{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":88.07,"endTime":92.08999999999999,"body":"I guess the best"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":88.07,"endTime":92.08999999999999,"body":"advice is Be gentle. Don't imply"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":92.08999999999999,"endTime":96.5,"body":"anything negative or unpleasant."},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":92.08999999999999,"endTime":96.5,"body":"And try to help each child the"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":96.5,"endTime":100.61,"body":"best you can toward their"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":96.5,"endTime":100.61,"body":"academic mastery. Stop worrying"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":100.61,"endTime":105.11,"body":"about their attachment. Let's"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":100.61,"endTime":105.11,"body":"get them reading and getting A's"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":105.11,"endTime":108.83,"body":"and B's so that they go o Oxford"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":105.11,"endTime":108.83,"body":"or Cambridge."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":109.16,"endTime":112.55,"body":"Welcome to the"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":109.16,"endTime":112.55,"body":"school behavior secrets podcast."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":112.61,"endTime":115.75999999999999,"body":"I'm your host, Simon Currigan."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":112.61,"endTime":115.75999999999999,"body":"My co host is Emma Shackleton."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":115.75999999999999,"endTime":119.27,"body":"And we're obsessed with helping"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":115.75999999999999,"endTime":119.27,"body":"teachers, school leaders and"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":119.27,"endTime":122.75,"body":"parents and of course, students."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":119.27,"endTime":122.75,"body":"When classroom behavior gets in"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":122.75,"endTime":125.53999999999999,"body":"the way of success. We're going"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":122.75,"endTime":125.53999999999999,"body":"to share the tried and tested"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":125.53999999999999,"endTime":128.6,"body":"secrets to classroom management"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":125.53999999999999,"endTime":128.6,"body":"behavior, your special needs"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":128.63,"endTime":132.10999999999999,"body":"whole school strategy, and more"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":128.63,"endTime":132.10999999999999,"body":"all with the aim of helping your"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":132.10999999999999,"endTime":135.2,"body":"students reach their true"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":132.10999999999999,"endTime":135.2,"body":"potential. Plus, we'll be"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":135.2,"endTime":138.26,"body":"letting you eavesdrop on our"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":135.2,"endTime":138.26,"body":"conversations with thought"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":138.26,"endTime":141.32,"body":"leaders from around the world."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":138.26,"endTime":141.32,"body":"So you'll get to hear their"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":141.32,"endTime":145.91,"body":"latest evidence based strategies"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":141.32,"endTime":145.91,"body":"before anyone else. This is the"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":145.91,"endTime":150.92,"body":"school behavior secrets podcast."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":145.91,"endTime":150.92,"body":"Welcome to Episode 14 of school"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":150.92,"endTime":155.08999999999997,"body":"behavior secrets, your weekly"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":150.92,"endTime":155.08999999999997,"body":"deep dive into the world of smh."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":155.12,"endTime":158.12,"body":"And behavior in schools. I"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":155.12,"endTime":158.12,"body":"should warn you, we've just had"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":158.12,"endTime":161.39,"body":"that wall painted, so I wouldn't"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":158.12,"endTime":161.39,"body":"lean there. This week, we've got"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":161.39,"endTime":164.72,"body":"something a little controversial"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":161.39,"endTime":164.72,"body":"for you. In fact, if this"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":164.72,"endTime":168.01999999999998,"body":"podcast was an episode of"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":164.72,"endTime":168.01999999999998,"body":"friends, its title would be the"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":168.01999999999998,"endTime":171.41,"body":"one where they kill attachment"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":168.01999999999998,"endTime":171.41,"body":"theory. But first I'd like to"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":171.41,"endTime":173.89999999999998,"body":"welcome my co host, Emma"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":171.41,"endTime":173.89999999999998,"body":"Shackleton to the show. Hi,"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":173.89999999999998,"endTime":174.23,"body":"Emma."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":174.32,"endTime":175.13,"body":"Hi there."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":175.37,"endTime":178.61,"body":"And I've got a"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":175.37,"endTime":178.61,"body":"question for you. Have you ever"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":178.61,"endTime":181.49,"body":"believed in urban myths that"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":178.61,"endTime":181.49,"body":"turned out not to be true?"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":181.64,"endTime":184.85,"body":"Well, the one"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":181.64,"endTime":184.85,"body":"that springs to mind is remember"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":184.85,"endTime":188.14999999999998,"body":"when everybody said that you had"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":184.85,"endTime":188.14999999999998,"body":"to drink eight glasses of water"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":188.14999999999998,"endTime":192.5,"body":"per day. And I remember at one"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":188.14999999999998,"endTime":192.5,"body":"point lining up eight glasses of"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":192.5,"endTime":195.8,"body":"water just to see how much that"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":192.5,"endTime":195.8,"body":"was and then trying to chug my"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":195.8,"endTime":198.62,"body":"way through that water"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":195.8,"endTime":198.62,"body":"throughout the day. And then it"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":198.62,"endTime":200.95999999999998,"body":"turned out that that's not"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":198.62,"endTime":200.95999999999998,"body":"actually true. You don't need to"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":200.95999999999998,"endTime":204.01999999999998,"body":"drink eight glasses of water per"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":200.95999999999998,"endTime":204.01999999999998,"body":"day because actually your food"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":204.01999999999998,"endTime":205.79,"body":"contains lots of water too."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":206.95999999999998,"endTime":209.83999999999997,"body":"Well, there is a"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":206.95999999999998,"endTime":209.83999999999997,"body":"link. Today's episode is all"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":209.83999999999997,"endTime":213.41,"body":"about attachment theory, which"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":209.83999999999997,"endTime":213.41,"body":"is currently very popular here"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":213.41,"endTime":216.95,"body":"in education in the UK. And in"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":213.41,"endTime":216.95,"body":"our interview, we're going to"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":216.95,"endTime":220.97,"body":"talk to Jerome Kagan Jerome is a"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":216.95,"endTime":220.97,"body":"retired professor of psychology"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":220.97,"endTime":225.17,"body":"from Harvard University, who"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":220.97,"endTime":225.17,"body":"spent his career studying human"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":225.17,"endTime":228.68,"body":"development from birth to young"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":225.17,"endTime":228.68,"body":"adulthood. He's written numerous"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":228.68,"endTime":232.04,"body":"books on child development and"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":228.68,"endTime":232.04,"body":"psychology, and is best known"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":232.04,"endTime":235.34,"body":"for discovering to temperamental"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":232.04,"endTime":235.34,"body":"biases in influence that affect"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":235.37,"endTime":238.25,"body":"later development. He's also"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":235.37,"endTime":238.25,"body":"researched whether our early"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":238.25,"endTime":241.85,"body":"experiences affect our future"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":238.25,"endTime":241.85,"body":"personalities, talents and"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":241.85,"endTime":242.6,"body":"character."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":242.63,"endTime":245.84,"body":"So the American"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":242.63,"endTime":245.84,"body":"Psychological Association called"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":245.87,"endTime":250.7,"body":"Jerome the 22nd, most eminent"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":245.87,"endTime":250.7,"body":"psychologist of the 20th"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":250.7,"endTime":255.85999999999999,"body":"century, just above Carl Jung."