{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":100.47,"endTime":106.78999999999999,"body":"You know that one room in school that's meant to fix behaviour, but somehow the same kids keep ending up there?"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":106.86999999999999,"endTime":111.83,"body":"Isolation, detention, the reflection room, the rainbow room. So many metaphors."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":112.14999999999999,"endTime":118.11,"body":"Well, there's a reason it's probably not working for a significant number of the kids that you teach."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":118.11,"endTime":127.28999999999999,"body":"And in this episode, I'm looking at why this common approach feels effective in the short term, but can actually make challenging"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":127.28999999999999,"endTime":130.76999999999998,"body":"behaviour even harder to change in the long term."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":130.76999999999998,"endTime":137.01,"body":"If you've ever wondered why some pupils just don't respond to detention or being sent to isolation, this one's for you."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":141.89,"endTime":146.85,"body":"Hi there, my name's Simon Currigan and welcome to this week's episode of School Behaviour Secrets."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":146.85,"endTime":152.26,"body":"And in the words of Depeche Mode, when it comes to SEMH in schools, I just can't get enough."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":152.57999999999998,"endTime":157.14,"body":"And yes, I did work as a waitress at a cocktail bar and I never got tipped once."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":157.22,"endTime":161.3,"body":"And it's not the kind of cocktail bar you were imagining. Dark times."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":161.62,"endTime":164.01999999999998,"body":"And I'm still working that one out with my therapist."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":164.26,"endTime":166.7,"body":"And before you message me, now I've said it..."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":166.7,"endTime":171.5,"body":"I do realise I've just mixed up Depeche Mode with soft sell. I'm sorry. I'm sorry."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":171.5,"endTime":177.64999999999998,"body":"Because there's. anyone who lived through the 80s will tell you- you never want to get on the wrong side of a new romantic."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":177.73,"endTime":186.41,"body":"Anyway, today we're unpacking why isolation rooms don't work, why we're seeing the same pupils ending up in them again and"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":186.41,"endTime":195.89,"body":"again, over and over, and what schools can do instead to actually change negative or problematic behaviour rather than just try to control it."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":195.97,"endTime":199.41,"body":"And before we dive into that, can I ask you, please, for a quick favour?"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":199.41,"endTime":207.82,"body":"If you're finding the School Behaviour Secrets podcast helpful, please take a moment to to subscribe so you never miss future episodes."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":207.89999999999998,"endTime":214.5,"body":"And if you could leave us a quick review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify or Amazon Music or wherever you listen, it really helps"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":214.5,"endTime":220.78,"body":"other teachers and the school leaders find the show, because when people leave reviews the algorithm, shares the podcast,"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":220.94,"endTime":230.22,"body":"and that gets this kind of practical support to people who really need it and helps us grow the podcast. Thanks, if you would. I really appreciate it."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":230.84,"endTime":237.4,"body":"All right, let's get into today's episode. Do isolation rooms work well?"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":237.64,"endTime":243.51999999999998,"body":"As a man who's constantly sent out of the room by HR during staff meetings for saying inappropriate things and swearing too"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":243.51999999999998,"endTime":246.12,"body":"much, I feel like I've got some insight."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":246.44,"endTime":255.32,"body":"When I talk about isolation rooms, I mean those spaces in UK schools where pupils are sent to when their behaviour in class crosses a line."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":255.32,"endTime":262.37,"body":"Sometimes they're called reflection rooms or reset rooms, or internal exclusion. The idea is simple."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":262.45,"endTime":269.01,"body":"Remove the pupil from class so they can calm down, think about what happened and avoid disrupting the learning of others."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":269.33,"endTime":278.09000000000003,"body":"In practice. what this often means is sitting alone at a desk, facing a blank wall, sometimes for an hour, sometimes for the"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":278.09000000000003,"endTime":281.73,"body":"whole day, with little or no contact with staff or peers."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":281.89,"endTime":285.61,"body":"Sometimes pupils are sent there during an incident, in the heat of the moment."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":285.61,"endTime":294.26,"body":"Sometimes they might be sent there the next day or for behaviour from the previous day. So different schools have different approaches. So do they work?"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":294.26,"endTime":297.53999999999996,"body":"And I've already trailed this really, so there's no spoiler alert here."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":297.94,"endTime":300.65999999999997,"body":"No, but it's a bit more nuanced than that."