Witch trials of Jersey, Channel Islands

Did you know that Jersey was considered the witch hunting capital of Atlantic Europe?
Mel and Perry look at Jersey Archive documents and explore how public beliefs of witchcraft turned into moral panic and  prosecution.

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Transcript

Perry (00:02):

Welcome to the Jersey Heritage Podcast,

Mel (00:05):

The Small Island Big Story sessions.

Perry (00:08):

You are listening to Mel and Perry. In today's episode, we're going to be talking about the witch trials of Jersey in the Channel Islands. Did you know that we were considered the witch hunting capital Atlantic Europe?

Mel (00:20):

By looking at the Jersey archive documents? We'll be exploring how public beliefs of witchcraft turned into moral panic and prosecution. We're joined today by Linda Romal, who is the archives and collections director at Jersey Heritage. So welcome, Linda.

Mel (00:37):

What are we gonna be looking at today

Linda (00:41):

Today? We're gonna be talking about the Jersey witch trials of the 16th and 17th century. So we're going quite far back in time. We've got some really lovely court records to look at that help us tell the story of what happened in Jersey and how we can put that in context as to what was happening in England and, and also Europe. So we see a lot of witch trials during this period, but it's really interesting to look at Jersey in particular and what happened here.

Mel (01:08):

What would be the first record that we could look at today in terms of the first one that we have recorded?

Linda (01:15):

The first record we actually have of which is being burnt in the island comes from 1562. And that's actually recorded in a chronicle that was written towards the end of the 1500. So actually written not long after the events took place. So if you can imagine it might well have been within the person who wrote his lifetime. He might well be remembering these events. So we have two women in 1562 who were burnt as witches. They were, one of them was called Anne. She was from St. Ard, we don't know her surname. And the other one was Michelle la Vesti, which basically means the white dress, Michelle, of the white dress.

Perry (01:55):

Oh, okay. That's so cool. What, what kind of bought the, the kind of moral panic to, to which trials and, and witch hunting to Jersey, because obviously it was, it was going crazy all around all around Europe and England at that time.

Linda (02:11):

It was, and we can see certainly by the 15th century, the sort of papal inquisitions. We have the rise of heresy in France. We have the tensions between the traditional Catholic church and the growing Protestant religion. So if you can imagine in Europe, there's a lot of turmoil at this time in people's beliefs. And we can see certainly by the early 15 hundreds, we've got witchcraft panic taking place throughout Europe. We have mass executions particularly in somewhere like Germany. There was 20,000 killed in Germany. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative> over the period. Less in England, but interesting in terms of Jersey that we sit right between obviously continental Europe and England. So we can't really see exactly why they came to Jersey in the 1560s, but we can certainly see there would've been that background. Obviously people were trading in and out of Jersey at the time. So there's people coming from ports in France sort of bringing news of the witch trials. And again, we've got that background of the reformation happening in England. So we can see in Jersey 1560s is where we see the first outbreaks of witch trials in the island. But I suppose the other thing to talk about, which I think is really interesting is the connection. In Jersey, we have these clusters of trials, so you'll have four or five together and then maybe nothing for 8, 9, 10 years. Wow.

Perry (03:42):

Massive

Linda (03:43):

Gap. Yeah. So what we think is that those are connected to outbreaks of plague in the island. Yeah. Which kind of, to me makes a lot of sense because one of the things that people were accused of witchcraft for was if they were, if you like, a, like a healer or like a wise woman. Mm-Hmm. And the church did not want you to go and see one of these women. Mm-Hmm. If you, you were ill or if a relative was ill, they wanted you to go and see the sort of established doctors. And we can see that the witch trials definitely correlate with plage in the island.

Perry (04:23):

Okay. So, so do you think there was, there was a, a time when people did accept these wise healers and wise women and wise men as part of the community. And, and do you think that this change of religious upheaval and stuff, do you think that's what caused people to turn on them? Or do you think that these wise healers and women and stuff were, were like a, a relatively new thing that people were reacting to?

Linda (04:51):

I think probably there's always been someone in that role in the community, and this was very much the church, the establishment, trying to kind of batten down on that. We do actually have, in 1591, we have an order in the Royal Court in Jersey to say that anybody who consults with witches Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative> when they're ill or a relative is ill, are seen to be as guilty as the witch themselves. Right. So basically the legal edict is if you go and see this lady for healing powers then you could well end up in court yourself and, and could end up ultimately being executed. So really, really strong from the royal court there saying, no, we need to keep this with the establishment. But people still went and consulted Yeah. With these women because they were desperate because they wanted their family to recover. You know, we know Plague was a, a disease that did kill most people. Yeah. So these people are desperate. They just wanted to do anything to keep their loved ones with them.

