Our Weird and Wonderful Collection

In today's episode, hosts Mel and Perry are joined by Rouen Ollivier, the museum registrar.  Rouen shares some insight into our weird and wonderful collection and some of the stories that accompany the items.  From the day to day elements of caring for over 750,000 items to the events which bring forward memories of times gone by.

Rouen talks about 'modern' items in the collection from Super Mario to Pokemon cards, to the 90 samplers in our textiles collection.

She also tells the story of one of the strangest items in the Jersey Heritage Collection,  framed fragment of Philip Carteret's hair. Taken from his coffin in St. Ouen's Chruch in 1869.  They also discuss more strange items dating from the 17th century called 'witches balls'.

Support our work caring for Jersey's collections by making a donation at Support | Jersey Heritage

Transcript

The Jersey Heritage Podcast: The Small Island, Big Story Sessions

Our Weird and Wonderful Collection with Rouen Ollivier

Perry (00:02):

Welcome to the Jersey Heritage Podcast,

Mel (00:05):

The Small Island Big Story sessions.

Perry (00:08):

You are listening to Mel and Perry.

Mel (00:11):

In today's episode, we are joined by Rouen Ollivier, our museum registrar. Rowan, is going to be sharing some insight into our weird and wonderful collection and some of the stories that accompany the items

Perry (00:25):

Today. We've got Rowan, our museum registrar. Welcome, Rowan. So tell us what, what's your day to day like as a museum registrar, you know, what, what's your kind of main thing that you work on?

Rouen (00:37):

So my job's basically taking care, well, helping to take care of the collection. Jersey Heritage Collection, the Islands collection. So this looks like cataloging, auditing also flagging anything that needs conservation work done from our conservators. And also a lot of sharing with the public. So whether that be social media talks and tours. We also do a, meet the collection session every month on a Saturday where we get objects out, usually based on a theme. But this allows people to view some of the items that are usually in storage that they, they wouldn't otherwise see. 'cause We do have like about 750,000 Wow. Objects and, and documents. That includes archeology, archives, art, and social history. So it's not just the museum side. But yeah, we look after a lot of things. When we do meet the collection, we do also do store tours so that you can see behind the scenes. We also do a tour of the lab sometimes that our conservators work in. So they're usually based up at the Francis Cook Gallery, but we do also do them at the archive where we'll do a tour of the conservation lab there as well. So yeah,

Perry (02:01):

The meet the collections are, are really cool actually. 'cause We just did one this well last Saturday where it was like hobbies and pastimes, wasn't it? Mm-Hmm <affirmative>. So we had the, we managed to get an old CRTV, sorry, CRT screen TV up. Mm-Hmm <affirmative>. Up and running with like original Super Mario <laugh> playing on the, the screen. So in, in downtime we were playing quite a lot of that.

Rouen (02:25):

Yeah. our conservators are great, so they tend to be able to get anything up and running. We also had an old gram phone playing, which was really nice. Yeah. Hand cranked. Very

Mel (02:38):

Nice. And that's the one that you controlled the volume through opening, closing the doors,

Rouen (02:41):

<Laugh>. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Which

Mel (02:43):

I thought was amazing. That's how they monitored the sound. Yeah.

Rouen (02:46):

Yeah.

Perry (02:46):

That was a really cool thing. And you just had to kind of stand there and just keep Yeah. Keep, keep cranking the wheel to get it working, you

Rouen (02:52):

Know? Yeah. So the spring in that one I think is, 'cause obviously it's sold, it's going slightly, but it, so you have to do, you do have to keep winding it, it sounds a bit demonic after a while. Yeah. <Laugh>,

Speaker 4 (03:02):

It sounds a bit haunted when it starts spread.

Mel (03:04):

Yeah. Especially in the old hall. Yeah.

Rouen (03:06):

Yeah.

Mel (03:07):

And what are some of your fav, what's some of your favorite elements of your job here at Jersey Heritage?

