The realities of circular fashion with Rifò, Empire Apparel

Fashion is often described as one of the world's most polluting industries. The scale can be difficult to grasp as it feels so personal, but every year, billions of garments are produced, sold, worn briefly and discarded, with consequences that reach far beyond our wardrobes.

The industry is worth around $2.4 trillion and is estimated to account for up to 8% of global carbon emissions. It consumes around 15 trillion litres of water each year and is responsible for roughly 11% of plastic waste. Yet many of these impacts are not accidental by-products of the system. They are linked to the way the industry is organised, from production planning and purchasing practices to inventory management and sales.

Changing that system is not straightforward. But across the industry, some businesses are trying to reduce waste by keeping materials, products and resources in use for longer

This week’s episode, the third one in the fashion arc, is a little different than usual:  We've brought together two conversations that explore what "reduce, reuse and recycle" actually looks like in practice. 

Firstly, Giulia spoke to Niccolò Cipriani,  founder and CEO of the Italian circular fashion company Rifò, about what it means to set up a sustainable fashion company. They discuss the realities of building a business around recycled materials, the challenges of fibre recycling, and why suppliers initially viewed discarded textiles as low-value inputs rather than useful resources. 

Giulia then sat down with Kenchen Arjandas Bharwani, fashion consultant at Empire Apparel, who walked us through the ins and outs of the fashion supply chain – including how perfectly good garments can be discarded for very minor reasons, how deadstock accumulates, and how the off-price market helps find a home for products that might otherwise go to waste. 

Together, these interviews provide a window into a part of the sustainability conversation that often receives less attention.  Instead of talking about 'sustainable fashion', much of the discussion focuses on what happens before a garment reaches a shop, and what happens to it when it doesn't sell. 

That raises a larger question. If waste is being created at multiple points throughout the system, can fashion become more sustainable simply through better consumer choices, or does it require changes to the way the industry itself operates? Because while individual choices aren’t irrelevant, some of the most important decisions in fashion are being made long before we ever see a price tag.

If you enjoyed this episode, subscribe to our newsletter and follow us on LinkedIn, TikTok and Instagram – and why not spread the word with your friends and colleagues?

Transcript

Giulia Bottaro (00:00)

Hello and welcome to a new episode of Shaken Not Burned. I'm your co-host, Giulia Bottaro. Fashion is known to be one of the most polluting industries worldwide. The sheer amount of garments produced and wasted every day has far reaching consequences on communities and ecosystems. This $2.4 trillion industry employs 300 million people across the value chain.

Many of whom are women located in the global south and working in dangerous conditions for little pay. We have covered extensively the social issues in our previous episode with Aine Clarke at the Business and Human Rights Center.

Talking about the environmental impacts, citing a few statistics from the UN, Fashion is estimated to generate up to eight percent of global annual carbon emissions and consumes fifteen trillion liters of water annually. It is the third largest contributor of plastic waste with an eleven percent share. I could go on, so how do we sort this mess?

One solution is circularity. Reduce, reuse, recycle our resources to avoid as much waste as possible. Today's episode is the third one in our fashion arc and is a little different than usual. We have collated two interviews to cover the topic from different perspectives. Firstly, we spoke to Niccolò Cipriani, CEO of Rifo, a circular fashion brand based in Italy.

About what it means to set up a sustainable fashion company and how to spot low impact materials. We then sat down with Kenchen Arjandas Barwani, fashion consultant at Empire Apparel, who walked us through the ins and outs of the fashion supply chain, including how perfectly good garments are discarded for very small details, and how the off-price sector addresses this problem by buying dead stock and placing it in stores at lower prices.

So here they are.

Giulia Bottaro (02:10)

Hello, Niccolò, thank you so much for being with us today.

Niccolò Cipriani (02:13)

Hi Giulia, thank you very much for the invitation.

Giulia Bottaro (02:15)

why don't you tell me a bit about your experience and how Rifò came to be?

Niccolò Cipriani (02:19)

Rifò was born actually eight years ago with a crowdfunding campaign. Before doing Rifò, I was working in a development cooperation program in Vietnam, where I've lived two years. Where I've also seen the problem of overproduction, because there was a lot of waste coming from mainly fast fashion production in those areas, like Cambodia, Vietnam, Myanmar, and Laos.

And so I thought like, how is it possible we produce so much waste and still we don't talk a lot about recycling. was 2017, so it seems close by, but was a long time ago actually, because then the industry has developed a bit, let's say And so like, started thinking about solutions, but what was funny, and still it's funny, is that

I come from Prato, that is one of the main, actually, textile clusters in the world. And actually in Prato they have been recycling textile fibers for more than 100 years, but they weren't communicating that. So what I did is, okay, I come back home, I research, I try to understand how it works, and I want to develop a collection made with recycled materials.

