Jèrriais ‘Our Island speaks’

In today's episode, hosts, Mel and Perry are talking all things Jèrriais, exploring place names, practical uses of our native language, and how Jèrriais helps us discover our Island's history.

From La Corbière to Rouge Bouillon, what do these Jèrriais place names tell us about the language and its use?

Tracy Peters, Jèrriais Language Officer, will share some interesting facts about our 'gem of the sea' and what more we can do to continue its legacy. 

Why did Jèrriais stop being spoken and where did the language go during the 18th century?  What is being done now to encourage new speakers?

To support our work you can make a donation at www.jerseyheritage.org/support 

Transcript

The Jersey Heritage Podcast: The Small Island, Big Story Sessions

Jerriais ‘Our Island speaks’ with  Tracy Peters

Perry (00:02):

Welcome to the Jersey Heritage Podcast, the Small Island Big Story sessions. You are listening to Mel and Perry. In today's episode, we are going to be talking all things Jerriais, exploring place names, practical uses of our native language, and how we hold onto our GE Roots. Roots.

Mel (00:20):

We are joined by Tracy, who will be sharing some pretty interesting facts about our gem of the sea and what more we can do to continue its legacy.

Mel (00:30):

Welcome, Tracy. Thank you for joining us today. Thank you. I kind of wanted to jump right in at the deep end with this topic because Jerry, I think it's safe to say that Perry and I find this this topic really fascinating and we know that you do too, obviously. Oh, <laugh>. So I kind of just wanted to start with where, where do you think this language went? Where did it go and why did we kind of lose it?

Tracy (00:55):

Okay, so you are looking at really a few different things that affected the language. One of which is at the end of the 18th century when the travel was so much easier to the island, you started to get rich people, rich English people coming over and buying land and creating a new city in St. Helia. Not that it's quite a city, but you know, this idea of a much more rich place to live.

Tracy (01:33):

And so they start building houses, they start trading in English, and that's when you start to get people working for them. They work for them. They possibly bring Sherry into the house, but it's not gonna help them when they're asking if you want, you know, what, what should they bring for tea or whatever. So they're gonna have to start speaking in English. Mm-Hmm. So that is a, a really big time when the language starts to change at that time as well, because you're having the building of St. Hellier which at the time was like a muddy marsh sand dune kind of place. You're having all these roads built and they start to get English names. And so some of them are pretty ironic. You know, you've got like Drury Lane, the center of the theater, which actually a muddy backwater in Alia. You know, you've got bond Street, oh, the most fashionable place in London.

Tracy (02:32):

Again, muddy bought water in an earlier, you know, <laugh>. So they're quite aspirational and quite ironic names a lot of the time. But you're starting to get the English taking over from Ger and the French obviously, 'cause it's kind of a one hell of a mixture going on at the time. Mm. But all languages are a story of contact. So you are, anytime you get contact with another culture, you are going to start to change the language. Unfortunately, forger, this becomes a dominant language. English becomes a dominant language, then you've got first World War. So you've got lots of people leaving the island, unfortunately, losing their lives, possibly never coming back. They're taking their language with them. You've got the second World War, you know, you had nearly 10,000 people according to Mary Jones. I know there are different figures, but it was between six and 10,000 leaving the island.

Tracy (03:32):

And they may well have been je a speakers, nobody knows very likely there were a percentage of JE a speakers, but even if they weren't Jerry speakers, they will have been aware of ge. They've taken it off the island with them and a lot of them didn't come back. And if they did come back, they went as babies and children Five years later, they are not speaking ge. Yeah, of course. 'cause Their minds are like sponges, aren't they? So they're just gonna adapt to whatever environment they're going to. Yeah. And when they came back, they often didn't bother trying to learn them because they could have relearnt their mother tongue, but they often didn't bother because by then there were so many English people trading and French in the government there just, there just probably wasn't the, the motivation to do it. Although obviously it was still kept in the rural parishes as storytelling, as passing on tradition as a family language. But it just wasn't used as much as it had been before. A lot of the native speakers tell me that during the 1950s, that was the point when they feel that it really started to lose, like, just completely disappear. A lot of English people moved over after the Second World War, quite comparison to moving here from, you know, COVID because we didn't have as bad a situation as some other places. Mm. And so you've got that contact again, but with English there is a dominance. So you start to lose jere.

Perry (04:59):

It's like with, with so many kind of aspects of heritage, people don't really start to to realize it needs saving until it's, it's almost gone, you know? Yes. Yeah. Like people don't think about things at the time Yeah. Until they're under threat. Yeah.

Tracy (05:13):

Well it had this sort of multifaceted problem in that because it wasn't proper, and I'm doing my little fingers here 'cause it wasn't proper invert commas, people <laugh>. Yes. Because it wasn't proper French. A lot of people certainly in the urban areas considered it to be you know, a country pumpkin language, a lesser language. People were made to feel embarrassed if they spoke it. Some people were punished for speaking it, and so they didn't pass it on to their, to their next generation because it was kind of a bit of an embarrassment that they spoke it.

Perry (05:52):

And that's kind of a parallel in, in many other minority languages Absolutely. Isn't it? Across the world.

Tracy (05:57):

Absolutely.

Perry (05:58):

And, and also to a degree, I mean the, the jersey accent as well, which kind of probably disappeared, would you agree around the fifties or so as well? Or?

Tracy (06:07):

I think it's later,

Perry (06:08):

A bit later,

Tracy (06:09):

But, but the, the jersey accent is actually a leftover of she. Yeah. So the jersey accent is English with Aje stress. Yeah. And people say it sounds like South African. Yeah. And it does. It does. Yeah. But, but it's actually, if you learn Jerry, it's the stress of Jerry put into English.