Rouen (03:12):

I just really love working with older objects. Mostly the story behind them. A lot of our objects don't always have a story behind them, but you can kind of imagine one. And it kind of feels like you are peering through a window into to the lives of people who would've used these in the past. 'cause A lot of them are kindly donated from the public. So they would've been used at, at one point in time. Some of them have like, wear and tear that you can see. And I think it's nice to just be able to kind of imagine people not dissimilar to us in the past using, whether that be like a hundred years ago or yeah, even 150,000 years ago. We have things from a long span of time. I think I also love my job because I, I can help to keep these stories alive and to share them with future generations. Like the work that we're doing now, someone a hundred years in the future will also be able to look through that window that I looked through and have a view into the lives of people. Mm. Yeah.

Mel (04:28):

Yeah. 'cause It's, it's a really important role because when you think about museum registrars and like, the whole purpose of their role is to, is to share the stories of the people that had these items. So what, in terms of the importance of when people donate an object to the museum, how important is it that they leave as much information as possible?

Rouen (04:53):

So, yeah. So that's actually probably the most Im important part. Like, we, we do, as I say, we do have a lot of things 'cause we've been collecting, we took over the Tase collection. So we have been, we have got things that have been collected for over 150 years. And a lot of them, as it did start as like a, a group, more of a kind of a hobby I guess. There isn't always great documentation. So now we try our best to get as much information as we can. 'cause That's kind of the whole point, is to keep those stories alive. So for museum objects, the best way is to email us at registrar team@jerseyheritage.org. If it's archives, then it would go to archives@jerseyheritage.org. But we'd ask that you provide a description of the item, a photograph, and any details you have about the object and its story in as much detail as possible. We, we can't accept everything due to storage issues. And also we have a collecting policy and acquisitions policy, and it depends on whether we already have examples of, of that item in the collection, or whether it has a strong Jersey connection is quite important. We don't tend to collect anything that's not really Jersey related. Mm-Hmm <affirmative>. Well, we don't like, yeah. Well

Mel (06:18):

That makes sense.

Rouen (06:20):

If your item is accepted into the collection, it'll be cataloged and made available for research. It's unlikely that the item will go on display straight away as we have thousands of items and exhibitions are planned years in advance. And also if your object is something that we do already have examples of we can, we do also have a handling collection, which we use in outreach projects like working with schools and like what I do Exactly.

Mel (06:49):

Other than the podcast. Yeah. When I actually go and do things to be with physical people as opposed to microphones, <laugh>. Yeah.

Rouen (06:56):

Yeah.

Mel (06:56):

The real people. Not saying you're not real people. Lessness, just say

Perry (07:00):

The value, the value in having an object in the collection isn't, it's not only that this thing should go on display, is it because it's useful having objects in, in a safe place where they can be researched in the future mm-hmm <affirmative>. Through various means. And, and maybe even means that we don't even have at the moment in regards to archeology and stuff. 

Rouen (07:17):

Yeah, exactly.

Perry (07:18):

You know, and sometimes people might keep hold of something really important and then, you know, the years go on and, and they die and then, you know, the descendants might not care about it. And that's, that's how so many of these objects get destroyed, you know? So yeah. By having an important object in the collection, it means that, you know, it's available for future generations and it's kept in a safe place looked after by conservators, you know. So I think sometimes people think everything should be on display at all times. Mm. It's just not, it's not really feasible. But that doesn't mean there's no value in having it Yeah. In the collection.

Rouen (07:56):

So another part of my job, quite a big part actually, is we, we get a lot of inquiries about stuff that's about things that are in the collection. So yeah, you are right. A lot of it is people researching and having these, these things and recording them and everything that we know about them, people do want that information. So

Perry (08:16):

Yeah. And it, it happens a lot. I think sometimes people think, oh, there's no like actual active research ongoing, but there's, there's always, there's like a constant stream of people, you know, I can speak more about archeology mm-hmm. But there's always people in looking at the archeology you know coming up with new research and, and kind of writing about stuff. Mm-Hmm. And I'm sure that happens in, you know, the occupation collections. Mm-Hmm <affirmative>. And basically all of them. The textiles. I think there was some stuff recently.

