Ancient Craft with Dr. James Dilley

In today's episode hosts, Mel and Perry are joined by Dr. James Dilley, the founder of Ancient Craft. 

James is going to be taking us on a journey of craftsmanship and living history with specific emphasis on pre-history. 

They'll discuss the ancient landscape and how this entire landscape is  hidden under the  ground, and littered with fragments of people's lives from many thousands of years ago.

Dr. Dilley talks about his origin story and what got him interested in ancient crafts, and how his work now is dedicated  towards educating and reconnecting people to their prehistoric heritage. 

Find out more about Ancient Craft here.

Visit La Hougue Bie to find out more about the Neolithic passage grave. 

Support our work by becoming a Member.

Transcript

The Jersey Heritage Podcast: Small Island, Big Story Sessions

Ancient Crafts with James Dilly 

Perry (00:00:02):

Welcome to the Jersey Heritage Podcast,

Mel (00:00:05):

The Small Island Big Story sessions.

Perry (00:00:08):

You are listening to Mel & Perry.

Mel (00:00:11):

In today's episode, I'm joined by Dr. James Dilley, the founder of Ancient Craft. James is going to be taking us on a journey of craftsmanship and living history with specific emphasis on pre-history. Welcome James to our podcast channel. How are you today?

James (00:00:30):

I'm very good, thank you. Delighted to be back in Jersey and, and hopefully brought the sunny weather with me for this weekend.

Mel (00:00:36):

You seem to have, yeah, for sure. Yeah. So what are you coming here to do this weekend?

James (00:00:41):

So this weekend I'm here with my partner, Emma, to provide a neolithic living history display and some craft workshops to mark the centenary of the excavation at La Hougue Bie Passage tomb. Amazing.

Mel (00:00:55):

So that sounds like it's gonna be a really, really fun weekend loaded of stuff to do, right?

James (00:00:59):

Yeah, I hope so. We are hoping to have lots of visitors to come and have a go at some of the crafts that we're going to have on show, but just to see spaces like the longhouse occupied, I suppose, because particularly for jersey's, very rich history, there's quite a lot of visual and memory connection to things like the Second World War, and particularly I guess for the Napoleonic, less so for the memory attachment, but more so when places like Elizabeth Castle have quite a frequent living history basis. You can imagine the soldiers bristle in the walls at certain times when the occasional French galleon would sa to past. But once you go beyond maybe a few hundred years ago, let's say, beyond the, the Juda period, history tends to get a bit darker and not from a sinister point of view, although I guess it does in, in some instances, unfortunately.

James (00:01:59):

But I, I guess, more of a hazy distant world and trying to imagine what life might have been like, starts to get much trickier, and that's where we will come to try and give as accurate a picture as we possibly can to get across that people had to make everything, or at least know someone who made that thing that you needed or knew how to procure it. Life was really hard in the past, and it was especially hard back in pre-history, and that's hopefully what we were trying to get across, that the people who lived in Jersey would've come from all sorts of areas in Europe, but they would've been really intrepid, well organized people that would've been quite relatable to people today that they would've not necessarily had the same burdens on on life that we do now. Taxes, traffic, you name it.

James (00:02:53):

But they certainly would've had a lot of social pressures and tensions and concerns throughout the year that I think we'd be able to relate on in quite a human level. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative> the way that we can sort of watch a disaster movie and, and get a sense of that impending tension and doom that something's going to happen. That, although I guess there, there wouldn't have been that, that major disaster as it were in the neolithic, but these were the first farmers that were moving across Europe around 6,000 years ago. They were putting all of their eggs in, in one basket, quite literally, to invest in growing crops rather than relying on the land to hunt and gather. That's a massive change in the way that people live their lives for those hunter-gatherers that lived well across much of Jersey. But we particularly know from the archeology across the North Coast for anyone that sort of walked across that North Coast, you probably imagine a sort of windy day, hopefully a sunny day, a high up on the rock looking down.

James (00:04:00):

But actually that entire landscape hidden under the Heather and GOs is littered with fragments of people's lives from many thousands of years ago. What beyond 6,000 years ago, into sort of 10,000 years ago, these were people who lived very lightly across the landscape, living in seasonal shelters hunting for deer even the very little deer that you had on Jersey back when it was connected to part of D Yeah, D deer, the dwarf deer. But fishing as well would've been a really important part of their livelihood and their food economy. But for those new people who brought in things like pottery and polished stone tools like the big stone axes that you can see in La Hook B Museum or the Jersey Museum, they were starting to actually change the landscape. They were investing into it to start to open up areas of woodland to make them workable, to start to not just pick fruits and berries and seeds from crops when the time was right and in the right place, they were growing them themselves.

James (00:05:03):

And I suppose the risk that, that potential doom getting back to it, is that if there's some unseasonably poor weather, it's a very wet year pretty much as much of Western Europe has experienced this year that all of your eggs in that one basket could fail. That crop could fail. And having tried to grow Prius or crops myself, wow, one strong gust of wind, and they've all get blown over and they'll fail. So it it's risky business being in the neolithic. So it's a lot that we've got to try and get across to people, not just here in Jersey, but elsewhere because as well as covering the Neolithic, the New Stone Age, we cover from the Paleolithic right through to the end of the Bronze Age, which Jersey has a huge amount of heritage for as well with the, the Blanche Pierre Horde and man, many, many other bits of Bronze Age archeology.

James (00:05:57):

It, it's sort of a fascinating landmass that's come into contact with lots of people who would've moved throughout Europe up through Iberia, through western France, via Jersey, and then across perhaps to places like Britain. So it, it has a connection with so many groups of people, so many land masses that we all have a part of. I suppose it's all part of us today. We, we've all connected to it. Mm-Hmm. And I suppose that's why, although perhaps today you might think of yourself as being Ian or, or for myself being from East Anglia in England originally it's quite likely that we're all connected in some way. Yeah, absolutely. That, that makes that broader story special that to, I'm coming over here just for the weekend. Yeah. <Laugh>, it feels like a special trip to be back on Jersey, and I guess I'll get to that shortly about the, the previous trips working with the Ice Age Island project, but to come back and be a part of getting that exciting heritage across so that everyone can enjoy it.