Perry (05:58):

Yeah, absolutely. And in terms of, of of people that were being targeted what, what kinds of people did, did the records show? Were, were being accused of these, of these things?

Linda (06:12):

So it's a bit of a mix. We've got some different examples that we can use. We can see that the witchcraft or certainly those accused of witchcraft, it does run in families

Perry (06:25):

That's

Linda (06:25):

Really interesting, which is really interesting is sometimes over generations. So particularly the Tallie family is one of the families that come up. Yeah. So T-O-U-R-G-I-S, the Tourgi family, I don't dunno if there's still any, is

Perry (06:39):

That a name

Linda (06:40):

To I've never

Perry (06:41):

Heard of that. It might be an extinct name or, and that's a question I had actually is, is there like a trend, is it mostly local people or are there, is it like something that targets immigrants or is it as you say, a mix of both things?

Linda (06:55):

If we look at the surnames, it's very much some traditional surnames. Yeah. So you have lave cart, you have a enough very familiar surnames. Mm-Hmm. So I think mainly people who were living in the island and maybe his families had been here for a while. But yeah, absolutely. Toge family. We've got the 1608, they were on trial. There was the mother Andre, and then Jan and Marie, her two daughters. Right.

Perry (07:23):

So just the women in that particular family, just

Linda (07:25):

The women in that particular family. But we can see as we look through the records that all three of them were accused of witchcraft in October of 1608. So we'll have the trial records of that. There's another daughter, Mabel who is accused of having a child outside wedlock. So we can kind of see some themes there around families maybe who were slightly on the edges of society. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> the child died and the mother is accused of causing the child's death. So some very kind of interesting social themes coming through. Yes.

Perry (08:07):

And do we have any records of any men or children being convicted?

Linda (08:12):

We do. So total, in total across the witch trials, there were at least 65 witch trials in total, right. That have been found in the records. I think it's an area where with a lot of time and patience, it would be really good to go back through those records again and see what else we could find. But certainly we've got 65 confirm trials. Of those we have eight. So, so in total there's eight men who are recused over that time period. 57 women, so predominantly women, but there are men there as well. One of them, a gentleman called Simon Rodin, he's interesting because, so you'll get some of the witches, some of those accused of being witches will deny the charges. Yeah. And then they would be taken to an oncat or like an inquiry. They would be investigated by 24 men, obviously always men at this time, rather than women being on a jury. And they would have to prove they were guilty. We do have examples of some confessing to the crime of witchcraft. And I think Simon is one of these. He confesses to having discourse with the devil when the devil was in the form of a crow. Mm-Hmm. So we've got all that kind of really colorful detail coming through in the court records

Perry (09:30):

In terms of proportion to the population jersey at the time. That's, that's quite a large amount of people being prosecuted and and killed, essentially. Were they They weren't all killed though.

Linda (09:43):

No. There were 33 of that. The 65 who were executed, eight of them were banished. But what we do see people coming back again, so they, they appear once and they're told to mend their ways, and then maybe they'll come back in five, six years time. And sometimes that will ultimately lead to execution. So if people are almost like a repeat offender eventually the law will catch up with them. But yeah, in terms of population, we think there's about 10,000 people living in the island at the time. A bit different to today, <laugh>. But yeah, it's quite a high proportion.

Perry (10:18):

I'll tell you. It'd be really interesting to know. You said there's about eight, eight men and, and all the rest were women. What was different about these men that they were singled out for the crime of witchcraft that at least at this time seemed to be something that was considered a feminine thing? Possibly. do we know much information about the individual people that were accused of the crime or any specific reasons?

Linda (10:47):

We know a little bit. Yeah. And I think this is where it gets really tantalizing because we are looking at the sort of 15, 16 hundreds. We don't have the breadth of records that we would have from later century. So we have the court document itself. In some cases we can trace family relationships, so we might have church registers of baptisms, marriages and burials, which is just quite interesting. I, I think in Simon's case, he's married, he has children. So in that way he doesn't seem to be an outcast. So why he's then ended up in this situation. I think one of the things that would be really, really interesting is to look through the court records to see if there were people who'd been in trouble before. Mm-Hmm. So we've got one example of a lady who was in her sixties Marie Il I think her surname is she, she was single lady.