Giulia Bottaro (03:38)

Mm-hmm.

Niccolò Cipriani (03:39)

natural materials like wool, cashmere and cotton and made it locally.

Giulia Bottaro (03:44)

Okay. So why

were they not communicating the fact that there was already a thriving recycling ecosystem in Prato?

Niccolò Cipriani (03:52)

because there was a different perception of recycled fibers from the market because at that time, virgin fibers were the best fiber in the market. Today, people are looking for recycled fibers. At that time, there wasn't value added on that material. So when we started, still, there were people like a bit, let's say, uncertain about our approach because it was innovative.

But then now today it's quite the norm to see sustainable, organic, recycled in all the products we buy and we use every day even on plastic bottles.

Giulia Bottaro (04:32)

Yeah, absolutely. Before we get into the more in-depth about these issues, I would like to go a bit macro and talk about the problem. What's this problem about overproduction? I mentioned some statistics there, but what are the dynamics behind all of this?

Niccolò Cipriani (04:50)

Well, I think the main problem is that it's a market based on quantity instead of quality. It's a market based on production and consumption. It's a market based on a high purchase rate, but not because I like what I wear, but because what I wear doesn't last. the main problem is that we're using natural resources like they're infinitive, like water.

energy, CO2, but they aren't. And we are using them for something that at the end we don't wear because we buy it, maybe we use it two, three times and then we throw it away. ⁓ we are really stressing the planet for something that we don't need.

Giulia Bottaro (05:37)

I'm thinking about some of the mechanisms that, you know, there is overproduction on one side, but then there is overconsumption. As you said, we buy something, we wear it two or three times and then

lies forgotten into the wardrobe or just go straight to the bin. So I'm thinking like how did we get to this point? Is it marketing? Is it because the clothes themselves are low quality so we're not pushed to actually care for them?

Niccolò Cipriani (06:03)

It's both marketing and quality, would say. ⁓ Marketing, surely today we have impulses every moment with the social media. At the same time, we focus a lot on either on the price or either on the brand, but we don't really look at quality. We're used to like check composition label. we buy many things that...

We think they are cool or they are like taken at good price but then we don't look at the hidden cost of what they buy.

Giulia Bottaro (06:36)

I think it's the responsibility lies both for the customer, but also the producer who, know, how many companies have tens of new collections every day. So there is this constant churn of products available on the market.

Niccolò Cipriani (06:49)

Yeah, there is like this constant availability of products, of collections. Before there were only two collections. Fast fashion do maybe more than 20, 30 collections per year. I think at the end we are quite manipulated by the market to buy more and more. And sometimes we should ask ourselves like, do I really need it? Is it something that is really useful or I don't have room?

anymore on my wardrobe, you know.

Giulia Bottaro (07:17)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah. It also feels like with TikTok and all the video content that we consume that some of the trends on the internet can be quite short lived. I am not up to date with these at all, but I can think of like cottagecore was a thing maybe two years ago, but now people have moved on. And maybe there is a new TV series, maybe a period drama and people start to dress.

like that period drama but then it ends and then all those corsets are again out of fashion so it feels like there are these other trends that are pushing for constant change.

Niccolò Cipriani (07:55)

I think

that's a problem but that's a light one because it's still fashion so it's normal that there is something that this year go well and next year not as the previous year so I think that's not the main problem unless like one collection is made only of trends ⁓ I think the main problem is that we are pushed to buy everything

Giulia Bottaro (07:59)

Mm-hmm. Okay.

Niccolò Cipriani (08:20)

like it's new but actually we already have it.

Giulia Bottaro (08:23)

Yeah, so if I have a t-shirt, why should I buy a new one kind of thing?

Niccolò Cipriani (08:27)

Yeah, only if like what I have is not good anymore.

Giulia Bottaro (08:32)

You also mentioned material composition. Do you think that people are actually aware of the materials that they buy? And do you have any tips for how somebody could go about learning about that?

Niccolò Cipriani (08:44)

the first thing you have to assess when you buy a garment is the composition label because you have two information. One about the fiber that is used and the other one is where it's produced. So you understand if what you are paying is fair or not. Most of people, don't do that. They just buy the product because of the price or of the brand. Well, they should do that because they...

maybe start realizing that sometimes they pay too much for what they are getting. for instance, a good composition label should have at least 95 % of raw material inside it. And this material should be natural and not synthetic. Origin, of course, like if it comes from Far East or like from ⁓ North Africa, of course, like the label that is paid was really cheap.

so it's better like in European origin. mean, sometimes you think like you get something like it is for free, but never is for free in the market.

