{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"startTime":87.41,"endTime":92.113,"body":"If restorative conversations with your pupils sometimes leave you thinking, \"I did everything"},{"startTime":92.113,"endTime":98.27,"body":"right, I said the right words, so why isn't the behaviour of my pupil changing?\" then you're not on your own."},{"startTime":98.33,"endTime":103.00999999999999,"body":"I've spent the last 18 years working in hundreds of schools, supporting them to be successful"},{"startTime":103.25,"endTime":105.35,"body":"with social, emotional, and mental health needs."},{"startTime":105.47,"endTime":111.11,"body":"And in this episode, I'll show you exactly why restorative conversations break down for pupils"},{"startTime":111.16999999999999,"endTime":116.27,"body":"with SEND, with communication needs, with empathy difficulties, or have issues around shame."},{"startTime":116.33,"endTime":122.14999999999999,"body":"And I'll give you my simple, practical way to adapt them so they actually work for all of your"},{"startTime":122.38999999999999,"endTime":126.77,"body":"pupils without lowering expectations or watering anything down."},{"startTime":166.43,"endTime":168.23,"body":"Hi there, welcome to School Behaviour Secrets."},{"startTime":168.41,"endTime":172.67,"body":"My name is Simon Currigan, and for me, it's all about the merkin."},{"startTime":172.85,"endTime":176.99,"body":"Life would just be better if we all wore merkins. I don't know why."},{"startTime":177.29,"endTime":179.51,"body":"I mean, look at the person next to you now."},{"startTime":179.69,"endTime":181.91,"body":"Imagine them wearing a merkin."},{"startTime":182.51,"endTime":185.63,"body":"Isn't that better in literally every way?"},{"startTime":185.75,"endTime":188.20999999999998,"body":"If I was a dictator, I'd make it mandatory."},{"startTime":188.63,"endTime":195.23,"body":"And this country's gross domestic happiness, when everyone had to wear a merkin, it would go up overnight."},{"startTime":195.29,"endTime":199.31,"body":"I don't know where these thoughts come from, but they've been sitting in my brain all week,"},{"startTime":199.61,"endTime":202.43,"body":"and now they're in yours too. You're welcome."},{"startTime":202.73,"endTime":207.23,"body":"Anyway, welcome to this week's episode of School Behaviour Secrets."},{"startTime":207.29,"endTime":211.55,"body":"Whether you're wearing a merkin or not, it's the podcast where we dig into what's really driving"},{"startTime":211.61,"endTime":218.09,"body":"behaviour in schools and how we can support pupils in ways that actually work based on evidence,"},{"startTime":218.21,"endTime":221.21,"body":"especially those with social, emotional, and mental health needs."},{"startTime":221.26999999999998,"endTime":226.91,"body":"And today we're talking about restorative conversations, but more specifically, what happens"},{"startTime":227.09,"endTime":233.51,"body":"when we try to use restorative conversations with pupil's with SEND needs, and it doesn't quite work."},{"startTime":233.75,"endTime":240.17,"body":"And most often, these are exactly the pupils that we want our restorative conversations to have the most impact with."},{"startTime":240.29,"endTime":245.57,"body":"So I'm going to unpack where the difficulties might be and give you strategies for moving things"},{"startTime":245.93,"endTime":250.79,"body":"forward with the students that you work with, because restorative practice is everywhere now."},{"startTime":250.85,"endTime":253.43,"body":"It's in policies, it's in frameworks, it's in Ofsted language."},{"startTime":253.48999999999998,"endTime":259.25,"body":"We talk about repair, accountability, relationships, reflection, learning from mistakes, and"},{"startTime":259.25,"endTime":261.23,"body":"those are all good things."},{"startTime":261.40999999999997,"endTime":266.15,"body":"But here's where the rubber hits the road, or rather it doesn't hit the road, as the case may be."},{"startTime":266.39,"endTime":272.45,"body":"Restorative conversations assume a very specific set of skills in the child."},{"startTime":272.69,"endTime":279.784,"body":"They assume that the child is able to process complex language, often, when they feel under pressure or they're stressed."},{"startTime":279.784,"endTime":283.54999999999995,"body":"They assume that the child can reflect on their own behaviour and what it meant."