James (00:06:59):

Because for people who work in Heritage like ourselves, work for Jersey Heritage, you have a really privileged position of working with some of that archeological material or for some of those sites, like some of the chambered tombs around Jersey or even some of that later history. But actually instilling that interest across two visitors, either local Ians or to visitors to the island or even the Channel islands more broadly it actually fit into a much bigger, more exciting picture. And we are sort of, I guess not the very earliest part of that timeline. That's perhaps where we had our neander tools at the KO and Briad, but we're a, a slightly later part of that, still earliest part of the timeline that we're going to try and cover over the weekend.

Mel (00:07:46):

Wow. It sounds so fascinating, and your knowledge is so broad and so vast. So where did this all start for you?

James (00:07:54):

Okay, well, that,

Mel (00:07:55):

Let's go back to the beginning. <Laugh>,

James (00:07:56):

Let's, let's go back to the beginning. I guess not, not back to the,

Mel (00:08:00):

The early, not to not, not to the very, very

James (00:08:02):

Beginning, <laugh>. No, no, no. We've guess we've covered the Paleolithic. No, just my timeline. I as I said, come from East Lia. And for anyone who I guess knows East Lia you'll know that one of the main rocks you can get in East Anglia is Flint. You don't tend to get huge amount of flint in Jersey, apart from the small white pebbles that occasionally wash up on the southeastern corner and some of the ship ballast that you can get around gory and monga. But from where I'm from, you can just find it in the fields. In fact, some fields are morelin than they are soil. Wow. So yeah, it's everywhere. And as a kid, I was really interested in history, like most young people, and I suppose that's why we're trying to capture those young, excited, interested minds as we do now.

James (00:08:57):

And I watched someone on TV making a stone ax. And as with any process that's shown on tv, it's made to look very easy and accomplishable in a matter of minutes. And so as a young impressionable 10-year-old, I ran straight out into the garden, found this absolutely weather beaten, frost damaged piece of Flynn, and tried to work it. And unfortunately, there was no sort of Hollywood moment where I hit the stone as if I was destined to be. And it just fell apart with this perfect ax in the middle. Unfortunately, that did not happen. <Laugh> a as I like to level with everyone who has a go at Flint Knapp, and if they come and have a go on a Flint knapping workshop with either myself or someone else, or even, even if they just try at home, everyone's rubbish to begin with.

James (00:09:47):

It's certainly the oldest craft in the world. Our oldest stone tools are currently 3.6 million years old from Central Africa. But no one is naturally good at it. It's referenced as one of the hardest crafts out there because the raw material is so unpredictable and trying to work your way through it envisage how to break through that stone is not straightforward. It's not like a piece of granite or sandstone that you can hit it or plant your chisel and hit the top of the chisel and it will split perfectly. Flint is very glassy. It's almost purely silicon dioxide just like glass. And if you've ever dropped or broken a piece of glass you might come across a a a sort of how to describe it in a sort of non-visual way <laugh>, but it, it, I guess a bit like how waves make contact with sand on a slightly ramped beach, and they make a sort of curving multifaceted surface.

James (00:10:50):

You imagine all of those curves like a load of scallop shells all laid on top of each other, then that's essentially what you are creating. As you work the flint, you put a strike through this very glassy material, and a plane of fracture runs through it, and everything on the outside of that plane, a fracture becomes a flake, and you can use that flake straight away. That's the sharpest edge that I can create. Fresh flint edge can be a matter of molecules thick at the blade, similar to surgical steel in sharpness. Really, it, it's an incredible material, and it's amazing that you can hit it once and achieve that edge. Whoa. Whereas for later technologies like our copper tools in the earliest bronze age, and then of course bronze and iron, they take a huge amount of investment of materials and knowledge and time.

James (00:11:39):

But for flim, anyone can go down to the beach today, but do wear goggles and gloves if you are striking anything, especially Flint, and you can hit it once and get a razor sharp edge what amazing material and maze in technology that you can, it's mind blowing. Exactly. And you can see why it persisted for so long for not just thousands or tens of thousands of years, but hundreds of thousands of years because it is such an effective not necessarily easily accessed if you are in a place where Flint doesn't naturally occur like Jersey. But it, it's something you can make quickly, even with quite limited skill. But going back to I guess me learning, I saw this person make a flint ax, and they made it very easily. And I guess now that it's come full circle, and I've made a flint acts on television a few times, I'm sort of completing the circle, I suppose there's hopefully that next generation that's going to be watching and seeing me making it.

James (00:12:41):

And, and I guess I, I've got to try and do it in a way in front of camera to sort of con the viewer, I suppose, <laugh> to sort of show, actually, this is really, really easy. And then off camera, there's me bashing it and cursing at it for not it, not working for any some reason because it's a natural material. But I suppose as a good friend told me, also works in heritage. Prehistory more broadly is about starting a conversation. As I said at the start, a lot of history is quite relatable to people, especially more recent history, because you might walk past a bunker or an Napoleonic tower or you might just have family records that people can relate to. But very, very distant history is where trying to get those particular aspects across to people becomes quite difficult.

James (00:13:32):

And actually just putting a material in someone's hands they don't even have to work it. They can just feel the tactile nature, the, the texture of it, the weight, the coldness of something like a piece of flint, and start to get some connection to it even before we've started to talk about it. And that's, I suppose, where we would try to encourage a visitor to actually think about it for themselves a little bit. Well, what's this strange material? And as you reacted to me talking about that, raise a sharp piece of flint, it is incredible. And there are so many aspects about the neolithic and prehistory that are really incredible. Because pre prehistory and the people who lived in prehistory, as I said, are, are sort of part of us now. We carry some of them in in our genetics.

James (00:14:17):

Yeah, we have their legacy for sure. We do. And we, we all have for example, a little bit of Neanderthal in us around two to 3%, unless you're from Sub-Saharan Africa. And as I sometimes joke, it feels a bit crass, but on certain high streets for Saturday night, you can see always 5% over there or 10% over there, <laugh>. But, but that does feel a little bit crass, but it's part of adding that conversation, that humor that people can engage with. And nene's tools tend to get a, a, a bit of flack, I suppose, as seemingly being the knuckle draggers of the past. But they weren't. They, they were as intelligent as we are. They actually have bigger brains than we do now on a capacity point of view. They were incredible hunters tool makers, and they lived on the earth far longer than we have now, and survived through very, very challenging conditions, hunting some particularly dangerous animals.

