Jersey’s Diaspora Community with Dr Mariana Pereira

In this episode, hosts Mel and Perry are joined by Dr. Mariana Pereira, who is a post-doctoral research associate at the University of York. Mariana conducts her studies at the Heritage for Global Challenges Research Centre, and during our conversation, we will be diving into the complexities of migration and how the movement of people shapes our community landscape and traditions. 
 
Dr Pereira is a researcher with Abundant Futures, a project commissioned by ArtHouse Jersey which explores food justice by highlighting knowledge and experiences of migrant communities and native populations. She will conduct interviews with project participants, gathering their perspectives on what it means to belong in a place. Dr Perreira asks 'what it means to be local', and in order to integrate with the existing community and become part of Island life, you don't need to leave your cultural identity behind.

 Follow Dr. Pereira’s work with Abundant Futures on ArtHouse Jersey’s website (https://www.arthousejersey.je/our-work/abundant-futures)

Take a closer look at the work of Jersey Heritage, a Jersey registered charity on our website.
 
A diaspora refers to a population that is scattered across regions separate from its geographic place of origin.

A diaspora refers to a population that is scattered across regions separate from its geographic place of origin

Transcript

Jersey Heritage Podcast: Small Island, Big Story Sessions
Jersey’s Diaspora Community with Dr Mariana Perreira
Perry (00:00:02):
Welcome to the Jersey Heritage Podcast,
Mel (00:00:05):
The Small Island Big Story Sessions.
Perry (00:00:08):
You are listening to Mellon Perry.
Mel (00:00:11):
In today's episode, I'm joined by Dr. Mariana Perreira, who is a post-doctoral research associate at the University of York. Mariana conducts her studies at the Heritage for Global Challenges Research Centre, and during our conversation, we will be diving into the complexities of migration and how the movement of people shapes our community landscape and traditions. So this is your first time in Jersey? Yes,
Mariana (00:00:35):
It is, Yes
Mel (00:00:36):
And what do you think of the island so far?
Mariana (00:00:39):
Do you know? It's, it's quite amazing because I've never really heard about it, with the exception of the role it played during the Second World War. Oh,
Mel (00:00:46):
Yes,
Mariana (00:00:47):
Of course. And that, you know, quite dramatic story, right? It's the story of people, right? The story of survival, and what I, what intrigued me the most since I've arrived, and it's, you know, it's been since Monday, <laugh> that I've arrived and it's, it's how similar it is to my hometown.
Mel (00:01:04):
So where is your hometown?
Mariana (00:01:05):
So maybe I should start by, by kind of explaining a little bit who I am to explain what my connection to perhaps Jersey might be. So I come from the Portuguese descendant community of Macau in China. Very cool. And we were Portugal's last colony. Now we've transited to becoming a region of China. And so we understand what it means to be under the influence and, and to negotiate with majority countries. So with countries that have a long history and are quite powerful in the world. My community composes 1% of the population. And since the handover of Macau back to China, it has become a tax haven because it has an amazing gambling industry. Right. And so Macau makes I think well before COVID, it made three times more revenue than Las Vegas.
Mel (00:02:00):
Wow.
Mariana (00:02:01):
And so we understand what tax havens are. It's a really small city. It's much smaller than Jersey. It's composed of a peninsula city with two small islands, which now are connected with all the 41 casinos in the middle. And each casino requires around 5,000 people. So we had, we don't know. We did not have that population. Yeah, absolutely. And so they all came in the past 20 years more than half percent of the population has arrived in Macau. And they don't really know anything about Macau. Of course, they're temporary workers. They come with a contract. It's very difficult to become a citizen. You can try to become a resident again by working for, for several years and staying.
Mel (00:02:43):
This sounds very similar to the Jersey model. Right. So Absolutely.
Mariana (00:02:46):
Absolutely.
Mel (00:02:47):
It's obviously casinos aside. Yes. Las Vegas aside, I know <laugh>, we, that this the whole tax haven thing. Yeah. Obviously trying to, you know, it's really difficult to become a resident. Very difficult. And there are lots of, of legislations and things in place that Absolutely. That really impede lots of lots of progression in that area. Absolutely. Which makes life very difficult here for someone that's migrating to the island. So, really interesting ties that Yes. I had no idea that they were so similar. Yeah, they're
Mariana (00:03:12):
Very similar. And I, and I think some, some of the complexities we see that are similar are, for example, the, the so-called local community. Right. And Macau, it's the same. We descend from generations of people moving into, you know, the territory the same as here. And of course we recognize each other by saying, okay, how long has your family been here? And we ask, who are your parents? Yeah. <Laugh> to know who, who the families are. That
Mel (00:03:38):
Sounds really funny. Yeah.
Mariana (00:03:39):
Right. You know, who are your parents? And then immediately I know by the surname how long people have been there, and whether I'm dealing with someone who I might perceive as local. Right. You know, who is local? What is that? What does
Mel (00:03:51):
It mean? What does it mean? What
Mariana (00:03:52):
Does it mean? And this is a minority population that suddenly feels like they're dealing with communities who come. And it's wonderful that they come, but they don't know anything about us. And so what does it mean to then be local when you're not recognized as local? And then on the other hand, you have a very vibrant migrant community. Very diverse. And it's multicultural. It's not intercultural. And I think sometimes it happens here as well.
Mel (00:04:18):
That's very interesting.
Mariana (00:04:20):
Where you see the communities are very vibrant within themselves, but we need them to interact.
Mel (00:04:26):
What about, and what about the integration?
Mariana (00:04:27):
And that's the thing. Absolutely. And I think, you know, that's another point. Like what, what is to integrate? What does it mean? And I think there's perhaps a misconception that for you to integrate somewhere, you have to leave your past behind and your identity and who you are. But that's not true. That has never been true. Yeah, absolutely. Right. So the question is, how do you contribute to a locality? And what can you bring, what do you bring and how can you sustain your traditions, your connections, right. Your communities and at the same time contribute to where you are
Mel (00:05:01):
And how do you create something different? I always find that. Absolutely. I did an, an interesting study when I was, I, I studied here in Jersey, I did a social science degree in part of Wonderful. My dissertation was about how migrant communities integrate into Jersey, into an, into island life. Yeah. With specific in kind of specific thought process in that made, and people who are from an island come to another island. And thinking about integration in that sense. And I always found that by the end of my study, in my research, it was about integration. Like you've just, you've just put that so eloquently about it's not, it's not about leaving anything behind. Yeah. But it's actually about creating something new Yes. And creating a new tradition. Absolutely. And something that's a a completely kind of new thought process about who I am as a person or who someone else could be based on where they've come from and how they've come to be here in Jersey.
Mariana (00:05:50):
No, absolutely. And then there's, there's something else quite interesting, and this then connects a bit to what I've been doing as a researcher in the past few years. I've just completed my PhD at Cambridge on the topic of diasporas mm-hmm <affirmative>. And I've asked the question, when do we stop being a diaspora? When do we stop being the descendants of someone else's migration? 'cause Many of us have not necessarily migrated Yeah. But we're perceived as the son or daughter of someone who has
Mel (00:06:16):
Yeah. And where does that lineage kind of like start Exactly. And why does it start there and
Mariana (00:06:20):
Why? And so I think what I've proposed is perhaps we're asking questions that don't encompass the complexity of the situation. So instead of saying, you know, when does it end? Perhaps the question is, when do you want to be it? When do you manifest it? And so I think a lot of our identities, we wear multiple, we wear multiple hats. Mm-Hmm. And so sometimes that identity and connection we have with the legacies of migration of our family and of our communities, we interact and engage with them in particular contexts. And that's when we are those descendants. But outside of that context, we can be somewhere else where our profession, we are what we love. We are who we love. Yeah. Right. And we don't always have to be that one identity. Right. And so this perception that we're migrants, period, that doesn't, it really doesn't reflect the complexities of, of human beings. Right. And
Mel (00:07:12):
The multipli and doesn't serve the community. Does it? Absolutely not. Doesn't serve, you know, we all have to live together and, and, and we should all feel welcome. Yes. And I think you are, you are right in saying that, you know, where does Yeah. You're so right in saying where does that begin and where does that end? Yeah. Because we're supposed to feel like we are one. Yeah. But there are multilayers to all those things.
