Our Queer Channel Islands

How would you feel if your sexuality was illegal? How would you form relationships?  Where would you go and what would you do? Hosts Mel and Perry read between the lines of the LGBTQ+ history in the Channel Islands. They speak to Vic Tanner Davy who'll be sharing some the stories of interesting characters, the challenges they faced and the history of legislation that make life difficult for them.

Vic Tanner Davy is Head of Programmes for Jersey Heritage and ex-CEO of Liberate a charity focussed on equality, diversity and inclusion across the Channel Islands. He has delivered hundreds of training sessions and public speaking engagements on its behalf, educating and engaging with people on the subject of equality, diversity and inclusion.

Support the work of Jersey Heritage in telling the Island's stories by becoming a Member. 

Transcript

Perry (00:00:02):

Welcome to the Jersey Heritage Podcast,

Mel (00:00:05):

The Small Island Big Story Sessions.

Perry (00:00:08):

You are listening to Mel and Perry.

Mel (00:00:11):

In today's episode, we are going to be reading between the lines of the LGBTQ plus history within the Channel Islands.

Perry (00:00:18):

We are going to be speaking to Vic Tanner-Davy, who will be sharing some of the stories of interesting characters, the challenges they faced, and the history of legislation that make life difficult for them.

Mel (00:00:29):

Welcome Vic, to today's episode. I'm actually really excited about this topic, about we're gonna be talking about today, because these are stories that I had never heard before, previous to reading some of the information, the research that you've done. So I'm gonna let you lead some of that. But before we start, it'd be really nice for you to share a little bit about yourself and how you've come to research these stories.

Vic Tanner-Davy (00:00:51):

People might know me in my previous role as the CEO of Liberate, the Equality and diversity charity in Jersey. And I came to that because I am a member of the LGBTQ plus community. And I mean, way before I was CEO of Liberate, I was interested in the history of LGBTQ plus lives. And the reason for that is, I think largely because when you come out as a member of the LGBTQ plus community, it can be quite lonely. If you are black in Jersey or you are Portuguese in Jersey, a member of a minority community, your family are also a member of that minority community. But if you're LGBTQ plus, you don't often have a member of the family who can help you through that, who can say, this was my experience and this is what it's like. And being somebody who's interested in history, my family, if you like, my ancestors are LGBTQ plus people from history. So when I was coming out and when I was exploring that whole part of my identity, going back through history and looking at these stories was really important to me because it told me how you can live, how you can be, how you can exist in the world as an LGBTQ plus person. And so I think for me, it's, it's family. It's like doing your family tree.

Mel (00:02:10):

Oh, that's really beautiful. Yeah. It's really, that makes a lot of sense, for sure. And the history of, of the, of these people, this, this research, I mean, was it difficult to do this or was it easy? Like, where did you find these stories?

Vic Tanner-Davy (00:02:25):

It's not easy to do it because quite often they're hidden, they're hidden histories, and you are quite often reading between the lines. And for, if you're looking for gay male history, then you tend to be looking in the police records, the court records, right? Yeah. Because of course it was, it was a criminal offense, but for women's history. So if you're looking for lesbian history, that's much more difficult because it's, well, for a start, it's women's history, so you've got that added problem to begin with. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And secondly, it wasn't a crime. So it's not in the police records, it's not in the court records. So you are starting really with, with very little, you are lucky if you find a letter or a, you know, some little document that might give you a clue. So I'll give you an example of something I've come across quite recently.

Vic Tanner-Davy (00:03:14):

There was a, a case in 1799 of Sarah Allt and Amelia Dwyer, and they were accused of leading a life of debauchery and scandal. Now it's assumed that this meant prostitution, but what's interesting about the case is that they're ordered to leave the island together. And they were also had previous warnings to go back to their husbands. So I wanna find out more about this one, because it could be that this isn't just about prostitution, or it might not even be about prostitution. It could be that this is a lesbian couple. But without doing more digging and seeing whether there are any documents related to, to these two women, that might give us a clue. We can't really go any further at this point, but it's about finding those little tiny clues that think, well, hang on a minute. Why are these two women associated with one another? What's going on here? Question. And, and seeing whether you can, you can find anything more out about them.

Perry (00:04:09):

And what are some of the, the reasons that, that you think that there are these different attitudes to male homosexuality and lesbianism in the island and, and you know, in Europe and most of the, a lot of the world, why was it outlawed to be a gay man but not a lesbian woman? Well,

Vic Tanner-Davy (00:04:27):

If you go back to the debates, I mean, in the Victorian era, when we had the, the laws brought in, if you go back to the debates around that, there, there is this myth that, that Queen Victoria said that, you know, it, it, it completely impossible. Women didn't do that kind of thing. That's actually a myth. She never said that. But what certainly was the case, and it is documented in terms of the members of parliament and their debate around this, they didn't want women included because it might give women ideas.

Perry (00:04:55):

Right. So they shouldn't even learn about the possibility of the situation. Yes.

Vic Tanner-Davy (00:04:59):

Yeah. Okay. Yes. So that was why male homosexuality is, is criminalized at that point. And women are left out for law. So I think it, there is this, again, you know, it goes back to a lot about women's rights and, and women's history and you know, what women are allowed to do and permitted to do within society and what they're not permitted to do within society. And being a sexual being is something that, you know, society didn't want to acknowledge that women were Mm-Hmm. Form for, you know, centuries that's been the case. So to suggest that lesbianism is a thing means that you are suggesting that women have sexual appetites. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>. And that, of course, was not acceptable centuries. Of

Perry (00:05:41):

Course you don't. But it's interesting you said that, you know, the debates around it becoming illegal in the vic were in the Victorian period. At what point did it become illegal in Jersey? Do we know, and what were people do we know much about before that? What were attitudes to homosexuality

Vic Tanner-Davy (00:05:57):

Before that? Well, if you go back to Greek and Roman times, you have this ability as a man to have a younger man as a, a partner. And that was quite acceptable. It seemed to be a, an initiation for the younger man and being led and taught by the older man. And that was completely normal within Greek and Roman. And that idea continues really until the Victorian era, when we start to get the, the a kind of a different moralistic view of things and the acceptability of a man taking a, a younger man as a, a kind of a partner. It's, it's throughout history you can find it. But as long as that older man is married, then it's not seen as a problem. The problem comes when that man is not married and he's continuing it as a, a lifestyle, as a way of living to, to have a, a male partner.

Vic Tanner-Davy (00:06:52):

And then you start to get problems. And particularly if that man is in any way seen to be disturbing the piece of society in any sort of way, then you will tend to get criminal prosecution. But it's the Victorians that bring in the, the law and they, and they make it the, the sort of the moralistic view of, of how society should be and how we want to shape the people within society. And then you start to get, yeah, the, the the sort of written down version. So in Jersey, we, we had the old customary law around sodomy. And that was in existence for, for centuries before the, the Victorian what was called the lab share amendment came in.

Mel (00:07:39):

And how were the sodomy laws prosecuted? Do we have any examples of that?

Vic Tanner-Davy (00:07:43):

Well, quite often they didn't use the sodomy law. They quite often used gross and decency instead. So in fact, if you're looking at the history going back and trying to trace the cases that were prosecuted under sodomy law, you won't find very many. But it's the gross indecency ones that are quite interesting because they're the ones where you quite often will find particularly gay male incidents being reported. So one example was Jeanmarie Lucas and William Pao who were committed, charged with committing gross in decency in a field at the foot of Fort Region. So what happened was they were discovered by chap called Charles Frederick Zat, and there was a bit of history between Lucas and Azar. They didn't like one another. And so they were taken into the, the court. And 11 people came forward to give evidence against Palo.