Linda (11:38):

She was in her sixties. She lived in St. Clement and she was eventually burnt as a witch or hang and then burnt at Sam Ray Manor because the Lord of the Fief had the right to carry out the sentence from the court on their land. So it would usually be the sentence was carried out in the royal square. Mm. But in this case, the senor said, no, I want to, I suppose, make an example of her to my tenants. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>. So she was hung and burnt where Sam Manor is, is now. But Marie's interesting because she actually appears in court records before her trial. Not accused of witchcraft, but just as a bit of a general nuisance. So you have her neighbors complaining about her Poor Marie. So you do feel quite sorry. Yeah. She's sort of this single lady. Yeah.

Perry (12:27):

I suppose, I guess maybe we can infer there's a few different reasons, but maybe like mental illness that wasn't really well understood then it is quite easy to place in the, in the kind of realm of rich witchcraft.

Linda (12:44):

Yeah. I think that's really interesting. And I think in her case, as I say, she was obviously socially, she lived on her own. She didn't have family connections. I don't think she had any siblings. And she's seen as this slightly strange old lady who's a bit of a nuisance Mm-Hmm. And she makes noises at night and it's the kind of thing now I think that would be treated in a very, very different way.

Perry (13:08):

Yeah. She would've been totally isolated at the time. I'd imagine. So it's just the easiest thing to do, isn't it, to kind of like ostracize, her jersey has quite a strong parish sense. So like we have a very strong sense of like east and west and all this kind of stuff now, but, and we can move around really freely. But in terms of back in this time period, is there any correlation as to the locations of the island where people were being prosecuted more so than others?

Linda (13:37):

That's a really interesting question. I have to say, it's not something I've looked at. Certainly we've got cases of people St. Clement, Greenville, we've got people in St. John people up at St. Juan. So I think it, it does sit across the island and you are absolutely right because at this time people wouldn't have been as mobile as they are now. If you lived in St. Juan, you probably didn't often leave the parish. Absolutely. Yeah. So, so that is a really interesting question, but we do seem to have a spread across the island, but really interesting to map it.

Perry (14:09):

Yeah. It would be just to work out if it's like, if there are certain areas, you know, 'cause witch crops obviously relink to things like, you know, the solstice and the equinoxes and you know, that whole calendar of events. So it'd be interesting to see if there's any correlation,

Linda (14:25):

I suppose you do seem to have it, there are little clusters. I mean, we, I mean one of the sort of iconic physical connections in the island with the witch trials is, is, which is rock at rock berg. Yeah. so obviously more more about folklore, but we do know there were three witches, all of whom lived in St. Clement or people accused of being witches. And they all were accused around the same time. So almost like a little group of them. Mm-Hmm. Living in that parish. Obviously near Burg. So there's all those sort of rumors flying around. Mm-Hmm. Because

Perry (15:00):

There's, so, like, in terms of the folklore stuff that I've read, there's so many sites across that coast down and Clements that seem to have a lot of connection. So it would be interesting to see if there were more people that were accused in those areas. Are you a Jersey Heritage member? If not, head to our website and sign up today?

Perry (15:25):

Well, the folklore is something that's, that's a really interesting topic and if anyone's interested in it there is a book I hope I pronounce his name right, John Lamie. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And I think this was the 1920s this book was published. And he kind of got together all of the, the jersey folklore that he had at hand at the time and, and put it in this book in his own words. And it's not exhaustive, but there are some really interesting descriptions of spells and folklore stories surrounding witches and witchcraft. And they don't all seem negative or, or sort of disgusted by the idea, which makes me think there was a, a level of acceptable magic use in quotations that wasn't considered witchcraft necessarily. Or maybe it wasn't considered after the witch trials or it was fine before, or something like that. But I think that'd be a really interesting way to see like, how do these stories that survive to us today, were they something that were actually believed by people at the time, or how do they affect these witch trials, you know?

Linda (16:31):

Yeah. They're really interesting, aren't they? I mean, you've got sort of I think there's one in there of Madeline and Hubert. So Madeline was of course the most beautiful girl in the parish, and Hubert was this young sailor who went off fishing and then got ensnared by witches. And she had to save him. So it's lots of those kind of stories. Actually, one of the interesting things is in terms of, I suppose, the crossover between reality and folklore. Yeah. I mentioned the toge family, so apparently many, many years after the witch trials in the east of the island, 'cause that's where the toge were from. Apparently children were still scared by Right. Yeah. Married toge. So parents would say, if you are not good, if you don't go to bed, I'll send for married Toey and she'll come after you. Really? So it's like that kind of almost reality of 1608 went right through the centuries. And I think somebody writing in the 1930s remembers that being said. Right. So that's 300 years later.