Rouen (08:43):

Yeah. Militia a lot. Well,

Mel (08:44):

That's actually really interesting 'cause when Ronan and I did a session up at Lamoi Prison this summer, and we so part of our color, our collection, so some of, so what, what we've done is part of the outreach program was we've created some of our art, some of our famous art pieces, and we've converted them into coloring sheets, quite large pieces that then people can color or paint or collage or whatever their medium, whatever they prefer to do. And one of a nice bit of teamwork that we did in terms of bringing kind of the, the workshop to life was Rowan came with me and we were doing this whole piece about Elizabeth Castle by a, an artist called George Wolf. And Rowan brought some pieces from Elizabeth Castle's the militia exhibition, I believe it was some textiles. And we had some documents. And Rowan accompanied me and we, we have, so we had these items on the table and it just completely lifts the whole workshop completely. Just really brings everything to the forefront. It's really good for them to hear the, hear the history, but to actually see it is a completely different experience. So that kind of, that kind of collaboration across the organization is really, really important and really interesting.

Perry (09:59):

Like, objects really help people like connect with the past. Absolutely. You know, in, in like as you're saying, we can talk about, you know, 150,000 years ago or, or objects from even, you know, fairly recent. Like, you know, those old TVs we had out Yeah. You know, that we remember from actually Yeah. You know, in our lifetime. Exactly. But, but the stuff disappears so quickly sometimes you don't even realize. And that's why it's important to like, collect stuff that people would think aren't even that old a lot of the time. Yeah.

Rouen (10:27):

So we do collect a lot of contemporary objects too. So we're not just confined to older or more historic. We do collect for the future as well. That's a large part of

Perry (10:40):

Like those lovely Pokemon cards that were out there other day, <laugh>, I was look at those and I was like, I know. It was like, I was like reminiscing. I was like, these are, these are the cards I had, you know, in the Yeah. In the early, mid nineties or whatever, you know. Yeah. The,

Mel (10:51):

What was that super rare one that you spotted that you were just like, oh my God, if

Perry (10:55):

I'd had that back in day? The vapor in there, man,

Rouen (10:57):

<Laugh>,

Perry (10:58):

I thinking, because I was talking to, you know, my mom basically threw away as, as it happened to, to most, most collections of fads back in the day. Mm-Hmm <affirmative>. You know, your parents go Right, well, he's like old enough, he doesn't really care about it now, so we're gonna give it away or something. And you're like, if I still had all that in like pristine condition, I'd be minted. Yeah.

Rouen (11:19):

Which

Perry (11:19):

Isn't really the point of comedy.

Rouen (11:20):

Nice one, mom. Yeah,

Perry (11:22):

I know. Nice one. Well,

Mel (11:23):

From Pokemon cards, we're gonna go back into the textile. I'm really interested in the textile section of the of the collection. Because I remember again when we did a little, a little tour, you showed me some amazing embroidery. And I believe, if I'm not wrong, they're called the samplers.

Rouen (11:42):

So we have over 90 samplers in our textiles collection. Oh, nice. The oldest of which dates from 1736 and the most recent is 1943. So sampler is a piece of embroidery that was usually made by young girls to practice or demonstrate their needlework skill. They usually have the alphabets numbers, motifs decorative borders. Mm-Hmm <affirmative>. So a lot of them also have the name and the date of the person who made them, which is really useful for family history research. Yeah. because it kind of gives a a little view into what their lives back then. So so the name sampler derives from medieval French. It, the word isam player, dunno if I'm pronouncing that correctly, but did

Mel (12:33):

I, you gave it a gross. So that's the main thing.

Rouen (12:36):

Which means a kind of model or pattern to copy. So before printed patterned pattern books became available the only way designs could be shared was by doing it right there mm-hmm <affirmative>. And creating a, a small example of it. And then these would be passed around and shared. So whenever a woman saw a a new or interesting pattern, she would sew it onto a piece of cloth. And this is how patterns spread throughout Europe and the Middle East. It, the collecting of patterns accelerated in the late 15th and 16th centuries just because it became fashionable for needlework to decorate clothing and furnishings. And also people were exploring and traveling a lot more. So by the 16th century needlework also displayed wealth and status 'cause it showed that you could afford to, to travel. The earliest reference to a sampler in England appears in 1502 in the household expense accounts of Henry VII's wife Elizabeth of York. Oh,

Mel (13:46):

I love Elizabeth of York.