Mariana (00:07:35):
There are. And, and I think that's, that's where Jersey becomes quite an interesting space, right. Because you have multiple generations, which of course, naturally want to be perceived and recognized through what they've done to the community. Mm. And of course, naturally, those who have been here the longest, perhaps have contributed and have shaped the island differently from those who have arrived, you know, three years ago, six years ago. It doesn't mean people can't contribute as impactfully. Of course they can. Yeah. but I, I also understand a little bit the sense of being lost and, and not being recognized by being from here. But also that sense of suddenly when you come here, you're just the migrant. And that in your entire identity, everything you can be is suddenly under that umbrella term. So how can we unpack it? How can we create spaces of confluence Right.
Mariana (00:08:28):
Of intersection of interaction? Because I think what adaptation to a new place means is how do you gain the local knowledge that you feel familiar with the place? And I think that's what makes you local and in multiple ways, right? Is when you know the island, you arrive here and you know where to get the bus, you know where to buy tickets, you know, which stop it is. You don't have to, you know, hear the advertisement. You have the local knowledge. Yeah. Now, of course, this local knowledge sometimes needs to be recognized by others. And I think that's where things become a bit more tricky, because some people don't want to recognize others as local. Precisely. Because they're not seen as, oh, you don't have that multi-generational connection to the island. But you can be local through the knowledge you have of the place and the experiences you have in them, right. In these multiple spaces and the communities of contact you have, you know, the interactions. We are very social beings and our location and our local knowledge is built through the interactions we have. So if we can expand that interaction and make it more intercultural, I think the island would have so much to gain from that. Oh,
Mel (00:09:37):
Absolutely. I think that's again, a really interesting point. Yeah. So what brings you to Jersey Mariana? Like how, how have you come to be here?
Mariana (00:09:45):
So I came here I was invited by Art House Jersey mm-hmm <affirmative>. Under the Project Abundant Futures. I've been researching diaspora, heritage and, and cultural heritage for a very long time. So I sit within the field of heritage studies and I'm interested in understanding how is it that the past is used and given significance. Now bias. We want that past, we want to forget it. How do we engage with it? And my focus has been movement of people migration, diasporas, that intergenerational connection to a movement. We sometimes didn't go through, but we retain in our families and we connect to it through food, through music, through the language. So I'm interested in that, through that invitation, we are thinking of perhaps doing some project. And I came here this week to understand, you know, what are the dynamics? Where could I help? Where could we do something interesting that really brings up the stories of people, the stories of movement, but also the stories of heritage.
Mariana (00:10:50):
And I think that's a little bit we were talking about this before, right? That these podcasts that you're creating are so important. 'cause I didn't know anything about Jersey, and I've listened to the podcast and I suddenly know much more and I'm much more comfortable in understanding what Jerry a is. Oh, amazing. You know, what Bacha is, right? The the instrument and Yeah. The festivities and the relationship to the different, you know, seasons and what people create, and then going to the museum and just trying to see how, how people have navigated the island and the surrounding waters. And so I think in that sense, there's a lot that comes out. And you can see there's so many rich stories to be told, wanting to be told. And so I think that's a little bit what we're trying to see is whether in the future we can have something interesting that tells the stories, not just of the different migrant communities, but tells them to each other.
Mariana (00:11:43):
Can we put the communities in dialogue alongside, of course the various local generations? And can we create a space where we know about each others a bit more? Because, 'cause I think that's a little bit, the feeling is that we are all here living in small pockets, and we rarely engage with each other. And we have so much in common. You know, there's so many festivities in common. For example, the 24th of June, I heard here the mid-summer festiv, so many community celebrated. So where are these multiplicities, right? Can we come together and celebrate it alongside each other and learning from each other? So I, I think there's a lot of intersections Yeah. To be explored. And so, let's see.
Mel (00:12:22):
And we're incredibly lucky to have someone like you with your experience, to come to Jersey and already see all these multifaceted elements to our community. You're already seeing that Jersey is very, very interesting in its makeup, in terms of our culture, our language, our heritage, our communities. I feel very lucky that we are going, that you are going to be running this project. 'cause I think it's really needed. Yeah. And it's really important because Jersey's historic kind of landscape in terms of migration. I mean, we've, we've had migration from the very beginning. Absolutely. Absolutely. And I think we are not dissimilar to the rest of the world in that sense that, you know, movement of people is just something that we always do. You know, humans are very nomadic. We're just constantly on the move, constantly looking for more opportunities, whether it's socially, economically politically mm-hmm <affirmative>. There is lots of reasons why people move. So in terms of your, your background and, and, and things, projects that you've researched in the past, how, how do you think you'll be able to bring some of your experience into, into researching Jersey as an island? Well
Mariana (00:13:26):
What I've done in the past is focus a lot on festivities. Lovely. and how is it that movement shapes the way we celebrate the most important events we have? And what are the negotiations of, of identity, of belonging, of affinity we create with each other through these moments in time, throughout the year. Right. These festivities. And so I've, so I mentioned the 24th of June precisely because I, I studied the 24th of June, right. The mid-summer and all the different interpretations that then will lead to, for example, in my tradit St. John's mm-hmm <affirmative>. Celebration. And what I try to understand is how is it that certain events are shaped by the departure of people to other places, but also the arrival of people. And when we take our festivities with us, our traditions, our knowledge of a particular geography, that geography changes the way we then deal with a different geography. You know, so how, how is it that we bring our knowledge from other spaces with us, we adapt them to new places. Can we use that knowledge or not? And then what happens when we go back? Is there even a going back, we don't know Right. Places change so much. So sometimes we associate ourselves with a place that doesn't necessarily exist anymore and kept in our minds
Mel (00:14:48):
Yeah. Like the nostalgia of a
Mariana (00:14:50):
Place. Yes. No, absolutely. And so I've been exploring a little bit how this works. And I've also been exploring what is it that in our minds composes the notion of migrant. You know, why is it that some people are migrants or are seen as migrants and others are not? And then what happens when you have that intergenerational negotiation of relationships to a migratory past? And so I think what Jersey has that's quite interesting is not only all of these components, but also very rich history and very complex history of being in the middle, being in between Britain, right. And then the United Kingdom, and then France and all of these connections and being in, in the middle of a lot of maritime roots. And so I think that's makes Jersey an interesting space to understand the complexities of identity making Yeah. Of belonging. And so I'm hoping that by looking at, for instance, certain expressions, a particular type of heritage, the way it is built, it is understood, it is performed.
Mariana (00:15:58):
We could perhaps then unpack a little bit those layers that form jersey, right. The multiple jerseys that exist. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Within this space. So I'm hoping that that experience of doing ethnographic work, of going in depth into people's stories and the way they talk about their spaces, their identities, I will be able to bring out some of these stories here and then see in what ways we can best contribute to helping people be more connected to this space, but also feel more welcomed, feel more local, and show the diversity of what jersey is in terms of identity. Right. And in terms of how do you build locality. Right. The multiple parishes, which are so important. And I understand a bit of that. I mean, Macau, where I come from, it's a very small place, and it can take five minutes between each parish. But yet if I'm from this parish <laugh>, I have a particular, you know, name I'm known under a particular kind of, you know, context. And you are from that one. Wow. I understand that. You know,
Mel (00:17:00):
It's completely blowing my mind the similarities between Jersey Macau. That is insane.
Mariana (00:17:05):
I think small places have a very complex, dynamic dynamic because of that. Right. They're small. And so any difference is huge.
Mel (00:17:13):
Absolutely.