Perry (17:36):

Wow. Well, there is a, there is like a public spectacle and entertainment level to this, isn't there? I mean, is is, do you think this was something that people enjoyed the spectacle of, or Well,

Linda (17:46):

One, one of the cases that's really interesting that we do, do have a bit more information on is Marie aif. So she was tried in 1648, so you're talking right in the middle of the Civil War period. And again, we see a little cluster around this time. So we have a little bit more information about Marie because this is a time Jean Valier was writing a diary. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. So we actually have his account of her trial and then execution. And he actually says in his book the church yard and the Town Hill were wronged with men and women, boys and girls. Such crowds had not been seen since Prince Charles came to the island. So in terms of public spectacle this is basically to see a woman tried and then executed. But yeah, if you can imagine all of the royal square all around would've been thronged with people waiting to see what

Perry (18:46):

Happened would've been like the day out of the year.

Linda (18:49):

Yes.

Perry (18:49):

Which is like awful really, when you think about it and put that into context. And in terms of identifying a witch, what, what would they be looking at? What do we know about from these records, what they were being accused of? Was it a mark on the skin or was it the way they were behaving or was it specific events? Like do we have any understanding as to why they were being accused?

Linda (19:16):

So it seems generally that it would've been within the very small community that they lived in, where the initial accusations would've come from. So maybe or I went to her to try and get a potion to cure my cold and I ended up being really ill. And so it's their fault. So it's that sort of very local accusation. Initially, so in the case of Marie who we just talked about, Marie, and I mean, she's quite interesting 'cause she was from a really respectable family. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. So her grandfather was the rector of St. John. So you would think very much from the respectable side of of Jersey. She got married, she had children. But what we can see in her court records is she goes to prison at Montega. So that's where they would've been sent. And a number of people had testified that she'd used, I used the words that they, they would've used her diabolical spells to cause the deaths and illnesses of several humans and several beasts. Right. Is what she's been accused of. And again, I think people went to consult her when they were feeling ill. And obviously in some cases that worked out, but in some cases it didn't. So she's accused of all these deaths but also causing deaths of various different animals.

Perry (20:42):

Wow. And you mentioned there that they were sent to Monga. So what relationship does Monga have with the witch trials?

Linda (20:48):

So Monga would've been the prison at the time, so that's where the witches would've been sent. Or those accused of witchcraft, they would've been sent there. If they hadn't confessed, they could be held in jail for up to a year in Right. Pretty bad conditions and almost held until they confessed. Some did, some didn't. But if we can imagine you know, we're talking early 1600, it's not gonna be a pleasant experience.

Perry (21:20):

So there's an element of like torture and stuff like that in these confessions.

Linda (21:23):

Certainly deprivation and Yeah. Yeah. Being put in prison for a, for a year. Definitely.

Perry (21:29):

Were any, were any

Linda (21:30):

People killed

Perry (21:32):

A montega

Linda (21:33):

Know Some died in ca in, in whilst they were in prison, right? Yeah, absolutely. So they never came to trial. Some were released. So some, in some cases they weren't found to be enough evidence. I mean even in Marie's case, so it was 24 people who would've tried them. There were 20 who found her guilty, four who thought she was innocent, but that was enough. So sort of tick the scales. And in her case as well, we do have the sort of classic black mark found on her palette. So for her, I think that probably condemned her completely.

Perry (22:11):

I mean, it's an interesting topic. You said four people found her not guilty. Were there any kind of level headed people who, who sort of thought this was all a bit extreme or a bit a bit nonsense back in Jersey at the time?

Linda (22:25):

I mean, you would like to think so. Yeah. One of the, one of the issues we have is that the trial records are quite brief. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. So what we don't have is like the back and forth Yeah. Of the jury. And what they decided, we'd literally have the bare facts and figures. Mm. So we know it's 20 people, four, four people against, but we don't have the thoughts and feelings. Which is what's a real shame. Yeah. But I would imagine you would have to be fairly convinced and fairly strong in your own belief. Mm. If you are one of the four people finding her innocence to stand against that sort of public opinion,

Perry (23:04):

I wonder if there's an element of fear of actually saying, oh, I don't think she's guilty. And then that the finger can be pointed at you, you know? Yeah. Which sounds, it sounds like you could basically accused for any reason.

Linda (23:14):

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, we have evidence of two men, father and son, who were accused of witchcraft just because somebody said they'd gone and consulted a witch. So Yeah. Absolutely. Got to be careful, especially in these little clusters where we seem to have this crop of witchcraft trials popping up.