Perry (06:26):

Yeah. Because I, my, my grand is was born in 1942 or something and she said, and I think that she got rid of the accident on purpose basically just because it was, as you said, kind of considered a, a sort of improper way to speak, you know?

Tracy (06:41):

Well, Perry, coming from the east end, I can get that <laugh>. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Perry (06:45):

<Laugh>.

Tracy (06:47):

Yeah. It's really interesting how from the conversations we've had in terms of the Jerry, generally it opens the doors to so much awareness of our island. Absolutely. Because it's everywhere. It's, it's all over our landscape. Mm-Hmm <affirmative>. And what I find interesting is we, we talked about this before Tracy, before we started recording in terms of last time you said like, lamarre means salt marsh. Yeah. Yeah. And that is fascinating to me because that really makes you, helps you to understand what the kind of, like this, that's actually really multifaceted really. It's really layered in terms of you're not just thinking about Right. Obviously salt marsh, but you are thinking about like the archeology of a place, like the geology, like the landscape, the wildlife potentially that gives you such a richness of information. I mean, I'm really, really keen on looking forward forger. I don't have a belief that everybody is going to be fluent in it within the next 20 years.

Tracy (07:41):

No matter how many people I, I try and get to learn it or the, or the jersey teaching service try and get to learn it or anything. I don't believe it will happen. I think we've gone too far. But Jerry has a place in the future and that's what I'm trying to make people aware of. And one of those is through place names. So you have like key vocab in, in Jersey place names. So you've got Harvard, you know, as in Hal Depart. So that means harbor. Okay. Oh no. So the minute, you know, that means I didn't know that. Oh. That I know what to expect when I go down there. Yeah. You've got Mont, obviously hill. You've got Mary, like you've just said, the, the, the marsh and Sam ray, which is salty marsh. Oh, okay. Sam Ray's a salty marsh <laugh>, you've got dough or, or you would call it ey brook. Mm. I had no idea. Did you know these?

Perry (08:34):

I know, I know them a little, A little bit. Not, not super fluent in them, but we were talking about this recently, weren't we? I dunno if we recorded it on the last one. But we're talking about rouge bion. Yes. Rouge

Tracy (08:44):

Bullion. Yeah. So Rouge bion is a, an example of a mix of French and sherry. And I know you said you, you went, I went to Berlin. I grew up my whole life thinking that it meant red soup.

Perry (08:54):

Yeah, yeah. Well that's what everyone says, isn't it? But that's not the,

Tracy (08:57):

Which isn't surprising. Yeah. Because it is a mixture. It's got thero from French mm-hmm <affirmative>. Because if that was sherry, it would have an extra o isn't it? Okay. but boon means bubbling spring. Wow. Yeah. So I mean it's a similar word to the French word, which would be bubbling broth. Really? Yeah. Yeah. But but no, it means bubbling spring and there was up from that area, a bricks work, A brick works. And the red from the bricks would come down the hill and be on in the earth. So red, hence the name Spring. 'cause There was a, a lot of springs there. Hence you get all the crapo there. So interesting. 'cause I literally, I mean there's so many people that I know that went, that went to Ris Bullion. They always, they had that illusion that, that we just had the most rubbish school name ever. <Laugh>.

Tracy (09:44):

It's nicer, isn't it? It's much nicer than romantic. Yeah. It nice. The beer soup I folks. So yeah. So then you've got like things like Lon, which means fine sand. You've got meel meaning sand, dune port, obviously harbor again. So if I go through a few places that, you know, just so I can explain what they mean and Yeah. So you get this light bulb moment of oh my goodness. You know, so Harbor, which you remember was Harbor. Okay. so you've got Har de Par which is harbor of the footprint. So I'm gonna let you guess whose footprint

Perry (10:22):

Do you know? Or is it Oh, yes. Yeah, <laugh>. Oh, okay. I was thinking maybe it's something to do with the shape of the, of the Bay. Oh,

Tracy (10:28):

Okay. No, no, I have no idea. Don't ask me Bigfoot. <Laugh>

Perry (10:32):

<Laugh>.

Tracy (10:34):

It's, it's just as bizarre really. It's, it's the Virgin Mary's footprint.

Perry (10:38):

Oh, okay.

Tracy (10:39):

Why That's so bizarre. There was a chapel there called the Chapel of Our Lady of the Steps.

Perry (10:45):

Oh,

Tracy (10:46):

I didn't know. But that is according to Legend, where the, the Virgin Mary left her footprints on the rock. So that chapel was destroyed in 1814 by British soldiers to make way for some military housing, which is not there either anymore. But yeah. So that's why you've got halve to park. Well that makes that area a lot more interesting. Now, in my mind, <laugh> only, there's not much left. Obviously. I always like PMO because everybody calls it Mont <laugh>. Yeah. So it's not pronounced like that. It's PP. Yeah. Which I think sounds so much nicer.

Perry (11:20):

I'm gonna, the thing is, I'm gonna, I'm gonna have to start trying to say them properly now and then no one's gonna know what I'm talking about. No. That that's the real problem.

Tracy (11:26):

Well, yes. And they, and there you have it for, you know. Yeah. Yeah. But the nice thing about that though is that you can, if you keep doing it, eventually people are like, oh, do you remember when Perry just kept saying that weird word and turns out it's actually how you say the name of that place and then it catches on and

Perry (11:39):

Then it goes, isn't that guy so annoying? <Laugh>? That's get a PT

Tracy (11:42):

<Laugh>. That piano guy.

Perry (11:44):

<Laugh>.

