Side of Design
A podcast from BWBR, for those with a craving to take their organizations and spaces to new heights, with a side of design. We explore topics and issues affecting how we heal, learn, work, research, play and pray with those whose passion and expertise centers on the spaces that enable us to do all of that.
Side of Design
One Material, Big Impact: How FSC Wood Supports Sustainable Design
As climate change reshapes the way we live—prompting thoughtful changes both big and small to support sustainability—the design profession must evolve as a key player in reducing waste, deforestation, and other drivers of global warming. One critical lever designers can pull is material selection. In this episode, we’re focusing on FSC-certified wood—a single material choice that can make a significant difference.
Joining us from BWBR are President and CEO Terri Ulrick, Senior Specifications Writer Renee Wells, and Sustainability Specialist Rasa Zeltina to discuss what FSC wood is, why it matters, and how designers can meaningfully incorporate it into their projects to support sustainability and social responsibility.
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This is Side of Design from BWBR, a podcast discussing all aspects of design with knowledge leaders from every part of the industry. Hello and welcome to Side of Design from BWBR. I'm your host, Matt Gersner. As the profession works to adapt and counteract the effects of climate change, material choice is one critical sustainability lever that designers can pull. Today, we're specifically focusing on FSC wood, how it's incorporated into projects, what to consider during specification, and how it supports our design and sustainability goals. Joining this conversation today from BWBR, are senior specifications writer Renee Wells, and sustainability specialist Russell Tina. And we'll also have a brief word from CEO Terry Ulrick as well. Thank you all for joining me today.
Renee Wells:Thank you, Matt.
Matt Gerstner:So we're gonna ask the question: what does FSC certification mean? And then what are the benefits of using this type of product? Because I'm sure there's a lot of people out there that don't exactly understand what FSC certification is.
Renee Wells:Let's start with the FSC part of it. The Forest Stewardship Council. It's a nonprofit organization started in the mid-90s that sets principles or standards for sustainable forestry practices.
Matt Gerstner:Okay.
Renee Wells:The certification part of it, there are three certifications that are available: the hundred percent certified materials, the recycled materials, and a mix.
Matt Gerstner:Okay.
Renee Wells:The mixture is a combination of FSC certified materials, recycled materials, and FSC control materials. So I think of it as a good, better, best kind of level.
Matt Gerstner:Okay, okay.
Rasa Zeltina:Yeah, and I was I was going to say one of the really cool things about the Forest Stewardship Council is that as Renee mentioned, they are promoting responsible forest management. And it covers the kind of environmental aspects such as no deforestation and protecting ancient forests and preserving biodiversity, but there are also really important social benefits as well, like protecting workers' rights and wages and watching out for local communities and indigenous peoples and so forth. So it's it's really great that it is uh like a holistic forest strategy.
Matt Gerstner:Oh, absolutely. I can see that. And you said it's it's uh a nonprofit organization as well.
Renee Wells:It is.
Matt Gerstner:Incredible. So what what exactly are the benefits then of using this type of product?
Terri Ulrick:Wood is something we specify all the time. And choosing FSC certified wood is one way we can be sure that the forests it comes from are being managed responsibly. It means the materials we're using are helping protect ecosystems, supporting fair labor practices, and reducing the overall carbon footprint of our work.
Renee Wells:When we think about healthy forests, we think about reduced carbon emissions, uh, increased oxygen production, enhanced water quality in the ecosystems for plants and animals.
Rasa Zeltina:Renee, like how you mentioned kind of conscious consumerism. And when we think of our everyday lives, that is really on the rise, right? People want to support uh brands and buy products that care about the environment and care about the people on this earth. So we see, like in our day-to-day lives, we might see, you can actually see FSC certified products at home, right? It could be a notebook, something, uh, kitchen utensil, furniture, clothes, shoes. Um, there are various like big name brands that are now using FSC certified products in in those realms. So now we can take that idea of conscious consumerism and really bring it into the world uh that we live in professionally, architecture and wood building products. So it's really exciting. And I think another benefit for organizations that use FSC certified wood products is that it can support their organization's sustainability goals. So now it's very common for corporations and nonprofits and all sorts of institutions to release annual corporate sustainability reports. And that is something that really a way for organizations to really walk the walk is saying we are choosing these materials because they support our bigger organizational goals.