Perry (23:35):

Do you think that there's like an element of, of like interpersonal revenge and spite that's, this is a really, really useful tool to get rid of your neighbor of I dunno, they're they're infringing on your property or something like that?

Linda (23:49):

I think it's entirely possible. Yeah. I mean, you can certainly see it somewhere like Salem Witch trials. It's very much about those interpersonal relationships. In Jersey, again, the evidence is quite sparse. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, but almost these little tantalizing glimpses. As I said, Mary Filial caused a nuisance. The neighbor's best way to get rid of her is accuser of being a witch. Yeah. So I wouldn't be surprised if that was the case. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>.

Perry (24:20):

And in terms of like Jersey, in context of Europe and the world and what was going on at the time how significant were our trials in comparison to the rest of the world?

Linda (24:31):

Comparison to our population? I mean, we did have a lot. So Jersey has been called, or the Channel Islands have been called the Witch Hunting capital of Europe. So in the, in England there were a thousand trials but obviously a much, much bigger population. Whereas obviously Jersey, we, we did see a lot of trials, whether that's an impact of, of small communities,

Perry (24:56):

I was about to say

Linda (24:57):

I, I think that would be something that would be really interesting to look at. And even in England you have these pockets of witch trials. So the Pendle witch trials are very famous. So it's little pockets of almost a community experiencing that mass panic. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And, and again, we see it in America when the, so the, the witch trials in America a little bit later, things have come down in Europe. But we see that in somewhere like Salem. Yeah. Which is obviously very well known. And there was actually somebody from Jersey who was part of the Salem Witch trials. Really? Yeah.

Perry (25:31):

That's so interesting. I didn't know that. Did you know that?

Perry (25:34):

No, I didn't know that. So do we know about this person? So

Linda (25:37):

He was called Philip Elong. Okay.

Perry (25:40):

Elonga. Yeah.

Linda (25:41):

So, or long so which sort of translated to Philip English when he went over to America. Okay. But both he and his wife were caught up in the Salem Witch trials. He was accused of witchcraft. He actually fled Salem for New York. But eventually he was acquitted, but he had originally come from Jersey. Wow. so it's, yeah. Interesting.

Perry (26:03):

Yeah. And, and you, you brought up earlier that there's this kind of religious aspect, Protestantism coming in and maybe, you know, there's, there's a whole Catholic thing going on there. Do you think do you think that like Jersey's level of Protestantism was a factor in this? From, from what I've heard Protestantism be, became quite a big thing in Jersey even, especially like compared to other places. Do you think maybe that kind of that ref, the reformed, the, and Reformation was a reso, you know, something that added to this, like

Perry (26:39):

Propelled it?

Perry (26:39):

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Linda (26:41):

Yeah. It's quite possible. I think if, if we, if we look at again, the sort of dates that the witch trial started, so we're looking at the 1560, so that would've been sort of post reformation. You're into Elizabeth the first, but you would've just been through those years of sort of Edward the sick, very much Protestant reformer. Yeah. And then back to the traditional Catholic, and then moving on to Elizabeth. So there's a lot of religious turmoil at the time. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And as you say, Jersey was more on the Protestant reforming side, but then that sort of tension with the traditional Catholic church. And, and you see that again, I say during the 16 hundreds when you've got the Civil War and you've got the sort of royalists Yeah. And then the Commonwealth. So these kind of periods of quite intense differing beliefs Yeah. I suppose do lead to these kind of accusations.

Perry (27:42):

No, I wonder, I I wonder what the so the printing press was like a big thing that happened in, was it, was it Germany? The printing press was developed, and with that, I know there was lots of leaflets and booklets about kind of demonology and witchcraft and witch hunting. Do we know if the technology of the printing press kind of made it to Jersey? And do we know of any of these leaflets, these kind of moral panic leaflets made their way to Jersey?

Linda (28:11):

So sadly, we don't have any of those kind of leaflets here at the Archive, but we do know there was a particular publication which was in Latin Malus Rum. Oh yeah. The Hammer of the Witches. And that's a very famous publication that would've spread throughout Europe. And that was effectively your kind of witch hunters guide to finding Witches. And it talks about marks on the body. So we don't have direct evidence that would've been in Jersey, but it's very consistently throughout Europe, France, and England. So it wouldn't be surprising as, say you've got, there was huge trade coming in and out of Jersey at the time, so I'm sure these pamphlets and publications would've come to the island. Mm-Hmm.