Vic Tanner-Davy (00:08:38):

So he wasn't, obviously, wasn't liked terribly much. And the, the, the report from in the JP said that, that the court was crowded, but of course, no women were admitted. So they didn't let women sit, hear the, kill the court case, 'cause they might hear something they shouldn't hear. And at the trial, the prison surgeon Dr. Hind said that he believed that Palo was on of unsound mind. And the reason that he'd formed that impression was because he'd seen Palo dressed partially like a woman with curled hair, powdered face bracelets, et cetera. He had the voice and gate of a woman as well as the mind of a woman. He was not responsible for his acts, and the best place for him was the asylum

Speaker 4 (00:09:19):

God.

Vic Tanner-Davy (00:09:21):

So yeah. So the mere fact of somebody who, you know, was cross-dressing effectively meant that they were of our unsound mind. So that was Palo in their defense. So Palo and Lucas, in their defense said they'd gone to the field so that they could tell Lucas's fortune by cutting cards. So doing, doing a tarot reading and a pack of cards was, was found in Palo's possession. But, you know, it was the fact that they'd chosen a obscure spot and that it was so dark that somebody had to strike a match in order to see them. The attorney general felt that that was, that meant that they were up to no good. They couldn't possibly be reading cards 'cause you can't read the cards if it's dark. And anyway, it took just 10 minutes for the jury to find them guilty. Wow. But they recanted in the case of Palo, who they declared was innocent on the grounds of insanity. So he, he was sent to the asylum and Lucas got six months imprisonment.

Speaker 4 (00:10:20):

That's terrible. Just terrible, isn't it? Yeah. It's awful.

Perry (00:10:23):

There, there are other cases where people have been sent to asylums in Jersey for, for similar things or that, that we can discern.

Vic Tanner-Davy (00:10:30):

I haven't got it, I haven't got any cases, but I'm sure it probably, it probably was the case that that would be a, a choice for, for that sort of crime in those days.

Mel (00:10:41):

Thankfully, there's, you've, you've already done some of this research, so you've already found some of these incredible stories. And what I found really fascinating about your script is that you've called the talk our channel islands. Now that word, when I was a child was a very derogatory word. I remember it being used in horrible ways. However, there is this reclaiming of these words and it's, it'd be really interesting for us to talk about that and how has become something that now is kind of the opposite. It's like a celebration almost, as opposed to something that would be used to attack someone.

Vic Tanner-Davy (00:11:18):

Yeah. I mean, you've got being used in two different ways here. So as a academic discipline is used for studies. So you can have history, literature, et cetera, et cetera. And that's been used for, for, you know, decades. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And it describes the study of things that are not heterosexual and not conforming to gender stereotypes. And that's been something that academics have used for, for a long time. And it's accepted within, you know, universities that that's what that means outside of universities. When we look at the word, yes, you're right, mal, it has been reclaimed, but for some members of the LGBTQ plus community, is still a pejorative term. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. So for older gay men particularly, it's something that, you know, would've been potentially shouted at them on the street or, you know, used in in that sort of a way. So it, it still has those triggering things. So, you know, for anybody listening, it's about making sure that you check with the person concerned as to whether it's something that they would use for themselves and don't just assume that it's okay to use it now. You know, there are people within the lgbtq plus community who wouldn't use it still.

Mel (00:12:31):

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. It's fascinating how how language changes and how intentions are, are measured in terms of how we treat people generally. When you know, someone feels different and it's, there's someone they don't, you can't really identify with or it feels like, dunno kind of, there's this fear around these, these kind of conversations really. Which I think is important that we have them because sometimes they can be really uncomfortable, but as long as we are doing them in respectful ways and we're asking questions for the right reasons, I think it's a really important to have, have the conversation, ask the question, don't be scared to ask.

Perry (00:13:10):

Yeah. And and it's interesting we're touching on the kind of changing of language and the changing of labels and terms, and I know that's something you touch upon in your talk Yeah. That you do, where, you know, looking at lgbtq plus history, people might not have referred to themselves in the way that people might wish to refer to them. Now, looking back, it might have been, they might have even thought about it in a completely different way. And I'm just wondering if you can kind of let us know what you've learned about that kind of thing.

Vic Tanner-Davy (00:13:37):

It's very, it's very easy to pick up a say a letter between two women that expresses an intense emotion within it. And it's very easy for us to label that then as a lesbian couple. And we've gotta be very careful because number one, is it actually a lesbian relationship or is it just a very intense female friendship? Yeah, absolutely. Which it could be. So the first thing is, are you actually reading it correctly that there was a relationship here that we would characterize as lesbian? Now secondly, the word lesbian is a very modern one, relatively in history. So it didn't exist as a term to describe that relationship. So what we used to describe a lesbian relationship, that word today may not necessarily have been a word that they would even have recognized back in the day, the history, the era that you are looking at.

Vic Tanner-Davy (00:14:34):

So we do have to be very careful about how we read the evidence that we find. And it, you know, that, I mean, some of the, the characters that I look out within, within the talk are, you know, I have to question, I have to kind of put a a a warning on the top of it saying, you know, this is how I'm reading it. But it may not have been, you know, that that's, that's how those two, two people characterize that relationship. So yeah, we do have to be a little bit careful when we're looking through, through this. And I think, you know, also, you know, our, our sexuality changes as as, as we age, as we go through life. And you may be looking at a period of someone's life where they were part of the lgbtq plus community, but another period of their life they may not have been. So to characterize them and just label them as gay or lesbian or bisexual, whatever, you know, you may actually be putting a label on them that they wouldn't have recognized at other periods of their life. It just so happens that at that period of their life, you are looking at a piece of evidence that is, that relates to the lgbtq plus community.

Mel (00:15:37):

Yeah. It's, it's a, it's kind of always fascinated me how, how people can become so obsessed with other people's sexual relations and their, what they choose to do in their lives or the connections they choose to have. 'cause Fundamentally that is a very private thing that is like your own thing, that that's, it's no one's business really. So I've always found it really fascinating, this like, obsession with people wanting to know about things that you wouldn't, nobody would've asked a husband and wife about their, what they do in the bedroom or what, you know, like what their aspirations are and what they wanna explore. Like you just wouldn't have done that. Well, some people might have, but it's just, yeah. Do you know what I mean? It's like, really? Mm-Hmm. Why is this because it's unfamiliar or it's just history has taught us that people are just, can be vicious and really mean <laugh>. But I just think it's fascinating how people can be judged based on a sexual preference or, which is such a private thing. It's such a, a personal thing. But let's actually talk about some of the people that you've researched. So in your talk, who is the first person that comes to light?

Vic Tanner-Davy (00:16:46):

So the first person that we look at is Ann Lister. Now Ann Lister is somebody that will be familiar to viewers of the television program. Gentleman Jack. So Ann is end of the 17 hundreds beginning of the 18 hundreds. So we're looking at that period and she wrote a diary, 4 million words.

Mel (00:17:07):

Wow. 4 million words. Wow.

Vic Tanner-Davy (00:17:09):

Yeah. And she started it when she was at school. And it goes all the way through to literally when she, she's sort of in her last days. And her diary is kind of the dead sea scrolls of lesbian literature. Wow. I mean, it is the, the, the kind of the Bible that everybody goes to for this particular period because it is explicit in certain parts. It tells you exactly what she, she did who all the partners that she had. It is so detailed. I mean, it is, a lot of it is also about her business interests and the fact that she was running an estate and, and you know, how, how that mu was managed, et cetera, et cetera. But there's also a lot of detail about her personal life. And one of the relationships that she had was with a widow called Maria Barlow who had been married to major Frederick Barlow who was a Sey man.