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":250.7,"endTime":255.85999999999999,"body":"And he's also been described as"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":255.89,"endTime":259.4,"body":"arguably the most revered"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":255.89,"endTime":259.4,"body":"developmental psychologist in"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":259.4,"endTime":263.53999999999996,"body":"the world. So when Jerome talks"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":259.4,"endTime":263.53999999999996,"body":"about child psychology, we"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":263.53999999999996,"endTime":265.25,"body":"should stop and listen."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":265.52,"endTime":267.47,"body":"In this"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":265.52,"endTime":267.47,"body":"interview, he tells us why"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":267.47,"endTime":271.31,"body":"attachment theory is wrong, and"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":267.47,"endTime":271.31,"body":"how the pioneers of attachment"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":271.34000000000003,"endTime":274.73,"body":"Harry Bowlby and Mary Ainsworth,"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":271.34000000000003,"endTime":274.73,"body":"lacked evidence to support their"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":274.73,"endTime":278.48,"body":"theories, and he tells us what"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":274.73,"endTime":278.48,"body":"we should be focusing on"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":278.48,"endTime":279.26,"body":"instead."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":279.40999999999997,"endTime":281.93,"body":"But before we"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":279.40999999999997,"endTime":281.93,"body":"get into that interview, if you"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":281.93,"endTime":285.89,"body":"enjoy the show today, or even if"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":281.93,"endTime":285.89,"body":"it's made you furious, don't"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":285.89,"endTime":290.39,"body":"forget to give us a rating and"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":285.89,"endTime":290.39,"body":"review on Apple podcasts. Every"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":290.39,"endTime":294.16999999999996,"body":"review tells Apple to recommend"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":290.39,"endTime":294.16999999999996,"body":"the podcast to all the listeners"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":294.26,"endTime":297.40999999999997,"body":"so that they can find the show"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":294.26,"endTime":297.40999999999997,"body":"and start getting the help they"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":297.40999999999997,"endTime":301.28,"body":"need to support the children in"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":297.40999999999997,"endTime":301.28,"body":"their classrooms. Now, here's"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":301.28,"endTime":303.71000000000004,"body":"Simon's interview with Jerome"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":301.28,"endTime":303.71000000000004,"body":"Kagan."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":304.01,"endTime":305.84000000000003,"body":"So Jerome,"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":304.01,"endTime":305.84000000000003,"body":"welcome to the podcast. We're"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":305.84000000000003,"endTime":309.26,"body":"really excited to have you here."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":305.84000000000003,"endTime":309.26,"body":"Okay, so today we're going to"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":309.26,"endTime":311.81,"body":"look at attachment theory. And"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":309.26,"endTime":311.81,"body":"attachment theory is getting"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":311.81,"endTime":315.16999999999996,"body":"lots of attention in the last 20"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":311.81,"endTime":315.16999999999996,"body":"years, especially in education,"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":315.53,"endTime":318.79999999999995,"body":"where schools are spending a lot"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":315.53,"endTime":318.79999999999995,"body":"of time and money on attachment"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":318.79999999999995,"endTime":321.47,"body":"interventions to help kids with"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":318.79999999999995,"endTime":321.47,"body":"a social and emotional skills"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":321.47,"endTime":324.23,"body":"and their behavior. But is this"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":321.47,"endTime":324.23,"body":"a case of the Emperor's New"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":324.23,"endTime":327.5,"body":"Clothes? Are we just following"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":324.23,"endTime":327.5,"body":"the crowd without asking the"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":327.5,"endTime":331.4,"body":"question? Is attachment theory"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":327.5,"endTime":331.4,"body":"valid? Or is it built on a"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":331.4,"endTime":334.64,"body":"foundation of sand? Is"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":331.4,"endTime":334.64,"body":"attachment theory worth our"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":334.64,"endTime":337.64,"body":"attention at all? So let's start"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":334.64,"endTime":337.64,"body":"with the basics. Can you give us"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":337.64,"endTime":341.69,"body":"a quick primer? What is"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":337.64,"endTime":341.69,"body":"attachment theory? And what does"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":341.69,"endTime":344.84000000000003,"body":"it say about kids development"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":341.69,"endTime":344.84000000000003,"body":"and their ability to form"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":344.84000000000003,"endTime":345.77,"body":"relationships?"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":345.79999999999995,"endTime":350.17999999999995,"body":"Well, this will be"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":345.79999999999995,"endTime":350.17999999999995,"body":"my longest answer, because it is"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":350.21000000000004,"endTime":354.55999999999995,"body":"the reason why attachment theory"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":350.21000000000004,"endTime":354.55999999999995,"body":"at the moment is our weak basis."},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":354.83000000000004,"endTime":360.11,"body":"First, the idea that the infants"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":354.83000000000004,"endTime":360.11,"body":"bond to the caretaker, the"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":360.11,"endTime":364.22,"body":"mother in the first year or so"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":360.11,"endTime":364.22,"body":"will affect that child's future"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":364.25,"endTime":368.72,"body":"is in fact a new idea that was"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":364.25,"endTime":368.72,"body":"born in the 16th century"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":368.75,"endTime":371.63,"body":"following the Protestant"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":368.75,"endTime":371.63,"body":"Reformation, which gave more"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":371.63,"endTime":376.30999999999995,"body":"power to women. And in the"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":371.63,"endTime":376.30999999999995,"body":"United States and some parts of"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":376.30999999999995,"endTime":381.55999999999995,"body":"England, Puritan and Protestant"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":376.30999999999995,"endTime":381.55999999999995,"body":"ministers told their 17th and"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":381.55999999999995,"endTime":386.57000000000005,"body":"18th century audiences that what"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":381.55999999999995,"endTime":386.57000000000005,"body":"mothers did with their infants"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":386.57000000000005,"endTime":389.36,"body":"from the moment They brought"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":386.57000000000005,"endTime":389.36,"body":"them home from the hospital"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":389.39,"endTime":393.5,"body":"affected their future. Now no"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":389.39,"endTime":393.5,"body":"other culture ever made that"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":393.5,"endTime":398.27,"body":"suggestion just Puritan culture."},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":393.5,"endTime":398.27,"body":"I suspect that one reason is"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":398.29999999999995,"endTime":402.26,"body":"that Puritans as you know,"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":398.29999999999995,"endTime":402.26,"body":"valued work in order to gain"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":402.26,"endTime":407.48,"body":"salvation. And a woman's work"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":402.26,"endTime":407.48,"body":"was obviously raising a child."},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":407.65999999999997,"endTime":412.93999999999994,"body":"So that was her way to ensure"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":407.65999999999997,"endTime":412.93999999999994,"body":"salvation for herself. It is"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":412.93999999999994,"endTime":417.40999999999997,"body":"also relevant. Notice that the"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":412.93999999999994,"endTime":417.40999999999997,"body":"word love in English is used for"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":417.40999999999997,"endTime":421.30999999999995,"body":"the love of God, the love of a"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":417.40999999999997,"endTime":421.30999999999995,"body":"spouse and the love of a child."},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":421.52,"endTime":425.57000000000005,"body":"So that makes it very easy to"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":421.52,"endTime":425.57000000000005,"body":"equate the love of God with the"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":425.57000000000005,"endTime":429.32000000000005,"body":"love of a child. And I should"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":425.57000000000005,"endTime":429.32000000000005,"body":"point out that most languages"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":429.35,"endTime":433.34000000000003,"body":"don't do that. Most languages"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":429.35,"endTime":433.34000000000003,"body":"use a different verb when you're"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":433.34000000000003,"endTime":437.41999999999996,"body":"talking about the love of God"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":433.34000000000003,"endTime":437.41999999999996,"body":"versus the love of your child."