Perry (29:03):

It would've been interesting to see how people would've amended their behaviors in order to avoid being accused of, of witchcraft, or, I find that fascinating, how, how that would've changed the society over time of, of how, you know, how likely were people to have been more themselves or less themselves as a, as a result of them being scared of being blamed for something that isn't true. Or, and

Linda (29:28):

That's where it's really interesting when you do see these families, because you sort of think they, they would've, or people who came back again and again, you would've thought they would've almost made a conscious decision, right? Well, I've been in trouble, trouble, or my mother's been in trouble, I'm, I'm gonna move away from this. So whether they tried to do that, but by then the reputation was there. Yeah. And just, which would've

Perry (29:49):

Been any hard to shift at the time,

Linda (29:51):

Which really would've been hard to shift. It's, you know, lots of small communities in the island, and once you've got a bad name it's very difficult to move away from that. I mean, interestingly with the ies, one of the girls was actually put, taken away from the family and put with a neighbor who were then supposed to look after her and make sure that she grew up

Perry (30:11):

Properly with the right influence.

Linda (30:13):

I mean, she did end up in court again. So obviously that didn't work. But it's kind of interesting, you see evidence of almost the court trying to intervene.

Perry (30:21):

Yeah. And how, and how they would've justified who are the right family to, to place these children with, because who's right is that judgment to make. It's just, I just find that really, really interesting.

Linda (30:32):

And she would've been a teenager at the time, so sort of suddenly taking on possibly this quite troubled teenager who's got this awful family background, mother and sisters accused of witches, one of the other sisters had an IEG legitimate child, which of course then would,

Perry (30:47):

It was a big no no,

Linda (30:47):

A big no no. So it's, when you look back and see that in almost a modern context, it's just really interesting to look at how would we deal with that differently Now,

Perry (30:58):

It'd be fascinating to place us in, in that time period, just just to observe, to see how things could have been different or how, how maybe they were the same.

Perry (31:06):

Yeah. I think, I think you see, even today, you've got people, they need a scapegoat to, to kind of put their, their fears about a certain topic that's on everybody's minds. You know, there needs to be a, a figure to put that fear and hatred onto and I think that's kinda happened to these families, didn't they, by the sounds of it. So

Linda (31:27):

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, people, nobody wants to be different. And the person that is a bit different is the person who gets

Perry (31:33):

Ostracized,

Linda (31:34):

Persecuted, ostracized. Yeah. Absolutely. And, and I guess that still happens

Perry (31:37):

Today. It does. Today it does for sure. Which is why we still use the term, you know, it's a witch hunt. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>, because that's, that's still very relative to, to what was going on hundreds of years ago. So, and it just going back slightly to we mentioned how if, if, if a witch was, you know, just they, if they decided a witch was guilty, they would normally have been hung and then burnt. Was that the case for everyone? Or

Linda (32:06):

In Jersey it was always that, that way round. So I think probably people have seen films or documentaries about witchcraft. It's, you have that image of people being burnt at the stake being burnt alive. That didn't happen in Jersey, so people were hung first, probably slightly small mercy. Mm. But then each of the court records is very specific that they're hung, but then their ashes their body has to be burnt to ashes.

Perry (32:34):

Okay.

Linda (32:34):

And it's almost like they're afraid of the witch coming back. Every single record Absolutely. Must be burnt to ashes.

Perry (32:43):

And would that have been done publicly?

Linda (32:45):

Yes. So the, that would've been done publicly, either in the Royal Square or in some cases, as I said, the senior of a fi f where the person lived could use his authority to say, I want the crime to be punished. I want the punishment to take place on my land so that my tenants can see what happens to you. And I suppose again, that's a bit that, that happened certainly in St. Juan. It happened in St. Clement. So we're looking back at a time where not everybody would've gone to town to see justice being meted out to these women. So it's almost like Samuel saying, well, I want an example set in my own fi

Perry (33:29):

Well, all of these people that were burned and, and accused, what was the kind of social status of these people? You know, are we seeing mostly kind of, if I can use the term like working class or lower class people? Is is there like any one of great standing being accused of this?

Linda (33:48):

It's quite tricky to tell. Obviously the majority of the island, it would would've been agricultural at the time. We can certainly see a mix between, as I say, we've got people like Mary Auf, her grandfather was the director of St. John's, so they're gonna have quite a high social standing. We've got the Toge family and Marie Fial who are probably a little bit more on the margins of society. But again, be really interesting to try and find out more about the background of all these people and actually really see are there records of them maybe trading elsewhere? Mm-Hmm. Were they purely agricultural farming people who lived in the island? I, I think there's a huge study that that could be done. Yeah. potentially looking at records we have here at the archive, but also maybe records in the national archive in, in England. So I think there's a lot more interesting things to come out about these people and their stories.