James (00:15:11):

The hunters at Lako been a great example of that. You can see the bones of the mammoth, the woolly rhino that they hunted hundreds of thousands of years ago, and they made their home here on Jersey. But incredible humans. So trying to piece together the human story for archeologists and specialists is really, really challenging because as I like to get across there's so many interesting aspects that we'll have at the weekend, but, we'll, there certainly is around Jersey and Europe as a whole. But if we strip back 6,000 years after we've been there, back in the neolithic, all our clothes, maybe even all of our remains might be a few bones left, but the bits of pots, charcoal, that's all that would be left, all of that language, culture, belief, as I said, clothing and all of those soft organics would be gone.

James (00:16:09):

So there's actually very little left for archeologists to try and interpret, to put back together. I suppose if you imagine it as a thousand piece jigsaw puzzle, that vibrant picture with, with all of those relatable aspects, those thousand pieces might be reduced to five, and they won't be corner or edge pieces, because that would be too easy. And out of those five pieces, trying to reconstruct that entire picture with any sense of confidence or clarity is, is really, really challenging. And that's where we have to cherry pick bits of information from elsewhere, either in Europe around the world, that there might be one site where this particular material or object has been preserved to bring it into that picture, to not offer it as solid evidence of that this is what they did here in Jersey 6,000 years ago. But it might be something that they did, or they might have something similar.

James (00:17:06):

And even if it's not truly correct, because for some reason they didn't have that particular style of object here on Jersey, it's a conversation starter. It gets people thinking about the distant past and putting themselves in that environment. Well, how would I do it? Well, you know, could I go out and turn a field over by hand the next time you're walking past a, a jersey royal field as the, they're growing away. Could you imagine turning over all of that soil over with sticks and hand tools, maybe with some kind of very primitive plow being pulled along by oxen? Could, could you imagine yourself controlling those massive cattle cutting through soil perhaps for the first time 6,000 years ago, and then cutting down trees with stone access to build something like the longhouse at the hook bee? It's a huge amount of time and effort and skill, and people were not living very long, almost certainly because they were just burning themselves out.

James (00:18:05):

People talk a lot about quite rightly wellbeing and mindfulness today. And, and I suppose that's all about grounding ourselves in the world today and, and going out for walks, experiencing the natural world, and heritage is all part of that, and we are really lucky today that we can do that. Did they do that back in the Neolithic? Was there some cleansing ritual to, to, I guess de-stress? We'll never know. And it, it feels a bit hard to say, definitely not. But at the same time, it's, it's perhaps more down the spiritual end to say, well, yes, definitely. We can't see the way, unfortunately, going back to that jigsaw puzzle, we are missing those bits, unfortunately. But for people that would be living maybe to their forties, occasionally fifties, those were quite short lives. And they would've been eating pretty gritty bread.

James (00:19:00):

They were grinding their teeth down to, you know, almost flat. And often they, they were being killed violently because as those first farmers came in, they needed land to grow those crops and feed those animals from the grass. And if you happen to lay claim to that nice piece of land and someone else wanted it and had a few buddies to come and how can I put it tactfully encourage you off that land <laugh> if you were prepared to defend it, that's perhaps where some hostility could come into the mix. So as well as life being hard from a manual labor point of view people were not particularly friendly in the neolithic to each other. Prior to that was hunter gatherers and Neanderthal before. Again, we think of them as these sort of brutish stone age people, but actually the evidence of violence prior to the appearance of agriculture is almost nil.

James (00:19:56):

It's extremely rare. We get one or two instances, but they could just as easily be an accident or two people had a disagreement over one particular thing. As soon as we get to the time of the passage grave at Hoby and, and some of the other neolithic stone monuments around Jersey the violence increases dramatically. And in parts of Southern Britain where an assemblage of human bones have been found, and there's men, women, and children the mortality rate from just blunt force trauma is 33%. Whoa. So one in three chance which is pretty grim. Yeah. your chance of being killed violently today, if you include all parts of the world including where we're at now in Jersey and those countries that unfortunately in a quite unstable hostile environment currently all include all in your chance of being killed violently is 3%. So it, it's just poles apart. Mm-Hmm. So although I said at the start, people came together to build monuments, and there was definitely a lot of collaboration, you know, to move some of those massive pieces of stone to build massive monuments. That wasn't a group of one or two, you know, tens of people that may have been hundreds of people involved. That's where people agreed to do something together. But at the same time, unfortunately, they were very human as well. They fell out a lot. We think.

Mel (00:21:29):

That sounds <laugh>. I mean, yeah. I mean, all that information is completely like the, the mind just kind of bends and does all sorts of things. Thinking about that kind of evolution of, and also you just, you mentioned how long that period was, that is quite a substantial amount of time for people to be doing this kind of same thing, which is really interesting. Are you a Jersey Heritage member? If not, head to our website and sign up today. So you talked about making these axes. So how did you learn how to do that? It was, it, was it literally from just watching the tv?

James (00:22:16):

So I, I guess when I started the idea of YouTube and online social media videos and the rest were very much in, they may have been in their planning stage <laugh>, and certainly in their, their infancy, very, very much infancy if they existed at all. And I taught myself wow for a lot of trial and error, but I was very fortunate to have as much raw material as as I could want, so long as I could walk over to the fields, fill a ruck sack as a teenager, come back after school and have a go. I, I wasn't limited at all. I suppose Flint napping among all the other crafts I was interested in. It didn't speak to me, but it, it was a craft that I could have a go at immediately. I didn't need any special equipment other than a pair of goggles and gloves.

James (00:23:09):

My hammer was just a pebble as people had in pre-history, and that's just what I use now. So I could have a go immediately. And I found immediately that it's blooming difficult. And to be honest, even these days 20 years later, or over 20 years later, it is still blooming difficult if the flint being as inconsistent and full of fossils and flaws and other problems as it is, if it doesn't wanna play, it won't, and I won't make an ax or whatever I'm trying to make, I'll have to make something much smaller sometimes. So it took many years of practice and determination, and I can remember quite vividly several occasions where I decided I, I'm not getting it. I'm giving up with this. But for some reason, just went back to it. I dunno why I guess it was that childhood tantrum of this isn't working.