Tracy (11:45):

Why does he talk like that? So obviously Mont we've said means Hill. Hill, okay. Player comes from the, the p which means folded. Oh, so folded hill. Yeah. Now why would PMO be called Folded Hill? Because it's got that like valley bit. Yeah. So when you look at it, it looks gets folded Hill. But no, as well, we're not talking about the Bay. We're not talking about the the C the the beach. The beach. We're talking about the Hill. Oh, course because that, that's called piano, right? So the beach is called Revo Haw.

Perry (12:25):

What? I know this one. This is a

Tracy (12:27):

Revelation to me.

Perry (12:27):

I know This one. Sand Eel Bay. It's my favorite one actually though.

Tracy (12:31):

I know Sandhill Beach. Yeah, I didn't know that. I didn't know there was two separate names in my mind. That's all. That area is Clemont. Yeah. Well it is for everybody really, isn't it? But that's, we need to change it. Tracy. Yes. Let's, this is not, we have been Fed Lies. We've been lying to

Perry (12:46):

Usre Shaw. That's the, remember that? Is it Greville Haw? Yeah.

Tracy (12:50):

Gre Shaw. Gre Longshore. Yeah. That means Sandel. Yeah. So like you were saying, it tells us so much more. It does. What does it tell us about nature? You're gonna find puffins there because they eat Sandhills

Perry (13:04):

Clever.

Tracy (13:05):

I mean, there's not so many now and there's not so many puffins. I've never seen a puffin. Oh, never. I seen

Perry (13:10):

Them from far are

Tracy (13:10):

Away. Are they tiny? Aren't they really supposed to be really small? Yeah, they're beautiful. I've never seen one. Have you? Oh yeah. Kayaking at <inaudible>. Really? Out from Gvo,

Perry (13:18):

<Inaudible>, <laugh>

Tracy (13:19):

<Laugh>. Oh man. I need to like go puff and hunting. Not, not probably. It's Come on guys. I don't mean like that. I've been like, and sightseeing. Better term. Puff and Hunting. So you've got St. Heller, Ru Delo which I said means sand, fine sand because St. Heller didn't look anything like it looks now. And the sand dunes weren't as far as the Town Church. La Meow. So you've got, which again is sound dunes. Interestingly it said that the name was mistranslated as Five Mile Road because they took Meel to mean Mile.

Perry (14:00):

Oh, that makes a lot of sense.

Tracy (14:02):

Although I'm not sure where they get five from. So I don't, I don't know how that actually fits, but that would make sense that they've mistranslated me out to Yeah,

Perry (14:10):

It's one of those weird ones. 'cause Also everyone says the, the, the island's nine by five and that road sort of in theory travels the entire western side of the island. So I wonder if maybe people maybe thought, 'cause it's sort of, it's

Tracy (14:22):

Nine by five.

Perry (14:24):

It's like three and a half, isn't it really?

Tracy (14:26):

It, yeah, it is. Yeah. Yeah. Then you've got things like pet poor and Grupo. Obviously Pet poor means small port. Glory Harbor used to be called Grupo. Really?

Perry (14:36):

Monga means gl like glory, pride,

Tracy (14:38):

Mount Pride. Pride,

Perry (14:39):

Pride, pride.

Tracy (14:40):

I need that one. Yeah. But actually in French it is Monga in Jerry. It's ti the old castle. 'cause It was was the one that was there before Elizabeth Castle. So that's what like residents, locals would've called it. Yes. Or was that kind of, was it that its title in like the before the French, the Monarch and Yeah. Well guess it's kind like some people will have called it that, but that's really lovely that there's a like a local way of saying something about somewhere that might have a different name. Yeah, well I suppose it's got names. It's like basically like old school slang.

Perry (15:13):

It'd be like, I'm gonna the castle today. Oh, which one? The old one? Or it's like,

Tracy (15:16):

Basically you say gory castle. Yeah. Yeah. Interesting. and I like Laier 'cause that's place of the crows.

Perry (15:23):

Yeah. That one's, I always thought that one was really cool. Sounds really like romantic.

Tracy (15:27):

That's so cool. And I do love Crows place of the Crows. Yeah. I don't think I've ever seen a crow down Corer. They all fly away. You've

Perry (15:34):

Seen a couple ravens down there as well. <Laugh>.

Tracy (15:38):

That's interesting. La corer means the place of the crows. Well now I'm gonna stop thinking about the lighthouse and now I'm gonna think about the birds. Good. So I do have a, a bizarrely and rather timely, a little anecdote from last night <laugh>. Okay. LA ru Dewi. So there's lots of those across the island. M-A-U-P-R-T-U-I-S. There's a lot of them. Some people pronounce it differently. Right. and my husband was speaking to somebody who lives in one of those roads and sh and he said, do you know what it means? Because it's one of my favorites and I always laugh about it. And, and she said, you know, and he's obviously been really annoying, <laugh> <laugh>. And she says, and she says, yes, I think it means butterfly All very lovely. And he says, no, it means smelly hole. <Laugh>

Perry (16:26):

<Laugh>.

Tracy (16:29):

Well, it can be more different to multiply. Yeah. Which isn't totally, it means bad opening. Mm. But but I sort of say, well that must probably mean smelly hole

Perry (16:38):

Should swap names with Bella Anne really shouldn't it.

Tracy (16:41):

<Laugh> Yes. You. But I think it, it's, again, it's because there were a lot of, there was a lot of rack burning. There were a lot of marshes. It would've been fairly smelly in a lot of these places. Mm. I did just read a 1940 document that says that the word comes from mal pery. I haven't yet identified what language that is, but that was an opening on a dove coat. So it's obviously sort of transferred its way into she.