},{"startTime":283.73,"endTime":288.59000000000003,"body":"They assume that the child can infer how other people feel or what they were thinking or what"},{"startTime":288.71000000000004,"endTime":290.99,"body":"their intentions were in social situations."},{"startTime":290.99,"endTime":297.71000000000004,"body":"That they can cope with guilt or shame or embarrassment without shutting down, and then express"},{"startTime":298.13,"endTime":304.90999999999997,"body":"all of that in words and adapt their behaviour in the future based on that complex conversation."},{"startTime":305.03,"endTime":310.49,"body":"And for a significant number of pupils with SEND, that's a very high bar."},{"startTime":310.61,"endTime":315.71000000000004,"body":"In fact, for a lot of adults I know who don't have any needs, it's already a high bar anyway."},{"startTime":315.83,"endTime":322.49,"body":"So today I'm going to look at what a standard restorative conversation is and what it actually asks of a child."},{"startTime":322.61,"endTime":327.04999999999995,"body":"And then we're going to think about why that makes it hard for some pupils, what the barriers"},{"startTime":327.28999999999996,"endTime":333.40999999999997,"body":"are to engagement, and then how we can adapt restorative practice so it remains fair, it's inclusive,"},{"startTime":333.47,"endTime":340.01,"body":"and it's effective rather than being beyond the grasp of the very children we most want it to support."},{"startTime":340.07,"endTime":342.11,"body":"So this isn't an attack on restorative practice."},{"startTime":342.23,"endTime":343.73,"body":"I use it, I teach it, I believe in it."},{"startTime":343.97,"endTime":347.03,"body":"This is about making it accessible."},{"startTime":347.09000000000003,"endTime":351.65,"body":"Before we get into that, if you find this podcast useful, remember to hit subscribe or follow"},{"startTime":351.89,"endTime":355.42999999999995,"body":"in your podcast app so you never miss future episodes."},{"startTime":355.54999999999995,"endTime":360.53,"body":"And if you've got just 30 seconds spare, please leave us a quick review on Apple Podcasts or"},{"startTime":360.65,"endTime":365.92999999999995,"body":"Spotify because it genuinely prompts the algorithm to show the show to other school leaders"},{"startTime":365.99,"endTime":368.51,"body":"and teachers who might find the content helpful."},{"startTime":368.57000000000005,"endTime":373.13,"body":"And if this episode feels relevant to someone on your team or contains something that they could"},{"startTime":373.25,"endTime":377.57000000000005,"body":"use in their classroom, please use the share button to send this episode to them."},{"startTime":377.68999999999994,"endTime":382.61,"body":"Or alternatively, if you're a school leader wrestling with this in school, feel free to use"},{"startTime":382.85,"endTime":387.23,"body":"a clip from the podcast in a staff meeting to help improve practice with your team."},{"startTime":387.35,"endTime":393.71000000000004,"body":"You know, feel free to leave the merkin stuff in or out, but use it to drive improvement in your school."},{"startTime":393.89,"endTime":399.16999999999996,"body":"Subscribing, reviewing, and sharing are how this important information spreads."},{"startTime":399.28999999999996,"endTime":401.27,"body":"Okay, let's get into it."},{"startTime":401.39,"endTime":407.45000000000005,"body":"Let me start by sketching out what a standard restorative conversation usually looks like in schools."},{"startTime":407.57000000000005,"endTime":412.01,"body":"And there are different structures to restorative conversations, but most kind of follow a structure"},{"startTime":412.07000000000005,"endTime":413.63,"body":"that looks a bit like this."},{"startTime":413.87,"endTime":415.73,"body":"What happened during the incident?"},{"startTime":415.85,"endTime":418.49,"body":"What were you thinking or feeling at the time?"},{"startTime":418.61,"endTime":423.40999999999997,"body":"Who has been affected and how, and what needs to happen now to put things right?"},{"startTime":423.47,"endTime":428.21000000000004,"body":"And just as a reminder, when we have a restorative conversation, it's not where we're investigating"},{"startTime":428.45000000000005,"endTime":430.07000000000005,"body":"what happened during an incident."},{"startTime":430.13,"endTime":434.57000000000005,"body":"It happens after we know who is involved, how they're involved, and who did what."