James (00:23:59):

I'm not achieving what I wanted, because I could see the pictures of the tools in books and on TV or wherever, but I just couldn't understand why I wasn't achieving what I wanted to. Mm-Hmm. But I would step away and I would be doing something completely different and it would click, there'd be a, oh, I wonder if I try that, or if I turn it over the piece of Flint and, and hit it on this side at that angle, I wonder what happens. And sometimes it, it wouldn't quite achieve the effect I want to, but sometimes it would. And it would be this eureka moment of, ah, hang on, I'm onto something here. And I suppose I, the closest I've come across is that I'm not very musical, unfortunately. I have tried a few different instruments and, and going through those early stages having to go at, say, guitar going through either a particular chord, get getting your hand to start to get used to working on a certain shape and leaving it and coming back to it, maybe overnight, coming back to it's much easier.

James (00:25:02):

And I think it's because your brain has been given that chance to think about it. Mm. I guess your, you know, your heart is encouraging you and wants you to achieve this, but your brain has to build those neuron pathways to allow your hands and your eyes to work together to do exactly what you want to do. And that it just takes time. And I dread to think how many people I've had on Flint Knapping workshops to have their go at mate, have a go making a, a stone tool. But I always say, regardless of their age or background be prepared to fail a lot. But don't worry so much about what you are aiming for, just focus on the journey. But I, I guess that's the same with so many crafts and skills. Don't set the expectation too high of yourselves.

James (00:25:53):

There's that classic to be a master in something takes 10,000 hours. I can believe that. Absolutely. and it doesn't have to be 10,000 hours in one go. It can be a bit here a bit there. And certainly from a teaching point of view I find it's best to just get students, Flint napping students to have a go at the absolute basics. If I could have them doing that for several days, even weeks, they would be a lot more confident going forwards. It's always the basics that are important. And me as a kid and for people on the workshop that they know what they want to do and they're, they're running towards it. And actually it's slowing down and setting realistic goals for yourself that I've got this piece of flint in my hand. I I just want to confidently take some flakes off.

James (00:26:44):

I'm not gonna worry about making an arrowhead or an axe or a spearhead. I'm just gonna take flakes off and they're going to be good flakes and that I'll be happy with that. And that's the kind of realistic expectation, not just for that first go or even 10 goes, but maybe 50 goes or so. And, and once you've got past that kind of stage, you'll be a lot more confident. And I suppose you see that across other cultures learn in certain crafts. There's so many stories that actually we see in film and media of the apprentices of Japanese blacksmiths who, who are highly experienced swordsmiths for their young apprentice who's either work in the bellows or, or something similar as they start to progress, they might have to make a hundred kitchen knives or even a thousand kitchen knives or so before they're even allowed to consider making something like a sword because they need to build up the basics before they might ruin a perfectly good piece of stone.

James (00:27:44):

Or they become frustrated and disheartened by going big and ultimately going home because they just can't grasp or, or jump too high, take too many steps at once. Mm. Because, you know, even if we try and jump up the stairs, there's only so many we can go for. And the higher we aim, the greater the risk of falling all the way back down. And that's very much the same, that throughout time across so many different crafts, people would've had to have passed these skills down. And I'm supposed to bring that right back to the stone age, is that our evidence of language and to that jigsaw puzzle where we'd lost language and cultural, the rest of it. I mentioned the oldest stone tools in the world of 3.6 million years old. For me to teach someone how to make a stone tool is very, very difficult without language.

James (00:28:36):

So does that open up the question of the oldest language, the oldest communication where it does, how do we pin it down? Not easily, but certainly once we start to get the more complex stone tools like our ne anal cousins were making, they almost certainly had a very complex language. They were able to communicate, use sounds, maybe an element of sign language as well as we do today when we wave at each other. Sometimes a little more complex than that. But they were just as human as we were. And those particular insights into the distant past is again, where I think we can relate to watching perhaps a parent teaching one of their children or perhaps one of the other younger people in the community. Once they've watched that adult for quite a long period of time making, let's say a stone ax, and then after a period of time that adult has noticed their interest and, okay, come on, you can have your first go.

James (00:29:35):

Hit it there <laugh>. And even with, with that sentence or that instruction I've broken it down into the, the complexities of language. I'm no linguist at all. But I can certainly relate to trying to teach someone hit here without language just gesturing you can get away with, but how hard do you hit it and what angle and how do you hold the stone? There are all of those subtleties that you can't easily get across. Mm. Just with miming or sign language or direction, unless that sign language is, is based on complexity. So, so much we don't know so much we can assume and infer but, but without any solid evidence, unfortunately. And that's even before we get to the Bronze Age. I mean, if the, if I'm <laugh> Yeah, totally. If, if the Flint doesn't want to play and it's got a Foss or Alaw in it and it's just been rubbish day flint happening, I prefer bronze casting.

James (00:30:35):

And if for some reason the bronze doesn't wanna work, I go back to preferring Flint napping. Because both are tricky crafts, but how on earth do you get some metal from a rock and turn it into a sword or an ax? Totally reasonable question. It's when we get asked very often at who worked out, you can get a metal from rock and it's particular scenarios like that. Who is that first person? How on earth would you just look at a rock on a ground and think, oh yes, there's metal in that. How do you deconstruct that? And actually you, I can give you what we think is logical, but not necessarily exactly how they did it. Mm. Because the, the next time you see you as the listener, I'm talking directly breaking that fourth wall <laugh>. Next time you are in a museum, it doesn't have to be on Jersey.

James (00:31:24):

And you see something like a, a bronze acts in the pre-history gallery. The most important gallery I hasten to add. I want you to imagine how you, as someone who is familiar with making stone tools, I've talked about how you pick up a piece of flint, you hit it with another stone and a very sharp bit breaks off, that's nice and straightforward. But how do you take that fairly unassuming rock and draw metal out of it? Well, actually you are someone who is quite familiar with hitting two stones together. So I'm gonna slightly change the scenario a little bit, that it's not just some unassuming rock, it's a slightly shiny rock that you found in a river. I'm not necessarily ta talking on jersey, although both copper and tin do occur on Jersey only in small amounts, unfortunately. But you can go to parts of Europe where both copper and gold occur naturally in a metal state.