Mariana (00:17:14):
Right. And your small locality, that's your center, that's your place of reference. But when we build identity and we try to belong place is not the only thing that we reference in our construction of identity. And I think that's what the studies of diasporas have shown, is that sometimes we reference people mm-hmm. As our center. Yes. Not necessarily place. Yeah. And sometimes we reference a particular moment in time, and that's why we sometimes feel displaced because that moment and that place in that moment in time no longer exists. And we're like, how is it that I'm not familiar with this anymore and I haven't moved the place changed so much. So that can also happen. And we create a lot of, you know, the sense of belonging also comes from affinity with others. Right. The social connections. And when those connections change are not recognized, we sometimes feel like we're not part of it anymore. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And so it's, it's not just the place, but of course the place manifests a lot of these Yeah. Relationships. And
Mel (00:18:19):
What's really interesting, you mentioned before how, you know, sometimes when people move from their hometown to somewhere new, sometimes they either bring things with them and they adapt those things to the new space. So for example, bringing a, along a tradition, and that's very much intangible cultural heritage. So thinking about what, what is it that you are bringing that you would wanna pass down to your, to the next generation, to your children and to your children's children? So interestingly, I noticed, and this is just an observation from my own heritage, my own background. 'cause My parents and my family are all from Madeira mm-hmm <affirmative>. And it's interesting, when I go to Madeira, the connection to the seascape is very different to my connection to Jersey seascape because in Madeira there's a little bit of fear around the ocean. There's a fear around, you know, you don't mess around with the sea.
Mel (00:19:07):
It's treacherous, it's deep, it's cold, it's dangerous. And when, then you come to Jersey, I see my people, they, they have a different relationship with the ocean here in Jersey, even though our oceans are also, currents are very intense, are, our tidal range is very, very, very extensive. But the relationship with the sea here is a completely different one. Even though you do, you know, we bring along traditions like winkle picking and lier picking, and, you know, which we call LaPage in Madeira. So like there is all these kind of synchronicities Yeah. But the relationship is different. Yep. It's almost like they're bringing, they're, they're not, it's not necessarily they're bringing the fear with them. It's just them. They're more aware of that from where they've come from. Yeah. And then when they've come to settle here in Jersey, but you see they relax.
Mel (00:19:54):
There's like a relaxation of, oh, we can actually swim here. Yeah. Oh, this is safe to do this here. It's like there is a very different relationship. Yes. And it's, I find that really interesting because islanders are known as people of the sea. Yeah. Like, we love the sea, but not everyone loves the sea. No. Not every islander wants to jump into the water. No. So it's interesting when you mention that I, that's the first thing that came into my mind of how, how does that relate as an example to my kind of experience mm-hmm <affirmative>. So that is really, really interesting.
Mariana (00:20:23):
No, it is. And I think that's, you've touched upon something really interesting, which is of course, spaces are different. Yes. They are both islands surrounded by water, but they also sit within very different geopolitical spaces Absolutely. With very different geopolitical mm-hmm <affirmative>. Inheritances. Right. And, and ways of perceiving the world. And I know that, for example, a lot of communities and families from Mada left before the dictatorship ended. Yeah. You know, and so that's a different notion. And the ocean of course represents something completely different. Also, the relationships that you create being part of what is seen as Portugal, even though I think Mada of course has its own identity and its absolutely own
Mel (00:21:04):
Geography.
Mariana (00:21:05):
Yes. And its own space. But you have some influences from that continental Portugal mm-hmm <affirmative>. That are, that are strong and those influences you bring with you. And suddenly you come here, and this is a completely different geopolitical context, right? Mm-Hmm <affirmative>. Where you have an influence from a completely different empire, from the legacies of the British empire, the of the French Empire. So here it's a different space. So I, I understand that the same bodies of water can get some completely different meanings. Yeah, absolutely. Right. And it, because they're cultural constructions, the ocean is more than just a cultural construction, but it is also a relationship we build with it. Yeah. And I do think, of course, islands don't necessarily mean you are an outward looking space. You can also, you can also be very inward. And I, that's why I think the parishes here play such a big role. Mm. The parishes look at the land, they're land-based. Right. It's not that you identify with the piece of rock in the middle of the ocean. You say, that's my part of the ocean. You don't really, you can, but you, most people won't say that. They will say, this is my parish. So it's a land-based identity. Yeah. That then looks inward in that sense, but also outward because you are an island and you have to look outward.
Mel (00:22:19):
And what I find really fascinating about our parish system, and obviously let me know if, if there's another kind of synchronicity to the cow <laugh>. But another thing that I really feel that's really prominent with our parish system is yes, the land is super important. Oh, a hundred percent. I also find that family dynamics Oh yeah. Also, so like you have like the currys of st one's, or you have the lobbies of ville, you have a real iden you feel like families are like a root in each parish. And in terms of our, you know, old school jersey families. Yeah. Yeah. That obviously go back however many generations. I wonder if maybe in like, I don't know, another 500 years time, if we are gonna have different kind of relationships with our parishes to families, different par different families. It's interesting to see how that, that will change whether it does at all or if we're still using the same narrative of, you know, these old traditional families from these different places.
Mel (00:23:13):
'Cause You know, when we think about heritage, and I, I felt this really strongly when I was a child. I was born here in Jersey, so my family migrated to the island in the late sixties, early seventies. Okay. Okay. So I was born and raised here. So Jersey has always been my home of course. And obviously I was raised in a family in an environment where the Portuguese traditions were very strong. Yeah. you know, Portuguese language has been spoken in my family since I can remember. Mm-Hmm <affirmative>. As has Spanish. 'cause My mom was raised in Madrid. Oh, wonderful. So my mom has a very different identity in, in, in our family, in our family setting, as does my auntie. So it's really interesting how, you know, we're trying really hard to try and encourage more of our migrant communities to engage with our heritage.
Mel (00:24:00):
Absolutely. To make, to make sure that they feel like it's also for them and that it feels like it's theirs. But that is really tricky when you don't feel like you are represented in the heritage. Mm-Hmm. So recently I, I did some research for a project that we are, we're doing Project Luso, which is coming up which is all about kind of investigating and, and exploring what the, the relationship to Jersey is in terms of being a Portuguese migrant or being from Portuguese place. So Madeira, Portugal. Mm-Hmm <affirmative>. Mm-Hmm <affirmative>. Or even one of the colonies wherever. Yeah. Who knows. Yeah. And I actually, in my research, I found some registration cards from Portuguese people that had migrated to the island in like the 1920s. Yeah. Wow. And I was seeing these Portuguese faces on these cards with Portuguese names in Jersey having done whatever they were doing, whether they were working, whether they were married to somebody here. And it completely blew my mind to find. Yeah.
Mariana (00:24:59):
Why did you not know
Mel (00:24:59):
About it before? How did I not know about this before? Yeah. I just, it was completely, it was such an eyeopening experience. Oh, amazing. It made me feel so connected to Jersey. Yeah. Even though I was born here. Mm. And my schooling was here. Mm. And I don't know any different to Jersey really. Yeah. Like, I wasn't, I've never lived in Madeira. Yeah. I've never lived in Portugal. Yeah. So I don't know what that is like, but to see that in our historic story meant a lot to me.
Mariana (00:25:27):
Absolutely.
Mel (00:25:28):
I basically, that's a very long-winded way of asking like, <laugh>, what, how do you think that we could be better at welcoming our migrant community in the historic heritage space? Well, where does it actually have to start?
Mariana (00:25:40):
Hmm. Oh, that's a really nice question. Well, I think you touched upon really important points, and I'm going to kind of fish them.
Mel (00:25:47):
Yeah. Dissect it.
Mariana (00:25:47):
Dissect it. And I think one of the first things I, I really enjoyed about your reflection was, you know, these relationships between parishes and families. Right. And I think parishes are family <laugh>, you know, in the end it's all about family based Right. Relationship and whether they will change. Yes. I mean, most probably they will. And maybe we don't even need 500 years usually changes in social studies. I'm not saying this should be taken as the norm mm-hmm <affirmative>. But overall there tends to be a change every three generations because the older generation remembers a particular space they were brought up in and they lived in. Then you have the, their children who know a little bit of about that past, but already in a different space. And then their grandchildren, you know, just remember it as history. And so that's already a different jersey. That's already a different parish.