Matt Gerstner:Amazing. I'll be honest. When the idea for this podcast came up and I I saw some of the information that was available, I didn't even tie it back to just general consumer products. I was totally just thinking in the realm of architecture. So the when you said notebook, I my bing, you know, light bulb went off in my head. Holy cow, like this this doesn't just affect architecture. This can affect everything.
Rasa Zeltina:Right. It's far reaching. And I'm sure we all probably very likely all of us have products right now in our home that have that the FSC label is a sort of check mark tree label, this distinctive logo that they have. And you just when you when you start, you know, being aware of it, you kind of then see it everywhere in stores. And I know that FSC, I read that they recently partnered with Amazon to offer uh uh FSC store on Amazon that has over 50,000 products. So it's really becoming um common just sort of across across everything.
Matt Gerstner:That's amazing. So thinking about uh the products that are available, you know, what kind of practical considerations or limitations do we have to consider when you're working with an FSC product?
Renee Wells:I think working with building owners is the first place to start to understand their sustainability goals. Working with the contractor and the owner to understand the cost impacts of using FSC certified wood. Currently, our research shows that there could be a 15 to 20 percent increase in cost, and that's the material cost. Okay, that's not saying your butt your entire project is going to cost 15 to 20 percent more, you're looking at wood products. So uh I looked at a recent project we did, it was about a $25 million dollar project, and just just the wood blocking, the wood framing on that was $75,000. So if you take a 15 to 20 percent increase, you're looking at maybe an $11,000 to $15,000 increase on a $25 million dollar project, which is a drop in the bucket to just improve one product just by using FSC certified blocking on your project. So don't think that you have to conquer the world on every project. If you could if you could take a step, it makes a difference. So I think looking at the cost impacts, looking at the schedule impacts, we have in in our information gathering, we have learned that maybe all millwork fabricators don't stock FSE certified wood. It may take a little longer for them to place the order and get the materials they need. But I believe if we work with the owner and the contractor and we plan for these, then we increase our likelihood of achieving these sustainable strategies just through coordinating and and planning.
Rasa Zeltina:I love how you were saying this idea of progress, not perfection. And maybe a project can pursue FSC certified wood for four doors only or for wall panels, but not feel like you have to do it like an all or nothing approach. You can do what works with your budget and your schedule. And I think one kind of challenge might be the perception that FSC certified wood is going to be prohibitively expensive or going to affect the project schedule more than it actually might in reality. When we're seeing, when we're talking with manufacturers and product reps and we're hearing a lot of them consistently say for standard projects that we products that we use on the bulk of our product projects, as Renee mentioned, maybe 15 to 20 percent-ish price markup, well, that could be entirely doable. Obviously, you have to consider budget, but it it is not necessarily out of the realm of possibility at all. And um, same with, as you said, Renee, with uh lead times. If you're looking to uh like a one to four week uh lead time for a product on a project with a really long construction timeline that is going to be entirely doable. Now, with a smaller project or something with a very, very tight budget, that's a it's another consideration. But, these these decisions may be more feasible than we realize sometimes.
Matt Gerstner:Yeah, you were saying how uh not all product manufacturers necessarily stock FSC products to make their products. Are we seeing more manufacturers using these kinds of products, though? Is the demand increasing enough where certain industries are starting to say, okay, we need to keep up. We need to make sure that we've got these kinds of things.
Renee Wells:I think that door manufacturers probably have have taken the lead on this. I think maybe millwork fabricators have possibly a little catching up to do. Uh, Ressa, you've had some recent conversations.
Rasa Zeltina:Yeah, I have been speaking with with reps and manufacturers, and my sense is that we're still at the in the early stages, relatively speaking, okay of FSC or other their other responsible um wood certifications as well. And that and and anticipating demand to increase, there's there's a sense that it will be increasing, but we're maybe still at the point where that's not quite happening very robustly yet.
Matt Gerstner:Okay.
Renee Wells:And I think that's where architects and design teams can push this.