Giulia Bottaro (09:51)

It also feels that there is so much opacity in the fashion world and the supply chains that sometimes you're paying quite a lot for something, maybe because there is a brand attached to it, as you mentioned, but the quality doesn't correspond to the price. So maybe there is a piece of clothing that it's really expensive, like hundreds of euros, and then it's all made of polyester.

Niccolò Cipriani (10:15)

It happens quite often actually. mean, if we start checking the label, think we shouldn't, we wouldn't buy at least 50 % of what we generally buy because of the brand.

Giulia Bottaro (10:27)

Okay, so it's that simple, I suppose. Just check the label and that tells you quite a lot on...

Niccolò Cipriani (10:34)

Yeah, now probably you will have also digital product passport that can give you much more information about what you are buying. But I think that the composition label is still like a good way to start.

Giulia Bottaro (10:47)

Is this digital product passport something mandated by legislation or is it something that companies choose to do?

Niccolò Cipriani (10:55)

It will be mandatory. Yes, it's not mandatory at the moment. There are companies that are already using it, but it will be mandatory soon in the EU.

Giulia Bottaro (11:04)

Okay.

In the EU. Okay. ⁓ So companies will really have to review their entire supply chains then to ensure this transparency.

Niccolò Cipriani (11:13)

And

it's the impact, yes.

Giulia Bottaro (11:16)

So how can fashion reduce the impact across the supply chain?

Niccolò Cipriani (11:20)

⁓ producing less, consuming less, the fashion market has become too big. We don't need that. So it should find a new balance, a new, let's say, like equilibrium point. And also, I think it's important that we start consuming less and using more what we already have in the wardrobe.

Giulia Bottaro (11:42)

I'm thinking would make the supply chains a bit shorter help.

Niccolò Cipriani (11:48)

Sure, because like if you make the supply chain shorter it implies that you can also produce less because if I produce like far away I need a lot of quantity to absorb also the shipping cost.

Giulia Bottaro (12:00)

And I suppose it would also be about the materials, right? Use as much natural material as possible. Yeah.

Niccolò Cipriani (12:04)

Yes.

Well, natural materials because like circular economy is not infinite like the artificial one but the natural one it is so you need to buy a biodegradable product because at the end you can recycle a whole sweater like three, five times but then it has to go back to nature.

Giulia Bottaro (12:22)

So there is a limit to how much you can recycle these materials.

Niccolò Cipriani (12:26)

Yeah, because it's a mechanical recycling and it depends on the length of the fiber.

Giulia Bottaro (12:31)

Okay, so maybe we can talk about ⁓ Rifò then since you are the expert in recycling materials. can you tell me about how you go about making your brand as sustainable as possible?

Niccolò Cipriani (12:47)

Well, when we started, we thought it was the only way because the market is saturated. There wasn't an alternative. we have always thought in a radical way to offer something that you cannot find today in the market, something that can substitute what we are currently buying, but can also look at the long-term impact and not only at the short-term revenue. ⁓

Giulia Bottaro (13:09)

So in practice, how does it look like?

Niccolò Cipriani (13:12)

Well, we collect all clothes and textile waste directly and directly. They are then transformed into a fiber again and then into a yarn. We buy the yarn, we produce knitwear, accessories, t-shirts and so on. We use five materials mainly that are wool, cashmere, cotton, linen and silk. And we do it locally here in Prato. So we try to reduce also our...

cost transportation emissions as much as possible.

Giulia Bottaro (13:41)

And like how often do you release a design? How does that work?

Niccolò Cipriani (13:45)

Well, we have

two catalogs, one in the summer and one in the winter. We release products weekly that are part of the catalog, but because we do pre-sale. So when we launch a product, we collect the orders and then we launch the production. In exchange, we give a 30 % discount code for the waiting period. once we have received orders, like normally in three weeks, then

We start the production and in 5 weeks we deliver the product.

Giulia Bottaro (14:14)

so do you have many leftover garments from each collection?

Niccolò Cipriani (14:18)

No, at the end of the year we have normally a sellout higher than 95 % so not many and we try also to have carryover at the end of the season so we can sell them also next year easily ⁓ but for the moment our stock is really really low

Giulia Bottaro (14:37)

I also get the impression from looking at the website that the design, like the garments themselves are quite timeless in the way that the shapes of the garment are not meant to follow the fashion now. They feel like they are fairly basic items that can last a long time.

Niccolò Cipriani (14:55)

Yeah, because we think that you need to produce a garment that can last also as a design as a concept. When you do sustainable fashion, do sustainability. That is a long-term concept. While you do fashion, it's a short-term concept. So you need to find the balance between the two.

Giulia Bottaro (15:11)

when you started the company, as you said, all these characteristics that you talk about feel quite radical for fashion. and obviously the price point isn't cheap. So how did you go about creating the company? How did you find investors and customers? And how did you convince the producers in Prato to join you on this mission?