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":300.65999999999997,"endTime":305.53999999999996,"body":"It depends on what do you mean by do they work? Do they work for whom?"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":305.78,"endTime":313.41999999999996,"body":"So let's unpack this and start looking at pupils with more complex needs who become dysregulated or find it hard to cope in"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":313.41999999999996,"endTime":316.02,"body":"class, get overwhelmed, that sort of thing."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":316.02,"endTime":324.5,"body":"If isolation rooms worked for those children, to stop those pupils repeating the same negative behaviours in class, well,"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":324.65999999999997,"endTime":334.98,"body":"we wouldn't see those same children in isolation rooms day after day after day. But we do. And the statistics back this up."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":335.38,"endTime":343.15,"body":"Ask anyone who's been unfortunate enough to be asked to staff one and sit in one. It's literally a like Groundhog Day."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":343.23,"endTime":347.03,"body":"Same faces, same stories, every single day."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":347.03,"endTime":356.47,"body":"And not only that, in many schools, we're seeing the same people spending even more time in isolation as the term goes on."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":356.47,"endTime":358.83000000000004,"body":"They're not spending less time, they're spending more time."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":358.83000000000004,"endTime":363.63,"body":"It's like they've got a season ticket and they're trying to get value out of it or something. So what's going on here?"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":363.63,"endTime":371.47,"body":"Because if isolation is the answer, why are the same kids turning up week after week after week? Well, usually one of two things."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":371.54999999999995,"endTime":379.01,"body":"Either the child doesn't yet have the skills to do what's being asked of them and meet expected standards in school, or their"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":379.01,"endTime":383.53,"body":"behaviours being driven by underlying factors that haven't been addressed."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":383.53,"endTime":389.13,"body":"So that might mean you're seeing emotional behaviours, they're anxious or angry or overwhelmed in class."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":389.13,"endTime":395.92999999999995,"body":"Or it might be environmental, too much noise, too much sensory overload or inconsistent expectations or poor sleep."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":395.92999999999995,"endTime":401.61,"body":"It might be cognitive, the task feels impossible and they've lost confidence with their work."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":401.61,"endTime":409.42999999999995,"body":"It could be social, they don't yet have the relational or communication skills to get what they need in appropriate ways."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":409.42999999999995,"endTime":417.87,"body":"When we look through the pain framework, and that stands for the primary areas of internal need, we can start to see those stressors more clearly."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":417.87,"endTime":425.54999999999995,"body":"The pain model looks at how stress affects a child's physical, emotional, cognitive, social and pro social functioning."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":425.54999999999995,"endTime":430.63,"body":"And when those stress systems are put under strain, behaviour always changes."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":430.63,"endTime":436.75,"body":"We looked at the pain framework back in episode 246 and if you've not heard it, I definitely recommend that you go back and"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":436.75,"endTime":444.21000000000004,"body":"have a listen to that because it gives you a way of understanding what's causing a student's behaviour in the first place,"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":444.21000000000004,"endTime":451.65,"body":"so you can address the underlying causes, the drivers, rather than trying to tackle the symptoms, which is the behaviour you see in the classroom itself."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":451.73,"endTime":457.04999999999995,"body":"So when we don't do that, when we don't look at the underlying drivers, what do we often do in response?"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":457.04999999999995,"endTime":462.25,"body":"Well, we double down and we increase the punishment, we increase the time spent in isolation."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":462.25,"endTime":467.22,"body":"So if one day in isolation didn't work, let's up the ante, let's make it two."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":467.22,"endTime":473.46000000000004,"body":"If a lunchtime detention didn't work, let's make it an after school one or one on a Friday afternoon."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":473.46000000000004,"endTime":476.58000000000004,"body":"You know that detention where hope goes to die?"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":476.58000000000004,"endTime":481.86,"body":"We keep raising the stakes in the hope that it's going to have a different outcome in the future."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":481.93999999999994,"endTime":485.34000000000003,"body":"But here's the thing, for these kids, it doesn't work."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":485.34000000000003,"endTime":486.98,"body":"It's a bit like the death penalty."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":486.98,"endTime":494.62,"body":"It's the most severe punishment available, but it's never stopped murder or rape in the countries that use it."