Mariana (00:26:37):
Yeah. Now, of course, the narratives that are told they can change. Of course they can change. Right. Some of them are quite strongly ingrained. I'm not saying it is easy to change, but also why do we just have one narrative? You can have multiple narratives and most probably you have multiple narratives. But some of them gain more visibility, for example, because they become official. Or someone who is seen as an important person in the community tells it. And of course everyone else is, you know, will respect that. And so there are power dynamics at play. Mm-Hmm <affirmative>. Social dynamics at play that sometimes put an emphasis on one narrative. And the others which coexist and are there sometimes get forgotten. And that's the story. You know, those migrants who came in the 1920s, I'm pretty sure there have been Portuguese here far, far longer than that.
Mariana (00:27:26):
Yeah. For sure. Right. that's the thing that you said. It's eye-opening. And I think a lot of us, when we move somewhere, we want to see stories similar to ours. It's important. It's so important. It's important. We, and that idea of being represented, being, and then seeing someone who's similar to us having some sort of success or doing it, you know, having their lives and being successful and living happily, that inspires us to also say, we can do it. I can do it. And I think what what happens is, of course, because some narratives become more official, more important, they do hide the others and they are forgotten in some cases. And in this case, that's why archiving is important. Institutional memory is important. The memory of families is crucial. Yeah, absolutely. You know, but sadly, we do live in a space where some narratives will be more visible.
Mariana (00:28:24):
And I think what is important is, you know, let's bring those back. Those stories you can relate to. And that's why those projects, like the Project Luso is crucial. And I think all of the communities should have similar projects, but not just stay within themselves. Right. You know, it's important to dig deeply and then spread it horizontally. Yeah. And show, because I think many of us can also learn from others because sometimes it's not just about the fact that they were from Portugal. I might see them myself in someone else who, for example, had a certain education or had a certain passion. Right. Or had a certain identity. And it doesn't matter where they're from. So I think these interconnections and finding that representation is important. And the more diversity we have, the more we will be able to find similarities with others who show us.
Mariana (00:29:14):
We can also do it and perhaps understand, okay, what have they done? And that might not have been very successful. Very good. We can try something else. That's why history is important. It's important to know the stories of communities because people have tried things that we're trying now, and some of them have failed and it was difficult. And so perhaps we can be inspired by what has happened and try something different so that we're not just in a cycle of, you know, doing the same thing all over again. And I think in, in terms of welcoming people, again, these stories of diversity are crucial. Mm-Hmm. Because if we only see our stories, we will think only we are the ones able to make it, which is not true. It has never been. Right. And so where are the other stories that are as equally important?
Mariana (00:30:00):
And they will not overshadow the existing ones. Of course not. They are adding to that diversity. And it's showing how resistant and resilient it is because it's, it's similar to agriculture, right. Monocultures are not resilient. We need diversity, we need rotation. And that is what makes it resilient. And so we need diversity of stories, and we need diversity of communities. And that diversity is what together creates a resilient space. Because if something happens when one of these communities, the others can help. You know, there are interconnections we can learn from each other. And so I, I completely think yes. No, let's bring out those stories. Where are the other mes? Yeah. Right. Where is the other eye? Because I'm pretty sure a lot of communities here have actually a longer history of movement to Jersey. And so why are those stories not visible? Where are they?
Mariana (00:30:54):
And maybe we will find even some communities who were here before and now they're not. And so what happened to them? Hmm. Where are those legacies, those traces of those presences. Right. Those past presences. And I think, you know, these, these projects are crucial, but it's the same another context. You've talked about language multilingualism is a, is such a powerful tool. And the fact that, you know, our parents sometimes have to decide which languages to teach us because it's not perceived to be important. And of course, we want our children to be successful. And so sometimes we decide, okay, I'm not gonna teach you my language that you can fit in better. Yeah.
Mel (00:31:33):
Lots of sacrifices. And they, a lot of sacrifices. I have experienced that first time. Very emotional. Yeah. It's very much
Mariana (00:31:39):
What's so emotional. It's so difficult. But we can have multiple languages, you know, we don't need to lose something of ourselves in order to be successful somewhere else. Mm-Hmm. Where are the context of youth? They might be different. That's fine. Right.
Mel (00:31:55):
Yeah. That's so interesting. I you just, again, reminding me of, of something I saw on the internet, you know, once there was a, an article celebrating how one of the royal family's children could speak. They were multilingual. Yeah. They could speak three languages. And I was reading this article thinking, yeah. But most migrant children, children from immigrant families can speak 2, 3, 4. Exactly. Sometimes five languages, depending on where their movements have been, whether they've moved many times. Yep. And those, those children aren't celebrated. But this one regal child is celebrated because, you know, it's, it's interesting to see how that skill, like that ability to, to learn. Because when you learn a language, you learn a culture. Yes, you do. You have your, the window is open to like the soul of a culture. It's, it's a very different thing to experience a people based on how they communicate. Yes. And it's really interesting to see how in our society we see some languages as elite or languages that are really, really kind of noble. They're, they're like registered, like, you know, could go on and on, but, and then you have these other languages that aren't seen to be as important. Yes. But every language is important.
Mariana (00:33:06):
Every language is important. And I think, again, another really interesting bridge that I felt with Macau and, and coming here to Jersey was with the language of Jerry a mm-hmm <affirmative>. Right. And I think we have a Portuguese Creole in Macau.
Mel (00:33:21):
No way.
Mariana (00:33:22):
It's called Makita
Mel (00:33:24):
Mata.
Mariana (00:33:24):
That's cool. So for, for example, in, in Portuguese, when you say, you know, how do is like <inaudible>? We say Vo
Mel (00:33:32):
Wow.
Mariana (00:33:33):
And this language shows the more than you know, almost 500 years, the Portuguese were in China and in Asia and this language, my language has words from different Indian languages where the Portuguese were in India, and then from Malacca, and then from Macau, you see the roots languages tell the story of Journeys. Absolutely. And so Jerry a tells the story of Jersey, but why isn't it, you know, more present? And I love that there's a, a couple of really interesting projects. So Abundant Futures is doing this, it's trying to bring, you know, it's called Native Tongues, right? Mm-Hmm <affirmative>. It's bringing together the older generations of Jere speakers with migrant communities, and actually children who are from Jersey and speak multiple languages and are learning je
Mel (00:34:23):
Yeah. So interesting. Right. And, and how can that then marry into a different language in itself? Completely. They could create another, another Patois of, of Jerry eight with their Yeah. It's, I really think that's a beautiful thing. Yeah. I really love seeing that kind of absolutely. Well, migration of things, it's really beautiful to think about the possibilities of where that could go.
Mariana (00:34:43):
Yes. And you know, languages are not fixed. They're No, they're never
Mel (00:34:46):
Fixed.
Mariana (00:34:47):
They're fluid. And it's fine if you add, if you take words out, you know, of course if you're afraid you're losing something, record register it, it's fine. But allow for that confluence of multiplicity. And multilingualism again, is one of the biggest tools a place like Jersey can have because it allows you then to interact with different communities. And especially if it is a very economically different space, the more languages, you know, the more spaces you can engage with. Absolutely. Absolutely. And another really important thing is, I, I don't think languages should be valued or evaluated as it based on their usefulness. And that's something we hear a lot is like, why would you learn that language? You can't use it. No one speaks it. Mm-Hmm. You know, you can't use it to communicate. Languages are not just used for communication. They're forms of identity. Absolutely.