},{"startTime":434.80999999999995,"endTime":437.99,"body":"Now, on paper, that conversational flow, that's reasonable."},{"startTime":438.11,"endTime":444.23,"body":"Yeah, it's reflective, it's calm, it's relational, it avoids moving things into blame, it pivots"},{"startTime":444.47,"endTime":448.97,"body":"us towards problem solving and getting things right in the future so we're not stuck in the past."},{"startTime":449.09000000000003,"endTime":453.77,"body":"But hidden inside those questions, there are some big demands."},{"startTime":453.89,"endTime":462.11,"body":"We're asking the student to understand abstract language and metaphors like impact and responsibility and repair."},{"startTime":462.40999999999997,"endTime":468.04999999999995,"body":"We're asking them to access their emotions and talk about them while staying regulated enough"},{"startTime":468.23,"endTime":470.63,"body":"to be reflective and logical."},{"startTime":470.68999999999994,"endTime":475.30999999999995,"body":"We're asking them to take another person's perspective and to link their behaviour to someone"},{"startTime":475.49,"endTime":478.54999999999995,"body":"else's internal emotional experience, how they felt."},{"startTime":478.73,"endTime":483.89,"body":"So it's about how what I did changed the way they had emotions in their body."},{"startTime":484.07000000000005,"endTime":486.65,"body":"It affected their emotional state. Not easy to do."},{"startTime":486.77,"endTime":492.89,"body":"And to do all of that on top of all those barriers in real time, and often in the real world,"},{"startTime":492.95000000000005,"endTime":499.97,"body":"whatever restorative practice says, often that conversation happens not long after the stressful incident happened."},{"startTime":500.09000000000003,"endTime":502.18999999999994,"body":"Now, that's hard even for adults."},{"startTime":502.25,"endTime":505.07000000000005,"body":"And this is where restorative conversations can trip up."},{"startTime":505.18999999999994,"endTime":510.23,"body":"Not because the adult doesn't have the right intentions, not because the child is unwilling,"},{"startTime":510.35,"endTime":516.83,"body":"but because the student doesn't have the underlying skills to make sense of the process."},{"startTime":517.01,"endTime":519.77,"body":"They can't engage in the process."},{"startTime":519.95,"endTime":525.17,"body":"So what happens is they nod in the right places, they say what they think the adult wants to"},{"startTime":525.41,"endTime":527.21,"body":"hear when they're not sure what to say."},{"startTime":527.45,"endTime":533.6899999999999,"body":"And as a result, their behaviour doesn't change in the long term, which is the whole point of a restorative conversation."},{"startTime":533.93,"endTime":536.33,"body":"The structure doesn't work for them."},{"startTime":536.39,"endTime":540.17,"body":"It doesn't allow them to reflect on their behaviour."},{"startTime":540.29,"endTime":544.85,"body":"And one of my favourite quotes right now from John Dewey is, \"We don't learn from experience,"},{"startTime":544.97,"endTime":550.43,"body":"we learn from reflecting on experience.\" So we need to make sure that that conversation is structured"},{"startTime":550.61,"endTime":553.25,"body":"so that they can reflect on experience."},{"startTime":553.43,"endTime":559.85,"body":"So I want to walk through three specific needs that often get in the way of successful restorative conversations."},{"startTime":559.85,"endTime":567.41,"body":"And I'm going to do that through one story so it stays real and concrete and we don't get too abstract in our discussion. So meet Ben."},{"startTime":567.65,"endTime":568.73,"body":"Ben is in year five."},{"startTime":568.79,"endTime":572.75,"body":"He's bright, he's funny, he's curious, and he's often dysregulated."},{"startTime":572.81,"endTime":575.09,"body":"He has a profile of ADHD."},{"startTime":575.27,"endTime":581.27,"body":"He's got some language processing difficulties and a background of early adversity in the home."},{"startTime":581.39,"endTime":583.49,"body":"So his needs are complex."},{"startTime":583.61,"endTime":590.63,"body":"He's had several incidents this term that have involved shouting, refusing work, and falling out with his classmates."},{"startTime":590.93,"endTime":596.93,"body":"The school is using restorative practice well and consistently, but his behaviour isn't changing."