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":494.62,"endTime":499.55999999999995,"body":"The severity of the punishment doesn't change the root cause of what's causing those crimes."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":499.55999999999995,"endTime":506.20000000000005,"body":"And in a similar way, suspensions, well, they don't stop permanent exclusions, they just delay them or they're a signal that"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":506.20000000000005,"endTime":509.20000000000005,"body":"a child's on the way to a permanent exclusion."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":509.36,"endTime":515.4,"body":"And I can't think of many cases in all honesty, where a student's been repeatedly suspended and the suspensions have been"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":515.4,"endTime":521.2,"body":"made longer and longer and that suspension made a difference to that child's long term trajectory of leaving the school."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":521.2,"endTime":524.4,"body":"And look, right, I'm a pragmatist, I'm not in the business of ideology."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":524.56,"endTime":532.02,"body":"If you've found a system and you've made this work in your school to support a child and it changes negative behaviour into a positive one and it's humane."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":532.02,"endTime":537.1,"body":"We're not talking about the educational equivalent of waterboarding, then I'm all for it."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":537.1,"endTime":539.9399999999999,"body":"Do what works in your school for your kids."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":539.9399999999999,"endTime":548.02,"body":"But if the same students are ending up in isolation week after week and that consequence clearly isn't working for them, then"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":548.02,"endTime":550.78,"body":"that's when we have to start digging deeper."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":550.78,"endTime":555.98,"body":"So let's tackle the biggest myth of all, that isolation helps pupils reflect."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":556.06,"endTime":563.04,"body":"Now many of these rooms are called something like reflection rooms, but truth be told, there's very little reflection in the"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":563.04,"endTime":565.92,"body":"real world going on in most of them. Think about it."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":565.92,"endTime":571.96,"body":"When a child's been removed from class, they're rarely calm, they're still flooded with stress hormones, their nervous system"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":571.96,"endTime":579.8,"body":"is in fight or flight, their brain in that state, in that moment isn't ready for logic or empathy or problem solving."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":579.8,"endTime":581.72,"body":"And it won't be for hours and hours."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":581.72,"endTime":589.16,"body":"And then we put to them in the isolation room and we hand them a reflection form and we ask them to fill in answers like what"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":589.16,"endTime":593.6899999999999,"body":"did you do wrong? and what could you have done differently next time?"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":593.6899999999999,"endTime":599.89,"body":"Now those aren't necessarily bad questions and I can kind of see the logic in this and there is a quote I love that I'm going"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":599.89,"endTime":605.2900000000001,"body":"to share with you, which is we don't learn from experience, we learn from reflecting on experience."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":605.77,"endTime":607.369,"body":"So there is a logical thread here."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":607.369,"endTime":612.8100000000001,"body":"But often in the real world, because the pupil's body is still screaming danger."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":612.8100000000001,"endTime":620.0500000000001,"body":"If they're sent to isolation in that moment or they're sent the next day because of factors like toxic shame or drivers from"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":620.0500000000001,"endTime":625.91,"body":"the pain framework are fueling their emotions whenever they're in school, that means they're not going to be able to engage"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":626.07,"endTime":628.3100000000001,"body":"in that kind of high level reflection."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":628.3100000000001,"endTime":636.47,"body":"Their brain simply won't access that kind of thinking, asking them to reflect in that state and without access to the higher"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":636.47,"endTime":644.71,"body":"order skills to do so in their brain without feeling, and this is important, safe enough to look at their actions and emotions without triggering shame."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":644.7900000000001,"endTime":651.01,"body":"It's a bit like asking someone in the middle of a panic attack to fill out a customer satisfaction survey."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":651.01,"endTime":656.25,"body":"We're not teaching reflection, we're teaching shame. And shame doesn't lead to insight."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":656.33,"endTime":660.01,"body":"Shame leads to avoidance, shame leads to resistance."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":660.33,"endTime":666.65,"body":"If we want to encourage genuine reflection, it has to happen when the child is calm."