James (00:32:16):

And I'm sure you can imagine those pioneers in the American West going out there with their gold pan 'cause they're waiting for those shiny nuggets of heavy gold to appear because it's in a natural metal state with those copper nuggets, which is known as native copper or native gold. If it occurs naturally as a metal, you can hit it with a stone and it won't flake like flint. It'll start to deform, it'll start to change shape. And if you keep hitting it on another stone like an anvil surface, it'll start to get very thin. And then you can put an edge on it. And at that point, you've made a knife from a new material. And for people 5,000 years ago, as the people are today in the present, the newest tiniest iPhone is particularly enticing to people, <laugh> and a new material for your knife as you walk into your community who is so used to using stone tools and you brandish this newly slightly shiny material that's a bit soft and a bit bendy, but it's new.

James (00:33:23):

And I've worked in, in a different way. Everyone would want one because that's not necessarily a, a functional advantage, but it could be a show of status if you have control of it. And unfortunately, humans are human, as I was suggesting earlier. And having control and being able to show status is something we do a lot today. And people certainly did in the past. So you've got your copper so far, we are a little away from bronze yet, but you've got your copper knife that you've taken a piece of naturally occurring copper, you've hit it with some stone. And if you've ever worked copper pipe or bent a bit of copper wire, you might notice it's warmed up a little bit just as the atoms are sliding over each other in the metal as you work and bend it. And that person who hit that piece of copper multiple times to make the very basic knife we'll have noticed all this is getting a bit warm.

James (00:34:14):

And actually, as I'm hitting it quite a lot actually, it's really getting hot. Not quite enough to start a fire, but uncomfortably hot to hold. And that's funny because actually sometimes with Flint, we've put it in the near the fire, not in the fire, but near the fire. And dad or mom or grandpa in our neolithic community always says that if you put the flint near the fire for a certain amount of time in the right place, it actually becomes glassier. It becomes easier to work. And that's also weird because uncle Terrance, not a neolithic name, but let's say Uncle Terrance he gets clay from just behind the bay at what would become St. W's and can turn them into these soft vessels that he then puts them in the fire with Auntie Judith's Health. And again, another Neolithic name, which I'm just pulling out of thin air <laugh> and do not, dear listener, do not take these names.

James (00:35:11):

This is just to, to fill characters here. But they put them in the fire, they stack them up, and they become rock hard from that soft clay with heat, they become rock hard. So I wonder, with this piece of copper I've been hitting, it's getting very hot. If I put it in the fire, what will happen? And for that person who did that, they will have found that actually it becomes much easier to hammer. They've been cold forging it like a blacksmith. But instead of the blacksmith putting their irons in the fire, they've been hitting it cold. Now by putting it in the fire and it getting hot, they're hot forging it, and it becomes much easier to work. And with a bit more heat and a bit more heat becomes even easier and a little bit more heat, oh, it's melted. But now that you've melted it, you can cast it into a shape, which is so much easier than going through those hours and hours of bashing it over and over again.

James (00:36:04):

You can just cast it into a long shape and then just bash the edges. And then you've got your knife. And now that I've made a few of these, let's say time passes a few months or even years later, now that I've made one of these knives for all of my friends and family as I've used it on something wet or to take some bark off a tree, it's going a bit green on the surface. That's a bit funny. A a again, I'm talking to you now directly listener, a bit like your copper pipes at home. If you, next time you're outside you, you've parked the car from going shopping, you're walking past the house and your garden pipes that go to the outside tap. If it's not to covered with frost protection, you might notice in places where it's going a bit green and that's the copper starting to take on oxygen, it's trying to turn back into what's called an awe.

James (00:36:54):

It's becoming oxidized. And for that, going back now into our early bronze age person who's made all those knives, and they said, oh, that's funny. It's going a bit green. And that's weird because where I got this funny copper metal from, there were some other rocks that were really green and they were much heavier than they should be. I wonder what happens if I bash them. And they would've found that it just crumbles because it's not metal. But I'm gonna try something else. I'm gonna take that rock and I'm gonna put it in the fire. And like my copper that I melted after getting it really hot, I wonder what happens. And at that point, they would've smelted it, they would've drawn the metal out from that rock. So going right back to our first step, taking that funny rock, how to get the metal out, those as the possible steps, nice and steady, as people experimented, they had a go with things, but nothing too wild, no aliens involved, nothing crazy, just human curiosity,

Mel (00:37:57):

Which is really interesting how you talked about, you know, the process in terms of, you know, sometimes you'll show someone how to do something and it either the material doesn't play ball with you or the person doesn't get it on the off chance. So, you know, talking about how important a process is, 'cause that's exactly what you're describing, the process of investigating trial and error. Does this work, does this not, but also a curiosity, I find it's, I think a lot of the things you're talking about also comes from this human intuition of, of what feels right and what doesn't. So yeah, very interesting thinking about the process of making something, but also thinking about the process of what it would've been like for them in that era in that time. So what other kind of stuff do you make

James (00:38:42):

By me? So I, I guess my core crafts, if for any archeologists listening, you, excuse the pun. My core crafts are flint napping and bronze casting. My partner Emma, focuses on prehistoric jewelry and ornamentation, which is sometimes stone, sometimes bronze, beautiful. But it can include things like bone antler, even wood sometimes. So things like amber or jets from Whitby. It's sort of a bit like a coal famous for Victorians wearing particularly Queen Victoria. But people use that a lot in pre-history. And even on Jersey now, I'm really casting my mind back 'cause it's been a while since I've gone through the record. But there's an absolutely fabulous Jade, a type ax that used to be on display in La Hook B. Now, at the time of speaking to you again, listener <laugh> I haven't yet been back to Hook Bee Museum.

James (00:39:36):

I will be of course this weekend coming up. But I haven't seen the new displays. But I can always remember coming in, in, in, in my breaks because rather than sitting there eating my sandwich in between speaking to visitors, I'd be in there looking at the archeology as you should be <laugh>. And although they were the really long jade axes, there was one very small one that has a little hole drill through it to be made as a pendant. So someone wanted to show off these really, really lovely vivid green materials, been shaped into a little Ed. So it's all of those components that we're exploring other than than stone and bronze. We work with wood bone antler, you know, even clay. Almost all the materials you, you can imagine that people might have in in their prehistoric world.