Niccolò Cipriani (15:33)

at the beginning we prepared a crowdfunding campaign. So we started preparing like a collection of hats, gloves and scarves. We found suppliers here that were producing for other brands and they liked the idea. I made like a PowerPoint presentation and I introduced the concept to them and they supported at the beginning. then we launched this communication campaign. It was

quite new at the beginning, Rifò was appreciated because it was innovative. It's something completely new. we attracted customers also outside Italy and we started with 290 pre-orders and around like 12,000 euro. And then we entered into an acceleration program in Florence named Hubble program. we found investors in 2020.

And then we did another round in 2022. And since then, we haven't done other fundraising rounds. So we started like step by step slowly with like a few accessories. And nowadays we have, like a total look collection.

Giulia Bottaro (16:41)

is your customer base growing and what is attracting customers to the brand?

Niccolò Cipriani (16:46)

I think customers are more more interested in what we are doing. I think they appreciate our vision and our values. And the problem sometimes can be price, but in general, we see that our niche composed like that people with cultural availability and sometimes also economic availability are more eager to spend on a product that is meant to last.

and it's also made with recycled fibres.

Giulia Bottaro (17:14)

Do you think that the fashion industry can one day be sustainable?

Niccolò Cipriani (17:18)

in absolute values? No, because fashion, as I say, is a short-term world. You need to change to buy clothes every year. But it can be more sustainable than it is, for sure.

Giulia Bottaro (17:32)

Do you see the future of fashion made of maybe smaller brands like yours or can big companies really get to the point where they are sustainable?

Niccolò Cipriani (17:42)

I think it depends on the customers, it depends on us, but I think, I hope actually that it will be a reverse trend like small is beautiful.

Giulia Bottaro (17:53)

Do you know of any other brands that are doing something similar to Rifò?

Niccolò Cipriani (17:56)

Well, in Italy, not with recycled fibers, but as a concept, there is Progetto Quid And there are also other brands, European brands, that do something similar, but mainly with organic fibers. We recycle ones, but with polyester and nylon, there is Ecoalf in Spain.

Giulia Bottaro (18:14)

we are a B2B podcast, so we talk to professionals. So how can professionals and businesses out there support the transition of the fashion sector?

Niccolò Cipriani (18:23)

even like B2B and companies, they can have an impact in their merchandising or in their like buying solutions. So I think what they should have is that like a guideline for like a respectful and sustainable buying practices.

Giulia Bottaro (18:41)

how do you find being a small brand in an industry with such big brands that, you know, are quite powerful?

Niccolò Cipriani (18:50)

Well, we do our own way. mean, we cultivate our niche and our garden. So we're happy like that. we are happy with the customers we have. We are happy if we can get new customers. I don't think we will ever become mass market, but we like to cultivate our niche.

Giulia Bottaro (19:08)

Do you have anything else that we should have covered that we didn't talk about?

Niccolò Cipriani (19:13)

Maybe about social impact because we also do social impact projects inside our territory. 1 % of our revenues go to this project. We are currently working on Nei Nostri Panni that is a vocational training project for vulnerable migrants. There many migrants coming here in Prato. We train them for jobs that are slowly fading away, like the one of Rackman, spinning operators and so on. So it's important that we

use our revenues also to develop projects for the community and for the territory that can look at the long term.

Giulia Bottaro (19:47)

Are there any concerns about displacing jobs in the Global South by bringing the supply chain to Europe?

Niccolò Cipriani (19:55)

not really because...

I think that it's a relocation. mean, there are competencies that we lost in the last 20 years. At the same time, we can rebuild them. But still, I think there is a breadth for both.

Giulia Bottaro (20:08)

I suppose there are not very good jobs as well in certain factories so the hope is that there will be a different type of job creation alongside the supply chain in Asia.

Niccolò Cipriani (20:19)

I think, ⁓ I hope so. Yeah. I hope so.

Giulia Bottaro (20:23)

I'm here with thank you so much for joining us today.

Kanchan - Empire Apparel LLC (20:26)

Of course,

happy to be here. Okay, so I'm a fashion consultant in the off-price fashion industry. Now, a lot of people are not very familiar with what is off-price fashion, but...

Giulia Bottaro (20:28)

Can you tell me about your job?

I'm one of them,

yes.

Kanchan - Empire Apparel LLC (20:43)

It's basically the world of excess inventory, canceled orders, overproduction and leftovers. to explain it simply, when brand places orders of garments they are very well connected with manufacturers all over the world, right? So when they place orders to them, sometimes,

the manufacturers are not able to honor the delivery time that they committed. Like for instance, say a big brand wants to place an order and say that, I wanna order these coats, okay? And I want it to be in my stores in September, which means it has to be in my warehouse in August, for example. And the factory says, yeah, sure. they are able to do that. And then they don't honor it because of some condition or another doesn't allow them to ship on time.