Rouen (13:49):

So on the 10th of July that year, Thomas Fish was paid for an elm of linen cloth for a sampler for the queen. The earliest surviving sampler is in the v and a collection, and it was signed by a Jane Bostock and dated 1598. Wow.

Mel (14:08):

So that's the earliest sampler in the world.

Rouen (14:12):

Yeah, I think that we know of. Right. We do have a record of one in 1502, but yeah, the VNAs one is the earliest one we have in a collection that's known of,

Perry (14:24):

And we've got is that, we've got a display of one of those in, in Hampton. Do we? There's one up on the wall.

Rouen (14:30):

Yeah. So lots of people remember them as being kind of decorative pieces that go on the wall. Which I guess they did become so families would put them on the wall put on the wall ones that were made by ancestors. But yeah, they, they weren't, but

Mel (14:47):

Previous to that they were actually a

Rouen (14:49):

Functioning piece

Mel (14:50):

Of like showing someone their skill. I used to think that these samplers were teaching tools. They were just like fancy teaching tools to teach kids like alphabet and numbers. But then obviously when I saw them and listening to Ron and Helena talk about it, I was like, oh, that's actually even in, it's even more interesting that they were demonstrating a talent as opposed to just a tool for education. So that's, it's interesting how you see something in the collection. You've had this perception of what you think it is, and then you actually come and see something and you learn about its actual history, which is fascinating really. 'cause Then you see things in different light.

Rouen (15:26):

Well, you are, you, you are, you are. Right. So they were used for showing skill between well, they were used to share designs between women and then in schools they would've been used or not even in schools, but just by teachers to, to young children. They would've also been used to practice embroidery letters, et cetera. So the majority of hours date from the 19th century and they were mostly worked by girls between the ages of five and 11.

Perry (15:58):

I suppose it would've, as you said before, it's like it'd be mostly kind of upper class well off people, wouldn't it? Yeah. 'cause They're, they're sort of well educated enough that they can read and write, let alone kind of, you know, from the age of five Yeah. Be stitching these things.

Rouen (16:13):

Yeah. So they were mostly done by girls. But in our own collection, we do actually have four that were worked by boys. Three of whom were from the gossip family. So yeah, majority were done by girls, but do have but

Mel (16:29):

Much done by

Rouen (16:30):

Wow. Evidence of

Mel (16:31):

Yeah. That's interesting.

Perry (16:33):

They're kind of an interesting kind of look into, I dunno if you'd necessarily call it, I guess it's like a hobby, isn't it? But it's also something that I guess you would expected to do as well. Yeah. But it, it's an interesting kind of artistic thing that you can see women doing. And it's quite a nice early example of that, you know, because hobbies and pastimes, you know, weren't really a thing until,

Rouen (16:58):

Yeah. Many of the ones that we have in our collection actually have similar border patterns and design. So it, it kind of shows that it was probably taught by the same teacher to all of these different children. But just with varying levels of skill,

Mel (17:16):

Research your family history at the Jersey Archive, dive into our vast online catalog or visit in person. Our expert staff wait to guide you on your journey. We're open Monday to Thursday, nine till one, then Friday, two till five. Subscribe Today, one of the coolest items in the collection was a tiny little radio inside of Walnut. So tell us a little bit more about that. 'cause That, I thought that item was really, really interesting.

Rouen (17:49):

So we have a little walnut with parts of a crystal radio inside of it which was used during the occupation. This was created by a gentleman named Bernard Holly. He left school at the age of 14 and began working as an apprentice at w Coles Wireless shop on how could place in St. Helia. We also have his registration card at the archive. 