},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":437.63,"endTime":443.0,"body":"Now, this idea caught hold in"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":437.63,"endTime":443.0,"body":"America in the 19th century, and"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":443.0,"endTime":447.59000000000003,"body":"also in parts of England. And"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":443.0,"endTime":447.59000000000003,"body":"notice that Freud simply"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":447.59000000000003,"endTime":451.64,"body":"accepted that early premise, he"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":447.59000000000003,"endTime":451.64,"body":"didn't question it because he"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":451.64,"endTime":455.57000000000005,"body":"talked about the oral and anal"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":451.64,"endTime":455.57000000000005,"body":"phase of development. And of"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":455.57000000000005,"endTime":458.9,"body":"course, it's the mother who"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":455.57000000000005,"endTime":458.9,"body":"nurses the child or weans it,"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":458.92999999999995,"endTime":464.15,"body":"too early and who toiletries the"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":458.92999999999995,"endTime":464.15,"body":"child. So Freud made a big deal"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":464.24,"endTime":467.99,"body":"of what the mother does in the"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":464.24,"endTime":467.99,"body":"first year herself. And not"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":467.99,"endTime":472.13,"body":"surprisingly, John Bowlby was"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":467.99,"endTime":472.13,"body":"trained in Freudian theory and"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":472.13,"endTime":476.41999999999996,"body":"believed that, incidentally, I"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":472.13,"endTime":476.41999999999996,"body":"did too, in graduate school in"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":476.41999999999996,"endTime":480.98,"body":"1950. And it took me several"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":476.41999999999996,"endTime":480.98,"body":"years to get over. It is also"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":480.98,"endTime":485.41999999999996,"body":"important that your listeners"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":480.98,"endTime":485.41999999999996,"body":"know that Bowlby was closely"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":485.41999999999996,"endTime":489.32000000000005,"body":"attached to his governess, who"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":485.41999999999996,"endTime":489.32000000000005,"body":"left when he was four years old,"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":489.38,"endTime":493.28,"body":"and he became deeply despondent."},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":489.38,"endTime":493.28,"body":"That was a very important"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":493.28,"endTime":497.51,"body":"influence on his life. And he"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":493.28,"endTime":497.51,"body":"felt he lost his bond to this"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":497.51,"endTime":501.83000000000004,"body":"love object. So here we have"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":497.51,"endTime":501.83000000000004,"body":"John Bowlby in the 50s, wanting"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":501.83000000000004,"endTime":506.63,"body":"to believe these ideas. Now he's"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":501.83000000000004,"endTime":506.63,"body":"working at a London hospital,"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":506.68999999999994,"endTime":510.5,"body":"and his colleague, John"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":506.68999999999994,"endTime":510.5,"body":"Robertson, who's on the wards,"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":510.77,"endTime":514.1,"body":"tells him a peculiar fact he"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":510.77,"endTime":514.1,"body":"says, you know, if you leave a"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":514.1,"endTime":518.45,"body":"one year old on the ward, he or"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":514.1,"endTime":518.45,"body":"she cries, but not a six month"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":518.45,"endTime":523.04,"body":"old, or a two year old, Bowlby"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":518.45,"endTime":523.04,"body":"immediately forgot about the"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":523.04,"endTime":527.84,"body":"exceptions and said, well, that"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":523.04,"endTime":527.84,"body":"is because he or she missed his"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":527.84,"endTime":530.0,"body":"mother. Of course, that's not"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":527.84,"endTime":530.0,"body":"the reason at all. It's a"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":530.0,"endTime":533.24,"body":"discrepant, unfamiliar"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":530.0,"endTime":533.24,"body":"environment that one year olds"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":533.24,"endTime":537.89,"body":"are susceptible to. Then Bowlby"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":533.24,"endTime":537.89,"body":"visits Harry Harlow, at the"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":537.89,"endTime":542.21,"body":"University of Wisconsin and"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":537.89,"endTime":542.21,"body":"Harlow had separated infant"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":542.21,"endTime":547.22,"body":"monkeys from their mothers. And"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":542.21,"endTime":547.22,"body":"some he put on wire objects and"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":547.22,"endTime":552.38,"body":"others he put on a terry cloth"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":547.22,"endTime":552.38,"body":"covered wire objects. The ones"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":552.38,"endTime":556.1899999999999,"body":"on the wire object became very"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":552.38,"endTime":556.1899999999999,"body":"disturbed monkeys, the ones"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":556.1899999999999,"endTime":560.18,"body":"raised on a terry cloth did not"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":556.1899999999999,"endTime":560.18,"body":"and Bowlby interpreted that as"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":560.18,"endTime":564.35,"body":"meaning you see, the infant"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":560.18,"endTime":564.35,"body":"needs skin contact, he was"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":564.35,"endTime":568.43,"body":"interpreting the terry cloth and"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":564.35,"endTime":568.43,"body":"skin. And then he made his major"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":568.43,"endTime":572.06,"body":"hypothesis that the baby's"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":568.43,"endTime":572.06,"body":"interactions with the mother in"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":572.06,"endTime":575.48,"body":"the first year forms and"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":572.06,"endTime":575.48,"body":"attachment bonds. Now, John"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":575.48,"endTime":579.5,"body":"Bowlby was a very intelligent"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":575.48,"endTime":579.5,"body":"man. And he knew he needed proof"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":579.53,"endTime":584.51,"body":"of this very bold idea. And he"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":579.53,"endTime":584.51,"body":"knew he needed a way to get the"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":584.51,"endTime":588.4399999999999,"body":"respect of scientists how to"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":584.51,"endTime":588.4399999999999,"body":"measure the security of the"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":588.4399999999999,"endTime":592.61,"body":"attachment bond, Mary Ainsworth"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":588.4399999999999,"endTime":592.61,"body":"had been a student in London,"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":592.64,"endTime":597.35,"body":"she was now a professor at Johns"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":592.64,"endTime":597.35,"body":"Hopkins University in Baltimore,"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":597.35,"endTime":601.7,"body":"Maryland. And he gives her this"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":597.35,"endTime":601.7,"body":"assignment he says, Mary, go"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":601.7,"endTime":604.4300000000001,"body":"prove them right. That's"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":601.7,"endTime":604.4300000000001,"body":"essentially what he said"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":604.46,"endTime":605.5400000000001,"body":"Find my"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":604.46,"endTime":605.5400000000001,"body":"evidence."