James (00:40:23):

Because actually what we find is that all those crafts feed into each other, they overlap. You need stone tools to do carving. But I also need clay to make my molds for bronze casting. And they all overlap. They all fit into each other. So people in the past would've had to have interacted with each other. They would've had to have exchanged or collaborated for those materials, those resources, as you were, if you, you are one of those kids, and I was certainly one of them that played games like Age of Empires, though gathering resources and collecting 'em together to move technologies forward was really important in the game and certainly in the past as well.

Perry (00:41:06):

Have you ever stumbled upon what you believe might be an archeological object at Jersey Heritage? We are committed to preserving and understanding our rich history through our public fine scheme. I'll photograph, identify and record your fines. Every artifact recorded contributes to expanding our archeological knowledge. Call me at eight three three one four one.

Mel (00:41:31):

What do you think of our neolithic

James (00:41:33):

Longhouse? Well, I, I was actually there to see some of the longhouse being put together. Now I'm slightly biased because Luke Winter, who oversaw the project, is a very good friend. I actually was fortunate to see him very recently. But what the volunteers have done there, I is just magical. I've been in lots of replica houses and as soon as I stepped into that, even before it was finished, it just felt neolithic. There are a few occasions in what I do where we've had to set up prehistoric scene for some filming usually, and you take all measures and precautions to try and make sure the setting is as authentic as possible because you don't want something modern in the background. You don't want sort of someone holding a Starbucks coffees or game of throne style <laugh>. But that was one of those occasions where you, you kind of felt the hairs go up on the back of your neck.

James (00:42:31):

This has been researched and built as accurately as physically possible. And as that kid many moons ago who would flick through those books, imagining what life was like thousands of years ago, I'm seeing it in front of me as the real thing. So Jersey Heritage, you as Jns, and if you're not jn you as the visitor that might be coming to Jersey or or on Jersey now you're incredibly lucky to have that longhouse. And, and incredibly lucky to have the site to have it on. I can't really express enough how valuable replica structures like that are because there aren't as many in the uk. And certainly not as many to that quality. There, there are smaller ones but nothing quite like that. So it really gives you an amazing sense of what life might have been like.

James (00:43:27):

And I'm not talking from just sort of how people would've milled around. They would've made a stone ax, they would've done this, but actually just sitting down in the longhouse. If the volunteers are working it, if they ever do the fire lighting demonstrations, which I know they do frequently at the museum, just sitting in there and looking across as, as the limited amount of light is in the longhouse with all of those upright wooden posts there that hold up the roof and just a wisp of smoke coming through. If you forget everything around you in any of the sounds as the any cars come past or children running round, although children running round outside would be very neolithic sound. You can transport yourself back 6,000 years through something that people have been able to reproduce today accurately. And there aren't many settings that you can do that in. You can go and sit in any of the tombs or mounds or prehistoric sites, but most of them will be missing something apart from the hook B, unless you actually sit in the chamber. Most of the other tombs are missing the mound that's on top of 'em, missing most of the stones. So there aren't many places that you can really feel experience the distant past if you deconstruct the world around you. If you, if you get all of that, you could be back there 6,000 years.

Mel (00:44:48):

I was having a look at your, your website for the Ancient Craft, and you, you articulated this really beautifully. I'm just gonna read a little segment from your About Us section you said. So this is the reason why Ancient Craft was founded, was to dedicate its focus towards educating and reconnecting people to their prehistoric heritage. And the ancient craft strongly believes the most effective way to engage individuals and communities in prehistory is through the creative, through the creation and delivery of interactive experiences using quality replicas and experience specialists. So how important is it to have an environment like the Long House to be able to do this kind of work?

James (00:45:28):

Our work is so much easier with something like that. I, I guess as I was getting across, I was sort of trying to express how amazing it is for me to work in a setting like that, but so amazing for visitors as well to have a resource like that. If I was young growing up on Jersey and on a school trip I was able to go to the Long House and have a go at some of the different crafts that they did in the Neolithic. 'cause I have, having made some of the tools that are used in those have a go activities for school groups it would absolutely hooks me almost certainly even younger. And I, I can only imagine how enthused how interesting, exciting it is for young people who you often hear phrases like, oh, kids are like sponges.

James (00:46:20):

They absorb everything. And it's one of those phrases you hear again and again. It's like, yeah, okay, kids are also annoying sometimes as well. Yeah, <laugh>. But the, actually it's one of those rare situations that even with, and, and if you're a parent, not that I am, but if you're a parent, you'll perhaps relate to this, trying to detach children from phones and tablets. Yeah. And games consoles at the moment is very, very challenging. Even harder with social media as it is at the moment. Which I really empathize with well sympathize with in in fact because, you know, I imagine it's incredibly challenging, but actually having the setting with groups like the Young Archeologist group on Jersey, which I was a member of was able to be exposed to some of these amazing pieces of archeology and history and craft.

James (00:47:13):

Having something that will fully capture the attention of young people in an effective way that can direct them almost straight away into something that is learning based education, very wholesome it's fully outdoors. It involves having interactions with people of all sorts of ages and backgrounds. It, it's a really important part of the world today. I, I suppose particularly in the western world, that despite all the horrors and difficulties that are going on I guess our mirror side of all the difficulties of the neolithic, we still have a lot of difficulties today. That connection, I guess you if you've got that mirror and that handshake in between the, although the people in the past might not have had that opportunity to unwind as it were, a disconnect by thinking about us in the future, we at least have that opportunity to disconnect and make that handshake with the past, or at least start their conversation.

James (00:48:19):

As I said, a pre-history being about starting a conversation. It, it just gives people an opportunity to have a sense of connection and to have a lot of the I feel I'm saying it a few times, but the troubles of the outside world just shut away for an hour or so because you're thinking about what's in front of you and what you're seeing is something being made from scratch. Someone's picked up a rock and they've just made it into an accent. It, it's a scene that would've been both visible and very audible across Jersey because if you've ever seen or heard Flint napping or perhaps seen one of the videos on the Jersey Heritage website, it, it's a sound that is very unique. It's distinctive and all of those senses that are going on in front of you can completely take you away or take you back in time as it were.