},{"startTime":597.11,"endTime":601.6700000000001,"body":"After one incident where Ben shouted at another pupil and knocked their book off the table,"},{"startTime":601.7900000000001,"endTime":604.4300000000001,"body":"the teacher takes him out for a restorative conversation."},{"startTime":604.5500000000001,"endTime":608.63,"body":"And they follow the school's policy. They follow the script. They do everything right."},{"startTime":608.69,"endTime":610.37,"body":"They adopt a calm tone."},{"startTime":610.5500000000001,"endTime":613.61,"body":"It's a private space where other children can't see or hear them."},{"startTime":613.6700000000001,"endTime":615.65,"body":"And the teacher uses open questions."},{"startTime":615.65,"endTime":618.65,"body":"So they ask, \"Ben, what happened?\" And Ben shrugs."},{"startTime":619.07,"endTime":625.4300000000001,"body":"So the teacher tells him what happened, or they get Sam in, and Sam tells him what happened from his perspective."},{"startTime":625.5500000000001,"endTime":629.27,"body":"And then the teacher says, \"How were you feeling at the time?\" And what does Ben say?"},{"startTime":629.69,"endTime":635.39,"body":"Ben says, \"I don't know.\" So the teacher offers some suggestions about how Ben might have felt,"},{"startTime":635.63,"endTime":641.39,"body":"but the conversation doesn't really go anywhere, and Ben just picks a random emotion, and everyone"},{"startTime":641.51,"endTime":643.13,"body":"knows in the room that it was a guess."},{"startTime":643.19,"endTime":645.65,"body":"It wasn't based on what happened in the classroom."},{"startTime":645.83,"endTime":650.51,"body":"The teacher then asks, \"How do you think Sam felt when you knocked his book over and shouted"},{"startTime":650.57,"endTime":654.77,"body":"at him?\" And again, we get, \"I don't know.\" So you ask Sam, and Sam tells him."},{"startTime":654.83,"endTime":659.39,"body":"And you can already see those words are like water off a duck's back. They aren't going in."},{"startTime":659.45,"endTime":664.37,"body":"And then the teacher asks, \"What needs to happen to put this situation right?\" And again, we've"},{"startTime":664.4300000000001,"endTime":666.0500000000001,"body":"got silence or a shrug."},{"startTime":666.1700000000001,"endTime":670.73,"body":"Eventually in the conversation, and we've all been there, Ben just mutters, \"Sorry,\" to make"},{"startTime":670.7900000000001,"endTime":674.33,"body":"the conversation stop, to get out of the room."},{"startTime":674.45,"endTime":677.27,"body":"And in that situation, we know that Ben hasn't learned anything."},{"startTime":677.57,"endTime":682.25,"body":"Sam probably feels that justice wasn't done, and everyone's lost precious time."},{"startTime":682.7900000000001,"endTime":689.21,"body":"So what's happened on paper there is a restorative conversation has happened, but in reality, nothing was restored."},{"startTime":689.45,"endTime":695.69,"body":"So the word restorative in restorative conversation comes from the verb to restore, as in restore"},{"startTime":695.8100000000001,"endTime":698.75,"body":"a relationship that was broken or damaged in some sense."},{"startTime":698.9300000000001,"endTime":702.23,"body":"But worse than that, nothing was learned."},{"startTime":702.35,"endTime":704.57,"body":"No insight was gained by Ben."},{"startTime":704.69,"endTime":709.25,"body":"And next week, Ben repeats the same behaviour, and it's predictable."},{"startTime":709.4300000000001,"endTime":715.25,"body":"So let's look at why that restorative conversation might not have worked where it would have worked for other pupils."},{"startTime":715.37,"endTime":718.3100000000001,"body":"Well, first of all, we've got a language barrier."},{"startTime":718.61,"endTime":722.69,"body":"Ben has both receptive and expressive language difficulties."},{"startTime":722.87,"endTime":728.33,"body":"Receptive means his ability to process what other people are saying to him, and expressive is"},{"startTime":728.69,"endTime":733.13,"body":"Ben's ability to put his own thoughts and feelings into words, to express them."},{"startTime":733.3100000000001,"endTime":735.1700000000001,"body":"So let's think about what that means for a minute."},{"startTime":735.23,"endTime":741.59,"body":"It means he struggles to process long verbal sentences or questions from the adult."