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":666.8100000000001,"endTime":674.09,"body":"After they've co regulated with an adult they trust and feel safe enough emotionally to separate their actions, their behaviour"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":674.1700000000001,"endTime":681.96,"body":"from their identity, to separate what I did from what that makes me as a human to get into a state where they can reflect"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":681.96,"endTime":691.32,"body":"honestly and you get them into that state and then enter into, not a worksheet but a restorative conversation, a coaching conversation with an adult."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":691.4,"endTime":698.12,"body":"That's when they can actually learn from what happened during a coaching conversation. So here's the first practical step."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":698.12,"endTime":705.88,"body":"Replace reflection forms with restorative conversations or coaching conversations, short structured check ins that happen"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":706.0400000000001,"endTime":711.22,"body":"when the child's regulated, not during dysregulation or frustration or anger."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":711.22,"endTime":718.02,"body":"And that needs to be with a human being, with an adult, not with a pen and paper and not with ChatGPT."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":718.4200000000001,"endTime":722.98,"body":"Sorry, GPT, you know I love you, but this isn't your arena."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":722.98,"endTime":724.34,"body":"They need a connection with a human."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":724.4200000000001,"endTime":729.0600000000001,"body":"And this is where we come to the second reason isolation rooms often don't work."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":729.22,"endTime":736.25,"body":"They remove the very thing a child needs to calm down and be in this state, which is connection with a human being."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":736.33,"endTime":744.09,"body":"We all regulate through people and nervous systems are built to synchronise with the calm of someone safe."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":744.09,"endTime":749.89,"body":"So think here of like a two year old screaming and shouting because someone's hurt them, that life's unfair or whatever."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":749.89,"endTime":763.37,"body":"And what they need in that moment isn't a reflection sheet, it's an adult to deal with their emotional state, to hug them and calm down their nervous system. That's called co regulation. It's biology, not theory."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":763.53,"endTime":768.49,"body":"Well, many of our students still have that two year old inside them calling the shots."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":768.57,"endTime":775.45,"body":"And that two year old has never learned to soothe themselves, rightly or wrongly, whatever the age of the student."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":775.45,"endTime":777.85,"body":"They could be in primary school, they could be in secondary school."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":777.9300000000001,"endTime":782.53,"body":"They need an adult to reach calm so they can reach clarity."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":782.53,"endTime":789.69,"body":"And just to be clear, before I move on, I'm not saying we should be walking around schools hugging kids like some creepy uncle."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":789.69,"endTime":796.99,"body":"When we as teachers and school leaders co regulate kids in school, obviously we do it differently- professionally."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":796.99,"endTime":806.71,"body":"But when we do the opposite of connection, when we isolate a child, the message becomes when you lose control, you lose connection and belonging."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":806.95,"endTime":813.4300000000001,"body":"For some kids, especially those with trauma or attachment needs, that message is devastating."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":813.51,"endTime":821.39,"body":"Because what they already have deep down is the belief that relationships are conditional, that adults are inconsistent and"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":821.39,"endTime":829.1700000000001,"body":"they can't be trusted, people can't be relied on to stay with them through hard times, that if they mess up, they'll be rejected."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":829.41,"endTime":837.1700000000001,"body":"So isolation doesn't just fail to regulate, it reinforces that child's deepest fear. Rejection from the group."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":837.49,"endTime":846.21,"body":"So to avoid that, they reject you, they reject their friends, they reject other members of staff, they reject the school because of that fear."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":846.21,"endTime":851.49,"body":"Which means you can't punish a child with that kind of background into feeling safe."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":851.73,"endTime":854.44,"body":"So the question is, what is the alternative?"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":854.44,"endTime":859.72,"body":"Well, we need to think about converting isolation rooms into regulation spaces."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":859.72,"endTime":866.12,"body":"Calm, sensory, supervised environments where the focus is reconnection, not exclusion."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":866.12,"endTime":871.12,"body":"That means trained adults who know how to de escalate and co regulate."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":871.12,"endTime":876.12,"body":"It means predictable routines and it means sending a clear message you still belong here."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":876.2,"endTime":881.2,"body":"We don't agree with what you did. There are boundaries. But we're still here for you."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":881.2,"endTime":889.1,"body":"And we're going to help you get back on track together and be before we move on to what that conversation should look like, just another quick reminder."