Vic Tanner-Davy (00:17:58):

So she was, she was from Guernsey and they, they met in Paris, which was chance meeting. Anne was, was there on holiday. And she bumps into, to Maria and they begin to have a relationship in Paris. So yeah, it's, it's an interesting relationship. I'm not sure that Anne is as into it maybe as Maria is at certain points, <laugh> the, the diary sort of very much about Anne kind of trying to court Maria and, and sort of, you know, do the, the, the, the kind of the initial kind of movements towards the relationship. And then actually when it starts to really kind of heat up, then Anne sort of withdraws and isn't, isn't as interested in, in Maria. Hmm. I think it, you have to remember that in this period of, it was marriage was very much about making a, a business contract.

Vic Tanner-Davy (00:18:53):

It was very much about whether you could make it a good match in terms of social position and also in terms of, of finance. And Anne is no different. That's what she's after. She's after a partner who can give her a social position, but also also money. So that's what she's looking for. And Maria really as a kind of a widow of a, a major, you know, is not somebody who can give her that. So that's why she kind of calls on the relationship after a while. But, you know, the, the kind of the, the sexual, you know, liaison is, is fun for her. You know, it's, it's, and she, and she does that a lot, you know, she kind of has these relationships that are pretty meaningless, but, you know, they're, they're fun for a while and then she gets bored and kind of moves on. Clearly there's

Perry (00:19:38):

A way then that people in the past, even when everything had to be kept quite secretive, that they could signal to one another or at least, you know, work out that they're both interested in similar things. And I'm interested in, do we know how people in Jersey might be doing that? Or, or further afield? I know that we've got kind of code language like Polari and stuff like that in, in the uk And I, I just wonder if there's, if you've managed to do any research on how people signal these interests to each other?

Vic Tanner-Davy (00:20:13):

Well, I mean, in the case of Ann Lister, I mean, she's quite kind of explicit in the diaries as to how she goes about it. I mean, she's very, you know, straight in there and kind of, you know, this is how I'm gonna court this woman Mm-Hmm. And I'm gonna do it in this particular way and this is my strategy for doing it. And I think, you know, she gets away with it because she does it in, in, in, in a clever way. You know, she thinks about it, she strategizes about it. She comes at it from a, a point of view of, this is how I'm gonna do it and I'm gonna come at it this way and I'm gonna keep it secret in this particular way so that it, it happens behind closed doors. And of course, you know, two women in a, in a room together, you know, after dinner or whatever, there's no reason for anybody to think that there's anything going on apart from them chatting.

Vic Tanner-Davy (00:20:58):

But, you know, Anne is strategizing them Mm-Hmm. That, you know, there are going to be other things going on and this is what I'm going to planning to do. So yeah, there were always moments where you could be, and particularly two women alone, you could be without a chaperone, whereas a woman and a man in a room, you potentially would've had a chaperone. So Anne gets away with it. And then for, for men, you know, there were things like Molly houses so, you know, Molly house was a, a house where gay men would meet. So, you know, there were opportunities and of course, men being out in society rather than being in the domestic sphere, you know, there were lots of opportunities to meet and have those VA songs. And

Mel (00:21:40):

Also you can, like, you can pick up when someone's interested, can't you? It's just, that's just like human, it's just so natural to know when someone, if there's like an interest or you're picking up on body language and like, you know, eye contact and there are ways that you can tell Mm-Hmm, <affirmative> I would, I would've thought that it would be quite a natural thing to happen.

Perry (00:21:59):

Yeah. Which must have must have been so difficult back. Yeah. So hard back then when the kinda the whole, the whole town, the whole village was kind of involved in each other's lives. Yeah. You know, they were really kind of, what's the thing you doing next door? You know, keeping tabs on each other. And I think, God, that must have been even, I'm just imagining it could only be even worse in Jersey where the population's tiny and everybody knows everyone, everything about everyone, you know,

Vic Tanner-Davy (00:22:26):

I think in, in terms of, of if you had, if you had money, if you had the ability to do it, then leaving the island, leaving your village is is quite a good, you know, strategy. And France seems to be quite a go-to, for, for people wanting to kind of explore that. Paris is is seen as, you know, sexually liberal, you know, in terms of the uk. So, you know, that's a quite often is is seen as a, as a place to go, you know? Right. Right. Up to sort of, you know, the 1930s, 1940s, you know, the continent is seen as, as somewhere that is more liberal. Somewhere you can get away. But of course you've gotta have the, the means to do that. And a, a lot of the problems with the histories that we've got is that they are middle and upper class histories. You know, we don't have much about the, the lower classes because number one, you know, you've got to have written it down. Yeah. so you need to be able to read and write, but number two, you also need to have the money to be able to kind of have these liaisons. Yeah. in private. And it's much more difficult, I think, if you can't get away from your village to have those liaisons.

Perry (00:23:36):

Yeah. I mean, it is interesting and it's sad that we've lost so much history well, I guess, you know, working class and working class history in general, you know it just doesn't get recorded for, for similar reasons to, you know, other non middle class or upper class. Yeah. History's being recorded. It's a shame we'll never kind of be able to work that out. And I, I wonder if there's certain ways we can look at it, maybe even, I dunno, archeology or looking at the material culture of of, of people in the past. I dunno if you'd ever really be able to see a trace of anything like that, but

Vic Tanner-Davy (00:24:12):

Yeah, I mean, again, you are, you are reading between the lines. Yeah. It's one of those histories where you are, you are looking for the, the clues that are, that are hidden. They're in between the lines of, of the, the recorded history. So yeah. You know, it is, it's more, much more difficult.

Mel (00:24:27):

Do we have any people that lived in Jersey with a similar kind of story? So Anne and Maria, I'm guessing. So Maria's from Guernsey, obviously I know we've got people like Claude Kahu and Marcel Moore, and obviously their story is really well documented in many ways. But do we have a Jersey woman that would've had some, a similar relationship?

Vic Tanner-Davy (00:24:51):

I mean, you've got somebody like Lily Langtry who's really interesting because she is I mean she's defy defying sexual convention anyway. She is leaving the island with her husband Edward Langtry when she gets to the UK and discovers that he's not the man that she thought he was, she makes her way up to London and in London becomes kind of the bell of society, at which point things open up for her. And she realizes that one of the things that she, one of the assets she has as a woman, and particularly a woman who is a bit different from other women. So Lily was brought up, but in, in Jersey, and she was brought up with brothers and she was very much a tomboy. She very much enjoyed that outdoor activity and would, you know, enjoy games and stuff with her brothers.

Vic Tanner-Davy (00:25:42):

And that gave her this sort of kind of hearty, robust outdoorsiness that was not common within Victorian women in particularly, you know, in London society. So she stands out, she, she's, she's different and it makes her attractive. It makes her interesting. And so she begins to realize that this is one of the assets that she can use to kind of advance herself. So she becomes very good at it. And she becomes very good at, you know, seduction and you know, romantic entanglements with, you know people within London society. And that gives her then a, a, a a, a unique selling point. You know, it's her, it's her brand. And she works her way all the way up to the Prince of Wales which is, you know, well documented. You know, it's mistress of the Prince of Wales. But one of the, the things that happens when that relationship begins to fail and the Prince moves on to his next conquest, she looks around and she thinks, well, what do I do now?

Vic Tanner-Davy (00:26:42):

You know, I've, I've kind of that that's it. That's the peak. Mm know where do I go now? And Oscar Wild suggests to her that she should try the stage. So she engages the services of an acting tutor, Henrietta Ho. And Henrietta Hudson was known for her roles on the stage in breaches, parts and breaches. Parts were women dressed as men. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>. And if you look at the photographs of, of Henrietta and, you know, there is certainly a, I mean, I suppose what you would call a sort of a butch nest to her. And Lily describes her as kind of ignatious and, you know, so there's definitely a description there where, you know, there is a, a suggestion that Henrietta herself is also kind of playing with, with gender and, and, you know, the, the gender norms of, of the society that she's in.