So the brand cancels on the factory and said, you know what, now I can't take in the goods because I have to wait for another year. I miss a whole period of selling season, whatever, and they cancel. That's one of the reasons that goods get canceled. they're good condition goods, okay? They're pristine condition, And on another note, also sometimes situations where the brands are very particular about what they want, right? So if they say,

Giulia Bottaro (21:38)

Yeah.

Kanchan - Empire Apparel LLC (21:54)

You did not place the hang tag is supposed to be attached under this arm, but you placed it under this arm cancel. then there's.

Giulia Bottaro (22:01)

Wow, okay, so even

what could be seen as a small detail can actually cancel entire orders

Kanchan - Empire Apparel LLC (22:05)

Yes, small detail. Even like something like

for example the Pantone color black should be Pantone number 1, 2, 3 for example and then they used 4, 5, 6 they would cancel it. Like there's difference in the Pantone maybe due to the production, the dyeing process. there's a lot of nuance in these things right? So due to that it gets cancelled as well. they're very beautiful goods. It's just they get cancelled because of these things and there are instances where factories

Giulia Bottaro (22:14)

Mm-hmm.

gone. Okay.

Kanchan - Empire Apparel LLC (22:33)

do overproduce as well because they have to keep a buffer in case of damages during production. Maybe this gets dirty, stained, not cut properly.

if it's not damaged, you're doing a good job, that just sits there. there's a lot of nuance to this, but that's the world that I am from. So basically what we do is we deal with these manufacturers, like they come to us when they have canceled goods or leftovers and they ask us like, we need

quick cash what can you do to help us because this is dead inventory essentially. If we don't do anything with it or they don't find a client for it like us, it goes to the landfill which obviously we don't want. Right? So that's already enough problems in the world for that. what we do is we take on those merchandise as long as they're good condition of course, they're A grade wearable, So as long as that can work, we take that on.

We bring it the United States and we redistribute it to off price retailers. Like you have TJ Maxx, have Burlington, you have Ross stores. Those are big off price stores. And some people don't understand the workings behind it. Like how could you get nice brands for such cheap price? But this is the reason. It's because they cancel goods, but there's nothing wrong with them. It's little things that consumers don't really care about. They just care that we get nice goods, nice brands at affordable prices.

Giulia Bottaro (23:41)

Right.

it sounds like a huge market.

Kanchan - Empire Apparel LLC (23:55)

Yes,

in America, really big market. Yes.

Giulia Bottaro (23:58)

I imagine it's also the same in other countries as well?

Kanchan - Empire Apparel LLC (24:02)

I believe other countries have their own concept of outlets Some of these stores are also known as factory outlets where you will go in and you say that my god I got this brand for such a good price because then you'll know that that is actually off price it's something that's either canceled or leftovers, but somebody has redistributed to that store, which is good Like you know, like why throw it right because it's good

Giulia Bottaro (24:06)

Mm-hmm.

So how does this all fit into the concept of having a circular economy in fashion?

Kanchan - Empire Apparel LLC (24:32)

circular economy in our world we believe that it is the idea of keeping products and materials in use for as long as possible in case instead of like a take make dispose model because that's what fast fashion is essentially like they produce I mean even their turnover and their change in trends are so fast

that brands who are doing fast fashion, their clothing don't really last a long time. It's a couple of washes and you're done, couple of washes. But that's kind of how the brands position themselves too. That's why the trends are always so fast with them. Now in our case, we don't do fast fashion. we really work with the brands, the brands and the manufacturers of the brands who we know are good quality goods that they really intend. I mean, they're brands who are

known for the longevity of their goods, of their clothing basically. But it's just due to situational, they get cancelled. Okay. So and for us, like redistribution, like redistributing to these stores is a very big part of circularity in our world. for example, a major retailer, who cancels an order of say, for example, 100,000 units because it arrives late.

Giulia Bottaro (25:28)

Okay.

Kanchan - Empire Apparel LLC (25:43)

it's going to arrive late or because demand has shifted or as of late because of tariffs they start abandoning their shipments at the port where I come in the picture is I have to redirect this into another channel where it still has value so that cycle is circularity in practice for us that's where circular fashion is like for us in off price

Giulia Bottaro (26:03)

Okay.

Kanchan - Empire Apparel LLC (26:06)

like that.

Giulia Bottaro (26:06)

Okay, interesting.

What would you say are the mechanisms behind overconsumption?