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":889.1,"endTime":894.46,"body":"If you're enjoying this episode of School Behaviour Secrets or you're finding it useful, make sure you hit the subscribe button"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":894.46,"endTime":896.4200000000001,"body":"so you never miss a future episode."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":896.4200000000001,"endTime":901.7,"body":"And while you've got your podcast app open, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, however you listen, if you could leave"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":901.7,"endTime":909.0600000000001,"body":"us a quick review, even just a single sentence and a rating, it really helps spread the word to other educators who need this kind of support."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":909.22,"endTime":915.62,"body":"We don't sell anything through the podcast, so if you'd like to support me, that takes just 60 seconds and it's completely free."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":915.62,"endTime":922.84,"body":"And if you're looking for practical tools to help you support pupils with SEMH needs, check out our free SEND Behaviour Handbook."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":922.84,"endTime":930.08,"body":"Inside you'll find bite sized guides to common conditions like adhd, autism and trauma, plus a behaviour analysis grid that"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":930.08,"endTime":933.6,"body":"links classroom behaviours to possible underlying causes."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":933.6,"endTime":940.64,"body":"And I know a lot of school leaders are downloading it and printing it out to leave in the staff room as a helpful guide for other members of staff."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":940.64,"endTime":945.08,"body":"So that's one useful way of using it in school. It's completely free to download."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":945.08,"endTime":956.0600000000001,"body":"I will leave a link in the show notes which you can open in your podcast or you can visit beaconschoolsupport.co.uk/SEND-handbook"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":956.0600000000001,"endTime":963.34,"body":"that's beaconschoolsupport.co.uk/SEND-handbook alright, let's get back into it."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":963.34,"endTime":975.58,"body":"Here's the core of what's really going on in many schools, isolation rooms aren't being used for repair, they're being used for respite. And I get it. Behaviour incidents are exhausting. I've been there."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":975.58,"endTime":977.5,"body":"I worked in a pupil referral unit."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":977.5,"endTime":986.12,"body":"Sometimes removing a child gives everyone the pupil, the rest of the class, the adults in the room, the teachers, the teaching assistants, a bit of breathing space."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":986.2,"endTime":988.6,"body":"It buys time and it resets the room."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":988.6,"endTime":991.96,"body":"And I'm not saying that's necessarily a bad thing."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":992.28,"endTime":1001.16,"body":"It can be productive, it can be helpful, it can create a useful break where everyone can reset their emotions. But by itself, that's not repair."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1001.16,"endTime":1007.48,"body":"Repair means helping the child build the skills to manage a situation differently next time."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1007.5600000000001,"endTime":1011.4,"body":"It means addressing the underlying needs that cause the behaviour."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1011.4,"endTime":1018.5,"body":"It means looking at how things are set up in the classroom, using something like the pain framework to avoid issues in the future."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1018.9,"endTime":1023.26,"body":"But respite is just about relief for the adult and the child."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1023.26,"endTime":1032.8999999999999,"body":"And the truth is, isolation often addresses adult anxiety and the frustrations of other pupils, but it does nothing to address the child's future behaviour."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1032.8999999999999,"endTime":1041.45,"body":"Now, just to be clear, I'm not saying school should get rid of every consequence or punishment, detentions, isolation, sanctions, they all have their, their place."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1041.45,"endTime":1047.81,"body":"But if a child ends up in isolation once or twice, then never again. Fine, it worked."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1047.81,"endTime":1050.21,"body":"But that's not what this episode is about."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1050.37,"endTime":1058.93,"body":"That shows in those cases that the consequence worked. It helped the pupil course correct. Consequences work well for chosen behaviour."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1059.17,"endTime":1064.29,"body":"Now, this next bit is the thing that might make some listeners bristle, but listen to this because it is important."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1064.53,"endTime":1072.76,"body":"Even as someone who's passionate about SEMH, I acknowledge that part of the reason consequences exist is not just to change"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1072.76,"endTime":1081.08,"body":"the target pupil's future behaviour, but it's also justice and to send messages to the group about what behaviours are acceptable"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1081.08,"endTime":1087.68,"body":"and aren't acceptable, what the boundaries of this social group are. And all social groups have boundaries."