James (00:49:14):

So having that, setting that space to do that is really special both for me as the craftsperson because it gives me the film set behind me and me as sort of the, the ringleader to, to sort of point at these amazing things and say, look at this. This is what people lived in. This is what they built. Or look over there, people built that mound over there. They dragged those stones across the landscape and they had the wherewithal to balance them on top of each other and then build that enormous mound on top. I've got the tools around me. I can bring the small tools on my car on the ferry as I just have <laugh>, but being equipped with the tools to actually set the scene as there is at hook be in that lovely, peaceful woodland is about as good as I could get. I can't really ask for more. You've given me everything I need to to engage with the public now. I just need to work out a way of bringing it round with me to every site around the uk.

Mel (00:50:11):

<Laugh> not so easy. We need to hit a trailer. I get that in the Olympic long. Exactly. Yeah. Oh, well it's so nice to hear your enthusiasm around it. 'cause I've been to the longhouse many times myself. I had the privilege of, of photographing the launch of, of the Longhouse and, and watching the volunteers develop such a special project was really, really beautiful thing to see, especially the bond that was created between all the volunteers. And I can only imagine that, you know, with what you do, you must see a lot of that like human connection happening when you kind of strip everything back and just focus on something that's really raw and really real and something that kind of really brings out a lot of human intuition and human kind of like skill. 'cause I think we are deeply skillful people. I think it's ingrained in us to, to kind of have the ability to make things. We, you know, ev every human is creative in their own way. So it must be a really lovely experience for you and your partner, Emma, to, to, to have that and to see it happening with, with real connections and people connecting to, to their heritage and to, to the ancestors. So that must be really lovely for you guys.

James (00:51:25):

It is. And for a recent project that we've just finished we've been building bronze age boats in Northampton Shearer site called Stan Lakes. Very impressive. And we've been working with a group of volunteers who are ex-service people, ex firefighters and emergency service workers. And for some of them being able to step away from some of the things they've seen had to work with through the week is really important. And I guess that's going back to me talking about being able to sort of deconstruct the modern world around you. But they've been able to invest a lot of their time and interest from a background of local history, but not in depth knowledge. And being able to step away as me as the supervisor and watching them interacting with the public themselves shows me that they are fully engaged, they're invested.

James (00:52:19):

This is their project. Mm. And I've seen that with the longhouse volunteers themselves. This is their house, their structure. And you know, it is for everyone on Jersey as well. It, it, it's their site. But they have that deep connection there. There'll be timbers within that structure, some of the patches of wattle and door that they put on the wall that they did themselves. And actually for many young people in school that might have shoved that muddy mixture onto those walls themselves, they will have had a part in that. They, they're directly invested in that. And it's about having those connections that you feel you have a part of. You, you might be Ian and, and be connected to one of those dusty stone piles in the field because you happen to live on the landmass that happens to be.

James (00:53:15):

But unfortunately you'll have limited genetic connection to those people that built that. That's just the way that people are that they migrate and they replace Mm-Hmm, <affirmative>. Again, humans are human. But being able to explore that prehistoric world through something like experimental archeology or experiential archeology, which is the process of rebuilding either a whole structure or an object and looking at how it was built, how it was used, how it was destroyed, as it's not always by accident. Sometimes people intentionally destroyed things in the past, gives you a, a greater sense of life in the past. And watching people have that enjoyment outta it and that excitement and then wanting to convey that excitement to visitors is really, really wholesome for us. It is what keeps us going, and whether it be in person or through the means. Now, I totally knocked social media not so long ago, but actually social media is an incredible tool for heritage interpreters to actually put videos showing how people did things in the past or perhaps showing the inside of a castle to make it more accessible. That even if someone's been there a hundred times or they've seen that process before, just being able to sit at home on a rainy day or even late at night when, when you've got troubles on your mind that if you can explore the 3D model of a something or, or watch someone doing something, it, it gives you that relaxing connection to the past. That, that is just so important in today's world. I feel like I've sort of really gone down the wellbeing, mindfulness, that

Mel (00:55:00):

Approach. Yeah, well that's, well a lot of the, a lot of the things that we talk about on this podcast is about, you know, human connection stories, contemporary issues, things that aren't things that are slightly more intangible because obviously we can, we can touch and we can see and we can smell and, you know, all these, these buildings that we have and these, you know, the pieces, objects in our collection, you can see that stuff. You can, you can really feel its heritage. Whereas the stuff that we talk about specifically down this kind of route is, is intangible. So it's about the skills of teaching someone how to make something that isn't something that's, it's not very easy to do unless you're showing someone. So there needs to be an element of human connection and communication to be able to do that. So this platform's really special in that way, that talking about how we keep these traditions and these craft this craftsmanship alive is really, really important. So it's really lovely to hear you going down that route of what the experience is also like for you, because that's just as important as what you're teaching someone, it's the connection they're making with you and with Emma. So I think that everything Ancient craft stands for is very, very much at the forefront of what, where heritage and culture is heading.

James (00:56:11):

Absolutely. And I've, I've always said that archeology is for everyone is as simple as that. And what, what we, I guess try to do is translate some of the academic literature and discussion, which is sometimes very highbrow. And, and the vocabulary used is, is excessive the amount of times I, I mean, I'm a crafts person before an academic Mm-Hmm. But the amount of times I'll pick up a, a research paper or journal and the, it's almost a competition to use the longest word possible <laugh>. And it's, you know, how, how, how do you make that more

Mel (00:56:48):

Accessible?

James (00:56:49):

Accessible as exactly

Mel (00:56:50):

Understandable.

James (00:56:51):

<Laugh>. Yeah. And it, it, it's a shame, unfortunately. But I think there, there is that sort of bubble within the academic world. I mean, I've been there, I've been at universities where discussions happen between personnel without necessarily a particularly keen view o onto who's actually gonna digest this material. Oh, well, I've got to make sure I use the longest words so that my colleague in this other university doesn't have a, a right go that I'm using simple language. But actually, you know, that only means that maybe five people will read it.

Mel (00:57:29):

Absolutely.

James (00:57:29):

But if you can use accessible language and if you can make it interesting and exciting that it opens it up to far more people. And even if you are not in a position to actually, let's say have a go at a Flint knapping or making a stone stone axe part of what we do is making replicas of those prehistoric objects, whether it be a, a bronze sword or of a flint axe, as I said that people can purchase that they can use at home, either as something nice on the mantle piece, God knows why <laugh>. But you can perhaps use with children or young people to handle some of these objects as often they're behind glass because they're thousands of years old and they're fragile. But as I said earlier, being able to touch a lot of these objects feel the weight, the coldness of, of them gives you that direct connection to the past. And that's just one of those lines that we try to use as much as possible, like social media, like being there in person as we'll be at the weekend. It is using all of those opportunities to make prehistory accessible.

