analysis and discussion and and synthesis of ideas. So this is what's gonna happen. Here's how we mitigate it. This is what might happen. Here's how we prevent it. This is what could happen. Here's how we make it so."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":2455.5899999999997,"endTime":2464.995,"body":"And it's amazing when you do that and you think deeply about the problem, how actually 1, 2, 3 small systematic consistent"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":2465.535,"endTime":2472.255,"body":"changes of approach like that can really change the game for a child. I've really enjoyed this conversation."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":2472.255,"endTime":2479.6,"body":"Before we wrap up, I wanna ask you one question that we ask everyone who comes on the show, and I'll be really interested in your answers actually."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":2479.6,"endTime":2487.22,"body":"Who is the key figure or what's the key book that you've read that's had the biggest impact on your approach to working with kids?"},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":2488.48,"endTime":2495.555,"body":"It takes me back to my my very first year 1st year? 2nd year. Well, 1st and second year university."},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":2495.855,"endTime":2500.035,"body":"There's an author named Jonathan Kozel, who wrote a book called Savage Inequalities."},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":2501.2149999999997,"endTime":2505.7149999999997,"body":"And it compared and I'm gonna use eighties nineties film references."},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":2505.775,"endTime":2513.67,"body":"It compared Winnetka and New Trier High School, I believe, which is the area where all the home alone films were filmed."},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":2514.37,"endTime":2520.71,"body":"It's also where Breakfast Club and all those John Hughes films of the eighties was filmed just in the North Suburbs of Chicago."},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":2521.375,"endTime":2529.6949999999997,"body":"They compared New Trier to East Saint Louis High School, and they compared at every level, the funding, the state of repair"},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":2529.6949999999997,"endTime":2534.435,"body":"of the buildings, recruitment of staff, curriculum, etcetera."},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":2535.5,"endTime":2542.399,"body":"And I was playing football at university at that point, and a couple of guys I was playing with went to East Saint Louis."},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":2543.179,"endTime":2548.459,"body":"And I remember asking one of them. I said, dude, is this legit?"},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":2548.459,"endTime":2550.6949999999997,"body":"And he's like, man, that's not even the half of it."},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":2552.775,"endTime":2557.834,"body":"And I I and I remember sitting there thinking, I'm training to be a teacher."},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":2558.775,"endTime":2562.795,"body":"I remember sitting there thinking, how have we allowed this to be?"},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":2563.815,"endTime":2577.3399999999997,"body":"And, actually, I get up every morning and say, how have we allowed this to be, and what can we do to change it? And that's 30 years later."},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":2577.959,"endTime":2584.4449999999997,"body":"And I I don't know if Jonathan Kozel is still alive, but I wish I could find him and say, you have no idea."},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":2584.4449999999997,"endTime":2590.9449999999997,"body":"And I'm sure there's any number of people who would say that, but just that reality check."},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":2592.92,"endTime":2595.64,"body":"But also indirectly, a call to arms."},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":2595.64,"endTime":2605.754,"body":"If you're going into education, how can we allow this to be? Won't stand for it. Good. Let's go. And that's every morning. Let's go."},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":2605.754,"endTime":2611.375,"body":"There is a reason to believe, but there's also a reason to be doing what we're doing."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":2611.995,"endTime":2619.29,"body":"Stephen, it sounds like he gave you even though he never met you, it sounds like he gave you a mission in life, and I'm sure it's a mission."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":2619.29,"endTime":2624.5099999999998,"body":"It's certainly a mission that resonates with me, and I'm sure it's a mission that resonates with many of our listeners."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":2624.89,"endTime":2629.15,"body":"I've really enjoyed the chat today we've covered so much that's so practical, so useful."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":2629.61,"endTime":2631.035,"body":"Thank you for being on the show."},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":2631.595,"endTime":2635.6949999999997,"body":"Thank you so much. I'm I'm if I was really, really loud, it's just because I'm excited."},{"speaker":"Stephen Steinhaus","startTime":2637.275,"endTime":2645.39,"body":"And, you know, there's there's there's always more that we can do, and I really, really appreciate you putting a lens, on this. And thank you again."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":2645.47,"endTime":2651.15,"body":"And that was Steven Steinhouse there talking about how to implement relational behaviour policies in your school."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":2651.15,"endTime":2661.094,"body":"And I think the big takeaway from that is that this is an approach that underpins absolutely everything we do in school. It's not just about behaviour. It's not just about SEMH."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":2661.235,"endTime":2667.094,"body":"Actually, it's about how we connect with the current generation of students in our school, help them understand the purpose"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":2667.475,"endTime":2671.495,"body":"of education, and get them focused on meeting their potential."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":2672.29,"endTime":2678.23,"body":"If you found today's episode useful, don't forget to share it with your colleagues because that helps get this information"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":2678.609,"endTime":2681.75,"body":"out to more people so you can do more good in more schools."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":2681.889,"endTime":2687.315,"body":"I hope you have a a brilliant week, and I can't wait to see you next time on School Behaviour Secrets."}]}