},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":607.13,"endTime":610.6700000000001,"body":"So now what is"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":607.13,"endTime":610.6700000000001,"body":"Mary do, she finds a small"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":610.6700000000001,"endTime":614.9,"body":"number of middle class Baltimore"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":610.6700000000001,"endTime":614.9,"body":"infants less than 40, a very"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":614.9,"endTime":619.4,"body":"tiny group. And she sends her"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":614.9,"endTime":619.4,"body":"graduate students to the homes"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":619.46,"endTime":623.27,"body":"of these infants four or five"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":619.46,"endTime":623.27,"body":"times a year in the first year"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":623.48,"endTime":627.6800000000001,"body":"to observe what is this mother"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":623.48,"endTime":627.6800000000001,"body":"doing? She has to invent now a"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":627.6800000000001,"endTime":631.1,"body":"laboratory procedure, because"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":627.6800000000001,"endTime":631.1,"body":"she's going to measure the"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":631.1,"endTime":635.27,"body":"attachment bond of those babies"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":631.1,"endTime":635.27,"body":"that are being observed. And"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":635.27,"endTime":639.5600000000001,"body":"because Bowlby and she were"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":635.27,"endTime":639.5600000000001,"body":"certain that the baby's reaction"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":639.5600000000001,"endTime":644.72,"body":"to separation from the mother"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":639.5600000000001,"endTime":644.72,"body":"was the primary threat. She sets"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":644.72,"endTime":649.07,"body":"up what everyone knows is the"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":644.72,"endTime":649.07,"body":"strange situation. Now, in a"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":649.07,"endTime":652.3100000000001,"body":"strange situation, the mother"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":649.07,"endTime":652.3100000000001,"body":"and the baby are in a room that"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":652.3100000000001,"endTime":656.57,"body":"a stranger enters and she leaves"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":652.3100000000001,"endTime":656.57,"body":"comes back three minutes later,"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":656.78,"endTime":659.9300000000001,"body":"and later on, there's no one in"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":656.78,"endTime":659.9300000000001,"body":"the room. She leaves in the"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":659.9300000000001,"endTime":663.98,"body":"child's all alone. And what does"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":659.9300000000001,"endTime":663.98,"body":"she find? Incidentally, I should"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":663.98,"endTime":667.58,"body":"say that babies who are one year"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":663.98,"endTime":667.58,"body":"old are susceptible to the"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":667.58,"endTime":670.37,"body":"unfamiliarity of being left"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":667.58,"endTime":670.37,"body":"alone or your mother says"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":670.37,"endTime":672.59,"body":"nothing she suddenly gets up at"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":670.37,"endTime":672.59,"body":"leaps"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":672.65,"endTime":674.9,"body":"Is that because"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":672.65,"endTime":674.9,"body":"they becoming more aware of the"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":674.9,"endTime":675.47,"body":"world?"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":675.86,"endTime":679.4300000000001,"body":"Many people have shown"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":675.86,"endTime":679.4300000000001,"body":"many people not just me, that"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":679.4300000000001,"endTime":682.85,"body":"around the world, babies cry"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":679.4300000000001,"endTime":682.85,"body":"where their mother leaves them"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":682.88,"endTime":687.95,"body":"maximally at one year. So what"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":682.88,"endTime":687.95,"body":"she finds is about 60 percent of"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":687.95,"endTime":691.7,"body":"the babies cry. But when the"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":687.95,"endTime":691.7,"body":"mother comes back, they are"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":691.7,"endTime":695.87,"body":"easily soothed 15% can't be"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":691.7,"endTime":695.87,"body":"soothed, they just keep on"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":695.87,"endTime":701.66,"body":"crying. And 15% never cried at"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":695.87,"endTime":701.66,"body":"all. Notice, Ainsworth never"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":701.69,"endTime":705.77,"body":"ever considered the possibility"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":701.69,"endTime":705.77,"body":"that the results were temporary."},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":705.77,"endTime":708.89,"body":"Because I have shown in my"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":705.77,"endTime":708.89,"body":"career, some babies are very"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":708.89,"endTime":712.37,"body":"susceptible to any kind of"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":708.89,"endTime":712.37,"body":"novelty, not just your mother"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":712.37,"endTime":716.0600000000001,"body":"leaving, and a clown comes in"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":712.37,"endTime":716.0600000000001,"body":"and these babies cry, their"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":716.0600000000001,"endTime":718.85,"body":"mothers are kissing them hugging"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":716.0600000000001,"endTime":718.85,"body":"him and they cry for several"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":718.85,"endTime":721.88,"body":"minutes. They can't be quieted,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":718.85,"endTime":721.88,"body":"very important."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":722.21,"endTime":724.49,"body":"So that's not"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":722.21,"endTime":724.49,"body":"about the connection with a mom,"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":724.49,"endTime":727.3100000000001,"body":"that's just their natural"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":724.49,"endTime":727.3100000000001,"body":"temperament, just their natural"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":727.34,"endTime":728.66,"body":"emotional setup."},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":729.14,"endTime":733.5500000000001,"body":"Exactly. Incidentally,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":729.14,"endTime":733.5500000000001,"body":"Ainsworth ignored what she"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":733.5500000000001,"endTime":737.8100000000001,"body":"observed several years earlier,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":733.5500000000001,"endTime":737.8100000000001,"body":"several years earlier, she was"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":737.8100000000001,"endTime":741.9200000000001,"body":"in Uganda. And she noted just"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":737.8100000000001,"endTime":741.9200000000001,"body":"what I said and wrote it in a"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":741.9200000000001,"endTime":745.88,"body":"book called Infancy in Uganda."},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":741.9200000000001,"endTime":745.88,"body":"And I invite your listeners to"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":745.88,"endTime":749.12,"body":"read that book. She says, you"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":745.88,"endTime":749.12,"body":"know, some babies are very"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":749.12,"endTime":752.9300000000001,"body":"susceptible to crying when their"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":749.12,"endTime":752.9300000000001,"body":"mother leaves them independent"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":752.9300000000001,"endTime":758.51,"body":"of how loving the mother is. So"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":752.9300000000001,"endTime":758.51,"body":"she tests these infants. Now,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":758.5400000000001,"endTime":763.16,"body":"here is the critical point. I'm"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":758.5400000000001,"endTime":763.16,"body":"going to say it slowly. No one -"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":763.19,"endTime":767.5400000000001,"body":"no investigator - has shown that"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":763.19,"endTime":767.5400000000001,"body":"the babies who are called"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":767.57,"endTime":771.71,"body":"insecure in the strange"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":767.57,"endTime":771.71,"body":"situation grow up to have more"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":771.74,"endTime":776.48,"body":"psychological problems than the"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":771.74,"endTime":776.48,"body":"secure group. Because your"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":776.48,"endTime":781.13,"body":"social class is the best"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":776.48,"endTime":781.13,"body":"predictor of every psychological"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":781.13,"endTime":785.09,"body":"problem, independent of what"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":781.13,"endTime":785.09,"body":"your behavior in the strange"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":785.09,"endTime":785.99,"body":"situation is."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":786.23,"endTime":788.15,"body":"Why do you think"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":786.23,"endTime":788.15,"body":"that idea spread?"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":788.21,"endTime":791.48,"body":"The idea is far"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":788.21,"endTime":791.48,"body":"less popular today than it was"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":791.48,"endTime":795.86,"body":"in the 50s and 60s, the number"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":791.48,"endTime":795.86,"body":"of papers on attachment has been"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":795.86,"endTime":799.6700000000001,"body":"linearly decreasing over the"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":795.86,"endTime":799.6700000000001,"body":"last 50 years. And now it's"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":799.6700000000001,"endTime":803.9300000000001,"body":"rare. I've read every month, the"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":799.6700000000001,"endTime":803.9300000000001,"body":"major journals, I might read one"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":803.9300000000001,"endTime":807.1700000000001,"body":"or two papers on attachment 50"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":803.9300000000001,"endTime":807.1700000000001,"body":"years ago, I would have read it"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":807.1700000000001,"endTime":810.77,"body":"doesn't. Oh, I should say that"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":807.1700000000001,"endTime":810.77,"body":"some of your listeners may know"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":810.77,"endTime":815.03,"body":"that Mary main invented the"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":810.77,"endTime":815.03,"body":"attachment interview of adults,"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":815.1800000000001,"endTime":818.09,"body":"and then you go to infer your"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":815.1800000000001,"endTime":818.09,"body":"attachment from the interview,"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":818.09,"endTime":821.78,"body":"it turns out that it's a"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":818.09,"endTime":821.78,"body":"function of your verbal skills."