Matt Gerstner:Absolutely. So from a spec specification side of things, is there anything else we need to take into consideration when utilizing these kinds of product products in a project?
Renee Wells:Communicating the sustainability goals to your specification writer is is an important start. Utilizing the products, looking at all the possibilities on a project, there's such a wide variety. If you're looking at plastic laminate casework, you think of the core to all of these could be FSC certified plywood, particle board, MDF. There are so many possibilities. If you're looking at wood wall panels or wood ceilings, just incorporating sustainable strategies using FSC certified wood veneer. There are just so many possibilities.
Matt Gerstner:So it sounds like there's a there's the possibility from a specification side of incorporating this into numerous areas within the specifications.
Renee Wells:Yes, if you think of anything that's wood, it it's gonna be the doors in the mill work, wood wall panels, ceilings, floors, countertops, if you've got plastic lamina countertops, all of those have that wood core. Wood framing and blocking. If you have a furniture package included in your project, furniture is a growing use of FSC certified.
Rasa Zeltina:So it sounds Renee like virtually any product that you any wood building product you can get in an FSC version. Yes, that's great.
Terri Ulrick:At the end of the day, specifying FSC certified wood is about trust and impact. We can tell our clients with confidence that their projects are contributing to healthier forests and healthier communities. And we know that those decisions, multiplied across many projects, add up to real change. That's the kind of leadership our industry needs right now, and it's the kind of leadership we're committed to.
Matt Gerstner:Can you kind of talk about maybe some challenges or successes that you've seen, you know, implementing FSC materials into projects?
Rasa Zeltina:I think one challenge is that using FSC certified products does add a degree of complexity. And it is something that is some is something that we can work with. But it you do have to think about a few extra things with FSC. So, first of all, uh a manufacturer, uh lumber uh wood manufacturer has to be certified. They have to be authorized to use FSC certified products. And that is a good thing because FSC is holding its standards at every at every point along the process, but they have to go through uh yearly auditing and there are certain things that they have to do. So you have to make sure that you're working with the correct manufacturers who have this ability to use FSC. And then there are other items as well, such as a chain of custody documentation, which basically means that the FSC wood is is tracked at every point along of its journey from the forest to the finished product site. And that requires accountability and paperwork as well. So there are things to be aware of, they're very doable, but you have to pay a bit more attention when FSC is part of the project.
Renee Wells:There are some sustainable strategies that are more appealing because they offer a payback to the owner financially. And FSC is really about doing the right thing for the environment. It's doing the right thing for communities and the environment and the overall help that using these strategies gives the communities, the environment. That is immeasurable.
Rasa Zeltina:Yes. And I think I think it is also natural for people to want to reap the the public relations benefits of their decision. You know, they're doing the right thing for its own sake, but also wanting people to know, like, hey, we did this because we care about that. I think that's I think that's incredibly understandable and relatable. And I think there are ways that organizations can do that. If they have FSE certified wood on uh a new building, they could point that out in tours. If it's a higher ed facility, you know, you have the student tour leaders bringing prospective students through. And I've heard they're highly influential to prospective students. They can point out, hey, we have this new building, and we specifically chose this responsibly managed wood to feature in here. It could also be the same, the same idea for a prospective uh new employee touring, uh touring an office space. Or as we mentioned earlier, it could be something that could be included in a corporate sustainability report. So there are ways that I think you can work in showing people that this is a value that your organization has. And in this day and age, when consumers and people are more than ever want to be aligned values-wise with where they school, where they work, who they are working with, that is an important piece of it that we can kind of lift out of kind of obscurity to so people can be a little bit more aware of that.
Matt Gerstner:Absolutely. I think that's probably one of the intangible benefits, if you will, to you utilizing certain products or utilizing certain methods of of construction, building materials that you're using. It's it's not necessarily like Renee said, going to give you to give the company a financial benefit immediately, but it's got intangible benefits to them that will pay off well in the long run, which is amazing. So when we're thinking about the FSC certified woods, then uh if it's not the right fit for a project, are there alternatives to this that are still falling into the sustainability realm?