Perry (34:55):

Yeah, absolutely. And also looking at how I listened to a really interesting podcast recently that talked about how, you know, lots of these people were, were women that could have potentially left children behind. And then what happens to those children? They're mo they're suddenly now motherless. And how does that then impact the, the children's lives? And it's interesting how these stories have an impact down the generational line. I always found that quite an interesting concept that the story doesn't just end with that person dying. It's then how does it impact the family and the community? And then how does that then translate into like a longer standing heritage? So yeah, so you are right. There's so much more that can be unpacked here. And it's really important that we do keep uncovering these people's individual stories and preserving them and sharing them.

Perry (35:48):

That's something for any budding researchers or enthusiasts who might be listening, who are looking for topic to delve into. I think a lot of the time you think that all of these things are all known about and it's all been worked out and looked into, but there's, there's often like so much work and all these interesting topics that needs to be done. And anyone can do them really. So

Linda (36:08):

Yeah, that's right. Most definitely. I think it would be fascinating to really interrogate the court records, find every reference to these women, even if it's nothing to do with witchcraft, but just indications that they might have been in trouble before. There's definitely a case for looking through and finding out about the families. So absolutely. There is a really interesting research project for someone.

Perry (36:34):

And if you don't mind, it'd be really cool to actually talk about the documents. So so what do we actually have? What, what are these documents?

Linda (36:44):

So the core documents are the records from the core de cattel. And that was one of the courts that would've been running in Jersey at the time. So I can see, just looking at them here. Wow. they're, they're beautiful. They're beautifully written. So we are looking at sort of first half of the 17th century, so early hundreds. This is actually the case of Mary Toge. So the records are written in what's called secretary hand. So it's a slightly different script. Some of the letter shapes are a little bit different to today. So when you first look at them, they look a little bit different, but you can soon get your eye in and start working out the words. They're all in French. And we can see what's interesting. So the cord to Cattel obviously just didn't do witch trials, lots of other business around chattels other criminal cases, but the witch ones seem to have, you can sort of see on the end here. Yeah. It's been highlighted.

Perry (37:48):

Okay.

Linda (37:49):

So there does seem to be, and on this one for example, we've got sentence criminal written into the margin.

Perry (38:00):

Right.

Perry (38:02):

So this was a particular interest to people either maybe at the time or slightly later that someone's already looked into this

Linda (38:09):

<Laugh> and that then you get, again, these clusters. So you'll get maybe 50 pages of the volume with nothing to do with the witch trials, and then suddenly you'll get five pages with four different cases in a row. So they've obviously brought them together and tried them at the same time. But what it basically would tell us is the person who's being sentenced effectively that they're accused of. They say that the diabolical crime of sort large or witchcraft and then you'll have the sentence and what happened to them. Right.

Perry (38:47):

And how big are these documents? How would we describe the size of them? 

Linda (38:51):

So the books themselves are, they vary <laugh> some of them are thicker than others. They are probably between a four and five, A five in size. Some of them have three, 400 pages of pretty densely written text. As I say, they, they are a fascinating read. They have lots in there that aren't witch trials. But tell us about what life would've been like in Jersey at the time, who was coming to court and, and why.

Perry (39:25):

And can anyone come and have a look at these documents? Yes.

Linda (39:28):

Anyone can have a look at them. We have got digital copies of all of them now. 'cause As you can imagine, they're, some of them are over 400 years old, so they're pretty fragile. So we have digital copies that people can look at, but there is nothing like seeing the original. So yes, absolutely. People can come and have a look at those too. And

Perry (39:48):

What kinds of, do we see any kind of like personal notes put in the margins of these or anything like that? Or are they all kind of very professionally done and

Linda (39:56):

They're pretty formal? I mean, this is back when this would've been somebody's job writing out these court records. Sometimes you will get little pictures in the margin. So if the scribe was particularly artistic, you might get a little face or some flowers in some of the documents, which are really, really lovely. That's really sweet. But other than that, they're pretty formal. Hardly any mistakes. Yeah. Again, 'cause this was their job to write these out. But yes, every so often, so you might have a bit of an embellished. So on this one here, we've got a little bit of embellishment on the see Yeah. On the capital letter. So they're very much functional documents. But every so often I think the scribe gave a bit

Perry (40:42):

Of fla,

Linda (40:44):

They're

Perry (40:45):

Absolutely beautiful records to look out. They really are. And so lovely that people can, can come and actually see them that they're not just hidden away somewhere. It's lovely that we're able to share these documents. And Linda, do you, do we have any idea as to when the witch trials in Jersey tended to kind of diminish and end? Is there like any evidence that supports that?