Kanchan - Empire Apparel LLC (26:12)

I feel that marketing plays a massive role over here. because fashion has become less about need and more about say urgency. Especially with the whole trend cycle, social media, the whole limited drop, limited capsule collection and then with the whole

⁓ Like you have a sale for certain period, like a countdown timer, everything creates a feeling of you buy now or you're going to miss out. and then there's also brands like what I mentioned earlier, that they intentionally create trend driven pieces. And you know, certain trends, they don't last. They're good for now. but they feel outdated

there are brands that specifically create these

like trend driven pieces that will get outdated quickly So the challenge is a lot of consumers are now doing a lot of emotional buying of course and it often leads in long-term waste

I could say the same for crop tops crop tops has its moments yes but even for us when we get offered crop tops it's not the biggest interest for us because we care for the mass market and what can people of all body shapes and sizes would prefer a nice top maybe a long sleeve top it's more universal that's kind of what we go after

as opposed to trend driven pieces because we understand as well that for the stores even if they want it, they probably won't sell out of it because it's not for everyone. The sell-throughs are very slow for them.

Giulia Bottaro (27:37)

Yeah, so you try to stick to more like evergreen kind of something that can be worn for a lifetime But then what happens to those crop tops then to the producers of the crop tops or whatever is trendy now and will stop trending later

Kanchan - Empire Apparel LLC (27:41)

Yes, yes, everybody needs to. Yes, it has

a lot of people like us, even we don't want to touch it. Because we are very mindful about the quantities we buy because the stores over here, they listen to what the consumers buy. They have reports they see in their system.

Giulia Bottaro (27:55)

Okay.

Kanchan - Empire Apparel LLC (28:05)

what's selling and what's not selling. And for us, when we are going to purchase and bring, say, clothing into the United States, whether it is regular clothing or pajamas, sleepwear, activewear, those are hot sellers that's always going to sell. So we also get feedback from them that, you know what? This doesn't sell. That doesn't sell. So we keep in mind that if for example, there's a factory that gets canceled on by a retailer that it's all white color pants. We are never going to touch that because

How am I going to bring three containers of white pants 100,000 units? Where are we going to sell it to? Even for the stores, they want variety. No matter if they have 1,000 stores or 2,000 stores, everybody wants variety because all of, they can't just sell white pants

Giulia Bottaro (28:41)

Yeah.

okay so what happens

to those containers of white pants when you reject them?

Kanchan - Empire Apparel LLC (28:53)

So they either still sit in the factory and deteriorate. Or I'm not sure what the factory does with them, but it is more than likely to go to waste. More than likely. which is why this problem continue to exist because especially with the fast fashion brands or brands producing such niche pieces that it's just not general enough.

Giulia Bottaro (29:01)

Right, okay.

Kanchan - Empire Apparel LLC (29:16)

and too risky for the factory to take a

unfortunately, there are even agreements of certain brands that if they sign a contract in the beginning saying that if by any chance, something goes wrong and then we can't take the merchandise because maybe you're late or pit issues or whatever, doesn't, basically it's not compliant by what they require. They have to burn the goods. Burn, yes. Certain brands are very particular about you have to burn. You can't resell. Now,

Giulia Bottaro (29:37)

burn. Okay.

Okay.

Kanchan - Empire Apparel LLC (29:43)

There are certain cases where we know those brands, so we speak to the stores and say that, know what, these are actually nice, but these are the rules. So if you can speak to them and then just use us as to facilitate to kind of bring it in for you, at least everybody's on the same page. Because it's also all connections, right?

Giulia Bottaro (29:57)

Yeah.

there was a big uproar a while ago because Burberry was burning the unused items So that's like the one brand that comes to mind, but obviously sounds like it's quite widespread and is so this is not changing Like are they still very happy to burn stuff?

Kanchan - Empire Apparel LLC (30:13)

this actually you know.

The big brands like where you mentioned Burberry. I'm not maximum but it's the big brands in general.

Giulia Bottaro (30:23)

Yeah.

Okay, so it's very widespread as a practice.

Kanchan - Empire Apparel LLC (30:29)

very widespread but amongst

the big brands amongst the really high-end brands say Burberry is a very high-end brand I would say there are even lower than Burberry but considered high-end okay we're also doing it active wear

Giulia Bottaro (30:41)

mm-hmm yeah but

so it's kind of like a secret because I like how much do people know about this because I remember like Burberry was a very big scandal a while ago yeah

Kanchan - Empire Apparel LLC (30:53)

It is, yes, yes, yes. You

know what? It's not really, I don't know to call it a secret because this is something that the factories, if for instance, if I were to be communicating with the factory, sometimes they will ask like, you know what? This is what we have, ABCD, you know, like they'll email list. And then I'll see, hey, my God, you have this. And like, this is really nice. And he's like, no, we can't sell it you because we have to burn it.

Giulia Bottaro (31:15)

but is it like knowledge

that leaves the supply chain or is it more something that is well known within the supply chain?