},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":821.99,"endTime":825.38,"body":"And of course, people from"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":821.99,"endTime":825.38,"body":"better educated higher social"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":825.38,"endTime":829.4,"body":"class families have better"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":825.38,"endTime":829.4,"body":"coherence in your answers. So"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":829.4,"endTime":833.12,"body":"the adult attachment interview"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":829.4,"endTime":833.12,"body":"is no substitute for a measure"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":833.12,"endTime":838.49,"body":"of attachment. Now, why is this"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":833.12,"endTime":838.49,"body":"belief still popular in England?"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":838.7900000000001,"endTime":842.45,"body":"Incidentally, it's not popular"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":838.7900000000001,"endTime":842.45,"body":"on the continent. And I have"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":842.45,"endTime":847.07,"body":"said to you that it's much less"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":842.45,"endTime":847.07,"body":"popular in the United States. So"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":847.13,"endTime":851.4200000000001,"body":"here is my speculation,"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":847.13,"endTime":851.4200000000001,"body":"teachers, and therapists are the"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":851.4200000000001,"endTime":855.38,"body":"main people who believe in"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":851.4200000000001,"endTime":855.38,"body":"attachment theory. Now we know a"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":855.38,"endTime":859.1,"body":"teacher or a therapist can be"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":855.38,"endTime":859.1,"body":"more effective. If they have a"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":859.1,"endTime":863.57,"body":"theory if they believe I know"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":859.1,"endTime":863.57,"body":"what's going on here. If you"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":863.57,"endTime":867.62,"body":"don't have a theory, you're less"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":863.57,"endTime":867.62,"body":"effective teacher or therapist."},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":867.65,"endTime":872.4200000000001,"body":"So the reason I suggest to you"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":867.65,"endTime":872.4200000000001,"body":"that it lives on is that it"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":872.4200000000001,"endTime":877.13,"body":"makes teachers and therapists in"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":872.4200000000001,"endTime":877.13,"body":"England more effective. And I"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":877.13,"endTime":880.88,"body":"should point out, that's why"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":877.13,"endTime":880.88,"body":"shamans still exist in Africa."},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":881.12,"endTime":884.75,"body":"If teachers and therapists in"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":881.12,"endTime":884.75,"body":"England believe this theory is"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":884.75,"endTime":889.07,"body":"correct, which it isn't, then"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":884.75,"endTime":889.07,"body":"you're more effective. And show"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":889.22,"endTime":893.45,"body":"maybe little harm is done,"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":889.22,"endTime":893.45,"body":"unless they imply that the"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":893.45,"endTime":896.27,"body":"mother was not a loving mother."},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":893.45,"endTime":896.27,"body":"And if they do that, then"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":896.27,"endTime":899.48,"body":"they're doing harm to the"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":896.27,"endTime":899.48,"body":"family. Now, that's my long"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":899.48,"endTime":902.0600000000001,"body":"answer. Now you can ask your"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":899.48,"endTime":902.0600000000001,"body":"other questions."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":906.24,"endTime":908.34,"body":"Just like to"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":906.24,"endTime":908.34,"body":"take a pause for a moment and"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":908.34,"endTime":911.16,"body":"say that if you're finding this"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":908.34,"endTime":911.16,"body":"podcast useful, then you're"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":911.16,"endTime":914.52,"body":"going to love what we've got"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":911.16,"endTime":914.52,"body":"waiting for you in that inner"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":914.52,"endTime":918.27,"body":"circle program. The inner circle"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":914.52,"endTime":918.27,"body":"is your one stop shop for all"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":918.33,"endTime":921.78,"body":"things behavior. It's a"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":918.33,"endTime":921.78,"body":"comprehensive platform, filled"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":921.78,"endTime":925.35,"body":"with videos, resources, and"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":921.78,"endTime":925.35,"body":"behavior inspiration to get you"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":925.62,"endTime":928.95,"body":"unstuck with classroom behavior."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":925.62,"endTime":928.95,"body":"We've got training resources on"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":928.98,"endTime":933.48,"body":"de escalation, supporting kids"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":928.98,"endTime":933.48,"body":"with anxiety support strategies"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":933.48,"endTime":937.77,"body":"for conditions like autism,"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":933.48,"endTime":937.77,"body":"ADHD, and PDA. practical ways of"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":937.77,"endTime":941.5500000000001,"body":"helping pupils deal with strong"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":937.77,"endTime":941.5500000000001,"body":"emotions, assertive behavior"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":941.5500000000001,"endTime":943.71,"body":"management techniques for"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":941.5500000000001,"endTime":943.71,"body":"managing the whole classroom,"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":943.74,"endTime":946.5600000000001,"body":"setting out your classroom"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":943.74,"endTime":946.5600000000001,"body":"environment for success."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":946.62,"endTime":950.4300000000001,"body":"Resetting behavior with tricky"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":946.62,"endTime":950.4300000000001,"body":"classes, and more. Our online"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":950.4300000000001,"endTime":953.82,"body":"videos walk you through"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":950.4300000000001,"endTime":953.82,"body":"practical solutions, step by"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":953.88,"endTime":956.94,"body":"step, just like Netflix, you can"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":953.88,"endTime":956.94,"body":"turn an inner circle"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":956.94,"endTime":960.63,"body":"subscription on or off whenever"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":956.94,"endTime":960.63,"body":"you need to. With no minimum"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":960.63,"endTime":964.32,"body":"contract, follow us. You can now"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":960.63,"endTime":964.32,"body":"get your first seven days of"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":964.32,"endTime":968.28,"body":"inner circle for just one pound."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":964.32,"endTime":968.28,"body":"Get the behavior answers and"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":968.28,"endTime":971.46,"body":"you've been looking forward"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":968.28,"endTime":971.46,"body":"today with inner circle visit to"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":971.49,"endTime":975.33,"body":"beaconschoolsupport.co.uk  and"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":971.49,"endTime":975.33,"body":"click on the inner circle"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":975.33,"endTime":978.36,"body":"picture near the top of the"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":975.33,"endTime":978.36,"body":"homepage for more information."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":981.48,"endTime":986.07,"body":"So if attachment theory is"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":981.48,"endTime":986.07,"body":"wrong, what replaces it or do we"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":986.07,"endTime":987.36,"body":"need anything to replace it?"