Perry (17:09):

So Yeah. So it, I guess it's like, it's like the mal suffix for like

Tracy (17:12):

Bad Yeah. For bad. Yeah. Yeah. Like Maleficent, it's like, sorry, prefix. The, the, the witch whatever she is Yeah. From Stephen Beauty. Yeah. I just find it fascinating how things can kind of evolve into a language just from something that's familiar or something that describes something. Yeah. And then it becomes a staple of a language. Mm-Hmm <affirmative>. Yeah. Well, I, I'm, I do a lot of writing and I'm writing a a, a World War I novel. And there's so much of that in that that where the French comes into the English. So the French soldiers often had Van Blanc and the English soldiers heard it as plunk

Perry (17:51):

<Laugh>. Oh

Tracy (17:51):

Yeah. And that's when it became, and we still use Plunk, don't we? So, or maybe you don't. I do <laugh> <laugh>. Can I have some plunk? Maybe you don't use it. No, I don't. But

Perry (18:00):

I know what you mean. <Laugh>. That's,

Tracy (18:01):

That's, yeah. Inter again, really interesting. So

Perry (18:04):

You were saying that like there's a lot of she in French mix. Yeah. In the road names. Yeah. Which one do you, which one kind of wins out in, in our modern place names that we use? Is it mostly kind of, sort of standard French or is it, is it

Tracy (18:21):

No, there's a lot of anglicization of both of them really. I would say English wins out every time. Really. Right. 'cause Often it's spelt wrong or said wrong or, or as I said before, you've got the London influences coming through. I mean, if we take St. Hellier, because that's got a lot of road names <laugh>. Yeah. you've got as I said before, drew Lane, bond Street, we've got Newgate Street. Is that where the prison was? Yeah. Which kind of makes sense 'cause there's a Newgate prison obviously. Mm-Hmm <affirmative>. But then you've got the royalty influence as well coming into the street names. So you've got Gloucester Street, which is actually Ru Opal the road of hospital, right? Mm-Hmm. That was the original name. Yeah. Before it became a, before it became Gloster Street. Right. That was named after a visit by Duke. By the Duke of Gloucester. And then you've got York Street, which is such a shame that it's lost its name 'cause it's name was rude Plunk B. So not plunk as in the previous conversation, <laugh>, but plunk as in a plank. So it's said that Mr. Beo put a plank down for ladies to use rather than getting their petticoat dirty when they went across the marshes in that area. And so it became known as that what a gent. I know. Yeah.

Perry (19:44):

That's lovely. Imagine it being all marshy and just having a plank to walk across. You know, like,

Tracy (19:49):

But then when the Duke of York came, it got named after him instead. That's a bit of a shame. Or old Mr. Billow, grand old Duke of York <laugh> had 10,000 planks. No, he didn't actually that was not him. <Laugh>. He didn't have any, or he might have. Okay. What else have we got? Well, we've got military legacy and street names in St. He as well. So you've got Don Road, which is named for General Don. So General Don sits on the plinth in prey gardens. Mm-Hmm. You know that hu huge one. Yep. He's at the top. He looks like really military. Mm-Hmm. And at one time they did have canons there, sort of again, you would think, oh, canons, he must be some military guy B was a road builder. Oh. Oh wow. Yeah. Which is actually very important to, to Jersey because without those roads, people couldn't get their goods to goods to market.

Tracy (20:39):

Wow. It is one of the reasons as well that you didn't, you have a west accent and an east accent is because of that transportation, because it wasn't there. Yeah. So the language developed in each, you know, in each place. 'cause People didn't really mix, but once General Don came over and did the the roads, then people mixed more. Yeah, of course. Because what's, what I find fascinating about Jerry is that if you lived in Trinity, you'd say different. You'd be, it would be slightly different Yes. To if you were from St. Juan. Yeah, definitely. Yeah. Which is wild. 'cause It's the same thing in sar in I always say it wrong, it, I say Sier, but it's not, it's Saatchi. There we go. It's like from like the main little, the little island to the big island, it's different, isn't it? It's so it's different. Yeah. I'm that I'm not surprised. That's wild to me. 'cause SAR is tiny.

Perry (21:30):

I guess if you think in Jersey, imagine not having a car and being like Right. If you wanna walk to, to gory from from, but

Tracy (21:38):

Also, but also you could do that. You could do that fairly easily road wise. Or they couldn't talking and we were talking marshes and Florence and you know. Yeah, of course. How are you gonna do it? Way more wild For sure. Like, and a woman on their own, obviously. Yeah. That's a no-no.

Perry (21:52):

God, I'd love to have seen it though. I mean even obviously it's, it's a lot different. But going, just going around so nowadays and just thinking this is si more similar to what Jersey would've looked like. Absolutely. Just so, so kind of nice not having tarmac everywhere. <Laugh>.

Tracy (22:06):

So General Don leveled the sand dunes on parade gardens. That's why it's called parade gardens. 'cause That's where he had his parade ground. Right. So he just had them, I dunno, how did they do that? I dunno. Blew them up probably. Yeah, probably.

Perry (22:21):

They love dynamite by then, didn't they? <Laugh>

Tracy (22:23):

<Laugh>, who doesn't pair <laugh>, they just

Perry (22:24):

Dynamite everything.

Tracy (22:26):

Yeah. and then you've got Canon Street where, where they stored the canons, not surprisingly. So in recent years there's been a, a trend towards naming the streets with the je names with the French names a little bit more, which reflects kind of an awareness that we have a cultural and historical identity. Mm-Hmm. I do have a few favorites. I I've told you La Rumo Perie just because of Last Night <laugh>, which did make me laugh because she's, you know, gone from beautiful little butterfly.