Mel (00:58:36):

Yeah, absolutely. I couldn't agree more. I think it's, we learn by doing, by connecting and by actually, you know, we use, we have five senses for a reason, and if we can use them all in kind of like, in similar synchronicity, then that's obviously going to enrich anyone's experience further. So, yeah, I can, I couldn't agree more. I guess the last question I have is, you mentioned earlier you came to Jersey to do the Ice Ice Age Island project. So can you tell us a little bit about that and your involvement with that?

James (00:59:06):

Feels like a world away now, <laugh>. It was quite, quite a few years ago, but so I came over to Jersey when archeologists from multiple different universities were exploring some of those ice age hunters and Neanderthals on the island has, although it's, it's only a relatively small land mass, it might not feel it when you're trying to get through some hea traffic <laugh>. But actually it, it's see, I, I'm picking up on the local knowledge. I feel like I've been here long enough to know all the problems you're getting into the ice. Yeah,

Speaker 4 (00:59:36):

Exactly. Tangible cultural heritage

James (00:59:37):

There. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. So you, there's actually a, an incredible amount of really rare archeology here on the island. And it's locked away in little pockets where sediment from that time, from tens of thousands of years ago, has ended up in valleys or narrow crevices between the granite that archeologists can excavate. And the archeologists came across a site at Laine which was found by someone who, who was running at the edge of the field, ju just on their daily run. And they noticed some Flints coming out of the bank. And it was, well, Flint doesn't naturally occur on Jersey, as we discussed earlier. And certainly these quite long sharp pieces of Flint, these look like a something. And then they excavated the site to actually find an Ice Age site really, really rare. And as part of that for quite early on the archeologists involved for the likes of Matt Pope who's still working on the island Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>

James (01:00:38):

To explore some of that Ice Age archeology or Becky Scott or many others. Lots of specialists involved as, as well as Jersey Heritage wanted to have as many opportunities to engage with visitors and Jos as possible. So I was brought over to set up an ice age camp, which was set up at various places around the island to let people see what life might have been like tens of thousands of years ago, and just how tricky life might have been then. Now there are subtle differences between the Neolithic world and the Ice Age world. The, the tricky bit about it, I, I guess, is that although LA Hook B where we have the, the lovely Long House and the burial mound right next to me where I have as perfect props to set my scene, unfortunately the Jersey Heritage budget didn't quite extend to creating this sort of snow scape with Yes, <laugh>, animatronic mammoths walking past, unfortunately.

James (01:01:38):

So it, it was a little trickier to sort of set the scene, but then again, I guess a lot of people have experienced cold. And for those that have been lucky enough to see more of the world, sometimes very intense cold. Mm-Hmm. So getting across how tricky life might have been like in that cold setting, can you imagine going out and trying to find a stone and hitting it in your hands, being, I guess a bit like being hit with a wet cold football? It's, it's not nice when you, you are cold. The shock that goes through your body is, is a lot more intense or trying to light a fire when there's very few trees around not much firewood, maybe some gore, some bracken. How do you do that? And all of those particular challenges for, for that setting brought me over to Jersey originally, or Jersey Heritage brought me over, I guess, and over a whole month I would be set up either in one place or multiple places showing some of those skills.

James (01:02:36):

And that happened for three years coming back each summer to enjoy absolutely glorious weather. That was sometimes well into the thirties which made it even harder to get across here. <Laugh>, this is the Ice Age. Yeah, it was really cold. As you can see, I'm not particularly well dressed for that Ice age environment. I'm not covered in reindeer skins because I would melt <laugh>. But that's what people had. But the, the engagement we got was really good and it, it provided lots of other opportunities. And I suppose the following years ended up working with schools directly at the museum itself, with schools coming to me to see some of those demonstrations as it fitted into the curriculum handling collections were made of replica objects films. And then as the longhouse was built and finished I then started working in a neolithic setting to show what life was like much, much later. But I suppose to really sort of give a sense of the range of time involved for those neolithic people 6,000 years ago, they are closer to today than those Neolithic Stone age people are to those Ice age, stone age people. Whoa. And they, both, those people are just at the very end of the stone age. Both of those people, both those Neolithic people and those Ice Age people are closer to today than both of them are combined to Neanderthals. It's, it's vast, vast amounts of time,

Mel (01:04:08):

Mind blowing when you, I mean, you are very good at explaining, you are very good at putting that into a, a visual kind of context. So that is a very interesting, you know, concept. Well, it's not even a concept, it's an actual thing.

James (01:04:21):

Well, I guess you have to imagine it as sort of a timeline that for the earliest Stone Age, what archeologists sometimes calls the Paleolithic, the Old Stone Age for Lithic what they mean is stone tools from the Greek lithos for, for stone. So the old Stone tools right at the start in Britain is, it's around a million years ago, but in Jersey it's about 300,000 years ago, maybe a little bit older. If you took a step to represent a hundred years or so, just to get to the end of the old Stone Age, even before you get to the middle stone age for those megalithic hunter gatherers on the north coast, you'd be walking to the other side of the island, <laugh>. It's, it's just vast, vast amounts of time. And then you'd out be out in the sea Yeah. To get to the Mesolithic. It, it is just an incredible amount of time, one step a hundred years, but you've got to take a thousand steps and then another thousand steps, and then another thousand steps. And to get to the end of it, you could easily be on the other side of the island. Almost. Definitely. Wow.

Mel (01:05:26):

It's incredible really that this whole, this whole period of history, I always have, have always found very, very interesting. I'm really interested in prehistory generally when we, when we look at the structures that we have in the Channel Islands, it just completely blown my mind. So I can understand how through your demonstrations, you really bring all that to life. So I can't, I can't even begin to say how valuable the work that you do is. And we're so grateful that Jersey Heritage that you come and do your amazing demonstrations and your craftsmanship. So thank you very much for joining us today, James.

James (01:05:59):

It's been a pleasure. It's, it's great to be back on Jersey.

Mel (01:06:02):

Well, it's great to have you back and enjoy the Centenary weekend at the Hook Bay. If you enjoy today's episode, don't forget to click on the subscribe button for more.