Side of Design
A podcast from BWBR, for those with a craving to take their organizations and spaces to new heights, with a side of design. We explore topics and issues affecting how we heal, learn, work, research, play and pray with those whose passion and expertise centers on the spaces that enable us to do all of that.
Side of Design
Side Notes: Connecting Operational Insight to Smarter Design
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Senior Planner Jessica Sweeney took a unique path to planning healthcare environments at BWBR. With a background that helps bridge the challenges health organizations face with the solutions architecture can provide, her specialized insight brings key value to our design teams and client stakeholders. In this episode of Side Notes, she shares her fascinating career journey and how it lends itself to creating high-performing facilities that are data-informed, staff-friendly, and patient-centric.
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Welcome And Episode Focus
Matthew GerstnerWelcome to Side Notes, the bite-sized version of Side of Design. In 15 minutes or less, we'll explore one idea, one insight, or one conversation worth hearing. Let's get to it. Welcome to Side Notes, the bite-sized version of Side of Design. I'm your host, Matt Gersner. Joining me today is Jessica Sweeney, senior planner with BWBR. I'm excited that we are getting to sit down and talk about your unique career path and you know, it's what led you here to BWBR, and it really does provide this strength to all the teams that you're on. So I'm really excited to drive, dive down right into it. Jessica, thanks for making time to be here. Yeah, thank you for having me. All right. So we don't waste time on this podcast. We get right to it.
Jessica’s Meandering Path Begins
Matthew GerstnerI want to start by talking about what your career path was, you know, what you went to school for, what you started doing out of school, and how you wound up here.
Jessica SweeneyYeah. Um, mine is a little meandering, I think, as as some of our more unique roles in the firm would uh would equate to. Yeah. So I have a law degree. Um, and in law school, I was focused on healthcare law and a couple other things. Um, but I was also doing my MPH at the same time. And so taking a lot of classes around the public health world, the healthcare world, and then that law piece. And I decided um that working for a law firm was not going to fulfill my happiness going forward. And so I went into an administrative fellowship role. Um, healthcare has a pretty cool world where um they really try to train their future leaders. And so, similar to how you train a physician, you train your administrative leadership
From Law And Public Health To Operations
Jessica Sweeneyteam. Okay. So I went out to EMHS in Maine, Eastern Maine Healthcare Systems, and I worked under their C-suite, under their administrative team, and learned healthcare, learned the business.
Matthew GerstnerOkay. Okay. So it was the business side of healthcare that you dove right into. Okay.
Jessica SweeneyAnd then coming out of that, I was in an innovation and strategy role where I was helping EMHS move from a fee-for-service world into this value-based care world that we are still kind of dipping our toes into. But I think we're seeing a uh an even faster move towards that idea of how do we keep people healthy? Um, how do we pay for patients to get care versus how do we pay for them to see their physician, which are two very different things.
Matthew GerstnerRight, right.
Jessica SweeneyUm, and then out of that, I wanted to come back to the Midwest, to my roots, back to Wisconsin.
Matthew GerstnerOkay.
Jessica SweeneyAnd I took an operational leadership role with SSM Health.
Matthew GerstnerOh, okay.
Jessica SweeneySo I really kind of
Value-Based Care And Community Health
Jessica Sweeneydid both sides, that operation, that strategy, innovation, transformation in understanding healthcare as a whole. Yeah. I do have some core beliefs that were in that transition, which is how do we keep healthy people healthy? Um, how do we affect the health of our communities? And what roles and responsibilities do healthcare organizations have in that function, which is how do you keep people healthy? Um, not how do you take care of them when they're sick, or um which is still a very important thing. We have to move upstream if we're gonna have healthcare work for everybody. Um, so some of those, those, those pieces all kind of flowed together to my core belief set and really uh what do I want to do with when I grow up, which I'm still not sure I know what I want to do when I grow up.
Matthew GerstnerI think that's I think it's a challenge for everybody all the time. Yeah.
Leading Oncology Operations And A New Clinic
Jessica SweeneyUm, and so then when I was at SSM Health, we were building an ambulatory care facility. So we were looking at uh basically a clinic. It housed oncology. Oncology was where I was working. Okay, specifically. Yep. So I was an operational leader in oncology, palliative care, and infusion services.
Matthew GerstnerOkay.
Jessica SweeneyAnd we needed to design this new medical office building. Yeah. Um and that process was unique to me. It was not something I had done before. Um, and I thought that there were some things that we could really do better. I think connection with our healthcare teams was something as a leader that I felt um we could really we could do in a way that worked for the healthcare teams and also worked for the purpose of the building. And then I had a friend who worked for BWBR and they said that this role was up. And so I started exploring and I talked to some folks and wanted to see what BWBR
Jumping To BWBR And A New Mission
Jessica Sweeneywas all about.