Vic Tanner-Davy (00:27:34):

And yeah, Lily and Henrietta spend many hours together, Henrietta tutoring Lily in acting before Lily then kind of does her first performance and, and takes to the stage, which is a huge success. And she's very good. And people, you know, really kind of warmed her and, and see her as, as you know, a a good actress. So she, she has some success. And so her and and Henrietta leave for a tour of America. And it's when she gets to America that we have the, the sort of the newspaper reports that, as I say, this is the bit where you kind of, you start to read between the lines. And there's Lily decides that she quite likes the look of a chap called Freddy Gabbard, who's a American millionaire. And she decides that that might be her next conquest <laugh>. And she begins to kind of throw a cap at, at, at Freddy.

Vic Tanner-Davy (00:28:28):

And Henrietta gets quite upset about this. And there's a little report in the newspaper about Henrietta kind of storming off in a jealous rage back to the uk. And you then sort of reading back through what Lily's written in her own biography. But also then, you know, thinking about the, the relationship and, and the fact that these two women are, are definitely not following the norms for Victorian women reading between the lines, you potentially can see that there could have been a very intense relationship there. Now, whether it was a lesbian relationship, who knows we, you know, whether there was any sex involved, you, you can't necessarily tell, but there was certainly an intense female relationship going on there intense enough for, for Henrietta just kind of storm off at the point at which Lily starts to get interested in, in a, in a chap.

Vic Tanner-Davy (00:29:20):

So that's kind of an example of where we've got a bit of history that is not clear, but it could be that, you know, Lily had had a, a female relationship. It certainly isn't beyond the realms of possibility. She wasn't, you know, she certainly wasn't afraid of, of defying sexual norms. So why would it be such a leap for her to do that, particularly if it gave her a step up, particularly if it gave her something. And Lily was always about looking for the next opportunity. And if Henrietta's price for that opportunity was to have a relationship, I, you know, it's not a huge leap of imagination to say, well, Lily possibly, you know, went there and, you know, was, was happy to do so in order to get that, that next bit of her career started. So that's a kind of an interesting little bit of Lily's history that, you know, people don't really know about.

Mel (00:30:11):

Yeah. I didn't know that about her at all. So that's really eye-opening and actually makes me like her even more to some extent. 'cause I think Lily's an amazing woman, really considering the times that she was around in and, you know, the, she was pretty brave. And she was pretty true to who she was and kind of was very unapologetically herself, which is, is amazing really. But you mentioned Oscar Wild, so clearly she had a, a, a friendship with Oscar. Am I right in saying that

Vic Tanner-Davy (00:30:42):

It would be almost more a relationship with Oscar Wild? Wild definitely paid her court. He was more interested than Lily was, but yeah, he definitely, you know, sent her flowers. The, the pointer picture that we have within the museum was one of the, the, the pictures that he had in his, his own rooms at one point. And he sort of almost had it as an altar. It was almost like a shrine to live a

Mel (00:31:07):

Shrine. Really? Well, yeah. Oh, I didn't know that. Yeah.

Vic Tanner-Davy (00:31:09):

Yeah. No, he was, that's

Mel (00:31:10):

The one of her holding the rose, isn't it? Yes.

Vic Tanner-Davy (00:31:12):

Yeah. He was really infatuated with her at one point, so much so that he slept on her doorstep one night. 'cause You wouldn't let him in

Mel (00:31:22):

Wow. With dedication.

Vic Tanner-Davy (00:31:23):

Yeah. Lily found it a bit irksome. 'cause Lily was interested in, in other chaps at that point. So she was, yeah. Not hugely keen on Oscar kind of being so quite, so visible in terms of his intentions.

Perry (00:31:34):

Understandably so. I think if someone was sleeping on my doorstep without <laugh>, without me wanting them to, I wouldn't be too happy about it, you know?

Mel (00:31:43):

Yeah. That is odd, odd behavior. That is a pretty intense

Perry (00:31:46):

Yeah. Different time. Yeah.

Vic Tanner-Davy (00:31:48):

You know,

Perry (00:31:49):

<Laugh>.

Mel (00:31:50):

Yeah. Yeah. Different time. Indeed.

Speaker 5 (00:31:53):

Research your family history at the Jersey Archive. Dive into our vast online catalog or visit in person. Our expert staff await to guide you on your journey. We are open Monday to Thursday, nine to one, then two till five, subscribe today

Perry (00:32:11):

Day. So, and this is something that might actually be a little bit more complicated to look into than the stuff we've been talking about so far, but do we have any, any kind of people in Jersey that we would now think of as maybe trans or gender non-conforming showing up anywhere in our historical record? Or is that kind of only really started to show more recently?

Vic Tanner-Davy (00:32:35):

Yeah, I mean, the idea that transgender people are a recent phenomenon from 2014 onwards is yeah, complete nonsense. We've always had trans people we haven't always labeled them as transgender. And the idea of medically transitioning wasn't possible until the 1940s. So anybody who is pre 1940s, you are reading their story as a transgender story without that medical record. But definitely we had people who transgressed gender norms, you know, I mean, Lily to a certain extent, you know, transgressed gender norms. So, but I wouldn't suggest that for a moment that she was transgender. But somebody like Victor Barker who was born in St. Clemen and lived the early part of the, the 20th century, he was born Lilia, Valerie Barker and transitioned to live as a man, because for him, that felt right and it felt much more doable in terms of life and, and being able to live as, as yourself.

Vic Tanner-Davy (00:33:50):

So, yeah. Moved to, to the uk as a child, married twice, both marriages were a disaster. The, the husband was abusive and in the end Valerie, as he was then, decided that this couldn't go on and that a change had to be made. And yeah, he transitioned to live as Colonel Victor Barker and very determined to live that kind of military history gentlemanly life. Yeah. went to up to, to Brighton to a hotel there. That was how he, he kind of made the transition from the, from the farm that he'd been working on with, with his husband. And yeah, went to, to the, the hotel in Brighton. And, and at that point made that transition and found that it was very easy. He was accepted, completely accepted from day one as a man.

Vic Tanner-Davy (00:34:54):

And he went to the bar and sat and smoked with the cigars with the gentleman and, you know, completely accepted. And the problem with Victor Barker's life, really the downfall comes because he doesn't actually have enough money to sustain that lifestyle. So he has his aspiration to be this kind of ex-serviceman who's been decorated in the war very, you know well respected but actually can't maintain that life. 'cause Doesn't actually have the money to do so. And that becomes really the kind of the defining story of, of Victor Barker is this desire to kind of find employment, keep employment and to, to therefore have enough money to sustain this lifestyle, which he does, he fails at, he doesn't. And it's at the points at which you get the kind of the pinch point with the money that you'll then intend to get kind of the police involved. And when the police become involved, then potentially there's a criminal offense going on. So the first time that, that Victor gets arrested he's working for the National Fascist Party, ironically, and he gets arrested on a mix up over a gun license and gets sentenced to, to prison. And it's when, of course they're doing the prison inspection as, you know, as he arrives that they realize that this isn't a man they've got in front of them.

Mel (00:36:19):

So hang on. So nobody in in the community knew that he was actually originally a woman. Correct.

Vic Tanner-Davy (00:36:27):

That is

Mel (00:36:27):

Amazing. And, and

Perry (00:36:28):

Presumably he, he wasn't a colonel. No.

Vic Tanner-Davy (00:36:32):

<Laugh>. No.