Perry (23:05):

Yeah. It's an smelly

Tracy (23:07):

<Laugh>, which is slightly, probably slightly further than it actually is 'cause it's bad opening. But you know you've got Ru Colli Ash and is probably my favorite. J ger a word. I just go around saying Coli <laugh> because I'm weird. Coli Ong. Yeah. It just means snail. Isn't it

Perry (23:28):

Lovely? Oh, coli haw.

Tracy (23:29):

That's so cute. That's cute. Sounds like cauliflower mash coli. Ong. So it's actually spelled C-O-L-I-N-M-A-C-H-O-N. So when you, when I first saw it before I knew anything about Jerry, and that was quite a long time while I lived on Jersey before I even knew there was an indigenous language. And bearing in mind I'm quite interested in languages. That's pretty poor really. But anyway, I thought it was the road named after Colin Macon, you know? Well, Colin Ma Uhhuh <affirmative>. Yeah. But no, it's a, it's Colin Macel and it's not because there's lots of snails there. It's because of the shape of the root. Right. Okay.

Perry (24:08):

There's a, there's Giants in Channel Island's folklore called Colin as well. Isn't there? Is there, yeah. And I, I always wondered if maybe Colin. Yeah, like C-O-L-I-N

Tracy (24:20):

What a scary giant name. Yeah.

Perry (24:23):

<Laugh>. I can't remember the exact story, but I remember it was something, I think it was one of the, the Dolman building. Oh, okay. Giants or something. But

Tracy (24:30):

And then you've got Laro Dehe car, which is the road where the cats of Behe probably a family name gathered. And that, that is interesting because black cats were said to gather on Friday ninth and then trans transform into witches. So that's sort of supposed to be quite a witchy Cool witchy whatever witches do area. Yeah. Yeah. What, what parish is that in? That's in Trinity. Oh, interesting. I mean, according to historian, Mr. Ang they formed a famous witch dynasty. The Be Shes,

Perry (25:13):

That's cool.

Tracy (25:14):

But I don't know where he gets that information from. So, which Ty I'm just repeating it. A witch Dynasty sounds like a do metal band. CCI sounds like a Doo metal band.

Perry (25:23):

Which dynasty

Tracy (25:24):

You've got La com LA la Colo. Mm-Hmm <affirmative>. Obviously Colo to, yeah. Is that, to tie in with the Colomb, which is like a Absolutely. Is Pigeon House. Woohoo. Check me out. Check me out. Knowing some history on the cherry side. Yeah, it absolutely is. But it was only the EU who was allowed to keep pigeons. He kept them for food and he was the only one who was allowed. And I should imagine for neighboring farmers, that was a Rip Paine in the Chew <laugh>. Yeah. <Laugh>. So, but was there one, I'm guessing there was a Columbia there then in Colo. Yeah. Where would that have, do we know roughly where that would've been? No, I, I mean I'm sure you, I haven't seen any remnants. You might be able to find out on the His strike environment records, but I, I don't know. Good plug. But he was the only one allowed to keep them. He made pigeon pies and what, what, I don't suppose he did. Some poor woman did, obviously. 'cause She's in the kitchen. <Laugh> <laugh>. So yeah. But obviously pigeons eat crops. That's why I say it must have been a pain in the Chew for the Farmer's

Perry (26:32):

Nearby <laugh>.

Tracy (26:35):

So. Good. And then the other one that I see around a lot is people call their houses Lash Chas. C-H-A-S-S-E. Yep. Which often I think people think has something to do with hunting. I think that it may be that nobody thinks that at all, but <laugh>. But it's actually a, a Norman French word for small byway. Just like a, a little road, a little byway. Oh, nice. So you're calling your house small Byway. <Laugh>. Interesting. 'cause My, so the road that my parent, well I that I grew up on, my mom and dad's road is called Chas la Cha Brune. Oh, there you go. I don't know what Brune means. Probably a surname. Right. Okay. And then I've seen other houses that go for Ash, which again, before I knew Jerry, I would've thought was French for Hide Hideaway or something like that. But it just means driveway in Jerry. Oh. Oh. So I don't know if they haven't gone for the, you know, they might have gone for the French, or if they've gone for the, the sherry, it just means driveway. So your house is called Driveway, which is a bit odd.

Tracy (27:42):

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Tracy (28:03):

What do you find so fascinating about Ger Tracy? What is it about the language to you that just really like ignites this interest? So for me, it is about the place names and about geography of the place. So if you want to know about my ger journey, <laugh>. Yes, we do. So I moved originally to the Ale of Man. And where they speak Manx, they do speak Manx, but Manx was a dead language at that point. They weren't speaking it. However, they had something called Manx Airlines. And they spoke it on Manx Airlines. Every more, every time you got onto Max Airlines, they would say something like, and I'm sure this is completely wrong, but this is what others are hearing. My my name's Sarah. Right. So <laugh>. Yeah. So you're like, what on Earth was that? So immediately you are aware that there is an inad indigenous language and whether you are interested or not, or not, it becomes part of what is normalized for you when you're on Manx Airlines.

Tracy (28:59):

Mm. I found that quite interesting. When I moved to Jersey, it didn't even cross my mind that then that might be an indigenous language. I, I saw the place names that the, the street names the same as everyone else, but I knew we were quite close to France. So I just presumed it was some sort of French, you know mm-hmm <affirmative>. Which lots of people do. Yeah. Yeah. But I got an interest in linguistics itself. So I was teaching, I had a lot of people who had great deal of trouble with English. Sometimes it was just quite simple things like why can't I spell? You know, why, why is English so stupid and it doesn't spell things properly? And all this sort of stuff. And I would explain all, it's a language of contact, you know, it comes from, from the, all the different places in the Empire shampoo for instance, it's is a Hindi word, you know, it's all, all that sort of stuff.