},{"startTime":741.59,"endTime":748.4300000000001,"body":"It means he struggles to potentially hold multiple ideas in his working memory and juggle them at the same time."},{"startTime":748.49,"endTime":754.19,"body":"It might also mean he struggles to find words, especially when he's stressed or emotional."},{"startTime":754.4300000000001,"endTime":756.41,"body":"Now, that last bit's important,right?"},{"startTime":756.47,"endTime":759.59,"body":"Because now let's add the emotions and the situation on top."},{"startTime":759.65,"endTime":765.95,"body":"When Ben feels stressed or cornered or anxious or ashamed or dysregulated, his brain's ability"},{"startTime":766.01,"endTime":769.37,"body":"to process language drops even further."},{"startTime":769.5500000000001,"endTime":772.85,"body":"That thinking logical part of his brain goes partially offline."},{"startTime":772.91,"endTime":774.11,"body":"It sort of goes quieter."},{"startTime":774.2900000000001,"endTime":779.45,"body":"So when we ask a child like Ben, \"How do you think Sam felt when you did that?\" We're actually"},{"startTime":779.8100000000001,"endTime":785.87,"body":"asking Ben to process what the question means, expressed in complicated terms, to recall the"},{"startTime":785.9300000000001,"endTime":793.4300000000001,"body":"event that happened, to infer Sam's emotional state, compare it to emotions that he's personally"},{"startTime":793.61,"endTime":801.35,"body":"felt in the past so he can recall and label that emotion, and then to express it verbally. That is a lot."},{"startTime":801.47,"endTime":807.11,"body":"Now, when Ben shrugs or says, \"I don't know,\" it looks like avoidance or disrespect or lack"},{"startTime":807.11,"endTime":811.73,"body":"of reflection, but in reality, it could well be cognitive overload."},{"startTime":811.91,"endTime":814.61,"body":"So the first adaptation we need to make for Ben is simple."},{"startTime":814.6700000000001,"endTime":820.97,"body":"We're going to reduce the language load and increase the structure in the conversation."},{"startTime":821.39,"endTime":827.09,"body":"And we're going to do that deliberately through shorter, simpler questions that focus on just"},{"startTime":827.57,"endTime":834.2900000000001,"body":"one idea at a time, that lay out a set of breadcrumbs for Ben to follow, that focus on concrete"},{"startTime":834.41,"endTime":836.69,"body":"language instead of abstract words."},{"startTime":836.8100000000001,"endTime":843.2900000000001,"body":"And we reinforce them with visuals, sentence starters, or choices instead of open questions."},{"startTime":843.41,"endTime":849.77,"body":"So instead of, \"How do you think Sam felt?\" You might start with, \"When you shouted, did Sam's face change?"},{"startTime":849.95,"endTime":856.13,"body":"When you shouted, did Sam look upset or okay?\" And we get a couple of photos of people, one"},{"startTime":856.19,"endTime":862.5500000000001,"body":"who's upset and one who's got a neutral face, and we put the words upset or okay underneath them."},{"startTime":862.6700000000001,"endTime":866.99,"body":"Instead of saying something like, \"What needs to happen to put it right?\" You might say, \"Should"},{"startTime":867.0500000000001,"endTime":873.2900000000001,"body":"we fix the book, say sorry, or both?\" The expectation of repairing the relationship stays the same."},{"startTime":873.47,"endTime":876.2900000000001,"body":"The root there is the thing that changes."},{"startTime":876.53,"endTime":879.95,"body":"Is this a perfect textbook restorative conversation? No."},{"startTime":880.25,"endTime":888.41,"body":"Is it structuring the conversation so Ben can engage with it and get value from it and become reflective about his experiences? Yes, it is."},{"startTime":888.77,"endTime":892.07,"body":"Now let's look at the second barrier, which might be empathy."},{"startTime":892.5500000000001,"endTime":899.27,"body":"Some pupils genuinely struggle to infer or work out or feel what other people are feeling."},{"startTime":899.63,"endTime":905.33,"body":"And that might be because of an autistic diagnosis, developmental delay, or another social cognitive difference."},{"startTime":905.63,"endTime":909.53,"body":"Now, for these pupils, how do you think the other person felt?"},{"startTime":909.65,"endTime":912.0500000000001,"body":"It's not a neutral question."