Perry (00:36:33):

So there, there's a lot <laugh>, there's a lot going on, and he, he joins the fascist pie. Yeah. I guess this brings up an interesting thing in that these people in the past, even if they're, you know, lgbtq plus, they are just people and they can get up to things that we might think, wow, that's about out of order. Like joining the Fascist Party, stuff

Vic Tanner-Davy (00:36:53):

Like that. I, I mean, it was a job. Yeah. I mean, there, I mean, there is nothing in the historical record that suggests that, that Victor held those beliefs. Yeah. it was a job. He was a secretary to the, to the party leader. And yeah, the irony of the fact that they had a trans man within their midst. Yeah.

Mel (00:37:12):

Yeah. That

Vic Tanner-Davy (00:37:12):

Is, if they'd have known, they'd have, you know, had apoplexy probably <laugh>. Yeah.

Mel (00:37:18):

It just fascinates me that it just happened. That that is, it was so easy for him to just do that and that nobody questioned it. But

Vic Tanner-Davy (00:37:24):

Then you are living in a time, you know, you are, you are talking about the, the, the, you know, the early part of the 20th century, you're living in a time where gendered roles are very just defined. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>. So to swap from one gender to the other is relatively easy because you put on the clothes and people immediately assume that you are that gender. Now our, our clothing is much more fluid, you know women can wear trousers and, and do, you know, and, and nobody thinks about that. Nobody thinks, oh, you know, they're, they're changing their gender. Whereas, you know, going back to the thirties and the forties, you know, you are, if you change your, your clothing, your changing your gender very distinctly.

Mel (00:38:10):

Right. So it would've been relatively easy

Vic Tanner-Davy (00:38:12):

Yeah. To yeah, to an extent. You know, I mean obviously there, there are difficulties there as well, of which of course come with the fact that he's not a colonel and he hasn't got the money to sustain that lifestyle. But,

Perry (00:38:23):

But also, I mean, I suppose even back then, well even today to, to sort of brazenly question somebody about that, even if you had suspicions or something would be quite, I guess, risky and insulting, you know?

Vic Tanner-Davy (00:38:38):

Yeah. Potentially. And, you know, how much are you actually really interested Mm-Hmm. You know, enough to be able to kind of drill into somebody and say, are you really who you are? Mm-Hmm. Most of us just, you know, take people on face value and, and, you know, interact with them in that way and, you know, continue to, you know, do business with them or, or whatever. So yeah, I think people probably did the same with Victor. You know, they saw a chap in front of them, so they just interacted as they would with any other chap in front of them.

Mel (00:39:12):

Do we have any photos of him?

Vic Tanner-Davy (00:39:13):

Yes. Where

Mel (00:39:14):

Are they? I've never seen any. And we must find some and put it on our reel to Mm-Hmm.

Vic Tanner-Davy (00:39:18):

Yeah, just Google Victor Barker, and you'll see photographs of Victor.

Mel (00:39:22):

I will absolutely do that. Yeah. It'd be really interesting to see a photo of him. Yeah.

Perry (00:39:26):

That would be, wouldn't it to put up.

Mel (00:39:27):

Yeah. It'd be cool to use it.

Vic Tanner-Davy (00:39:28):

He's quite a port, he's quite a portly chap, you know, wears those kind of tweed suits of, you know, a retired army. You know, colonel, there's one that's a very kind of formal photograph which is of Victor wearing a Dickie bow and with some medals, you know, it's really <laugh>. Yeah.

Perry (00:39:48):

Was, was there much,

Vic Tanner-Davy (00:39:49):

He went the whole hog in terms of actually getting fake medals to go No way.

Perry (00:39:53):

Was there much outcry when he got found out? I mean, not just because of, of being LGBTQ plus, but also because of pretending to have a rank in, in the military. Yeah. The

Vic Tanner-Davy (00:40:03):

Pretending to have a rank in the military wasn't so much of an outcry, but the, but the, the whole story and the press got hold of and it, it was a two-edged sword for Victor. Yes. It gave him a sort of a celebrity which he was then able to use to, to make money later on. But it also meant that his, you know, his private life was no longer his private life, and everybody knew his secret. And I think it was a two-edged sword. And, and certainly, you know, he was towards the end of his life, you know, he was very careful about kind of you know, arrangements for his funeral and, and how he should be buried so that people didn't kind of come and, and find his grave and trash it or, or whatever. So he, yeah, I think he, he was, he saw it as a, as a, you know, it was a, a curse, but it was also a blessing. And the way that the media handled it was very much, it was sort of this is intriguing rather than this is outrageous. It was, it was that sort of reporting.

Perry (00:41:06):

Yeah. And, and do we have any stories then of trans women in Jersey? And, and if we do, when do, when do they start sort of coming about?

Vic Tanner-Davy (00:41:17):

I mean, there's, there's reports. There's reports in the JEP of an individual who who walked through the, you know, king, queen Street wearing a, a women's attire. Now exactly what the women's attire was, we don't know, but somebody was outraged enough to write to the JEP to say that they had seen this man walking through town wearing certainly a skirt. And, you know, they were outraged by it. And, and they should, this person should be arrested. And then very so I think it's this day afterwards, very quickly, somebody immediately writes to defend the individual to say, no, actually it's not a crime. And, you know, people can wear what they want to wear, you know, it only becomes a crime when they commit a crime. Yeah. At which point you need to arrest them. But actually walking through town, you know, dressed in this way is not a crime. So it was interesting that with, even within the island, there was, you know, two sides to, to how people viewed somebody who was transgressing, you know, the, the norms of gender. And there were people who were quick to defend and people who were quick to condemn in the pages of the jp. Just like today,

Perry (00:42:26):

It's really interesting knowing that people, you know, even back then were, there were people that would defend it. And, you know, sort of, it's quite interesting in the history of the movement for, you know, rights that it started so far back, because I think you maybe just one might just imagine that, you know, everybody had, so you, you kind of think of everybody as having the same opinions in the past. And of course they were just as varied as we are today. Yeah,

Vic Tanner-Davy (00:42:54):

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. They're very much so,

Mel (00:42:56):

Yeah. There've been loads of people that didn't wanna conform and didn't agree with social standing or so society as a whole. I mean, that's, yeah, of course, you're totally right. People would've had their own opinions about things and would've spoken up about them.

Vic Tanner-Davy (00:43:08):

Yeah. And, and you know, that having that little letter in the JEP just, you know, demonstrates that, that that was the case and that was in the 1950s.

Perry (00:43:18):

It's interesting. It seems like people weren't maybe as hostile to just, just based on what we're talking about people seem less hostile to a trans man than a, a trans woman. Would you say that has been the case in history? Or do you think they've been thought of as sort of similar phenomenons? I think

Vic Tanner-Davy (00:43:40):

That's probably true. That the idea of a man wanting to become a woman is, is more shocking than the idea of a woman wanting to become a man. And that plays into that whole unconscious bias around, well, it's amazing to be a man, so why wouldn't anybody want to be a man? Whereas, you know, why on earth would anybody want to be a woman? You know, that it plays into that unconscious bias around Yeah. How women are seen within society. So yeah. Men who who want to, to transition are seen as much more shocking. And it's seen as much more of a, and and certainly the tabloid papers, you know, throughout the, the years you know, starting with, with Christine Jorgensen, who was the first trans woman to, to medically transition, she's an American, the way that the media has portrayed trans women has been very much, you know, shock. You know, this person wants to transition. Right. You know, right up to kind of, you know, people like Caitlyn Jenner, you know, that's been the way that the media has, has reported that. It's, it's very much a, you know, as seen as, as something that why would anybody want to do this? So therefore, you know, it, it's a, it's that kind of shock story.