Kanchan - Empire Apparel LLC (31:20)

It's known, it's known for the big

brands. It's actually pretty known. Yes. Yeah. I don't know about the level of Burberry brands because I deal with the lower end brands that is produced for Walmart. Also for JC Penny, which is a nicer store, Target stores,

Giulia Bottaro (31:24)

Okay.

Mm-hmm.

we spoke about what is driving overconsumption, but then what is driving overproduction, which is the other side of the problem? Because you can't overconsume if there isn't overproduction.

Kanchan - Empire Apparel LLC (31:42)

OK.

I feel that overproduction in the garment industry is structural. You have to overproduce to prepare for a buffer.

Like I said for in case of damages keep in mind that in an apparel factory the mid-size or even big size apparel factory there are tens of thousands of workers who are working on an order for a store because stores don't place one piece it place hundred thousand units

And then in the hundred thousand units, it's that's a lot of detailings, Like sometimes it's a jacket and then there's somebody else that's doing only the zipper stitching. There's somebody else is only doing the pocketing. with that amount of units, you can imagine the amount of hands is being produced, which is why it is very natural for them to overproduce because for them it's like, you know what? We don't know the damage will go from will come from which hand. Maybe it's during the zipper stitching.

Giulia Bottaro (32:22)

Yeah.

Kanchan - Empire Apparel LLC (32:39)

during the pocketing we don't know so for everything they have to prepare a buffer so overproduction is structural in this industry that's the side of the manufacturers on another note though there are also brands we have dealt with who do their forecasting in a way that of course it's not perfect because

in fashion trends move really really fast right and some brands they over anticipate therefore they'll forecast that we think we can sell an X amount and then they place the orders for an X amount turns out they only sell half of it so sometimes it's a mistake in forecasting as well because again there is so many noise now with the social media with influences and whatnot that

Trends move really really fast. Every other brand is trying to one up the other. Previously leggings never had pockets. Now it has every possible pocket you can think about. Left, right, back, center, feet. I don't know where. It has everything. It moves really fast. So now they have to be careful. we see that certain brands are kind of pulling back from manufacturing so much of one style they start to be a bit more conservative.

Giulia Bottaro (33:33)

You

Okay.

Kanchan - Empire Apparel LLC (33:46)

Is it

still happening that it makes a mistake in the forecasting. Yeah, of course. That's the one that creates dead stock and then markdowns and then waste is from there because even even stores that purchase from us and they're convinced they can sell everything like this is a sellable item. Do they sell everything? No, but they sell a chunk, a big chunk of it. The margins are already back.

and some of them go on markdown If it goes on markdown, that means it's been in the store long enough. Imagine you are a customer who goes to the same store and you see the same thing all the time. What are you going to think?

Giulia Bottaro (34:17)

what happens

to the item? Oh, that also goes in the bin. OK. And also these costs that you companies plan for, maybe their forecasts are wrong or they plan for overproduction. So this is all money that is being spent for something that eventually is not going to be sold. So who pays the price of this?

Kanchan - Empire Apparel LLC (34:20)

waste. That's another thing. Yes. Yes.

So you know what, I can't say it's not going to be sold, it's something that they don't know it's going to sell or not. Yes, it's like a risk money, you can say, like they're paying for the risk, correct. But who pays for this money is eventually the, I would say the brands, because the ones who eventually places the order to the manufacturers is either a brand or a retailer that owns the brand.

Giulia Bottaro (34:48)

Yeah.

Kanchan - Empire Apparel LLC (35:02)

they are the ones who places the orders and all of these happens.

they do forecasting, right? And then they learn the market, they learn what the consumers are buying, not buying. They learn the trends. They have enough people in the team who are also like sort of specifically looking at the trends. What are people buying, not buying? What are they talking about now? But it's just the nature of fashion that things move so fast.

It just moves really, really fast. I feel that the one of the best things that brands are doing for themselves, not all of it, but at least some of it that I see is they don't place such big orders at one shot yet. So that they, so that they forecast if they think that they can sell a lot, as in they just place

Giulia Bottaro (35:39)

Mm-hmm.

Kanchan - Empire Apparel LLC (35:44)

some first and then they'll see the selling. Is it good? Are people liking the style but complaining about the price? you have to strategize in a way that sure you need to make your cost back as your business, right? So you've got to make your cost back, your margin back and then put it on a markdown. Does it sell on a markdown? If it still sells, then you know, okay, people are coming after the price and majority maybe found that expensive initially, but they get it on a markdown. They're happy with it. It sells out either it sells out.

or it still doesn't sell out. When it doesn't, then you'll know that it's a style issue or maybe it's a color issue. Like the stores also will get feedback. It's still a long way to go, I feel in fashion, but even post-COVID, these changes are already starting to be made because I hear from the manufacturers that, you know, we're not getting as much orders, things like that. they get it in limited quantities. They don't get it, so big, like at one go.