Perry (18:18):

That's such a complicated thing to make. I literally wouldn't even know how to put a radio together that alone in a, in a walnut of all things. Yeah.

Mel (18:25):

Well, what I find interesting though is that the crystal radios is that people would've just like found anything they had lying around to make these things, which is crazy 'cause how resourceful do you have to be to make a crystal radio and a tiny

Perry (18:37):

One. But Harry and Neil could do it.

Mel (18:39):

Yeah. If anyone could do it, Harry and Neil could do it.

Rouen (18:42):

In the early years if the occupation owners were allowed to keep their wireless sets. But in 1942, the occupying forces ordered that they take that all of them had to be handed in. But the shop actually, the shop that he worked at Mr. Coles remained open during the occupation. Occupation. but only two employees were allowed to work there. He worked alone in the shop service department. And when they had to hand them in, when the Germans asked them all to be handed in they actually only handed in old or like obsolete radios and help hid the, the be ones underneath floorboards in the workshop. Wow. that's cool. The shop was actually searched by German soldiers on one occasion, but they didn't find any of the cer luckily. 'cause If they had, they would've been, well, Mr.

Rouen (19:34):

Holly would've been imprisoned or worse. And although the shop could no longer sell radios, they did continue to work with them with electrical work. Sorry. And then for the remainder of the occupation, Mr. Hollywood actually secretly help islanders to fix and repair their hidden wireless sets so that they could continue to listen to, to the news. Sometimes the customers would bring the wireless sets to the shop around the back entrance. But a lot of times he would actually travel to people's houses across the island to repair their sewing machines, which obviously he was actually not Oh, code. Yeah. he estimated that the shop probably produced about 90 Chris Crystal radio sets for customers during occupation, which were which he also delivered across the island. Which was extremely dangerous, obviously, because if he got caught, he would've been imprisoned or even killed. He did actually come very close to being stopped and searched while carrying out a delivery, but got away with it. After the occupation, he went on to become a partner in, in Cole's television services. And he worked there until he retired in 2002.

Mel (20:53):

So what an amazing story.

Perry (20:54):

2002, that's like so recent. Mm-Hmm

Rouen (20:56):

<Affirmative>. He died in 2011 at age 87.

Perry (21:00):

Wow. Was that really brave guy? He must have been really young when he was doing that.

Rouen (21:03):

I think he was. Yeah. So he, it was his first and only job, so it was all he he'd ever done.

Mel (21:11):

I'd never heard of his story before. That's really, that's a really, really amazing story. And the fact, let's

Perry (21:15):

Try and get it working.

Rouen (21:16):

It's only parts of Crystal radio. It's not a full crystal radio. It's just, it's just parts that he hid inside of, of all now.

Perry (21:22):

Oh, I see. I was imagining it like

Mel (21:25):

I was imagining like a fully punched

Perry (21:26):

You turn the

Rouen (21:26):

Walnut on. That's what I thought as well when I found,

Mel (21:28):

So turn on the walnut.

Perry (21:30):

Can someone put the walnut on?

Mel (21:32):

Oh, that would be cute. That'd be cute. That's a good code name as well for switching on the radio. Walnut

Perry (21:36):

Radio

Mel (21:37):

Switch on the walnut. Another really interesting item from the collection, if like, 'cause we're talking around the occupation time was this Russian wooden, wooden pecking toy? I remember seeing that in the collection.

Rouen (21:49):

Yeah. So this is a it's basically wooden birds, which are attached to strings. And then when it's, when the bat is moved on, on the toy, then it causes the birds to move and it, it appears to be pecking the base. It's based on a traditional wooden Russian toy. And it was made in Jersey by an escaped Russian prisoner of war as a thank you gift to the, a family that helped him for their to, to their young daughter. But when he gave the gift to the young daughter, he realized that they were actually twins. So then he made <laugh>, he made an extra one for the other twins. No way. And we actually, we have a photo of both of the, the twins and it was them who donated it to the collection, so.