Perry (00:44:54):

Yeah. I mean, it seems like a, a lot's changed, but a lot's almost remained the same kind of makes you realize that we are still in a period where the same kind of conversations and arguments and, and transphobia is, is happening, you know when you, when you talk about the newspaper articles from the fifties and you look at today, and I, I think they're so, they're almost the same arguments, you know?

Vic Tanner-Davy (00:45:21):

Yeah, yeah. No, it, it hasn't changed hugely. And we are still, you know, struggling, you know, with, with that unconscious bias. And yeah, some of the, the arguments that we're seeing today are, are very much still playing into that, that historic Mm-Hmm, yeah. View

Perry (00:45:43):

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Mel (00:46:01):

So there's another interesting story from your talk. 'cause I, I have actually had the pleasure of, I think, hearing a version of this at some stage, you talked about an interesting court case in the 18 hundreds. Ms. Perry and Ms. Woods, who were two school teachers, if I'm right in saying, and that story I found to be quite interesting, so maybe you could talk to us about that.

Vic Tanner-Davy (00:46:27):

Okay. So the, the, so the Perian Woods case was around two school teachers who were accused of improper and criminal conduct by a grandparent of a pupil at their school. And that pupil had told her grandmother that she'd overheard Ms. Period and Ms. Woods making love in their room at night. Now we, I dunno if that's the exact, the exact wording, but to, to that effect. So the grandmother took it upon herself to warn all of the other parents about what was happening. And it resulted in the removal of all the girls from the school. Wow. Which meant that the school closed, and, you know, the teachers were potentially financially and socially ruined, and people would be familiar with the story because it was used by the playwright Lillian Lillian Hellman in 1934 in the play The Children's Hour, which then became the, the, the film starring Audrey Hepburn and Shirley McLean.

Vic Tanner-Davy (00:47:28):

Wow. which I didn't know that. Yeah. So that you, that's the basis of, of that, of that film. So people might be familiar with the story, but the film is slightly different. It has a different ending in reality. What happened is that the Ms. Period, Ms. Woods went to court against the, the grandmother and the court found in favor of the teachers rather than the grandmother. And they were then able to claim financial recompense from, from the grandmother and the judges <laugh>, the judges were, were swayed in their judgment by this unwillingness to believe that women would indulge in sexual activity for their own gratification. So the unconscious bias worked in their favor on in the court case. Yeah. But yeah, they were able to that is wild. Yeah. It's just

Mel (00:48:22):

In, it's actually not, it's just insane <laugh>,

Perry (00:48:25):

It's, it's hard to believe that people would believe that almost, you know, just, just being in the time we are now, to think that you could just say, oh, people wouldn't do that. It's just Well, that women wouldn't do that. Yeah. Does

Mel (00:48:37):

Baffle the old knockin, doesn't it?

Perry (00:48:39):

Yeah. Would you say that jersey then, would you say that it was behind in maybe the rest of, of Europe in accepting L-G-B-T-Q rights? I mean, it was only recently that we, we kind of had gay marriage kind of bought in. 

Vic Tanner-Davy (00:48:57):

Yeah. I mean, we were quite, we were pretty swift off the back of the UK in terms of same, same-sex marriage, but, but when we look at decriminalization of homosexuality then yes, we, we were decades behind. So we didn't decriminalize homosexuality in Jersey and until well, we started the debate in 89 and then 1990. But yeah, it, it, you know, it, it, it was a hot debate, you know, and it was, it was, I think really the, it was down to the AIDS epidemic that we, we actually made that move in Jersey. I think without that, we potentially wouldn't have made the move. But in the 1980s, because it was still illegal in Jersey, what was happening was anybody with HIV or AIDS were having to go to the UK for treatment. Because if you went to your GP with, you know, that that potential disease, then you were effectively outing yourself potentially as gay, and then that would be illegal in Jersey.

Vic Tanner-Davy (00:50:02):

Mm. So you'd then have that problem potentially. So what the many members of the, the states government at the time felt was that to force Islanders to go to the UK for medical treatment was just inhumane. And we should be enabling people to be treated here. And that really was the impetus for, for decriminalizing it. So enabling gay men to, to get treatment here and to be open about the fact that they were gay was, you know, something that many members of the states felt was really important. And that, that was the, the, the kind of the catalyst that started the debate

Mel (00:50:43):

That time, that period in history specifically, I find to be very hard hitting. I remember recently watching a series on, I think it was on iPlayer or Channel Four, dunno if you've seen it. It's called, it's a Sin. Yeah, I know. The one. And I just, the whole thing is just tragic. It was, I remember crying from start to finish especially because I have a gay brother. So it's, you're thinking, you know, in that time where information was totally lacking, you know, you weren't just up against this, this medical kind of tragedy happening, but you're also up against the fact that you are living a secret life away from parents who might be totally against the way you live your life. You know, there's just, it was, so, I, I was quite taken back at how multifaceted people's experiences were at that time.

Mel (00:51:33):

Just this absolute fear of, of what is going on, you know, is this thing contagious? Is it not? But also just taking away so many young lives that were already having to run away from their support network, it just, or lack of support networks. They're creating a community away from home, and then their parents find out that they're sick. And it just, the whole thing is just absolutely horrendous. And I've never really seen it displayed in that way where it's just so nuanced and so multifaceted. And I was kind of felt really angry at myself for not knowing more information about that specifically the eighties and that period. Yeah. So, just, just outrageous, isn't it? It's disgusting. It's disgusting to think that people were treated in that way and the fear of all of it.

Vic Tanner-Davy (00:52:25):

Yeah. And I, and I think that, that, that was reflected in Jersey. So, you know, what, what you see on the, the, you know, the dramatization, it's a sin is not vastly different from the Jersey experience. And I think you are, you are right to highlight the fact that it was, it was a period that was it was a period that was kind of conflicted. You know, you had a, a great burgeoning of the, of the gay scene and gay culture within the, the media. So, you know, we, we were beginning to see movies and television plays and, and you know, theater that was, you know, very celebrate celebratory of gay culture. Mm-Hmm.

Mel (00:53:05):

American. Yeah. But at the

Vic Tanner-Davy (00:53:05):

Same time, there was this massive fear of, of, you know HIV and aids that was happening within the community. So it was a very conflicted time. It was a time of, you know, great joy, but it was a time of great tragedy as well. Yeah. 

Mel (00:53:20):

But you can feel like, I've never watched a series where it feels like this is palpable. Like this feels like this is what it would've been like at that time. And for me watching it, I, I felt like such a personal relationship with the story, because that could have been one of my family members in the eighties if we were born, you know, 20 years before. And I have no idea how I would've coped with that. You know, being, having my own brother in that situation would've been tragic. So, I don't know, it just felt, it just really brought it, it really honed into me that, that that j Yeah. J this is exactly how people would've experienced this here.

Vic Tanner-Davy (00:53:59):

I mean, in terms of the 1980s in Jersey, the, the sort of, the, the main focus for the scene was the, was the bar called The Side Door which was in Seton Place. And it was behind the main bar. And it was literally a side door. And the, the bouncer, the barman was Cliff. And everybody will remember Cliff <laugh>, a very distinctive look, had a shaved head and, and gold hooped earrings, nice <laugh>. And he, he had a little, little door within the, the main door, and he'd slide it across and it, and check that you, you know, you looked like you were not gonna cause trouble. And if you looked like you were, you know, gonna be a problem for the gay community, you wouldn't be let in. Go on Cliff. Yeah. he was a, a amazing character within the community, so there was this place that you could go.