Renee Wells:There are other organizations. I think FSC is the most internationally recognized. There are others. Like the program for endorsement of forest certification, PEFC is is another large one. There are others that promote sustainable, responsible forestry practices. I think even if certification is not suitable for a project, whether it's the the budget or the schedule, I still believe there are sustainable strategies that we can use. Using wood veneer instead of solid wood, you know, cutting down on the need for new wood is a is a strategy. Eliminating the use of exotic woods or using reclaimed wood if it's available, find locally sourced wood. Anything we can do to reduce the carbon footprint and protect the earth's resources is a step in the right direction.
Rasa Zeltina:Mm-hmm. Yeah, and I would add to that also reuse in instead of feeling like you have to, if it's a renovation project, instead of feeling like you have to necessarily bring in a new product, maybe you have something in place that can just be reused, a wood, a wood product or or or something else as well, is something to consider. I also wanted to tack on to what Renee said about the other organizations beyond the sea that have responsible forest management. There is one called Renee mentioned one, and there is another called Sustainable Forestry Initiative or SFI. This is another organization where you might see their products in your home. You might see the SFI logo on some of your home products. And there is another one, Canadian Standards Association. So there are a variety of them. We are learning, talking with our manufacturers and reps, is that in our environment where we design FSC is dominant. They need to go through a certification to provide these products. So instead of opting for multiple certifications for multiple organizations, the manufacturers that we've spoken to are kind of putting all their eggs in the FSC bucket. But in other parts of the world, or perhaps even other parts of the country, there might be other certifications that are a bit um more, you're a bit more likely to see as well.
Matt Gerstner:Okay. Okay, amazing. So so it sounds like there's options, but it also sounds like FSC is pretty much leading the way right now.
Rasa Zeltina:Yes.
Renee Wells:I think they are really the gold standard.
Matt Gerstner:Fantastic. So I know I've asked a lot of questions today, and we've hit on a lot of topics, but I don't necessarily get all the questions out. Are is there anything that I haven't asked that you've got some information you wanted to talk about?
Renee Wells:Just just reiterating the importance of of what this organization is doing and how many areas it it impacts. Cutting down on harmful chemicals that are being used in forests, the water quality that we get, the filtration that we get from these forests, the mental impact on the public as a whole of seeing healthy forests and not seeing just this massive deforestation. We just can't emphasize the impact enough of we have to protect these resources if we're at a critical point and have been for a while. So I think as architects, we need we need to push this, we need to make this happen.
Rasa Zeltina:Yeah, yeah. Well said, Renee. And then I would I would tack on, reiterate also this idea of progress, not perfection. Can we have the the courage to take that first step for a project and recommend FSC products for maybe one category and try it out and see how it goes and know that the cost impact likely will be minimal. But we we get we get to then as an organization and our clients get to learn what does that mean? What does it look like when we incorporate this? Um, how is that affecting our overall project? Um, so we get we get more data and more information while simultaneously doing the right thing.
Terri Ulrick:For us at BWBR, it's not just about checking a sustainability box. It's about aligning with the larger commitments we've made as a profession. The AIA materials pledge challenges us to think about health, equity, and climate in every material decision we make. The AIA framework for design excellence reminds us that design excellence is also about environment and social responsibility. FSC Wood is a very tangible way to put those values into practice.
Matt Gerstner:I really can't thank you all enough for being here today because I can see and hear the passion about sustainability and about preserving our resources. And it's just an amazing thing that we're all doing and we're trying to implement. And progress over perfection, absolutely fantastic. More small steps taken lead to those bigger goals, right?
Renee Wells:Yeah, absolutely.
Matt Gerstner:Thank you all for being here. I really appreciate your time today.
Renee Wells:Thanks. Thank you, Matt.
Matt Gerstner:And thank you to our listeners for listening. Go check out the podcast, go check out more information on our website, and we will see you again soon. This has been Side of Design from BWBR, brought to you without any paid advertisements or commercials. If you found value in what you've heard today, give us a like, leave us a comment, or better yet, share us with your network. You can also reach out to us if you'd like to share an idea for a show or start a discussion. Email us at sideofdesign@bwbr.com.