Mariana (00:35:36):
And so some languages are there to show who you are. You don't have to speak it 'cause you know, you don't have to use it on a daily basis. But sometimes, you know one or two words. And that helps you to identify with the community. It's not because it's useful, it's because it is part of who you are. It's, it's a belonging, it's a statement of belonging. And I think Jerry a is that it's a statement of the history of Jersey of belonging. And so are the multiple languages that we all speak as descendants of someone who moved, you know, and in this case, of course, you can know Portuguese and English and French and Jerry a why wouldn't you be able to, because they play different roles. Some of them are going to be used to communicate and to get you a job. And that's fine. And then others are gonna help you to speak with your grandmother, with your family. Yeah. You know, and to reconnect to those roots. And others are gonna be used to socialize. Yeah. You can have multiple uses for languages. It's not just about, you know communicating. Others are used because again, it's an identity statement. It's a symbol. And so, you know, why wouldn't you have them
Mel (00:36:45):
Seeking a unique getaway? Why not book a Jersey Heritage Holiday? Let from coastal towers, cozy cottages and country apartments, we have something for everyone. Head over to our website and check availability today, Jersey Heritage members get a discount. So sign up now. Oh, Mariana, where were you when I was at school? <Laugh>, it would've been so nice to have had someone like you being really positive and, and embracing these elements. Because when I was a child, it just wasn't cool to speak different languages. But,
Mariana (00:37:20):
You know,
Mel (00:37:21):
It just wasn't a thing. It's like
Mariana (00:37:22):
We went through the same, and I think that's perhaps comes a little bit with our colonial history, you know, because Portugal, I think forgot we were a colony, but I grew up during a colonial period mm-hmm. Learning a history of a, of a country I haven't really been to Yeah. Of agriculture. I haven't seen, you know, Macau doesn't have train stations, and yet we had to learn trains and train stations and the rivers of Portugal. So our language is at the moment extremely endangered. Mm-Hmm <affirmative>. Because in the 1960s, Portugal thought, that's not Portuguese. Why would you speak it? And so it, we weren't able to speak it. Mm. And in three generations, again, those three generations, we almost lost it. So now I think in the year 2000, there was an estimate of how many speakers there are. And of course, this is a big discussion.
Mariana (00:38:12):
What is to be a speaker? And I think we have to be very careful at saying there are X amount of speakers. Because what is it? Is it that, you know, two lang, two words, a sentence? What is it? Yeah, yeah, yeah. But what happened was in the year 2000, it was said that my language was spoken by 50 people we're more than that, right? Mm-Hmm <affirmative>. But that really turns you down. You just think, oh my God, we're no one. And then the responsibility of carrying in your shoulders a language that almost no one speaks, is like you are going to be blamed by letting it
Mel (00:38:42):
Die. Drift away. Yeah.
Mariana (00:38:43):
Yeah. Yeah. But languages come up. They come back, they're reinvented, they're reused, you know? So I don't think we should be made responsible for them changing, because languages also reflect historical context. In our case, we are holding tight to it. <Laugh>
Mel (00:39:01):
<Laugh>, as you should.
Mariana (00:39:03):
But we were never encouraged to use it. So, you know, no one told me we should speak it. No one even told me I should speak Chinese. And now I'm a part of China and I barely understand and grasp the language that my community speaks, because we were encouraged to speak Portuguese. Right. And so, no, I also grew up in a context where multilingualism was there, but not appreciated. Yeah. And now it's a bit more, and the way we've kept our language is because we do theater. Amazing. And so our language is mostly kept by a group. It's called.
Mariana (00:39:39):
And the theater group performs every year. And that's how new words are brought up. And that's how dialogues are kept. And that's how we intervene in society. And Michelle, we're still here, we're still speaking it. So again, it's not a language of communication. It's an expressions of what society's going through. And we use it to say, okay, this is what happened in the last year, and let's make some comedy out of it. And so, no, sadly, a lot of places don't appreciate and don't value multilingualism. And I think because there's a bit of fear that it'll tint, if I can even say this a local identity. And this is, this is insane in my opinion, because identity is multiple. Yeah. Right. And Jersey identity, if we can even talk about that, I would say more identities. There are multiple, right? And so when you put one to the fourth, you know, to the front end say, oh, this means you only speak English or French.
Mariana (00:40:34):
You are missing out on all the history that actually this island has been in case of a jersey. Right. And absolutely. And it's the same with with Macau. You know, so we need to bring back these stories and we need to bring back these tongues, this soundscape that you almost don't hear when you come to a place. It's like, you know, when you go here in the streets, who do you hear? What are the sounds that you hear? Where are the multiple language speakers? Where are they? 'cause That is what Jersey is about. It's this, this multiplicity, this diversity of spaces. And I think that's what composes the dynamics of the island, right. And its history.
Mel (00:41:13):
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Everything is, everything you're saying is, so, it's like music to my ears, really. 'cause Yeah. 'cause growing up here was very really beautiful. In many ways. I can't discredit my experience living in Jersey 'cause it has been very, very good to me. And it's been very, very good to my family. However, I felt like growing up, I had a major identity crisis. Like, especially when I came into being, becoming a teenager and finding my place in what does it mean to be absolutely a migrant from a migrant from an immigrant community? Like what Absolutely. Where do I sit in this country, in this, in this island, in this country, in, you know, 'cause I'd go back to, I'd go back, I'd go to Portugal to visit my grandparents, and I was known as za the little English girl. That's very difficult
Mariana (00:42:00):
To deal with that. Yeah.
Mel (00:42:01):
And I, I found it quite difficult sometimes to communicate because my Portuguese was incredibly rusty. Yeah. I never really speak Portuguese really at all. Yeah. You know, at school I speak English. Yeah, of course. I go home and I speak to my parents in English. They speak to me in Portuguese, but I speak to them in English. Yeah. So it's like this really multi, and it's really interesting how I feel a very, like, like I'm a different person when I speak Portuguese,
Mariana (00:42:24):
Of course. We all are <laugh>
Mel (00:42:25):
My <laugh> my identity is totally different. Yeah. It's, I'm a different person. It's like I'm putting on a different hat.
Mariana (00:42:30):
Yeah, absolutely. We are. And that's fine. Because we're not just one. Right.
Mel (00:42:34):
It's multiple. Yeah. But I think, you know, it's, I think people, I think sometimes people forget that there is there is lots of kind of nuances to that.
Mariana (00:42:42):
Absolutely. Absolutely. And, and it is difficult. And I think many of us are put into boxes and people want us to be a checklist.
Mel (00:42:51):
Exactly. Right.
Mariana (00:42:52):
And you have to fulfill those. And when we don't, you feel you don't belong. You, you are excluded. There's a lot of microaggressions. Right. You know, this happens. Well, yeah, that's true. And so, especially when you're growing up in a space that, you know, it's multicultural and yet you're, you're almost, yeah, exactly. Exactly. You're almost contained when this bubble that this is you, and then you go out of it. And of course like that, that notion of, oh, you know, your, that's a very emotionally difficult word to deal with. Right. Because you're not just, you know, you might not even be that. 'cause And
Mel (00:43:24):
Then it's just, I'm just like, well, hang on a second. I'm <laugh>, I'm English when I'm here. Yeah. And then when I'm in Jersey, I'm Portuguese, I'm where I'm just like, well, but
Mariana (00:43:34):
That's a crisis. Oh. But that's, but, but, you know, and I think that's, that's something that we know nowadays that we navigate something called, you know, Don Nation states. Right. What we have are countries, but this construction, this, this notion of country is recent. It's 200 years old, 250, something like that. It didn't exist before mm-hmm <affirmative>. And so this idea that for you to be, for example, Portuguese, you need to be born in a geography that's perceived as Portugal, which can change of course. But you know, you have to speak the official language that sometimes is just chosen. For instance, we could speak modern dish, which, and that would be Portuguese. Right. But no, in theory you have to speak the Portuguese. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then you have to eat specific types of food, behave in specific ways. These associations, they were made. People decided, okay, no, you wear this traditional costume and I will recognize you from being from this space and you will speak the language. These things aren't fixed. Hmm. But nowadays they're seen as almost unchangeable, almost crucial. But they're not. And many of the times, our passports don't even say who we are. They are
Mel (00:44:43):
Documents. Yeah. Yeah.
Mariana (00:44:44):
Right. And so we can be, when I go to Portugal, I'm the one from Macau. And when I'm in Macau and the Portuguese descendant, okay, fine. That's okay. But I think that that's the important thing here is allow for that multiplicity of identities. Because we don't have to be the same every year. We're not. And so how do we make people, especially not migrant communities who come here, how can we create a space where they're comfortable and being those multiple identities so that when I introduce myself to you, I will say one thing, and that is fine. Mm-Hmm <affirmative>. Because it will help us to familiarize ourselves with each other to connect. And I can say something very different to you. Right. We can say different things and it's still me. Yeah,
Mel (00:45:28):
Yeah,
Mariana (00:45:28):
Yeah. It is still us. So how do we create spaces where the multiple identities we have are understood and we know that they can play the role that they should play, and we can gain the confidence to say, yes, I can be that here because I know who I am. And it's fine. If you call me the English, I'm like, okay, that's fine. Because I'm, you know, because it won't destabilize me. But in a lot of cases, it creates this massive, you know, you feel like you've lost all confidence of who you are and where do you belong and why is it that we have to belong to one specific place where the identity has to coincide with it. We don't. And I think we need to open these narratives. We need to open these spaces to allow for us to have multiple nationalities, multiple belongings, and still be us.