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":988.009,"endTime":990.919,"body":"Well, what do you"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":988.009,"endTime":990.919,"body":"want to predict a theory? If you"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":990.919,"endTime":995.089,"body":"want to predict psychological"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":990.919,"endTime":995.089,"body":"problems, then you need three"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":995.149,"endTime":998.029,"body":"elements. One, what is your"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":995.149,"endTime":998.029,"body":"temperament? Without"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":998.029,"endTime":1001.3290000000001,"body":"temperament? You can't predict"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":998.029,"endTime":1001.3290000000001,"body":"psychological problems. Second,"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":1001.359,"endTime":1004.6890000000001,"body":"what is the history of childhood"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":1001.359,"endTime":1004.6890000000001,"body":"experiences? Not just in the"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":1004.6890000000001,"endTime":1008.859,"body":"first year, but you know,"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":1004.6890000000001,"endTime":1008.859,"body":"throughout the app friends? Do"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":1008.859,"endTime":1012.279,"body":"you have siblings? Are you a"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":1008.859,"endTime":1012.279,"body":"firstborn or a later born? And"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":1012.279,"endTime":1016.629,"body":"then finally, in what situation?"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":1012.279,"endTime":1016.629,"body":"Are you living? Are you living"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":1016.629,"endTime":1020.469,"body":"in a poor neighborhood in"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":1016.629,"endTime":1020.469,"body":"London? Are you living in rural"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":1020.499,"endTime":1024.279,"body":"Scotland? Where are you living?"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":1020.499,"endTime":1024.279,"body":"Where you're living is really"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":1024.279,"endTime":1028.359,"body":"important, because for example,"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":1024.279,"endTime":1028.359,"body":"anxiety is higher in the city"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":1028.359,"endTime":1031.539,"body":"than in the rural areas, because"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":1028.359,"endTime":1031.539,"body":"people know you. So those three"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":1031.569,"endTime":1035.619,"body":"temperament, the history of"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":1031.569,"endTime":1035.619,"body":"childhood, and what are your"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":1035.619,"endTime":1037.899,"body":"local circumstances at the time?"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1038.1689999999999,"endTime":1040.989,"body":"Can you talk a"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1038.1689999999999,"endTime":1040.989,"body":"little bit about how social"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1040.989,"endTime":1044.349,"body":"class might affect your ability"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1040.989,"endTime":1044.349,"body":"as a child to regulate your"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1044.349,"endTime":1045.789,"body":"emotions and form relationships?"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":1046.509,"endTime":1050.469,"body":"Yes, if you're"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":1046.509,"endTime":1050.469,"body":"poor, first, you have a less"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":1050.469,"endTime":1054.579,"body":"adequate diet. Second, you have"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":1050.469,"endTime":1054.579,"body":"more infections that aren't"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":1054.609,"endTime":1058.329,"body":"cured. And so you're vulnerable"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":1054.609,"endTime":1058.329,"body":"to feeling lousy a lot of the"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":1058.329,"endTime":1062.109,"body":"time. By the time you're six"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":1058.329,"endTime":1062.109,"body":"years old, those who are poor"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":1062.139,"endTime":1066.129,"body":"recognize that they're less"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":1062.139,"endTime":1066.129,"body":"potent, they have poorer"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":1066.129,"endTime":1069.759,"body":"schools, they have dirty your"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":1066.129,"endTime":1069.759,"body":"schools, their homes, owners"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":1069.759,"endTime":1074.199,"body":"nice. They live in neighborhoods"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":1069.759,"endTime":1074.199,"body":"with crime and drugs, so they"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":1074.199,"endTime":1080.439,"body":"feel less worthy. And that"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":1074.199,"endTime":1080.439,"body":"impairs you. 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And so that's"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":1082.749,"endTime":1087.129,"body":"enough to make you anxious and"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":1087.129,"endTime":1090.459,"body":"or depress, you don't have to"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":1087.129,"endTime":1090.459,"body":"have insecure attachment."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1090.789,"endTime":1092.799,"body":"It sounds like"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1090.789,"endTime":1092.799,"body":"all of those factors would"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1092.859,"endTime":1096.849,"body":"increase your stress levels,"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1092.859,"endTime":1096.849,"body":"which might impact on your"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1096.849,"endTime":1099.849,"body":"regulation, your ability to get"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1096.849,"endTime":1099.849,"body":"sleep, your ability just to cope"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1099.849,"endTime":1100.4189999999999,"body":"with life."},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1100.809,"endTime":1104.4089999999999,"body":"Absolutely. 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I mean, there ar"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1111.4289999999999,"endTime":1115.7189999999998,"body":"many papers on this - class"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1111.4289999999999,"endTime":1115.7189999999998,"body":"is powerful, powerf"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1115.809,"endTime":1117.4289999999999,"body":"if you're a"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1115.809,"endTime":1117.4289999999999,"body":"school leader listening to this"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1117.4289999999999,"endTime":1121.119,"body":"interview right now. And in the"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1117.4289999999999,"endTime":1121.119,"body":"UK, at the moment, there are"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1121.1789999999999,"endTime":1124.2389999999998,"body":"attachment interventions to"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1121.1789999999999,"endTime":1124.2389999999998,"body":"support kids that are struggling"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1124.4189999999999,"endTime":1126.4889999999998,"body":"with their behavior and their"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1124.4189999999999,"endTime":1126.4889999999998,"body":"emotions and their social"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1126.4889999999998,"endTime":1127.2089999999998,"body":"interaction."},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":1127.299,"endTime":1129.279,"body":"What's an"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":1127.299,"endTime":1129.279,"body":"attachment intervention?"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1129.339,"endTime":1132.759,"body":"They're trying"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1129.339,"endTime":1132.759,"body":"to teach kids how to interact"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1132.759,"endTime":1135.579,"body":"socially and form reciprocal"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1132.759,"endTime":1135.579,"body":"relationships?"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1135.609,"endTime":1138.009,"body":"Well, that's good."},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1135.609,"endTime":1138.009,"body":"That's good, independent of"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1138.009,"endTime":1141.519,"body":"attachment theory, right? It's"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1138.009,"endTime":1141.519,"body":"nice to be better at forming"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1141.519,"endTime":1143.6789999999999,"body":"reciprocal relationships."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1143.1689999999999,"endTime":1146.1699999999998,"body":"What would you"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1143.1689999999999,"endTime":1146.1699999999998,"body":"advise them to do in terms of"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1146.2389999999998,"endTime":1150.196,"body":"supporting those kids moving"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1146.2389999999998,"endTime":1150.196,"body":"forwards? In your experience?"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1150.264,"endTime":1153.743,"body":"What kind of strategies and"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1150.264,"endTime":1153.743,"body":"approaches are the most"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1153.811,"endTime":1158.11,"body":"effective at helping kids"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1153.811,"endTime":1158.11,"body":"overcome these kinds of difficulties."},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":1158.139,"endTime":1159.879,"body":"What kinds of"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":1158.139,"endTime":1159.879,"body":"difficulties?"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1160.2099999999998,"endTime":1163.4199999999998,"body":"Problems around"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1160.2099999999998,"endTime":1163.4199999999998,"body":"being hyper-vigilant, not"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1163.4199999999998,"endTime":1167.86,"body":"trusting other people not being"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1163.4199999999998,"endTime":1167.86,"body":"able to cope with demands,"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1168.1299999999999,"endTime":1170.74,"body":"emotional dysregulation? Those"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1168.1299999999999,"endTime":1170.74,"body":"kind of issues?"