Vic Tanner-Davy (00:54:52):

And, you know, many people from that era will, will fondly remember it as being a place of safety, A place where they could be themselves. Yeah. A place where they could meet people enjoy, you know, a, a night out without any fear that they were gonna kind of run into some trouble. And yeah, you know, members of the community will also remember people who are no longer with us from that time, you know, and who were at the side door. But yeah, unfortunately, you know got HIV and aids and so therefore, you know, at that time there was no cure. There was nothing that you could do. And, you know, people lost their lives. So yeah, it, you know, it was, it was a time that was conflicted. Certainly.

Mel (00:55:41):

It's just, I think what, what's the saddest thing for me is just that, you know, it's bad enough that people are dying left, right, and center from something that nobody seems to have had any knowledge of at the time, but it was the shame that went with it. As soon as you have aids, it's like everyone knows how you got it or what, what, who you really are. And actually you are, right, you know, at a time where things are starting to emerge and become slightly more accepted. But it's a joyous time, you know, especially, right. The disco movement and the celebr, the celebration of, of freedom of expression. And then you just get walloped with this absolute monster of a disease that nobody has any knowledge of. And then as soon as you get it, you're screwed. And then the shame that goes with it, and yeah, just absolutely tragic.

Vic Tanner-Davy (00:56:31):

So that's why, you know, I think the politicians in Jersey recognized that. And there were, you know, there were some very brave people as well working within charities. So the Jersey a's Relief group, you know, Daphne Minha, who headed that up, you know, she, she will tell you that they had threats. So, you know their car window was smashed. They had to the, the charities headquarters had to be secret. So if people needed help you, you kind of, you knew about it through the underground, through the grapevine. They couldn't publicize where you could go because they'd just get, they'd get, you know, kind of problems with people, you know, doing nasty things. So yeah, so there were people like that who were providing support and providing help and, you know, giving people advice about where they should go and you know, how they should get help, because of course, at that stage, the health service didn't provide anything.

Vic Tanner-Davy (00:57:27):

So, you know, it was, it was very much down to kind of charities to, to be at the cutting edge of, of what was possible and what, what help and support there was out there. So people like that were, were really key to, to making sure that our community was supported over here. And also pressing for political change. So making sure that the, you know, the states were aware of the problems that the community was facing, and then for the states members to, to take a stand. So people like Betty Brook who was very vocal in terms of, of changing the law. Betty was a, a Methodist lay preacher. And I think the, you know, the idea that the church and the lgbtq plus community are at odds is a, is an interesting one because actually when you look back at the history of the, the decriminalization of homosexuality, whether it's in the UK or whether it's over here, in fact, members of the church community are, are some of the members who are the most vocal about decriminalizing it because they see the kind of the damage on, on the ground that's being done to, to human beings and their Christian faith enables them to say, this isn't right.

Vic Tanner-Davy (00:58:39):

Wow. You know, we need to change this. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>. So yeah, the, the, you know, the history of, of our path to decriminalization is a, is a different one from the uk, but yeah, you know, it took some debates and it took some arguing but in the end, you know, the vote to actually decriminalize was, you know, it was decisive. And the, the naysayers were, were definitely put down in the debates as, and, you know, you can go back and look through the, the kind of the, the transcripts of the debates. And some of the attitudes that were on display within the states chamber are, you know, quite, yeah, well, we would find horrific these days that people could actually stand up in the States and say these things, but they did. And yeah, no, you know, that's in the transcripts.

Mel (00:59:26):

So obviously we talked a lot about the 1980s. Do we have anyone that has like, memories of what it was like to be a, a, you know, a member of the L-G-B-T-Q community then?

Vic Tanner-Davy (00:59:39):

Yeah, so I mean, I've spoken to, to Jeremy Reed, who is he's a well-known poet Jersey boy. And he works in London now. And he's worked with people like Mark Armond, the pop producer and and singer. And, and he's written books and poetry, very prolific in terms of the, the work that he puts out there. And he told me that he, he remembers being in Jersey in the, the seventies and eighties. And I mean, what he said to me was that his worst terror and the psychological scars have left me damaged for life, was parked cars, lights off, waiting for me on the Baggo Road, close to where I lived at Baggo Manor Avenue. Only by pre sighting the vehicle and running at it from behind with the intention of getting the registration number, could I scare off what amounted to sexual terrorism. Even today, I freeze at night if a car pulls up parallel and stops.

Mel (01:00:40):

Oh man, that's awful.

Vic Tanner-Davy (01:00:41):

Yeah. and Jeremy was very flamboyant. So he was somebody who was very obviously part of the lgbtq plus community, always dressed in a, in a manner that was, you know, what you would kind of think of artistic or, or, you know somebody who was part of that c you know, community of, of people. So he was an obvious target. You know, he was different in Jersey. And it, you know, that kind of firsthand testimony is, is really important to gather because it tells us a bit about what the, the social you know society of the time what the social acceptability of, of lgbtq plus people was at the time. So yeah. So people like Jeremy and, and their memories are, are really important.

Mel (01:01:29):

Yeah. Well, I'm glad that he has felt he could share that. 'cause Again, that's a really kind of pivotal piece of information. Like, you know, that experience is horrendous, but it's, it's, it's, it's good for us to know about it because people were tormented.

Vic Tanner-Davy (01:01:48):

Yeah. And the police you know, at the time in the, the 1980s you know, they, they played their part in that persecution. Yeah.

Mel (01:01:56):

They fed into it.

Vic Tanner-Davy (01:01:58):

So, you know, they would deliberately entrap gay men. So they'd hang around the, the Weybridge toilets and deliberately entrap them. And you know, there, there's a famous case of a jersey deputy who was all over the JEP who'd got caught in exactly that position. And yeah, you know, the, the police were not above using those kind of tactics to terrorize and, and scare the, the LGBTQ plus community. Fortunately, things have changed, and the police now have a very good relationship with the LGBTQ plus community and will come to pride and, you know, have a stall of pride. And, you know, the, the turnaround has been amazing by, by them. But in the 1980s it was yeah, quite a different story.

Perry (01:02:47):

Ha ha have the police come out and, and apologized and acknowledged any, any of this kind of, I,

Vic Tanner-Davy (01:02:52):

There hasn't been an official government of jersey acknowledgement of the, you know, the, the prosecutions, if you like, that that happened in the past. The UK did do that. We haven't done that. It's, it's not as easy as it sounds because as I say, if you are if you are pardoning people under the, the sodomy law, that's one thing. But most of the prosecutions haven't under the gross indecency law. And then you, you've gotta unpick which of the prosecutions under the gross indecency law were to do with homosexuality. So it's not as easy as it sounds to pardon people, but what the government can do is they can do an apology, which is a slightly different thing. It's not an official pardon, but it is an apology. So there would have to be quite a lot of research for a pardon to happen. But, but an apology is, is not beyond the realms of possibility. And I think, you know, that it will happen. And, and I think it will happen fairly, you know, within sort of the next few years. I don't think it, it's something that the, the government particularly are, you know, looking to, you know, stop or, or not do. So yeah, I think it, it, it's something that definitely will, will, we will see.

Perry (01:04:07):

Well, you mentioned the side door earlier. Have there been any other places kind of like the side door not necessarily nightclubs and stuff, but kind of areas and places in the community that have been sort of safe spaces Yeah. Safe spaces and, and places for, for gay people to be themselves? Yeah,

Vic Tanner-Davy (01:04:31):

I mean the sort of the, I mean, obviously being beach culture, you know, the, the kind of the, there are always, you know, little rock rocky kind of bays and stuff that have been known to the, to the gay community as being, you know, a place where you might meet somebody, you know, you can hang out there <laugh>. And they, you know, you might find that there are other like-minded individuals. So there's been, you know, like that sort of thing quite often retail because it's a quite often about clothing about what you wear. Yeah. Expression. Yeah. yeah. So sometimes you'll find that there's a, a particular shop in town that's known to gay men say as being, you know, a place where you can go and you can, you know meet like-minded individuals. So yeah, there are other, other spaces as well as, as nightclubs. And, you know, in terms of the nightclub history, after the side door, there was jbs, which was underneath the Opera house. So where the box office of the Opera House is now, that was a, that was a bar which Cliff ran as well. So Cliff moved from the side door to run that. And then there was Cosmopolitan next to the Grant Hotel.