Mel (00:46:16):
Absolutely. And I was, you know, having a look at the the, the, the 2021 channel Island census for Jersey, just to get an idea of, you know, because I, I know in my mind how many different nationalities we have here, because I have friends that are from South Africa. Yeah. I have friends that are from Poland. Yeah. I have friends that are Romanian. Mm-Hmm. So it's like, I know because I, I'm having these interactions and Absolutely I've created relationships with people from these minority groups. Yeah. But actually the list is extensive. You know, we have obviously a massive group are from Portugal and Madeira. Yeah. And that stems a long way back. You know, our, our, our Polish community has been here for a very long time also. Yes, yes. Absolutely. And it's a big, big chunk of, of our island identity. Yeah. But we also have, you know, we have Irish, we have French, we have people from all over the uk. We have Romanian people, south Africans, people from India, the Philippines, Germany, Zimbabwe, Venezuela, all Australia, Australia, Thailand. I mean, the list is, and that's, and that's, there's more than that. And I just, in Jersey has, in the last, I'd say 20 years or so mm-hmm <affirmative>. Mm-Hmm <affirmative>. Maybe even less than that. I've, I've noticed that jersey's diversity in our community has really changed. I've
Mariana (00:47:29):
Heard of
Mel (00:47:30):
That. And it's, it's so beautiful to see such an eclectic mix of people from all over the world. Absolutely. It's, you know, when I was growing up, it was mainly lots of European changes. Okay. So it's obviously lots of Europe, you know, lots of Eastern European people coming over. Yeah. But it's really shifted in that, you know, we have a, a massive community from the Caribbean Yes. With us at the moment to help in our hospitality industry, which is a wonderful thing. Yes. Of course. It's however, I am conscious that like, as part of coming to an island like jersey that is, is is obviously known as a wealthy island. Yes. It is. When you're immigrating to, to jersey and, you know, there are lots of things. There are lots, there's lots of legislation and policy that kind of ties these people to contracts of employment. Yes.
Mariana (00:48:14):
It does.
Mel (00:48:15):
That then causes issues with where they live. Oh. And they are tied to pretty crummy living conditions tied to an employer that that's it. That is like a package. Yeah, exactly. It's a package deal. Right. Exactly. Exactly. You come over to work here and you live here. Yeah. And then there's no, they don't have a say in, in, in what happens from there.
Mariana (00:48:34):
Yeah. And they almost don't live, leave that
Mel (00:48:36):
Bubble. Right. And it's a really tricky situation to be put in. And Absolutely. That model hasn't really changed from when my grandparents, my great grandparents came to Jersey. And it's, it to me it's it's quite sad to see those patterns repeat themselves. Yes.
Mariana (00:48:51):
Absolutely.
Mel (00:48:51):
It's, it's a tricky dynamic because obviously we, we want to encourage people coming to Jersey because we need, we need people to come here to work. Of course. It's, it's crucial. It's essential. However, I think it's really important that we are mindful that these things are still happening mm-hmm <affirmative>. And that those things need to change. Yes. And I know that there is a lot of work being done in the, in the sidelines to try and make these things better for our community of people that come to Jersey. Absolutely. because we live in 2024 and things need to change and it's not right to treat people like they are disposable. No, absolutely not. And so I wondered in terms of your experience of your research, like how often do you see these patterns play out?
Mariana (00:49:35):
Well I think they play out more than we think in, in, in the diversity of places. And I think because there is a slight disconnect. And I think it's it's a fake disconnect. It's an imagined one between economy and wealth and social health, let's call it that. These things are completely interconnected. So of course you can have people who come here for two years and we really need to improve the conditions of living. Absolutely. Yeah. Absolutely. I mean, no question about that. Uhhuh <affirmative>. So you can have people who come here for two years, but they can still be part of a space that makes them feel like they belong. And when you create those emotional connections, you give much more. So in terms of working and in terms of fault, if you want to measure it, which I don't think should be the main aspect here, but if you want to measure it, we give much more when we feel like we belong and that the space is ours.
Mel (00:50:29):
Absolutely.
Mariana (00:50:30):
Completely. And so why not value people and you know, nurture that relationship. You can have. It doesn't matter if you're here for two years, you can be here for two years and be from here for two years and you'll give so much more. You will contribute. 'cause You're feeling like you're contributing to your own happiness and to your own, you know, space. It doesn't matter if you're going to leave, if you're made to feel like you belong, you are absolutely going to do much better. You're going to be happier. And this notion of the social health of like interacting with others and being part of a community makes us much more integrated in terms of, you know, the local economy in terms of contributing. And until, you know, countries realize this, we are going to have the same repetition of patterns, sadly. Mm-Hmm <affirmative>. But I think it doesn't matter how long, what matters is, do you feel connected?
Mariana (00:51:25):
Because if you feel connected, not only will you give much more, you will keep those connections when you go somewhere else. And word of mouth is still one of the best ways we migrate. Yeah. Because we're like, oh, this is a great place. Go there. Yeah. They do things of course. And so if I stay here for two years in conditions that, you know, make me feel like I belong and that I'm a part of it, and then I know I'll go back, I will tell people, this was great. Go and contribute. Mm. You know, and then the connections can be there. They can be strong and you can have international relations in ways that in other places you won't be able to do. Mm. I think Jersey has that potential,
Mel (00:52:04):
I think. Right. You are so right. Because the, the, the mass immigration that came from Madeira was really, was very much word of mouth. Yeah. My dad came here because his friend said, come to Jersey. It's great. The scene is amazing. Like you, you'll find work easily. There's parties every night. Like obviously my dad came over and he was like a young buck. He was only like 22, I think. Oh my goodness. Yeah. So he was like, I think younger actually. Wow. He was really, really young. So that's what he was, he was coming for work and he was coming for fun. Of course he was coming for opportunity. Yes. But I think what's really, really powerful about what you're saying is, is this, this thought pattern around there needs to be some sort of, em, there needs to be a lot of empathy. Completely in what Completely.
Mel (00:52:44):
And I think empathy is what will change the dynamic of how Yes. Our migrant communities are treated. Yes. So, you know, it's, it's very easy to discriminate against people when you have no understanding of, of what their situation is Yeah. And how they're being treated. Yeah. However, if you have an understanding of actually this person's come here, they've come for a better opportunity. They're looking for work or whatever reason they've come to Jersey, it doesn't always have to be for work. Yeah. Yep. But thinking about, these are our mentality around people coming to an island will, or coming, well, specifically to Jersey, will only change. Mm-Hmm. Mm-Hmm <affirmative>. Mm-Hmm. When you become more empathetic to understanding their situation. Absolutely. And I think there needs to be visibility about how people are, are, are treated. Oh, yes, of course. But also why policy is in place. Of course.
Mel (00:53:29):
Why is this legislation here? Who is it protecting? Exactly. Why is it protecting? Who is it not protecting? Yes. And why this is it not protecting these people. Yes. And, and I think if, if Jersey had more visibility, like are our, you know, our working class people, if they knew about how we were being treated. Yeah. And I don't say we as in myself, I mean people here. Of course then that is maybe how that mentality will change around being more welcoming of course. Being more accepting. Absolutely. Being more understanding of people's situations because Absolutely. You might only be here for a summer. Yes. There is a strong sense in Jersey of, of otherness. Yeah. And I think the smaller the community, the more prominent that is. Absolutely. Yes. You feel it really strongly. For example, when you hop on the boat and you go tos Yeah.