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1087.68,"endTime":1092.44,"body":"They need them to function, whether those boundaries are spoken or unspoken."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1092.44,"endTime":1101.34,"body":"So that means when one child harms another or breaks a rule, the victim in that situation needs to see that there's accountability and justice."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1101.34,"endTime":1107.82,"body":"And the class as a whole who are watching that interaction need to see that the boundaries of the social group mean something."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1107.82,"endTime":1118.02,"body":"If child A swears at the teacher and nothing seems to happen, then trust in the system and the adults and the school's routines, well, that erodes."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1118.02,"endTime":1126.2199999999998,"body":"And then some other pupils start to think, so the rules don't really apply then, do they? So, yes, accountability matters, boundaries matter."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1126.2199999999998,"endTime":1130.26,"body":"But isolation for a number of pupils doesn't achieve that."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1130.26,"endTime":1139.8799999999999,"body":"It looks like justice, but if a child is in isolation week after week after week, then we as the adults have to face facts. This approach isn't working for them."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1140.4399999999998,"endTime":1145.3999999999999,"body":"So there's two levels to the question of does isolation work? Work for whom?"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1145.48,"endTime":1151.6399999999999,"body":"There's the big picture way of looking at this, the big picture level, which is, is it working for the bigger social group?"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1151.6399999999999,"endTime":1153.8,"body":"And then there's sort of the zoomed in version."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1153.8,"endTime":1159.8999999999999,"body":"Then there's the kind of individual children who are showing up, up in isolation all the time."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1159.98,"endTime":1162.06,"body":"And for those kids, that's the trigger."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1162.06,"endTime":1169.1,"body":"That's the point where it makes sense to stop just relying on punishment and start investigating what's driving their behaviour,"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1169.1,"endTime":1172.78,"body":"what's missing, what skills need to be taught, just not consequenced."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1172.78,"endTime":1175.1799999999998,"body":"I call this the R cubed framework."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1175.1799999999998,"endTime":1178.3799999999999,"body":"It's all about Replace, Retrain and Rebuild."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1178.4599999999998,"endTime":1187.02,"body":"Replace isolation with connection based regulation spaces and exploring what led to the dysregulation in the first place."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1187.02,"endTime":1191.74,"body":"Break out the pain approach to help work out what those factors are in the classroom again."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1191.74,"endTime":1194.9399999999998,"body":"Go Back to episode 250 for more information about using that."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1194.9399999999998,"endTime":1203.54,"body":"Retrain staff so they know what to do in terms of co--regulation, emotion-coaching, restorative practice, how to make realistic"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1203.54,"endTime":1212.4599999999998,"body":"adaptations to get things back on track and then rebuild systems so that support starts before crisis, not after it."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1212.54,"endTime":1216.56,"body":"True accountability happen through repair, not removal."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1216.56,"endTime":1221.8799999999999,"body":"That's how we teach responsibility and preserve belonging at the same time."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1221.8799999999999,"endTime":1226.9199999999998,"body":"So if you're listening to this as a school leader or a Senco and you're thinking, all right, what do I do next?"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1226.9199999999998,"endTime":1232.9199999999998,"body":"Here are three practical steps you can take straight away. Step one, audit your isolation data."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1233.08,"endTime":1241.56,"body":"Look at the last four weeks, who's been in isolation more than twice, say, who's racking up repeat visits, who's in isolation"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1242.52,"endTime":1247.8,"body":"so often they should probably be contributing to the council tax bill because that's your sign."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1247.8799999999999,"endTime":1251.48,"body":"Those are the pupils that the system isn't working for."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1251.6399999999999,"endTime":1260.48,"body":"Collect that data deliberately over a good period, say four weeks or half a term, and then look for patterns. Time of day, lesson, teacher trigger."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1260.48,"endTime":1267.9599999999998,"body":"Once you've got that, you can start identifying what's driving the pupil's behaviour. Step two, measure effectiveness."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1268.04,"endTime":1274.74,"body":"Ask is this consequence changing behaviour in the long term? Because if it's not, it's time. Time to adapt."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1274.98,"endTime":1277.62,"body":"Build in trigger points for a change of approach."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1277.78,"endTime":1285.4599999999998,"body":"For example, in your policy, say something like, if a pupil ends up in isolation three times in a month, that's the threshold"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1285.4599999999998,"endTime":1288.82,"body":"for an intervention, or looking at their needs more clearly."