Matthew GerstnerRight, right.
Jessica SweeneyUm, and I made the jump over here for a few reasons. One, okay, I think we can do the design process uh maybe better than what I experienced, or in a more complete way that really worked for our teams. But two, BWBR was focused on what healthcare could be. So instead of how do we build a building, how do we put spaces together for what somebody says they need, really marrying that to this idea that we can drive healthcare forward, we can operate in a different way. We can use the spaces as they exist to support the healthcare teams to providing the care that they're doing right now, but also what they might need to provide. Yeah. And so this idea going back to my um initial roots at EMHS, which is how do we help the health of the community? How do we support providers and healthcare teams in keeping their communities healthy? Um, and how do we think about the healthcare
Designing Space To Drive Better Care
Jessica Sweeneyworld, the healthcare ecostructure overall in what their goals are? Like how do how do we support that? How do we use our physical space to support those goals?
Matthew GerstnerYeah. And it's it's I don't think that's something people think about. No. How spaces can help heal.
Jessica SweeneyYep.
Matthew GerstnerYeah.
Jessica SweeneyYes. And and and in the design of the actual spaces, but also how do we support our clinicians in helping keep people healthy? Yeah. Um, so it it's even a movement from an inpatient space to an outpatient space, which is going back to that initial value-based care world.
Matthew GerstnerYep.
Jessica SweeneyAll of these kind of flow together to think about the healthcare that we're providing and that we're and how do we design those spaces?
Matthew GerstnerI love it. I love it. Abs such a such a unique path from law school into healthcare and now into the design world. Absolutely fantastic. So now that we've got the background, your role here is a little bit different. So can you tell our listeners a little bit more about how that background that you brought here affects the job, how it makes your role different, and why do you love it?
Jessica SweeneyYeah.
Bridging Healthcare And Architecture
Jessica SweeneyUm, so my role is often in the beginning of projects when it's project-based. And so we are thinking about the what's, the hows, the how many's, um, how are they laid out? And I get to pull a little bit of that data piece in. So thinking about what's the number that we need to provide, um, what is the right room number, what is the right room organization, how do we define those rooms? Um, and thinking with our project teams and with our architectural teams on how do they lay out? How do you function within those spaces? And so oftentimes the conversations I'm having are more around, okay, what are you, what care are you providing? What do you need to provide going forward? What could things look like? Um, where, what hours are you using them? Are you, how many days a week are you using them? Getting into that utilization of spaces so that I can work with our team to lay them out in a way that makes sense for the care that they're providing today and for the care that they might need to provide in the future.
Matthew GerstnerOkay.
Jessica SweeneyBut then also working with those healthcare teams to ask the right questions of the architectural group. Um, oftentimes it's a go-between. It's a little bit of a definitional role where we have our own language in architect in our the architectural world, and healthcare has their own language. How do we make sure that we're speaking that same language, that we're asking questions that make sense? Um, and also it's developing that connection uh with our healthcare teams. Absolutely. So I've been there. Um I managed through COVID, which was
Financing Pressures And Utilization
Jessica Sweeneya unique time for everybody.
Matthew GerstnerAbsolutely was.
Jessica SweeneyBut our heart, our healthcare teams had some very unique challenges through that. And so when they hear that there's somebody who has been there, who's worked side by side, um, you know, I can talk about the staffing needs, the staffing issues, payment models, things like that that aren't core to the architectural group, but are very helpful when they're thinking about the spaces.
Matthew GerstnerYeah. So you've got you've got a great working knowledge of the healthcare side.
Jessica SweeneyYep.
Matthew GerstnerAnd you understand what we're doing from the experience that you've had working not with us, but with us on the client side of things. And now you're with us on everything that we do and you get into the world. So you're, yeah, I love that. That intermediary, that bridge that brings it together.
Jessica SweeneyYes. And right now we're struggling. The healthcare organizations as a whole are struggling with how to finance. Okay. Um, it it's in the news. Uh, how do we pay for health care? How should we pay for healthcare? How do we get the fun the funds there? Um, healthcare margins are incredibly small when you think about an overall business. And you cannot have a space that's underutilized right now.
Matthew GerstnerI don't doubt it. I don't doubt it.