Mel (00:54:17):
You get tos and the locals are instantly like, who is this? Exactly. <laugh>, who are you? Why are you here? Please tell me you're not staying for long. Yes. But then you have other people that are really welcoming that are like, oh, where, you know, which channel island have you come from? Yeah, exactly. There is obviously it's layers. Nothing is ever linear right now. It's layers. There's obviously very different experience. It's really interesting how when, when you look at smaller communities, there is that real sense of, of like, well, I live here. Yes. You've just come here. Why are you here? What's your purpose? And I do feel, and the reason I feel this more strongly is because I come, I've come, I come from a family that had had that to deal with, that they dealt that their experience, you know, there was, there was a lot of sacrifice that came Absolutely.
Mel (00:55:01):
With my family coming here, you know, of course my mom wasn't raised by her, her mother. Yeah. Because at the time you people that came to work in Jersey, in the hospitality industry, they couldn't bring their children. They were working under permits. That's such a emotionally, and that causes quite a lot. That's of generational trauma. Absolutely. Of course. As much as my mom would hate him, me hearing me say that, 'cause she'd be like, I don't have trauma. It's like, well mom, you, it does play into our family narrative Of course. And dynamics at attach stories, you know. And it's really tricky because as a result of that, my family had to move to another place. So my mom and her sister had to move to Madrid to live with their grandparents and my great grand, my great grandparents. Yeah. So that in itself, there's another layer of the migration.
Mel (00:55:48):
Absolutely. Absolutely. So you migrate from your home country to another country so that your parents can go work in another country. Yeah, exactly. And that is a really big narrative for our family. Yes. It's, yes. It's, and it still plays into our, our heritage of course. And our ancestral experience. Of course. You know, my brother and I still feel that from my mom and my aunt and my grandmother, who feels really sad about that she couldn't raise her own children. No, of course. Because she needed to go where the opportunity was. Yeah. 'cause There was nothing going on in Madeira at that time. So, and it's really interesting how you know, that's my family story. But imagine how many
Mariana (00:56:24):
Completely
Mel (00:56:25):
Of these narratives are across our
Mariana (00:56:26):
Islands and how much we sacrifice, you know, people who come here, they sacrifice so much. Yeah. You know, and massively, and I think that's one of the things, that's why the, the label migrant is difficult because people associated with, oh, you're just coming here to, to steal something from us. You, you can't be trusted. Mm. And that narrative needs urgently to change. Absolutely. Jobs are created constantly. No one's sticking them away. Yeah. You know? No. And the fact that actually most of these people sacrifice their personal emotional relationships with their families. Mm. Because they're hoping to get an opportunity to help them. These are really powerful stories and they're very difficult to deal with. Yeah. And when they're not recognized, of course they're even more difficult to, to live through. Right. I do understand a little bit, maybe looking back at, at my community in Macau, I understand that it feels difficult when you have a lot of people coming in.
Mariana (00:57:21):
And we've all made beautiful connections to people who've just stayed for six months. And after doing it that for like five years, you're tired of seeing your amazing relationships go. But I think we can create spaces where you can support these type of relationships and nurture them instead of thinking, oh, because you're gonna go away. I'm not gonna have a connection with you because you're gonna be gone in six months. I don't think that's Yeah, that's so true. You know and I understand that being one of the reasons why a lot of people here perhaps are like, oh, you know, they're just coming here. They're working standoff fish. And then it's the otherness. Right. It's like, oh the other. And so let's create opportunities. Let's strengthen the ways we can actually know the stories. And that empathy that you're speaking about, it's, it's crucial. Mm-Hmm. Because as soon as I know your story, I will accommodate difference. Yeah. I will be more flexible. And so can we create a space where the local community will have the support that it needs in order to create relationships with those who come here temporarily. And those who come here temporarily are not seen as the migrant, are seen as the locals, you know, the adopted locals. Yeah.
Mel (00:58:33):
Yeah. Yeah. That's really beautiful. The adopted locals. Yeah. We just don't, jersey's not, we're not great at that.
Mariana (00:58:39):
But I think things can change. And I understand historically, perhaps why? Because again, we're talking about multiple layers and we're talking about people who sit in very different hierarchies of relationships. And so I might not be like that to someone, but someone is like that to me. So I change a little bit towards the next person. And, you know, we are all part of a society that's very complicated. That there are multiple ways of saying, you know, who, who are you in relation to Jersey? And you are measured and you are seen in that relationship. And so of course we then feel those power relations and we sometimes do it to others unwillingly. So let's change this. Right. Let's create a space where you are not a migrant, you are a contributor. Let's change the term. Let's change how you describe the narrative. Yeah, yeah.
Mariana (00:59:31):
Of people coming here. And of course, absolutely. Also, don't forget what you've been through, because those stories should not be forgotten. The difficulties that people face. The fact that, you know, children had to be left somewhere else, that's very traumatic. Mm. Those stories cannot be forgotten. And they're part of it, you know, the history of a place is made of the difficult moments and the good moments. Absolutely. And those difficult moments cannot be ignored just because they're difficult. Let's talk about it. Let's, you know, create a space where you can, you know, support each other to go through that.
Mel (01:00:08):
Well, that's part of being human, isn't
Mariana (01:00:10):
It? Right. It is that, that healing. But don't forget, we did go through those. Mm. And they're there and they're part of who we are. They make us who we are. So can we create a change? Yes, of course we can create a change. And policy is crucial, but it can change. And it's meant to reflect the contemporary realities. And our realities are changing very rapidly. So the fact that some of these structures have not changed for a couple of years in Jersey for decades, it means Jersey is missing out Absolutely. On its own potential. Mm-Hmm. You know, so don't be afraid of changing things because you can change them back again. You can see what works better. And so keeping things as they are might keep some people protected in terms of their status. But it's not gonna help in the future. No. So don't be afraid of change because you can, you know, you can negotiate that change. It's not something someone else is doing. And then you can't go back. Of course you can. Mm-Hmm <affirmative>. And policies can be taken back. They can be changed, but they need to reflect the realities of contemporary movement. And, and okay, let's use the word, you know, migration. But I think Jersey is missing out if it does not take advantage of the people coming here. And they're nurturing those. And we've seen some things change. For instance, the child policy has changed, which
Mel (01:01:24):
Is great.
Mariana (01:01:26):
Finally, let's, let's change more. Exactly. No, let's change more things because again, nurture people's relationships to place regardless of how long they are going to be here. That's not the point. Change the narrative. Change the way you refer to the different groups of people who are here. Find ways of nurturing that relationship to place, to locality, to parishes. And you will see that actually to become a much more thriving community economically. 'cause I understand that's, that's a concern. That's fine. So let's nurture it. Mm-Hmm. Right. By giving people the space where they can thrive and feel that they belong. Absolutely. And make, make Jersey theirs. Absolutely. Mm-Hmm. Yeah.
Mel (01:02:03):
Of course. And to be visible, I think what's really important is to, that that locals in the island understand why policy and legislation is being inpu put in place. Of course. Absolutely. You know, it's, I think again, to kind of, sorry to keep going back to my own kind of experience. No, go. Please go back to your, in terms of thinking about, you know, as a young teenager, a lot of the things that I would hear was, well, you know, immigrants come to the island and they're taking all these jobs and they're yada, yada, yada, all these things. And actually the reality of the situation was, is that migrants are usually invited to the islands Yes. To come and work because there is a demand. Absolute. There is absolutely. That we need a workforce. Yep. So whether we are inviting people from the Caribbean to come and help with hospitality Yes.
Mel (01:02:47):
That's no different to what things were like in the sixties. No. When we were inviting the Madans and the Portuguese to come to the islands Absolutely. To facilitate our hos, our cha our trap. The tourism of industry. Absolutely. Absolutely. People were traveling to the island, they, they needed help. But I think when there's lack of education Yeah. In the community as to why these decisions are being made Yep. And who's being invited. Yes. Then there is this massive opportunity for kind of conflict completely. And problems. Completely. so for me, I always felt that that was a, a big step that we needed to think about as an island, is how do we educate people to understand why these decisions are being made? Why do we need these people? You know, how, how are we going to welcome them? Yes. As, as a community, as an island, how do we take responsibility for how we we're going to behave when they're here?