Perry (22:41):

Oh, that's so sweet. Yeah. So he made it like after the occupation or so

Rouen (22:45):

We actually don't know anymore about him. Or like how he became, came to be a prisoner or, or what he did after the occupation. All we know is that he, this family helped them helped him. Sorry. And he made these as a thank you. But it's quite a nice piece 'cause it, it kind of gives an insight into relationships that were built and and also a lot, it gives a bit of an insight about Russian prisoners who were on the island at the time. So, but yeah, we don't have much more information other than that.

Perry (23:20):

And the kind of acts of resistance against the yeah. You know, against the occupiers, you know, even like how these acts of kindness can be so dangerous to do, but yet people still do them, you know?

Rouen (23:31):

Yeah, that's, that's true. That's really nice point that, that, that was kind of that family's way of resisting, I guess, was helping.

Mel (23:37):

Yeah, absolutely. And it's a, it's a really beautiful piece. Like when I've seen, when I've seen it, it's really intricately made. It's very delicate and it's amazing that we actually still have it. And hopefully, you know, the part of the collection is looking after these items so that future generations can learn something from them, but also like, hear these amazing stories. There was also a really beautiful ship that was built that I remember you showing when you showed us around the tour. This amazing ship that's built out of, well, I guess Ron you can describe it to us.

Rouen (24:09):

So these ships were made during the Napoleonic war by prisoners of war. There, there are about 200,000 prisoners of war in Britain during the Napoleonic period. And many of them were held on dismantled or, or de rigged warships known as Hulks which were anchored off the south coast of England. So the model ships usually consisted of a wooden hull with carved pieces of pieces of bone Wow. Pinned onto the wood. Cool. the rigging would also be made from human hair, horse hair, silk, or any other materials that the prisoners could source. So the bones were generally taken from animal bones, from their food rations. They'd be cleaned and bleached and then used to, to build the boats, but they they would often work in groups to construct them and they would also, the prison guards would help source materials for these because then they would sell them and the prison guards would get a cut of the profit and then they would use whatever money that they made to purchase extra food or, or rations. 'cause They didn't have much. But yeah, it's quite a, a huge ship and it's really, really pretty. 

Mel (25:28):

Another interesting part of the collection is that we have quite a lot of weird items in our collection in terms of don't really make much sense mm-hmm <affirmative>. But there is one in particular that I, I remember seeing and thinking that's unusual. And that was some hair. If you could maybe shed some more light for our listeners about the hair.

Rouen (25:51):

Yeah. So we have a framed fragment of Philip RA's hair. So this was actually taken from his coffin in St. Juan's Church when it was opened in July, 1869. But he'd actually died Elizabeth Castle on August the 23rd in 1643. So they took his grave <laugh>, they dug his grave back up God, and took a piece of his hair and it set into an arch shaped gold painted carved wooden frame. And that's all of the information that we have on that <laugh>. We have no idea why very

Mel (26:31):

Carb. It's just very, yeah. Yeah.

Rouen (26:34):

We have actually got that out before for a meet the collections and we had very mixed opinions. Lots of people were horrified but also very fascinated. Yeah. And, but you can see bits of like dirt and

Perry (26:45):

They weren't squeamish was it the 19th century back then? They loved to Yeah. Messing around with bones and graves and stuff, didn't they? Apparently.

Rouen (26:53):

And

Mel (26:53):

What about those, I remember that also that you guys brought out these amazing, they look like bo balls, but they're not actually ball balls, but they're made out of glass and they're known as the witches balls. And I remember we took them out as part of our popup exhibition that we did down at CL Morrow. And I remember that being an item that everyone found absolutely fascinating. 'cause Everyone loves a good witch story. So can you tell us a little bit about the witches balls?

Rouen (27:22):

Yeah. So these were usually hollow spheres of glass in the use in the 17th and 18th century. In England. They were usually hung in the window between the curtains to ward off e evil spirits witches spells or ill fortune. They were mostly used in rural cottages of coastal towns and cities. We have two in our collection. They don't have much backstory to them, but we do have two examples in, in our collection. I think one's a blue color and one's a yellow color. Yeah. Yeah. But they, you could also see examples of them in shop windows as well. 