Tracy (29:51):

Yeah. Is it sh who's a Hindi word. Yeah. So, so, so obviously I became more and more kind of interested. That's so interesting. But I also had the kids who just couldn't for some reason write well, you know, and I'd have terrible trouble analyzing exactly what it was. And so I decided to do a master's in Linguistics, which I, I ended up with post-grad in linguistics. But as I was doing that, I became aware of Jerry. So Jerry ended up being in my masters and I, it was about why is this language not here properly anymore and what are people's attitudes to it? And then when rainy night, I ended up in the Adelphi Pub with a friend. And then we heard Garant on the table speaking this language, realized it must be Jerry. And we started joining in. So that was kind of how, how we went about it.

Tracy (30:48):

My research was about Jerry online. So there's, at that time, there's quite a few people talking about Jerry and things. And an awful lot of people saying, why would I bother? I mean, I want my kid to learn Mandarin. That's gonna be a lot more useful. And I then had this kind of, oh, I think something like has happened to Jerry. It maybe happened to me a little bit in that when I moved from London to the southwest of the country, I wrote in a certain way and I spoke in a certain way. And it was English, but it was my English. Mm. And it was peppered with Jewish language. It was peppered with cockney slang, you know, it, it was, it's like a fusion. Yeah. It was an absolute fusion. And, and a lot of it was not standard English. I didn't know that until I got, went to the Southwest and suddenly got it pointed out to me.

Tracy (31:44):

And then I got in fights 'cause I sounded like I was from Grange I and all this sort of stuff. <Laugh>. Yeah. And I realized that actually my heritage had been trodden on. I was told to write differently. I was told to stop using things like kibosh, stop using, give us a butchers. You know, all these sort of stuff. It wasn't appropriate anymore. I completely lost my accent. I don't think I did that on purpose, but who knows. So when I had a child here, I decided it was really important for her and for her sister, who was only a little bit older, that they know something about the indigenous language of Jersey. 'cause That's where they're gonna at least live some of their life, if not all of their life. And so I took the younger one, took classes after school and that's how it started for me.

Tracy (32:38):

And what with that and then being in the Adelphi, the whole of Jersey just suddenly seemed open to me. Mm. I seemed to understand so much more about where I lived rather than just walking around St. Hellier. I was looking for the names and thinking, oh, I wonder what that meant. I wonder what was there. And yeah, it just suddenly was so much more interesting. Mm-Hmm. You felt connected to the islands? Yeah, I felt connected. And then when I start mentioning it to people, apart from like, some people think I'm weird, they start, oh, that's quite interesting. You know? And then, you know, because we are in an adult environment in the Adelphi, you start to learn the, the swear words that everybody wants to know. You know? And they speak of a certain way of living as well. There's a lot about drinking cider, there's a lot about pigs, there's a lot about farming being at the sea, in the sea.

Tracy (33:26):

And I just found that fascinating. 'cause I thought if I hadn't learned this language or learned some about this language, I wouldn't know any of this about where I now live. And I just think it's so important. It just opened everything up. Well, it does. Yeah. You're so right. And I think that's a lot of the reason why when people go on holiday, they go on that city tour because they wanna understand what they're looking at and understand what the history, like what was the, what's the context of where I am and where is its place in kind of like historic kind of context. So learning a language, it, it opens a soul to people. So it's like it's, I completely understand what you're saying completely. Because now even having this conversation, I'll now go to places and look out for these words and I'll know what they mean now.

Tracy (34:10):

So I'll, it will give me context into, ah, this place was a brook, or this place was a, a driveway <laugh>. Yeah. And then doing, I mean, as undid, but then doing my family history, I find that there's a lot of Hugos in my family history and part of the family and I, I dunno how direct, it's probably like second cousin, 27 times removed or something. Yeah. But part of the family was the orange family orange. And obviously they were here, you know, orange. Orange were here. Yeah. So I bought a house where one of them right near where one of them is buried. And I went, did you, did you know that I had absolutely no idea. And I went to look for the grave. 'cause I had found out that this connection and it was a hot day and I took ages to find this grave.

Tracy (34:58):

My daughter came to find me, my young daughter comes to find me and she says, oh my god, mom. And I'm like, yeah, yeah, I know. I'm wandering around a graveyard like some mad woman <laugh>. And she said, no. Have you noticed what day he died? And it was the day that I'd gone to look for the grave. No way. Oh, that is, do I know, how weird is that? <Laugh>. And I never knew I had any connection to Jersey. So as I say, probably not great-grandfather, probably second cousin, 20,000 times removed. But it made me feel even more connected, to be honest. Yeah. That's so special.

Tracy (35:33):

I'd really like anyone who's listening who has a surname of Vast to know about the Norman poet waste. So the Norman Poet waste is kind of like the Shakespeare of Sheri a so he's considered the first, the earliest piece of, of the Sheri a literature. So quite, quite important. It's about the, there's two, about the creation of Norm of Normandy, the creation of, of Britain. But that surname waste has gradually cha changed over time to VAs V-A-S-S-E. And there are quite a few vases on the island. Yeah. I think I know quite a few. Well, maybe not a few. I know probably maybe two. But that's, that's really again, yeah. Again, amazing. So if they do their family yesterday, they may well find, they're like, have a lead to like a make waste Shakespeare <laugh>, man. Yeah.

Perry (36:23):

Waste is great. Waste is really interesting. You ever wanna

Tracy (36:26):

No, I've never, never

Perry (36:26):

Heard of that. We're talking about it when we do our, my podcast.