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":1170.829,"endTime":1172.7189999999998,"body":"You mean, these"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":1170.829,"endTime":1172.7189999999998,"body":"are the children, American"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":1172.7489999999998,"endTime":1176.4689999999998,"body":"clinician school emotionally"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":1172.7489999999998,"endTime":1176.4689999999998,"body":"disturbed, conduct disorder,"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":1176.4689999999998,"endTime":1179.559,"body":"depression, it is a"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":1176.4689999999998,"endTime":1179.559,"body":"heterogeneous group, with"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":1179.559,"endTime":1184.059,"body":"heterogeneous causes some"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":1179.559,"endTime":1184.059,"body":"neglecting parents, some"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":1184.059,"endTime":1187.869,"body":"temperament, some not"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":1184.059,"endTime":1187.869,"body":"establishing peer relations, I"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":1187.869,"endTime":1191.4989999999998,"body":"can't make a general statement,"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":1187.869,"endTime":1191.4989999999998,"body":"because the causes of this group"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":1191.4989999999998,"endTime":1195.6989999999998,"body":"which is about 15 20% of"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":1191.4989999999998,"endTime":1195.6989999999998,"body":"population, it's like saying,"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":1195.6989999999998,"endTime":1198.579,"body":"what is the question? Hey, it's"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":1195.6989999999998,"endTime":1198.579,"body":"too diverse,"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1198.639,"endTime":1200.9189999999999,"body":"Would the genera"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1198.639,"endTime":1200.9189999999999,"body":"statement be, actually, we need"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1200.9189999999999,"endTime":1203.559,"body":"to treat these kids as"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1200.9189999999999,"endTime":1203.559,"body":"individuals, right? And look at"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1203.559,"endTime":1205.569,"body":"their individual needs and"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1203.559,"endTime":1205.569,"body":"what's going on in their"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1205.569,"endTime":1208.7489999999998,"body":"individual backgrounds. And"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1205.569,"endTime":1208.7489999999998,"body":"there isn't a magic wand or"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1208.7489999999998,"endTime":1212.019,"body":"magic bullet that will just work"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1208.7489999999998,"endTime":1212.019,"body":"with great segments of society,"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1212.049,"endTime":1215.079,"body":"however tempting that might be."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1212.049,"endTime":1215.079,"body":"We all want a simple solution,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1215.109,"endTime":1218.349,"body":"Correct. Yes. 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Are they"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1229.4189999999999,"endTime":1232.6889999999999,"body":"reading a grade, do they do"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1232.6889999999999,"endTime":1237.129,"body":"mathematics a grade, and find"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1232.6889999999999,"endTime":1237.129,"body":"them a skill, a musical skill"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1237.129,"endTime":1241.4789999999998,"body":"and artistic skill, that will be"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1237.129,"endTime":1241.4789999999998,"body":"very valuable, because in this"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1241.4789999999998,"endTime":1246.4289999999999,"body":"century, not 500 years ago, if"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1241.4789999999998,"endTime":1246.4289999999999,"body":"you can get good grades and get"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1246.4289999999999,"endTime":1250.329,"body":"into a good university, then"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1246.4289999999999,"endTime":1250.329,"body":"that even if you're troubled, I"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1250.329,"endTime":1254.109,"body":"would use the history of TS"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1250.329,"endTime":1254.109,"body":"Eliot, who was a an extremely"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1254.109,"endTime":1258.099,"body":"anxious child and anxious Man,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1254.109,"endTime":1258.099,"body":"what a Nobel Prize in Literature"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1258.1589999999999,"endTime":1263.6789999999999,"body":"because he was well educated. 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What your opportunities"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1266.7089999999998,"endTime":1271.7489999999998,"body":"and chances and oh, no, I mean,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1271.779,"endTime":1276.309,"body":"look at all the great people we"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1271.779,"endTime":1276.309,"body":"respect to were legitimate and"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1276.309,"endTime":1280.569,"body":"worried about their legitimacy."},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1276.309,"endTime":1280.569,"body":"You know, Leonardo da Vinci,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1280.599,"endTime":1287.619,"body":"Jeff Bezos, Napoleon. You Ca"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1280.599,"endTime":1287.619,"body":"Overcome your problems. All th"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1287.619,"endTime":1288.879,"body":"people who d"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1288.9399999999998,"endTime":1291.31,"body":"So if our"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1288.9399999999998,"endTime":1291.31,"body":"listeners are coming across this"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1291.31,"endTime":1294.3999999999999,"body":"idea for the first time that"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1291.31,"endTime":1294.3999999999999,"body":"there's a very small evidence"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1294.3999999999999,"endTime":1298.0,"body":"base for this, what can they do"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1294.3999999999999,"endTime":1298.0,"body":"to find out more about what"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1298.0,"endTime":1300.25,"body":"we've talked about today to get"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1298.0,"endTime":1300.25,"body":"into the research and sort of"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1300.25,"endTime":1302.7099999999998,"body":"dig deeper into this? What would"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1300.25,"endTime":1302.7099999999998,"body":"you advise them to do? What's"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1302.7099999999998,"endTime":1303.58,"body":"their first step?"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":1303.85,"endTime":1307.9299999999998,"body":"Unfortunately, not"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":1303.85,"endTime":1307.9299999999998,"body":"much. Because, I mean, even"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":1307.9299999999998,"endTime":1310.75,"body":"psychiatrists, and clinical"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":1307.9299999999998,"endTime":1310.75,"body":"psychologists have a hard"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":1310.75,"endTime":1314.1699999999998,"body":"problem figuring it out. And"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":1310.75,"endTime":1314.1699999999998,"body":"teachers aren't trained in"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":1314.1999999999998,"endTime":1318.85,"body":"psychiatry, I guess the best"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":1314.1999999999998,"endTime":1318.85,"body":"advice is, be gentle, don't"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":1318.8799999999999,"endTime":1323.56,"body":"imply anything negative or"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":1318.8799999999999,"endTime":1323.56,"body":"unpleasant. And try to help each"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":1323.56,"endTime":1328.12,"body":"child the best you can toward"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":1323.56,"endTime":1328.12,"body":"their academic mastery, stop"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":1328.12,"endTime":1332.77,"body":"worrying about their attachment."},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":1328.12,"endTime":1332.77,"body":"Let's get them reading and"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":1332.77,"endTime":1337.3,"body":"getting A's and B's so that the"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":1332.77,"endTime":1337.3,"body":"Ballade to Oxford or Cambridge."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1337.87,"endTime":1340.33,"body":"And my last"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1337.87,"endTime":1340.33,"body":"question, and we asked this of"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1340.33,"endTime":1343.87,"body":"all our guests, who's the key"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1340.33,"endTime":1343.87,"body":"figure that's influenced you, or"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1343.87,"endTime":1346.57,"body":"the key book that you've read or"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1343.87,"endTime":1346.57,"body":"the mentor that's had the"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1346.57,"endTime":1349.6599999999999,"body":"biggest impact on your approach"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1346.57,"endTime":1349.6599999999999,"body":"to working with children and"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1349.6599999999999,"endTime":1350.35,"body":"psychology?"