Linda (41:10):

So in Jersey, actually quite similar to the rest of Europe, in that once we get past the 1640, 1650s into the restoration of the monarchy, we see the witchcraft which trials basically diminishing in the island. The last trial in Jersey was in 1661, the last recorded trial that we have evidence of. And as I say, it tended to be that then the sort of panic around witchcraft actually moved over to America. So it's almost like it went, went over to America. But in Jersey we have a few little records, sort of snippets of later, not which trials in the island, but people accused of, of witchcraft. So there is a case in the ecclesiastical court. Yeah. Which is a really, really interesting court. So the ecclesiastical court basically was set up to try what's called moral crimes. Right. So if you committed adultery, if you had sex before marriage, you would end up in the ecclesiastical court. Wow. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>. And your sentence would normally be, because it wasn't a civil court, you it would be having to go into church on a Sunday and confess before the, the congregation on your knees. So it's that kind of crime. So we have some examples in there of Marie Godfrey. There's lots of Maries <laugh>.

Perry (42:34):

Yeah. It seems to be a common name. Yeah, yeah,

Linda (42:36):

Yeah, yeah. So she, she appears in ecclesiastical court in the 18th century. She's charged with practicing illicit arts and uncovering things that are hidden. She doesn't go to criminal courts, but she just promises in the ecclesiastical court that she won't do that again. Oh, okay. <Laugh>. So that seems to have that panic. That panic seems to have gone. So you can imagine a hundred years earlier, she would not have been in that situation. She would not have had that sentence. It might well have been a lot more severe. And then we've got an extract in Trinity burial records from actually 1765, so quite a bit later. Okay. and this is a, an Elizabeth Gavi who apparently not, not particularly nice story, but she was found dead and was apparently murdered by people who had accused her of witchcraft.

Perry (43:36):

Wow. So that one was done off the record. Yeah. That's terrible.

Linda (43:39):

But again, with her, we have a sort of, again, a tantalizing glimpse into what her life must have been like in the burial entry. It actually says she was a poor innocent who was born innocent and lived her life innocent. So whether that gives us a bit of an indication of her, a mental health maybe, and she was obviously persecuted by her neighbors. So it's a really sad one to end on. That is really, yeah. That is really sad. They'd accused her of witchcraft, but I think probably there's a different story

Perry (44:14):

Yeah. But also an interesting dynamic that, because that was taken into the community's own hands, how that is now seen as she was innocent. But if it had been done in a more potentially had been taken to the court, would that have then had a different element? Well,

Linda (44:26):

You can imagine again, if that had been, what, 200 years earlier, probably would've had a very different Absolutely. The, the neighbors probably would've taken, been taken seriously and she possibly would've ended up in court. But it's almost an excuse you feel Yeah. Absolute from this case. Absolutely.

Perry (44:42):

Yeah.

Perry (44:43):

I wonder if we have any, do we have any like, reflection from people in, in the kind of decades, you know, after this had all happened of anyone kind of writing in their diaries and saying, you know, wow, it was a bit a bit extreme back then or anything like that?

Linda (44:59):

Unfortunately, it's quite early. Yeah. So we don't tend to have that kind of commentary. I mean, there Jeanval is definitely the most, the contemporary. But really, again, it would be really interesting to see, there was a lot of work done in the 1930s looking back at the witch trials. But before that it's, it's almost like a slightly forgotten piece of our history, but then has been brought to light again. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>.

Perry (45:30):

It's just all fascinating. And the fact that we're such a small island that, but yet we have these historical documents that give us so much information and that actually there is so much scope to finding out more. It's like, it's almost like a little clue and that it's gonna unlock a lot more. And it's just, I just find it, it's blows me away. Really.

Perry (45:49):

Yeah. It's just, it's just such an interesting period of history, you know, and, and there's so much more to uncover that we can't fit into the, the podcast necessarily. I mean, we could take it in all sorts of directions and folklore and what happened before, what happened after. But yeah, it's really interesting about the trials and where we sat with the rest of the world during this kind of time.

Perry (46:11):

Well, thank you so much for your time, Linda. It's been such a pleasure talking to you. And yeah, that's a wrap.

Perry (46:18):

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