},{"startTime":912.1700000000001,"endTime":916.6700000000001,"body":"It's a demanding, very high-level social inference task."},{"startTime":916.85,"endTime":923.75,"body":"And when we push that question, we can accidentally turn restorative practice into a test that the child keeps failing."},{"startTime":924.2900000000001,"endTime":928.7900000000001,"body":"They don't know what Sam was feeling, so Ben guesses or he stays quiet."},{"startTime":928.85,"endTime":936.23,"body":"So the solution here is to shift the focus just slightly, moving away from empathy to impact."},{"startTime":936.35,"endTime":941.45,"body":"Instead of trying to get Ben to think about what Sam was feeling, we help him understand that"},{"startTime":941.63,"endTime":943.3100000000001,"body":"his actions had an effect."},{"startTime":943.4300000000001,"endTime":949.4300000000001,"body":"So with Ben, the adult might say, \"When you shouted, Sam stopped working and moved away."},{"startTime":949.4300000000001,"endTime":954.59,"body":"His work got knocked on the floor.\" Now, that's concrete. That's observable. That's accessible."},{"startTime":954.65,"endTime":956.33,"body":"It doesn't require any inference."},{"startTime":956.39,"endTime":961.19,"body":"It's like you're describing what happened as if you were watching a film of the event."},{"startTime":961.3100000000001,"endTime":967.97,"body":"Or you might get Ben to walk through in concrete terms, the steps of the incident, as the teacher just did."},{"startTime":968.09,"endTime":972.53,"body":"And then what we do is we link those actions to expectations."},{"startTime":972.59,"endTime":976.61,"body":"In this class, we keep each other safe and able to learn."},{"startTime":976.73,"endTime":982.01,"body":"Now, that's restorative without relying on the emotional component, the emotional empathy, the"},{"startTime":982.01,"endTime":988.61,"body":"cognitive empathy, or the perspective-taking skills that Ben might not have available to him yet."},{"startTime":988.97,"endTime":994.4300000000001,"body":"These kinds of adaptations, they're often related to the elements you find in our PAIN framework"},{"startTime":994.61,"endTime":997.13,"body":"and the drivers of emotional behaviour."},{"startTime":997.25,"endTime":1001.33,"body":"And it's something I'm reflecting on in the book I'm writing at the moment with my business"},{"startTime":1001.57,"endTime":1005.0500000000001,"body":"partner, Emma, about supporting pupils with dysregulation in school."},{"startTime":1005.11,"endTime":1010.09,"body":"But if you're not familiar with the framework, very briefly here, what I'm doing is filtering"},{"startTime":1010.15,"endTime":1015.61,"body":"the restorative conversation through the child's physical, their emotional, their cognitive,"},{"startTime":1015.7900000000001,"endTime":1021.37,"body":"their social, and their prosocial needs and demands to make it work for them, to scaffold it."},{"startTime":1021.4300000000001,"endTime":1024.61,"body":"I'll let you know more about the book when it's released closer to the time."},{"startTime":1024.67,"endTime":1025.81,"body":"It is a way off yet."},{"startTime":1026.17,"endTime":1031.69,"body":"The third barrier, and this is one that often gets missed, is shame and emotional threat."},{"startTime":1031.81,"endTime":1037.03,"body":"Now, I want you to think about pupils with backgrounds of trauma who might experience toxic"},{"startTime":1037.27,"endTime":1043.87,"body":"shame, or they might experience rejection-sensitive dysphoria, and how being asked to reflect"},{"startTime":1043.93,"endTime":1049.51,"body":"on harm can feel like an attack on them as an individual, on their worth as a human being."},{"startTime":1049.57,"endTime":1054.01,"body":"If you've not come across rejection-sensitive dysphoria or RSD, by the way, definitely, after"},{"startTime":1054.19,"endTime":1060.85,"body":"listening to this, go back to episode 258, which is called RSD and ADHD, the hidden triggers"},{"startTime":1060.9099999999999,"endTime":1066.01,"body":"behind sudden classroom meltdowns, and it will lead you through everything you need to know step by step."},{"startTime":1066.55,"endTime":1070.81,"body":"So we've got a child, we've got Ben who's got this background of trauma, who's got ADHD, might"},{"startTime":1070.93,"endTime":1072.61,"body":"potentially be affected by RSD."