Giulia Bottaro (36:33)

Yeah.

So there's been some level of shift in mindset of how to do to approach manufacturing. It sounds like there is still quite a lot of risk for the factories themselves.

Kanchan - Empire Apparel LLC (36:38)

Yeah.

Yes, absolutely,

which is why they create buffers for themselves. there are certain factories, again, because they are all over the world, it's different cultures you work with. The brands also work with different cultures naturally because you play from all over the world.

what i've observed at least because i have to travel all over the world to buy as well right so of course i get exposed to the different cultures how they work how their speed is like china's always well known to be super fast they they're very good with details

Giulia Bottaro (37:14)

can you think of ways that the industry could reduce its impacts across the supply chain?

Kanchan - Empire Apparel LLC (37:19)

if we're going to talk about can a brand be truly sustainable and how can they reduce their impact basically I feel that can it come to a point that is zero impact it's like impossible I would say

Giulia Bottaro (37:30)

Yeah, absolutely,

yeah.

Kanchan - Empire Apparel LLC (37:31)

Yeah, but

it can become significantly more responsible. Yes, but

better systems the way that at least I'm hearing from manufacturers hey I'm not even getting as much orders anymore now the way they order is like half of the quantities they would do before I think that's already a very good start to it and that on its own because like the apparel industry is worldwide right so you can imagine if one brand is doing that already it's not just one like I'm pretty sure others are doing it as well maybe not everybody but post

Covid the quantities have really been chopped significantly yes. They go more for variety than for quantities. and what they start to do which is wonderful I think is they try to stick to one type of fabric

Giulia Bottaro (38:08)

Mm-hmm.

Kanchan - Empire Apparel LLC (38:20)

but they use it for many styles. I've been to Ethiopia personally and I created a whole line from somebody else's leftover fabric of activewear because I'm like this is so nice what's it doing? It's leftovers from a client of theirs in Europe I could think of so many things I can do with this and I just gave him ideas it turned out to be a big hit like

Giulia Bottaro (38:23)

Right.

Kanchan - Empire Apparel LLC (38:41)

It was really good and it did really well in Canada, US and it got picked up by Africa Sourcing Fashion Week as well. It did even further to other clients in Spain. It was really good.

I saw that they had polos men's polos like golf polos with the same fabric as the t-shirt with the same fabric as the other long sleeve t-shirt I'm like

It's so nice to see this, like they're using the fabric in all range of styles, to use up as much as they can as opposed to making 10 different things. so I see attempts being there. I mean, is it a hundred percent there? Obviously not really, but then getting better.

Giulia Bottaro (39:07)

Mm-hmm.

would you say that the circular economy is the solution?

Kanchan - Empire Apparel LLC (39:24)

I think it's a part of the solution but it's not just the only one of course because I feel that circularity in off price like what I do with the whole redistributing it definitely helps address the existing merchandise that people assume to be waste

we as the end consumers, we don't see it that way.

I feel that circularity helps but it is really not the only solution Because it helps in the sense for us that it gives the products a second chance. but we cannot resell our way out of overproduction forever. I think that the real solution would be a combination of smarter production redistribution like the whole circular system

educating customers, which the end consumers right now are also getting a lot more familiarized with the concept of sustainability. Yeah, And they understand that, when we say sustainability, it's not just a brand who's using fabrics which are sustainable and then slapping a tag on it. there's also sustainability in practice.

Giulia Bottaro (40:12)

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Kanchan - Empire Apparel LLC (40:25)

where you buy something that has a life to it not just you can wear it three times and then you throw it away

Giulia Bottaro (40:32)

absolutely everybody should change mindset and I suppose the idea is that if people don't buy as much then companies won't produce as much although we mustn't put all the fault on individuals for the sustainability challenge. Thank you so much for this really interesting chat. Is there anything else you would like to add?

Kanchan - Empire Apparel LLC (40:46)

Yeah, yeah.

a lot of people still need to ⁓ kind of make themselves aware that ⁓ sustainability and affordability can co-exist

because there are enough brands who take pride that they are using sustainable materials, but they tend to be expensive. my work in the off-price fashion world has shown that no sustainability and affordability can coexist because

we can create access for consumers to get to have affordable fashion. On the other hand, we can also help recover value for brands and you can preserve jobs for factories because as long as orders are there, jobs are going to continue there. And this whole redistribution type of model, it reduces waste.

sustainability doesn't always have to be expensive or exclusive and I feel that sometimes sustainability looks as simple as just making sure that every perfectly good product gets worn instead of wasted.

Giulia Bottaro (41:51)

Absolutely, yes. Yeah, and this also goes for a secondhand fashion, which is not quite your industry But you know, I think there is a place for both really

Giulia Bottaro (42:01)

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