Perry (28:02):

There's lots of cool objects that shop in, in kind of old houses like that. You get like shoes in the, in the kind of chimney space. And you get these bottles with a, we've had a couple of witch bottles in Jersey as well, where it would be. Is this

Mel (28:14):

Part of your fines? 

Perry (28:16):

I've not had them in as fines but they are written about in the book Old Jersey Houses. Oh. There's some, there's some examples of them found here.

Mel (28:25):

I need to give that a read. 

Perry (28:27):

Yeah, it's really interesting. And I guess they're kind of given the name as like a witch bottle, but really they're kind of ward off <laugh>, you know, magic and, and kind of evil spirits or

Mel (28:38):

Stuff. Yeah. Like good luck charms.

Perry (28:39):

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So but I'm always so interested in stuff like that and how prevalent was it here? And I mean, so much of that stuff's just been lost when houses has been renovated and people just go, oh, what's that? I try that way, you

Mel (28:53):

Know? Well, you just have to listen to our witch trials episodes to know that Jersey has quite a prominent history Yeah.

Perry (28:59):

With

Mel (28:59):

The witch trials. And I guess there was a lot of public fear around it, so,

Rouen (29:04):

Well they actually, they're called witch balls, but there is some people do think that they're actually called watch balls. So watch balls. And then it just changed over time to which balls that they were watching over the people in the house or and, and there's also some evidence that they would then what we now have as Christmas ball balls on the tree. Oh. 

Mel (29:29):

So me describing them as a Christmas ball balls like actually could be a potentially legit thing.

Rouen (29:34):

Yeah. So there is reference to that. It's not necessarily true, but I have seen reference to that before that it they did then evolve eventually into Christmas Bob Ball.

Mel (29:43):

So our Bob Balls on the tree are technically like these just good luck charms to keep our house safe. The archive, if I'm not mistaken, does a stock take of our collection to make sure that everything's running in order and everything's cataloged the way it should be. And I distinctly remember you telling me about you cataloging the Claude Cahoon Photographic collection and your relationship to that. So can we, can you maybe share a little bit of that for our listeners?

Rouen (30:10):

I had to go through the whole collection and check that they're, they were all there. Basically that's, we do that with a lot of our collection. We go through and do audits as frequently as possible to just make sure that they're all there and they're all in good order. So yeah, for the first, my first stock take I went through the clog collection which was really, really interesting. So I hadn't actually heard about Claude until I'd started working at Heritage. And a lot of people actually haven't, she's really well known in the art world, I think, but not lots of people know about her. So it was really fun to, you

Perry (30:52):

Gotta have a look, a look at a lot of, a lot of the photographs that aren't even that well known and maybe not even digitized in a lot of places. Didn't you like, there's a lot of just kind of more, I don't wanna say mundane, but more of the normal photographs of just Claude and Marcel, just like their general life and their kind of, you know, just personal photographs, didn't you?

Rouen (31:12):

Yeah. So we have loads of photos that I think Marcel Moore took after Claude had passed. So a lot of her own personal photos. So the house that she lived in down as an urbans after she'd moved from the house in brs. And going through those was really nice. 'cause We don't, those aren't obviously very popular. They're not ones that that tore around the world or but it was nice to see a kind of personal look into their lives. Although there are probably about 50 foes of rocks, which is not that exciting. It's still interesting to see unless you're

Mel (31:50):

A geologist. Yeah,

Rouen (31:51):

<Laugh>.

Perry (31:52):

Yeah. But I don't think they've changed much.

Rouen (31:54):

No.

Mel (31:54):

But what I found really amazing is, so in my mind the Claude Cahoon images are these really big images. But actually when you were, I remember you telling me that when you were stock taking, they were really small.

Rouen (32:07):

Yeah. Lots of people are really surprised when when they see them on on show in exhibitions. They're actually really tiny. Another really cool thing about the claw collection is some of them we got as negatives. So a lot of them Claude and Marcel wouldn't have even seen developed themselves. So it was really cool to go through the collection and to, to see these photos that they probably didn't think, they had no idea were gonna be world famous, let alone even seen in the future. So that was really interesting and yeah, I'm very grateful for that.