},{"startTime":1072.85,"endTime":1078.31,"body":"When we ask pupils with these kinds of backgrounds to take responsibility for their actions,"},{"startTime":1078.55,"endTime":1085.51,"body":"what their nervous system might hear is, \"You're bad. You're wrong. You've disappointed me. You're in trouble."},{"startTime":1085.69,"endTime":1091.6299999999999,"body":"This is yet more evidence that you are a bad person.\" Even when the adult doesn't mean that at all."},{"startTime":1091.75,"endTime":1098.59,"body":"But what happens then is the child's system goes into defence mode, and you get this big emotional reaction."},{"startTime":1098.71,"endTime":1103.45,"body":"They shut down, or they lash out, or they walk off, or, and this is equally as dangerous, they"},{"startTime":1103.69,"endTime":1111.25,"body":"join in with the conversation, but at a really superficial distance level, which means they're not reflective."},{"startTime":1111.49,"endTime":1116.11,"body":"Their aim is to actually get through the conversation, sustaining as little emotional damage"},{"startTime":1116.1699999999998,"endTime":1118.99,"body":"as possible, so they kind of put this shield around themselves."},{"startTime":1119.23,"endTime":1123.79,"body":"And then no learning happens because the brain is in survival mode."},{"startTime":1123.9099999999999,"endTime":1127.4499999999998,"body":"So for those pupils, timing matters as much as the content does."},{"startTime":1127.51,"endTime":1132.01,"body":"If the child is dysregulated, or they're ashamed, or they're defensive, restorative conversations"},{"startTime":1132.1899999999998,"endTime":1134.9499999999998,"body":"are not going to have the impact you want them to have."},{"startTime":1135.07,"endTime":1138.85,"body":"So the adaptation here is regulate first, reflect later."},{"startTime":1138.9099999999999,"endTime":1145.57,"body":"So that might mean before the conversation happens, a calming activity, a walk, some time away,"},{"startTime":1145.81,"endTime":1150.61,"body":"a shared activity that builds trust, a check-in about how safe and comfortable the child feels"},{"startTime":1151.1499999999999,"endTime":1153.79,"body":"before we move into the restorative conversation."},{"startTime":1153.9099999999999,"endTime":1156.73,"body":"And then you might say, \"We'll talk about what happened later."},{"startTime":1156.79,"endTime":1162.1299999999999,"body":"Right now, I just want you to feel okay again.\" Now, that doesn't remove accountability."},{"startTime":1162.1899999999998,"endTime":1168.4299999999998,"body":"What we're doing is delaying the restorative conversation until the pupil can engage with it emotionally and neurologically."},{"startTime":1168.55,"endTime":1172.9299999999998,"body":"And then for those pupils, it can be effective to say, \"Now you're calm."},{"startTime":1172.99,"endTime":1177.9099999999999,"body":"Do you want to talk about it and have a say in what happens next with a restorative conversation,"},{"startTime":1178.4499999999998,"endTime":1183.6699999999998,"body":"or shall we just follow the standard school rules about what happens when a student hurts another"},{"startTime":1183.9099999999999,"endTime":1189.85,"body":"student?\" So you're kind of giving them the option to select a restorative conversation or have"},{"startTime":1190.09,"endTime":1198.55,"body":"a kind of traditional boundary enforced through a consequence, which might actually be less threatening for them."},{"startTime":1198.55,"endTime":1200.9499999999998,"body":"And they are still learning cause and effect."},{"startTime":1201.01,"endTime":1204.73,"body":"I hurt another child, and the consequence for me was X."},{"startTime":1204.85,"endTime":1207.49,"body":"So what does this mean overall?"},{"startTime":1207.61,"endTime":1211.75,"body":"It means restorative practice is not just about the questions we ask."},{"startTime":1212.05,"endTime":1216.79,"body":"It's about when we ask them, how we ask them, the scaffolding we use, and whether the child"},{"startTime":1217.03,"endTime":1221.29,"body":"has access to the skills required to answer them in the first place."},{"startTime":1221.77,"endTime":1226.81,"body":"So from an Ofsted perspective, this is exactly what inspectors mean by adaptive practice, reasonable"},{"startTime":1226.9299999999998,"endTime":1230.05,"body":"adjustments, and inclusive behaviour systems."},{"startTime":1230.4099999999999,"endTime":1232.99,"body":"Our high expectations remain the same."