Tracy (36:30):

That's cool. That's really cool. Do we have a ge like a Jerry dictionary? Yes. So the original Jerry Dictionary is Ge is Jerry French. And it was compiled by Franklin h. He he did an amazing job. I mean, he did it all on his own. It was like, it was his life's work and, and he wrote down. So, so really he standardized really. She it's certainly, I think when the Assembly are considering words, it's certainly the, the, the, the dictionary they will look at to see what did, what did he do kind of thing. So that's an amazing piece of work. But it's also kind of huge. You can put it in your pocket. For instance, you can put it in your bag, let alone in your pocket. You know, it's a big book. Yeah. But it's a big book and you have to have an understanding a little bit of French as well, because it gives french examples.

Tracy (37:28):

So it doesn't give a direct word. It just gives you the word and then gives you where it would sit in French and you know, you can work it out. Then the teachers from who were at Lice Sherry eight previously, so some time ago that would be Colin Harrison, Tony Scott, Warren, Garrin Jennings. They created a dictionary presumably using that, I don't know, from, from words that they knew as well. And so that is available to purchase from sa Yes. It's challenging for teachers to use. It's one of the things I want to look at. 'cause It's challenging for teachers to use because it incorporates every word. So you can imagine, you know, give that to a school child. The first thing they're gonna look up in the same way that I learn swear words in Delphi. Oh. You know, so so, but there is, yes.

Tracy (38:21):

And you can buy it, but we are looking at making something electronic. Yeah, that'd be really useful. But you've also written a book though, Tracy <laugh>. I have written a book. Yeah. You've written a book. I have, yeah. That has lots of jerry a phrases. Yeah. And if I'm not mistaken, you've written it in a way that's kind of like you can phonetically try and work out Yeah. How to say them. Because I think the challenge with Jerry for me is I'd love to learn it, but I would need to have someone to kind of like yourself explaining how things are, how they're supposed to sound. Yeah. So that I learn it. Right. 'cause you, you know, that the whole thing about learning a language is getting into that repetition of, you know, really remembering how something sounds and it's not something that's so easy to read.

Tracy (39:04):

Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's a challenging language to learn no doubt about that. Because when you see it written, it's got more apostrophes. I love apostrophes, but even so, it's got more apostrophes than any language I've ever seen in my life. Yeah. It's intense. And a lot of religion. So a lot of sliding one word into the other. There's some stuff on SoundCloud which you can, which you can listen to with my book. I did do it as phonetically as I could. You can use international phonetic alphabet, which is the standard that linguists would use. People like speech therapists would use. And it means it gives you the, the sounds across all languages. But most people wouldn't recognize it. 'cause It uses certain symbols. You just wouldn't necessarily recognize it. And you've probably seen it in dictionaries and possibly on Google and stuff.

Tracy (39:56):

But you kind of gloss over it. 'cause You don't, on earth it means, so I tried to do it sort of phonetically as an English person. Might, might do it. But even that has its challenges because how do you say book? Book? How do you say book? Book? Right. But how does somebody who's Scottish or Northern say book B? Yeah. Yeah. So straight away I can put o but to you that's and to them it's Ooh. Yeah. So it, it's challenging to try and do it. It's so true genetically, because everyone does think everyone, it depends on the accent. It depends on your accent. It's like when people say, like, I say bath, but pe some people say bath, I say bath. But yeah, some people say bath. So if I put a a, am I saying ah, or am I saying, ah, yeah, it's, so I did try and explain that at the front of the book how I had done, gone about it.

Tracy (40:46):

And Jerry has words, has sounds like, well where's that in English? How can I tell you how to say that in English? No, you can only do it in French. Yeah. 'cause that's what Yeah, you, yeah. But if you don't speak French, that's a bit, it's really, so I end up putting NZH as in Dr. Vargo <laugh>. Oh yeah. So, so I did make an attempt at it, but it's, unless you're gonna use the international phonetic alphabet, it's never gonna be totally, totally crap. But I mean, that, that book does come with a little warning halfway through where it says, you know, insults to fro over your shoulder, insults to run away, insults not to be red around the table <laugh>.

Tracy (41:23):

And it is based on like pub talk. So it's Right. But it, but it was a way to connect with people because a lot of the time, what I was finding, whilst I completely understand why people want their kids to learn Mandarin or whatever, Jerry's been left in the past with the farming community, with the, you know, all that sort, all those, all those words, all the country bumpkin stuff, and not proper French all still exists and it's been left in the past, but I don't think it has, it has to be, no, it has a place in the future. I, I've learned so much about the island I've found fascinating. And when I've talked to people and given them, you know, why don't you say this? And they won't know you're swearing at them, you know, they've all been interested, you know, it does have a place.

Tracy (42:09):

It's because it makes, it forms part of our intangible cultural heritage, which is something that obviously, you know, you can't necessarily see it, but it, it tells you so much about a people and a place and a history. So that's why it's so important to, to preserve it and to keep bringing awareness to how much it opens the doors to understanding Jersey. Well, Jerry, like, it's, it's really, really important. And what I've heard from youngsters, which I find fascinating, is they will often go to university, mostly in England, and they'll be asked, where are you from? And you know what it's like <laugh>, you gotta try and explain it and Yeah. You know, but they want to be slightly different. So here they don't necessarily want to be slightly different, but when they go to England, they want to be slightly different. And that difference can be through their language.