Mel (01:03:34):
Absolutely. and those things really do need to change. Yeah. But I think that comes from, that's a massive government thing, but also there's a massive opportunity for, for organizations like Jersey Heritage to also also facilitate that. Oh, ab, absolutely. So it's about thinking about ways that we can make our spaces, like in the museums, for example. Yes. More inclusive, more diverse, more welcoming. 'cause I think a, a massive barrier, especially for, for my, I mean, I'm speaking in term, I'm speaking for my, my community. You know, I know that the Portuguese community doesn't come to the museums necessarily. Not everyone. There are people that do mm-hmm <affirmative>. But as a, as a general consensus. Yep. They don't come to the museum. They don't see it as their space. They don't see it as their space. We need to make it their space. So we need to, we need to change that.
Mel (01:04:20):
So a, a big part of the outreach work that we are doing is to think about how we can make these spaces more inclusive mm-hmm <affirmative>. Mm-Hmm <affirmative>. Make them feel more comfortable and more welcoming to everyone. And I'm not just speaking about the Portuguese community. No, of course. It's an example. Exactly. I'm speaking about every single person in the island that has moved here from wherever. Absolutely. We want them to feel like Jersey Heritage is a space that they can come and learn about this new island they've just arrived at. Yes. Understand who we are as an island and what our story is and, and where that person's place is in it. Yep. And how at the minute they get here, they're part of our island story. Yes. They're part of the narrative. Yeah. They are part of who we are. And it's about trying to capture that.
Mel (01:05:04):
So, you know, this podcast is really important because by sharing these really contemporary issues that have been, have been since the beginning of time, they're, they're part of, they're part of who we are. Yeah, absolutely. It's a really lovely opportunity to talk about these to, to show that heritage isn't just a black and white board on a wall that tells you about a painting. Completely not heritage and culture is about language. Yeah. It's about tradition. Yeah. It's about celebrations. It's about, it's about people. It's about, it's about people. It's about everyone. So I just really wanted to emphasize that it's not a black and white cut and paste thing.
Mariana (01:05:38):
It is not. But it's the same, you know, when you were mentioning policy and, and the government. The government is us, you know, so it's not just, oh, the government, something out there that is a top down. No, a lot of things are people led, community led. They have me For sure. And the policy needs to reflect these community interests. It has to be that. And if it's not, we change it. We say it, we push for change. Yeah. And I think, you know, outreach and exposure to the stories is some of the things, some of the best strategies and making these multiple spaces. And I mean, we know museums are perceived to be particular spaces. Let's change that. Let's invite people in who've never been to it, that show, you know, actually you can be a part of creating the narratives that are inside museums, because those narratives are not fixed. Those descriptions are not fixed. So let's bring out your story and let's put it there. And I know that there's a, a new gallery that just opened in the in Jersey's museum. Yeah. And it tells a story of migration. It does. And it's wonderful. And it finally, it's beautiful. You know, let's talk about that.
Mel (01:06:43):
Yeah. And that was a really special moment to see that in the new Terry Deje. It's really, really, really, really interesting to, to have a piece of that heritage and interpreted with art. Yes. Which was a really beautiful touch. You know, there were, there were items in that installation that I can identify. Oh, beautiful. And that's a really lovely thing that I now know will other people will identify with.
Mariana (01:07:07):
And it's in a museum, you know, so if you go to a museum and you see yourself again, this idea of where, where is the other me, right? Mm-Hmm <affirmative>. And this is such an important thing because it feels like you can be a part of it and you can belong and you can contribute. You know, there are interesting strategies that can, that can be experimented with, for example welcoming packages where we know who the migrants are. We know who the people who have particular contracts are. Because precisely, they can't come here without those contracts. So why not, for instance, expose them to, this is Jersey, this is a little bit of the history, these are the communities. Why not have welcoming packages where, you know, the communities are invited to be a part of before they start working here. Yeah.
Mel (01:07:49):
That'd be a
Mariana (01:07:49):
Lovely touch. And so they know what has happened, who has been here, where they can go, who are the community contacts, who has been here and class contributed, and that you can contribute regardless of how long you're going to be here, but also tell that story, you know, and, and at school education is crucial. Let's tell the story of Jersey, of the people who have come here mm-hmm <affirmative>. And let's bring out those stories where you see the other you. Right. The other me. And I think education is crucial, but also outreach and exposure to the stories. And so the idea that, you know, you have communities and, and people coming here and they just stay in that particular space where they work, and they don't have any ways of getting out of this space because, I mean, public transportation is not very easy. You know, people can't just easily go from one space to the other. And so how can we create opportunities for people to leave mm-hmm. To go to explore, to make the island their own. Mm-Hmm. So that they know the geographies, they know the places. And I mean, we know locals sometimes don't even go themselves to particular parts of the island.
Mel (01:08:54):
Yeah, for sure.
Mariana (01:08:55):
You know, so how can we make it that knowing the geography and knowing the location, that local knowledge is so crucial, because how can you make that into your own knowledge? By doing that, I think you can contribute much better. Mm-Hmm <affirmative>. You're much more informed and you can make decisions in your work that you know, know what the best contribution is to where you are. And you can know, oh, if I try to do this, you know, plant this type of product or, or tree, this is the impact. What has been done before? What are the species that have been here? You know? So knowing the local knowledge, the local geography allows you to make informed decisions that contribute better for this. So why not welcoming packages where you actually tell the story of Jersey to people who arrive. You know, because then they know, oh, you know, we've had a community here who came before and they've done this, so I can do it too.
Mel (01:09:47):
Mariana, how do you think that we can encourage people to feel comfortable to, to go into these migrant spaces and these celebrations? What, how do we think we can break down that barrier in, in, in kind of integrating our community with confidence? Yeah.
Mariana (01:10:03):
Well, I think we can definitely take advantage of the fact that it is a small island, right? But we know who the people are. We know who organizes this event. We know who organizes theatre event. And so why not create a space where you have these representatives from the different fes, from the different celebrations come together and say, okay, during this day we will invite stalls from X, Y, and Z community to be a part of our celebration. That's a lovely idea. And so then you have the community coming in. They know that they can go, for example, the Filipino communities is, it's Catholic, it's has so many connections to the Portuguese. Mm-Hmm. So why not bring the two of them together by having a stall from each, the community in each other's event. Mm-Hmm <affirmative>. And then you create this place where people know where to go, and they're like, oh, why don't you try this food?
Mariana (01:10:49):
Why don't you go to that person and get to know them? And so there's, there's a connection, right? You don't just go there and not know anyone. You'll have someone to go to. And I think that's where our jersey and, and, you know, Jersey Heritage and all of that can help. They can create these connections and they can even be their own space. Like why not have a stall for Jersey Heritage to then say, okay, come to us. Do you want to meet someone from the community? Or for example, you perform and you do traditional dancing. Let me introduce you to someone else who does traditional dancing in another community. So that is a way you can bring people together. And I think just putting a stall, a physical stall with someone representing someone else's community, and just showing the connections is a huge step. Because then you're not afraid of going to the unknown. Yeah. It becomes a bit more familiar. And then the next time you go, you don't need that stall anymore. Right. You'll go, because you already know three or four people.
Mel (01:11:44):
Yeah. It's, that's, you're right. That is, again, it's very it's very poignant because part of the outreach is that we do go out a lot across the island to do various different workshops Yeah. And to try and you know, share our heritage in a way that's inclusive. Yep. But, but that's also relevant and rel like relatable of course. Because that is really important. So I think you're totally right in that if we, if there's more visibility across communities, then that will provide more of a safe space for people, people to feel confident. Yeah. Exactly.
Mariana (01:12:17):
Absolutely.
Mel (01:12:18):
Well, thank you so much for your time today. It's been such a lovely conversation and you've, your positivity and your, your real activism for change is so infectious. So thank you very, very much for coming.
Mariana (01:12:31):
Oh, thank you for inviting me and for the opportunity to be here and to learn so much about, about Jersey and about the communities in the island.
Mel (01:12:39):
Oh, it's our pleasure. Well, I really look forward to seeing what you create with Art House Jersey. So yeah. Keep posted, everyone like subscribe, subscribe, subscribe. If you enjoy today's episode, don't forget to click on the subscribe button for more.