Perry (32:46):

As you said, they're quite they're quite popular like internationally for people to be coming over and looking at them. But sometimes it's not always safe to get objects out as it's sometimes like we have to think about the how much exposure they can have to sunlight and people touching them. I mean, are those, are there many objects that we just can't have out?

Rouen (33:07):

So the claw collection is actually closed now. It used to tour all over the world. We'll go out on loan all over the world, I should say. But we've had a look at it, well, we had a conservator come in and have a look at it and it was actually advised that we close the collection just, just due to some wear that they could see nothing that would be obvious to the, the naked eye, but a trained professional could see that there was, if it kept going out, it would've been damaged. So that is a decision that we had to make, which is that's

Mel (33:42):

The duty of care.

Rouen (33:42):

Right. Unfortunate, but it's a part of what we do is so we decided to close that collection. That's not to say that it is closed forever. Researchers can still apply to see it. There is an application process. Mm-Hmm. 

Mel (33:57):

Then you can, you can, but we do have some of them on display at the moment in La De but they're gonna be displayed on a rotational basis to make sure that they get their rest time. Yeah, exactly.

Rouen (34:08):

And then they will, once something's been, once something from the clock collection has been viewed or displayed, it then has to be closed for six months. So yeah, that's why we have to make sure that the, the reason that they're being taken out is important because it then has to be closed and no one can see it for another six months. So it's something we have to

Mel (34:31):

Be mindful of. Exactly.

Perry (34:32):

But a lot of them are, are like digitized too. Right. So, you know, if it was simply that you just wanted to, to view the photo, then we, we've got great digitizations of everything. It's more, you know, these the kind of the physical photographs themselves and the negatives which are quite prone to wear, you know? Yeah. From, from all sorts of stuff. Sunlight, just the oils on people's hands sort of stuff that needs to be thought about. And that's, and that's why, you know, when we spoke to, to Neil and Harry, like we have to have these trained conservators constantly looking, looking at this stuff and Lisa and, and Laura Hmm.

Mel (35:05):

The archive. Yeah. But I think what fascinates me about, about your role is that you must develop a real personal like relationship and bond to these like collection to these pieces because you know, you are learning, you're getting really up close and personal, some of them and you are learning so much about things that not everyone gets the opportunity to see. So that, that must be really special for you and the collections team to have that, that relationship with, with these items.

Rouen (35:34):

Yeah. I did go <laugh>, yeah. When I was doing stock taking I did then afterwards get really into Ummour and Kaine's life and was reading lots of books about them and did really feel a personal collection to them. And I think lots of people as well. That's why it's so important that we make these accessible to the public because it is such a view into their lives. So especially the occupation in Jersey as well, they were so, so re like so prominent

Perry (36:04):

Saying like, the thing, the thing about, as we were saying before, like the connection to the objects and seeing these things can be quite inspiring. Not only just as a, as a historical interest thing, but for artists today, you know, and a lot of the people that look at the, for example, the called Cahun collection is artists making new art and, and they're looking for inspiration from, from old art, you know?

Rouen (36:27):

Yeah. So that's actually another thing that we do. So we get a lot of requests for people wanting to use existing artworks in our collection for future projects that they're working on and exhibitions and things. So Claude is probably the most popular out of all of our collection when it comes to repro reproductions. And so if, if someone wanted to put her works on display, we do allow them to reproduce digital high resolution copies and then they can be displayed in that way rather than the originals going out. So they are still being seen.

Mel (37:07):

And what is the process if somebody wanted to do that? Do they just have to email you guys or do they have to email the archive?

Rouen (37:13):

So yeah, email, well either really, but it directly to ours would be registrar team at jersey heritage.org. And then yeah, there's a form that you fill out and yeah, we talk you through that.

Mel (37:26):

Thank you very much, Ryan, for joining us on today's episode.

Rouen (37:29):

Thank you for having me. <Laugh>.

Mel (37:33):

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