Tracy (43:05):

So actually I've had a number of youngsters who are that sort of age, that sort of a level age becoming interested, and they don't necessarily want to sit there and do all the grammar. There are a Kalu, do you know, but they're not all that interested that they wanna spend hours learning the grammar and the structures and all the stuff that I'm going through <laugh>, because I'm, I'm not, you know, I'm not fluent. But they do want something to take to university that is about them, is about their identity. So they get it, they get that this is, this is part of my identity. Mm-Hmm <affirmative>. My own daughter sometimes will say she fre and she doesn't really speak much Sherry, but who's that? It means I've got amps. Oh. Means I've got, she's feeling restless. Yeah. She's got pins and needles.

Perry (43:53):

Oh, okay.

Tracy (43:54):

So yeah. So she's, she just Asia fre. But for these sort of youngsters, a a level age to take that to another place, just make, it's that slight difference and that little bit of home that they've got within them.

Perry (44:08):

Yeah. I always, I always say, I've probably said on here before, but nothing makes you feel like where you are from more than being away from it. Yeah, absolutely. Like, as soon as you go somewhere else, you really kind of think, oh God. Like I, you know, I identify with where I was from a bit more, you know?

Tracy (44:22):

Yeah, it's true. It's like any, anytime I go on holiday and people ask me where I'm from and I explain where we're from and depending on where I am, like, you know, the New Jersey, but we're actually the original jersey and like we have our own Patois language and like there's a lot and we are a cluster of islands that are very different, but we're so close together. Mm. And I, and, and that's what's fascinating to me is that even if you think about Guernsey, and it's linked to Zier, and it's like, I know I have so many friends in Guernsey that are so linked to their language. Oh, okay. They actually know quite a lot of their native tongue, which is really interesting because I remember learning Jerry a at school in primary school. I think I was in year five or year six, but that seemed to die death.

Tracy (45:06):

I don't know. I've got, you know, family members who are at primary school now, and they don't know anything about Jerry a really mm-hmm. But it's, it's unfortunate that, that that isn't part of our curriculum. It should be. Yeah. Yeah. It is optional. It, it, we haven't, I should be mandatory. Yeah, yeah. We haven't. But, but you are setting that as someone who's interested in Heritage, who now perhaps sees a value in the language, the message we have to get out is that there is a value in the language. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. I, as I said before, I understand people who say, Mandarin's gonna be so much more useful to my daughter, go going forward. I completely get that. But what is language for Yes, for communication, you're probably right. But for that bit of identity, that bit of, where am I from Sherry is that is probably more likely to be that thing.

Tracy (45:55):

Yeah, no, I totally agree. I I think language holding onto a language, it's like the Welsh model, how, you know, you, the minute you cross the border from England and to Wales, you know, you're in Wales because those road signs are like, you, you feel like you're in a fairytale. Mm. It's like the most beautiful kind of written language. And it's there's a real presence in, in kind of Wales, you can really feel that kind of like, that root in, its like indigenous language. Mm. And I think Jersey could do that. It could, it could, it could be a unique selling point Absolutely. For the island, without a doubt. We just need to get more people speaking it. So if somebody does wanna come and learn, like Jerry a and they're not in school mm-hmm <affirmative>. What would you, where can we go? Yeah. Okay.

Tracy (46:41):

So again, like I've said to you, it isn't easy. We have chat groups as part of Jersey Heritage, but a lot of those are taking place at a time when people are at work or, or at school. There is one on a Monday at Santander Cafe at lunchtime, but there is a Jersey teaching service and we can put you in contact with the Jersey teaching service. So I am not good enough in my understanding of grammar and everything to teach people. I probably could teach beginners, but apart from that, I'm, I, I couldn't really, my thing is to get it out there, to get people aware of how lovely the language is and what it tells you to tell folklore in it, you know, to use it as that heritage thing. So they will go to the Jersey teaching service, which we could put them in contact with. We also have a teacher online. So you can choose to, to speak with her at any time and learn her the language at any time is free. She, again, we'll, we can put a people in touch if they're interested. If she gets, I think she usually sort, sort of serves around four people, then she will set something up specifically for those four. But she's really keen on, on having people learn the language. That's amazing. I didn't even know that service was available. So that's really good to know.

Perry (48:00):

The only thing I would, I would mention is if people are interested in Place Names and, and Jerry, and there's the there's a book, two big books by Massive Books. Yeah. Yeah. Massive Books by Stevens and Stevens. I think it's 1980. Yes. Maybe. Yeah. And you might not be able to pick up copies, but they're in the Jersey archive. You can come and have a look at them.

Tracy (48:20):

I think they've got in the library as well, in

Perry (48:21):

The library as well. And that has, it's an amazing piece of work. It's basically got one of the old ordinance survey maps and just imposed the names of all of the places in with explanations and the sort of the Sour and e etymology as well for a lot of those. So yeah,

Tracy (48:37):

It's a really good book. Well, really good two books.

Perry (48:39):

Yeah. If you're interested in finding out your own kind of house name or road name or field names or anything like that, then it's a pretty good place to look,

Tracy (48:48):

I think. Yeah. Yeah. And I've, I've been looking in the Sote archive and found some documents from 1940s mm-hmm. That, so obviously they predate that book. And generally they, they agree. There are a few that I'm, I'm kind of looking at, but it's quite, I find it fascinating. I mean, it's

Perry (49:05):

Such a, it's such a big piece of work that they did, and it's just two of them. And sometimes I think, how did you even get all this information? You know, like, it must have just been going around asking farmers, what do you call your field? Yeah. Stuff like that. I mean,

Tracy (49:16):

And old, old records.

Perry (49:18):

Old records and

Tracy (49:19):

Archives and all sorts. Yeah. Wow. Oh, <laugh>

Perry (49:26):

<Laugh>.

Tracy (49:28):

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