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1288.82,"endTime":1298.8999999999999,"body":"And at that point you stop repeating the same consequence and start investigating underlying needs using the pain framework that will give you specific answers."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1298.98,"endTime":1301.8999999999999,"body":"And then step three, redefine your space."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1301.8999999999999,"endTime":1309.6399999999999,"body":"If you have an isolation room, repurpose it, make it a regulation or a reconnection space or whatever. Staff it with calm."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1309.6399999999999,"endTime":1314.56,"body":"And the next bit is really important. Emotionally literate adults who understand co-regulation."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1314.8799999999999,"endTime":1318.32,"body":"Some adults can do this naturally, some adults really struggle with it."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1318.32,"endTime":1324.9599999999998,"body":"The right adults need to be in the room and then change the environment so it becomes about reducing sensory load."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1324.9599999999998,"endTime":1334.56,"body":"Have predictable routines in there so the kids know what to expect. Add small signs of belonging. Remember, changing the label isn't enough. You've got to change the experience."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1335.04,"endTime":1339.82,"body":"And then build this into a child's written plan that addresses underlying needs."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1339.82,"endTime":1343.86,"body":"And if a child has, say, some social skills deficit or a regulation deficit."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1343.86,"endTime":1349.6599999999999,"body":"There needs to be some sort of intervention in place to help address these two or the child is going to go around and around"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1349.74,"endTime":1352.2199999999998,"body":"and around and around and that's not what we want."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1352.4599999999998,"endTime":1358.6999999999998,"body":"So, in summary, isolation offers control for the adults, but for many kids, it doesn't lead to change."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1358.78,"endTime":1365.32,"body":"It is immediate, it is visible, it feels decisive, but it doesn't fix the long term problem. Problem."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1365.3999999999999,"endTime":1373.8799999999999,"body":"For a significant minority of kids who find themselves in isolation, real change comes from connection, consistency and a sense of belonging."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1373.8799999999999,"endTime":1383.9599999999998,"body":"Isolation might make the corridors quieter for today, but it doesn't make the child stronger or less likely to turn up to isolation tomorrow. It's a short term fix."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1384.4399999999998,"endTime":1391.0,"body":"Ask yourself the question, do the isolation spaces in our school, do they regulate or do they reject?"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1391.24,"endTime":1393.99,"body":"Are they about rebuilding or are they about respite?"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1394.54,"endTime":1400.1399999999999,"body":"Because every decision we make about behaviour teaches our kids a lesson, even when we don't intend it to."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1400.1399999999999,"endTime":1405.34,"body":"And if this episode has made you rethink your approach, then please share it with a colleague."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1405.34,"endTime":1412.26,"body":"The more schools who move from isolation to connection, the better the outcomes will see for every child. And again, this isn't about dogma."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1412.26,"endTime":1418.74,"body":"If you're implementing isolation in a way that works for your students and it's humane, good for you. Get in touch. I'd love to hear about it."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1418.74,"endTime":1425.05,"body":"And if this episode's made you really rethink something, please share it on social media or with your colleagues. Spread the word."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1425.05,"endTime":1427.81,"body":"And get in touch with me too. I'd love to hear your thoughts."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1427.81,"endTime":1429.81,"body":"And before you go again, one last request."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1429.81,"endTime":1432.05,"body":"If you haven't already, please hit subscribe and leave us."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1432.05,"endTime":1439.77,"body":"A quick review on your podcast app takes just a few seconds, but it really, genuinely helps us reach more educators who need this kind of support."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1439.77,"endTime":1445.37,"body":"And don't forget, grab your free copy of the SEND behaviour handbook at beaconschoolsupport.co.uk/SEND-handbook"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1448.4099999999999,"endTime":1451.37,"body":"nor check out the link in the podcast show Notes."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1451.4499999999998,"endTime":1457.81,"body":"Inside, you'll find practical, easy to use guides on conditions like adhd, autism and trauma, plus a behaviour analysis grid"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1457.81,"endTime":1467.53,"body":"that helps you link classroom behaviour to underlying causes so you can support your pupils more effectively. That's it for today. My name's Simon Currigan."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1467.53,"endTime":1471.61,"body":"Thank you for listening and I'll see you next time on School Behaviour Secrets."}]}