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1350.53,"endTime":1354.25,"body":"I would say to people,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1350.53,"endTime":1354.25,"body":"my mentor, Frank Beech, who"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1354.28,"endTime":1358.6599999999999,"body":"studied animals, but he was a"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1354.28,"endTime":1358.6599999999999,"body":"big coning. And he said, Forget"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1358.6599999999999,"endTime":1361.36,"body":"about theory, we don't know"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1358.6599999999999,"endTime":1361.36,"body":"enough. What are we going to"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1361.36,"endTime":1364.9299999999998,"body":"discover this afternoon that had"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1361.36,"endTime":1364.9299999999998,"body":"a profound influence on my whole"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1364.9299999999998,"endTime":1369.1299999999999,"body":"career, because that's how I ran"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1364.9299999999998,"endTime":1369.1299999999999,"body":"my laboratory, look for a puzzle"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1369.1299999999999,"endTime":1372.31,"body":"and try to solve it. And the"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1369.1299999999999,"endTime":1372.31,"body":"other was Alfred North"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1372.31,"endTime":1377.6499999999999,"body":"Whitehead, who understood the"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1372.31,"endTime":1377.6499999999999,"body":"dangers of words. Long before"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1377.6499999999999,"endTime":1380.9499999999998,"body":"Virginia Woolf made her"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1377.6499999999999,"endTime":1380.9499999999998,"body":"statement about worlds other"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1380.9499999999998,"endTime":1385.36,"body":"wildest things. He understood"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1380.9499999999998,"endTime":1385.36,"body":"that you go to the phenomena in"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1385.36,"endTime":1389.62,"body":"a way that Russell did. And"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1385.36,"endTime":1389.62,"body":"Whitehead is one of my heroes,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1389.6499999999999,"endTime":1393.2199999999998,"body":"so wonderful. I remember reading"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1389.6499999999999,"endTime":1393.2199999999998,"body":"his biography, a wonderful man,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1393.28,"endTime":1394.4499999999998,"body":"I guess those two"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1395.1399999999999,"endTime":1397.6,"body":"Jerome Kagan"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1395.1399999999999,"endTime":1397.6,"body":"thank you for joining us. I'"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1397.6,"endTime":1401.29,"body":"sure you've given our listener"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1397.6,"endTime":1401.29,"body":"a lot of food for thought. An"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1401.32,"endTime":1402.6699999999998,"body":"it's been a pleasure speaking t"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1401.32,"endTime":1402.6699999999998,"body":"you"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":1402.9689999999998,"endTime":1404.2289999999998,"body":"Thank you very"},{"speaker":"Jerome Kagan","startTime":1402.9689999999998,"endTime":1404.2289999999998,"body":"much."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1405.1899999999998,"endTime":1407.29,"body":"Very, very"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1405.1899999999998,"endTime":1407.29,"body":"interesting."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1407.35,"endTime":1409.6899999999998,"body":"I know and"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1407.35,"endTime":1409.6899999999998,"body":"controversial, certainly in"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1409.6899999999998,"endTime":1411.49,"body":"education over here in the UK,"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1411.6999999999998,"endTime":1413.4699999999998,"body":"definite food"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1411.6999999999998,"endTime":1413.4699999999998,"body":"for thought."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1413.589,"endTime":1415.9289999999999,"body":"If you work with"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1413.589,"endTime":1415.9289999999999,"body":"kids with challenging behavior,"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1415.9289999999999,"endTime":1418.9289999999999,"body":"and you're not sure why they're"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1415.9289999999999,"endTime":1418.9289999999999,"body":"acting the way they are, we've"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1418.9289999999999,"endTime":1422.589,"body":"got a download that can help is"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1418.9289999999999,"endTime":1422.589,"body":"called the SEN handbook. And it"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1422.589,"endTime":1425.019,"body":"will help you link behaviors"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1422.589,"endTime":1425.019,"body":"you've seen in the classroom"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1425.019,"endTime":1428.4089999999999,"body":"with possible causes like"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1425.019,"endTime":1428.4089999999999,"body":"autism. The idea here isn't for"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1428.4089999999999,"endTime":1431.2289999999998,"body":"teachers to make a diagnosis,"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1428.4089999999999,"endTime":1431.2289999999998,"body":"we're not qualified. But if we"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1431.2289999999998,"endTime":1435.2189999999998,"body":"link behaviors to possible"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1431.2289999999998,"endTime":1435.2189999999998,"body":"causes quickly, it means we can"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1435.2189999999998,"endTime":1438.369,"body":"get the right help and get early"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1435.2189999999998,"endTime":1438.369,"body":"intervention strategies in"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1438.369,"endTime":1441.789,"body":"place. It's a free download, go"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1438.369,"endTime":1441.789,"body":"to the website beaconschool"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1441.789,"endTime":1446.289,"body":"upport co.uk, click on the free"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1441.789,"endTime":1446.289,"body":"esources tab near the top. I'll"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1446.319,"endTime":1449.049,"body":"lso put a link in the episode"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1446.319,"endTime":1449.049,"body":"escription."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1449.1399999999999,"endTime":1451.06,"body":"And in the next"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1449.1399999999999,"endTime":1451.06,"body":"episode, we're going to be"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1451.06,"endTime":1455.11,"body":"looking at prioritizing"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1451.06,"endTime":1455.11,"body":"interventions. So when you start"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1455.11,"endTime":1458.4399999999998,"body":"to support a student who has a"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1455.11,"endTime":1458.4399999999998,"body":"lot of behavior difficulties,"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1458.53,"endTime":1462.6999999999998,"body":"what are the behaviors that you"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1458.53,"endTime":1462.6999999999998,"body":"focus on first, to get the best"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1462.6999999999998,"endTime":1465.8799999999999,"body":"results for the student"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1462.6999999999998,"endTime":1465.8799999999999,"body":"themselves and the rest of the"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1465.8799999999999,"endTime":1466.51,"body":"class."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1466.6299999999999,"endTime":1468.85,"body":"So to make sure"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1466.6299999999999,"endTime":1468.85,"body":"you catch that episode, open"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1468.85,"endTime":1471.85,"body":"your podcast app now, hit the"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1468.85,"endTime":1471.85,"body":"subscribe button and your"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1471.85,"endTime":1475.57,"body":"podcast app will automatically"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1471.85,"endTime":1475.57,"body":"download each and every episode"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1475.75,"endTime":1478.7199999999998,"body":"of school behavior secret so you"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1475.75,"endTime":1478.7199999999998,"body":"never miss a thing. And then"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1478.7199999999998,"endTime":1480.73,"body":"maybe say thank you to the"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1478.7199999999998,"endTime":1480.73,"body":"button by giving it some"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1480.73,"endTime":1483.55,"body":"flowers. It's small, so even so"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1480.73,"endTime":1483.55,"body":"e daisies are going to lo"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1483.55,"endTime":1484.9299999999998,"body":"k impressive from its perspectiv"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1485.08,"endTime":1488.4099999999999,"body":"And finally, if"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1485.08,"endTime":1488.4099999999999,"body":"you find today's episode useful,"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1488.4399999999998,"endTime":1492.2199999999998,"body":"please leave us an honest rating"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1488.4399999999998,"endTime":1492.2199999999998,"body":"and review on Apple podcasts."},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1492.37,"endTime":1495.79,"body":"This really does make a huge"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1492.37,"endTime":1495.79,"body":"difference because when you rate"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1495.79,"endTime":1498.9099999999999,"body":"and reviewers, it makes it more"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1495.79,"endTime":1498.9099999999999,"body":"likely that school behavior"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1498.9099999999999,"endTime":1502.51,"body":"secrets will be recommended to"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1498.9099999999999,"endTime":1502.51,"body":"other listeners, and then other"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1502.51,"endTime":1505.6899999999998,"body":"teachers and school leaders can"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1502.51,"endTime":1505.6899999999998,"body":"find the show and start getting"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1505.6899999999998,"endTime":1508.06,"body":"the help they need to support"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1505.6899999999998,"endTime":1508.06,"body":"the children in their"},{"speaker":"Emma Shackleton","startTime":1508.06,"endTime":1508.8999999999999,"body":"classrooms."},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1509.02,"endTime":1510.73,"body":"That's all for"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1509.02,"endTime":1510.73,"body":"this week's episode of school"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1510.73,"endTime":1514.03,"body":"behavior secrets. Have a great"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1510.73,"endTime":1514.03,"body":"week and we look forward to"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1514.03,"endTime":1515.77,"body":"seeing you next time. Bye for"},{"speaker":"Simon Currigan","startTime":1514.03,"endTime":1515.77,"body":"now."},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1516.1899999999998,"endTime":1516.76,"body":"Bye now."}]}