Mel (01:05:37):

I remember the Cosmopolitan, I

Perry (01:05:38):

Remember it as well. Yeah,

Vic Tanner-Davy (01:05:39):

Yeah, yeah. You see, you are, you are of a generation, remember that <laugh>. Yeah.

Mel (01:05:42):

Yeah, I

Vic Tanner-Davy (01:05:43):

Do remember. So, yeah, so the over the, over time, you know, there's, there's been different clubs and pubs that have have, you know, been welcoming. But yeah. You know, if you, if you know somebody who knows somebody who can tell you, you know, where you might go to and that's how it works, you know, and it's still, to this day it actually

Mel (01:06:02):

Works, right? Yeah. It's not different. Yeah, yeah.

Vic Tanner-Davy (01:06:04):

Works

Mel (01:06:04):

Like, about sense, kind of very much the same Now, you know, when I go on holiday, you know, if me and my brother are going on a trip, he's always looking for where the gay bars and like, I remember we went to Dubrovnik and I mean, we've been to many gay bars, many amazing spaces. But this one, I remember distinctly this one particular one in Dubrovnik was in like the back alley of nowhere. And it was tiny. It was probably not that, not as, it was probably about the size of our podcast suite, which is, which is very small people <laugh>. But yeah, it was tiny. And I couldn't quite believe that a city like Dubrovnik, which is like buzzing, wouldn't have a bigger gay club. And even Andre was like, what? This is crazy. Why isn't it bigger? But yeah, I just thought, wow, it's just literally in an alley.

Vic Tanner-Davy (01:06:49):

Yeah. I mean, we get, we get inquire or we, we, when I was at the liberate, we got inquiries regarding, you know, where do I go to, you know, where's the gay bar in Jersey? And unfortunately the answer is there isn't one. Yeah, we don't have a gay bar in Jersey. We haven't had one for a couple of decades now. And I think that there's a, there's a number of reasons for that. I mean, one, one reason is that gay bars are closing all over the uk. Because people have stopped meeting people in person in pubs. They meet people on the internet using apps. So that has killed, you know gay club culture to a, a large extent. So they're closing anyway in the uk. And secondly, we are a small population within a small population. Mm. So trying to make a space like that pay financially is extremely difficult. 'cause You've got a very small population. I mean, the lgbtq plus population is probably 10% of, of any given population at best. And so you, you've got 10% of, of our island who, you know, are individuals and may or may not want to go to pubs. Yeah,

Mel (01:07:57):

Yeah. It's not everybody. Yeah. They might not even wanna go clubbing, right? Yeah. They might not even wanna go and stand in bar, but yeah, that's true. I mean,

Perry (01:08:01):

Pubs are having trouble across the board as well with, with kind of costs going up and yeah. It's just not a really good time for hospitality, is it? Yeah.

Mel (01:08:10):

It's an interesting yeah. Yeah. That whole, it's an interesting kind of thing, isn't it, really?

Perry (01:08:17):

Would you say, would you say there's a lot of work to be done looking in the archives or doing historical research for, for people out there to try and read between the lines, as you say?

Vic Tanner-Davy (01:08:27):

Yeah, there's definitely definitely work to be done. And, and you know, one of the things that liberated doing is they're trying to kind of capture as much of the history that is currently, you know, within people's heads so that the, the history that is alive in, in memory and trying to capture that as much as possible. So if anybody has got any members of the family who are, you know, maybe older members of the family now mm-Hmm. Who are part of the LGBTQ plus community, please come and tell your stories to the archives and please, you know, or, or tell your story to liberate and, you know, together we can, we can capture that history. But yeah, it's really important that it's written down because otherwise is hidden. It is this, this idea of reading between the lines. Yeah. So trying to capture, you know, what's in people's heads and memories is, is really important for this community.

Perry (01:09:20):

Yeah. I think recording these, these oral histories is, is such a good thing to do for people to, to listen back to eventually. I think sometimes people think, oh, well it's not that interesting. It's just that's just what it was like, you know, in the eighties or whatever. But it is, it is really interesting. And sometimes, like getting people to understand that is, you know, is quite difficult.

Vic Tanner-Davy (01:09:42):

There's also an element of the, the people that you're trying to capture this history from. So if you're trying to capture it from the older generation who may be in their sort of seventies and eighties, they have spent most of their adult life hiding their identity because it was illegal. Yeah. So to try and get them to talk about this now is actually really difficult because they have spent their entire lives being private about it and, and keeping it hidden. So there, it, it's a very delicate process in terms of getting that history because you've got to recognize that these people don't necessarily always want to talk about it because that's not how they've lived. And I think, you know, there is work to do around how, you know, you, you capture that, that community, you know, my generation and and younger not gonna have a problem with talking about it. 'cause We've always been out and able to talk about it. It's never been illegal, but for, yeah, the generation that lived, you know, older than me it's, it's gonna be much more of a, a, a difficult conversation with them. Mm-Hmm.

Mel (01:10:50):

But it's so important to have these stories because it helps us, you know, as either historians or history lovers or, you know, Jersey heritage in general to build a better picture of what the communities look like throughout the ages, throughout time, because it just helps us to map things better. And, you know, it's, it's, it's easy for us to look at court records and, and, and look at documents that are, you know, obviously very one-sided, but capturing an em an emotion and capturing someone's experience is a completely different thing. It's, it's an intangible piece of history that we need to start really looking after and preserving just as well as we preserve any object.

Vic Tanner-Davy (01:11:29):

Yeah. It's the, it's the social side of it that we, we don't know. That's the bit that that gets missed from, you know, the court records tell you that this person was caught and this was the crime they were accused of, but it doesn't tell you how they lived before that point. It doesn't tell you how other people within the lgbtq plus community lived. And it may be that they were living more openly, more, much freer lives. You know, Ann Lister is, is an example of somebody who got what she wanted and lived her life pretty openly without too much problem. So were other people also doing the same? And it was only when they committed a socially unacceptable or they were too, too public about their identity or, you know, something happened. There was a trigger point where they then got slapped with this particular crime.

Vic Tanner-Davy (01:12:18):

But actually, you know, had they not done that particular thing, they might have been able to carry on living, you know, a relatively free life. So yeah, it's that social bit that we don't really have the evidence for that would be really good to try and try and capture. But we can't go unfortunately, you know, we can't go back, we can't go back in history and get the 18 hundreds and, you know, at the early part of the, the 19 hundreds. But we can try and capture what people today remember and that would be really good to try and do that.

Mel (01:12:56):

So thank you so much for coming to speak to us today, Vic. It's been an absolutely eye-opener to hear about these stories, but we would just like to emphasize that if anyone has any, you know, relate a relative or someone in your family that has amazing stories or would like to share them with Jersey Heritage, there is the opportunity to come and do it in a very safe space. If you were to want to share your stories, they, there is like a caveat that we can ask the archive to not release this story until a certain amount of time. There are, we can do things completely your way. It's just a case of coming forward and sharing your history and your experience because we wanna hear it.

Perry (01:13:41):

Yeah. Thanks vs. It's been really

Vic Tanner-Davy (01:13:43):

Interesting. You are very welcome.

Perry (01:13:46):

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