},{"startTime":1233.05,"endTime":1234.9099999999999,"body":"We're not changing the expectation."},{"startTime":1235.09,"endTime":1240.9699999999998,"body":"What we're doing is looking at how the child accesses that conversation, scaffolding the conversation"},{"startTime":1241.1499999999999,"endTime":1245.83,"body":"so they can process it, and then engage in positive behaviour change in the future."},{"startTime":1245.9499999999998,"endTime":1249.49,"body":"So let me pull this all together into a simple three-step plan for you."},{"startTime":1249.61,"endTime":1255.49,"body":"If you're seeing your pupils with SEMH or SEND needs in school struggle with restorative conversations,"},{"startTime":1255.9099999999999,"endTime":1261.1899999999998,"body":"step one, before the conversation, even if it's happened some time after the incident, check"},{"startTime":1261.25,"endTime":1264.07,"body":"your child is in the right emotional state for it."},{"startTime":1264.1299999999999,"endTime":1269.7099999999998,"body":"Ask yourself, \"Can this child access this conversation psychologically and emotionally right"},{"startTime":1269.83,"endTime":1273.49,"body":"now?\" Think about language, emotional state, cognitive load."},{"startTime":1273.61,"endTime":1277.2099999999998,"body":"If not, it's time to adapt the conversation or to delay it."},{"startTime":1277.2099999999998,"endTime":1280.4499999999998,"body":"And remember, delaying is different from that conversation never happening."},{"startTime":1280.99,"endTime":1285.25,"body":"Step two, adapt the conversation, not the expectation."},{"startTime":1285.79,"endTime":1291.07,"body":"We are going to manage the conversation so the student can still meet our high expectations."},{"startTime":1291.1299999999999,"endTime":1295.81,"body":"We will still expect the relationship to be repaired, learning to happen about the student's"},{"startTime":1295.87,"endTime":1301.6299999999999,"body":"behaviours and actions and reactions, natural consequences to be put in place to restore the"},{"startTime":1301.6899999999998,"endTime":1307.9299999999998,"body":"relationship, responsibility to be taken for the child's actions, and safer future behaviour."},{"startTime":1308.11,"endTime":1312.6699999999998,"body":"What we're doing is changing the route, making adaptations."},{"startTime":1312.9699999999998,"endTime":1317.9499999999998,"body":"Step three, we measure success by learning, not whether the conversation happened and not whether"},{"startTime":1318.07,"endTime":1322.51,"body":"the language we are using is perfect, you know, perfectly delivered from our policy."},{"startTime":1322.9299999999998,"endTime":1326.8899999999999,"body":"So not did they say theright thing, but did they understand?"},{"startTime":1327.01,"endTime":1329.4699999999998,"body":"Did their behaviour change over time?"},{"startTime":1329.59,"endTime":1334.27,"body":"Did their relationship with the other students stabilise and improve?"},{"startTime":1334.3899999999999,"endTime":1341.1699999999998,"body":"That's restorative practice that is fair, that's inclusive, that results in behaviour change and actually works."},{"startTime":1341.4099999999999,"endTime":1342.9699999999998,"body":"And that's what I have for you today."},{"startTime":1343.09,"endTime":1347.35,"body":"Before I finish, a quick reminder, if this episode has been helpful, please leave a rating or"},{"startTime":1347.4099999999999,"endTime":1353.35,"body":"review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify and share this episode with a colleague or a friend who might benefit from it."},{"startTime":1353.4099999999999,"endTime":1358.99,"body":"It really does help this work, this information, and this podcast reach the people who need it most."},{"startTime":1359.53,"endTime":1364.6899999999998,"body":"So in conclusion, restorative practice is powerful, but only when it's accessible."},{"startTime":1364.81,"endTime":1366.79,"body":"Inclusion doesn't mean lowering expectations."},{"startTime":1366.79,"endTime":1374.6499999999999,"body":"It means building a platform students can actually stand on to reach those expectations. My name's Simon Currigan."},{"startTime":1374.77,"endTime":1376.3899999999999,"body":"Thank you for listening to this week's episode."},{"startTime":1376.51,"endTime":1380.05,"body":"And I can't wait to see you next time on School Behaviour Secrets."}]}