Jessica SweeneyUm, thinking about that piece too, how do we make sure that spaces are utilized to the extent
Flexibility And Future-Proofing
Jessica Sweeneyuh we work with a lot of rural clients and they might have a specialist in once a month or once a week or but they're not there 40 hours a week typically. And how do we make sure that that space that they need to use when they're in functions for them, but then it also functions in a different capacity when they're not in. So asking a lot of questions like that.
Matthew GerstnerYeah.
Jessica SweeneyAnd then we need flexibility for spaces um throughout time, not just uh, how do we make it flexible right now? But how do we, if healthcare looks different in two years, which we know it will.
Matthew GerstnerIt certainly could, yeah.
Jessica SweeneyUm, how do we make sure that our spaces are set up to function for you going forward?
Matthew GerstnerYeah.
unknownYeah.
Matthew GerstnerIt's it's it's almost a little magic ball kind of thing. Like looking into the future. If only. Yeah, trying trying to nail it as best we can. Yes. All right. So so you that's your role.
Jessica SweeneyMm-hmm.
Matthew GerstnerWhy do you love it?
Why The Work Matters To Communities
Jessica SweeneyWell, I think we we've dove into it a little bit, which is what is what is healthcare gonna look like? Um and I get to work with clients and I get to work with our teams to say healthcare is not even tomorrow, it's gonna be slightly different. And so, how do we set people up for that success? How do we start to think about it? Um, we know through studies that when a healthcare organization leaves a community, a small community, um, that is the core ecosystem of those communities. And so if we lose that, um that community is gonna struggle. They're gonna struggle financially, they're gonna struggle um socially, they're gonna struggle culturally because of those changes that exist. And as an organization, we feel strongly in helping support our rural facilities, our smaller facilities be what they need to be for the community. And so I think all of these pieces just driving forward into how do we support our clients, how do we support our partners, how do we support the communities, and how do we help them think about healthcare so that it exists in 10 years, in 20 years, in 50 years, in whatever capacity that might be. Um, and I get to kind of marry that that core function when I thought about, you know, how do we keep communities healthy? Yeah. How do we keep them thriving? That is it's a unique space when we think about that infrastructure that exists. So I think we get to, I get to be in a very unique role where I marry that that core function of keeping communities healthy, keeping people healthy with the spaces that exist.
Excitement And Caution About What’s Next
Matthew GerstnerI can absolutely see why that would be something that you would love. Yeah.
Jessica SweeneyIt fills your cup.
Matthew GerstnerThat is so cool. So this I I I kind of feel like we answered this question. What what are you most excited about in healthcare? And it sounds like you're excited about the future a little bit to me, but is there more?
Jessica SweeneyUm yes. I think there's a lot of concern right now, um, which exists on what will it look like? How do we pay for it? Okay. Um, but I do feel like BWBR is positioned well to help be partners with our clients. Um, we actually usually don't call them clients, we call them partners because we want to build those relationships and help them be in a world where it works for everybody. And so there is that piece. But I mean, we don't know what's happening. We don't know what's gonna exist, we don't know how we're gonna pay for it. Right. Uh that's a big concern. Um, I think when we look at where healthcare is moving, there are some unique changes that are are coming. Um, we know that inpatient world is needs to grow because of the patients that are coming up, um, but we also need to stop taking care of patients in an inpatient setting that need to be in an outpatient setting. So, how do we support our partners in that endeavor? Um, we have a failing infrastructure because everything is 50 to 60 years old in some of these rural communities. Um, so how do we support the mechanical structures? How do we support all of those pieces and keep these facilities thriving?
Matthew GerstnerRight, right.
Jessica SweeneyUm, what does that mean? Does that mean changing what exists right now? Does that mean building new? Um, how do we support our clients in making some of those decisions? And a lot of the research coming out right now, a lot of the thought leaders in our world, it's not build more. It's build different, it's function different. Right, right. Use that space in a different way. Um, and so there's there's definitely excitement. Yeah. But there's also a little bit of caution in how do we do this the right way.
Matthew GerstnerYeah.
Jessica SweeneyBecause
Closing Thoughts And Thanks
Jessica Sweeneywe don't have the funds to get it wrong.
Matthew GerstnerRight. I can I can see those the excitement and the challenge side of all of all of that.
Jessica SweeneySo we it's good that we have an all-encompassing conversation. We want to have a very holistic conversation around the care that our clients and our partners need to provide that exists beyond just what are the spaces. And so I feel like we are we are in a place where we get to do that, and that's really exciting.
Matthew GerstnerAbsolutely love it. And Jessica, thank you so much for making this time today. This has been a fantastic conversation. I know you've given our listeners a lot to think about today, and we will catch all of our listeners in the next episode. Thank you.
Jessica SweeneyThank you.
